The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

We talked about who was behind these "labor dispute" banners around town a few months back and I don't remember the details.  So far, I've seen them posted outside TU, IBC bank branches, and St. Francis Hospital.

I've asked tellers at IBC when I've been in before and no one seems to know what the issue is and who is behind it.

Refresh my memory, please.

While visiting Topeca in downtown yesterday the demonstration was in full force. I couldn't figure out if they were protesting the bank or the Mayo. Either way, I can't imagine Topeca liking all that going on just outside their business.

I am all for the right to protest, but at least make your point clear instead of irritating.

Mr. Burns

Homeless paid by the carpenter's union.

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Originally posted by sgrizzle

Homeless paid by the carpenter's union.

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+1

I stopped and talked to them when they were outside TU a few times.  It is the carpenter union protesting various organizations for hiring a contractor who subbed out various aspects of the project to sub contracts who don't use union carpenters.

In the case of TU;  TU hired Flyntco who hired Bennett Steel who hired some other company to do the word framing - and that company didn't use union carpenters.  So shame on TU.

The people that were in front of TU were members of the Union and/or their immediate family members each of the times I asked (2 or 3).  They had fliers they handed out, I might have scanned one and will check.  But they explained why The University of Tulsa was a rat and so on.  However, the downtown marching group certainly can't be Union members.  At least, I assume not.

I saw them in front of another location over the weekend.  An IBC Bank maybe?

SHAME ON YOU TULSA NOW for being hosted by a web company that is a tenant in a building that had renovations done by a company that had a subcontractor find a framing company that doesn't use Union labor.  SHAME ON YOU.

Carpenter's Union "wood" make sense on IBC since they have built some branches recently.  I have a couple of accounts there, so good job for saving a few pennies.

Now, St. Francis and TU not using union carpenters, that's just scurrilous!!!

Begs the question...  were the people they had marching/chanting downtown on a union payroll?

SHAME ON THE CARPENTERS UNION.

The marchers/chanters are people they hire from the Salvation Army and the Day Center. Evidently, the union carpenters aren't losing too much work if there aren't enough of them to protest. Shame on the Union for trying to justify their positions by generating useless protests and wasting union member dollars on alcoholics and lazy people.

Yeah, they've got a beef with one particular contractor that doesn't use union workers.

I'm generally sympathetic to unions by default, but these guys are posting people in front of the downtown Crowne Plaza every day.

Keep in mind that construction at the Crowne Plaza ended six months ago.

It's getting to the point that I'm wondering why they don't, y'know, WORK and do a better and more affective job than whatever contractor they're pissy at?  I can't possibly fathom what they stand to gain by continuing to protest construction projects long ended.

If I was a union member I'd be pissed my union dues are being wasted like this.

I watched a couple of people stationed on the NE corner of 21st & Yale break camp one day.  They crossed over to the Wal-Mart Mkt. parking lot and put their stuff in a van.  Not sure if it was theirs or if someone was working a route picking up and dropping off.  Apparently, IBC doesn't allow them to park in their lot.

Yea they were there in front of the Crowne Plaza last Mayfest where we were painting the mural. I didnt ask what their beef was.

Figured they were disgruntled employees or something, and was like... if ya dont like the company, work for another one or start your own. Companies are not there to make the employees money, employees are there to make the company money. This is America, if you want money, you can start your own company or buy stocks in, partly own, companies. Plus if you can do it better and compete in a global market paying your workers more... absolutely go for it.    

What do they hope to accomplish by doing what they are doing? Do they seriously think there are enough people who really care? I dont have any stats, but I dont think there are.

I could understand the protests if these places broke a contract to use a union company in order to use a non-union one, because there would be actual monetary damages there.  There doesn't seem to be any actual harm in these cases.

As Conan said, the whole thing is a gigantic waste of money and will just cause people to take them less seriously when they run into a work situation actually worth fighting for.

quote:

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Originally posted by TheArtist

What do they hope to accomplish by doing what they are doing?

