When I was there this weekend I could not help but think this repeatedly.
quote:
Originally posted by deinstein
When I was there this weekend I could not help but think this repeatedly.
No, that's Oklahoma City.
I love Ft Worth. They have a very green city government and some of my favorite paintings are in the Kimball Art Museum.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
I love Ft Worth. They have a very green city government and some of my favorite paintings are in the Kimball Art Museum.
Tulsa has a green city government. Haven't you heard about the mold at old city hall?
quote:
Originally posted by YoungTulsan
Tulsa has a green city government. Haven't you heard about the mold at old city hall?
Which City Hall?
Still not sure how we saved money by purchasing a sky scrapper and holding on to the rest of the property. I'm buying a lake house to see how that works.
RM, its "Foat Wuth, I luv yew!" That's their bumper stickers.
Cannon, I thought we were selling the old city hall buildings for development. Did I miss something?
Ft. Worth pushes it's image as a "cowtown" for the tourists but it has, hands down, some of the best museums around in the Kimball and Amon Carter. They are not just good regionally, they are world class. Their new Modern Art Museum is supposed to be awesome as well. Being a Dallas resident and fan since '85 this has been a little hard to take. In this context, I see the comparisons with Tulsa having The Philbrook and The Gilcrease. Of course isn't there an OKC or Norman museum being built (maybe finished?) to house that massive collection of modern art no one really knew about when some oil guy passed away a couple of years ago? Still, I used to compare Tulsa to Dallas and OKC to Ft. Worth but it's really not that simple anymore...it's fun though.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Cannon, I thought we were selling the old city hall buildings for development. Did I miss something?
Yes, we were. Or are. Whatever. We have 2 city halls and multiple other properties and I have not heard plans to unload any of them. We are, in fact, purchasing more property to manage for the Driller's stadium.
Sorry. Just annoying me because I foretold the long-term holding of properties in spite of consolidation. Long-term being > one year and it looks very much like that will happen as no interest has even been indicated or discussed.
/thread hijack
Maybe we could buy them cheap at a foreclosure auction.
We so need a modern art museum. "Need" as in I would like one and I know a lot of others would to lol. How would you go about getting one? Hit up the big money folk. Start one small?
If the city had some old warehouse, I would shift gears and take on the effort of turning it into a modern art museum. Would be a worthy way to spend the next 20 or so years of my time in my book. Start small and funky, have local artists and the community donate, get donors with money to help make improvements and purchase art...
quote:
Originally posted by bigdtottown
Ft. Worth pushes it's image as a "cowtown" for the tourists but it has, hands down, some of the best museums around in the Kimball and Amon Carter. They are not just good regionally, they are world class.
There's your difference between Ft. Worth and OKC on the one hand and Tulsa on the other. The former two cities aren't ashamed to be called cowtowns, and they promote that aspect of their histories in their tourism marketing, while still embracing their high-culture offerings.
Tulsa has plenty of claim to Western heritage, but we seem embarrassed about it, preferring just to promote the highbrow stuff, even though it's cowboys and Indians and oilmen and Route 66 (and even tornadoes and televangelists) that kindle the imaginations of potential visitors, particularly those from overseas.
Someone who lives within a short train ride of the Louvre isn't going to hop a plane to see Renaissance paintings and enjoy upscale shopping, but they might book a flight to see a rodeo or a powwow, while appreciating having a civilized base from which to explore the Wild West.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
RM, its "Foat Wuth, I luv yew!" That's their bumper stickers.
The first time I saw that saying was on a billboard near Arlington back in the early 80's. I can't believe that they are still using it. Not really the image I would want for my town if I lived there, but then again any episode of COPS from Ft. Worth validates the bumper sticker.
I was the art and architecture critic for three years at the Ft. Worth Star Telegram back in the 80s. I grew to understand and love Ft. Worth and I did find many similarities to Tulsa.
Ft. Worth has lived in Dallas' shadow for many years now so it struggles with self esteem problems. Sound familiar? And for many years development passed Ft. Worth by and that resulted in there being a treasure trove of old buildings in Ft. Worth.
Then the Basses inherited Sid Richardson's fortune and became super rich and set about leaving their mark on the city. There were also other significant money families like the Ft. Worth branch of the Tandys.
I have often lamented that Tulsa's moneyed families have not been as successful in remaking our town. Here, they have seemed to hold us back rather than propel us forward.
Another key difference between Tulsa and Ft. Worth is that Ft. Worth is westward looking and her character reflects that West Texas mindset best typified by Larry McMurtry's writings. We, at least used to, look eastward.
Tulsa and Ft. Worth don't have the strong middle class that Dallas does. And Ft. Worth and Tulsa certainly haven't been exploited as thoroughly as Dallas has. Like Tulsa, Ft. Worth is more affordable and at least used to offer more value in the real estate department.
Tulsa's Gilcrease museum's collection is world class and compares very well to the Carter and the Sid Richardson collection.
The Modern Museum in Ft. Worth is largely the result of the dedication of one member of one very rich family. The same is true of the Kimbell and the Carter. It doesn't take a whole lot of focused millionaires and billionaires to make a difference. My frustration with Tulsa's upper crust on the other hand has led me to ask, can we trade our rich folks with Ft. Worth?
Am I correct in assuming the comparison you all made to OKC was to degrade Ft. Worth?
I found the city to be extremely underrated and I had a great time venturing through the city this past weekend.
The downtown area is what Tulsa should strive to be. Walkable, nice shops along the curb and blends in with the high rises.
A college that blends in with the area (TCU) and seems to have had a positive impact on the area around it rather than a negative impact like TU.
Comparing it to OKC? I think you're digging deep. There is nothing in Tulsa nor OKC that is having the positive economic boom I saw in their downtown area heading towards the University.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
We so need a modern art museum. "Need" as in I would like one and I know a lot of others would to lol. How would you go about getting one? Hit up the big money folk. Start one small?
If the city had some old warehouse, I would shift gears and take on the effort of turning it into a modern art museum. Would be a worthy way to spend the next 20 or so years of my time in my book. Start small and funky, have local artists and the community donate, get donors with money to help make improvements and purchase art...
I hear some mid-century contemporary buildings may be available downtown. Check with the owners of the old city hall.[:D]
Is Tulsa just a poor mans Fort Worth?
Ironic question, since almost 20 years ago, back when I lived there for a single summer... I thought Fort Worth was "just a poor man's Tulsa."
Of course, Ft Worth never labeled itself the "Oil Capitol of the World" or "America's Most Beautiful City" the way Tulsa did back in the day, so I think the problems with Tulsa over the years may simply boil down to "truth in labeling." What does "comfortably cosmopolitan" really mean?!? [}:)]
I said a few years back that I thought OKC wanted to be Dallas when it grows up... while Tulsa has wanted to be Boston... problem is, I'm thinking these days that Tulsa's approach is futile, while OKC keeps making progress... Ft Worth has always had to live under the shadow of Dallas... will Tulsa someday end up playing second fiddle to OKC in every catagory?
Since moving back here recently, I admit I don't understand the riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma that is Midtown Tulsa... sure there are some nice areas in individual neighborhoods, but there are also some generic ranch-style homes, some bungalows you could find in just about any other city, etc, etc...
