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Title: bicycle courtesy and the new bike hiway Post by: waterboy on June 29, 2008, 12:42:52 pm Ed, could you remind your fellow bikers that runners are at risk versus bikers since we have no way of knowing you're coming up from behind unless you speak, ring a chime or grunt? These new wide asphalt mini freeways were originally called "running paths" and the signs for "yield to pedestrians" still are in place.
I'm not talking about the pink balloon tired bikes that generally move slowly and are driven by people we know are unaware of rules of the road. I'm talking the helmeted, sunglassed, spandex dressed speedsters that know better but are too focussed to let me know they're approaching. Several times this week I've been about to move to one side or the other to avoid a dog, a child or just exit and been startled by a 20mph tough guy who can't think 5 feet in front of himself. My count is about 2 riders out of 10 announce themselves. And Mr. K if you're reading this...please leave the west side paths alone. Please. Unless you add a crushed rock side path to them. They are comforting in their small town feel. Title: bicycle courtesy and the new bike hiway Post by: Breadburner on June 29, 2008, 01:22:42 pm If you runners knew your right from your left it would work....And get the ipods out of your ears.....
Title: bicycle courtesy and the new bike hiway Post by: Ed W on June 29, 2008, 01:37:19 pm Trail conflicts are a constant problem and they're worse when it's crowded. The River Park trail has a recommended speed limit of 10mph. Up around the cafe, even that may be too fast. My son - a kid with only 2 speeds, stopped, and as fast as he can go - recognized that the River Park trail isn't meant for speed. If he could figure that out at 12 or 13, why do so many adults have problems with the concept? Given a mild tail wind, a reasonably fit cyclist can cruise at 20-25 mph, far too fast for the River Trail, but probably safe enough on a less crowded one like the Osage Prairie.
I haven't been along the River Park trail for quite a while, so much of my information is out of date. But I do recall that the widening and improvements were intended to have separate trails for pedestrians and cyclists. Is that the case now? Here's the problem with overtaking pedestrians. First, if you yell, "On your left!" which is the usual way of indicating you're about to overtake and pass, some pedestrians will turn to their left in order to look back at you. They step directly into your intended path. A simple bell may be a better choice, unless like my son again, the pedestrian is wearing headphones at ear drum shattering volumes. He simply won't hear you. And I won't go off on a diatribe about in-line skaters, peds on cellphones, or those with dogs roaming about on 30 foot leashes. From my point of view, when there are lots of pedestrians on the trail, leave it to them. The safest thing for a cyclist is to ride at pedestrian speed (and who wants to do that?) or go out on the road where it's safer and faster. In Tulsa, it's perfectly legal for a cyclist to ignore the parallel trail and ride on the street. It's safer too since cyclists and motor vehicle traffic operate under the same rules, while multi-use paths are far more chaotic. We should have another BAG meeting soon. And there's a good chance Patrick will see this too. I'll bring it up in the meeting. Title: bicycle courtesy and the new bike hiway Post by: waterboy on June 29, 2008, 05:00:43 pm Thanks. Its quite true that I see a lot of runners and walkers with Ipods and they are clueless. Nothing worse than a family walking their dogs and children taking up the entire width and looking at you like you're going against traffic on a one way street. Women walking in groups seem oblivious too.
I run from the 11th & Riverside to Pedestrian bridge area. Noticed less of a problem on a bike ride from PSO to 71st below Turkey mtn. Now thats a nice ride (as long as you ignore the treatment plant). Title: bicycle courtesy and the new bike hiway Post by: Conan71 on June 29, 2008, 05:05:13 pm I was expecting one trail would be marked for runners and one for bikes when I was on the new path between 31st & 21st. I kept looking for a sign so runners wouldn't flip me off and never saw one. I agree people walking three or four dogs or families riding three abreast is a hazard. Dogs not on a leash is a real no-no.
