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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/08/AR2008090803088.html?hpid%3Dtopnews&sub=AR

Palin Billed State for Nights Spent at Home
Taxpayers Also Funded Family's Travel

ANCHORAGE, Sept. 8 -- Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin has billed taxpayers for 312 nights spent in her own home during her first 19 months in office, charging a "per diem" allowance intended to cover meals and incidental expenses while traveling on state business.

Palin Billed State for Nights Spent at Home
The governor also has charged the state for travel expenses to take her children on official out-of-town missions. And her husband, Todd, has billed the state for expenses and a daily allowance for trips he makes on official business for his wife.

Palin, who earns $125,000 a year, claimed and received $16,951 as her allowance, which officials say was permitted because her official "duty station" is Juneau, according to an analysis of her travel documents by The Washington Post. The governor's daughters and husband charged the state $43,490 to travel, and many of the trips were between their house in Wasilla and Juneau, the capital city 600 miles away, the documents show.

Gubernatorial spokeswoman Sharon Leighow said Monday that Palin's expenses are not unusual and that, under state policy, the first family could have claimed per diem expenses for each child taken on official business but has not done so. Before she became the Republican Party's vice presidential nominee, Palin was little known outside Alaska. Now, with the campaign emphasizing her executive experience, her record as mayor of Wasilla, as a state oil-and-gas commissioner and as governor is receiving intense scrutiny.

During her speech at the Republican National Convention last week, Palin cast herself as a crusader for fiscal rectitude as Alaska's governor. She noted that she sold a state-owned plane used by the former governor. "While I was at it, I got rid of a few things in the governor's office that I didn't believe our citizens should have to pay for," she said to loud applause. Speaking from Palin's Anchorage office, Leighow said Palin dealt with the plane and also trimmed other expenses, including forgoing a chef in the governor's mansion because she preferred to cook for her family. The first family's travel is an expected part of the job, she said. "As a matter of protocol, the governor and the first family are expected to attend community events across the state," she said. "It's absolutely reasonable that the first family participates in community events."

The state finance director, Kim Garnero, said Alaska law exempts the governor's office from elaborate travel regulations. Said Leighow: "The governor is entitled to a per diem, and she claims it."

The popular governor collected the per diem allowance from April 22, four days after the birth of her fifth child, until June 3, when she flew to Juneau for two days. Palin moved her family to the capital during the legislative session last year, but prefers to stay in Wasilla and drive 45 miles to Anchorage to a state office building where she conducts most of her business, aides have said. Palin rarely sought reimbursement for meals while staying in Anchorage or Wasilla, the reports show.

She wrote some form of "Lodging -- own residence" or "Lodging -- Wasilla residence" more than 30 times at the same time she took a per diem, according to the reports. In two dozen undated amendments to the reports, the governor deleted the reference to staying in her home but still charged the per diem.

Palin charged the state a per diem for working on Nov. 22, 2007 -- Thanksgiving Day. The reason given, according to the expense report, was the Great Alaska Shootout, an annual NCAA college basketball tournament held in Anchorage.

In separate filings, the state was billed about $25,000 for Palin's daughters' expenses and $19,000 for her husband's. Flights topped the list for the most expensive items, and the daughter whose bill was the highest was Piper, 7, whose flights cost nearly $11,000, while Willow, 14, claimed about $6,000 and Bristol, 17, accounted for about $3,400.

One event was in New York City in October 2007, when Bristol accompanied the governor to Newsweek's third annual Women and Leadership Conference, toured the New York Stock Exchange and met local officials and business executives. The state paid for three nights in a $707-a-day hotel room. Garnero said the governor's office has the authority to approve hotel stays above $300. Asked Monday about the official policy on charging for children's travel expenses, Garnero said: "We cover the expenses of anyone who's conducting state business. I can't imagine kids could be doing that."

But Leighow said many of the hundreds of invitations Palin receives include requests for her to bring her family, placing the definition of "state business" with the party extending the invitation. One such invitation came in October 2007, when Willow flew to Juneau to join the Palin family on a tour of the Hub Juneau Christian Teen Center, where Palin and her family worship when they are in Juneau. The state gave the center $25,000, according to a May 2008 memo.

Leighow noted that under state policy, all of the governor's children are entitled to per diem expenses, even her infant son. "The first family declined the per diem [for] the children," Leighow said. "The amount that they had declined was $4,461, as of August 5."

The family also charged for flights around the state, including trips to Alaska events such as the start of the Iditarod dog-sled race and the Iron Dog snowmobile race, a contest that Todd Palin won. Meanwhile, Todd Palin spent $725 to fly to Edmonton, Alberta, for "information gathering and planning meeting with Northern Alberta Institute of Technology," according to an expense report. During the three-day trip, he charged the state $291 for his per diem. A notation said "costs paid by Dept. of Labor." He also billed the state $1,371 for a flight to Washington to attend a National Governors Association meeting with his wife.

Gov. Palin has spent far less on her personal travel than her predecessor: $93,000 on airfare in 2007, compared with $463,000 spent the year before by her predecessor, Frank Murkowski. He traveled often in an executive jet that Palin called an extravagance during her campaign. She sold it after she was sworn into office.

"She flies coach and encourages her cabinet to fly coach as well," said Garnero, whose job is equivalent to state controller. "Some do, some don't."

Leighow said that the governor's staff has tallied the travel expenses charged by Murkowski's wife: $35,675 in 2006, $43,659 in 2005, $13,607 in 2004 and $29,608 in 2003. Associates of Murkowski said the former governor was moose hunting and could not be reached to comment.

In the past, per diem claims by Alaska state officials have carried political risks. In 1988, the head of the state Commerce Department was pilloried for collecting a per diem charge of $50 while staying in his Anchorage home, according to local news accounts. The commissioner, the late Tony Smith, resigned amid a series of controversies.

"It was quite the little scandal," said Tony Knowles, the Democratic governor from 1994 to 2000. "I gave a direction to all my commissioners if they were ever in their house, whether it was Juneau or elsewhere, they were not to get a per diem because, clearly, it is and it looks like a scam -- you pay yourself to live at home," he said.

Knowles, whose children were school-age at the start of his first term, said that his wife sometimes accompanied him to conferences overseas but that he could "count on one hand" the number of times his children accompanied him. "And the policy was not to reimburse for family travel on commercial airlines, because there is no direct public benefit to schlepping kids around the state," he said. The rules were articulated by Mike Nizich, then director of administrative services in the governor's office, said Knowles and an aide to another former governor, Walter Hickel.

Nizich is now Palin's chief of staff. He did not return a phone call seeking comment. The rules governing family travel on state-owned aircraft appear less clear. Knowles said he operated under the understanding that immediate family could accompany the governor without charge. But during the Murkowski years, that practice was questioned, and the state attorney general's office produced an opinion saying laws then in effect required reimbursement for spousal travel.


