I have followed this building since I moved to Tulsa. In fact, it is what brought me to this forum to start with... trying to figure out what, if anything, would replace Hardwoods. It turned out Hardwoods reopened, then reclosed, then reopened, then changed names, then closed for renovation and never opened, then opened with nice renovations, then closed, then reopened as BALLERZ and quickly closed.
Well... that building at 11th and Gary (across from Skelly Stadium) is open again. This time as a coffee shop/bistro and a bar.
http://www.thecollectivetulsa.com/
The building has been redone to be a bit more cozy. Couches, elevated tables, booths and of course the bar. Dyed concrete floors, understated colors, and an overall quiet atmosphere. No TV's that I recall. Several students hovering and studying. One of the proprietors is an art student/teacher or some such thing and the decor relays that bit of info well.
The West side of the building is a cross between the now defunct Saffron's (standard issue coffee shop) and the Atlas Grill. They offer a wife variety of coffees (which I am not qualified to comment on as I drink black coffee) and a menu similar to the Atlas Grill downtown. 8 Sandwiches, several soups, various salads, and 3 eclectic flat bread pizzas as well as other assorted items (breakfast sandwiches, random things here and there).
The sandwiches are fairly priced from $6-8 with a side. From BLTs with a twist (sun dried tomato mayo) to strange concoctions of ham, green apple, and other bits of goodness. My wife had the BLT ("the Mayo"), I had the "Golden Driller" (their club sandwich), and my boy had aflat bread pizza ("The Centennial"). I was very satisfied with mine, my wife's only complaint was the scant 3 pieces of bacon and relative small size of the sandwich, and my boys had no complaints. The meal for 3 cost ~$25 with drinks, I was comfortably full.
The East side of the building is the bar area. It has a small stage (bands perform regularly in addition to art shows), couches, tables and the bar itself. They have a full bar and the only thing on tap is Marshall beers. They have the Marshall IPA, the
wheat, and they will be carrying the seasonal brews when they are out. I was there at 5:30, but for a reporter doing an interview the bar side was very quiet.
There is also an outdoor patio area where alcohol will be served during TU games.
The Marshall beer and the "Driller" sandwich go along with an overall TULSA theme to the Collective. All the menu items have local names, the art work is local, the bands will be local, and even the beer is local.
One of the owners (names are NOT my strong suit) came over and chatted with us for a good while. He and his wife decided to strike out on their own and the young couple have now done so. Very nice guy, laid back. I wish him the best of luck.
Overall I admit to being a little underwhelmed at first. Another laid back coffee shop place. The food was good, the prices were OK, and the atmosphere was nice. It just didn't strike me as a place that stood out.
HOWEVER, the quiet bar atmosphere could catch on with me (not sure if it is non-smoking or not, I would be a HUGE fan if it was). Marshall on tap is a huge plus. While the food is not affair that I often crave, it will be a nice change from time to time. Throw in a Tulsa theme and a friendly owner and I will definitely be going back from time to time.
I can definitely recommend stopping by. The owner was appreciative (or pretended to be) of the feedback we offered, so feel free to do the same. Best of luck to the place... one would think the location is great.
http://www.thecollectivetulsa.com/
(menu and prices on the website)
[edit]couches...[/edit]
I'm excited to try The Collective. I saw a segment about it on "Up Late with Ben Sumner" this past weekend and it looks and sounds like the kind of place I would really dig. I plan on hitting it up on Saturday when my sister comes to visit. Thanks for the review!
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
I have followed this building since I moved to Tulsa. In fact, it is what brought me to this forum to start with... trying to figure out what, if anything, would replace Hardwoods. It turned out Hardwoods reopened, then reclosed, then reopened, then changed names, then closed for renovation and never opened, then opened with nice renovations, then closed, then reopened as BALLERZ and quickly closed.
Well... that building at 11th and Gary (across from Skelly Stadium) is open again. This time as a coffee shop/bistro and a bar.
http://www.thecollectivetulsa.com/
The building has been redone to be a bit more cozy. Coaches, elevated tables, booths and of course the bar. Dyed concrete floors, understated colors, and an overall quiet atmosphere. No TV's that I recall. Several students hovering and studying. One of the proprietors is an art student/teacher or some such thing and the decor relays that bit of info well.
The West side of the building is a cross between the now defunct Saffron's (standard issue coffee shop) and the Atlas Grill. They offer a wife variety of coffees (which I am not qualified to comment on as I drink black coffee) and a menu similar to the Atlas Grill downtown. 8 Sandwiches, several soups, various salads, and 3 eclectic flat bread pizzas as well as other assorted items (breakfast sandwiches, random things here and there).
The sandwiches are fairly priced from $6-8 with a side. From BLTs with a twist (sun dried tomato mayo) to strange concoctions of ham, green apple, and other bits of goodness. My wife had the BLT ("the Mayo"), I had the "Golden Driller" (their club sandwich), and my boy had aflat bread pizza ("The Centennial"). I was very satisfied with mine, my wife's only complaint was the scant 3 pieces of bacon and relative small size of the sandwich, and my boys had no complaints. The meal for 3 cost ~$25 with drinks, I was comfortably full.
The East side of the building is the bar area. It has a small stage (bands perform regularly in addition to art shows), coaches, tables and the bar itself. They have a full bar and the only thing on tap is Marshall beers. They have the Marshall IPA, the
wheat, and they will be carrying the seasonal brews when they are out. I was there at 5:30, but for a reporter doing an interview the bar side was very quiet.
There is also an outdoor patio area where alcohol will be served during TU games.
The Marshall beer and the "Driller" sandwich go along with an overall TULSA theme to the Collective. All the menu items have local names, the art work is local, the bands will be local, and even the beer is local.