When I was a kid, it was cool to drive past downtown on I-244 to see Tulsa's affluence... in high school/college it was I-44 that showed off Tulsa... these days, I see Tulsa's wealth and affluence when I travel on the Creek Turnpike... nice landscaping, enormous, modern homes, etc... yet midtown political correctness forbids anyone show any kind of admiration for anything south of 41st Street...
Then there's TU.
TCU has roughly DOUBLE the number of students compared to TU, yet doesn't label itself "Ft Worth Univ"-- my alma mater, OCU, has a tiny fraction of the endowment TU has, yet the OC stands for Oklahoma City, while there's the quaint yet little known fact that the "T" in Univ of Tulsa stands for "THE".... the TU grads I've run into in other cities are much more likely to talk about Tulsa in only the most condescending terms than similar types who went to college in Ft. Worth or OKC...
Why is this?
quote:
Originally posted by deinstein
A college that blends in with the area (TCU) and seems to have had a positive impact on the area around it rather than a negative impact like TU.
This is something I've got to hear....
quote:
Originally posted by deinstein
Am I correct in assuming the comparison you all made to OKC was to degrade Ft. Worth?
I found the city to be extremely underrated and I had a great time venturing through the city this past weekend.
The downtown area is what Tulsa should strive to be. Walkable, nice shops along the curb and blends in with the high rises.
A college that blends in with the area (TCU) and seems to have had a positive impact on the area around it rather than a negative impact like TU.
Comparing it to OKC? I think you're digging deep. There is nothing in Tulsa nor OKC that is having the positive economic boom I saw in their downtown area heading towards the University.
The comparison to OKC has more to do with the parallels between the OKC-Tulsa and Ft. Worth-Dallas rivalries. Years ago (30?)
Oklahoma Monthly did a whole issue about the OKC-Tulsa rivalry, and the cover depicted OKC as a cowboy and Tulsa as a mustachioed dandy, engaged in a fistfight. The Ft. Worth and Dallas rivalry could be seen in a similar light.
But you're right on all counts about Ft. Worth, deinstein. The downtown is bustling with retail (including major chains) and entertainment; they have parking, but it doesn't pervade downtown. TCU is a good neighbor, and you have some great neighborhoods and retail districts nearby. They are way ahead of us on historic preservation.
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
quote:
Originally posted by deinstein
A college that blends in with the area (TCU) and seems to have had a positive impact on the area around it rather than a negative impact like TU.
This is something I've got to hear....
Well, what positive impact does TU have on the area? I don't see it. All I know is a few people who are worried a private college will use eminent domain to buy them out and throw up some more suburban style apartments.
Which would be all fine and dandy...if the college brought more to the immediate area than a strip of fast food joints.
Ft. Worth has a private school in TCU, and the area around the college was nice and well-kept, and much more sustainable. I realize TCU is larger, but that likely has to do with the school taking more proactive steps than TU which is my point to begin with.
quote:
Originally posted by deinstein
Well, what positive impact does TU have on the area? I don't see it. All I know is a few people who are worried a private college will use eminent domain to buy them out and throw up some more suburban style apartments.
Which would be all fine and dandy...if the college brought more to the immediate area than a strip of fast food joints.
Ft. Worth has a private school in TCU, and the area around the college was nice and well-kept, and much more sustainable. I realize TCU is larger, but that likely has to do with the school taking more proactive steps than TU which is my point to begin with.
I lived in the previous apartments, and I can tell you that the new ones are a great improvement over what was there.
I'm questioning if you've been to the area around TU recently? The only area around TU that looks run-down is around 6th street towards downtown. South of TU is and has been seeing a resurgence of young buyers and renovations.
I'm around the TU area on a daily basis.
...what are you seeing that I am not? I don't buy TU having a direct impact on people buying historic houses, I think those advertise themselves and people are wising up finally.
In fact, couldn't I argue the hundred of suburban style apartments they threw up take away from TU students vacating the surrounding areas?
I love Fort Worth, I lived in the D/FW area back in the 1980's. Fort Worth has some great Museums and a planetarium on the west side of town. Every May 1st they have Mayfest in Trinity Park and a radio station and a TV station crew do a tug of war across the Trinity river. Fort Worth has a outstanding jogging trail system. I understand today the The Trinity Jogging Trail is over 35 miles long and they are building more & more jogging trails. The Trinity Trail is one of the nicest trails to run, you see wildlife & wildflowers all over and no street crossings. Texas has great night life too. The climate is warm & mild most of the year. (You can cruise around Fort Worth on google street level). I give Fort Worth very high marks. Thumbs up! Dallas & Arlington also have some great sights like a Wax Museum and 6-Flags over Texas and a new ball park. Dallas has some real nice jogging trails a popular trail circles White Rock lake and is full of runners. Texas is a blast![:)]
quote:
Originally posted by deinstein
I'm around the TU area on a daily basis.
...what are you seeing that I am not? I don't buy TU having a direct impact on people buying historic houses, I think those advertise themselves and people are wising up finally.
In fact, couldn't I argue the hundred of suburban style apartments they threw up take away from TU students vacating the surrounding areas?
I don't have figures, so I can't argue either way about it. I do know that there are still rental houses and duplexes being filled with students, and I'm also well aware of several former students who have decided to stay in the neighborhoods surrounding the University after graduation. Proximity to the University, and its accompanying free-to-low-cost events, has been a huge selling point for several of the surrounding houses.
Downtown Ft. Worth is the coolest thing in the entire Dallas area. It's where I escape all the soul-numbing suburban sprawl whenever I'm forced to go to Dallas.
Wow, the community attitude towards TU reflects the wider attitude of the Tulsa community. "What does it do for me?"
1) Well, lets start with what you have wrong. The "T" is not to delineate it as "The" University. But thanks for assuming we are pompous.
UT in this part of the world means "University of Texas." Not far East of here it means "University of Tennessee." In fact, aTm fans decry their foes in Texas by calling them t.u. denying them the right of being THE University of Texas. Texas fans claim t.u. simply stands for "The University."
But anyway, "TU" is a practicality because we are overshadowed by much large "UT's" in the region. Not a sign of self importance.
2) The apartments are certainly NOT "suburban style." They are far more dense than the rest of the area and incorporate less than one parking sport per intended residence. They are crammed together pretty well. For the number of adults living in them the density in those complexes is probably as great as anywhere else in Tulsa.
On top of that, they are damn nice apartments. But certainly, the density complaint is just wrong.
3) Rental rates in the area are still high. To rent a house in that area you will spend $1200+ a month for even a 1 bedroom house. Far greater than comparable residence further from campus. Certainly the presence of the campus, the students and employees are a large factor in that.
The apartments are required for Freshmen and Sophomores under the age of 21. General not regarded as highly desirable renters anyway. That leaves 1500 undergraduate and 1200 graduate students looking for housing in the area, in addition to the well paid employees and those wishing to live near TU for other reasons. I'm guessing that has something to do with the area immediately around TU being nice.
3) Which brings us to the fact that the areas all around TU are nice with the possible exception of Kendall Whittier - which is just recently bordering TU. If you travel further than 1 mile East or just 8 block North the area degrades rapidly. It would seem strange if that was a coincidence.
