The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

The Tulsa Talons are paying good money to use the BOK Center.  They are one of the first attractions to sign up for a long term contract to play at the BOK Center.  Before they signed this long term contract to play at the BOK Center, the Talons had the BOK Center's administration sign off on the BOK Center being available on all of game dates.  The league actually sets and signs off on the dates.  After receiving approval for all of these dates from the BOK Center, the Talons then had all of their materials printed with these dates, published the dates, etc...   

I heard the Talons have now received word from the BOK Administration that the BOK Center will not be available on one of its schedule game nights.  Why?   Mayor Taylor needs the BOK Center!  Why?  For her daughter's wedding! 

So, let me get this right.  We have a local sports franchise paying good money to use the BOK Center and they are getting bumped for Mayor Taylor's daughter's wedding.  Does this make sense?

Is Mayor Taylor paying for the use of the BOK Center?  Will our police force be used at such event?  Will Mayor Taylor pay for the use our police?

If true as presented, it sounds completely ludicrous and offensive.

However, why would a wedding need an 18,000 seat venue?  Why would they want one?  How would the Mayor even pretend to usurp a contract with a straight face for such blatant personal gain?  No politician is that stupid or has that large a sense of entitlement.

I'm going to need a source on this one.

[edit]

Wedding is set for  May 30, 2009.  People are instructed to stay downtown. 
http://www.elizabethchris.com/home.asp

The Tallons play May 30th, IN OKLAHOMA CITY:
Saturday, May 30    7:05 PM    @ Oklahoma City
http://tulsatalons.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=58&Itemid=87

The materials have been "printed and distributed with these dates."  All you had to do was look on the internet for 5 minutes to figure it out.   Unless they have swapped dates with Oklahoma City - in which case I owe a massive retraction, but without a source stating otherwise [see edit below, seems unlikely]:

I officially call shenanigans.  Please look information up more carefully before posting wild rumors.  Particularly with no source or disclaimer.

[edit]Here is an article from November of 2008 outlining the 2009 schedule:
http://www.oursportscentral.com/services/releases/?id=3738776

It does not list a May 30th Home date for OKC either.[/edit]

[/edit]

I enjoy that they are telling people to eat at "joemamas" and even include a link to a pizza place in pittsburg.

I kind feel bad for cyber-stalking her, but she is the daughter of a public figure and put the information on the internet, so . . .

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1801937/posts

http://www.elizabethchris.com/bonustwo.asp

Probably should have gone without the "or 3" comment in there.   ;)

(https://www.msu.edu/~mensing1/pics/SuperTroopers_coolchrism5.jpg)

I see no conflict here, so I will just mosey along.

Yeah, well I stalked as well.  There's not so much as a contact report on OSCN, Cannon. 

Nothing like a little cyber-voyeurism.

I like how the el guapo link directs you to a restaurant in Somerville, Massachusetts! How awesome is that!

Possible scenarios

A. A member of the future couple isn't too bright
B. The couple had a friend do the page, and the friend isn't very bright
B. The couple hired someone to do the page, and they're all not very bright.

I choose B....the second one!

Now, is that the first B or the second B?   The first B being the "second one" on the list.  The later being the second B.   Man, you didn't clarify that at all!   ;)

My guess is they are planning a wedding and through it up in a hurry.  The what do to page is like a bonus anyway, not exactly a priority I imagine.  I also bet we will see it corrected in the not too distant future (the internets work in mysterious ways).

Friggin' copy/paste.

Thank you once again, CF for your willingness to research the truth behind baseless smears.

I'd love to see any proof that the wedding is being held at the BOKCenter.  If it is, I'd love to hear from BOK Center General Manager John Bolton as to the particulars in an upcoming City Council committee meeting.  That information should include rental rate in relation to operations expenses so that any other willing wedding party, bar-mitzvah, Sweet Sixteen/birthday, or all around drunk fest (if thats what someone wants to do) can know how much to cough up for this special event center if we're now renting it out for such.

