Title: Obama: Everybody's Going To Have To Give
Post by: guido911 on January 11, 2009, 05:40:35 pm
It began at only those over $250K/year would get the tax increase, then over the course of the campaign that number was reduced. Now, I guess we all get to pay:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3684147&mesg_id=3684147
I love those lefties at DU.
Title: Obama: Everybody's Going To Have To Give
Post by: USRufnex on January 11, 2009, 07:37:39 pm
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
It began at only those over $250K/year would get the tax increase, then over the course of the campaign that number was reduced. Now, I guess we all get to pay:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3684147&mesg_id=3684147
I love those lefties at DU.
Title: Obama: Everybody's Going To Have To Give
Post by: Gaspar on January 12, 2009, 07:48:18 am
I understand it was about "Change" but can we stop changing yet? Looks like the old boss is back, and he hasn't even started yet.
Title: Obama: Everybody's Going To Have To Give
Post by: we vs us on January 12, 2009, 10:07:41 am
That whole "paralyzed with fear" thing was the LAST administration. Obama's, you know, being kind of honest with the people who elected him. Compare and contrast "we're all going to have to contribute" to "keep shopping like you always have or the terrorists will have won."
Or what, you all have something against shared sacrifice?
Title: Obama: Everybody's Going To Have To Give
Post by: guido911 on January 12, 2009, 10:41:31 am
quote:
Originally posted by we vs us
Obama's, you know, being kind of honest with the people who elected him. Compare and contrast "we're all going to have to contribute" to "keep shopping like you always have or the terrorists will have won."
Oh really, well who said this in 2004: "Look, I can unequivocally say I will not be running for national office in four years." Who also said he would accept federal financing for his presidential run (only to turn around and refuse)? Or how about his flip on FISA and telecom immunity? Or his position on universal healthcare. I cannot take this much honesty.
Title: Obama: Everybody's Going To Have To Give
Post by: Hoss on January 12, 2009, 11:02:56 am
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
quote:
Originally posted by we vs us
Obama's, you know, being kind of honest with the people who elected him. Compare and contrast "we're all going to have to contribute" to "keep shopping like you always have or the terrorists will have won."
Oh really, well who said this in 2004:
"Look, I can unequivocally say I will not be running for national office in four years."
Who also said he would accept federal financing for his presidential run (only to turn around and refuse)? Or how about his flip on FISA and telecom immunity? Or his position on universal healthcare.
I cannot take this much honesty.
Nov 7, 2005 George W Bush - "We do not torture". How's that for a whopper? Oh, but of course, Gweed will start calling me an 'Obama apologist'. I think someone's going to need to be doing some 'apologizing' for that lie. I'll put up with a lie about someone saying he wasn't going to run for national office over someone who lied about something covered in the Geneva Convention and something that could be considered a war crime.
Title: Obama: Everybody's Going To Have To Give
Post by: guido911 on January 12, 2009, 11:28:34 am
quote:
Originally posted by Hoss
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
quote:
Originally posted by we vs us
Obama's, you know, being kind of honest with the people who elected him. Compare and contrast "we're all going to have to contribute" to "keep shopping like you always have or the terrorists will have won."
Oh really, well who said this in 2004:
"Look, I can unequivocally say I will not be running for national office in four years."
Who also said he would accept federal financing for his presidential run (only to turn around and refuse)? Or how about his flip on FISA and telecom immunity? Or his position on universal healthcare.
I cannot take this much honesty.
Nov 7, 2005
George W Bush - "We do not torture".
How's that for a whopper?
Oh, but of course, Gweed will start calling me an 'Obama apologist'.
I think someone's going to need to be doing some 'apologizing' for that lie.
I'll put up with a lie about someone saying he wasn't going to run for national office over someone who lied about something covered in the Geneva Convention and something that could be considered a war crime.
First, I thought this thread was about Obama? What does Bush have to do with any of this? And yes, not only are you an Obama apologist, but I think you would do anything for him. Second, who specifically did the U.S. torture and what torture technique was utilized?
Title: Obama: Everybody's Going To Have To Give
Post by: Hoss on January 12, 2009, 12:29:19 pm
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
quote:
Originally posted by Hoss
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
quote:
Originally posted by we vs us
Obama's, you know, being kind of honest with the people who elected him. Compare and contrast "we're all going to have to contribute" to "keep shopping like you always have or the terrorists will have won."