4) Speaking of the area... without TU the retail/eateries in the area would probably not have developed and/or moved on by now. All the fast food joints, the bars, the coffee shop opening up, the salon, print shop etc. would not be there. Not too mention recent improvements to make the campus look nice all around. Brick, lighting, and signage to make it look like a modern campus.
5) For the area and for the community at large Tulsa also provides greens space, a library (law library not public but-for the government documents section), concerts (many free), speakers (many notable and almost all free), and on-site expertise. Feel free to go to a concert on campus, hear a Supreme Court Justice or former head of state speak, or track down an expert in an area for a quick question.
6) Athletics. How much are we paying for Driller's stadium? How much subsidy do we essentially pay for the Talons and the Oilers? If we get a MLS team, how much we will end up subsidize it?
TU plays top tier athletics in 18 different sports. Winning our conference championships more than any other school in the nation over the last 3 years. Soccer is free and we were ranked this year. A football game (we ended the season ranked #25) will cost $30 for an entire family. A basketball ticket is $10 and we have a good chance to be top notch this year.
Also, visiting teams and fans take up hotel rooms. They eat at local restaurants. They fly in and out of our airport. We host conference tournaments as well as NATIONAL Tournaments.
7) how much does Tulsa spend a year advertising itself? Well, thanks to TU we were on the CBS Sports Network nearly all day for 2 weeks during the NCAA Tennis Tournament. When TU is on TV playing football or basketball Tulsa gets mentioned to the nation more than the rest of the year combined. When there is a big game in town and ESPN is filming from the top of Skelly they constantly cut to scenes of Bell's in the distance or our skyline.
In addition to sports fans - engineers, researchers, speakers, and government officials come to town to go to events, speaking engagements and so on at TU. Students, parents, and relatives comes to graduations.
Name recognition is worth something, and again... it's free. What other entity in town has as many visitors come to check out Tulsa?
8) If those don't count as contributions how about the sheer economic impact of having a privately funded research institution in town? A payroll in excess of $40,000,000.00, tons of contractors and part timers after that. 4,300 students paying an average of $26,000 a year - pretending they don't touch the endowment and the students don't spend any money outside of tuition and fees - that's a $112,000,000.00 economic impact.
You want quality jobs? I'm willing to bet in the category of "people making over $100,000 a year" the University of Tulsa is one of the top employers in town. Add a few making at or near $1,000,000 a year just to contribute to the really rich.
Your company need work? Do you own a construction company? Sell lawn equipment? Paper distributor? Food vendor? Heating and air? Paint company? Trucking? Travel agency? Athletic equipment? Roofing? Design firm? Used books? I know a client you could try to win.
9) What we need in this town to really succeed are educated young people. And the University of Tulsa helps provide them free of charge to you, Joe Taxpayer. You're welcome.
My family would never have ended up in Tulsa without the University.
10) If all that isn't good enough, the University and students do a ton of volunteering, fund raising, and mentoring in the community. After the ice-storm the football team cleared nearby schools and parks. There are constant blood drives, fund raising events, and collections. The University itself is managing Gilcrease at it's own expense. And on and on...
- - -
I don't get it. I saw a head shop, Wendy's and abandoned bar get bought out by a notable University. You saw some horrible monster grabbing for power. I see economic impact, education, and community assets - and you see nothing at all.
I'd be happy to compare the differences between TU and OCU (lets start with admission requirements), but it really isn't relevant to seeing what the community gets from the University of Tulsa.
I'm taking you to a football game. We will drink. Tulsa will win. You will LOVE TU. [:P]
quote:
Originally posted by TURobY
quote:
Originally posted by deinstein
I'm around the TU area on a daily basis.
...what are you seeing that I am not? I don't buy TU having a direct impact on people buying historic houses, I think those advertise themselves and people are wising up finally.
In fact, couldn't I argue the hundred of suburban style apartments they threw up take away from TU students vacating the surrounding areas?
I don't have figures, so I can't argue either way about it. I do know that there are still rental houses and duplexes being filled with students, and I'm also well aware of several former students who have decided to stay in the neighborhoods surrounding the University after graduation. Proximity to the University, and its accompanying free-to-low-cost events, has been a huge selling point for several of the surrounding houses.
What I'm questioning is rather or not TU has the affect on the people buying the historic houses (either because students want to live there or because it's near TU) rather than people just buying the houses because they want a house in Tulsa with historic charm.
And I think it's fair for to point out even if this is the case, the actual college is regressive towards this type of situation due to the suburban style housing they added within the past couple of years.
deinstein:
1) read my post above.
2) What style of housing should they have built? Individual houses for 1500 students? Would you have been happy if they bulldozed 37 blocks to build houses on (20 houses per block, 2 people per house)? Or perhaps only old-style dorms are allowed... which have been on the decline for 15 years or so.
I have to wonder how often you were in that area if you think it's regression. Head shop, abandoned bar, Wendy's and empty over grown lots in exchange for a dozen 3 story apartments buildings. Seems like a good trade.
This
(http://www.insiderpages.com/photos/business/full/340/3601437340/11606.jpg)
For this:
(http://www.utulsa.edu/housing/images/apts_01.jpg)
[edit]removed long link because it was annoying to view the rest of the page[/edit]
quote:
Originally posted by deinstein
What I'm questioning is rather or not TU has the affect on the people buying the historic houses (either because students want to live there or because it's near TU) rather than people just buying the houses because they want a house in Tulsa with historic charm.
I can't say, unfortunately, as I'm not a mind reader. [:P] It would make an interesting survey though.
quote:
And I think it's fair for to point out even if this is the case, the actual college is regressive towards this type of situation due to the suburban style housing they added within the past couple of years.
I can agree with you that I'm not wild about the architectural style of housing put up. But I would still argue that it increases density and that it is visually more appealing and than the decrepit structures that previously existed.
TU is a subject that we will have to agree to disagree on. I think I've taken this off-topic.
1. I read it. Now compare yourself to TCU, which was my point. Rather than ranting about your alma mater with points any college could make.
2. Larger than three stories. Parking garages. Less space, more dense. Less eminent domain. Leaving room on 11th St. for private development like this Barnes & Noble at say...15th & Delaware:
(http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper792/stills/o2459356.jpg)
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Wow, the community attitude towards TU reflects the wider attitude of the Tulsa community. "What does it do for me?"
1) Well, lets start with what you have wrong. The "T" is not to delineate it as "The" University. But thanks for assuming we are pompous.
... blah blah blah... TU SPAM...
I'd be happy to compare the differences between TU and OCU (lets start with admission requirements), but it really isn't relevant to seeing what the community gets from the University of Tulsa.
I'm taking you to a football game. We will drink. Tulsa will win. You will LOVE TU. [:P]
Thank you for demonstrating my point. This is the TU myopia I'm talking about... and yes, pomposity... I've seen it over the years from all too many TU alums... TU has certainly added to my overall view of the size and scope of Tulsa's civic clique-ish-ness... [:o)]
As far as TU's admission requirements?!?... pancakes? I could have easily gotten into TU and got a nifty little scholarship to study in a tiny little underfunded music department lacking in quality students and lacking in quality facilities... while TU overfunds their athletics and has an endowment of well over $700mil... ooh, but that new arts auditorium TU is finally building is going to be sooooooo cute...
