The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

I guess it is now legal...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080515/ap_on_re_us/gay_marriage

California's top court overturns gay marriage ban
By LISA LEFF, Associated Press Writer

SAN FRANCISCO - In a monumental victory for the gay rights movement, the California Supreme Court overturned a voter-approved ban on gay marriage Thursday in a ruling that would allow same-sex couples in the nation's biggest state to tie the knot.

Domestic partnerships are not a good enough substitute for marriage, the justices ruled 4-3 in striking down the ban. Outside the courthouse, gay marriage supporters cried and cheered as the news spread. Jeanie Rizzo, one of the plaintiffs, called Pali Cooper, her partner of 19 years, and asked, "Pali, will you marry me?"

"This is a very historic day. This is just such freedom for us," Rizzo said. "This is a message that says all of us are entitled to human dignity." In the Castro, historically a center of the gay community in San Francisco, Tim Oviatt started crying while watching the news on TV.

"I've been waiting for this all my life," he said. "This is a life-affirming moment." The city of San Francisco, two dozen gay and lesbian couples and gay rights groups sued in March 2004 after the court halted the monthlong wedding march that took place when Mayor Gavin Newsom opened the doors of City Hall to same-sex marriages. "Today the California Supreme Court took a giant leap to ensure that everybody — not just in the state of California, but throughout the country — will have equal treatment under the law," said City Attorney Dennis Herrera, who argued the case for San Francisco.

The challenge for gay rights advocates, however, is not over. A coalition of religious and social conservative groups is attempting to put a measure on the November ballot that would enshrine laws banning gay marriage in the state constitution. The Secretary of State is expected to rule by the end of June whether the sponsors gathered enough signatures to qualify the marriage amendment, similar to ones enacted in 26 other states.

If voters pass the measure in November, it would trump the court's decision. California already offers same-sex couples who register as domestic partners the same legal rights and responsibilities as married spouses, including the right to divorce and to sue for child support.

But, "Our state now recognizes that an individual's capacity to establish a loving and long-term committed relationship with another person and responsibly to care for and raise children does not depend upon the individual's sexual orientation," Chief Justice Ron George wrote for the court's majority, which also included Justices Joyce Kennard, Kathryn Werdegar and Carlos Moreno.

In a dissenting opinion, Justice Marvin Baxter agreed with many arguments of the majority but said the court overstepped its authority. Changes to marriage laws should be decided by the voters, Baxter wrote. Justices Ming Chin and Carol Corrigan also dissented. The conservative Alliance Defense Fund says it plans to ask the justices for a stay of their decision until after the fall election, said Glen Lavey, senior counsel for the group.

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, who has twice vetoed legislation that would've granted marriage rights to same-sex couples, said in a news release that he respected the court's decision and "will not support an amendment to the constitution that would overturn this state Supreme Court ruling."

Does that mean people are happily married.....

Technically all it means is the law banning gay marriage has been stricken.  So the issue is still open and there are no provisions for the State to marry same-sex couples. So it's in limbo...

I don't care who you marry.  I have yet to hear a logical argument against gay marriage:

1) Clearly marriage is no meant to "populate the earth" as the Bible says, since most couples use birth control.  And what of couples that can not procreate - does that mean they can not get married?

2) The "sanctity of marriage" argument is laughable, given the 50+% divorce rate.  Far be it for a few gays to ruin our sacred, holy, and eternal unions that we heterosexuals always uphold.

3) "Family values" is the same basic argument.  Even if you want to argue gay marriage is against family values... We split up families all the time, that's not a family value.  And what about wife beaters, alcoholics, drug users, or just plain old deadbeats... should we forbid these people form marrying because they do not have good family values?  Or is it OK so long as they aren't gay?