One of the owners (names are NOT my strong suit) came over and chatted with us for a good while. He and his wife decided to strike out on their own and the young couple have now done so. Very nice guy, laid back. I wish him the best of luck.
Overall I admit to being a little underwhelmed at first. Another laid back coffee shop place. The food was good, the prices were OK, and the atmosphere was nice. It just didn't strike me as a place that stood out.
HOWEVER, the quiet bar atmosphere could catch on with me (not sure if it is non-smoking or not, I would be a HUGE fan if it was). Marshall on tap is a huge plus. While the food is not affair that I often crave, it will be a nice change from time to time. Throw in a Tulsa theme and a friendly owner and I will definitely be going back from time to time.
I can definitely recommend stopping by. The owner was appreciative (or pretended to be) of the feedback we offered, so feel free to do the same. Best of luck to the place... one would think the location is great.
http://www.thecollectivetulsa.com/
(menu and prices on the website)
Are you meaning to say couchs every time you use the term coaches? Otherwise, where did they get so many coaches to hang out like that?
Best part is, it's less than a 1/2 mile stagger home for me. [}:)]
I'm excited to go enjoy the menu, coffee, and beer. Not necessarily in that order!
quote:
Originally posted by joiei
Are you meaning to say couchs every time you use the term coaches? Otherwise, where did they get so many coaches to hang out like that?
No. I meant to say
couches both times (ie. "every time") I said "coaches." "Couchs" isn't a word. And I'm willing to bet we could spot some coaches in there from time to time.
If you are going to sharp shoot, at least make sure you are correct. [:P]
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
quote:
Originally posted by joiei
Are you meaning to say couchs every time you use the term coaches? Otherwise, where did they get so many coaches to hang out like that?
No. I meant to say couches both times (ie. "every time") I said "coaches." "Couchs" isn't a word. And I'm willing to bet we could spot some coaches in there from time to time.
If you are going to sharp shoot, at least make sure you are correct. [:P]
You also said they have a "wife variety of coffees" if you want to be picky.
Does one have to be assimilated to join the Collective? I just don't think those Borg implants are going to work with the look I am going for this season. [:P]
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
Does one have to be assimilated to join the Collective?
Totally thought that too. I call "Locutus".
(http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/funny-pictures-lolcatus-borg.jpg)
Went to the Collective for the first time yesterday, and I loved it!
I had the Golden Driller sandwich with pita and hummus for the side. Portions were generous, and everything seemed very fresh. The staff was friendly, and when the owner showed up, he came over and chatted with our table for a while about PlaniTulsa and how he wishes downtown were more walkable in the dead spots between Blue Dome, Brady, East End, etc...
I give the place an A.
Wow, this place sounds interesting. "The Golden Driller" was the first thing that caught my eye on the menu, glad to hear it tastes good. Not to mention "The Outsider."
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
You also said they have a "wife variety of coffees" if you want to be picky.
Maybe I MEANT wife variety of coffees. Ever think of that, donkey. [:P] Someday spell checker will have a common-sense check to it also. Until them, I will be fodder for sharp shooters on the internets.
GO TRY THE COLLECTIVE, let me know what you think.
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
GO TRY THE COLLECTIVE, let me know what you think.
Dug it. Very friendly folks and comfortable inside.
Here are a few of the more interesting menu items:
The Camelot..........7.29
Honey Ham, Green Apple, Pepper Jack, Red Onion, Mayo and Brown Sugar on Ciabatta Bread
The Zingo...........7.29
Smoked Turkey, Mozzarella, horseradish, spicy mustard, lettuce and whole berry cranberry sauce on Ciabatta Bread
Center of the Universe......5.99
Honey Ham, Apricot Jelly, Melted Brie and Lettuce on Focaccia.
Club Sandwich is call the The Golden Driller, Veggie Pita is called The Greenwood and there is an avocado and cheese sandwich called The Atlas Life.
"Cream Crumbles" for dessert.
Just read a MySpace bulletin from The Collective indicating that they are closed indefinitely as of today. :( Serious bummer. I really liked their food.
Quote from: kylieosu on April 06, 2009, 03:24:42 PM
Just read a MySpace bulletin from The Collective indicating that they are closed indefinitely as of today. :( Serious bummer. I really liked their food.
From the Tulsa World blogs . . . http://www.tulsaworld.com/webextra/blogs/weblog.aspx?column_id=29#4731
I liked what they were trying to do and I feel for them. That said, I went there on a Friday night once and the band playing ran us off. I'm all about experimental music, but this group was just noise.
The bar was usually pretty slow, if there was anyone working it.
The creativity of the menu item names sort of subsumed their substance. You can name a couple of things after places in Tulsa, but after awhile, it gets hard to tell the difference between what's on the Golden Driller vs. the Center of the Universe. Call a turkey sandwich a turkey sandwich. When I ate there, I spent some time scratching my head about the menu.
The folks running it are very nice people and that was the right idea. I have no doubt the rent was a big issue. To make that rent, you probably need high volume. But that location may preclude high volume (it's not that big and the bar is hard to get to if its busy) and quality. I think whoever owns the building needs a reality check.
Wow, what a disappointment. The wife and I were just saying we needed to go back there. I'm surprised nothing can survive there being so close to campus.
edit: now I'm reading the comments about the rent and its making a bit more sense.
Saddened, but not shocked. They brought back to the neighborhood an element that was lost when Saffron's closed. I was in there a couple of weeks ago, Coleen said their rent was $4500 a month, that's robbery for that space. I hate to see them go, but there's no way they were doing enough volume to sustain that. It seems it should have been a slam dunk so close to campus, but I'm frequently wrong about the spending habits of TU students in the immediate neighborhood.