That sure seems shady to me. Charging the state for travel per diem while staying at home seems unethical to me.

Flying your kids around on state expense seems a bit extravagent as well. I guess the taxpayers are happy she only has five kids.

The process is apparently not illegal, but spending $11,000 of taxpayer money to fly your seven-year-old daughter around probably should be.

quote:

---

Originally posted by RecycleMichael

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/08/AR2008090803088.html?hpid%3Dtopnews#8834;=AR

Palin Billed State for Nights Spent at Home
Taxpayers Also Funded Family's Travel

ANCHORAGE, Sept. 8 -- Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin has billed taxpayers for 312 nights spent in her own home during her first 19 months in office, charging a "per diem" allowance intended to cover meals and incidental expenses while traveling on state business.

Palin Billed State for Nights Spent at Home
The governor also has charged the state for travel expenses to take her children on official out-of-town missions. And her husband, Todd, has billed the state for expenses and a daily allowance for trips he makes on official business for his wife.

Palin, who earns $125,000 a year, claimed and received $16,951 as her allowance, which officials say was permitted because her official "duty station" is Juneau, according to an analysis of her travel documents by The Washington Post. The governor's daughters and husband charged the state $43,490 to travel, and many of the trips were between their house in Wasilla and Juneau, the capital city 600 miles away, the documents show.

Gubernatorial spokeswoman Sharon Leighow said Monday that Palin's expenses are not unusual and that, under state policy, the first family could have claimed per diem expenses for each child taken on official business but has not done so. Before she became the Republican Party's vice presidential nominee, Palin was little known outside Alaska. Now, with the campaign emphasizing her executive experience, her record as mayor of Wasilla, as a state oil-and-gas commissioner and as governor is receiving intense scrutiny.

During her speech at the Republican National Convention last week, Palin cast herself as a crusader for fiscal rectitude as Alaska's governor. She noted that she sold a state-owned plane used by the former governor. "While I was at it, I got rid of a few things in the governor's office that I didn't believe our citizens should have to pay for," she said to loud applause. Speaking from Palin's Anchorage office, Leighow said Palin dealt with the plane and also trimmed other expenses, including forgoing a chef in the governor's mansion because she preferred to cook for her family. The first family's travel is an expected part of the job, she said. "As a matter of protocol, the governor and the first family are expected to attend community events across the state," she said. "It's absolutely reasonable that the first family participates in community events."

The state finance director, Kim Garnero, said Alaska law exempts the governor's office from elaborate travel regulations. Said Leighow: "The governor is entitled to a per diem, and she claims it."

The popular governor collected the per diem allowance from April 22, four days after the birth of her fifth child, until June 3, when she flew to Juneau for two days. Palin moved her family to the capital during the legislative session last year, but prefers to stay in Wasilla and drive 45 miles to Anchorage to a state office building where she conducts most of her business, aides have said. Palin rarely sought reimbursement for meals while staying in Anchorage or Wasilla, the reports show.

She wrote some form of "Lodging -- own residence" or "Lodging -- Wasilla residence" more than 30 times at the same time she took a per diem, according to the reports. In two dozen undated amendments to the reports, the governor deleted the reference to staying in her home but still charged the per diem.

Palin charged the state a per diem for working on Nov. 22, 2007 -- Thanksgiving Day. The reason given, according to the expense report, was the Great Alaska Shootout, an annual NCAA college basketball tournament held in Anchorage.

In separate filings, the state was billed about $25,000 for Palin's daughters' expenses and $19,000 for her husband's. Flights topped the list for the most expensive items, and the daughter whose bill was the highest was Piper, 7, whose flights cost nearly $11,000, while Willow, 14, claimed about $6,000 and Bristol, 17, accounted for about $3,400.

One event was in New York City in October 2007, when Bristol accompanied the governor to Newsweek's third annual Women and Leadership Conference, toured the New York Stock Exchange and met local officials and business executives. The state paid for three nights in a $707-a-day hotel room. Garnero said the governor's office has the authority to approve hotel stays above $300. Asked Monday about the official policy on charging for children's travel expenses, Garnero said: "We cover the expenses of anyone who's conducting state business. I can't imagine kids could be doing that."

But Leighow said many of the hundreds of invitations Palin receives include requests for her to bring her family, placing the definition of "state business" with the party extending the invitation. One such invitation came in October 2007, when Willow flew to Juneau to join the Palin family on a tour of the Hub Juneau Christian Teen Center, where Palin and her family worship when they are in Juneau. The state gave the center $25,000, according to a May 2008 memo.

Leighow noted that under state policy, all of the governor's children are entitled to per diem expenses, even her infant son. "The first family declined the per diem [for] the children," Leighow said. "The amount that they had declined was $4,461, as of August 5."

The family also charged for flights around the state, including trips to Alaska events such as the start of the Iditarod dog-sled race and the Iron Dog snowmobile race, a contest that Todd Palin won. Meanwhile, Todd Palin spent $725 to fly to Edmonton, Alberta, for "information gathering and planning meeting with Northern Alberta Institute of Technology," according to an expense report. During the three-day trip, he charged the state $291 for his per diem. A notation said "costs paid by Dept. of Labor." He also billed the state $1,371 for a flight to Washington to attend a National Governors Association meeting with his wife.

Gov. Palin has spent far less on her personal travel than her predecessor: $93,000 on airfare in 2007, compared with $463,000 spent the year before by her predecessor, Frank Murkowski. He traveled often in an executive jet that Palin called an extravagance during her campaign. She sold it after she was sworn into office.

"She flies coach and encourages her cabinet to fly coach as well," said Garnero, whose job is equivalent to state controller. "Some do, some don't."

Leighow said that the governor's staff has tallied the travel expenses charged by Murkowski's wife: $35,675 in 2006, $43,659 in 2005, $13,607 in 2004 and $29,608 in 2003. Associates of Murkowski said the former governor was moose hunting and could not be reached to comment.

In the past, per diem claims by Alaska state officials have carried political risks. In 1988, the head of the state Commerce Department was pilloried for collecting a per diem charge of $50 while staying in his Anchorage home, according to local news accounts. The commissioner, the late Tony Smith, resigned amid a series of controversies.

"It was quite the little scandal," said Tony Knowles, the Democratic governor from 1994 to 2000. "I gave a direction to all my commissioners if they were ever in their house, whether it was Juneau or elsewhere, they were not to get a per diem because, clearly, it is and it looks like a scam -- you pay yourself to live at home," he said.

Knowles, whose children were school-age at the start of his first term, said that his wife sometimes accompanied him to conferences overseas but that he could "count on one hand" the number of times his children accompanied him. "And the policy was not to reimburse for family travel on commercial airlines, because there is no direct public benefit to schlepping kids around the state," he said. The rules were articulated by Mike Nizich, then director of administrative services in the governor's office, said Knowles and an aide to another former governor, Walter Hickel.