But I grew up with TU... I grew up with TU football and basketball. I will likely catch at least a game or two every year of football, basketball and, of course, soccer-- more if they fire Doug Wojeck... I sat at a bar full of Wisconsin fans on the northside of Chicago watching TU lose a heartbreaker the last time they got into the NCAA basketball tourney. My aunt got her theatre degree there decades ago... back when they still had a baseball team and played SoCal in the College World Series... all while the bands and orchestras and other performance groups had concerts at various places like a church down the street, etc....
I remember on a website a few years back, someone from OKC harmlessly mentioned "Tulsa University" on one of his posts... and the TU grad made a huge histrionic point that it is...... drumroll please...... the University of Tulsa... the "T" in TU stands for "The"... as in... "THE" University of Tulsa... all hail the Harvard of the Southwest... /sarcasm.
As far as what TU contributes to the city, it certainly has been a good grassroots option for civic pride to have all the Div I athletic programs... it's been that way for decades... OKC has that state-funded school in Norman in its backyard... it's fun to root for the underdog against the big boys when TU has a good football or basketball team... or the unique situation that was TU women's golf under McNamera...
The area around TU vascilates back and forth... there was a time when the area directly around TU was pretty seedy... and I don't think TU was a big influence either way in this regard. The area has cleaned up pretty nicely on its own over the past decade or so, but the people I talk to about possibly buying a house around the TU area wonder when/where the next "land grab" will be...
But yes, I am more impressed from an outsider's view with what TCU does for Ft Worth over what TU does for Tulsa... especially considering the strange feeling I get from TU alums that the city of Tulsa would just curl up and die if TU wasn't doing A, B, or C...
Don't forget that TCU is like three times the size of TU.
USRufnex I think you perceive a lot more snobbery coming from that school than actually exists. You're sure down on the little place--you know it has less than 3000 students, right? Only about 800 more than Broken Arrow High School?
That said, I count myself among those disappointed with what TU did on 11th St. Instead of taking the opportunity to create a semblance of neighborhood synergy and openness, the school built suburban-style apartment modules and gated them off from the rest of Route 66. Quite a shame if you ask me.
Umm. Yeah.
TU has the smallest enrollment of any school playing NCAA D-1 football.
So maybe TU owes more to the city of Tulsa and its citizens than the other way around.
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
TCU has roughly DOUBLE the number of students compared to TU, yet doesn't label itself "Ft Worth Univ"-- my alma mater, OCU, has a tiny fraction of the endowment TU has, yet the OC stands for Oklahoma City, while there's the quaint yet little known fact that the "T" in Univ of Tulsa stands for "THE"....
This made me think of something I've often wondered about. Why do they call the University of Oklahoma "OU"? Shouldn't it be "UofO" or "UO"?
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
1) Well, lets start with what you have wrong. The "T" is not to delineate it as "The" University. But thanks for assuming we are pompous.
UT in this part of the world means "University of Texas." Not far East of here it means "University of Tennessee." In fact, aTm fans decry their foes in Texas by calling them t.u. denying them the right of being THE University of Texas. Texas fans claim t.u. simply stands for "The University."
I've noticed the end zones in College Station say "Texas Aggies". Does aggy really think they're the major public university in Texas? After all, the field in Stillwater doesn't say "Oklahoma Cowboys".
quote:
TU plays top tier athletics in 18 different sports. Winning our conference championships more than any other school in the nation over the last 3 years. Soccer is free and we were ranked this year. A football game (we ended the season ranked #25)
Who ranked Tulsa 25? They got 4 votes in the AP poll and 5 in the USA Today poll:
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/rankingsindex
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
Don't forget that TCU is like three times the size of TU.
Don't you think that has more to do with TCU simply being a more desirable place to go? Because I do.
It's in a city I think is currently leaps and bounds ahead of Tulsa (as I suggest in my thread title), it's got a much better athletic program than TU (Sorry, I don't see TU throwing any Ladainian Tomlinson's on the field) and they are both about on par academically (US News has TU #91 & TCU #108 overall).
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
[brTU has the smallest enrollment of any school playing NCAA D-1 football.
Don't get them started on this. They legitimately think they deserve 1 and 1 game contracts with Oklahoma State.
This has taken an interesting turn. TU has always struck me as being "in" Tulsa but not really "part of" Tulsa. This is in contrast to SMU and TCU which seem to be more integrated into their respective communities on a day to day basis, SMU in particular. This certainly may be influenced by the fact that I graduated from SMU and live in University Park but still, it seems like there's a lot more going on in both Dallas and Ft. Worth that are driven by the two schools. TU is a fine school but sometimes I get the impression they'd prefer to be in Boston! [:D]
First, sorry for the really long post. There was tons brought up.
And to clarify: I do not think The University of Tulsa is perfect. They could make their campus more community friendly (gates) and hopefully will increase density in the future. They are not a Harvard in academics nor an OU in athletics. I don't harbor illusions.
But I am proud of Tulsa's University and the school that I graduated from and I do think it is under appreciated in the community. Likely as much a problem created by the University. So sorry if I seem defensive.
quote:
Originally posted by deinstein
Well, what positive impact does TU have on the area? I don't see it.
This is what I was responding to. You had 3 or 4 posts talking about how TU does nothing for the area or the community. That TU was a pompous institution that is a negative for our community. You did not argue that OCU and TCU were better for the community, you argued that they were positive and TU was negative.
I responded in great detail about what positive aspects the University of Tulsa provides for our community. I stated facts about the school I went to in order to denounce your ramblings with one shot across the bow of another institution (which you brought up). I'm not sure how that makes me or any other TU Alum pompous. It seems like the response you were challenging people for.
To address the newly raised points (not all of these where by you I realize):
1) Over funded athletics?
TCU: $39,000,000
OSU: $41,000,000
OU: $69,000,000
TU: $24,000,000
First, I'm not sure why you care what TU budgets for their athletics. But more on point, how can you claim their athletics are OVERfunded? They are in the very bottom of funding for schools with as many D-I teams as they support yet win more conference championships. Your statement that they over fund athletics is simply not true.
http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/search.asp
2) The "T" in "TU." So some guy said it stood for "The" and therefor University of Tulsa is a pompous institution. I gave you the reasoning I was given by the Dean of the Law school and every other alumni I have talked to and it makes perfect sense to me. If you still choose to believe the former I can not stop you (insert explanation here, "I don't believe you so your pompous!"). But I fail to see how that reflects on the institution.
You realize "THE University" appears on nothing I have ever seen. Helmets, banners, signs, literature all say "Tulsa" on them. Shirts that say "TU" say "The University of Tulsa" underneath them. When they run the flags out on the field they read "TULSA." The official logo says "Tulsa."
Point me to something that says "The University" and leaves of "of Tulsa" unless it is using a generic term. Just because someone says it, does not make it so. GO forth and fund me something that says "TU: THE University" in an official capacity and I'll buy it. I have just never heard that before nor ever seen it, in spite of graduating from there, holding season tickets, and contributing to fund raisers.
3)
quote:
So maybe TU owes more to the city of Tulsa and its citizens than the other way around.