4) The benefits argument also falls short:  would you marry another man for health insurance?  Most people wouldn't.  Plus, this trick is still available to man-woman relationships, so the same sex ban doesn't really remedy the problem.   Ancillary issues about inheritance, visitation,  and family choice (pull the plug doc) are really non-issues and a gay man can contractual allow his partner most of these rights anyway.  So denying them marriage on that basis is just petty.
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The issue comes down to either a religious argument (it's a sin!) or a personal disgust of gay marriage (or to be more PC "I just think it's wrong"), neither of which is a compelling argument nor a logical basis for a law.   It comes down to tradition and inertia at this point.  By the time my son has children I'm guessing gay marriage is no big deal.  I really don't see a reason why it's a big deal now (but what if people want top marry their Gold Fish next?  Not that it's the same... but so what if htey do?).

/ my $1.05

Gay marriage?

Haven't gays suffered enough?

There is no argument against gay marriage.

You know, if we eliminated all of the crazy tax/property laws that pertain to marriage, there would be no argument on who marries who?  

Government vies for power over your property and religion uses government to enforce moral law.  Eliminate the control and the debate is over.  Why should it be government's business anyhow?

Everyone could just be happy!  

You could even marry your golden retriever or your lawnmower if you wanted to.

Property would simply pass to the next living relative or existing spouse.  It's already been taxed so why should the government have any claim on it.  

Funny how they use stupid Conservatives and goofy Liberals  to fuel this debate about nothing more than larceny.

Thieves!

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Originally posted by RecycleMichael

Gay marriage?

Haven't gays suffered enough?

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That was damn funny....

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Originally posted by Gaspar

You know, if we eliminated all of the crazy tax/property laws that pertain to marriage, there would be no argument on who marries who?  

Government vies for power over your property and religion uses government to enforce moral law.  Eliminate the control and the debate is over.  Why should it be government's business anyhow?

Everyone could just be happy!  

You could even marry your golden retriever or your lawnmower if you wanted to.

Property would simply pass to the next living relative or existing spouse.  It's already been taxed so why should the government have any claim on it.  

Funny how they use stupid Conservatives and goofy Liberals  to fuel this debate about nothing more than larceny.

Thieves!

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It's more than property laws at issue, but I do think property is a big part of the debate; few of the anti-gay marriage folks understand how not being able to marry someone affects the distribution of property at death.  I know a lot of folks who were really anti-gay marriage until they heard the property issue.

Beyond property, it gets into things like adoption, the right to make medical decisions, and the right to file tax returns jointly.

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Originally posted by Gold

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Originally posted by Gaspar

You know, if we eliminated all of the crazy tax/property laws that pertain to marriage, there would be no argument on who marries who?  

Government vies for power over your property and religion uses government to enforce moral law.  Eliminate the control and the debate is over.  Why should it be government's business anyhow?

Everyone could just be happy!  

You could even marry your golden retriever or your lawnmower if you wanted to.

Property would simply pass to the next living relative or existing spouse.  It's already been taxed so why should the government have any claim on it.  

Funny how they use stupid Conservatives and goofy Liberals  to fuel this debate about nothing more than larceny.

Thieves!

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It's more than property laws at issue, but I do think property is a big part of the debate; few of the anti-gay marriage folks understand how not being able to marry someone affects the distribution of property at death.  I know a lot of folks who were really anti-gay marriage until they heard the property issue.

Beyond property, it gets into things like adoption, the right to make medical decisions, and the right to file tax returns jointly.

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Yup. And the so-called family values crowd wants to prevent homosexuals from using the very thing -- marriage -- that would promote those family values and household stability.

Speaking of family values...

Of the gay people I know, I've noticed a striking trend.  It's amazing how many gay people end up taking care of their aging parents and grandparents....instead of their straight siblings (who are, presumably, too busy with kids and soccer tournaments, etc).

I would love to see a study on this topic.  I bet that the percent of gay people who take care of their family members is huge.  (Not counting, of course, those whose parents disown them for being gay.) (Funny that the people who talk about "family values" a lot tend to do stuff like that...)

Good lord. What an abomination.

I mean seriously..who would want to marry a Californian?

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Originally posted by wavoka

Good lord. What an abomination.

I mean seriously..who would want to marry a Californian?

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Can Californians marry outside of their own?  If so, will the children be retarded too?