The BOK Center is available to rent for special events and I don't believe anyone else has to discuss their arrangements with the city council.

Don't know about the whole building, but I heard the lobby costs $10k to rent for an event.

From the BOK website, faq page, 
From the same website, under Overview, booking the center page

The ball park in OKC also has sections of the building that are available to rent for events (was at one such event).  While I have no first hand knowledge, I would be surprised if the BOK did not have similar areas of the building available for all types of events. 

Glad to hear there is availability for these kinds of events.  And it would seem the first charge that led this post was in error so no conflicts.  My only concern in asking is that everyone is on the same level of play when it comes to being able to book.  Sounds like they are.

And rather than look at the BOk Center website to figure that out, you rely on other people to do it for you after you baselessly attack the mayor?  ::)

nathanm,  some people are just lazy or are just trying to create conflict when none really exists.  Is this part of the thinking we have gotten to today, attack first then hope that the unfounded rumors and lies might be true?   I have seen that happen on this site more than once. 

It was a nice day, most of the snow melted. 

I am amazed this story is still around...I heard people were buzzing about it tonight at dinner.

Looks like there's more to the story.  And looks like it was probably true!

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20090403_11_A11_MayorK236772

The story says the league made some last minute changes as well.

No need to apologize Cannon Fooder, Nathanm and Joiei.  Just take a look at the local section of the Tulsa World today.

Funny how some people just go to a website or two and believe they have investigated the entire situation.  Hmmmm, didn't another prominent blogger have to apologize recently for being to quick to judge and then just writing nonsense without investigating the facts first.

Maybe you should be the one apologizing, Jitter.

Your original post said..."After receiving approval for all of these dates from the BOK Center, the Talons then had all of their materials printed with these dates, published the dates, etc..."   

The Tulsa World says, "Taylor's event wasn't necessarily the determining factor for the Talons' final schedule because the league also made some last-minute changes."

Did you just lie to us...or did you just go to one website or two and not investigate the entire situation?

Did I miss something? Why would they apologize? The story made it clear that schedule dates for the Talons were not yet solidified with the league. Also, they didn't feel particularly slighted and that such schedule pre-emptions were common. You on the other hand made it look like a sinister attempt by the mayor to utilize the arena for personal use while costing the taxpayers and the Talons. Now, we're out a $15,000 booking. Man up and apologize.

Isn't it funny how you didn't pipe back up until someone at the Whirled took a potshot at Taylor and her daughter?  Why weren't you defending your statement last week?  Now it looks like you have two black eyes.

This is the classic 'mountain out of a molehill'.

Making a story about the reaction to this is making Tulsa look really podunk.

If they had the money to book the center, were paying the prevailing rate, and no un-due pressure was applied to move the Talons game, I think it was a brilliant stroke for the daughter of the mayor to want to have the reception in a public Tulsa venue.

I'm starting to wonder about Christiansen.  Wasn't he the councilor complaining his contituents (he represents one of the more affluent districts) would be burdened by $2.00 per month for curb-side recycling?  I've been a long-time supporter of him, but I'm starting to get really tired of the constant bickering between certain members of the council and the mayor.

You're only NOW noticing this? I haven't been following city politics for long, but as long a I can remember it has always been a battle between Mayor and Council. And while discourse can be helpful in presenting new ideas or techniques, arguing about EVERYTHING (recycling, community gardens, streets, etc) is holding the city back...

I think Christiansen is a good guy, but he’s ambitious (which itself is not a bad thing) and I think lately he keeps trying to find some issue that will gain him some traction and help him get elected mayor.  I would not go so far as to call him a pander-monkey like Brogdon or Terrell, but sadly he’s getting there.

Jitter owes us $15,000... or, ironically, about 2c a person.