You make it sound like I am arguing that Tulsa is not getting what it deserves, but I don't believe anyone in here has argued that the community owes anything to TU. My only gripe is the overwhelming view of the citizens that Tulsa is "other people" and a detriment to the community. Hence, I am doing my best to deny that.
4) Eminent Domain
Very little property was actually acquired by eminent domain. The vast majority of property was purchased outright, and at a premium. Most of the businesses that were moved were sold from underneath the business owners (they leased) space. That includes the METRO DINER. Metro Diner did not own the land, and TU paid $800,000 for the 1/3 acres lot (that's not a fair price?). They also settled with the owners of the business... to whom they owed nothing.
However, I agree that the gates they are putting up do not create a welcoming atmosphere. They do, however, stop people from breaking in to students cars. The same reason they blocked off multiple entrances to parking lots. Students and visitors alike are annoyed by these actions (having to walk around gates/exit from the other end of the lot) but they are labeled as "safety" factors as Universities are rated on the amount of crime on campus (and numerically a car burglary counts as much as a murder).
5) Development/Parking
For private development, Barnes and Noble nor any other significant retailer expressed interest. For that matter, TU does not control 15th and Delaware. At 11th and Delaware there would not be near enough parking available to meet city requirements. There are bookstores, eateries, coffee shops, and even a bar already on campus too boot. So it seems unlikely that more would want to do in nearby.
Basically, The area is highly developed - the University can either grow itself or grow private enterprise. If private enterprise wishes to enter the area there are plenty of spaces they could purchase to do so. Contiguous land in that area is simply not easy to come by.
If structures were built that were larger than 3 stories more people would complain that they were ruining the character of the area than complain about it not being dense enough. It's simply a no win situation. No matter what they do they lose: before the expansion they were mocked as "not even noticeable" and "ugly." Without apartments they were just a "commuter campus." When their athletic teams were not good they "shouldn't bother playing." Now they are land whores with suburban apartments who over-fund athletics.
And for parking garages... many Universities have this debate. A parking garage can cost as much as $15,000 per space. Generally land values have to be over $1,000,000 an acre to make it worthwhile to even consider. A number which is not even approached in the area.
To do any good we would need at least 3,000 parking space. Costing at least $24,000,000 - nearly as much as the latest phase of stadium renovation. Fund raising for a parking garage is harder than a stadium. And, the argument goes, it wouldn't solve the problem, could increase crime, and creates more of a hassle on game days.
It simply isn't practical, as much as it would be useful. Underground parking is even more expensive.
I would love to see some structured parking, more density, and private growth in the area. But those items don't get fund raising support and there is no public funds available. I hope the density grows to support it, but it's not there yet.
6) Sports
Bugo: as a matter of correction, I can not find where Tulsa football ended ranked 25th. I thought for some reason that we drew a computer ranking of 25th but must have been mistaken. We were ranked #40 in the BCS poll last year. We were #25 at the end of the 2006 season.
But unless you are willing to concede that OSU is not a top caliber team (not ranked in BCS poll at all, no votes), my point on quality football in Tulsa still stands.
Per TCU, TCU certainly has been dominant in football so far this decade and done well long term. But don't sell us short... both our teams have been in the Sugar Bowl, Orange Bowl, and Cotton bowls numerous times. In the NFL Hall of Fame there are 2 players from TCU, 3 from Tulsa (3 from OU, 2 from OSU). But I agree that TCU's football has done very well historically and been resurgent lately. I'm happy we are on the path to mimic their success by playing for conference titles, beating NCAA records, winning bowl games, and posting 10 win seasons.
In basketball TCU's history doesn't live up, or many other areas for that matter. Tulsa has won conference titles in rowing, soccer, tennis (one of if not THE best tennis facility at a college), football, and womens basketball in the last 4 years. More conference titles in the last 5 years than any other school in the nation. I'd say we hold our own, particularly for our size.
Basically, if sports success is a sign of a good University Tulsa is doing just fine. For money put in I'd venture to guess we do the best in the nation. Our football team is consistently listed as a favorite non-BCS team to play in a BCS bowl. We are given the best chance of going undefeated in the nation according to several ESPN talking heads. Our basketball team is certainly on the rise and gaining international attention (China, Canada, Jamaica). We're not OU or Duke and we don't pretend to be. But don't sell us short.
I'm an unabashed Tulsa sports fan, my zeal probably interferes with my logic in this regard far too often but I'd be happy to discuss it more in the Sports blog. If you aren't excited about TU athletics you just haven't been paying attention. More than happy to discuss it further.
7) Admissions/Performance (comparison about request)
TU:
64% in the top 10% of their class
ACT 27 (Median 1st year student)
SAT 585
49% admission rate
TCU:
30% in the top 10%
ACT 25.5
SAT 575
49% Admission rate
OCU:
30% in the top 10%
ACT 24.5
SAT 575
81% admission rate
For comparison OU:
33% top 10%
ACT 25.5
SAT 575
89% admission rate
By any measure TU is selective in it's student body. Contrary to the "TCU is larger because they are better" argument, TU is purposefully selective (not to say TCU isn't selective, they clearly are. Just saying TU could enroll many, many more students if they choose). They can not compete on volume and in order to keep themselves growing in the rankings (it's all a game) they must keep a faculty ration as low as possible (currently 11:1).
TCU has 4,000 more students and only 100 more faculty members.
As an interesting aside,
Tulsa is far more diverse than the stereotype goes:TU:
White: 64%
In-State: 51%
International: 13%
TCU:
White: 74%
In-State: 77%
International: 5%
I'm not knocking TCU at all. I have great respect for that institution. But to suggest Tulsa is more myopic and less selective in admissions in just wrong.
- - -
Again, Tulsa is not Harvard in academics. It is not OU in football. It is not Duke in basketball. It is not Pepperdine for having a wonderful campus. It is a small private school in Tulsa. One that has done very well in attracting a superb and diverse student body, a winning tradition in athletics, and had many positive influences in the community.
Room for improvement? Certainly. Let me know how you think the University can be better for the community and how the University can be better accepted BY the community. I'd much rather it be the University OF Tulsa than THE University. I want people to support TU in every way and understand TU has to support the community for that to happen.
So fill me in on how I can help make that happen, instead of telling me my school is inferior in all aspects.
Yep. Defensive is the right word.
TU arrogance, bringing out SATs and ACTs...... maybe TU would have a greater positive impact on its surroundings if it had more undergraduate students... not suggesting anyone "dumb down" TU, just saying more qualified applicants would go there if they strengthened more of their depts...
TU has a similar impact on its surrounding neighborhoods as OCU does on NW 23rd St.... I like the Mesta Park area in OKC... I like the Florence Park area around TU...
I don't see people from my alma mater or many others who badmouth the city of their school the way TU people do... yet many of TU's biggest donors never actually went to school there... where's the love?
...just an observation.
Wow, you sound like an Ohio State fan attacking Michigan. Why such animosity?
How was my response arrogant?
quote:
USRUFNEX said
As far as TU's admission requirements?!?... pancakes?
To which I listed and compared admission requirements. To me that seems like the exact response mandated by the statement. By your logic the only way I could avoid being labeled arrogant is to agree with false statements about lax admission standards at TU.
Also, TU wants to be a to 50 institution. It's goal is not to admit more applicants, the goal is to admit better students. They have never wanted to get a larger student body. Thus, all statements inferring they are inferior because they can not get enough qualified applicants is simply not applicable.