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Originally posted by PonderInc

Speaking of family values...

Of the gay people I know, I've noticed a striking trend.  It's amazing how many gay people end up taking care of their aging parents and grandparents....instead of their straight siblings (who are, presumably, too busy with kids and soccer tournaments, etc).

I would love to see a study on this topic.  I bet that the percent of gay people who take care of their family members is huge.  (Not counting, of course, those whose parents disown them for being gay.) (Funny that the people who talk about "family values" a lot tend to do stuff like that...)

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Well I am not taking care of my parents. I was the first child, they were poor when they had me and I got nothing, and they made all their mistakes on me lol. Now my youngest brother, bout 19 years younger than me, he was spoiled to dickens. Got to travel more, had help with college, lived at home years longer, etc. I and my younger sisters have voted that he gets to take care of my parents. He is straight btw, but still has to take care of the parents lol.

However, I may be chipping in to put my sisters kids through college. She breeds like a rabbit and keeps popping the things out. They live outside Tulsa county so can't qualify for the free TCC tuition, and they are very smart kids and doing exceptionally well in school. I dont know how many kids she has now, but I will make danged sure they all are able to do the college thing.  

As for getting married.... I can't even find a decent date in this town.

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Originally posted by TheArtist


As for getting married.... I can't even find a decent date in this town.

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LOL. Give it time. I finally found mine. [:)]

Artist you work too hard and think too much!

The voters hope to overturn this in November. Gay marriage is not only wrong and not needed but it will open the door to anything goes in the future. A man can marry his brother, sister or have 3 wives or marry his dog it'll be anything goes. I'm against gay marriage.

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Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Technically all it means is the law banning gay marriage has been stricken.  So the issue is still open and there are no provisions for the State to marry same-sex couples. So it's in limbo...

I don't care who you marry.  I have yet to hear a logical argument against gay marriage:

1) Clearly marriage is no meant to "populate the earth" as the Bible says, since most couples use birth control.  And what of couples that can not procreate - does that mean they can not get married?

2) The "sanctity of marriage" argument is laughable, given the 50+% divorce rate.  Far be it for a few gays to ruin our sacred, holy, and eternal unions that we heterosexuals always uphold.

3) "Family values" is the same basic argument.  Even if you want to argue gay marriage is against family values... We split up families all the time, that's not a family value.  And what about wife beaters, alcoholics, drug users, or just plain old deadbeats... should we forbid these people form marrying because they do not have good family values?  Or is it OK so long as they aren't gay?

4) The benefits argument also falls short:  would you marry another man for health insurance?  Most people wouldn't.  Plus, this trick is still available to man-woman relationships, so the same sex ban doesn't really remedy the problem.   Ancillary issues about inheritance, visitation,  and family choice (pull the plug doc) are really non-issues and a gay man can contractual allow his partner most of these rights anyway.  So denying them marriage on that basis is just petty.
- - -

The issue comes down to either a religious argument (it's a sin!) or a personal disgust of gay marriage (or to be more PC "I just think it's wrong"), neither of which is a compelling argument nor a logical basis for a law.   It comes down to tradition and inertia at this point.  By the time my son has children I'm guessing gay marriage is no big deal.  I really don't see a reason why it's a big deal now (but what if people want top marry their Gold Fish next?  Not that it's the same... but so what if htey do?).

/ my $1.05

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very well said.  In a free society,  its really not anyones business who someone else marries. simplistically speaking.

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Originally posted by Gaspar

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Originally posted by wavoka

Good lord. What an abomination.

I mean seriously..who would want to marry a Californian?

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Can Californians marry outside of their own?  If so, will the children be retarded too?

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No, just very shallow individuals with no idea that there is a real world with real people outside the state of California.

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Originally posted by sauerkraut

The voters hope to overturn this in November. Gay marriage is not only wrong and not needed but it will open the door to anything goes in the future. A man can marry his brother, sister or have 3 wives or marry his dog it'll be anything goes. I'm against gay marriage.