I just hope the BOK center gets a good deposit for deadbeats who move their bookings.

http://newsok.com/following-questions-arena-event-moved/article/3358522

First of all, I think most people on this board, even those I frequently disagree with, will agree that I am fair.  When I'm wrong, I admit that I am wrong.  If someone raises a good point but I still disagree, I state it as such.  In this instance, you posted a rumor with no source and no backup.  When I called it into question looking at actual dates and times, the wedding page in question, and examined what I had to work with I called it as I saw it.  At that point you failed to defend the statement or provide any explanation.

Now it comes to light that there was something to it.  So I apologize to you to the extent that it turned out not to be just a wild rumor.  I understand why you took the story and ran with it now, but it isn't the damning scandal that people so desperately want:


According to the article the Talons had the right to refuse to give up that date.  Not knowing who it was that wanted to book it, they decided to reschedule the game with the league and gave up the date.   The schedule was not SET when the event was planned, I saw nothing about planners being printed, I didn't even find a website referencing that date. I see no undo influence there and no evidence that they were "bumped" by virtue of the reception being the Mayors daughter.



So apparently the Tallons thought the trade was a good deal.  Trading a May date for one latter in the summer.  Presumably the business men are smart enough to make the decision to pass their right of first refusal on the May 30th date.

The Talons pay $15,000 to use the venue.  The wedding was to pay $15,000 to use the venue.  I think the game would probably generate more revenue for the venue overall and certainly more money for the Tallons, but it was not a skirting of the rules.  So is Mayor Taylor paying for the use of the BOK Center?  Yes, she was going to.

I can't say I fully follow the somewhat rambling article -   They didn't want to give up the date but didn't have to and did anyway.  They like to have a certain number of home games including 2 per month but decided it would be OK to give up that one and replace it with another.  They had to change the schedule at the last second but it was apparently set last November (http://"http://www.oursportscentral.com/services/releases/?id=3738776").    What influence did Bill Clinton use to get his May 2nd date for the building?  - But overall it seems to try to make much to-do about what is probably nothing.

On my Scandal-O-Meter, with a 1 being a State Legislator getting a ticket for 10 mph over the speed limit, a 5 being a homophobic  Minnesota Senator being gay, and a 10 being a Governor Selling a Senate seat . . . this is about a 3.  Enough to mention it and sniff around a bit to see if something really is up.  But unless something is found it isn't a big deal.

Show me undue influence.  Show me favoritism.  Show me who got screwed in this deal.  And I'll show you outrage.
<hr>

Also, I hope you didn't take my Shenanigans call personally.  I've been caught outraged or in early reporting mode and been wrong (incineration on ice storm cleanup among them).   All I can do is operate with the best knowledge I have available and give sources when available to convince people of the truth of my statements, to compensate for lack of a source I've taken to disclaiming rumors as such.

Mountain out of a mole hill maybe but there appears to be some merit after reading the story carefully for people to at least inquire into this if not question it outright.

Some excerpts from the Tulsa World story:

Shortly after the statement by the mayor's daughter was released (cancelling the reception), BOK Center Manager John Bolton said he had not been notified of the cancellation, adding that no contract had been signed confirming May 30 for the wedding reception.

I question why a contract for such an important event wasn't already contracted for with less than 60 days before the event and after all the announcements had been made.  What had happened if another event had wanted to contract for that date and was ready to sign?  There should have been a contract in place, seems Ms. Frame just assumed it would be made available no?

On Tuesday, Talons co-owner Paul Ross said the event (reception) prompted a scheduling change for the team.

So the event, while later stating it wasn't necessarily the determining factor, still necessitated a scheduling change - for an uncontracted for event mind you.

"Is our schedule worse than before? Yes, it worked out that way," Ross said.

Again, an uncontracted event that in some fashion helped force a scheduling change, made worse the scheduling of a guaranteed revenue generating event.  That event was lost as they will now be playing only once in May.

On Tuesday, Ross said it's not unusual for the team to lose potential game dates at its home venue, "the only thing that seemed unusual in this case was the timing" while a draft of the team's schedule was pending with the league.