Nizich is now Palin's chief of staff. He did not return a phone call seeking comment. The rules governing family travel on state-owned aircraft appear less clear. Knowles said he operated under the understanding that immediate family could accompany the governor without charge. But during the Murkowski years, that practice was questioned, and the state attorney general's office produced an opinion saying laws then in effect required reimbursement for spousal travel.


That sure seems shady to me. Charging the state for travel per diem while staying at home seems unethical to me.

Flying your kids around on state expense seems a bit extravagent as well. I guess the taxpayers are happy she only has five kids.

The process is apparently not illegal, but spending $11,000 of taxpayer money to fly your seven-year-old daughter around probably should be.

---

Nice try in pushing another of your persistent Palin smears, but the facts state she scrupulously followed the Alaska state government travel rules.  

As governor, her home is Juneau.

She was travelling on official business when she left Juneau. Hence, she could claim Per Diem when she was in travel status, even to Wasilla.

Sounds like the State actually got a break.

She could have also charged Equivalent Lodging Expense for staying at her Wasilla residence.  Many government and business travel regulations allow such charges.

But she didn't, did she?

Saving the Taxpayers money, again.

Go, Girl!

Sarah Palin did not break the law.

She did however use every way possible to charge the taxpayers to fly her family all over the state.

Yes, there is an official governor's mansion in Juneau. The fact that she charged the taxpayers for not staying there is hypocritical. She stayed away from the mansion 312 nights out of 19 months.  

So the taxpayers both paid provided with with a residence and paid her to not stay there. When she did stay there, they paid to fly her family in.

If a democrat had spent $44,000 to fly their family around, you would be screaming bloody murder.

She is being exposed for being a hypocrite. She isn't going to cut waste in government spending, she is going to charge the taxpayers to fly and feed her family.

That is exactly what we don't need in Washington.

Boo hoo.  I bet she's farted in an elevator before too...

I'd love to see you critique and research your party's nominees so thoroughly.

quote:

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Originally posted by RecycleMichael

If a democrat had spent $44,000 to fly their family around, you would be screaming bloody murder.

---

Actually no.  Republicans don't seem near as infatuated with pettiness as Democrats are.

I certainly sympathize though.  If I were you and my candidate had picked such a poor running mate, I'd be sweeping dust out from under the rug too.  I'd feel chump-changed.

I know there have to be a lot of Obama supporters who are upset he got duped into thinking he needed Biden's "foreign policy experience" to get him elected.  He effed up big time by not selecting Hillary.  She knows better than anyone else how the White House works and was probably the most well-informed First Lady we've ever had.

If Obama wanted a veteran on his team, he should have picked someone who knows the executive branch, not someone who only seems to know a bunch of lobbyists.

I don't remember him crying when Pelosi wanted to "supersize" her private jet at a huge cost to the taxpayer.

quote:

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Originally posted by Conan71

quote:

---

Originally posted by RecycleMichael

If a democrat had spent $44,000 to fly their family around, you would be screaming bloody murder.

---

Actually no.  Republicans don't seem near as infatuated with pettiness as Democrats are.

I certainly sympathize though.  If I were you and my candidate had picked such a poor running mate, I'd be sweeping dust out from under the rug too.  I'd feel chump-changed.

I know there have to be a lot of Obama supporters who are upset he got duped into thinking he needed Biden's "foreign policy experience" to get him elected.  He effed up big time by not selecting Hillary.  She knows better than anyone else how the White House works and was probably the most well-informed First Lady we've ever had.

If Obama wanted a veteran on his team, he should have picked someone who knows the executive branch, not someone who only seems to know a bunch of lobbyists.

---

Get serious. The smearguns were loaded, dialed in and locked down for Hillary long ago. The argument that Bill came with the package was like getting free kool-aid with a pack of Camels.

How soon you forget the vulgarity that filled these threads when she was running for herself.

If we get McCain/Palin I would expect all hell to break loose in this country. Especially when the dust settles and Maverick's return to status quo becomes obvious. Everyone will hate everyone even worse and the brain drain will follow the capital drain to other countries. Anyone who really wants change cannot possibly believe that this old man and his collection of women from the set of 1960's "Mad Men" is a refreshing change.

Seriously, this has happened before in the twenties and again in the fifties. No system lasts forever and failing to change and fix this one assures its demise sooner rather than later whether its Ron Paul or Obama.

CHANGE IS NOT ELECTING SOMEONE WHO AGREES WITH HIS PREDECESSOR! CHANGE IS SOMEONE, ANYONE, NEW AND DIFFERENT WHO DISAGREES WITH THE PREVIOUS OFFICE HOLDER!. Why is that so hard to understand?

Change has little to do with selecting the 6th most senior U.S. Senator to be a running mate.  

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/656/

"In all my time in the United States Senate, and I want you to know there's only four senators senior to me, but Barack, there's still 44 older than me,” Biden said. “I want you to know that part. But all kidding aside, of all my years in the Senate, I have never in my life seen Washington so broken.”

(insignificant factoid: the story corrects this, he's actually 6th on seniority due to some sort of "tie-breaker" with Pete Dominici, who was sworn in the same day as Biden)

-----------------------------------------------

Did you listen to Sen. McCain's speech at the RNC?  Or were you one of those: "I don't need to hear his speech, I already know what he's going to say."

(I even harvested this from HuffPo)

-----------------------------------------------

"After we've won, we're going to reach out our hand to any willing patriot, make this government start working for you again," he said, and he pledged to invite Democrats and independents to serve in his administration.

He mentioned Bush only in passing, as the leader who led the country through the days after the terror attacks on Sept. 11, 2001.

And there was plenty for conservative Republicans to cheer _ from his pledge to free the country from the grip of its dependence on foreign oil, to a vow to have schools answer to parents and students rather than "unions and entrenched bureaucrats."

A man who has clashed repeatedly with Republicans in Congress, he said proudly, "I've been called a maverick. Sometimes it's meant as a compliment and sometimes it's not. What it really means is I understand who I work for.

"I don't work for a party. I don't work for a special interest. I don't work for myself. I work for you."

Thousands of red, white and blue balloons nestled in netting above the convention floor, to be released on cue for the traditional celebratory convention finale.

Given McCain's political mission, it was left to other Republicans to deliver much of the criticism aimed at Obama.

In the race for the White House, "It's not about building a record, it's about having one," said former Pennsylvania Gov. Tom Ridge. "It's not about talking pretty, it's about talking straight."

McCain invoked the five years he spent in a North Vietnamese prison. "I fell in love with my country when I was a prisoner in someone else's," he said. "I was never the same again. I wasn't my own man anymore. I was my country's."

------------------------------------------------

You know what I've come to like most about Sen. McCain?