But I agree it would seem more like a college area if they have the 5,000+ undergrads TCU or OCU has. Discussion about the impact on the area is debatable (grad students have families, party less, etc.). But they don't and they probably won't. If I had the money I would endow an "alternative energy" department to compliment their world renowned petroleum engineering program. I'd also like to see the liberal arts improved - and hopefully the new facility will see us head in that direction.
Finally, I'm not sure if you are trying to put the school down by pointing out that many prominent people give to the University without having graduated from there. To me, that's a positive thing. I'm proud that many people see TU has a worthwhile place to donate their money. Most of their gifts are challenge gifts that are met by Alumni.
Edward Gaylord didn't graduate from OU (Stanford man), but they sure don't turn away his money. For that matter Leland Stanford didn't graduate from Stanford... [;)]
I am more than happy to hear about ways TU and the city of Tulsa can improve. But I do not appreciate people making false statements or ignoring the facts. Retorting the false statements is neither arrogant (as here) nor drinking cool aid (FB or Inteller on Tulsa).
I don't know ho much more clear I can be.
[edit]PS. Ruf. TU is good in soccer and games are free to attend. Doesn't that buy any love at all?[/edit]
Tulsa University is better than Texas Christian University because they are in Texas.
I am from Oklahoma, Texas is beneath me.
quote:
Originally posted by RecycleMichael
Tulsa University is better than Texas Christian University because they are in Texas.
I am from Oklahoma, Texas is beneath me.
[}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)]
I meant 11th & Delaware when using the Barnes and Nobles example. I think you knew that was a typo though.
NOTE: BYU is the non-BCS favorite this year, not TU. TU is mentioned because their schedule is so easy.
Seriously, what's your problem with TU, did they kick you out or something? What's your school so i can sh!t all over it. If it's Harvard your athletics suck. If it's Duke your football was actually held in court to be THE WORST in the nation. If I just wanted to be a dick I could pick on something for every school, but most have many positive things too.
I provided perfectly reasonable answers to all your complaints and you nit-pick on sports? Even after I stated that was the one issue I was not rational on. But if you must...
quote:
Some jackass wrote
TU is mentioned because their schedule is so easy.
ESPN predicts "Tulsa and BYU will each finish with one loss." Tulsa beat BYU last year for whatever that's worth.
"Fearless Prediction: whomever plays QB at Tulsa will all pass for more than 4,000 yards this season."
"Tulsa --
The nation's best offense lost its quarterback to graduation, but returns nine starters, including running back Tarrion Adams who rushed for 1,225 yards and eight touchdowns and caught 30 passes and three touchdowns. Despite being one of the nation's top passing teams, the Golden Hurricanes actually had one more rushing play than passing play. The schedule is probably the most favorable in the non-BCS for an undefeated season."
College Football News and ESPN U say, "I do like CFN's fearless Tulsa prediction. I, too, think Tulsa could be a force this season if it can decide on a quarterback (my vote is for Clark Harrell). The Golden Hurricanes are in their second season with former Arkansas offensive coordinator Gus Malzahn and last year's offense was the best in the country."
Seriously, if we are on to Tulsa football your fighting an uphill battle. We are getting a TON of respect for a non-BCS school. BYU (former National Champs) and Utah (a few years removed from a BCS bowl) are the only non-BCS teams ever mentioned ahead of us. But those two have to play each other as well as BYU playing UCLA and Utah playing Michigan (not sure if that counts as hard), ... if we can beat Arkansas we have a damn good shot at going undefeated.
Again, Utah's hardest opponant is BYU (who we beat) and Michigan (who got beat by a D-IAA).
Are you even a football fan or did you just run off to look things up to see if you could be negative? We're a tiny private school in Tulsa. 6 years ago we were HORRIBLE. Now we are getting a stadium renovation, QBs are leaving because there are too many good ones, our recruiting is going amazingly well, season tickets are selling great, our coaches are being interviewed by ESPN, our AD was looked at for the Notre dame job, and the season will be a failure without playing for the conference title and winning a bowl.
At Tulsa? Damn right. And I'm happy with that level of success. AGAIN, we are not vying for national Championships, but I'm proud w\of what my school has done.
quote:
deinstien wrote
Tulsa f**king blows.
The entire state f**king blows.
Only an idiot would be content in this sh**hole.
Well that's nice. Why are you so bitter?
While we're at it...
(http://www.wilddamntexan.com/kids/demotivators/Strawman.jpg)
I address all your topics ad contentions point by point. I use actual data. I challenge you to find sources.
You come back with an address and "TU football sucks." I have fished for constructive items. I have opened the door to give praise. I have complimented the other schools you mentioned. I have been careful to explain things to you.
You ridicule, change the subject, and nitpick.
And here I even offered to take you to a game and have fun some fun. Sheesh. Do fill me in on what school you went to so I can troll the internet finding things to whine about.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Seriously, what's your problem with TU, did they kick you out or something? What's your school so i can sh!t all over it. If it's Harvard your athletics suck. If it's Duke your football was actually held in court to be THE WORST in the nation. If I just wanted to be a dick I could pick on something for every school, but most have many positive things too.
I provided perfectly reasonable answers to all your complaints and you nit-pick on sports? Even after I stated that was the one issue I was not rational on. But if you must...
quote:
Some jackass wrote
TU is mentioned because their schedule is so easy.
ESPN predicts "Tulsa and BYU will each finish with one loss." Tulsa beat BYU last year for whatever that's worth.
"Fearless Prediction: whomever plays QB at Tulsa will all pass for more than 4,000 yards this season."
"Tulsa -- The nation's best offense lost its quarterback to graduation, but returns nine starters, including running back Tarrion Adams who rushed for 1,225 yards and eight touchdowns and caught 30 passes and three touchdowns. Despite being one of the nation's top passing teams, the Golden Hurricanes actually had one more rushing play than passing play. The schedule is probably the most favorable in the non-BCS for an undefeated season."
College Football News and ESPN U say, "I do like CFN's fearless Tulsa prediction. I, too, think Tulsa could be a force this season if it can decide on a quarterback (my vote is for Clark Harrell). The Golden Hurricanes are in their second season with former Arkansas offensive coordinator Gus Malzahn and last year's offense was the best in the country."
Seriously, if we are on to Tulsa football your fighting an uphill battle. We are getting a TON of respect for a non-BCS school. BYU (former National Champs) and Utah (a few years removed from a BCS bowl) are the only non-BCS teams ever mentioned ahead of us. But those two have to play each other as well as BYU playing UCLA and Utah playing Michigan (not sure if that counts as hard), ... if we can beat Arkansas we have a damn good shot at going undefeated.
Again, Utah's hardest opponant is BYU (who we beat) and Michigan (who got beat by a D-IAA).
Are you even a football fan or did you just run off to look things up to see if you could be negative? We're a tiny private school in Tulsa. 6 years ago we were HORRIBLE. Now we are getting a stadium renovation, QBs are leaving because there are too many good ones, our recruiting is going amazingly well, season tickets are selling great, our coaches are being interviewed by ESPN, our AD was looked at for the Notre dame job, and the season will be a failure without playing for the conference title and winning a bowl.