Quote from: Conan71 on April 06, 2009, 04:54:50 PM
It seems it should have been a slam dunk so close to campus, but I'm frequently wrong about the spending habits of TU students in the immediate neighborhood.
I have said this time and time again... TU does not need any more bar/cafe/coffee places. The students are already being serviced by multiple on-campus locations, brookside, cherry street, and Utica Square. Many of the students already have their favorite places (Shades of Brown, Starbucks, etc.). The same applies to bar/pubs, as many students already have their favorite locations downtown, cherry street, and so forth.
I have a theory that if someone were to open something there in the entertainment services arena, it would need to be able to survive at least 4 years to let the established students cycle out of the system and allow new students to become comfortable with the place as an alternative hang out.
Some sort of retail might do well in that spot, or a even non-competing entertainment business. But right now, the students are already being pulled in too many other directions...
It certainly stinks that it is closing, and I definately wish the best of luck to the previous owners.
That's too bad. It is always sad to see a local place that is really trying not make it when the lines are out the door for the chains down on 71st.
Quote from: TURobY on April 06, 2009, 05:23:51 PM
I have said this time and time again... TU does not need any more bar/cafe/coffee places. The students are already being serviced by multiple on-campus locations, brookside, cherry street, and Utica Square. Many of the students already have their favorite places (Shades of Brown, Starbucks, etc.). The same applies to bar/pubs, as many students already have their favorite locations downtown, cherry street, and so forth.
I have a theory that if someone were to open something there in the entertainment services arena, it would need to be able to survive at least 4 years to let the established students cycle out of the system and allow new students to become comfortable with the place as an alternative hang out.
Some sort of retail might do well in that spot, or a even non-competing entertainment business. But right now, the students are already being pulled in too many other directions...
It certainly stinks that it is closing, and I definately wish the best of luck to the previous owners.
While I am glad the TU students are supporting those other areas... it seems kind of, unusual for a college to not have a pedestrian friendly strip of shops, restaurants, coffee shops, etc. within walking distance. The stuff on campus doesnt count. So laaame and no character.
If I had the money I would strip out all that stuff across from TU on 11th and replace it with 3 and 4 story buildings all done in an old world, collegiate, gothic style. Wide sidewalk with a stone loggia on the shops, balconies on the second floor. Big trees and gas lamp posts lining the street. Cool funky coffee shop, sidewalk cafe, shops, bookstore, gift store, sports bar/pub, etc. on the first floor and living above. A great place thats comfortable and inviting, thats right there for the students and neighborhood to enjoy... not a friggin Arbys lol. Unless they were IN one of those buildings.
But perhaps TU is to small and the students wouldnt like anything like that? Doesnt sound like they would support something nearby?
Quote from: Conan71 on April 06, 2009, 04:54:50 PM
Saddened, but not shocked. They brought back to the neighborhood an element that was lost when Saffron's closed. I was in there a couple of weeks ago, Coleen said their rent was $4500 a month, that's robbery for that space. I hate to see them go, but there's no way they were doing enough volume to sustain that. It seems it should have been a slam dunk so close to campus, but I'm frequently wrong about the spending habits of TU students in the immediate neighborhood.
That is high for that space and area at this time. But you run into that a lot in Tulsa, Downtown the Pearl District etc. The owners would rather the buildings sit empty and fall apart than ask reasonable rents that little start up businesses can afford.
I know of the landlord who has the property..I am being polite when I say he is jerk...so sorry to hear about another local place going down..for the neighborhood it is like death in the family..I think whatever goes in that location has to be built for the neighborhood with TU as only an added benefit..I personally love 11th street as it's honest and not full of itself as Peoria and Cherry St can be..Although we have lost a friend in The Collective..we still have our places what with Tally's, Ella's, Dena's and Rancho Grande holding down the fort on 11th
Quote from: TheArtist on April 06, 2009, 06:13:31 PM
While I am glad the TU students are supporting those other areas... it seems kind of, unusual for a college to not have a pedestrian friendly strip of shops, restaurants, coffee shops, etc. within walking distance. The stuff on campus doesnt count. So laaame and no character.
If I had the money I would strip out all that stuff across from TU on 11th and replace it with 3 and 4 story buildings all done in an old world, collegiate, gothic style. Wide sidewalk with a stone loggia on the shops, balconies on the second floor. Big trees and gas lamp posts lining the street. Cool funky coffee shop, sidewalk cafe, shops, bookstore, gift store, sports bar/pub, etc. on the first floor and living above. A great place thats comfortable and inviting, thats right there for the students and neighborhood to enjoy... not a friggin Arbys lol. Unless they were IN one of those buildings.
But perhaps TU is to small and the students wouldnt like anything like that? Doesnt sound like they would support something nearby?
I've always said the same thing, seems like there should be a streetfront retail area along 11th across from TU between Delaware and Harvard. Anyone know what used to be there before QT, Arby's, Taco Bell, etc. all reared their ugly heads? To do any kind of mixed-use in that area you would have to include lofts or office space above the retail, but being so close to TU I think that could work. I think a hotel, with street level retail space and parallel parking on 11th, would do well at the south end of TU's new oval, sort of a 'bookend' to Collings Hall in the same style and possibly run by TU. Any redevelopment of that streetscape would certainly help TU improve its image; it can't be too appealing for future students to see a slew of fast food joints right across from campus, especially in an otherwise fairly walkable part of Tulsa.
Quote from: TheArtist on April 06, 2009, 06:13:31 PM
While I am glad the TU students are supporting those other areas... it seems kind of, unusual for a college to not have a pedestrian friendly strip of shops, restaurants, coffee shops, etc. within walking distance. The stuff on campus doesnt count. So laaame and no character.