Title: bicycle courtesy and the new bike hiway Post by: Ed W on June 29, 2008, 05:19:12 pm I don't ride for recreation very often. Mostly, it's commuting back and forth to work, saving money for the family and trying to send less of it to people who hate Americans. One of the best kept secrets of regular commuting on a bicycle is that it's safer and easier than nearly any other cycling activity. I see the same motorists day after day, and they come to expect a cyclist or two along the route. There are no paths or trails, yet I make it to work without incident. It can become so routine that it's boring.
There's a nice piece on the Community Cycling Project over on Urban Tulsa Weekly: http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A23678 The focus of the CCP is to get people onto bikes in order to increase their range of job opportunities. We've had some successes and some failures, but we'll keep at it. Title: bicycle courtesy and the new bike hiway Post by: dax on June 29, 2008, 07:03:39 pm I ride nearly every day 11th to 71st at different times of day. Most of the time the trail is very lightly used. Biker etiquette is to defer to all others. I'm the guy who wears the pollen mask. If I come upon a pair of riders to go around I make a noise with my gears that they hear, and say on your left having slowed down. There is plenty of open trail to open up the speed. The newspaper indicated that bikers have the new asphalt nearer the street. I assume the millions spent will include signs to that effect. I regret the blacktop (more pavement than park"). I resent the cavalier way the park has been closed to install the atrocity. I question the word "charity" in regard to Mr.K's contribution. Charity is something given the needy. I use the trail more than any and needed this cross between Berliner strasse and Disneyland NOT. You gravel runners I guess will just have to eat cake. And where gravel runners had kept the grass edged, now it will take a paid person to edge that nifty brick trim on the asphalt. Thank you allowing me to grouse.
Title: bicycle courtesy and the new bike hiway Post by: Ed W on June 29, 2008, 07:36:26 pm According to the Tulsa Area Triathletes list, there will be a chat section south of 31st extending to 71st. Some of the runners prefer it saying that it's easier on their knees than the less forgiving asphalt.
Title: bicycle courtesy and the new bike hiway Post by: dax on June 29, 2008, 08:49:51 pm Perhaps Der Kaiser will provide limo service for the poor slobs who had always previously enjoyed their gravel trail north of 31st Street. Maybe at least they can eat Bavarian Kirch Torte. What we need now is a great humanitarian and philanthropic charity to pony up the dough for edging the Black Asphalt Road. Or are taxpayers going to have to shoulder that burden. Danke schoen, Herr Kaiser, FUR NICHTS!
Title: bicycle courtesy and the new bike hiway Post by: RecycleMichael on June 29, 2008, 08:56:49 pm I was in Madison, Wisconsin last week and bikes were everywhere. Thousands of bikes...everywhere...
I noticed that many of the bikes had baskets and racks and special-made backpacks. People actually carried quite a bit of stuff with them while they road. Textbooks, groceries, laptops, all carried while they bike. I never see anyone in Tulsa ever carry anything with them while they bike. There is that one guy who pulls a trailer, but I don't think he is what I would call utilitarian is his method. Title: bicycle courtesy and the new bike hiway Post by: bacjz00 on June 29, 2008, 09:23:57 pm quote: Madison is home to one of the top 10 largest public universities in the US. Their enrollment tops 40,000. I would be more surprised if you DIDN'T see lots of bicycles there. Don't even get me started on higher-ed in Tulsa. But let's just say we're about as POLAR opposite from Madison when it comes to the bike-riding demographic. Title: bicycle courtesy and the new bike hiway Post by: tulsarufflebutt on June 30, 2008, 03:30:25 am quote: Madison, WI doesn't export the bike culture like Portland, OR. (http://"http://bikeportland.org/2008/06/24/streetfilms-video-captures-the-magic-of-sunday-parkways") Title: bicycle courtesy and the new bike hiway Post by: TulsaSue on June 30, 2008, 08:02:46 am I keep planning to make tee-shirts for my family that have the "Yield to Peds" sign on front and back to remind the bikers. They come up so fast and some don't even bother to warn people that they are coming. They don't slow down, and it's hard to get out of the way fast enough.
