The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

Short Version:

Dear neighbors, comply.  Love Russia (this means you Ukraine, we poisoned your president we can poison your nation).

The version as I understand it:

A province of Georgia (South Ossetia) was populated by the Russians in the "good old days" as Russian factories were build and the Soviet Union took over mines and other industry. They simply brought in ethnic Russians to fill jobs in insta cities. As they did in many places.

When Georgia declared independence upon the fall of the Union these now-displaced peoples (as well as those in the Ukraine, Uzbek, etc.) no longer enjoyed the "more equal" status of ethnic Russians. Other ethnic minority factions in Georgia were again minorities and wanted their own country (not just Russians).  The province was not happy and declared itself separate in the 1990s. Cue a civil war... eventually an uneasy peace with Russian and Georgian peace keepers.

Recently Russia has been rattling the saber. Fly overs of Georgian air space. Mass military exercises on the border. They even dropped a couple bombs in Georgia "by mistake" (why were you flying over their territory anyway?).

Recently tank battalions massed on the border. The Georgians moved in to the province in force to make sure the Russians new it was still THEIR territory (I don't really get that, seems like suicide but perhaps they figured they were going to be attacked and had to do something). The Russians said their military that in the province was now under threat and within an hour a couple tank battalions were in Georgia (strange that they were right there, huh?).

Russia has proceeded in the action as if at war, described as a "well organized invasion." It has bombed command and control facilities, power plants, 4 airports and air bases in Georgia. The capital city of Tskhinvali has been "raised" by areal bombardment. The University and central hospital included. “It looks like Stalingrad in 1943,” said Dmitry Medoev, a Moscow representative of the separatist South Ossetia government. “Everything is burnt and destroyed.”

Essentially they will cause enough damage to Georgia that they cannot nor will continue a meaningful fight. There is also an oil pipeline that would be nice to control (full 1% of the worlds crude) that gets fuel to Europe via the Caspian (read: not Russia). Then they will graciously declare peace and annex the province.

Worked well in Yugoslavia, Romania... or in the Sudetenland for that matter.  Just going to protect our citizens and stop the fighting, nothing to see here...

The US has advisers in Georgia. I believe less than 200. Georgia has recalled it's troops from Iraq to join the fighting at home (Third largest troop contributor to Iraq). We may help transport their troops from Iraq.

According to the Russians, they bombed the city to oblivion to stop the invading Georgians from their campaign of ethnic cleansing. Alternatively, the invasion is a response to the wounding 3 peace keepers in an artillery attack on "rebels."  "It is sad, but this will provoke retaliatory measures," he said from Beijing, where he is attending today's Olympics opening ceremony.

Goergia and the Ukraine are both democracies with largely implanted Russian minorities that want to join NATO. Russia is not happy about this. It is showing it's neighbors what happens when you ally with Western powers that are not prepared to defend you militarily.



http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080808.wossetia09/BNStory/International/home
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/09/world/europe/09georgia.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&bl&ei=5087&en=d1e8c093fe19df1b&ex=1218427200
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4483968.ece


My friend in St. Petersburg emailed me that the Russia media (which is now mostly state run) has reported that Russia has strengthened it's peace keepers in Georgia after they were attacked.  No mention of areal bombardment of cities, or the impression that there was actual fighting.  They are now reporting that Georgia leveled the city and the reports in the "western media are lies."

I'm not siding with the rebels or the Georgians, but the Russians side of the story seems a bit off.

FYI, the Georgian military has:

Budget:  $1bil USD

37,000 active troops
100,000 reserve
and mandatory conscription for all 18 year olds of 18 months (read: population knows how to fight)

~300 Tanks (top line is the T-72)
~400 APC/light assault
~260 heavy artillery pieces (~100 self propelled)

~60 fighters (mig-25 top line)
~10 bombers
~100 choppers (more modern)

Decent air defenses and a small, French supplied Navy.

Certainly not a real hardy foe, but enough to put up a fight if they really want to.  Most of their equipment is soviet era designs (if not manufacture).  But the army appears professional anyway.

RUSSIA:

Budget $40BIL

Troops - 1mil, 3.7mil reserve

Tanks:  23,000
APC - 25,000
Artillery - 30,000

Fighters: 800
Bombers: 900
Chopper: 350
Missile Defense: 14,000

Navy:  50 Boomers, 50 Hunter subs, 40 destroyers, 30 frigates (no carriers) (~170 ships, 120 active)

The bad news is their equipment is mostly old crap, their modern stuff has been shown to be junk (see Israel bombing Syria), and their military is notoriously poorly trained.  The bad news (for Georgia) is simple numbers. See what I'm getting at?


(US:

$580 BILLION

1.4mil active
1.4 mil reserve


Tanks:  19,000
APC - 24,000
Artillery - 5,300
Missile Defense: 34,000

Fighters: 3,802 (includes 122 5th generation fighter/F-22)
Bombers: 240 conventional + 21 stealth bombers
Attack: 460 (warthogs, F/A18's)
Chopper: a crap ton
(our numbers are hard to figure since airforce and navy each have aircraft)

Navy:  280 active ships.  Including 11 aircraft carriers and 2 more under construction.

Fun facts: more military aircraft than the rest of the world combined.  More aircraft carriers then...  More helicopters than... More "active" ships than (Russia and North Korea each have 700 ships, half of Russias and most of NK are not functional.  NK looks really good on paper)... spend more money than everyone else (U.S.A - ~623 BIL, everyone else, $500Bil).

I wonder if they'll spare Savannah this time.

Wait, you meant *that* Georgia.  Never mind.

Russia freaks me out more and more.  They're seemingly willing to go farther than just about any other country to achieve their goals.  And that includes making ridiculous claims on Ossetia, a region of about 40k souls who was last part of Russia in the 19th century.

There's got to be an ulterior motive for this, and not just annexing a sympathetic province from a much smaller country.  Maybe it's a resource grab, or a way to destabilize the whole region. Maybe something else.  It just seems like such a pissant little place to go to war over.

Goergia has withdrawn from the provincial capital as a "goodwill gesture" and offered a cease fire. no response.

The bombing has expanded to military basis throughout Georgia as well as a couple other cities and an industrial port. As a result Georgia has declared a state of war for 15 days.

Georgia claims to have shot down 10 Russian planes, Russia admitted to losing 2 yesterday.  Georgian TV (private and a free press) showed images of at least 3 downed planes including one dead Russian Colonel's ID.

Russian planes are also providing close air support to a separatist groups in a Western province (Akhalia or something).

I predict Russia fully occupies South Ossetia and marches a little south of there to threaten the capital and also, by happenstance, take control of the oil pipeline.  It will either occupy or take defacto control of the Western province.  It will declare the peace keepers are needed to protect the population and act as a buffer zone from the Georgian aggressors (what they said on every other land grab they made in history).

IN OTHER NEWS, Russian media (state controlled) is now reporting that the United States orchestrated the Georgian attack on Russia with the help of the Ukraine.  The Russian eq. of Secratary of Defense stated that the US has "prepared the force, which destroys everything in South Ossetia, attacks civilians and hospitals. They are responsible for this."

The official also accused Georgia of ethnic cleansing, leveling villages, destroying hospitals, and other acts that have cause Russia to "question its consistency as a state."  That sounds dangerously like "we should do the world a favor and wipe them off the map."

http://english.pravda.ru/hotspots/conflicts/09-08-2008/106046-russia_georgia-0

Actual Russian Headlines:  

"Putin: Georgia’s actions are criminal, whereas Russia’s actions are absolutely legitimate."