If I had the money I would strip out all that stuff across from TU on 11th and replace it with 3 and 4 story buildings all done in an old world, collegiate, gothic style. Wide sidewalk with a stone loggia on the shops, balconies on the second floor. Big trees and gas lamp posts lining the street. Cool funky coffee shop, sidewalk cafe, shops, bookstore, gift store, sports bar/pub, etc. on the first floor and living above. A great place thats comfortable and inviting, thats right there for the students and neighborhood to enjoy... not a friggin Arbys lol. Unless they were IN one of those buildings.
But perhaps TU is to small and the students wouldnt like anything like that? Doesnt sound like they would support something nearby?
TU itself had the money, and they ripped out a bunch of stuff and put in . . . suburban style apartments fronting 11th.
Quote from: TheArtist on April 06, 2009, 06:13:31 PM
But perhaps TU is to small and the students wouldnt like anything like that? Doesnt sound like they would support something nearby?
They'll support stuff nearby when they don't already have their favorite places cemented in their minds. That is why I said that if another food/beverage entertainment goes into the area, they'll need to have about 4 years' worth of patience for the current students to cycle through.
However, it is important to note that TU has a limited student base with (to my knowledge) no immediate intention to increase enrollment rates, so if you keep students in the TU area, you are drawing them away from other areas in the city. This has two negative consequences: businesses in other "trendy" parts of town will suffer, and students won't get a chance to discover the rest of Tulsa because they'll be confined to the TU neighborhood.
I'm not saying that there shouldn't be an effort to make the area more urban. But I am cautioning you that you can't build up the TU area without considering how it will affect the other neighborhoods. If we want to maintain the charm of Cherry Street and Brookside AND build up the TU area, we need more young profeesionals or a more active neighborhood surrounding the developments.
Quote from: SXSW on April 06, 2009, 08:44:57 PM
I've always said the same thing, seems like there should be a streetfront retail area along 11th across from TU between Delaware and Harvard. Anyone know what used to be there before QT, Arby's, Taco Bell, etc. all reared their ugly heads? To do any kind of mixed-use in that area you would have to include lofts or office space above the retail, but being so close to TU I think that could work. I think a hotel, with street level retail space and parallel parking on 11th, would do well at the south end of TU's new oval, sort of a 'bookend' to Collings Hall in the same style and possibly run by TU. Any redevelopment of that streetscape would certainly help TU improve its image; it can't be too appealing for future students to see a slew of fast food joints right across from campus, especially in an otherwise fairly walkable part of Tulsa.
I remember some of it as being interesting- The Library, the old Hideaway Pizza (the one Ken of Ken's Pizza worked in) a ConeyIsland, Buccaneer Bar and some joints and sandwich shops that came and went. Lots of Central and Rogers High School kids frequented 11th street. Probably as many as TU students. However, it has always been home to fast food including McDonalds, Sandy's, Arby's and Roy Rogers.
Metro Diner was an Arby's back in the late '70s. Before that it was a gas station. The Quik Trip location was home to a Sandy's, a tartan-themed fast-food chain that later became part of Hardee's. (Sandy's is not in the '57 Polk Directory, but the distinctive building shape is on the 1962 Sanborn map.) That stretch of 11th has been auto-oriented for as long as I can remember.
From the 1957 Polk Directory, north side of the street from Delaware to Harvard. I've not bothered to type in the names of all the used car lots:
2801 used cars
2805 used cars
2813 House of Gifts antiques
2815 residence
2817 Truog Luzia M chiropractor
2821 residence
2823 Campbell Radio & TV service
2827 E L Mendenhall Co contractors
2831 residence
2835 residence
2839 Don's Chili Bowl
2901 used cars
2907 Elbow Room beer
2911 vacant
2913 Walter's Dairy Store
3001 Finn Serv Sta
3201 Parrish & Clark used cars (they had a downtown new car dealership)
3217 used cars
3229 used cars
(according to Sanborn map, street-fronting retail from here to Harvard)
3241 Sun Bearing Supply auto parts & repair
3245 University Barber Shop
3247 Kit-Kat Club beer
3249 Catron Pharmacy
South side:
2802 Vacant
2814 Brownie's Root Beer (the one at 2130 S. Harvard was in this directory, too)
2826 Troy's Barbecue
2828 Vacant
2902 Stepp Serv Sta
2910 used cars [actually says "Fulton Car Mkt used cats"]
2924 used cars
3002 Eleventh St Mkt groceries
3006 Shug's Diner
3016 used cars
3020 York Realty Co; York Insurance
3024 Hago Sales Co household appliances
3102 used cars
3104 Vic's Lawn Mower & Bicycle Shop (street-fronting retail)
3106 Stadium Lounge beer (street-fronting retail with apartments above)
3108 1/2 Apartments (four units)
3120 used cars
3138 Deaton W E Serv Sta
3144 used cars
3148 Harvard Janitor Supplies (The Collective's building)
3202 used cars
3204 used cars
3224 used cars
3232 used cars
(according to Sanborn map, street-fronting retail from here to Harvard)
3238 Midwest Whol Co electrical supplies
3242 vacant
3244 Harvard Drugs Store
3248 vacant
TU's approach to campus design is suburban, auto oriented, and hostile to neighboring homes and retail. It's as if TU wants students to stay put on campus, rather than support nearby businesses.
It would be interesting to know if The Collective's building is owned free or clear or is mortgaged. Either way, you'd think some rent coming in would be better than no rent at all.
Quote from: MichaelBates on April 06, 2009, 10:46:54 PM
TU's approach to campus design is suburban, auto oriented, and hostile to neighboring homes and retail. It's as if TU wants students to stay put on campus, rather than support nearby businesses.