Oh really, well who said this in 2004:
"Look, I can unequivocally say I will not be running for national office in four years."
Who also said he would accept federal financing for his presidential run (only to turn around and refuse)? Or how about his flip on FISA and telecom immunity? Or his position on universal healthcare.
I cannot take this much honesty.
Nov 7, 2005
George W Bush - "We do not torture".
How's that for a whopper?
Oh, but of course, Gweed will start calling me an 'Obama apologist'.
I think someone's going to need to be doing some 'apologizing' for that lie.
I'll put up with a lie about someone saying he wasn't going to run for national office over someone who lied about something covered in the Geneva Convention and something that could be considered a war crime.
First, I thought this thread was about Obama? What does Bush have to do with any of this? And yes, not only are you an Obama apologist, but I think you would do anything for him.
Second, who specifically did the U.S. torture and what torture technique was utilized?
Come on Gweed, I thought you'd be better at it than this. Abu Ghraib? Waterboarding? This has been talked about for 5 years now.
Title: Obama: Everybody's Going To Have To Give
Post by: guido911 on January 12, 2009, 12:40:06 pm
Who got waterboarded is my question?
What torture was employed at Abu Ghraib? Are you talking about panties on the head of prisoners and naked men piled up?
Title: Obama: Everybody's Going To Have To Give
Post by: Hoss on January 12, 2009, 12:43:25 pm
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
Who got waterboarded is my question?
What torture was employed at Abu Ghraib? Are you talking about panties on the head of prisoners and naked men piled up?
Does the name 'Khalid Sheikh Mohammed' ring a bell? He was waterboarded. But I'm sure you have a way to disspell that too. You have got to be kidding me, right? And as far as Abu Ghraib goes, look at some of the pictures here and tell me you wouldn't consider that some form on psych torture? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_prisoner_abuse But go ahead, tell me that it ain't, Cheney, Jr.
Title: Obama: Everybody's Going To Have To Give
Post by: we vs us on January 12, 2009, 01:38:10 pm
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
Who got waterboarded is my question?
What torture was employed at Abu Ghraib? Are you talking about panties on the head of prisoners and naked men piled up?
The gov acknowledges that at least three people were waterboarded at Guantanamo Bay: (http://"http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/02/05/spy-chief-confirms-three-waterboardings/") quote:
Gen. Michael Hayden, head of the Central Intelligence Agency, confirmed one fact in a debate not likely to end soon: “Waterboarding has been used on only three detainees,” he told members of the Senate Intelligence Committee. “It was used on Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. It was used on Abu Zubaydah. And it was used on [Abd al-Rahim al-]Nashiri.”
I say "at least" because I don't expect anyone in intelligence to release the correct number of waterboardees at Guantanamo, and the above also doesn't include the black prison sites the Bush Administration has built around the world.
Title: Obama: Everybody's Going To Have To Give
Post by: guido911 on January 12, 2009, 01:39:07 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Hoss
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
Who got waterboarded is my question?
What torture was employed at Abu Ghraib? Are you talking about panties on the head of prisoners and naked men piled up?
Does the name 'Khalid Sheikh Mohammed' ring a bell? He was waterboarded. But I'm sure you have a way to disspell that too.
Oh, the guy that planned 9/11? The guy that decapitated Daniel Pearl? The guy that gave up the Library Tower bombing plot in LA after being waterboarded? Yep! Bush should be prosecuted as a war criminal for abusing that piece of sh#t. The other two that were waterboarded were also high level al Qaeda figures. I will acknowledge that all three were both signatories and strict adherents to the Geneva Conventions. As for Abu Ghraib, why exactly is Bush responsible for those abuses? I thought those soldiers involved were criminally prosecuted.
Title: Obama: Everybody's Going To Have To Give
Post by: Hoss on January 12, 2009, 02:04:30 pm
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
quote:
Originally posted by Hoss
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
Who got waterboarded is my question?
What torture was employed at Abu Ghraib? Are you talking about panties on the head of prisoners and naked men piled up?
Does the name 'Khalid Sheikh Mohammed' ring a bell? He was waterboarded. But I'm sure you have a way to disspell that too.