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Putting on a show for the union workers (who are in fact act work elsewhere) to justify the money they take from their members. If you'll notice they photograph and video tape events, especially when they do marches and chants.

It is getting really old.  They have been in front of Crowne Plaza, in different numbers, for a couple of years.  They are always in front of Mayo.  IBC near Mayo is a new addition.  They've also gone after Hilcrest and TU (as mentioned above).

I'm all for organizing a "Shame on the shamers" protest next to them one day.  Of course, I have a jobs and that makes it difficult to find the time.  UTW did a little story, but I'm surprised no one else has kicked them yet.  It accomplishes nothing and looks bad.  I'd be pissed if I was in the Snyder family and those fools out there every single day.

Will there be beer and lawn chairs at said Shame the Shamers rally?  I'm in.

wait.  Why don't we try to hire away their protesters form them?  (rumor has it they get $10 an hour cash)

BETTER YET!

Oh this is awesome.  Let's try to organize the paid protesters.   International Union of Hired Protesters.  Or  maybe our picket can be on behalf of the picketers Union calling them scabs for using non-union picketers.  

"No member of the picketers union would take a carpenters job!"  

"Hey hey.  Hey Ho.  Union picketers are the way to go!"

/why do i stay up until 1am thinking of crap like this?

Cannon Fodder that's brilliant...

quote:

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Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Will there be beer and lawn chairs at said Shame the Shamers rally?  I'm in.

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Perhaps.  Though, open container laws might be a problem.  Beer afterwards might be a good idea.  The main thing is to get a good chant going about rats (the folks in front of Mayo are usually chanting about "the rats").  "Rights for rats now."  "Hey hey, ho ho, rat haters are very po."  "Pay these protesters more!  Orpha's upped their prices!!!"

QT cup filled with Jack and coke then?

You seriously have my devious mind working now on some propaganda to hand out to the protesters to "organize" them.  They should demand $15 per hour, insurance, a pension.  That would be rich to see these people picket the carpenter's union.  It'd almost be worth spending a few hundred bucks to get some of these people to flip and do it.

What should the union be called?

International Brotherhood of Protestors?

Seriously, if you guys want to do this, I'm all for taking a long lunch on a day with nice weather and making a fool of myself and their "employer's" agenda.

The name should have something involving the words "shame" and/or "rat" in it.  All the signs say "shame on" something.  They are always chanting about rats.

If we could also take the socially responsible step and get some prospective employers to set up a table, or at least give us permission to hand them job applications, I think it would make it sting a little more.

At first, I thought that it wasn't my place to question their right to protest.  I still think they have the right and I totally respect it.  But the merits of this thing don't exist.  There is no law requiring the use of union labor.  There protest has gone on long enough and they have gone after too many people.  Someone needs to stand up and do something to at least highlight the absurdity.

If you're really down, PM me and we can coordinate.

What do we want?
TULSA!
When do we want it?
NOW!

Repeat.

SHAME ON BANNERS

So the protest in front of Crowne Plaza continues... er, kinda.

Twice this week I've seen people sitting in the usual protest position... though the banners were rolled up and the framework was disassembled.  You couldn't tell who you were supposed to shame or that you were even supposed to shame anything.  The guys were there at 9 and still there at noon, both times with the banner rolled up.  

Maybe the union protest is falling victim to stereotypical lazy union work?

NEW ONE!

I went by Southern Hills over lunch today and outside they were holding the familiar signed this time emblazoned with:

SHAME ON DAVID HANNIGAN.

Sheesh!  What's the deal.  Are they going to protest everyone who doesn't use their labor?  To me, they just keep advertising that most big jobs use other laborers.  The IBC bank turned out great.   Tulsa's new stadium is awesome.  What are they trying to convince me of?  That the cheaper competition does a good job.