At Tulsa? Damn right. And I'm happy with that level of success. AGAIN, we are not vying for national Championships, but I'm proud w\of what my school has done.
quote:
deinstien wrote
Tulsa f**king blows.
The entire state f**king blows.
Only an idiot would be content in this sh**hole.
Well that's nice. Why are you so bitter?
While we're at it...
(http://www.wilddamntexan.com/kids/demotivators/Strawman.jpg)
I address all your topics ad contentions point by point. I use actual data. I challenge you to find sources.
You come back with an address and "TU football sucks." I have fished for constructive items. I have opened the door to give praise. I have complimented the other schools you mentioned. I have been careful to explain things to you.
You ridicule, change the subject, and nitpick.
And here I even offered to take you to a game and have fun some fun. Sheesh. Do fill me in on what school you went to so I can troll the internet finding things to whine about.
I'm betting deinstein is from SoCal. I have a hunch that he is....if so, he's been banned from some other forums that I frequent for being so outspoken about hating living here. If he hates it so much, he should move on.
If TU could lose some of the suburban-style businesses (fast food joints) along 11th by campus and replace it more with a Campus Corner environment that would be a big plus. Some pedestrian-oriented shops and restaurants across from TU with apartments above would be awesome. I can't wait to see their new "front door" once it's finished.
CF, my point still stands: based on the size of its student body, the Univ of Tulsa overspends on its NCAA Div I athletics... on a ratio of spending to number of students, TU spends more than TCU. And it is my opinion that TCU also overspends on its athletics... when's the next time TCU gets into a truly major bowl game or gets another Heisman Trophy winner? Was it really worth the tens of millions of dollars spent?... looking at your link, it appears TU spends $8.6 million per year on its football program but only generates $5mil per year in revenues... men's basketball is the closest to breaking even...
If you want to compare TU to other schools based on budgets for athletics, I don't think a comparison to OU or OSU is appropriate. I'd be looking at schools like Wichita State or Creighton (Omaha) or Butler (Indianapolis) or Marquette (Milwaukee), all of which are urban campuses that draw from a much larger undergraduate student body...
I've observed over the years, the disconnect between TU the athletic program... and TU the small, wanna-be ivy league school with the world class petroleum engineering dept, excellent academic depts-- which now has a great college tennis facility because Michael Case wanted TU to have one... but weak in facilities for the arts... heck, even the community college at TCC has a PAC... while TU has Tyrell Hall, but will finally get a much needed 750 seat facility soon enough...
Which is a shame because TU has benefitted alot over the years from having Tulsa Opera and Tulsa Ballet in its own backyard... while UMKC has excellent programs that help Kansas City Lyric Opera and Butler Univ has a great auditorium that has hosted Indianapolis Opera for years... Wichita State students feed into the summer stock season at Music Theatre of Wichita, OCU students and staff at Lyric Theatre-- OCU's Kirkpatrick Auditorium used to host the season every summer... TCU doesn't do much (to my knowledge) for Ft Worth's Casa Manana's shows, but the Dallas/FtW area has so many college students and performers/staff, that it really isn't an issue for them...
I just wish TU would get off the fence and do one of two things...
1. Keep the student body under 3000, go for the highest US News Top School rating it can get, dismantle the costly D-1 football program (could that $20mil in monies spent downsizing Skelly have been better spent elsewhere?!?), and go ahead and change the name from Univ of Tulsa to Kendall University........ OR...
2. Find ways to use TU's massive endowment to double the size of the student body... try for 5,000 to 7,000 undergrads, no matter whether that means giving more scholarships to deserving students or lowering standards/student-to-teacher ratio slightly to beef up the student population... if it takes tulsa from #90 on a top 100 list to #98, wouldn't it be worth it to double the impact on the area around TU and the city itself???
ps... I'm pretty sure I paid $6 to see TU soccer last year, but the Eastman Wind Ensemble concert I saw when I considered moving to Rochester, NY a few years back was FREE. [;)]
Maybe my critique of TU made you believe I'm either DoubleAA or a sockpuppet... that is not the case, never met the guy.
1) I understand TU won't ever change the name, but I'm thinking of it from the perspective of the name "Harvard" versus the name "Boston College"... the point is largely academic, since a name change will not be proposed-- I could just as easily bring up the point that my alma mater should be called Oklahoma Methodist Univ, since its endowment is almost the same and has a comparably sized student body as OBU and OCC...
2) My point is that turning TU into a top 50 school nationally and keeping up a money-losing football program year after year after year, doesn't seem compatible, from my outsider's view... if TU wants to become a school like Stanford or Northwestern or Wake Forest or Vanderbilt, I think they really need a larger student body... a higher profile conference is unlikely at this point, no?
3) I don't see how increasing the number of students would necessarily require another 100 acres of campus. There are already new apt buildings on campus... TU already seems to be expanding without adding new students... why not?
I never recommended TU become a degree factory... but your opinion is yet another reason why TU doesn't belong in NCAA Div I football... it makes no sense longterm when you will have a very limited alumni base in the short-term and likely long-term as well since TU doesn't want to expand to 4,000, let alone 5000+ students... you know the drill, TU has a great year in football or men's basketball, on the cusp of national prominence... and the coach takes the $$$ and bolts off to a higher profile school with a larger student base... where's the "point of diminishing returns?"
I'm not sure why I'm being invited to a football game.... I went to TU-BYU last year and will certainly make it to a game or two again this year.... one of my fav TU memories was seeing OSU-TU when Thurman Thomas went out and this new Barry Sanders guy was on the field... TU coach was John Cooper...
I don't think the smarter students TU is seeking will attend TU based on their athletic programs... they'll do what I did back in the day..... choose the better program in their chosen field and root for the underdog in Gonzaga or Boise or TU when they're not pulling an all-niter for midterms... [;)]
I look at the predictible ups and down of TU football and basketball over the course of decades and I just see a lot of wasteful spending..... then I see somebody like Laven Sowell who along with quite a few others over the years could have made TU into a really good music school, appealing to some excellent students and expanding the student body that way...
Many many Tulsans (including me) have supported TU for years and years despite having no real affiliation with the school... guess maybe I'm the only one who wonders what's in the water over there that causes students to badmouth the city or act like they're too good for Tulsa... some is natural for college students... ("wow, Ruf, you lived in Chicago? Why dija move here... I can't wait to leave...")
I don't generally hear this from others who may have gone to OSU, OU, SMU, etc, etc...
Anyway, I really liked Fort Worth.
That Barnes & Nobles is a pretty neat concept, huh? Who would have thought?!
Take notes, Tulsa. Take notes.
Well, Deinstein... I think these things can be cyclical... there was a time when Tulsa was much cooler than Ft. Worth... a new skyscraper with a downtown mall complete with ice-rink and performing arts center, etc, etc... and of course, a pro soccer team that played the New York Cosmos and the Chicago Sting...
(http://globalnerdy.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/uncle-ricos-time-machine.jpg)
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
Well, Deinstein... I think these things can be cyclical... there was a time when Tulsa was much cooler than Ft. Worth... a new skyscraper with a downtown mall complete with ice-rink and performing arts center, etc, etc... and of course, a pro soccer team that played the New York Cosmos and the Chicago Sting...