His life has evolved to this.  He didn't start out running for President in high school and carefully craft his life to become President.

Sen. Obama feels manufactured to me.  I still cannot get over the glaring mistake in choosing an old-line corrupt politician for a running mate when his campaign buzzword has been "change".

Maybe being away from Juneau half the times is the real reason she fired the Gourmet chef (http://"http://dwb.adn.com/news/politics/story/9090479p-9006523c.html").

Ooops.  Guess she didn't really fire her, but merely transferred her.

Well, at least she sold that plane on ebay & made a profit to cover those expenses.  Oh, wait... not true, either. (http://"http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/the-ebay-myth.html")

Not a fiscal conservative, not against the bridge to nowhere, really likes earmarks....is anything that the republicans have said about this woman actually true?  Other than she really likes mooseburgers, of course.

quote:

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Originally posted by pmcalk

Maybe being away from Juneau half the times is the real reason she fired the Gourmet chef (http://"http://dwb.adn.com/news/politics/story/9090479p-9006523c.html").

Ooops.  Guess she didn't really fire her, but merely transferred her.

Well, at least she sold that plane on ebay & made a profit to cover those expenses.  Oh, wait... not true, either. (http://"http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/the-ebay-myth.html")

Not a fiscal conservative, not against the bridge to nowhere, really likes earmarks....is anything that the republicans have said about this woman actually true?  Other than she really likes mooseburgers, of course.

---

She never claimed that she sold the plane on ebay.  She said she LISTED it on ebay.  She eventually had it sold by other means because it didn't sell on ebay.

It's called "listening skills" and "reading skills" folks; valuable skills that should be tried once and a while.

Why do you support liars?

Palin is a liar.

She's Dumbya in a dress......

Who keeps farting in here?  It's burning my eyes...

If your head wasn't up your donkey you'd figure that out......

quote:

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Originally posted by FOTD

Why do you support liars?

Palin is a liar.

She's Dumbya in a dress......

---

What's the deal?

You, Ruf, and Waterboy all keep channeling MichaelC/Neptune.

LIAR!!!

quote:

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Originally posted by FOTD

If your head wasn't up your donkey you'd figure that out......

---

I know that smell now.  It's the waft of the FauxTurd...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Conan71

Change has little to do with selecting the 6th most senior U.S. Senator to be a running mate.  

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/656/

"In all my time in the United States Senate, and I want you to know there's only four senators senior to me, but Barack, there's still 44 older than me,” Biden said. “I want you to know that part. But all kidding aside, of all my years in the Senate, I have never in my life seen Washington so broken.”

(insignificant factoid: the story corrects this, he's actually 6th on seniority due to some sort of "tie-breaker" with Pete Dominici, who was sworn in the same day as Biden)

-----------------------------------------------

Did you listen to Sen. McCain's speech at the RNC?  Or were you one of those: "I don't need to hear his speech, I already know what he's going to say."

(I even harvested this from HuffPo)

-----------------------------------------------

"After we've won, we're going to reach out our hand to any willing patriot, make this government start working for you again," he said, and he pledged to invite Democrats and independents to serve in his administration.

He mentioned Bush only in passing, as the leader who led the country through the days after the terror attacks on Sept. 11, 2001.

And there was plenty for conservative Republicans to cheer _ from his pledge to free the country from the grip of its dependence on foreign oil, to a vow to have schools answer to parents and students rather than "unions and entrenched bureaucrats."

A man who has clashed repeatedly with Republicans in Congress, he said proudly, "I've been called a maverick. Sometimes it's meant as a compliment and sometimes it's not. What it really means is I understand who I work for.

"I don't work for a party. I don't work for a special interest. I don't work for myself. I work for you."

Thousands of red, white and blue balloons nestled in netting above the convention floor, to be released on cue for the traditional celebratory convention finale.

Given McCain's political mission, it was left to other Republicans to deliver much of the criticism aimed at Obama.

In the race for the White House, "It's not about building a record, it's about having one," said former Pennsylvania Gov. Tom Ridge. "It's not about talking pretty, it's about talking straight."

McCain invoked the five years he spent in a North Vietnamese prison. "I fell in love with my country when I was a prisoner in someone else's," he said. "I was never the same again. I wasn't my own man anymore. I was my country's."

------------------------------------------------

You know what I've come to like most about Sen. McCain?

His life has evolved to this.  He didn't start out running for President in high school and carefully craft his life to become President.

Sen. Obama feels manufactured to me.  I still cannot get over the glaring mistake in choosing an old-line corrupt politician for a running mate when his campaign buzzword has been "change".

---

You are a fine debater. I am not. But I at least know to be suspicious of the promises of a man who's been in political office about as long as Biden. His speech is no more than the balloons falling around him. He has changed his views so often I cannot understand how you would value them much.

One thing McCain has never been is one who could accomplish much change. He sometimes voted against his own party but was unable to change them. Now he thinks he can shake up the Republican party? And the Democratic party?

FB is the quintessential republican that parades as an independent because the party changed and left him behind. He's now in purgatory. Actually an anti-Demcrat. His mantra is win at all costs, give no quarter, never besmirch a fellow republican. You think the FB's in the party or on its fringes will embrace the guy that they didn't really want, who embarrased them in congress and now wants to change their source of power?

I don't.

quote:

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He has changed his views so often I cannot understand how you would value them much.

---

Are you completely blind to your own candidate?  Obama has flip flopped on virtually every issue under the sun.  Why is flip flopping only a concern with McCain?

quote:

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Originally posted by iplaw

quote:

---

Originally posted by pmcalk

Maybe being away from Juneau half the times is the real reason she fired the Gourmet chef (http://"http://dwb.adn.com/news/politics/story/9090479p-9006523c.html").

Ooops.  Guess she didn't really fire her, but merely transferred her.

Well, at least she sold that plane on ebay & made a profit to cover those expenses.  Oh, wait... not true, either. (http://"http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/the-ebay-myth.html")

Not a fiscal conservative, not against the bridge to nowhere, really likes earmarks....is anything that the republicans have said about this woman actually true?  Other than she really likes mooseburgers, of course.

---

She never claimed that she sold the plane on ebay.  She said she LISTED it on ebay.  She eventually had it sold by other means because it didn't sell on ebay.

It's called "listening skills" and "reading skills" folks; valuable skills that should be tried once and a while.

---

Read my post again.  Did I say she claimed to have sold it on ebay????? McCain (http://"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cm5jQEh7exg") said she sold it on ebay, for a profit.  Not true.  Maybe when he vets her, he'll figure it out.

It's called "reading skills", Iplaw.  You should try it sometime.

quote:

---

Originally posted by pmcalk

quote:

---

Originally posted by iplaw

quote:

---

Originally posted by pmcalk

Maybe being away from Juneau half the times is the real reason she fired the Gourmet chef (http://"http://dwb.adn.com/news/politics/story/9090479p-9006523c.html").