"The two-faced, underhanded foreign policy of Georgia"

"Russian FM: Georgia’s treacherous attack"

In other Russian news (surely not related):
"NPR: National Public Radio or Nothing Positive about Russia?"

"Karadzic’s Arrest Puts the Lid on the FAKE War on Terror"

"Russia may eventually retrieve its military presence in Cuba and Vietnam"

"Russia launches another ballistic missile, prepares to create sea-based carrier systems"

"USA still afraid of Soviet weapons"

My favorite by far:
"Cindy McCain Visits Serbian Kosovo"  which includes this... which I did not alter at all:

quote:

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she became addicted to painkillers after undergoing two spinal surgeries. The addiction eventually led her to steal pills from her own American Voluntary Medical Team." This was a charity she was working for that was set up to help impoverished kids.

The declaration of independence by Albanian mafia leaders, which has implicitly been recognized by Cindy McCain's visit to Pristina, is a major threat to global peace and security and shows a major deficit in understanding the implications of one‘s actions.

This is nothing new for John McCain, a subject which will be explored in depth in the near future. Sending his wife to Kosovo confirms that McCain accepts Clinton's fraudulent version of what happened there and that he agrees with Bush and wishes to continue as a neo-Bush complete with his total ineptitude as a leader in all respects.

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First, it goes from visiting Kosovo to drug addict in about 4 sentences.  Then the mafia declared independence and the kicker:  total ineptitude as a leader in all respects.

That's just awesome.

Hm, look, there's a major oil pipeline running smack through the center of Georgia.  Go figure.

(http://media.npr.org/programs/morning/features/2006/apr/caspian_pipeline/pipeline_map650.jpg)

Cribbed from the excellent blog The Oil Drum. (http://"http://www.theoildrum.com/")

The Times Online has this (http://"http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4484849.ece") nice little summary:

 

quote:

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The conflict that has erupted in the Caucasus has set alarm bells ringing because of Georgia's pivotal role in the global energy market.  

Georgia has no significant oil or gas reserves of its own but it is a key transit point for oil from the Caspian and central Asia destined for Europe and the US.

Crucially, it is the only practical route from this increasingly important producer region that avoids both Russia and Iran.

The 1,770km (1,100 miles) Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline, which entered service only last year, pumps up to 1 million barrels of oil per day from Baku in Azerbaijan to Yumurtalik, Turkey, where it is loaded on to supertankers for delivery to Europe and the US. Around 249km of the route passes through Georgia, with parts running only 55km from South Ossetia.

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SHORTER VERSION!
Bush and Putin weren't sitting at the Olympic games for nothing. They were talking about war. Putin said okay...bomb Iran and we will bomb Georgia. They had their talks the night of the Olympic games. Russia gets the Georgia oil, and the US gets the Iran oil. China's happy because China just owns us, and all the oil in Africa they want.

 U.S. Naval Armada Heads For Iran

http://europebusines.blogspot.com/2008/08/massive-us-naval-armada-heads-for-iran.html


Something funny going on.....like a couple of mobsters, Putin and Cheney....

FOTD:  Here's some interesting commentary on your blog link:

http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2008/08/09/iran-4/

This from the guy who is on record as saying it would be acceptable to continue the illegal occupation of Iraq for 10,000 years. Hypocrite much?


McCaint calls on Russia to withdraw from Georgia

http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSWAT00988820080808

If you don't know the difference between Iraq and Georgia invasions there you are not worth talking to. If you still believe we have occupied Iraq to steal their resources or otherwise oppress their people you're a fool.

Not too mention a UN mandate was issued.  Upon it's expiration we can only legally stay at the request of Iraq - hence the recent controversy.  So the whole "illegal war" thing is also a losing argument.

Just to be clear.  We OK'd Russia to invade our quasi ally, Russia OK'd us to invade their ally.  Then why are the Russians saying we started the war in Georgia.?  Why haven't we invaded Iran or massed troops?  to "take their oil" we will need to occupy Iran.

I also find it funny how much zeal you take in "calling out" people you don't like but when someone you do like turns out to be a dude you sit silent.  When Russia invades Georgia you somehow manage to portray the US as the bad guy.  It's really telling.

quote:

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Originally posted by FOTD
http://europebusines.blogspot.com/2008/08/massive-us-naval-armada-heads-for-iran.html.

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You're source claims it is:

quote:

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A blog hosted by the Right Honorable The Earl of Stirling, hereditary Governor & Lord Lieutenant of Canada, Lord High Admiral of Nova Scotia.

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Th Earl of Stirling as a title has been dormant since 1739.  There is also no title of "Lord Lieutenant of Canada."  Who the hell invents fake hereditary titles for them self?

The same assclown claimed last year that Israeli planes were based in Iraq and were going to bomb Iran.  

quote:

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I hold several ancient Scottish titles, Earl of Stirling, Viscount of Canada, Viscount of Stirling, Lord Alexander of Tulibody (1630), Lord Alexander of Tulibody (1633), etc., Chief of Clan Alexander, I also hold several honorific old Canadian great offices-of-state: Lord Lieutenant and Governor of Canada, Lord High Admiral of Nova Scotia, Lord Lieutenant of Nova Scotia, Lt.-Gen. of Nova Scotis (first Lord Stirling was founder of English speaking Canada in the early 1600s). I hold 3 degrees: B.Sc. in Pol. Sc. & History; M.A. in European Studies; B.Sc. in Education. I have worked on 3 addtional degrees: M.T.S. (theology); LL.B. (English Law); M.S. (Criminal Justice). I am former Scottish Editor at Burke's Peerage in London. I also hold several Scots/Canadian feudal titles. I am a widower. I have a published book, CASH FOR PEERAGES: THE SMOKING GUN, www.lulu.com/content/953682 . Listing for me as Chief of Clan Alexander at www.electricscotland.com/webclans/chiefs.htm I am available for public speaking engagements. Please contact me at: earlofstirling@yahoo.com

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lol.  He'd a generous (who can't spell "additional") AND royalty.  He's smart, he has 3 degrees (which of the 4 he listed does he not really hold?).  Bet he's rich too.  Curiously he fails to mention which school he attended.  also odd that the most official page he references is another blog.  Also, the House of Lords fails to list him:
http://www.parliament.uk/directories/house_of_lords_information_office/alphabetical_list_of_members.cfm

Seriously, I think this source is a new low even for you.  No wonder you have no touch with reality if crap like this is where you get your "news."  Tell the Earl of Sterling Viscount of Canada that he's a dude.

but thanks for the laugh.

CF....why did we invade Iraq? Not for oil? For WMD? To oppress their people or just free them by taking out Hussein?

Wait and we will see....Iran will be the final solution before the Busheviks leave office. Just like the economy, these pathetic leaders will make the next 4 years more than agony for the democrats by leaving two gigantic problems behind.

August sooprise, September sooprise or October sooprise???

Dumbya was out foxed by Puti early on and now will go out like a retaliatory dry drunk, watch.

Go start a thread backing up your claim that we started the war in Iraq for oil.  In that thread please explain the return on investment thinking to me.  Explain why we have allowed Iraq to keep ALL their oil wealth even as we spend hundreds of billions.  Explain why not even the US military that is there is free to take fuel from the Iraqis.  