Title: bicycle courtesy and the new bike hiway Post by: tulsarufflebutt on June 30, 2008, 09:02:17 am quote: That's the reason why bikes should be on Riverside, with traffic, NOT mixing in with peds. Title: bicycle courtesy and the new bike hiway Post by: cannon_fodder on June 30, 2008, 09:09:00 am The problem with the "go to the streets" concept is that Riverside is a very busy, very fast, and winding commuter road. There is not room for bikers on the side of the road, and traffic is too heavy to allow a 20mph biker to shut down a lane during much of the day. It would be (is not) safe for the biker and causes traffic problems (which is not safe for the drivers).
I don't mind serious bikers using roadways. The ones who are MOVING and understand the rules of biking on the road (you are a vehicle and must follow the laws like any other). But I don't want to cause a situation where my leisure rides with my boy are forced off the trails. And on Riverside, even seasoned riders will cause troubles because of the thoroughfare nature of that stretch of road. The entire problem can be solved by using common trail courtesy. "On the left" is standard language and is required on many organized events. Walker/runners also need to stay to the right and be alert - they have the right of way but SHARE the path. Dog walkers need to realize the harm a dog can cause to all others and restrain the animal accordingly (generally I make my dog SIT when a group of runners/bikers passes by. It puts them at ease, keeps my dog safe, and reinforces my authoritay' over my animal). If we can't share a 10' wide trail, there is little hope. Title: bicycle courtesy and the new bike hiway Post by: tulsarufflebutt on June 30, 2008, 11:15:39 am quote: Sic him, C-Dog! Title: bicycle courtesy and the new bike hiway Post by: ARGUS on June 30, 2008, 12:21:57 pm Welcome new member Dax.
the "trail" is for all. Simple signage in re: to simple trail etiquette may not be a bad idea. Perhaps some "road markings" on the surface of the trail; thus minimizing sign poles. Any city park,and one as popular as The River Parks is where several different "types" of citizens are exposed to each other and "rules of the Trail" are possibly not known to infrequent users. I think it would be easy to conclude that some just leave their common sense (and courtesy) at home and regard the whole park as owned by them alone; which we all know is not the case. All in all River Parks is a great asset to Tulsa. Its not what has Tulsa done for you; but what have you done for Tulsa? Go be nice to your fellow park goer and enjoy the asset. Title: bicycle courtesy and the new bike hiway Post by: Gaspar on June 30, 2008, 01:30:13 pm quote: When I was a kid, riding your bike on a sidewalk or running path was illegal. When I was a little older they made the trail on riverside paved for bikes and gravel for runners. Now they have to share the space. That's kind of like cars and bikes sharing the road. The slower or smaller vehicle is always at danger. My solution. . . since it's not possible for runners to move at the same speed as cyclists, they should simply increase their mass to make up for the difference. Bikers will slow down and become more cautious if the road is filled with a bunch of huge joggers. Or if exercise is the goal for these runners, they could simply twirl nunchucks or a baton while running. This too will slow the careless cyclist. Just some thoughts. Title: bicycle courtesy and the new bike hiway Post by: nathanm on June 30, 2008, 02:20:50 pm quote: What CF said. Walkers/runners seem to have a much harder time sharing the trail than bikers. Bikers usually keep right and usually respond to "on your left." Walkers like to take up 3/4ths of the trail and often act put out if they have to allow some space for someone to pass. Worse, though, are the people who treat the path like their living room, and just wander all over it whereever they like. Or the fellow who was walking left the other day. Almost everybody grasps the concept of keeping to the right side of the trail, so other than the one idiot, it's a problem of hogging the trail, not anything else. I pretty regularly find that I have to hit the grass if I want to get by a couple of people walking beside each other, even after a good loud "on your left." I should be better about it, though. If it's just one or two folks walking or running along the right side of the trail