Ooops.  Guess she didn't really fire her, but merely transferred her.

Well, at least she sold that plane on ebay & made a profit to cover those expenses.  Oh, wait... not true, either. (http://"http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/the-ebay-myth.html")

Not a fiscal conservative, not against the bridge to nowhere, really likes earmarks....is anything that the republicans have said about this woman actually true?  Other than she really likes mooseburgers, of course.

---

She never claimed that she sold the plane on ebay.  She said she LISTED it on ebay.  She eventually had it sold by other means because it didn't sell on ebay.

It's called "listening skills" and "reading skills" folks; valuable skills that should be tried once and a while.

---

Read my post again.  Did I say she claimed to have sold it on ebay????? McCain (http://"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cm5jQEh7exg") said she sold it on ebay, for a profit.  Not true.  Maybe when he vets her, he'll figure it out.

It's called "reading skills", Iplaw.  You should try it sometime.

---

I re-read your post. I don't see that you said anything about McCain in your post.  I didn't read the links, nor will I.  

BTW, pissing and moaning about her not being "vetted" isn't getting your party anywhere.  In fact, from most of the polls, half-assed attacks like those are having a net negative effect for Obama and widening the McCain lead.  

Keep up the good work!

This is just so entertaining.  Millions of little liberal rats scurrying around trying to find any little scrap to chew on and dance around.

Meanwhile, everything they should be focusing on drifts past them quietly.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gaspar

This is just so entertaining.  Millions of little liberal rats scurrying around trying to find any little scrap to chew on and dance around.

Meanwhile, everything they should be focusing on drifts past them quietly.

---

Mainly because Gov. Palin would have been an ideal Democratic candidate, (with the exception of not being for uterus vacuuming) and everyone knows it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Conan71

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gaspar

This is just so entertaining.  Millions of little liberal rats scurrying around trying to find any little scrap to chew on and dance around.

Meanwhile, everything they should be focusing on drifts past them quietly.

---

Mainly because Gov. Palin would have been an ideal Democratic candidate, (with the exception of not being for uterus vacuuming) and everyone knows it.

---

I didn't know it. Didn't conceive of it. Wouldn't support it. But the Democratic party has changed just like the Republican party. AA and Kathy Taylor would never have passed as Dems in my day and Ron Paul isn't very Republican. So who knows. You could be right.

Gaspar rats survive everything. Second only to cockroaches thru the ages. Call us what you will you have no conscience without us.

quote:

---

Originally posted by iplaw
I re-read your post. I don't see that you said anything about McCain in your post.

---

Geez, for someone who claims to be a lawyer, you certainly aren't very good at reading the fine print.  I didn't attribute the quote to anyone.  You assumed I meant Palin.

quote:

---

I didn't read the links, nor will I.

---

Good for you.  Don't let facts get in the way of your spin.  Typical republican.

quote:

---

BTW, pissing and moaning about her not being "vetted" isn't getting your party anywhere.  In fact, from most of the polls, half-assed attacks like those are having a net negative effect for Obama and widening the McCain lead.  

Keep up the good work!

---

I am not pissing & moaning about her not being vetted.  Not vetting her is like an early Christmas present for Democrats.  Every day we have a new scandal turn up.  Can't wait to see what tomorrow brings.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Conan71

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gaspar

This is just so entertaining.  Millions of little liberal rats scurrying around trying to find any little scrap to chew on and dance around.

Meanwhile, everything they should be focusing on drifts past them quietly.

---

Mainly because Gov. Palin would have been an ideal Democratic candidate, (with the exception of not being for uterus vacuuming) and everyone knows it.

---

Another lie.

I opened an intrade account.

I just now got "Palin to withdraw" at 20 to 1 odds.

My twenty five dollars will turn into $500 if "Sarah Palin to be withdrawn as Republican VP nominee/candidate before 2008 presidential election."

Anybody here want to take my action as well?

quote:

---

Originally posted by RecycleMichael

I opened an intrade account.

I just now got "Palin to withdraw" at 20 to 1 odds.

My twenty five dollars will turn into $500 if "Sarah Palin to be withdrawn as Republican VP nominee/candidate before 2008 presidential election."

Anybody here want to take my action as well?

---

Yes! Is there a seperate bet for her replacement on the ticket? It would be hell sent if it were Condi.

quote:

---

I am not pissing & moaning about her not being vetted. Not vetting her is like an early Christmas present for Democrats. Every day we have a new scandal turn up. Can't wait to see what tomorrow brings.

---

And with every penny-ante issue your party brings up McCain widens his lead.  As I said before, keep up the good work!  Nothing better than a democrat showing us all how to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory...

quote:

---

Originally posted by RecycleMichael

I opened an intrade account.

I just now got "Palin to withdraw" at 20 to 1 odds.

My twenty five dollars will turn into $500 if "Sarah Palin to be withdrawn as Republican VP nominee/candidate before 2008 presidential election."

Anybody here want to take my action as well?

---

The thought of your "action" just made me lose my appetite...[;)]

Why would you make such a stupid bet?  Do you think McCain opened up this lead on Obama by himself?

You guys really are delusional.

quote:

---

Originally posted by iplaw

quote:

---

I am not pissing & moaning about her not being vetted. Not vetting her is like an early Christmas present for Democrats. Every day we have a new scandal turn up. Can't wait to see what tomorrow brings.

---

And with every penny-ante issue your party brings up McCain widens his lead.  As I said before, keep up the good work!  Nothing better than a democrat showing us all how to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory...

---

Yeah, those polls really show that lead widening.

Talk about delusional...sheesh.

Who's delusional? WSJ poll shows them within the margin of error (McCain +1). CNN poll shows dead even. Only the NBC, which you guys all tell us is biased and unreliable, has a poll showing McCain ahead.

So reality is that Americans are still split down the middle and deadlocked as usual. Few expected the race to be definitive at this point. The good news for Dems is that those votes translate to a lead in electoral college votes.

quote:

---

Originally posted by waterboy

Who's delusional? WSJ poll shows them within the margin of error (McCain +1). CNN poll shows dead even. Only the NBC, which you guys all tell us is biased and unreliable, has a poll showing McCain ahead.

So reality is that Americans are still split down the middle and deadlocked as usual. Few expected the race to be definitive at this point. The good news for Dems is that those votes translate to a lead in electoral college votes.

---

It's called polling averages.  Check with Realclearpolitics to see the most widely used polls.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hoss

quote:

---

Originally posted by iplaw

quote:

---

I am not pissing & moaning about her not being vetted. Not vetting her is like an early Christmas present for Democrats. Every day we have a new scandal turn up. Can't wait to see what tomorrow brings.

---

And with every penny-ante issue your party brings up McCain widens his lead.  As I said before, keep up the good work!  Nothing better than a democrat showing us all how to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory...