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A man can marry his dog? What does sauerkraut know about dogs?

I always love the comparison between same sex marriage and allowing people to marry their dogs.  

On the bright side, I know a lot of guys who seem to love their dogs at least as much as their wives.  If people really could marry their dogs, I bet the divorce rate would go down!

After people start marrying their dogs, I think a lot of guys are going to want to marry their cars.  They sure seem to spend enough time caressing and fondling them out in their driveways.  All that washing and waxing on the weekend?  Just an excuse to grop the grills!  You'll notice that the less happily married the fellow, the more time he spends with his cars. (I mean, really!  Didn't you just wash and wax that thing last weekend?)

"She was a hot machine, she kept her motor clean..."

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Originally posted by TheArtist
As for getting married.... I can't even find a decent date in this town.

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No crap.

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Originally posted by sauerkraut

The voters hope to overturn this in November. Gay marriage is not only wrong and not needed but it will open the door to anything goes in the future. A man can marry his brother, sister or have 3 wives or marry his dog it'll be anything goes. I'm against gay marriage.

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So glad you're a dying breed.

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Originally posted by sauerkraut

The voters hope to overturn this in November. Gay marriage is not only wrong and not needed but it will open the door to anything goes in the future. A man can marry his brother, sister or have 3 wives or marry his dog it'll be anything goes. I'm against gay marriage.

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Who exactly is it that is arguing for incest or bestiality? Or is this just some sick fantasy of yours, kept at bay by the ban on gay marriage?

And just because I'm on the topic, who on earth are you to say what somebody else needs? Is it the oh so common "I've got mine so f*** everybody else" mentality in action or what?

I don't know why I'm asking..these things never end well, except amongst young people who haven't been indoctrinated by their so-called Church. (any church that preaches intolerance is no church at all in my book)

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Originally posted by deinstein

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Originally posted by TheArtist
As for getting married.... I can't even find a decent date in this town.

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No crap.

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Oh, a decent person to date is out there, it's just a matter of a person having standards and being just as willing to live up to them.

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Originally posted by PonderInc

I always love the comparison between same sex marriage and allowing people to marry their dogs.  

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Oh I know!  Once they allowed marriage between men and women, look what happened!  Men wanted to marry men and women wanted to marry women.  Maybe they should just ban marriage for everyone then no one would want to marry anyone inappropriate. [:D]

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Originally posted by mr.jaynes

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Originally posted by deinstein

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Originally posted by TheArtist
As for getting married.... I can't even find a decent date in this town.

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No crap.

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Oh, a decent person to date is out there, it's just a matter of a person having standards and being just as willing to live up to them.

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I like to think I do that lol. The trick is finding someone else out there that can do that.

Oh and thanks TU Robby. Just what I need some 20 something who has someone, telling me a 40 something who has never had anyone, to be patient lol. Niiiice lol.

However... I do have 2 kitties. But its just not the same. Conversations are so one sided, they never seem to really get me and understand what I go through when I tell them about my day. They tend to stay out all night doing who knows what and running around with who knows who. They rarely pull their own weight. I am constantly picking up after them. Yet its my income that pays the bills. And then they even have the nerve to get picky about what they eat. While they are out playing in the evenings, after having laid around like bums all day, I usually end up sitting at home each night after a hard days work, on the couch, nursing a bout of self-pity with a gallon of chocolate ice cream, watching old movies... alone...

Ok, well perhaps it is like a real relationship. lol

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Originally posted by TheArtist

...nursing a bout of self-pity with a gallon of chocolate ice cream...

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And you are still able to maintain that figure? I eat a Twix bar and gain 15 pounds the next day. [:P]

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Originally posted by tulsa1603

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Originally posted by PonderInc

I always love the comparison between same sex marriage and allowing people to marry their dogs.  

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Oh I know!  Once they allowed marriage between men and women, look what happened!  Men wanted to marry men and women wanted to marry women.  Maybe they should just ban marriage for everyone then no one would want to marry anyone inappropriate. [:D]

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I'm intrigued by your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Just don't tell my wife.