who aren't wandering all over the thing, I'll often forgo the announcement of my presence. Title: bicycle courtesy and the new bike hiway Post by: PonderInc on June 30, 2008, 04:33:56 pm quote: I used my bike for transportation instead of a car for about 10 years in Tulsa. My co-workers used to greet me with: "Saw you on your bike today." Or: "Sorry I almost ran over you this morning....I didn't know it was you!" (As if they wouldn't want to kill a cyclist they actually knew!) For six months I was in between cars, and just didn't bother buying a new car b/c I could bike everywhere. (Lived close to downtown, work, the gym, the river, restaurants on Cherry St and Brookside, and the grocery store, etc.) I had a road bike without panniers or a basket, so I used a backpack to carry my stuff. On occasion, I'd buy more groceries than would fit in my backpack. Somewhere there's a picture of me with plastic grocery sacks tied to the outside of my backpack, and cereal boxes and other items stuffed down my jacket! If I'd crashed, there would have been salsa all over the road! Title: bicycle courtesy and the new bike hiway Post by: Ed W on June 30, 2008, 05:14:34 pm quote: I think we've had this discussion before, but I'm well into middle age and I tend to repeat myself. This causes my children to roll their eyes a lot. I kinda enjoy that. Pick any arterial street in Tulsa, and you'll find that the lanes are seldom more than 12 feet wide. The minimum width necessary to safely share side-by-side with a motor vehicle is 14 feet. Very few lanes are that wide. So it would be possible to say that any arterial is too narrow for a bicyclist in heavy traffic. Of course, I'd never say that. I know, I know, it's a difficult concept to embrace but when a cyclist takes the lane by riding assertively, he enhances his safety. Assertively, in this case, means riding in the right hand tire track with 1/3 of the lane to his right and 2/3 to the left. Overtaking traffic will slow and go around him when it's safe to do so. But what about the 'considerate' cyclist who rides all the way over on the right, hugging the fog line in order to let motorists pass more easily? Overtaking traffic hardly slows down and often passes within inches of his elbow. He's convinced that all motorists are out to kill him. Heavy traffic offers a perverse benefit to an assertive cyclist. By taking the lane he gains some control of the traffic as it flows around him. His lane position forces motorists to wait until it's safe to pass, and heavy traffic causes them to slow more readily. When there are fewer motor vehicles on the road, speeds remain higher and that is a greater danger to a cyclist. Don't misunderstand me. There's a lot of give and take on the roads and an experienced cyclist knows this. But safety always trumps convenience for any of us regardless of our mode of travel. Brian and I will probably have something on trail etiquette over on the TAOBIKE blog before long, and I may do something on CycleDog also. I've been kicking around an idea - Things Motorists Should Know About Cyclists: Or why the hell to they do that? - because there are so many misconceptions and misunderstandings about safe bicycling operation. It's a long list. Title: bicycle courtesy and the new bike hiway Post by: PonderInc on June 30, 2008, 05:21:50 pm In some cities where there are wide pedestrian/bike paths, they just paint a line down the middle and designate one side for bikes only. Perhaps the paint contractor will do this after the whole trail is finished?
Now, if there were just a way to keep those dogs on the "expanding" leashes reined in... Title: bicycle courtesy and the new bike hiway Post by: dax on June 30, 2008, 09:50:39 pm Argus appears to have wisdom. He clearly uses the trail a lot and therefore can wax elaborate on the scenario there. It would serve his audience well if he could translate his musings in a way that we plebeians can understand what in the daylights he is trying to convey. [:D]
Title: bicycle courtesy and the new bike hiway Post by: cannon_fodder on July 01, 2008, 07:14:02 am Ed, I understand what you are saying. IF one were to ride in traffic on Riverside (or any arterial road) taking up a lane would be the only way to do it. Just like heavy equipment in Tulsa - any truck larger than a standard carriage has to drive down the center or some idiot will try to pass in the 5' left free. I understand that.