Saddam was a tool who failed to comply with the terms of a peace accord, we had reason to believe he had WMDs (oops), and he funded terrorism (blow up Israeli's get a free house!).  Not too mention killing Kurds, Sunni's, and shooting at US planes.  We've been over this again and again and again.  If you don't know my perspective you haven't been paying attention.

More importantly, Russia invades a neighbor and your response is "SO, the US sucks!"  Then you site the Czar of Canada as a source.  That's just lame.

- - - -

BACK ON TOPIC.

Russia has shot over 50 missiles at the aforementioned oil pipeline.  I guess it has been unable to gain control of it, but destroying it also gives it a monopoly on fuel to Europe.  The £2 billion pipeline is the only major conduit for Central Asian resources not under Russian control, it is run by the British.  Keeping in mind that Russia has shut of gas and other fuels in the winter to get nations to comply with its demands.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/georgia/2534767/Georgia-Russia-targets-key-oil-pipeline-with-over-50-missiles.html

This is an interesting Australian article on the issue...

quote:

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If Western interests are not to be irreparably damaged, we will need to understand that they are being tested on three overlapping levels: local, regional and global. Georgia is not just a square on a chessboard, but a country that is extremely important in its own right. For two reasons, the West cannot be indifferent to what happens there. First, despite the uncultivated instincts of its President, Georgia's political culture is fundamentally democratic, its people (80% of whom support NATO membership) profoundly pro-Western, and its sense of national identity almost indestructible. Georgia can be defeated by Russia, but it can no longer submit to it, and therefore war between Georgia and Russia would be a frightening prospect even if no wider interests existed

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Essentially Russia has been prodding Georgia for so long, that Georgia HAD to stand up or submit.   It goes on to say that Russia is more than willing to pick fights with perspective NATO members and is confident there will be no response.  Of which, they are correct.  
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/the-west-cannot-afford-to-be-indifferent-to-georgias-fate-20080810-3szp.html?page=2

Georgian troops are under orders to observe a cease fire, Russia has refused to acknowledge it.  Russian forces (while denying they are escalating the conflict, also denying a naval blockade) have moved to take the town of Gori after bombarding it.    GORI is the birthplace of Stalin.  Recently voted by Russians to be the "greatest Russian of all time" (for killing about 20 million people by execution, starvation, or work camps) they would clearly like to control that town... to protect the Georgians of course.

CF....AMERIKA screwed up the war in Iraq for oil.....DUH!They had thought it would be a cake walk. Miscalculation that led to mess upon mess upon financial debacle. There has never been a doubt that these oily leaders of ours were out for future deadicated reserves....

Russia is going to be kept busy by US-assisted provocations taking place between Georgia and South Ossetia. The Security Council is meeting now on the escalation of hostilities between the two countries. Remember that Georgia is one of the countries that was the target of US-tainted "people's revolutions" where pro-US parties won disputed elections forcing out true Georgian nationalists to be replaced by US friendly hacks. The distinct possibility exists the US lured Russia into this battle as a diversion. The thing is, Georgia has been building it's military faster than any country on the planet, and we've been paying for that. We are already in up to our necks.

NOW, look at the armada headed for Iran and tell me these "leaders" of ours don't look to save face! This truly is a very big story gone south in the MSM.

The US Naval forces being assembled include the following:

Carrier Strike Group Nine
USS Abraham Lincoln (CVN72) nuclear powered supercarrier
with its Carrier Air Wing Two
Destroyer Squadron Nine:
USS Mobile Bay (CG53) guided missile cruiser
USS Russell (DDG59) guided missile destroyer
USS Momsen (DDG92) guided missile destroyer
USS Shoup (DDG86) guided missile destroyer
USS Ford (FFG54) guided missile frigate
USS Ingraham (FFG61) guided missile frigate
USS Rodney M. Davis (FFG60) guided missile frigate
USS Curts (FFG38) guided missile frigate
Plus one or more nuclear hunter-killer submarines

Peleliu Expeditionary Strike Group
USS Peleliu (LHA-5) a Tarawa-class amphibious assault carrier
USS Pearl Harbor (LSD52) assult ship
USS Dubuque (LPD8) assult ship/landing dock
USS Cape St. George (CG71) guided missile cruiser
USS Halsey (DDG97) guided missile destroyer
USS Benfold (DDG65) guided missile destroyer

Carrier Strike Group Two
USS Theodore Roosevelt (DVN71) nuclear powered supercarrier
with its Carrier Air Wing Eight
Destroyer Squadron 22
USS Monterey (CG61) guided missile cruiser
USS Mason (DDG87) guided missile destroyer
USS Nitze (DDG94) guided missile destroyer
USS Sullivans (DDG68) guided missile destroyer

USS Springfield (SSN761) nuclear powered hunter-killer submarine

IWO ESG ~ Iwo Jima Expeditionary Strike Group
USS Iwo Jima (LHD7) amphibious assault carrier
with its Amphibious Squadron Four
and with its 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit
USS San Antonio (LPD17) assault ship
USS Velia Gulf (CG72) guided missile cruiser
USS Ramage (DDG61) guided missile destroyer
USS Carter Hall (LSD50) assault ship
USS Roosevelt (DDG80) guided missile destroyer

USS Hartfore (SSN768) nuclear powered hunter-killer submarine

Carrier Strike Group Seven
USS Ronald Reagan (CVN76) nuclear powered supercarrier
with its Carrier Air Wing 14
Destroyer Squadron 7
USS Chancellorsville (CG62) guided missile cruiser
USS Howard (DDG83) guided missile destroyer
USS Gridley (DDG101) guided missile destroyer
USS Decatur (DDG73) guided missile destroyer
USS Thach (FFG43) guided missile frigate
USNS Rainier (T-AOE-7) fast combat support ship

Also likely to join the battle armada:

UK Royal Navy HMS Ark Royal Carrier Strike Group with assorted guided missile destroyers and frigates, nuclear hunter-killer submarines and support ships

French Navy nuclear powered hunter-killer submarines (likely the Amethyste and perhaps others), plus French Naval Rafale fighter jets operating off of the USS Theodore Roosevelt as the French Carrier Charles de Gaulle is in dry dock, and assorted surface warships

http://www.opednews.com/articles/1/Massive-US-Naval-Armada-He-by-Lord-Stirling-080808-541.html

And if this is not saber rattling, then shame on them. They are in for big trouble. When you lead a big armada into another country's territorial waters, you cannot (if something dire happens) point the finger and say it is that country's fault for protecting themselves. The larger question would be, what were you doing there in the first place? Like a sea of gasoline with a match being lit....

Are we really sending all these ships? I can't find anything online that doesn't source from the Canadian guy.

quote:

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Originally posted by Chris

Are we really sending all these ships? I can't find anything online that doesn't source from the Canadian guy.

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Oil is falling in price lately, the elections coming up...a well-timed air bombardment of Iran would be just the thing to bring oil back up, help rig the election, create a general diversion from other important issues....six in the Armada story yesterday.....two here  http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1218104233164&pagename=JPArticle%2FShowFull  Whichever, it sounds like the real thing is coming down. Of course I've said that before, so hopefully I'm wrong again.

In other words FOTD, the Russian media is correct and all the Western media's, China, and other Asian media's are wrong.  Has that happened before in history?

quote:

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FOTD made up that
The thing is, Georgia has been building it's military faster than any country on the planet, and we've been paying for that. We are already in up to our necks.