---

Yeah, those polls really show that lead widening.

Talk about delusional...sheesh.

---

Do you even bother to look at the polls before you run your mouth?  McCain just jumped to a 20 point lead in NC last night and he's got his highest lead in Ohio.  He's increased his lead among independents, he's increased his lead among white women, and among hispanics.

It's called google.  It's a wonderful thing.

To top that all off, Obama is having trouble (http://"http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/was-it-smart-fo.html") meeting fundraising goals.  So much for being for public financing before being against it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by iplaw

Do you even bother to look at the polls before you run your mouth?  McCain just jumped to a 20 point lead in NC last night and he's got his highest lead in Ohio.  He's increased his lead among independents, he's increased his lead among white women, and among hispanics.

It's called google.  It's a wonderful thing.

To top that all off, Obama is having trouble (http://"http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/was-it-smart-fo.html") meeting fundraising goals.  So much for being for public financing before being against it.

---

Spin, spin...that's a STATE poll.  How many electoral votes does NC have?  14?  He's gonna need more than that.

National polls show pretty much a dead heat.  Or are you ignoring those on purpose?

quote:

---

Spin, spin...that's a STATE poll.  How many electoral votes does NC have?  14?  He's gonna need more than that.

---

Just when I think your posts can't get any more ignorant...you should follow the thread and read carefully.  I never said that NC was the loadstar of the election.

In fact, as I recall you were disputing the fact that McCain is gaining in the polls, which is clearly incorrect.

quote:

---

National polls show pretty much a dead heat.  Or are you ignoring those on purpose?

---

Some do, some don't.  Gallup has him up by 10 and 5 in two different polls. Are you ignoring those on purpose?

quote:

---

Originally posted by iplaw

quote:

---

Spin, spin...that's a STATE poll.  How many electoral votes does NC have?  14?  He's gonna need more than that.

---

Just when I think your posts can't get any more ignorant...you should follow the thread and read carefully.  I never said that NC was the loadstar of the election.

In fact, as I recall you were disputing the fact that McCain is gaining in the polls, which is clearly incorrect.

quote:

---

National polls show pretty much a dead heat.  Or are you ignoring those on purpose?

---

Some do, some don't.  Gallup has him up by 10 and 5 in two different polls. Are you ignoring those on purpose?

---

Nope, but last I checked they're running for POTUSA.  Not President of North Carolina.

Nice dodge.  You really are too easy.

quote:

---

Originally posted by iplaw

Nice dodge.  You really are too easy.

---

Let's remember who brought up a state poll in a national race.  Who is dodging who?

[:D]

OK easy slimer...read this map of electoral college predictions.

http://www.electoral-vote.com/

Obama is ahead. If this map is true, Obama already has enough states to win the election.

McCain may or may not be ahead in the popular votes, but it is in states that are already red.

Sorry, Iplaw...try again.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hoss

quote:

---

Originally posted by iplaw

Nice dodge.  You really are too easy.

---

Let's remember who brought up a state poll in a national race.  Who is dodging who?

[:D]

---

I won't go back and rehash the reason I brought up the state poll, though if you re-read the thread it's perfectly clear. I fully justified my claims by providing both national, state and focus group polling.  You chose to focus on the state poll because gave you something to ***** about, ignoring everything else.

quote:

---

Originally posted by iplaw

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hoss

quote:

---

Originally posted by iplaw

Nice dodge.  You really are too easy.

---

Let's remember who brought up a state poll in a national race.  Who is dodging who?

[:D]

---

I won't go back and rehash the reason I brought up the state poll, though if you re-read the thread it's perfectly clear. I fully justified my claims by providing both national, state and focus group polling.  You chose to focus on the state poll because gave you something to ***** about, ignoring everything else.

---

Now who's too easy?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hoss

quote:

---

Originally posted by iplaw

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hoss

quote:

---

Originally posted by iplaw

Nice dodge.  You really are too easy.

---

Let's remember who brought up a state poll in a national race.  Who is dodging who?

[:D]

---

I won't go back and rehash the reason I brought up the state poll, though if you re-read the thread it's perfectly clear. I fully justified my claims by providing both national, state and focus group polling.  You chose to focus on the state poll because gave you something to ***** about, ignoring everything else.

---

Now who's too easy?

---

Your mom?  Go play in traffic if you have nothing substantive to add.

quote:

---

Originally posted by iplaw

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hoss

quote:

---

Originally posted by iplaw

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hoss

quote:

---

Originally posted by iplaw

Nice dodge.  You really are too easy.

---

Let's remember who brought up a state poll in a national race.  Who is dodging who?

[:D]

---

I won't go back and rehash the reason I brought up the state poll, though if you re-read the thread it's perfectly clear. I fully justified my claims by providing both national, state and focus group polling.  You chose to focus on the state poll because gave you something to ***** about, ignoring everything else.

---

Now who's too easy?

---

Your mom?  Go play in traffic if you have nothing substantive to add.

---

You must be brothers with the Bear...[}:)]

Hmmm. Have you ever seen them together in the same place?

quote:

---

Originally posted by iplaw

quote:

---

I am not pissing & moaning about her not being vetted. Not vetting her is like an early Christmas present for Democrats. Every day we have a new scandal turn up. Can't wait to see what tomorrow brings.

---

And with every penny-ante issue your party brings up McCain widens his lead.  As I said before, keep up the good work!  Nothing better than a democrat showing us all how to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory...

---

Little advice, IP--don't try to prove your points with daily polls.  Check realclearpolitics today--Obama's winning by one in two polls.  You think Palin might be dragging McCain down now?

And NC, different poll, same day, has McCain ahead by only 4%.

Either McCain is in a tailspin, losing 16% in less than 24 hours, or we can all agree that polls are not too reliable.

What world are you Dims living in? This B*tch slap of B.O. and the Dim Party really sent you tweakers in to hyper retard mode. This has to be the most rose colored I've ever seen your glasses. That's saying a lot. You live in some delusional la, la land where the every day, LEGAL practices, someone's else's slip ups or misperceptions and every other smear your crazed and desperate ARMY of dirt diggers in Alaska can find is actually true and somehow a scandal.

Do you realize what you freaks look like right now? Oprah windbag won't even interview Sarah, your great leader Obama, calling her a pig in lipstick. I saw the piece. It was aimed at Sarah, with the nice fall back of saying it was aimed at McCain. Once again I see the foolish leftist arrogance coming out, thinking they can pull it off. What clowns. [:o)]

You are PUSHING the remaining fence setters right off the fence and squarely on to our side with your sheer, immature lunacy or shall I say FULL BLOWN LIBERALISM. Keep up the good work you looney lefties. Knowing John McCain, he can use all the help he can get.