Knowing how event scheduling works, I would have to questions BOKCenter GM Bolton's approach to this with regards to timing, not to mention holding a date without a contract, and I would assume without a deposit but that hasnt been mentioned.  I wonder how many other parties are required to put down a deposit to even hold a date in a venue such as this and if they cancel, that deposit is often times forfeited, particularly so close to the scheduled date.  

Would love to see a more in-depth look at the facts in this, more than were presented in this latest story.

From the comments section of the TulsaWorld...(which we all know comes from an fair, rational, level-headed and well-educated readership).

After trying to decipher this mishmash of a story, are not these the facts?

A, The Talons were offered that date before the wedding was booked.
B, They declined that specific date
C, The wedding was booked.
D, The Talons come back later looking for that date after the league changed the schedule.
E, Noticing the wedding, they start whining and a city councilor starts tossing around baseless accusations.

It is only a story because an anonymous poster wrote it here and a city councilor started talking about it involving the Mayor. If any one of us had tried to book an event there under the same situation, there would be no discussion

Wrong Michael, if any of us had tried to book the BOKCenter, we would have had to sign a contract locking in that date.

And the your facts appear to be slightly off. 

A - Talons schedule sought May 30 and presented to league as draft
B - Wedding "booked" (although no contract) for May 30 forcing Talons to reschedule and change draft
C - Talons declined to challenge reception date (presumably allowed under contract) in their final schedule
D - Talons schedule around reception, losing one May game date
E - Someone brings the question up (Not necessarily the Talons but could be)

I would call it more of a story since there appears to be more facts behind this.  Certainly far more than were originally provided with the original post.  Certianly more since there was no signed contract in place for the reception and a venue date was held on essentially a promise...don't think you or I could get away with a promise.  But if I'm wrong, let me know and I will call BOK today to "book" an event since I apparently dont have to sign anything, I might even be able to mess with the Oilers next season schedule that way.

A-Talons begin laying out tentative dates
B-Talons contact BOK Center saying they have events tentatively scheduled for two days in May
C-Talons are contacted by league who asks for further changes
D-Talons lose 1 date in May but gain 1 during the summer, when they prefer to have home games anyway
E-People freak out when they realize it's the Mayor's Daughter who was one of the tentative dates
F-Mayor's daughter moves her reception, and the city loses $15,000 income
G-Everyone loses

Grizzle,  I'll agree its a lose-lose for everyone at this point but that still doesn't answer the questions:

Why wasn't there a contract in place for this wedding reception? 
Why did a non-contracted event get to change the Talon's schedule?

Believe me, in the business world it only makes good sense that if you have an reception event that is tentatively going to shake up a pre-existing contract events schedule, you make sure that reception date is locked up by contract so you're not bitten in the donkey later and the question of favortism is brought up.

Had Ms. Frame/Taylor family had a contract in place for May 30, the Talons declined to challenge the date (allowed per their contract apparently), this would be a non-issue. 

But essentially, an un-contracted booking was allowed to influence a contracted scheduling.  Therein lies the problem and why Councilor Christiansen chose to question it.  How can an un-contracted event take precedence over a revenue generating, contracted party and their schedule?

Obviously you know less about event booking than you'd like for us all to believe.  "Buisiness world" and "events/entertainment" world are different entities.  There's a lot that happens in the event world that doesn't take into account good business sense.  It is not THAT uncommon to not have a KX signed 60 days out, unless you are talking about normally high-volume months like the holidays, or if there is a recurring event on the schedule.  I still didn't gather from the World story as you are implying that the Frame reception was the sole reason for the date change for the Talons.  It sounds as if the Talons might not have taken that date with or without the reception as the responses from the Talons owners leaves less than a firm conclusion.  I guess there just has to be something nefarious in the background for the conspiracy theorists who will take a pot-shot at Mayor Taylor at every turn.

Well aware of it for a long time, just a little ignorant on exactly how deep the animosity runs until the last couple of months.  It extends to a deeply personal level for some councilors to the detriment of their constituents.