Oh, the guy that planned 9/11? The guy that decapitated Daniel Pearl? The guy that gave up the Library Tower bombing plot in LA after being waterboarded? Yep! Bush should be prosecuted as a war criminal for abusing that piece of sh#t. The other two that were waterboarded were also high level al Qaeda figures. I will acknowledge that all three were both signatories and strict adherents to the Geneva Conventions.
As for Abu Ghraib, why exactly is Bush responsible for those abuses? I thought those soldiers involved were criminally prosecuted.
Hey, I just reported what happened. I ain't saying I agree or disagree, so don't put words in my mouth. But when the government says that 'we don't torture' and the proof is right there in front of you, isn't that the highest form of hypocrisy? A lie? Oh no, two wrongs always equal a right though. To hell with the Geneva Convention. http://www.hrw.org/legacy/english/docs/2004/05/24/usint8614.htm This administration can't be over quick enough for me...sheesh.
Title: Obama: Everybody's Going To Have To Give
Post by: we vs us on January 12, 2009, 02:11:36 pm
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
quote:
Originally posted by Hoss
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
Who got waterboarded is my question?
What torture was employed at Abu Ghraib? Are you talking about panties on the head of prisoners and naked men piled up?
Does the name 'Khalid Sheikh Mohammed' ring a bell? He was waterboarded. But I'm sure you have a way to disspell that too.
Oh, the guy that planned 9/11? The guy that decapitated Daniel Pearl? The guy that gave up the Library Tower bombing plot in LA after being waterboarded? Yep! Bush should be prosecuted as a war criminal for abusing that piece of sh#t. The other two that were waterboarded were also high level al Qaeda figures. I will acknowledge that all three were both signatories and strict adherents to the Geneva Conventions.
I don't care if it was Satan himself, waterboarding is torture, and torture is illegal. Full stop. And you should brush up on the Geneva Conventions a tad, Guido. The GC binds us regardless of who we're fighting against. That includes non state fighters like Al Qaeda. There is never a time when the GCs do not apply to us. They aren't optional. It kinda keeps me up at night that you're a lawyer yet seem to have no qualms about ignoring the law based on expedience.
Title: Obama: Everybody's Going To Have To Give
Post by: guido911 on January 12, 2009, 05:46:59 pm
quote:
Originally posted by we vs us
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
quote:
Originally posted by Hoss
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
Who got waterboarded is my question?
What torture was employed at Abu Ghraib? Are you talking about panties on the head of prisoners and naked men piled up?
Does the name 'Khalid Sheikh Mohammed' ring a bell? He was waterboarded. But I'm sure you have a way to disspell that too.
Oh, the guy that planned 9/11? The guy that decapitated Daniel Pearl? The guy that gave up the Library Tower bombing plot in LA after being waterboarded? Yep! Bush should be prosecuted as a war criminal for abusing that piece of sh#t. The other two that were waterboarded were also high level al Qaeda figures. I will acknowledge that all three were both signatories and strict adherents to the Geneva Conventions.
I don't care if it was Satan himself, waterboarding is torture, and torture is illegal. Full stop.
And you should brush up on the Geneva Conventions a tad, Guido. The GC binds us regardless of who we're fighting against. That includes non state fighters like Al Qaeda. There is never a time when the GCs do not apply to us. They aren't optional.
It kinda keeps me up at night that you're a lawyer yet seem to have no qualms about ignoring the law based on expedience.
Oh whatever. It kinda keeps me up at night knowing that you are an American and have no qualms about not preventing terrorists from blowing up your fellow countrymen. And as I posted on another thread in this forum, there's another lawyer out there that supports my position: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/01/22/ED5329.DTL
Title: Obama: Everybody's Going To Have To Give
Post by: guido911 on January 12, 2009, 05:51:40 pm
quote:
Originally posted by we vs us
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
quote:
Originally posted by Hoss
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
Who got waterboarded is my question?
What torture was employed at Abu Ghraib? Are you talking about panties on the head of prisoners and naked men piled up?
Does the name 'Khalid Sheikh Mohammed' ring a bell? He was waterboarded. But I'm sure you have a way to disspell that too.
Oh, the guy that planned 9/11? The guy that decapitated Daniel Pearl? The guy that gave up the Library Tower bombing plot in LA after being waterboarded? Yep! Bush should be prosecuted as a war criminal for abusing that piece of sh#t. The other two that were waterboarded were also high level al Qaeda figures. I will acknowledge that all three were both signatories and strict adherents to the Geneva Conventions.