You know, a lot of times, I will see posts that are set up in a similar fashion to this, saying how stupid the other side is and to keep it up. Usually, it's easy to see right thru them and know that they are just trying to make you look bad and hope they shame you in to shutting up, for fear that reality might get some traction. This ain't one of those. If I thought you pea brains might actual see the light, I wouldn't post this, for fear that you WOULD change your mentally retarded and OH SO SUCCESSFUL strategy. You go place those bets and please, keep up the good work. (Patronizing condescension intended) [}:)]

SARAH PALIN 2012!!!!

quote:

---

Originally posted by pmcalk

quote:

---

Originally posted by iplaw

quote:

---

I am not pissing & moaning about her not being vetted. Not vetting her is like an early Christmas present for Democrats. Every day we have a new scandal turn up. Can't wait to see what tomorrow brings.

---

And with every penny-ante issue your party brings up McCain widens his lead.  As I said before, keep up the good work!  Nothing better than a democrat showing us all how to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory...

---

Little advice, IP--don't try to prove your points with daily polls.  Check realclearpolitics today--Obama's winning by one in two polls.  You think Palin might be dragging McCain down now?

And NC, different poll, same day, has McCain ahead by only 4%.

Either McCain is in a tailspin, losing 16% in less than 24 hours, or we can all agree that polls are not too reliable.

---

Let them think Obama has a lead or that it's statistaclly tied. It's just those rose colored glasses again. There's a big difference between simple national polls and oh, here it comes.., this is gonna whack your sensitive little eys..., polls of LIKELY voters. Keep on counting the non-factors. It'll help you poor little fellas keep pretending that B.O. didn't just get his @ss kicked. Is the race over? not by a long shot. I just want to get B.O. away from his teleprompter long eneough for him to open that empty suited mouth of his enough times to eventually be seen for the extreme left wing parrot he really is. I can't wait to see Sarah debate Biden as well. She'll stomp him a new @ss hole.

quote:

---

Originally posted by pmcalk

quote:

---

Originally posted by iplaw

quote:

---

I am not pissing & moaning about her not being vetted. Not vetting her is like an early Christmas present for Democrats. Every day we have a new scandal turn up. Can't wait to see what tomorrow brings.

---

And with every penny-ante issue your party brings up McCain widens his lead.  As I said before, keep up the good work!  Nothing better than a democrat showing us all how to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory...

---

Little advice, IP--don't try to prove your points with daily polls.  Check realclearpolitics today--Obama's winning by one in two polls.  You think Palin might be dragging McCain down now?

And NC, different poll, same day, has McCain ahead by only 4%.

Either McCain is in a tailspin, losing 16% in less than 24 hours, or we can all agree that polls are not too reliable.

---

It's amazing how polls become "unreliable" when your candidate is losing in virtually all of them...

quote:

---

Originally posted by pmcalk

quote:

---

Originally posted by iplaw

quote:

---

I am not pissing & moaning about her not being vetted. Not vetting her is like an early Christmas present for Democrats. Every day we have a new scandal turn up. Can't wait to see what tomorrow brings.

---

And with every penny-ante issue your party brings up McCain widens his lead.  As I said before, keep up the good work!  Nothing better than a democrat showing us all how to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory...

---

Little advice, IP--don't try to prove your points with daily polls.  Check realclearpolitics today--Obama's winning by one in two polls.  You think Palin might be dragging McCain down now?

And NC, different poll, same day, has McCain ahead by only 4%.

Either McCain is in a tailspin, losing 16% in less than 24 hours, or we can all agree that polls are not too reliable.

---

The ONLY poll result which counts is the one released the morning of Nov. 5th.  Can I get an AMEN! here?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Conan71

quote:

---

Originally posted by pmcalk

quote:

---

Originally posted by iplaw

quote:

---

I am not pissing & moaning about her not being vetted. Not vetting her is like an early Christmas present for Democrats. Every day we have a new scandal turn up. Can't wait to see what tomorrow brings.

---

And with every penny-ante issue your party brings up McCain widens his lead.  As I said before, keep up the good work!  Nothing better than a democrat showing us all how to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory...

---

Little advice, IP--don't try to prove your points with daily polls.  Check realclearpolitics today--Obama's winning by one in two polls.  You think Palin might be dragging McCain down now?

And NC, different poll, same day, has McCain ahead by only 4%.

Either McCain is in a tailspin, losing 16% in less than 24 hours, or we can all agree that polls are not too reliable.

---

The ONLY poll result which counts is the one released the morning of Nov. 5th.  Can I get an AMEN! here?

---

No argument here, believe it or not.  [}:)]

I should be plenty drunk or hungover by then no matter which way the election goes. Amen to that.

RM:  

The Electoral Vote map you linked to uses poll data as old as September of 2007 (1 year old) to make its prediction.  Notably in "weak democratic" states Pennsylvania, Colorado, Washington, and neutral Florida.  Wisconsin is apparently from 2005.  

I would hazard to guess the relevance of that data is negligible.  The map is a good effort, but the source data needs significant work.

Real Clear Politics has a map using a conglomeration of the latest polls.  If there is a violent sudden swing in one poll, the state is shown as a toss up until confirmed by other polls.  In short, it seems to be an honest attempt to be unbiased:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/maps/obama_vs_mccain/

It has Obama in the lead, McCain closing, and MANY as toss ups.  All the usual suspects.
- - -

Palin is an interesting pick.  Thus far the criticisms I have heard are:
1) Over selling her resume (bridge, plane, etc.)
2) She has a retarded child and should stay home
3) Pregnant daughter + abstinence only = hypocrite
and 4) She's conservative (criticizing positions/actions along those lines).

Pretty much everything else is just noise.  Per diem pay, religion, etc are all irrelevant this far.  Just not much substance and to me it appears to be a shotgun approach... maybe something will stick.  The issues that are there may persuade people NOT to vote for her, but certainly someone who likes he isn't going to care that she followed state law on travel allowances etc.

The religious issues are a bit concerning to me, but in context they put me at ease.  At first report I thought she was a "god said so" teach creationism type person...  it appears SHE is, but is a step back from that (and Bush) on governing with that philosophy.

- - -

For the record, I don't think I have a horse in this race.  If I could, I'd be voting 3rd party.  As it stands, since Oklahoma will be comfortable McCain territory and my vote doesn't matter... I might vote Obama just to rock the boat a tad bit.  Who knows, not I.

quote:

---

Originally posted by cannon_fodder

RM:  

The Electoral Vote map you linked to uses poll data as old as September of 2007 (1 year old) to make its prediction.  Notably in "weak democratic" states Pennsylvania, Colorado, Washington, and neutral Florida.  Wisconsin is apparently from 2005.  

I would hazard to guess the relevance of that data is negligible.  The map is a good effort, but the source data needs significant work.