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Really?  Because that's not what Jane's defense, Global Firepower, or Global Security says.  They have been working hard to beef up their military.  But that would be like saying you're you've been putting extra water in your pool so you can take on the Atlantic ocean.  I listed assets above, cite better sources if you got 'em .

Other than his Lord majesty Prince of Scottland , Lord of Sterling and Empirial ruler of Canada I haven't seen much on this.  And he doesn't see fit to give any sources.  I am the Holy Roman Emperor (a totle that is no longer used) and Goddess of Lesbos (a title that never existed), and I say it's not true.  I outrank him.

I find it humorous that you are willing to believe ANY source you can find if it suits your need.   The US starts a war in Georgia by using Ukraine so Russia will crush our ally so that we can send ships to the gulf and then Russia will allow us to bomb Iran.  Tadaaa!  Step 3.  Profit.

AGAIN, please run off and start a conspiracy thread if you wish.  I appreciate your idea, but with the Grand Dragon as the primary source and the only real notion being that we have 2 carriers on the way to the gulf, it remains a far fetched theory (you will recall we had 5 Carriers in the gulf not long ago for an exercise, as well as on other occasions and failed to invade).  

I'd also be curious on how he knows where all the US battle groups are.  The pentagon only releases areas of operation, no actual deployment locations.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/2008/08/07/why-the-pentagon-thinks-attacking-iran-is-a-bad-idea.html

Why the Pentagon Thinks Attacking Iran is a Bad Idea
No one wants a nuclear Iran, but U.S. military leaders worry about the risks and strains of a third war

"An Israeli strike on Iran—with or without U.S. support—would offer all of these risks and more minuses, say senior defense officials. For this reason, in recent meetings in Israel, Mullen "conveyed his less-than-enthusiastic view of an Israeli attack," says a senior military official. Says Riedel, "From an Iranian perspective, Israel would be flying American-made F-15s and F-16s, dropping bombs made in the USA," he adds. "Within the Pentagon, not only do they see the downsides, they tend to think that if someone's going to do this, they don't want to see it outsourced to another air force."

Could we be setting a screen for Israel ala Syria?

Alright.....I never believe their smokescreens....RIP Anthony Russo!

FOTD, go start an Iran thread if you want.  It is not relevant here.
- - -

quote:

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NEW YORK, Aug. 10 -- Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov told the United States on Sunday that Georgia's democratically elected president must step down in order to settle the military conflict between the two countries, according to the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, Zalmay Khalilzad.

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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/10/AR2008081002311.html?hpid=topnews

If goes on to say:

quote:

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The meeting quickly degenerated into a quarrel between the U.S. and Russian envoys that recalled some of the most contentious U.N. spats between the United States and the Soviet Union.

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So we are either putting on a hell of an act, or  you're wrong (again).

The Russians made the same arguments you made.  1) We have no business to complain about an invasion and civilian deaths, 2) they are after oil as much as we were in Iraq and 3) we toppled a government, so can they.  never mind the fact that they carpet bombed populated cities when we sued smart bombs nor that Saddam was a war criminal and a  dictator.  Details (but fair game to point out, I might add).

Anyway, it does not look good.  They may go ahead and just take the entire country.  OR, they are setting it up so anything short of that is a relief.  I'll stand by my earlier prediction (which includes no secret pact with Russia for the USA to attack Iran).

No. No secret pact.

Putin is the world's richest man aquiring more assets, the gangster. That's the easy part.

Tit for tat....

Around 11am local time Russia's defense minster told Gordon Brown they would not be expanding their offensive.  Around 1pm local time CNN and the Gaurdian reported Russian tanks and columns in Gori and a new front near the Black Sea.

Russia's "not a navy blockade" has sunk a Georgian supply ship on it's way to port (Russia reports the ship attacked them).

France send an envoy to Georgia, Russia bombed the airport he landed at 2 hours before he touched down.

Russia has been attacking Georgia's internet and government servers for weeks:
http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/08/georgia-under-o.html
- - -

I see no sign of them letting up, each new offensive is needed to "protect Russian peacekeepers."  Also worth noting that the world and Russian media only cares what Putin has to say.  He's definitely still the man.

The road to Georgia's capital:
(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2008/08/10/russia460x276.jpg)

Sun Article (good pictures, graphics of what their armies are purported to have. I WAY over estimated Georgia by these figures):
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1540544.ece

Not good.

quote:

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Originally posted by FOTD

SHORTER VERSION!
Bush and Putin weren't sitting at the Olympic games for nothing. They were talking about war. Putin said okay...bomb Iran and we will bomb Georgia. They had their talks the night of the Olympic games. Russia gets the Georgia oil, and the US gets the Iran oil. China's happy because China just owns us, and all the oil in Africa they want.

 U.S. Naval Armada Heads For Iran

http://europebusines.blogspot.com/2008/08/massive-us-naval-armada-heads-for-iran.html


Something funny going on.....like a couple of mobsters, Putin and Cheney....

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"bomb Iran and we will bomb Georgia."

Wow, you saw Putin mouth that to Bush at the opening ceremonies too?  I think I also caught "Laura looks hot, want a snort of Wodka?"

NO, I saw, "You bombed Georgia, then we get to bomb Iran...". Besides, that lines up more with Dumbya's personality disorder.[}:)]

If the Iraq War wasn't the first petrowar of the new millenium, I hereby nominate this one as the runner up. We're gonna see much more of this kind of thing in the decades to come. And I also think we're going to see more Putins and Chavezes rather than less.  I mean, heck, give an ex-military guy the ultimate weapon (the key to the oil spigot) and see how they react.  

Wevus, no doubt the Iraq war was the first petro war.  I don't think it was a 'war for oil' in the same manner as AOX, but certainly without the oil in the region we wouldn't give two rats asses about stability nor the underlying causes to begin with (before Kuwait we were friends, BUT FOR the invasion of Kuwait Gulf II never would have happened).

To protect it's peacekeeping forces Russia has now engaged a full scale ground invasion:

quote:

---

The Kremlin said that its actions since then have been intended to strike at Georgian military forces that fired on its peacekeeping troops in South Ossetia and that it did not intend a broader offensive deeper into Georgia.

---

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1043236/Georgia-overrun-Russian-troops-scale-ground-invasion-begins.html

Russia took Gori (deeper inside Georgia), now according to several sources (Russia denied this earlier today and claimed they remain in the break away areas).  An area well outside of South Ossetia.  Some reports have Russian tanks entering the city and then withdrawing, others say it's occupied.

Russia has also taken Senaki to the West, locking up the Western province and Georgia's access to the sea - not even connected to Ossetia.  Russia has called for a surrender of the Western province of Abkhazia  as Russian tanks rolled across the border checkpoints (remember this is a limited incursion in South Ossetia to protect peace keepers).  It admits to having 10,000 troops and more than 350 pieces of armor in Abkhazia.

quote:

---

"If the Georgian troops don't take advantage of this opportunity, then an operation to eliminate them will begin," the minister said.

---

This region not related to the apparent cause of the invasion, but if Georgia doesn't pull it's army out of the Georgian territory Russia will surround and kill them all.  Makes sense.

quote:

---

The Russian prime minister [Putin] rejected calls from Georgia for a ceasefire and declared that his country would pursue its mission to its 'logical conclusion'.

---

Funny how Putin is the one calling all the shots and getting all the press.  Who was the guy that's 'really in charge' now?  