For those that don't know, David Hannigan is the president of Green Country Interiors here in Tulsa.  They are the largest drywall and metal stud framing contractor in Oklahoma.  They have been protesting at Southern Hills, Hillcrest, Crowne Plaza, IBC, TU, and the Mayo - all Green Country Interiors projects.  They have even been protesting in front of his house.  Locally the carpenters union solely supports Midwest Drywall out of Wichita.  So when you see the local carpenters union protesting around here, it is Midwest Drywall behind it.  I know firsthand that Midwest Drywall has bid nearly all the projects mentioned above and others they are protesting as well not mentioned above that were awarded to other contractos besides Green Country Interiors(in front of St. Francis), and THEY WEREN'T FREAKING LOW BIDDER.  Get over it already.  Get better not bitter.  They have been successful ..well, er maybe not successful, but low on other projects.  Anybody drive by the Creek Casino on Riverside?  Is it open yet?  After 3 years that thing still isn't open, and everything I have heard it is because of Midwest Drywall falling on their faces and unable to perform.  So rather than protest all around town over the jobs you haven't gotten, why not go finish the ones you have?  If I was an owner, I would not want my construction manager to allow Midwest to bid because if they aren't low and I hire someone else, they are going to piss and moan and make my life miserable for months or more.

Thank you for the enlightenment. Makes a lot more sense now. (Still stupid, but at least I understand why they're being stupid)

Really?  Hmm, I knew they had a beef against Green Country Interiors, but I didn't know they had a beef against, well, nearly everyone else.  And if you're right, this proves that they haven't been harmed one whit. 

If only they used all that logistical organization and money to do actually decent work...

Interesting hearing all these average joes parroting corporate higher ups carrying their anti-union message.  You know, when I read stuff like that it makes me think that Oklahoma deserves what it gets.  To my knowledge, I've never crossed a union picket line in my life.  I'm a worker and I'm not confused about who best represents my interest.

You always poke your head in and quip this line.  Almost exactly the same each time.  But you never offer to extrapolate on it.

The out of state company in question has a reputation of poor workmanship and missing deadlines.  The solution being utilized is to hire a local company to do the work instead.  The local company doesn't use union labor.

So the union laborers protest. Arguing that the non-union labor should all be out of a job so they can work in their place.   No one is crossing a union line, no union contracts are being violated, there is no union line to be crossed (unless anywhere they decide to picket becomes a union line, which would mean unions them have the authority of telling people where they can work and when).  Explain to me the logic in your argument?

Basically you are saying:
If you work for a non-union company and a union company bids on the project, you should quit in an attempt to cripple your company in hopes that a union man takes your job.

Really, I don't get it.  If people were marching into GM to fill the line after a union walkout you might have an argument.  But it simply doesn't apply here.  Ignoring the entire discussion of some unions pricing their companies out of competitiveness in the marketplace.   Automakers, airlines, steel . . . industries with a strong union are the places that are providing all the good jobs lately - oh wait, they are the ones laying off millions of workers over the last couple of decades.  When the unions were fighting for safe working conditions and reasonable hours they enjoyed widespread support, when their focus shifted to more money the 'cause' lost momentum (hard for me to argue I should pay more for the same product so a guy in Detroit with a high school education can earn twice what I do).

I've said it a hundred times:  a union can do a ton of good for its workers.  A company can do a ton of good for its workers.  A company that is too stingy will lose the good workers to a better company or suffer from poor performance.  A union that is too forceful will beat the golden goose to death.  With or without a union labor has to be a two way street or both parties will end up failing.

/not arguing against the right of collective bargaining.  The ability to walk off the job and otherwise stand up for what you think you are worth should always be protected.  Likewise, my right to have a job and not join a union or a company's right to fire anyone who doesn't show up for work should also be protected.  Freedom is a two way street and the consequences are not also what you hoped for (says the company who then hires unskilled workers and can't produce a damn thing, or the worker who can't find a job as good as the one he had).