I don't care if it was Satan himself, waterboarding is torture, and torture is illegal. Full stop.
And you should brush up on the Geneva Conventions a tad, Guido. The GC binds us regardless of who we're fighting against. That includes non state fighters like Al Qaeda. There is never a time when the GCs do not apply to us. They aren't optional.
It kinda keeps me up at night that you're a lawyer yet seem to have no qualms about ignoring the law based on expedience.
Oh whatever. It kinda keeps me up at night knowing that you are an American and have no qualms about not preventing terrorists from blowing up your fellow countrymen. And as I posted on another thread in this forum, there's another lawyer out there that supports my position: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/01/22/ED5329.DTL And by the way, I am an American way before I am an attorney. As far as not waterboarding satan, I guess you are one of those who would not waterboard the terrorist that had information that could save one in your own family's life, eh? I mean, "Sure my child got blown out of the sky by a terrorist act that could have been prevented, but I still got my principles."
Title: Obama: Everybody's Going To Have To Give
Post by: we vs us on January 14, 2009, 11:04:43 am
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
quote:
Originally posted by we vs us
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
quote:
Originally posted by Hoss
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
Who got waterboarded is my question?
What torture was employed at Abu Ghraib? Are you talking about panties on the head of prisoners and naked men piled up?
Does the name 'Khalid Sheikh Mohammed' ring a bell? He was waterboarded. But I'm sure you have a way to disspell that too.
Oh, the guy that planned 9/11? The guy that decapitated Daniel Pearl? The guy that gave up the Library Tower bombing plot in LA after being waterboarded? Yep! Bush should be prosecuted as a war criminal for abusing that piece of sh#t. The other two that were waterboarded were also high level al Qaeda figures. I will acknowledge that all three were both signatories and strict adherents to the Geneva Conventions.
I don't care if it was Satan himself, waterboarding is torture, and torture is illegal. Full stop.
And you should brush up on the Geneva Conventions a tad, Guido. The GC binds us regardless of who we're fighting against. That includes non state fighters like Al Qaeda. There is never a time when the GCs do not apply to us. They aren't optional.
It kinda keeps me up at night that you're a lawyer yet seem to have no qualms about ignoring the law based on expedience.
Oh whatever. It kinda keeps me up at night knowing that you are an American and have no qualms about not preventing terrorists from blowing up your fellow countrymen. And as I posted on another thread in this forum, there's another lawyer out there that supports my position:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/01/22/ED5329.DTL
And by the way, I am an American way before I am an attorney.
As far as not waterboarding satan, I guess you are one of those who would not waterboard the terrorist that had information that could save one in your own family's life, eh? I mean, "Sure my child got blown out of the sky by a terrorist act that could have been prevented, but I still got my principles."
Looks like it really did happen: (http://"http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/13/AR2009011303372.html?hpid=topnews") quote:
The top Bush administration official in charge of deciding whether to bring Guantanamo Bay detainees to trial has concluded that the U.S. military tortured a Saudi national who allegedly planned to participate in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, interrogating him with techniques that included sustained isolation, sleep deprivation, nudity and prolonged exposure to cold, leaving him in a "life-threatening condition."
And, quote:
Crawford, 61, said the combination of the interrogation techniques, their duration and the impact on Qahtani's health led to her conclusion. "The techniques they used were all authorized, but the manner in which they applied them was overly aggressive and too persistent. . . . You think of torture, you think of some horrendous physical act done to an individual. This was not any one particular act; this was just a combination of things that had a medical impact on him, that hurt his health. It was abusive and uncalled for. And coercive. Clearly coercive. It was that medical impact that pushed me over the edge" to call it torture, she said.
Torture has nothing to do with information gathering. A prisoner being tortured will tell his interrogators what they want to hear, not necessarily the truth. Corroborating an intelligence stream from a tortured prisoner would take even longer. There'd be an ice cube's chance in hell that the info would be actionable enough to stop the hijacking in progress, or to find the planted bomb, or to break up the cell that's just about to act. Torture has nothing to do with being an American, either. Americans believe in the rule of law, due process, and having your day in court. Our founding documents say that, and we've signed international treaties extending those concepts to theaters of war. Torture really only has to do with revenge. So, you know, if you're cool with that, then you're the guy who has to live with himself, not me. Something tells me that's why you're defending it in the first place.