TU's approach to campus design is based upon the fact that student property and lives were being threatened from the neighborhoods to the west and north-west. I lived on campus before the gates were put up and there was a vehicle break-in nearly every day, and the students and parents complained. So, TU put up the fences and so far break-ins have decreased significantly. I can't say I'm wild about the fences but they are serving the students' interests.
As for auto-oriented, I would disagree. The parking lots have been slowly removed and been replaced by shuttle bus service. It is much easier to walk on campus than to drive due to the lack of parking. That's a huge change from when I was a freshman and everyone drove to class, even if it was in the next building over.
Quote from: MichaelBates on April 06, 2009, 10:46:54 PM
TU's approach to campus design is suburban, auto oriented, and hostile to neighboring homes and retail. It's as if TU wants students to stay put on campus, rather than support nearby businesses.
Roby hit this out of the park, but it needs more comments. Having followed your work, I know you like to take your shots at TU. I'll never forget the time your column lamented the removal of a head shop; great unintentional humor there.
TU's approach is HARDLY auto friendly. As an alum, I feel I have some knowledge here. TU does the best they can with a pretty small piece of real estate for the number of employees and students who live off campus. The school has done a serious revision of the parking policy and added a shuttle to transport students. While I was a student, parking became a bigger issue every year, finally reaching the point of people getting really nasty about it my last year and the school having to organize a bunch of town hall type meetings, which had a lot to do with the current system. I remember parking not being that big of an issue when I first started, back when the first set of apartments were going up. The campus has really changed.
The most frequent complaint I hear about the athletics program is that there isn't enough parking. Now, I feel a lot of that is the Okie attitude to parking (if I can't park next to it, I'm not going), but I also know enough that if you're not a student living on campus or a donor of more than about $200 a year, you're going to walk.
Most people would say there isn't enough parking and that, as a result, the campus has become much more pedestrian.
I'm not sure what TU has done to be hostile to neighboring homes and businesses, other than buy up the neighborhood. That's not in itself hostile. If anything, the majority of businesses across 11th benefit substantially from the campus and the nearby homes have higher property values (generally, it's a great investment to buy near a university). To wit, the neighboring Kendall Whittier neighborhood, notably the school, needs TU's contribution to survive and grow; TU has donated countless service hours, resources, and staff in that school in order to improve the neighborhood.
I'll eagerly await your remarks, especially when you bring up Starship and another potential rant about
Kelo. I'll remind you now, that was a head shop that contributed little of value to the neighborhood. And I'll enjoy the religious conservative's delicate handling of the issue and the related unintentional humor. Popcorn is cooking right now. ;D
I too heard the rent was the killer. Apparently they tried to buy the building and were flat out rejected. The business was growing and they were making a profit, but the rent was raised and started to suck it all up.
Since 2003:
Hardwoods owner 1
Hardwoods owner 2
Hardwoods owner 3 (this was called something else for a short time)
Ballerz
The Collective
One bar closed across the street in 2003-04. So the 3 remaining bars (Hardwoods, the Buck, and whatever that other one is that clearly says prep students not welcome) split the customer base. The Buck always does well as a dive bar. The other one is branded as a quasi biker bar. Leaving the Hardwoods location as a "normal" bar.
Hardwoods as a sports bar was usually fairly busy. On game day you could sell as many cans as you could pass out at $5 each. On a normal day it was OK (the incarnations as a sports bar went DOWNHILL fast - no sports package, no liquor license).
I went to the collective a few dozen times since it opened. It was never dead. Often fairly busy. On weekends with music it got packed. Over lunch it was steady. Game days they had pretty good traffic. Football days they sold a ton of beer. The atmosphere seemed perfect for a TU crowd. Artsy, calm coffee bar that has alcohol and live music. A nice patio to sit at on spring days or summer evenings.
I was just in there for lunch on Thursday too. Glad I had one more go before it closed up.
I'll assume the consistent factor here was the owner insisting on overcharging for rent. So for the 6th time in as many years the building sits empty. That has to help him a ton.
QuoteTulsa—
We must inform you that as of Monday, April 6th, The Collective is closing indefinitely. We have been struggling against the downturn in the economy for a few months now. With expenses escalating, and an extremely high rent payment, we were unable to continue serving you. After extended negotiations with our Landlord in an attempt to purchase the building, we could not come to an amenable agreement that benefited both parties. We hope you enjoyed your patronage here, and we hope that we were able to bring some comfort and happiness into your lives. We will continue to try to serve Tulsa in the capacities that we can in the future. Comments and concerns can be sent to thecollectivetulsa@gmail.com. As always we will try to respond promptly and honestly.
It is important to say that our closing is not due to a lack of support from this community. Word of mouth, news outlets and return customers helped us to be more successful than most businesses starting out. We thank you for your continued patronage. Everyone would like to think that they made a positive change on their environment. We would like to think that The Collective created a community atmosphere and arts-based business that hadn't previously existed in this location. Thank you for making this possible for us, and thank you for the opportunity to serve you. We are deeply saddened by this turn of events, and if nothing else, please continue to support locally owned, Tulsa friendly businesses for they are the lifeblood of our community.
http://www.thecollectivetulsa.com/Welcome.html
On the off topic TU rant in general . . .
I moved to Tulsa in 2003. The Northern Frontage of 11th street was ugly, in disrepair, and underutilized. People bashed TU as being a school "you could drive by on 11th and not even realize it's there."
While I liked Starship as an interesting music store and place to get rolling papers, I like Wendy's as much as the next guy, and thought Metro was a fun place to eat - only one of them chose to take their buyout money and relocate. The rest pocketed the cash and walked away. And the one that relocated was probably the only one the University was actually happy to chase out of the neighborhood.