Stand in the middle of Manhattan and say that and then run for your hotel room and hide.  New York City, now that's a union town.  I remember my first law firm on Park Avenue (two blocks down from Tiffany's) and the first document I processed for attorneys.  It was a memo on how to bust unions.  Some client had one of the best law firms in the United States cooking up a union busting strategy for them.  These days Labor is so outgunned by management.  Cannon, I'm going to do what the big guys do and look out for my interests.  I'm 100 percent pro union.  And that's not a quip, it's a statement of my long-held belief.  Look around you and see what being anti-union has done for our lovely state.

What would you propose these owners do beyond giving union companies like Midwest Drywall a chance to bid on their projects?  Once the bids are received take them in the back room and let them have last look to lower their number?  Or better yet, pay the difference in the first place?  Call the local carpenters union.  Ask them how they know Green Country Interiors or Wiljo Interiors has substandard pay and benefits.  They have no clue.  Most of these owners are so far removed to these decisions anyway, it makes no sense to protest them.  These owners hire Flintco and Manhattan to do their projects, who in turn solicit bids from qualified drywall and framing contractors.  Green Country Interiors wins some, Wiljo Interiors wins some, and Midwest has won some.  The difference here is Midwest wants all of the jobs and is not satisfied with just an opportunity to bid.  Even the projects that are publicly bid  the unions get all bent out of shape.  It is ridiculous.  I have no problem with the other unions in town - pipe fitters, sheet metal workers, electricians, iron workers because those labor unions are not whiney little bitches.  "Shame on St. Francis (a not for profit organization) for not handing us a job".  Give me a break.  So would you refuse health care at St. Francis right now to not cross a picket line?

If there is beer, the protesters would come to our side.

See, you failed to address any of the points I raised.  Either specific to the issue at hand or in general.  An anecdote about a law firm trying to bust unions doesn't really help me understand your position.

Please explain to me what anti-union laws are in place on Oklahoma.  The most anti-union thing I know of is a law that says workers are not required to join a union.  I'm not sure why that is considered anti-union or why requiring people to join a club to get a job would be a good thing (you must pay X Union  Y% of your pay or you can't work in Oklahoma - that's pro-worker?).

Texas has low union rates, as does Virginia and Utah.  All three saw growing economies and growing wages as union states slumped significantly.  New York, New Jersey, and Michigan are the highest per capita union states in the nation.  All three have struggled economically the last couple of decades.  Look at Oklahoma as an example of what non-unions can do?  Go to Detroit and look around to see what unions can do to a lovely place. Or Bethlehem Penn.  Seeing that the correlation is hard to find, I'll go out on a limb and say that the small minority of union members in any given area isn't the driving factor in a state's economy.

I worked with a union and was privy to a memo on strategies to make companies unionize and what the boundaries for lobbying for laws and constitutional limits of laws forcing workers to join unions would be.   So what?  Workers look out for themselves.  Companies looking for themselves.  And unions looking out for themselves (don't forget, unions are companies with income, expenses, and highly paid management).   Makes sense to me.  Usually each one forgetting the roll the other one has to play for them to be successful.  

I'm 100% pro market.  If a union can adjust an irregularity in a market and bring wages in line with demand/supply then good for them.  If the company can find people willing to do the job as good for less, then good for them.  If the workers or the company press their position and the company goes under - then the hell with both of 'em.  That's my position based on experience, study, and thought.

Also, I'm sad to hear that a disagreement on unions in a union town would likely lead to violence.  You'll note the union protesters in "our lovely state" have not had to run and hide from anyone.