Russia has said they will sign a cease fire if Georgia leaves Ossetia and signs an accord never to enter it with military again, essentially ceeding it to the Russians.

quote:

---

Two senior Western officials said that it was unclear whether Russia intended a full invasion of Georgia but that its aims could go as far as destroying its armed forces or overthrowing  Saakashvili.

"They seem to have gone beyond the logical stopping point," one senior Western diplomat said, speaking on condition of anonymity under normal diplomatic protocol.

---

- - -


Russia, Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, Iran...  GREAT reasons to kick the oil habit.

An anonymous US source in the Pentagon says they have no evidence Gori is occupied.  It was apparently shelled and advanced on, weather the Georgians pulled out or were forced out or returned... is a matter of debate.

The article states the US was surprised by the response from Russia.

quote:

---

That the two countries were on a collision course was no surprise to anyone, but the devastating Russian response was not expected, officials said.

"We were tracking it earlier in that week and we knew that things were escalating," said a military official, who asked not to be identified. "I can tell you it moved quicker than we anticipated that first day."

---

I'm trying to take what Georgia says and corroborate it with CNN reporters (who are there) or others.  Though, I admit, I believe than more than the Russians.  I see Russia losing far more than gaining here, they were a mildly annoying growingly totalitarian state that had open relations with Europe... I'm guessing the general opinion and relations chill considerably.

Now for the really important and relevant stuff, CF.

What's this going to do to the price of 7.62 x 39 ammo and AK-47's?

quote:

---

Originally posted by cannon_fodder

An anonymous US source in the Pentagon says they have no evidence Gori is occupied.  It was apparently shelled and advanced on, weather the Georgians pulled out or were forced out or returned... is a matter of debate.

The article states the US was surprised by the response from Russia.

quote:

---

That the two countries were on a collision course was no surprise to anyone, but the devastating Russian response was not expected, officials said.

"We were tracking it earlier in that week and we knew that things were escalating," said a military official, who asked not to be identified. "I can tell you it moved quicker than we anticipated that first day."

---

I'm trying to take what Georgia says and corroborate it with CNN reporters (who are there) or others.  Though, I admit, I believe than more than the Russians.  I see Russia losing far more than gaining here, they were a mildly annoying growingly totalitarian state that had open relations with Europe... I'm guessing the general opinion and relations chill considerably.

---

Nah. Russia's growing, resourceful, and getting richer while Europe and the west go sideways. Europe will still need Russia more than Russia needs the westies even after this short Pipeline War. The mobsters are in control. Sharp move on the part of the Russians. No surprise that they are master strategists: Chess is their national game.

What the hell is McCain trying to portray? Perhaps our president, "who has looked into Putin's soul" can provide some insight into how a dry drunk gets bluffed?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Conan71

Now for the really important and relevant stuff, CF.

What's this going to do to the price of 7.62 x 39 ammo and AK-47's?

---

Nothing. This war is over. Goliath won while giving our president the finger.

Cannon? You out there? Where's your drum beat? On vacation?


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/#26145967
Rachel Maddow totally nails McCain for his knee-jerk embrace of military solutions. "The neocon position has been that using military force is something that is precise, that has predictable consequences, it always gets us what we want, and no Americans die. And they've got this magical idea of American military omnipotence, that we can use our military anywhere to accomplish any sort of objective and there will never be any sort of blow back. Americans just don't believe it anymore. It's a fairy tale." [quote from last minute of commentary]

 Oh the irony when it comes to the Repiglican Potty.

Unless you've vacated, I'd watch it.

FOTD is a patriot..... NOT a Fascist.

BP shuts pipeline on fears of Georgian instability: (http://"http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8e85a732-6866-11dd-a4e5-0000779fd18c.html?nclick_check=1")

 

quote:

---

BP shut down a pipeline carrying Caspian oil from Azerbaijan to the Georgian Sea on Tuesday citing concern about security in Georgia.  Toby Odone, a BP spokesman, said the 150,000 barrels a day pipeline from Baku to Supsa on the Georgian Black Sea had been closed as a “security precaution.”

 -snip-

Mr Odone said BP was unaware of any attacks on oil and gas pipelines in Georgia despite Georgian claims that Russian warplanes had bombed the pipelines.

“We always knew the region was unstable and we will just have to wait and see what happens,” he said

-snip-

“Recent escalation in the military engagement between Russia and Georgia poses a threat to certain key oil and gas pipelines which transit Georgia, the IEA said in a report issued shortly before Russia declared a ceasefire in Georgia.

The pipelines, built by foreign consortia with strong political backing from the US, have eased Russia’s stranglehold over oil and gas exports from the landlocked Caspian region.

---

I'm not usually an oil conspiracy theorist, but this one's just jumping off the page at me.  Welcome to the 21st century version of the Great Game (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Game").

Apparently wrong again FOTD:

quote:

---

, Georgia (AP) — Russian troops and paramilitaries rolled into the strategic Georgian city of Gori on Wednesday, apparently violating a truce designed to end the conflict that has uprooted tens of thousands and scarred the Georgian landscape.

---

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gDNLWfQWKrQc48pITBUg9KT_6oVwD92HIM080

Russia rolled more tanks into Gori, of course they denied it... until the AP played video footage.  Then they admitted it and pulled back, taking up positions just outside the city (about 15 miles from South Ossetia).

They also entirely hold the Western province and have "disarmed" the Georgian military there, also after the cease fire went into effect.

Boats have been set on fire in the Black Sea harbor.

Russia essentially has now said that we either give up on Georgia or they will not help us with N. Korea and Iran in re the nuclear issues.  Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Ukraine have all condemned Russia, along with the EU, UN and most EU nations.  Belarus has even withheld support (they are part of the Russian Federation technically).

Russia has what it wants, by taking more they can "negotiate" to keep exactly what they want.  Though it appears they will fail in their quest to get or destroy the pipeline.

quote:

---

Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Apparently wrong again FOTD:

quote:

---

, Georgia (AP) — Russian troops and paramilitaries rolled into the strategic Georgian city of Gori on Wednesday, apparently violating a truce designed to end the conflict that has uprooted tens of thousands and scarred the Georgian landscape.

---

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gDNLWfQWKrQc48pITBUg9KT_6oVwD92HIM080

Russia rolled more tanks into Gori, of course they denied it... until the AP played video footage.  Then they admitted it and pulled back, taking up positions just outside the city (about 15 miles from South Ossetia).

They also entirely hold the Western province and have "disarmed" the Georgian military there, also after the cease fire went into effect.

Boats have been set on fire in the Black Sea harbor.

Russia essentially has now said that we either give up on Georgia or they will not help us with N. Korea and Iran in re the nuclear issues.  Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Ukraine have all condemned Russia, along with the EU, UN and most EU nations.  Belarus has even withheld support (they are part of the Russian Federation technically).

Russia has what it wants, by taking more they can "negotiate" to keep exactly what they want.  Though it appears they will fail in their quest to get or destroy the pipeline.

---

I'm not wrong....I'm the devil's advocate!

It's our administration that's wrong! US troops to fly in to McGeorgia

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/us-troops-to-fly-in-to-georgia-893917.html

Where the hell is Dumbya gonna get troops? Out of his arse?

Starting a war with Russia will certainly be about a 70 year war. Something McCain will relish. Real men go to Moscow. Just ask Hitler or Napoleon. Since we have global warming, our troops won't have to face the -20 degree weather; it will only be -2....


Stupidest administration ever!