Now you definitely can not drive by and fail to notice that there is a school there. But the horror of a University growing at the expense of a diner, a fast food joint, an abandon bar and a head shop is too much (btw, they paid out the nose for that land).
I won't bother talking about the knock downs that came before in Kendall Whittier. Frankly, the portion of Kendall Whittier that is closest to TU would be lucky to be knocked down and rebuilt as part of campus. My son went to daycare at Kendall Whittier and the apartments are horribly run down, the houses haven't seen a coat of paint in 2 decades - it's not a great thing to point at really either.
Similarly, anyone that thinks TU is a trending towards being a driving campus is utterly clueless. While I agree that it is interspersed with many campus roads and faculty lots - the trend has been away from parking lots. The campus apartments, new alumni center, Case Center, Mosque, grand entrance and the new engineering center as well as the planned performing arts center take away parking. I'm not aware of any significant parking that is to be added in its place. The Don Rey has about 20% of the parking it "needs" and the football stadium less than that.
More importantly, why do you think they build so many apartment buildings? They are trying to get away from being a commuter school. For a campus of it's size in a semi-urban setting (this isn't downtown Chicago or DC), it's about as pedestrian as it gets I'm afraid. And I hope they continue to improve.
But for some reason, to about 50% of Tulsan's improving the University of Tulsa means having it just go away. Maybe someone needs to explain that to me. I understand it is frustrating to have them growing into neighborhoods, but on the balance isn't growth of the highest rated University in the State that happens to be IN TULSA a good thing?
(and, fwiw, the Collective team specifically said they are not closing due to lack of patronage)
I think we just lament the fact that TU, in an effort to become a more residential campus, has gone the suburban-looking apartment route to achieve that goal. TU has plenty of money and could've done something much nicer that better integrates the school into the neighborhood. Take for instance Case Western University in Cleveland. It's located in a semi-urban neighborhood a few miles from downtown like TU. Instead of building bland apartments they built an urban complex with an adjacent parking garage that fronts a busy street through campus and surrounds an athletic field. Something like this would've been much better for TU's 11th street frontage around its new oval (albeit in TU sandstone and not brick)..
(http://www.case.edu/alumni/news/images/Village%20Const.jpg)
While I would be happy to have TU build a more urban landscape - they build what the students wanted and what the surrounding area was not providing. For whatever reason, kids want to live in apartment buildings in neighborhoods. So that's what they got.
Also, Case Western is a bit different. They have 2.5 times more kids and are landlocked. Buying up land to build a less dense alternative for on campus housing was not really an option:
http://maps.google.com/maps?source=ig&hl=en&q=Case+Western+University&ie=UTF8&ll=41.503146,-81.606885&spn=0.005448,0.009656&t=h&z=17
I would love it if TU was in an area like Case Western. Unfortunately there are no real walking areas in Tulsa. The museums are really spread out and at drive-to only destinations. The aquarium and zoo are both drive to only. Frankly, there are very few destinations in Tulsa that you can park and do several things. Case Western is in a very interesting part of Cleveland.
Again, I hope TU continues to improve it's academic rankings and can grow it's student base at the same time. I'd like to see more dense residential areas grow up around the campus. Either with the University as a driving force or local developers. I lament the implication that the area (or Tulsa in general) is somehow worse of for having the University.
Quote from: cannon_fodder on April 07, 2009, 08:38:36 AM
I
Since 2003:
Hardwoods owner 1
Hardwoods owner 2
Hardwoods owner 3 (this was called something else for a short time)
Ballerz
The Collective
Going back another year or two, before there was the Hardwood, I believe originally owned by the Rogers family, there was a place called Big Brothers that tried to due a 24 hr diner thing with a bar. I have no recollection of what was there before 2001; I just remember driving by on day and noticing a remodel. Big Brothers was pretty average and started the general trend of bad bars there.
The first Hardwood was a great college bar. They had something crazy like like $4.00 pitchers of Boulevard (somehow they listed it is a domestic). We did some serious damage there before the TU-Kansas game back in '02 or so. The place usually had good live music and the food wasn't bad. It did some serious business.
Hardwood changed hands several times, finally being run by folks who would do anything to make a buck, including selling to underage kids on drown nights. The last guy to own Hardwood was so unbelievably sketchy.
Generally, the problem with that bar is that it struggles in the summer months when TU students are gone. I remember some total weirdos there during the week. Maybe I'm one of them? ;)
At some point, there was a shooting there (don't think it involved TU students, but the other miscreants the place attacted) and that sort of signaled the end. TU students either go downtown or to the Buc. And at some point, TU was running a shuttle to Brookside and downtown to cut down on drinking and driving. Not sure if that program continued.
After Hardwood, there was the totally awful sports bar that had all the HDTVs; they were famous in the TU sports fan world for promising to air a TU-BYU game (no one else in town had it), then never managing to get it on the air. I remember getting a call from the famous Bill Babb asking whether they had pulled it off. Instead, we got to watch a bouncer fight a belligerent OU fan with a mullet.
Like I hinted at above, I don't think the layout is conducive to the purpose that facility has most often been used for, a sports bar for college students. It's too easy to trip on a step and too hard to get to the bar if it's crowded. The design is probably really tough for wait staff to maneuver. I'm usually not much of a design guy, but I've thought of these issues while waiting for unusually long times over the years.
The Collective was very much a step in the right direction and it's a shame to see it go.
Of course, if you really want to have the TU bar discussion, you can't leave out JR's. ;D Now that was a college bar. It was a total dive, but had a line outside the door to get in. Of course, they had some issues with selling to people they weren't supposed to sell to, so the story goes.