I'm neither anti union or pro union.  It really doesn't matter to me.  I have had good working relationships with the UAW (who overplayed their hand and cost about 60% of the union jobs over the years) in the past and the Operating Engineers here in town (a very well run union who uses skill sets to increase wages, imho).  But protesting a company because a contractor subbed out a job to another company isn't really a union issue anyway.  It's a business decision for all parties involved.  The lack of revenue is what has the union mad - not any workers rights issue or labor dispute.    Their club didn't get the work, they didn't get a cut of the revenue, and the guys that are working on the project don't deserve a job because they aren't a member of the club.

That's not a labor dispute.

Cannon, Please don't tell me how to conduct my side of a conversation. 

What is anti-union about Oklahoma?  Right-to-Work.  And Oklahoma does have a history of violence against Union Organizers.  "The burning" opens with a scene of such violence right here in Tulsa.  And Tulsa's other big untold story (other than the riot) is the Mid-Continent strike.  Where Tulsa's DA bugged the Union Office and provided the information to Mid-Continent's Management.

That was the story with union organizing all over.  Local police enforced Management's dictates and that is what led to mob involvement with unions.  The mob became union enforcers.  But you are from Ohio and probably are aware of that.

Cannon, the next time you get a vacation or use your health care benefit, please get on your knees and thank union organizers.  Attorneys are higher up the food chain than some folks but you are still workers.

The next time you want to see the power and majesty of united labor go to New York City and feast your eyes on the Center of the Civilized World -- The Rome of our Day.  Built by Unions.

Now, this is my general stance and I don't know any detail on the organization discussed here.  Of course, bids should be sealed and standard practices should be followed.

It's just very sad to me that a beat down, poverty stricken state like Oklahoma that would really benefit from unionization doesn't support unionization.  Management has been very effective in mind f****** the little people here.

Unions are so old commie.....

You realize that the Unions BOMBED OIL PIPELINES during the Mid-Con strike don't you?  There was sabotage of company property, feuding between the AFL and CIO, violence from both side, accusations of spying by both sides, and an over reaction and illegal acts by the government. I'm not pointing a finger at labor, but both sides acted a fool for sure.  I hope you realize that labor unrest in the great depression was not limited to Oklahoma - your bastion of unions in New York saw its fair share of labor unrest in the time period. 

http://digital.library.okstate.edu/encyclopedia/entries/M/MI005.html

Your basic argument is:  Oklahoma is a crappy place to live because in the great depression the state treated unions poorly and because we don't require workers to join a union.

Ignoring the acts of several government officials 75 years ago - please explain to me how requiring workers to pay a union for the privilege of working is supporting workers rights? 

You are anti union if you don't force people to join unions.  Well damn.  Oklahoma is anti-Jesus because we don't require people to be Christian to get a job.  We are anti-Boy Scouts because we don't require kids to be Boy Scouts to go to school.  We are anti gun because we do not mandate gun ownership for every citizen.  I really don't get it, it just doesn't make sense.   Feel free to continue to not-explain your position, but I'm being honest.

You keep arguing that the "little people" of Oklahoma are too stupid to figure it out on their own.  That the big bad employers have brainwashed them all while the poor little unions (generally a larger national organization than the company) can't figure out how to get their message across because Oklahomans are too stupid.  In essence, workers are too stupid in Oklahoma and should be legally required to join a union.

Way to stick up for the working man.

Per your New York/Rome comment.  You keep ignoring Detroit and Pittsburgh.  Ignoring the fact that the NYC is unique in many other ways (being the largest, among the most corrupt, most unionized, and most capitalist city in the USA) and the fact that a working man in NYC needs to make in excess of $100,000 to be considered middle class, it still doesn't show a correlation.  Salt Lake City, San Francisco, Seattle - large non-union bastions of prosperity.  Do you not get that there is a failure of correlation there or just ignoring it?  Why are the most heavily unionized industries the ones that have been failing for decades?  Why do industries with little or no unionization still have high wages (IT comes to mind rapidly)?