Here Cannon:
http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/5462

Russia and Georgia: All About Oil

And here from one of your favorite sources:
Georgia -- A Blow to US Energy
http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/0,1518,572053,00.html

The Pipeline War 8-8-08

Placing these events into wider context is important to fully understand their complexity. Articles such as this one should be read and considered to avoid myopic thinking.

 In other words, in Eurasia, the Middle East and Central Asia, it's always about oil. Let's try to get past that level of analysis. Shall we?

quote:

---

Originally posted by FOTD

Here Cannon:
http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/5462

Russia and Georgia: All About Oil

And here from one of your favorite sources:
Georgia -- A Blow to US Energy
http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/0,1518,572053,00.html

The Pipeline War 8-8-08

Placing these events into wider context is important to fully understand their complexity. Articles such as this one should be read and considered to avoid myopic thinking.

 In other words, in Eurasia, the Middle East and Central Asia, it's always about oil. Let's try to get past that level of analysis. Shall we?

---

Two comments:

Op-Ed

and

Op-Ed

Must be so because one columnist thinks it's so.

Come now. Only the jingoistic would have reason to believe otherwise....op-ed? So what?

MORE....

"This is a tale of US expansion not Russian aggression. War in the Caucasus is as much the product of an American imperial drive as local conflicts. It's likely to be a taste of things to come..."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/14/russia.georgia

"You'd be hard put to recall after all the fury over Russian aggression that it was actually Georgia that began the war last Thursday with an all-out attack on South Ossetia to "restore constitutional order" - in other words, rule over an area it has never controlled since the collapse of the Soviet Union. Nor, amid the outrage at Russian bombardments, have there been much more than the briefest references to the atrocities committed by Georgian forces against citizens it claims as its own in South Ossetia's capital Tskhinvali. Several hundred civilians were killed there by Georgian troops last week, along with Russian soldiers operating under a 1990s peace agreement: "I saw a Georgian soldier throw a grenade into a basement full of women and children," one Tskhinvali resident, Saramat Tskhovredov, told reporters on Tuesday."

"By any sensible reckoning, this is not a story of Russian aggression, but of US imperial expansion and ever tighter encirclement of Russia by a potentially hostile power. That a stronger Russia has now used the South Ossetian imbroglio to put a check on that expansion should hardly come as a surprise. What is harder to work out is why Saakashvili launched last week's attack and whether he was given any encouragement by his friends in Washington."



You have got to really dig around the MSM anymore. They don't report they just entertain.

PAY ATTENTION KIDDIES!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/#26186565
"we are all Georgians." McCain (R-Idiot)
 We are not, McShame.

The anti olympics!Oh my gawd...it's 3 AM
"Oh war...it's just gawds way of teaching Americans geography...." J. Stewart

McCain sends Lieberman and Graham to McGeorgia
http://lonesomemongoose.wordpress.com/2008/08/14/mccain-sends-lieberman-and-graham-to-georgia/

"But considering that one of the main lines of attack Republicans are pushing against Obama these days is that he’s presumptuously declared himself president before Election Day, it’s a little curious that the GOP nominee thinks sending campaign surrogates to visit the war is a good idea."

Too many chefs....err, chiefs.

I liked my country better when it had principles and moral authority.

More higher education on McGeorgia!:

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20080812_georgia_war_a_neocon_election_ploy/

Georgia War a Neocon Election Ploy?
By Robert Scheer

"Is it possible that this time the October surprise was tried in August, and that the garbage issue of brave little Georgia struggling for its survival from the grasp of the Russian bear was stoked to influence the U.S. presidential election?

Before you dismiss that possibility, consider the role of one Randy Scheunemann, for four years a paid lobbyist for the Georgian government who ended his official lobbying connection only in March, months after he became Republican presidential candidate John McCain’s senior foreign policy adviser.

Previously, Scheunemann was best known as one of the neoconservatives who engineered the war in Iraq when he was a director of the Project for a New American Century. It was Scheunemann who, after working on the McCain 2000 presidential campaign, headed the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, which championed the U.S. invasion of Iraq.

There are telltale signs that he played a similar role in the recent Georgia flare-up. How else to explain the folly of his close friend and former employer, Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, in ordering an invasion of the breakaway region of South Ossetia, an invasion that clearly was expected to produce a Russian counterreaction? It is inconceivable that Saakashvili would have triggered this dangerous escalation without some assurance from influential Americans he trusted, like Scheunemann, that the United States would have his back. Scheunemann long guided McCain in these matters, even before he was officially running foreign policy for McCain’s presidential campaign.

In 2005, while registered as a paid lobbyist for Georgia, Scheunemann worked with McCain to draft a congressional resolution pushing for Georgia’s membership in NATO. A year later, while still on the Georgian payroll, Scheunemann accompanied McCain on a trip to that country, where they met with Saakashvili and supported his bellicose views toward Russia’s Vladimir Putin.

Scheunemann is at the center of the neoconservative cabal that has come to dominate the Republican candidate’s foreign policy stance in a replay of the run-up to the war against Iraq. These folks are always looking for a foreign enemy on which to base a new Cold War, and with the collapse of Saddam Hussein’s regime, it was Putin’s Russia that came increasingly to fit the bill.

Yes, it sounds diabolical, but that may be the most accurate way to assess the designs of the McCain campaign in matters of war and peace. There is every indication that the candidate’s demonization of Russian leader Putin is an even grander plan than the previous use of Saddam to fuel American militarism with the fearsome enemy that it desperately needs.

McCain gets to look tough with a new Cold War to fight while Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama, scrambling to make sense of a more measured foreign policy posture, will seem weak in comparison. Meanwhile, the dire consequences of the Bush legacy that McCain has inherited, from the disaster of Iraq to the economic meltdown, conveniently will be ignored. But the military-industrial complex, which has helped bankroll the neoconservatives, will be provided with an excuse for ramping up a military budget that is already bigger than that of the rest of the world combined.

What is at work here is a neoconservative, self-fulfilling prophecy in which Russia is turned into an enemy that expands its largely reduced military, and Putin is cast as the new Josef Stalin bogeyman, evoking images of the old Soviet Union. McCain has condemned a “revanchist Russia” that should once again be contained. Although Putin has been the enormously popular elected leader of post-Communist Russia, it is assumed that imperialism is always lurking, not only in his DNA but in that of the Russian people.

How convenient to forget that Stalin was a Georgian, and indeed if Russian troops had occupied the threatened Georgian town of Gori they would have found a museum still honoring the local boy, who made good by seizing control of the Russian revolution. Indeed five Russian bombs were allegedly dropped on Gori’s Stalin Square on Tuesday.

It should also be mentioned that the post-Communist Georgians have imperial designs on South Ossetia and Abkhazia. What a stark contradiction that the United States, which championed Kosovo’s independence from Serbia, now is ignoring Georgia’s invasion of its ethnically rebellious provinces.

For McCain to so fervently embrace Scheunemann’s neoconservative line of demonizing Russia in the interest of appearing tough during an election campaign is a reminder that a senator can be old and yet wildly irresponsible. "

My conspiracies can beat-up your conspiracies.

Nice hit into left field prieten de la diavolul.

Another op-ed you can't find in Dumbf*ckistan.

Except at TNF: Op-Ed Columnist
Russia Is Not Jamaica
 http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/17/opinion/17dowd.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin            

 By MAUREEN DOWD
Published: August 16, 2008
WASHINGTON

America’s back in the cold war and W.’s back on vacation.

Talk about your fearful symmetry.