* * *
As for the apartments issue, I hear the complaint about the design. The 11th street apartments were not the first on campus with that design. I imagine TU just wanted them to match the others around campus. While some on here look down at them, and I'll admit I question them some, the addition of apartments has been, as far I have heard, a huge part of TU's growth over the last decade. Students prefer to live in them and I imagine the school makes a pretty healthy margin on them compared to the dorms. Also, I have heard just as many people say they like the design, notably fans of visiting schools playing in athletic events at TU. John Calipari even once said he wouldn't mind living in them. The apartments certainly aren't any less aesthetically valuable that the exterminator, dry cleaner, head shop, fast food place, abandoned college bar, and silly 50's themed diner (that wasn't good) before.
Quote from: cannon_fodder on April 07, 2009, 08:38:36 AM
Ballerz
This was the best name! Changing the "S" to a "Z?" Who thinks of that? That Z is what really made it awesome.
/sarcasm
They have basically no parking on the property The Collective was on and have to rely on the neighborhood street or the parking lot of the Hurricane Center or whatever that center is called with Ella's, Ed's, and the laundromat. If all close parking is taken, people will have a tendency to keep on driving.
With TURobY's post, it makes me curious if it's just easier for some TU students to pile in a car and drive to Brookside, Cherry St., Utica Square, or Blue Dome than to walk 1/4 mile to an establishment across the street. Not implying that TU students are lazy at all...just seems odd that when there's a cozy, hip place with reasonable food and bar prices right there, why go a few miles to get somewhere else? I have to admit to being guilty of that myself considering I live between 1/4 and 1/2 mile from there and was not a regular patron, then again I'm not a regular at Ed's or the Buc either. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been in either of those places in the four years I've lived in the 'hood.
Why is that when we gripe about wanting walkable neighborhoods we don't seem to take advantage of it?
Quote from: Conan71 on April 07, 2009, 11:04:17 AM
With TURobY's post, it makes me curious if it's just easier for some TU students to pile in a car and drive to Brookside, Cherry St., Utica Square, or Blue Dome than to walk 1/4 mile to an establishment across the street. Not implying that TU students are lazy at all...just seems odd that when there's a cozy, hip place with reasonable food and bar prices right there, why go a few miles to get somewhere else?
Remember, The Collective was relatively new. The students didn't have much choice before but to visit other areas of town. Shades of Brown has had a few years to develop a relationship with the students, thus their loyalty. Other students are comfortable with Starbucks because they had a Starbucks in their town. Still others just aren't interested in the "coffeehouse/cafe" concept.
From previous posts, it sounds like students were starting to shift there, which is a good sign that The Collective was on the right path. But, as I've said, it will take time because most of the students already have their places that they are loyal to.
I still think that that location would be better served as retail than restaurant/bar. Something similar to Dwelling Spaces would be nice...
One of the things I liked about this place was it's one of the few establishments along 11th by TU that fronts the sidewalk with an outdoor seating area. It is unfortunate the owner sounds like a real prick. Hopefully they move their establishment to another area. The Pearl needs a place like this for sure.
Quote from: TURobY on April 07, 2009, 11:27:29 AM
Remember, The Collective was relatively new. The students didn't have much choice before but to visit other areas of town. Shades of Brown has had a few years to develop a relationship with the students, thus their loyalty. Other students are comfortable with Starbucks because they had a Starbucks in their town. Still others just aren't interested in the "coffeehouse/cafe" concept.
From previous posts, it sounds like students were starting to shift there, which is a good sign that The Collective was on the right path. But, as I've said, it will take time because most of the students already have their places that they are loyal to.
I still think that that location would be better served as retail than restaurant/bar. Something similar to Dwelling Spaces would be nice...
That all sounds really plausible. I think it's great students would be that loyal to concepts they discover and maintain that for four years. Sounds as if the Collective owners really needed to have at least a couple of years capital saved to make that fly...well that and not having a bastard for a landlord would have been nice. Unless I'm mistaken, looks as if the gas station next to this property finally shut down. I'm curious if the landlord knows something we don't and that's why he wouldn't sell and wouldn't make a concession on rent to keep a tennant in there.
No disrespect intended to the operators of The Collective, but just curious if maybe they were off on their projections and business model and thought they could sustain the overhead and rent and simply mis-calculated the demand and staked too much hope on TU students being their bread & butter. The Tulsa economy really isn't anywhere close to being a disaster so I don't buy the "economy sucks" claim for it's failure, er indefinite shut-down. Honestly, if it weren't for TulsaNow and living near there, I don't know that I would have even been aware it existed.
Heard a rather interesting story about the property from a business owner who has been in the area a long long time that the present owner of the Collective/Hardwood building bought it for 60K (I dont know how long ago) so pretty good return on that property especially the number of unsuccesful business forays over the years there..so it is just a cash cow for him..However before the present guy owned the property it was at one time there was a cigar maker there, any old timers remember that? I sure don't
I actually had body work done on my MG there in early 2000. Its had a checkered history for sure.
I believe that was Moulder-Oldham Company for years. They were a janitorial supply. I remember it still being there in the early 1990's, not sure when they retired.
Rule of thumb for restaurants...
rent=5% of gross....
otherwise, tough biness
What's up with that landlord? I've noticed lots of vacancies on 15th street lately. I loved the Collective and wish they could move closed to Urban Garden. The Kennel Shop across the street from me has closed, wished it would work for them but its too small. Its kinda depressing to look across the street and se :(e the Kennel Shop closed now. T
Quote from: Enid on April 16, 2009, 07:37:52 AM
What's up with that landlord? I've noticed lots of vacancies on 15th street lately. I loved the Collective and wish they could move closed to Urban Garden. The Kennel Shop across the street from me has closed, wished it would work for them but its too small. Its kinda depressing to look across the street and se :(e the Kennel Shop closed now. T
I didn't even know there was a kennel shop across from you and I only live a block away. Constructive criticism to all small neighborhood-based merchants: don't assume all the neighbors know your business is there just from signage. Don't be afraid to take flyers door-to-door, the vast majority of residents don't mind and would love to see worthwhile businesses that add to a neighborhood thrive.