I'm not arguing against unions on principle.  I am showing and supporting a different perspective.  Again - unions can do tons of good.  But unions can and do destroy companies to the detriment of current and future workers.  John Deere, GM, Chrysler, Ford, American Steel, Bethlehem Steel and on and on . . . tons of long term legacy employers won't be hiring their workers sons (in my home town there were three generations that went from high school to John Deere, but when a bolt turner made $70,000 a year they let him retire and automated the job).  I don't think I'm being unreasonable when I say companies can abuse labor and labor can abuse companies... but I also don't think you will bother addressing this point no matter how many times I raise it. 

Union good.  Employers bad.   That's the end of it.  Anyone who says otherwise is stupid and brainwashed, no matter how reasoned their opinion or open their attempt to discuss it.  The union was spied on during the midcon strike but the bombings were no big deal.  Union Town New York is awesome, Detroit doesn't count.  Union jobs pay more, companies can't be driven out of business.  Companies owe their workers more, workers don't owe employers anything.  There are two sides to the story and both labor and employers have a roll to play.  Either or both being unreasonable is bad for both.

And I won't be thanking anyone for my benefits or my vacation time.  I don't have any benefits and my substantial compensation comes from productivity - thus I don't really get paid to take vacation.  I think I should walk out until I make what I "deserve," or demand clients pay me at least double my current rate.  If I protested a company for going with a different firm because I'd just get laughed at.

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And the details of the present case have been well presented.  Other bids were chosen in many, many instances.  In each instance the Union was made that the local company got the job so they protested the company that ordered the work.

They didn't claim it was a rigged bid or contracting practices weren't followed.  They are pretending a union not getting the job makes it a labor dispute. 

Personally, I will avoid even having that company bid on any of my clients projects in case they don't win the bid.  It isn't worth the risk to give them a chance if it could result in being protested simply because they aren't chosen.  Is it because I hate unions?  No, I don't hate unions.  The potential cost of being protested outweighs the benefit of reviewing their bid.

I'm happy to be corrected if any of my assumptions are wrong.  Particular as it related to the SHAME ON people because I have no special knowledge there.  I merely advocating my position and looking those with other opinions to do the same.

Somehow I don't buy your argument that you are equally divided on union or nonunion.  And anyone ever tell you you are a repressed writer.  Bet you tear up those pleadings.  San Francisco, non-union?  Oh, Cannon, you do need my help.  And you are due a little humble-izing from the big man in the clouds.  Bless your heart.

I don't think it's unreasonable to say that employees ought to look out for their own interest, which is generally aligned with unions, while management ought to look out for theirs.

And yes, some IT workers make great money. Most are toiling away for not a lot. A couple years back someone wanted to pay me 42k a year for a full time job, and I've got over 10 years experience in the field. Not very good. Better than the average Oklahoman, sure, but not at all commensurate with a decade of specialized experience.

 ;D

Yes, yes I have been told I am a repressed writer.  And yes, I do tear up pleadings and briefs.   

But honestly, I have no ill will towards unions.  They are at the core a group of people looking out for their interests.  Management is a group of people looking out for the owners interest.  Both are subject to abuse (unions by becoming big business themselves and management by looking after their own interest instead of owners).  I don't see an inherent favoritism towards either side and continue to advocate the position that either side can abuse their position.  A company is no better, or worse, for using union labor unless it comes with a benefit to the consumer (operating engineers in Tulsa have standards for their operators, apprenticeship programs, etc. so you understand you are getting a good crew).

I have no actual knowledge of San Francisco, but other than the port most of the wealth is generated from commerce, not industry.  And commerce is generally non-union (IT, banking, transactions, etc.).   On a side note, a friend has a 1300 sq. ft. 2 bedroom apartment rent controlled since the '89 quake at Franklin and Green.  While this gives me a built in hotel in the middle of San Fran, I still have to hate her a little.

And don't worry about humbling me.  I get beat down enough in the court room from time to time to know my place.  I appreciate the discussion with you, as always.  But we may have to just disagree.