After eight years, the president’s gut remains gullible. He’ll go out as he came in — ignoring reality; failing to foresee, prevent or even prepare for disasters; misinterpreting intelligence reports; misreading people; and handling crises in ways that makes them exponentially worse.

He has spent 469 days of his presidency kicking back at his ranch, and 450 days cavorting at Camp David. And there’s still time to mountain-bike through another historic disaster.

As Russian troops continued to manhandle parts of Georgia on Friday, President Bush chastised Russian leaders that “bullying and intimidation are not acceptable ways to conduct foreign policy in the 21st century” — and then flew off to Crawford.

His words might have carried more weight if he, Cheney and Rummy had not kicked off the 21st century with a ham-fisted display of global bullying and intimidation modeled after Sherman’s march through the other Georgia.

We knew we could count on the cheerleader in chief to be jumping around like a kid in Beijing with bikini-clad beach volleyball players while the Re-Evil Empire was sending columns of tanks into its former republic. (Georgia made the mistake of baiting the bear.)

If only W. had taken the rest of his presidency as seriously as he’s taken his sports outings.

When I interviewed him at the start of his first presidential run in 1999, he took an obvious shot and told me, “I believe the big issues are going to be China and Russia.”

But after 9/11, he let Cheney, Rummy and the neocons gull him into a destructive obsession with Iraq. While America has been bogged down and bled dry, China and Russia are plumping up. China has bought so much of America that we’d be dead Peking ducks if they pulled their investments out of our market, and Russia has transformed itself from a pauper nation to a land filled with millionaires — all through our addiction to oil.

What was so galling about watching W.’s giddy sightseeing at the Olympics was that it underscored China’s rise as a superpower and, thanks to the administration’s derelict foreign and economic policies, America’s fade-out. It’s as though China has become us and we’ve become Europe. Like Russia, China has also been showing jagged authoritarian ways and ignoring America’s preaching, including W.’s tame criticism as he flew into Beijing to revel in the spectacle of China’s ascension.

Despite his 1999 prediction that Russia and China would be key to security in the world, W. never bothered to study up on them. In 2006, at the Group of Eight summit meeting in St. Petersburg, Russia, a microphone caught some of the inane remarks of W. to the Chinese president, Hu Jintao.

“This is your neighborhood,” W. said. “It doesn’t take you long to get home. How long does it take you to get home? Eight hours? Me, too. Russia’s a big country and you’re a big country.”

President Bush and his Russian “expert” Condi have played it completely wrong with Russia from the start. W. saw a “trustworthy” soul in a razor-eyed K.G.B. agent who has never been a good guy for a single hour. Now the Bush crowd, which can do nothing about it, is blustering about how Russian aggression “must not go unanswered,” as Cheney put it. (W.’s other Russian expert, Bob Gates, was, as always, the only voice of realism, noting, “I don’t see any prospect for the use of military force by the United States in this situation.”)

The Bush administration may have a sentimental attachment to Georgia because it sent 2,000 troops to Iraq as part of the fig-leaf Coalition of the Willing, and because Poppy Bush and James Baker were close to Georgia’s first president, Eduard Shevardnadze.

But with this country’s military and moral force so depleted, the Bushies can hardly tell Russia to stop doing what they themselves did in Iraq: unilaterally invade a country against the will of the world to scare the bejesus out of some leaders in the region they didn’t like.

W. and Condi are suddenly waking up to how vicious Vladimir is. In a press conference with Condi on Friday, Mikheil Saakashvili, the president of Georgia, chided the West for enabling Russia to resume its repressive tactics.

“Unfortunately, today we are looking evil directly in the eye,” he said. “And today this evil is very strong, very nasty and very dangerous, for everybody, not only for us.”

As Michael Specter, the New Yorker writer who has written extensively about Russia, observed: “There was a brief five-year period when we could get away with treating Russia like Jamaica — that’s over. Now we have to deal with them like grown-ups who have more nuclear weapons than anybody except us.”

Putin blames US for Georgia role

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7586605.stm

"Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has accused the US of provoking the conflict in Georgia, possibly for domestic election purposes. "

No way....sarc/on

more:http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/29/putin.transcript/


Where's Fodder been lately?

How many things people give their heed to that are not worth the time of day? yet the biggest folly is thinking to play the men for their people by moving the battlements to and fro only to find the stakes are too high, and the game not fair.  May the sword ever be beaten into a plowshare, and the spear into a pruninghook.

quote:

---

Originally posted by rhymnrzn

How many things people give their heed to that are not worth the time of day? yet the biggest folly is thinking to play the men for their people by moving the battlements to and fro only to find the stakes are too high, and the game not fair.  May the sword ever be beaten into a plowshare, and the spear into a pruninghook.

---

In relations between countries, war represents failure. No responsible leader promotes it, and no military leader wants it. Its not a part of intelligent foreign policy. I like the philosophy of martial arts: prepare for defense with constant training of both mind and body but only use the disciplin when forced to. If only GB jr. had taken martial arts instead of cheerleading.[;)]

quote:

---

Originally posted by waterboy

quote:

---

Originally posted by rhymnrzn

How many things people give their heed to that are not worth the time of day? yet the biggest folly is thinking to play the men for their people by moving the battlements to and fro only to find the stakes are too high, and the game not fair.  May the sword ever be beaten into a plowshare, and the spear into a pruninghook.

---

In relations between countries, war represents failure. No responsible leader promotes it, and no military leader wants it. Its not a part of intelligent foreign policy. I like the philosophy of martial arts: prepare for defense with constant training of both mind and body but only use the disciplin when forced to. If only GB jr. had taken martial arts instead of cheerleading.[;)]

---

My nominee for post of the day.

quote:

---

Originally posted by cannon_fodder

If you don't know the difference between Iraq and Georgia invasions there you are not worth talking to. If you still believe we have occupied Iraq to steal their resources or otherwise oppress their people you're a fool.

---

McCain says we went to war for oil:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hU2OgcnorBs (http://"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hU2OgcnorBs")

quote:

---

Originally posted by altruismsuffers

quote:

---

Originally posted by cannon_fodder

If you don't know the difference between Iraq and Georgia invasions there you are not worth talking to. If you still believe we have occupied Iraq to steal their resources or otherwise oppress their people you're a fool.

---

McCain says we went to war for oil:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hU2OgcnorBs (http://"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hU2OgcnorBs")

---

Apart from posting a clip from bathtub boy, what actual proof do you have that we're stealing or misappropriating Iraqi oil?

Have you bothered to look into how much oil was pumped pre and post war?  Have you looked into how money pumped from Iraqi oil wells in appropriated? If we went in for oil why aren't we seeing any profits from it?  Seems fairly ignorant to go to war for oil and then forget to take it.

I'm guessing other than listening to bathtub boy you haven't done a bit of actual research, but that's par for the course for you...

Bathtub Boy? Are you referring to me? Man, you have devolved.

Someone has to be the last believer that our motives in jumping into Iraq were something other than what insiders have reported. That must be you. Enjoy.

quote:

---

Originally posted by waterboy

Bathtub Boy? Are you referring to me? Man, you have devolved.

Someone has to be the last believer that our motives in jumping into Iraq were something other than what insiders have reported. That must be you. Enjoy.

---

Where were you involved in that post anywhere?  I was referring to Olbergasm in the video.  Sorry for any confusion.  I though quoting altruismsniffer was enough to make it clear.