My wife and I were happy for thirty years. Then we met.

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Originally posted by RecycleMichael

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Originally posted by sauerkraut

The voters hope to overturn this in November. Gay marriage is not only wrong and not needed but it will open the door to anything goes in the future. A man can marry his brother, sister or have 3 wives or marry his dog it'll be anything goes. I'm against gay marriage.

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A man can marry his dog? What does sauerkraut know about dogs?

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Not to get off topic but you have never ate a hot dog if it's not smothered in Sauerkraut. A hot dog is not a hot dog without Sauerkraut... Sauerkraut goes with many foods and it's darn healthy too.[:)]

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Originally posted by TheArtist

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Originally posted by mr.jaynes

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Originally posted by deinstein

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Originally posted by TheArtist
As for getting married.... I can't even find a decent date in this town.

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No crap.

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Oh, a decent person to date is out there, it's just a matter of a person having standards and being just as willing to live up to them.

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I like to think I do that lol. The trick is finding someone else out there that can do that.

Oh and thanks TU Robby. Just what I need some 20 something who has someone, telling me a 40 something who has never had anyone, to be patient lol. Niiiice lol.

However... I do have 2 kitties. But its just not the same. Conversations are so one sided, they never seem to really get me and understand what I go through when I tell them about my day. They tend to stay out all night doing who knows what and running around with who knows who. They rarely pull their own weight. I am constantly picking up after them. Yet its my income that pays the bills. And then they even have the nerve to get picky about what they eat. While they are out playing in the evenings, after having laid around like bums all day, I usually end up sitting at home each night after a hard days work, on the couch, nursing a bout of self-pity with a gallon of chocolate ice cream, watching old movies... alone...

Ok, well perhaps it is like a real relationship. lol

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My thing is-and this may help you, Artist (I like to think so, anyway)-is that I can look around at the dating scene in Tulsa, and I do find it lacking in quality people, but they are out there. i know because I've seen some quality people since returning here. They're taken, of course, by other quality people, but if they weren't, I'd vie for them.

As for having standards, I'm not perfect and thus I do not seek perfection. But I do like some reciprocity. If they require respect and honesty from me, I'm going to require that I get it back to me.

You're a cat-fancier too, eh?  

It's true the (straight) dating scene in Tulsa for a LTR is not good. However for a one night stand with a girl Tulsa is not bad. Tulsa seems to have alot of one night stands and few people who are interested in long term commitments. or so it seems to me.[B)]

Sounds like you've been hanging out at Elephant Run...

quote:

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Originally posted by sauerkraut

Gay marriage is not only wrong and not needed but it will open the door to anything goes in the future. A man can marry his brother, sister or have 3 wives or marry his dog it'll be anything goes. I'm against gay marriage.

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Do you have any interest in defending your position?

1) Why is it wrong?

2) Why do you think it will enable incests, bestiality, or polygamy (technically polygamy is legal, bigamy is not)?    

And if it did, why is that wrong?

3) Why is it not needed?
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I would just like to try to understand why you have the opinion that you do.  If it is purely religious conviction or you just don't like gay people that will probably be the end of the discussion (clearly not things I can influence nor that are influential on me).  But if there is a base reason I'd be curious to see what it is.

IMO being gay just isn't right. I don't think there is anything natural about it.  But, this is just my personal opinion.  If someone things that being gay is right for them, then to each their own (as long as I don't have to see two guys making out [xx(] ).  As far as gay marraige, I think the government intrudes on this rite too much as it is.  Just because I don't think that being gay is right, doesn't give me the right to force that belief on others.  Just as because I think the entire human race should bow down and except me as their rightful owner, doesn't make it right that I will force them to when I build my army.  Uh, I think I just said too much....

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Originally posted by custosnox

IMO being gay just isn't right. I don't think there is anything natural about it.  But, this is just my personal opinion.  If someone things that being gay is right for them, then to each their own (as long as I don't have to see two guys making out [xx(] ).  As far as gay marraige, I think the government intrudes on this rite too much as it is.  Just because I don't think that being gay is right, doesn't give me the right to force that belief on others.  Just as because I think the entire human race should bow down and except me as their rightful owner, doesn't make it right that I will force them to when I build my army.  Uh, I think I just said too much....