(http://globalnerdy.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/uncle-ricos-time-machine.jpg)
Unfortunately that seems to have become a more common refrain... (There was a time when Tulsa was much cooler than... )
As for TU, of course its a benefit to the area and the city. It did seem to kind of linger in a state of stagnation for a long time though. But lately they have been greatly improving their campus. By doing so I think they will be able to indeed grow and do so with more quality students. My guess is that any next phase of growth will include new academic buildings and will be more student friendly, done in a way that will make the campus more enjoyable.
I really like what Duke is doing by literally making a "student village" with cafeteria, laundry, bookstore, coffe shop, gym, community center, etc. on the first floor then with living above, creating a lively pedestrian friendly environment for the students.
(http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/9113/duke02centralcampus2lgug3.jpg)
(http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/8870/duke01centralcampus1lgaw7.jpg)
I think that strip on the south side of 11th would be great to have ground floor retail, and restaurants while having more student living above. Could even keep the same general stuff thats there, but have it in the first floor of 3 or 4 story buildings with a wide, tree lined sidewalk in front. Either that or clear out between 6th and 7th street all the way from TU to the Pearl District. Incorporate the canals and park space of the Pearl district and just continue that all the way to TU. Then have TU expand its campus on towards downtown by building on either side of that park space. Creating a green from TU to downtown. Wouldnt of course be all TU, around Utica the park space could have more medical and office buildings on either side of it (bet Mr Bumgarner would have a field day if that kind of development space opened up lol) Then from there to Peoria and downtown continue the Pearl District Plan.
^
If you can accomplish that in Durham, you can accomplish that anywhere...including 11th Street.
Just drove by the new student housing on 11th the other day for the first time and it is hideous. Looks like a Soviet Era development. Architect should be ashamed. TU should have known better. Post-Modern can be ugly on a stick and this sure is. God save us from cheap Post-Modern architecture. Goodbye charming 11th street.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Just drove by the new student housing on 11th the other day for the first time and it is hideous. Looks like a Soviet Era development. Architect should be ashamed. TU should have known better. Post-Modern can be ugly on a stick and this sure is. God save us from cheap Post-Modern architecture. Goodbye charming 11th street.
I agree, the new housing isn't that attractive. But it's also not horrible. OU has put in some new student housing in Norman that is much worse. Actually if the aprtments came up to the street it would be much better as the actual buildings aren't bad and sort of match the campus. They really need to plant trees, that would be a big improvement. And it would be nice to see some of the mixed-use retail/housing TheArtist speaks of along 11th street, especially just south of the new green space in between the new apartments, kind of a "book end" to that space with residential on 3 sides and Collins Hall at the north end.
quote:
Originally posted by Hometown
Just drove by the new student housing on 11th the other day for the first time and it is hideous. Looks like a Soviet Era development. . . . Goodbye charming 11th street.
Charming:
(http://www.insiderpages.com/photos/business/full/340/3601437340/11606.jpg)
I don't have any shots of the abandoned lots or boarded up buildings to show how charming it was.
The "new" housing is the same as the housing that has been on campus for 5 - 7 years now. It is designed to blend in to the building that have been on campus for 80 years or so while not appearing dated.
And comparisons to Soviet architecture are so off the mark I won't bother pointing out the differences. They were hovels. These are bright, spacious and non-imposing. Go Google "soviet apartment" and find something appealing.
I'm not claiming they are grand works of architectural wonder. They are practical on campus housing. But to say they are "hideous," that someone should be "ashamed" or that they resembled Soviet apartments is just not accurate.
And cheap. lol. ~$150,000,000+ in construction in the last few years and it's cheap? Wow. Fairly confident that is the most any private group has spent in Tulsa in the same time period. If you would like something more appealing to you, they accept donations and they are tax write-offs. Chip in your 2 cents.
And reminiscing about a charming stretch of 11th Street? Empty lot, bright yellow head shop, bright blue used record store (how often do you go to it now? and did I mention they were run down and un-mowed most of the time), abandoned building, boarded up bar, empty lot, diner, Wendy's. Not a stretch most would consider charming.
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They really need to plant trees, that would be a big improvement.
Go to 11th and 8th Street. They have dozens of trees waiting to be planted.
I agree. It isn't perfection. The village concept would have been cool and I hope they adopt it if they expand more. But then we will hear how college campuses need more green space or how they tore down a neighborhood just for green space. Damned if you do...
Kind of like Tulsa building on campus housing to start with. It was "just a commuter school" now they are "and grabbers" and ugly. OSU-Tulsa needs to build on campus housing, when they do I'm sure they'll get the same treatment. Damn if you don't.
This conversation is going in circle after circle. I don't mean to say you can't have your opinion. Just pointing out WHY it appears that way and why it is frustrating to hear such harsh criticism.
Cannon I grew up here and hung out on 11th and I don't need to see one of your pictures to know that 11th street had a certain charm that has now been lost, at least in the TU area.
I know you are a TU fan but they have made a serious mistake that we will have to live.
Doesn't mean TU is all bad, just very poorly advised in regards to these new structures.
And cosmetic adjustments to reduce the error aren't going to help much. This is just downright unfortunate for all of us.
Their argument is regressive. All they will say is well look at what WAS there...while we will say what SHOULD be there.
No one here is saying they miss what was on that side of 11th besides a few of us who liked the Metro Diner and a few potheads at a head shop who hate eminent domain from a PRIVATE university.
My argument (and I think most others?) is that you could have done better. I gave you a solid example with the TCU bookstore and you went right back to the damn what WAS there argument.
HT, I can not attest to what was there in the 1950's. And I really don't care in this discussion. All I know was what was there in 2000 and what is there now. The area has been improved.
deinstein, I agree that they could have done better. But they have to balance practicality with function. A new bookstore just wasn't going to happen (there are 4 bookstores within 3 miles of there), a "village" wasn't needed, parking garages are too expensive. Clearly it isn't perfect, but it's not the pit of despair built atop what was a "charming" street scape either.
I stayed in downtown Ft. Worth recently (first time in at least 10 years) which I found to be very similar to Tulsa and Oklahoma City but more lively mainly because there were more restaurants and even a few retail shops in the actual CBD. I stayed next to Sundance Square which the main entertainment district downtown but it appears the actual 'square' is a parking lot which was strange. They have an AMC movie theatre and a Barnes & Noble in this area and at least a dozen restaurants mostly along Main which has their beautiful courthouse at one end and the convention center at the other. By the time you get to the area around the convention center the downtown is pretty dead, really anywhere outside of the few blocks around Sundance Square and the Bass Operahouse. That being said I would still say Tulsa's downtown is 'nicer' than Fort Worth's and better connected to surrounding neighborhoods, which is surprising considering we have the IDL, and that is for a city twice the size of Tulsa. Building up a Sundance Square-type area, which very well could be happening with Blue Dome, is the key for attracting more people to downtown.
I love downtown Ft. Worth..I spent a week there last year and a week this year at the Embassy Suites Downtown. Really, really nice to walk around at night.
I prefer it to Dallas, actually.
Don't throw stuff at me, BUT there are several FREE!!!! parking lots around downtown FW (ahem, OKC) which I think is cool. I HATE paying to park at freaking Bricktown.