Quote from: Conan71 on April 16, 2009, 10:05:14 AM
I didn't even know there was a kennel shop across from you and I only live a block away. Constructive criticism to all small neighborhood-based merchants: don't assume all the neighbors know your business is there just from signage. Don't be afraid to take flyers door-to-door, the vast majority of residents don't mind and would love to see worthwhile businesses that add to a neighborhood thrive.
Here, here. Promote yourself to the neighborhood.
To Enid's credit, I would like to point out that Urban Garden attended our (Renaissance) neighborhood association meeting. The owners of The Collective have also come. I'd love to see more neighborhood businesses be active in the neighborhood associations... that goes for areas all around the city.
Quote from: Gold on April 07, 2009, 09:23:36 AM
After Hardwood, there was the totally awful sports bar that had all the HDTVs; they were famous in the TU sports fan world for promising to air a TU-BYU game (no one else in town had it), then never managing to get it on the air. I remember getting a call from the famous Bill Babb asking whether they had pulled it off. Instead, we got to watch a bouncer fight a belligerent OU fan with a mullet.[/b]
It wasn't Brian Bosworth was it? ;D
Quote from: TURobY on April 16, 2009, 11:14:18 AM
To Enid's credit, I would like to point out that Urban Garden attended our (Renaissance) neighborhood association meeting. The owners of The Collective have also come. I'd love to see more neighborhood businesses be active in the neighborhood associations... that goes for areas all around the city.
I think Enid and her family have done a good job. Only thing I wish they'd do is stay open on Sunday. I hate to think how many people go on to Lowe's or HD when they figure out UG is closed. Sunday seems like it would be such a great high-volume day. Even if they opened at 12 or 12:30. (hint, hint... ;))
Speaking of Urban Garden, does anyone know if they sell vegetable starts, such as tomato plants and the like? I live just a block away and want to support the local guys when possible.
Quote from: tshane250 on April 16, 2009, 03:36:44 PM
Speaking of Urban Garden, does anyone know if they sell vegetable starts, such as tomato plants and the like? I live just a block away and want to support the local guys when possible.
Yep.
Didn't realize you lived so close, we are neighbors...at least for the next month or so.
Hi,
Yes we do have tomatoes, peppers, and squash. All kinds of herbs from Hogshooter Farms in Bartlesville. We are going to be opening on Sundays this year. I plan on opening this Sunday from 1-4 and every Sunday after that, except for April 26, when we will be at the OKC half marathon. I actually have enough business now that I've hired a worker bee. So now there are 3 of us there! Thanks for all the support from everyone. It was really tuff for a while but my hubby and I pulled out our amazing CPA skills and I started selling hydroponics to get me thru the winter months.
I hope to add a small greenhouse this fall (I'm working on a SBA loan, since I survived a year) and a small stage for acoustic music on Saturdays and for gardening/hydroponic seminars this summer. Does anyone know where I can find info about the permits, etc. for the music? Also I hope to begin selling microgreens and lettuce this fall and into winter.
Thanks again!
Quote from: Enid on April 17, 2009, 07:25:20 AM
Hi,
Yes we do have tomatoes, peppers, and squash. All kinds of herbs from Hogshooter Farms in Bartlesville. We are going to be opening on Sundays this year. I plan on opening this Sunday from 1-4 and every Sunday after that, except for April 26, when we will be at the OKC half marathon. I actually have enough business now that I've hired a worker bee. So now there are 3 of us there! Thanks for all the support from everyone. It was really tuff for a while but my hubby and I pulled out our amazing CPA skills and I started selling hydroponics to get me thru the winter months.
I hope to add a small greenhouse this fall (I'm working on a SBA loan, since I survived a year) and a small stage for acoustic music on Saturdays and for gardening/hydroponic seminars this summer. Does anyone know where I can find info about the permits, etc. for the music? Also I hope to begin selling microgreens and lettuce this fall and into winter.
Thanks again!
YESSSS!!!!!
You have no idea how many people this is going to please in the 'hood.
QuoteYes we do have tomatoes, peppers, and squash.
Excellent, I just happen to need tomatoes, peppers, and squash. Hopefully, I will be by sometime this weekend.
By the way , I love the cat picture. Kitty Porn! Its hott!
Quote from: TURobY on April 16, 2009, 11:14:18 AM
To Enid's credit, I would like to point out that Urban Garden attended our (Renaissance) neighborhood association meeting. The owners of The Collective have also come. I'd love to see more neighborhood businesses be active in the neighborhood associations... that goes for areas all around the city.
I think I may have just moved into this neighborhood(12th & Florence Ave). How often does this NA meet?
Quote from: brianh on April 20, 2009, 09:28:19 AM
I think I may have just moved into this neighborhood(12th & Florence Ave). How often does this NA meet?
Welcome to the neighborhood. The NA meets 2-3 times a year. You'll see little yard signs pop up around the neighborhood about a week before the meeting, or you can check the NA website: www.rnatulsa.com. You actually JUST missed the last meeting about a week or two ago.
Quote from: brianh on April 20, 2009, 09:28:19 AM
I think I may have just moved into this neighborhood(12th & Florence Ave). How often does this NA meet?
Welcome to the 'hood.
Quote from: Conan71 on April 20, 2009, 10:08:31 AM
Welcome to the 'hood.
Thanks, met a bunch of friendly neighbors so far. Should be a good experience.