And I respect cyclists who understand the rules. While I (clearly and redundantly) prefer bikes to find alternative routes (side streets, bike paths, sidewalks - which are usually otherwise unused) cyclists that are out for transportation and haul-donkey are OK. There are several around midtown, though the 3 that I know use Pittsburgh to go North South and not arterial roads to go E/W most of the time. One thing I will say on the road users, you have the right to be treated like a car. You can occupy a lane and I will yield to your right. BUT, then you have to follow other traffic laws. A UTulsa Law Librarian has been riding his bike down Harvard lately and elects bike/car status as he sees fit. Yesterday he stopped in the center of a lane at a red light, when traffic cleared - he just went through the red. Yet when traffic approached he held fast in the middle of his lane - ONE OR THE OTHER! Argh. Oh, and on a side note. When Paul is riding his bike on the road he consistently makes uturns, lane changes without signally, etc. I'd love to see him get a ticket like a car. /circular discussion, sorry Title: bicycle courtesy and the new bike hiway Post by: tulsarufflebutt on July 02, 2008, 08:58:18 pm quote: He has. Check with Tulsa Municipal. Title: bicycle courtesy and the new bike hiway Post by: patric on July 29, 2008, 12:00:21 pm The bicycle enthusiasts among us are probably familiar with the "Critical Mass" ride to promote alternatives to automobile-choked streets, with celebrations from California to New York.
The one in New York was marred when police claimed that one bicyclist was alleged to have deliberately driven his bicycle into a police officer. The man was subsequently charged with blocking traffic, resisting arrest, disorderly conduct, and assault. Case closed. Funny thing about public celebrations is that there are lots of people taking pictures, and this video was recently posted to YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUkiyBVytRQ http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-10001149-93.html Title: bicycle courtesy and the new bike hiway Post by: guido911 on July 29, 2008, 12:27:30 pm I have an etiquette question. If I am driving my car on a two-lane road marked at 45 mph and I come up behind a cyclist riding their bike swerving side to center line in my lane (making no effort to get to one side and I cannot pass given on-coming traffic) riding at 10 mph, what am I supposed to do after the cyclist flips me off?
Title: bicycle courtesy and the new bike hiway Post by: Ed W on July 29, 2008, 03:47:35 pm quote: Take the Slawson Cut-Off. Title: bicycle courtesy and the new bike hiway Post by: Hoss on July 29, 2008, 05:09:39 pm quote: But don't cut off your Slawson....Hiiii-yo! Title: bicycle courtesy and the new bike hiway Post by: Ed W on July 29, 2008, 05:34:53 pm OK, here's a serious answer to Guido's question. The law says a cyclist must ride as far to the right as is safe. That is left to the cyclist's judgment, not the motorist following him. Sometimes we move to the left or swerve around patches of glass, cracks, or other road imperfections that motorists simply cannot see. It's sensible for a cyclist to check for overtaking traffic before moving laterally in the lane, but it's not a requirement.
It is a requirement to overtake safely, regardless of the types of vehicles involved. Motorists are required to pass with a minimum clearance of 3 feet when overtaking a cyclist. BTW, don't sound your horn. Cars are plenty noisy (except for those pesky hybrids!) and sometimes we can even smell them coming. No joke. Finally, if a cyclist is weaving uncontrollably, he may be intoxicated or under the influence of a controlled substance. Cyclists are subject to the same drunk driving laws as motorists. Use your cell phone to call 911. I can tell you from a long ago experience that large quantities of vodka do not mix well with cycling, what with the bladder-compressing saddle position and the tendency of my stomach to expel aforementioned vodka. At least I wasn't on the road. But it's an experience I will not repeat. Title: bicycle courtesy and the new bike hiway Post by: sauerkraut on July 30, 2008, 08:31:04 am When I run I just keep to the right side of the trail. I have no problems with bikes or rollerbladers, It does get to be a bit of a pain when there's tons of cyclists, as was the case two weeks ago on the Olentangy jogging trail in Columbus, Ohio. I don't know what was going on but the trail was full of bikes- it was group after group of bikes flying by. I don't know if it was a cycling club out for a ride or some bike race going on or what- anyhow I just kept to the right and let them pass me. My biggest complaint is dogs, I find dogs the biggest pest on the trail and careless dog owners. Let dog owners use the dog parks and let the joggers have the trails.[:P]
Title: bicycle courtesy and the new bike hiway Post by: sauerkraut on July 30, 2008, 08:35:44 am I was surprised by the comments of joggers and bike riders posted here. I thought Tulsa built a seprate trails one trail for us runners and one for the cyclists. Maybe the cyclists in Tulsa are more agressive or something than cyclists on our Ohio trails. I have ran the RiverSide trail alot and never had trouble with bikes or rollerbladers. I have not seen the new trail yet. I was last in Tulsa in early 2007. The Olentangy trail in Columbus, Ohio is very busy on weekends it's like a rush hour on the freeway, runners, bikes, walkers, rollerbladers all fighting for trail space, and it's a bear just to find a parking spot. Sometimes you have to drive to another trail head just to park. I have been doing most of my running on the Heritage Trail in Hilliard, Ohio it's closer to my home and not as busy and parking is better. All the trails get busy on weekends.