Title: Obama: Everybody's Going To Have To Give
Post by: rwarn17588 on January 14, 2009, 11:38:28 am
Who would Jesus torture, guido?
Title: Obama: Everybody's Going To Have To Give
Post by: guido911 on January 14, 2009, 01:27:57 pm
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
Who would Jesus torture, guido?
Just you.
Title: Obama: Everybody's Going To Have To Give
Post by: rwarn17588 on January 14, 2009, 01:32:28 pm
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
Who would Jesus torture, guido?
Just you.
That's mature. At least it wasn't one of your previous retorts: "FU, you POS." [}:)]
Title: Obama: Everybody's Going To Have To Give
Post by: guido911 on January 14, 2009, 01:32:52 pm
WEVSUS:
So sustained isolation, sleep deprivation, and nudity is torture? Okay. I guess we better stop using harsh language as well.
Title: Obama: Everybody's Going To Have To Give
Post by: nathanm on January 14, 2009, 01:37:52 pm
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
WEVSUS:
So sustained isolation, sleep deprivation, and nudity is torture? Okay. I guess we better stop using harsh language as well.
Torture is designed to cause enough mental anguish to get a person to spill the beans. That we have moved beyond using extreme physical force to effect that goal does not make it any better. Nor does it make the information any more reliable. As an attorney, I'm sure you're aware of the many cases where police have used isolation and other psychological torture methods to make a suspect confess to a crime they did not commit.
Title: Obama: Everybody's Going To Have To Give
Post by: Hoss on January 14, 2009, 02:09:33 pm
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
Who would Jesus torture, guido?
Just you.
That's mature.
At least it wasn't one of your previous retorts: "FU, you POS."
[}:)]
Yeah, I thought that real mature, coming from an attorney. I wonder what happens when he's in a hole while making a case. Does the f-bomb come out?
Title: Obama: Everybody's Going To Have To Give
Post by: we vs us on January 14, 2009, 02:13:56 pm
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
WEVSUS:
So sustained isolation, sleep deprivation, and nudity is torture? Okay. I guess we better stop using harsh language as well.
That article I quoted was an interesting read. One of the things that Crawford concluded was that the cumulative effect of the things done to Qahtari constituted torture. By the end of his interrogation, he was physically injured and nearing heart failure, not to mention whatever mental instability there might have been. Did the nudity do that to him? Or the sexual humiliation? Or the stress positions or the verbal abuse? Not in isolation, or as separate acts, no. But as part of a sequence of similar acts, the effect was the same: torture. And consequentially, whatever evidence might have been gleaned from him, Crawford ruled, was inadmissable in any sort of legal proceeding. That's the other part that I would hope you'd see as a lawyer. Coerced testimony gets thrown out of legal proceedings. It doesn't help us prosecute the people who need to be prosecuted. Gitmo undoubtedly houses not only the innocent but the guilty as well, but how do we prosecute the baddies when their testimony is corrupted by our methods of interrogation?
Title: Obama: Everybody's Going To Have To Give
Post by: guido911 on January 14, 2009, 03:09:07 pm
quote:
Originally posted by Hoss
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
Who would Jesus torture, guido?
Just you.
That's mature.
At least it wasn't one of your previous retorts: "FU, you POS."
[}:)]
Yeah, I thought that real mature, coming from an attorney.
I wonder what happens when he's in a hole while making a case. Does the f-bomb come out?
Are you a glutton or something? Go back to the JV forum--big people are talking here.
Title: Obama: Everybody's Going To Have To Give
Post by: Hoss on January 14, 2009, 03:29:51 pm
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
quote:
Originally posted by Hoss
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
quote:
Originally posted by guido911
quote:
Originally posted by rwarn17588
Who would Jesus torture, guido?
Just you.
That's mature.
At least it wasn't one of your previous retorts: "FU, you POS."
[}:)]
Yeah, I thought that real mature, coming from an attorney.
I wonder what happens when he's in a hole while making a case. Does the f-bomb come out?
Are you a glutton or something? Go back to the JV forum--big people are talking here.
As usual for Gweed; answer a question with an ad hominem. [:D]
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