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Love who you love.

I wonder why all the Christians who are so oppesed to gay marriage are not up in arms when a divorcee remarries. Afterall, this is considered adultry for a divorced woman while her first husband is still alive. I believe the grandmaster of hate, Paul, put adultry and homosexuality in the same boat.

As for destroying the sanctity of marriage: the conservatives need to look no futher then their beloved Rush Limbaugh. Married and divorced 3 times, I believe.

I love my lesbian daughter and I would never disown or disavow her because of some wandering nomad's writings in an Middle Eastern desert some 4000 years ago.

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Originally posted by movingtotulsa

 I love my lesbian daughter and I would never disown or disavow her because of some wandering nomad's writings in an Middle Eastern desert some 4000 years ago.

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My late but no less beloved and favorite uncle was gay, and I adored him no matter who he was, and I in turn was his favorite among my siblings and cousins. And the fact that he was gay never mattered to me for one moment. I still get all misty-eyed even now when I think of him, but I also find myself celebrating his life too. It is due to my ties with him that I favor gay rights as well as doing what I can in the fight against AIDS (the complications of which he'd-I dare say tragically- died from years ago).

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Originally posted by movingtotulsa

I wonder why all the Christians who are so oppesed to gay marriage are not up in arms when a divorcee remarries. Afterall, this is considered adultry for a divorced woman while her first husband is still alive. I believe the grandmaster of hate, Paul, put adultry and homosexuality in the same boat.

As for destroying the sanctity of marriage: the conservatives need to look no futher then their beloved Rush Limbaugh. Married and divorced 3 times, I believe.

I love my lesbian daughter and I would never disown or disavow her because of some wandering nomad's writings in an Middle Eastern desert some 4000 years ago.

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I understand your feelings. But I think some humility, patience, thoughfulness, listening and understanding on both sides of the issue would go a long way.

Just as you love and cherish your daugher, many people love and cherish their religion and its scriptures as a way of understanding, and shared community with others. I think people basically want to be good and want what is good, its just their understandings of how to go about those things that may not be perfect. That includes understanding the Bible and others,,,including some wandering nomad from thousands of years ago.

Nobody is perfect but I find if I truly want people to learn from me, its best not to push them away. If I am a "good" person and I push someone away,,, from whom will they then learn? I also recognize that I am not perfect and have much to learn and always try to embrace learning and growing, though at times it can be uncomfortable and disconcerting,,, when I face those feelings and I discover some deeper meaning or truth the reward is worth it. So I try to embrace them. By doing so I show others how to do so as well. Hopefully, in such a way, through the better angels in all of us we can come to some clearer understanding that alone we could not achieve.

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Originally posted by custosnox

(as long as I don't have to see two guys making out [xx(] ).

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As a heterosexual, I'm no more interested in watching a man and woman make out than two men. [:P]

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Originally posted by nathanm

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Originally posted by custosnox

(as long as I don't have to see two guys making out [xx(] ).

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As a heterosexual, I'm no more interested in watching a man and woman make out than two men. [:P]

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But a lot of heterosexual men like to see two women making out. Go figure.

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Originally posted by rwarn17588

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Originally posted by nathanm

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Originally posted by custosnox

(as long as I don't have to see two guys making out [xx(] ).

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As a heterosexual, I'm no more interested in watching a man and woman make out than two men. [:P]

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But a lot of heterosexual men like to see two women making out. Go figure.

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My theory is, men want to be between them, or something along those lines. Still trying to decide.

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Originally posted by rwarn17588


But a lot of heterosexual men like to see two women making out. Go figure.

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I considered including a quip along those lines, but realized that I don't really care to see that, either. I guess I just don't particularly enjoy (nor am I offended by, as I do have control over where I cast my gaze) watching people of any gender or combination of genders engage in such activity.