Title: bicycle courtesy and the new bike hiway Post by: sauerkraut on July 30, 2008, 09:48:16 am quote:I understand Madison has tons of trails I have never been there, but I heard about them.. The city of Omaha also has a great system of trails like a interstate highway for bikes & joggers with no street crossings. Very nice. I guess cyclists have differant issues and problems over runners for one thing they can't stop as fast as a runner can or react to avoid a object in the trail as fast as a runner can. I have not rode a bike in over 10 years I'm just not into cycling.. I like running much more. But it seems to me both groups (bikes and runners) have trouble with dogs. Title: bicycle courtesy and the new bike hiway Post by: sauerkraut on August 02, 2008, 02:08:00 pm In 3 weeks I'd like to enter a 10 mile race. I'm doing alot of training. That 5K I ran last month was great. There is nothing like the feeling you get crossing the finish line and having a chick put a medal around your neck and give ya a big kiss. I pulled in a second place for my age group in the Pancake 5K last month.
Title: bicycle courtesy and the new bike hiway Post by: sauerkraut on August 02, 2008, 02:09:37 pm I just finished a 6-mile run, 3 miles down the trail & 3 miles back and my time was in the dumper. I need to do more speed work to reach my goal.[B)]
Title: bicycle courtesy and the new bike hiway Post by: patric on September 06, 2008, 05:09:37 pm quote: The resolution: http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/05/charges-dropped-against-shoved-cyclist/?hp Charges Against Shoved Cyclist Are Dropped Prosecutors dropped charges on Friday morning, as expected, against the bicyclist who was shoved off his bike in July by a police officer in Times Square. The confrontation between the cyclist, Christopher Long, and a New York City police officer, Patrick Pogan, was captured on amateur video and circulated widely over the Internet. Mr. Long, 29, had been charged with assault, resisting arrest and disorderly conduct on July 25 after Officer Pogan wrote in his report that Mr. Long had been weaving in and out of traffic and that he had deliberately hit the officer with his bicycle. But video recorded by an onlooker soon surfaced on YouTube, showing Officer Pogan lowering his shoulder and shoving Mr. Long off his bike on Seventh Avenue at 46th Street as Mr. Long tried to steer out of the way. (Officer Pogan was stripped of his badge and gun and placed on desk duty pending the completion of an investigation into his conduct.) Mr. Long, who appeared in Manhattan Criminal Court on Friday morning, wearing a plaid blue shirt and gray slacks, seemed to shy away from the attention and gave only a brief statement outside the courthouse. "I'm just relieved the prosecution's over," he said. "I'm going to go back to normalcy." He added: "This isn't the first time that we've clearly demonstrated police misconduct and brutality, and people are prosecuted. I'm just relieved that the prosecutors did take steps to stop the prosecution." Mr. Long has seemed to attract a bit of a cult following. Several people who have ridden in the Critical Mass bike rides -- which Mr. Long was participating in when he was pushed, and which for years have had a troubled relationship with the police -- showed up in court and applauded when the judge ordered the case dismissed. A court officer quickly quieted them down. One of the supporters had a camcorder and was taping Mr. Long as he walked through the lobby of the courthouse, but again, court officers quickly intervened and demanded that the footage be erased. |