But since you responded to the post, what proof is there that we invaded Iraq for oil?  If we did, we forgot the oil.

quote:

---

Originally posted by iplaw

quote:

---

Originally posted by waterboy

Bathtub Boy? Are you referring to me? Man, you have devolved.

Someone has to be the last believer that our motives in jumping into Iraq were something other than what insiders have reported. That must be you. Enjoy.

---

Where were you involved in that post anywhere?  I was referring to Olbergasm in the video.  Sorry for any confusion.  I though quoting altruismsniffer was enough to make it clear.

But since you responded to the post, what proof is there that we invaded Iraq for oil?  If we did, we forgot the oil.

---

I didn't make the allegation that we invaded for oil. I imagine there was a multitude of reasons we did and the securing of future oil stream would certainly have been one of them. It took 30 years for the public to find out that oil companies had coveted the potential offshore drilling potential in the Tonkin Gulf area and may have expressed that interest to a certain Texan who was president at the time.

But the reasons that were used for invading Iraq are pretty much suspect now as insiders are beginning to leak their stories on radio, print and news interviews. Lots of lies exposed, lots of half truths and spin. They can't all be whiny liberals can they?  Anyway, why do you think anyone posting on this site would have proof that you would accept?

My questions were easy to answer.  The facts on Iraqi oil production, sale and revenue distribution are available for anyone to review.

The Iraqi's control all of it, they retain all profits from the sale of their oil.

How stupid of us to invade for oil and then give it back to the Iraqis...

quote:

---

Originally posted by iplaw

My questions were easy to answer.  The facts on Iraqi oil production, sale and revenue distribution are available for anyone to review.

The Iraqi's control all of it, they retain all profits from the sale of their oil.

How stupid of us to invade for oil and then give it back to the Iraqis...

---

Yes it was. The best laid plans of mice and men...

I could throw the question back to you. Can you prove that American companies and American insiders are not profitting hugely from this war in many different profit centers including oil? Not surmisal, proof.

quote:

---

Originally posted by waterboy

quote:

---

Originally posted by iplaw

My questions were easy to answer.  The facts on Iraqi oil production, sale and revenue distribution are available for anyone to review.

The Iraqi's control all of it, they retain all profits from the sale of their oil.

How stupid of us to invade for oil and then give it back to the Iraqis...

---

Yes it was. The best laid plans of mice and men...

I could throw the question back to you. Can you prove that American companies and American insiders are not profitting hugely from this war in many different profit centers including oil? Not surmisal, proof.

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The burden of proof is on the accuser my friend.  If you have proof of wrongdoing I will stand right along with you and condemn it.

quote:

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Originally posted by iplaw

quote:

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Originally posted by waterboy

quote:

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Originally posted by iplaw

My questions were easy to answer.  The facts on Iraqi oil production, sale and revenue distribution are available for anyone to review.

The Iraqi's control all of it, they retain all profits from the sale of their oil.

How stupid of us to invade for oil and then give it back to the Iraqis...

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Yes it was. The best laid plans of mice and men...

I could throw the question back to you. Can you prove that American companies and American insiders are not profitting hugely from this war in many different profit centers including oil? Not surmisal, proof.

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The burden of proof is on the accuser my friend.  If you have proof of wrongdoing I will stand right along with you and condemn it.

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I would say that the Justice Department and the Attorney General could handle that but as of lately I'm not so sure.

IPLAW! You show up angry, no doubt on your period, and deny the Busheviks had motive to hand back royalties to the O+G companies that got taken years ago by Hussein. The big red circles were drawn all over this region by the main players illustrating Iraq's vast resources. Tulsa's best geologists knew what a handsome potential Iraq had for future income in the 1940's.

The main reason was bravado and lack of good judgement. Just shortly after 9-11 the Bushevik's saw many opportunities, heroism, and the desire to make daddy Bushes shortcomings disappear from memory. Economically, our "leaders" wanted to pump money into the MIC and reinflate a stagnant situation worsening. A dry drunk revenging his father and playing army with advisors willing to lie just to get rid of Sadam? Not the motive. Mobsters kill the other mob bosses to get their business.....

And the other motivating factor in staying in the region continues to be Israels security. The neo-cons utilize this as a reason to be in the region despite Israel's ability to defend herself from Arab hostility.

The discussion going forward needs to be: "which Arabs want us around?" Not any of them. The best thing we can do to combat Bushes War On Terrorism is to come home and strengthen our country from within.

quote:

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Originally posted by iplaw
Have you bothered to look into how much oil was pumped pre and post war?  Have you looked into how money pumped from Iraqi oil wells in appropriated? If we went in for oil why aren't we seeing any profits from it?  Seems fairly ignorant to go to war for oil and then forget to take it.

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Ha ha silly IPLAW, still at it full time, good for you man... or woman.  "Why aren't WE seeing any profits from it"  Ha ha, IPLAW thinks he is part of the club.  Just like ENRON was doing great and Semgroup.  They can do whatever the hell they want with the books until things come crashing down.  
George Carlin (http://"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ4SSvVbhLw")-
"It's a big club, and you ain't in it"

 And I didn't claim anything, I just posted a video of JOHN MCCAIN claiming we went to war for oil.  He said it, not me.

quote:

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Originally posted by altruismsuffers

quote:

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Originally posted by iplaw
Have you bothered to look into how much oil was pumped pre and post war?  Have you looked into how money pumped from Iraqi oil wells in appropriated? If we went in for oil why aren't we seeing any profits from it?  Seems fairly ignorant to go to war for oil and then forget to take it.

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Ha ha silly IPLAW, still at it full time, good for you man... or woman.  "Why aren't WE seeing any profits from it"  Ha ha, IPLAW thinks he is part of the club.  Just like ENRON was doing great and Semgroup.  They can do whatever the hell they want with the books until things come crashing down.  
George Carlin (http://"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ4SSvVbhLw")-
"It's a big club, and you ain't in it"

 And I didn't claim anything, I just posted a video of JOHN MCCAIN claiming we went to war for oil.  He said it, not me.

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Again sniffer, if you don't have any proof, which you NEVER do, keep your trap shut.

If you have any objective evidence of wrongdoing then post it.  If not, go find a 9/11 Troof blog.  You're much better at making stuff up with more gullible people like yourself.

ok ok wait, Russia seems to be on everyones lips these days including McCain, Obama and apparently Bill Moyers.  Everyone is acting like Russia is the aggressor when it seems to me that American backed Georgia started this whole craphole thing.  

quote:

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2008 August - Tensions between Georgia and Russia escalate into a full-blown military conflict after Georgian troops mount an attack on separatist forces in South Ossetia.
-http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/country_profiles/1102575.stm

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quote:

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Q. What are Georgia and Russia fighting over?

A: Georgia launched a military strike on the province of South Ossetia,
-http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-08-08-question-answer_N.htm

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quote:

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The warfare began when Georgia launched a barrage targeting South Ossetia,
-http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,408528,00.html

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I admit I have not been following this closely but the MSM is name dropping Russia as the aggressor and we all know they are the mouthpiece for the NWO.  There are more nefarious things in the works and the whole story is yet to reveal itself.  


[/quote]

Russia DID NOT attack first - why is this bad information still floating around? Georgia attacked first - lets get the bright light of truth on some of this propoganda!!!!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/08/bush-cancels-russian-nucl_n_124845.html

Bush is an idiot an so is his underling, McShame.

fyi...
http://www.reuters.com/article/wtMostRead/idUSLD12378020080914


Saakashvili "planned S. Ossetia invasion": ex-minister