Real Clear Politics has a map using a conglomeration of the latest polls.  If there is a violent sudden swing in one poll, the state is shown as a toss up until confirmed by other polls.  In short, it seems to be an honest attempt to be unbiased:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/maps/obama_vs_mccain/

It has Obama in the lead, McCain closing, and MANY as toss ups.  All the usual suspects.
- - -

Palin is an interesting pick.  Thus far the criticisms I have heard are:
1) Over selling her resume (bridge, plane, etc.)
2) She has a retarded child and should stay home
3) Pregnant daughter + abstinence only = hypocrite
and 4) She's conservative (criticizing positions/actions along those lines).

Pretty much everything else is just noise.  Per diem pay, religion, etc are all irrelevant this far.  Just not much substance and to me it appears to be a shotgun approach... maybe something will stick.  The issues that are there may persuade people NOT to vote for her, but certainly someone who likes he isn't going to care that she followed state law on travel allowances etc.

The religious issues are a bit concerning to me, but in context they put me at ease.  At first report I thought she was a "god said so" teach creationism type person...  it appears SHE is, but is a step back from that (and Bush) on governing with that philosophy.

- - -

For the record, I don't think I have a horse in this race.  If I could, I'd be voting 3rd party.  As it stands, since Oklahoma will be comfortable McCain territory and my vote doesn't matter... I might vote Obama just to rock the boat a tad bit.  Who knows, not I.

---

What a lying liar...welcome back.  [;)]

Note to CF:

In your absence, some members have resorted to channeling MichaelC/Neptune of late.  We are all liars now.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Conan71

Note to CF:

In your absence, some members have resorted to channeling MichaelC/Neptune of late.  We are all liars now.

---

Why don't you stop lying you republijerk bushevik koolaid drinker.

quote:

---

Originally posted by iplaw

quote:

---

Originally posted by Conan71

Note to CF:

In your absence, some members have resorted to channeling MichaelC/Neptune of late.  We are all liars now.

---

Why don't you stop lying you republijerk bushevik koolaid drinker.

---

(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff302/slypuck2/obama_koolaid.gif)

CF, did you get cleansed? Sure sounds like you are more a voice of reason since your return. Or, maybe it's the contrast with Crash, Ip, Con, etc. Anyway, it's nice seeing reasonableness return to the TNF board. The devil has been dragged down to their hellashish level but can take the heat better than they can.

But please, don't go displaying your master debating techniques until the real debates commence. OK?[;)]

I like the post about all the current polling being meaningless and it's really about the last man standing. Both sides are flawed and there are plenty of chances for major screw ups to go around. Everybody rah, rahs for their candidates though. Especially in a forum like this.

For me, it comes down to overriding philosophy/doctrine.I know what the Republican Party base stands for and I know what the Democratic Party base stands for. There may be times that I wouldn't vote Republican, but there is never a time I will vote for a Democrat. Even a Conservative Democrat will tow the Party line, when push comes to shove. I can't vote for that. Their Party line is Liberal and Socialist, even if they are not. This is anathema to me and destructive to all that I believe has made this country great.

Many will argue the successful and needed Social and Liberal reforms of the past are proof that they are right, regarding current attempts at Liberal and Social reform. What I see in current attempts are attacks on our constitution and the eventual downfall of the United States. Certain Liberal and Socialist reforms have most definitely been needed, but they've all been achieved, many years past and for years now, have gone well beyond what is needed and responsible. The pendulum has swung way to far to the left.

I think most Democrats, from 50 years ago and earlier, would be Republicans today. Take a look, even at JFK's speeches and what he stood for. Do you think FDR would support the extreme left wing views of modern Liberalism? Come on now..., above all, to thine own self be true. Even if you come out disagreeing in a posted response, you know your Party is so far off the reservation, nobody from the past would recognize it as their Democratic Party today. You are TOOOOOOO EXTREEEEEME. I know, opinions are like @ss holes, everybody has one, but I've studied the past and anyone willing to admit the truth knows I'm not off the mark.

We'll argue until we are blue in the face and defend candidates that many times, don't deserve our defense. Common guys, both sides man up here. From my perspective, it's not so much about the candidate, as it is the candidate defending the Party platform and what we stand for. If the candidate goes against the Party platform, even a Republican, I won't vote for them. McCain was almost there, but he saved face with Palin. Any sliver of hope to save this nation is worth fighting for, no matter which Party you stand for and what you see as destructive. That's why we post on these crazy forums and that's why we vote. [;)]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Conan71

Note to CF:

In your absence, some members have resorted to channeling MichaelC/Neptune of late.  We are all liars now.

---

Maybe you should get a real job like at McDonald's... if you worked for minumum wage 40 hours per week, maybe you'd be too tired to post Republican blather ad infinitum... [:o)]

And yes, Conan.... you've done the job of LYING for the Republican spin machine the past few weeks/months...

I'd rather not vote for/against Mayor Taylor based on some weird scandal that involves voting in two states?.... I'd rather not vote for/against the River Tax based on whether one Kaiser-favored aspect of the plan is not to my liking... I'd rather not vote for/against McCain or Obama based on which one is better on earmarks when the GOP has historically run up deficits far more damaging to this country than anything FDR or LBJ ever did....

I will vote for anyone who can deliver a system that is closer to universal health care.  I will vote for anyone who can make the current healthcare system more fair and equitable.  I was lucky.  I paid my healthcare bills this year.... but if my cancer had been diagnosed two years ago, I woulda lost EVERYTHING.  

Why does the McCain campaign continue to focus on bizarre sound bite polarizing politics???  What ever happened to the John McCain of 2000???  

What a joke. This kind of BS just rolls off people's backs and makes Sarah even stronger in the polls.

McCain has won, save the others while you can.

quote:

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Originally posted by HazMatCFO

What a joke. This kind of BS just rolls off people's backs and makes Sarah even stronger in the polls.

McCain has won, save the others while you can.

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No.  McCain has made a purely politically calculated move to solidify the Huckabee vote... McCain has won Oklahoma and the same assortment of red states that LOVE focusing on god, guns and gays.

This election will not be decided until election day...  when people focus on real issues... it's better that way.

Here, have some God, Guns and Gays...

(http://bp0.blogger.com/_7-ywsAgfzig/R2YIcxV9ghI/AAAAAAAAAxY/dLVIK7bRYDA/s320/Bread+and+Circuses.jpg)

quote:

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Originally posted by RecycleMichael

I opened an intrade account.

I just now got "Palin to withdraw" at 20 to 1 odds.

My twenty five dollars will turn into $500 if "Sarah Palin to be withdrawn as Republican VP nominee/candidate before 2008 presidential election."

Anybody here want to take my action as well?

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My credit card and Intrade would not play together last time I tried or I would have scored on the Obama ticket.

Yes...most American credit card companies don't allow you to do business with foreign gambling sites.

Mail them a check or set up an online bank account.