Not to mention that a good portion of the council has been acting dumber than a bag of hammers for a long time.

There's nothing like being an idiot to ruin your credibility as a public servant and a taxpayers' watchdog.

Councilor Christiansen chose to question it because it was the Mayor. Do you think he checked on every other event on the BOK calendar? There was another event that effected the Talons schedule too, did they have a contract?

Regardless of anything else, is there a default "penalty" for booking an event and then canceling?


Also, can I book the BOK center for the evening for $15,000?

Yes

I love how no one can address the actual questions (or all of them) posed in a comment.  So let me repost:

Why wasn't there a contract in place for this wedding reception? 
Why did a non-contracted event get to change the Talon's schedule?

Grizzle - Do you know for fact Councilor Christiansen looked into this just because it was the Mayor?  His statement in the Tulsa World article reflected his desire to make sure no one citizen could change the Talons' schedule.  That could be you, me, the Mayor, someone from OKC (gasp!)  It's a legitimate question in light of the facts coming out about this.

By your's and those dissenting group's logic...anyone can call up the BOK, say they want to "book" an event sometime in the future, never sign a contract but hold the BOK to reserving that date against any other future revenue generating performer, event or conference and at the last minute, cancel without penalty.  Good argument if it wasn't lacking for sound judgement and fiscal sense.

You mention another event that interfered with the Talon's schedule...care to name it?  If you're talking about the Salvation Army's 16th annual William Booth Society Benefit Dinner, I'd like you to present proof that they don't have a contract.  And the Talon's could have challenged the benefits date according to the article unless it was perhaps already contract well in advance.  The proof of the wedding is in the article...Bolton stated as much.  If the Salvation Army doesnt have a contract for that date, they are susceptible to as much question as this is getting.

And by the way, this is the first time I've heard of people jumping on Christiansen being against the Mayor on anything.  Before he sided with her on the street's package, he was recently tapped by her to lead a committee on revamping neighborhood notice and voice in development.  Doesn't seem like someone thats out to get the Mayor to me.

I don't know the contacting policies of the BOK Center nor other similarly situated centers.   If a contract is the norm and one was not signed because of the specific party booking the BOK Center, that is an issue.  If it is not the norm at the BOK Center, I would like to know if it is the norm in the industry.   If yes, and the BOK Center does not do it, we need better contracting procedures.

But given the facts stipulated, I can not accuse the Mayor of malfeasance in this regard.  Worth questioning?  Yes.  But the possibility of a scandal does not a scandal make.


Because the Talons decided not to exercise their right of first refusal.  They passed on May 30th and May 2nd and allowed other parties to use those dates.  They profit more from dates later in the summer.  (all that is in the article).

Thank you Cannon in answering my questions.  Talons were allowed to authorize their right of first refusal under the contract terms they have with the BOK...since there were no contract terms with the Taylor/Frame party then anyone could have come in, signed a contract and taken that date from them?

The bigger question would be how were the Talons presented with the conflict?  Were they told there was a contracted party that was seeking the May 30th date and would they like to use their first right of refusal?  Or were they told a party had already contracted for May 30th and therefore didnt Talons didnt have a right to first refusal as the date had already been secured by agreement?  The same would be used for say Taylor Swift, a date is planned and if the Talons had already not finalized a schedule, they would be subject to having to work around the already contracted and secured (by compensation) date of Swift no?

This whole thing just seems pretty sad.  I feel terrible for Elizabeth Frame.  Hope Christiansen is happy - it makes me wonder if he has any daughters.

Downtownnow:

I must make it clear that I am not privy to the contract provisions of the Talons - BOK Center contract (or at least I have not reviewed them).  Likewise, I do not know the standards in the industry.  But with that disclaimer . . .

The article that has given credence to this rumor stays:


Indicating they had a right of first refusal on that date.  Meaning they could say "no, we are playing on that date.  The other event has to move.  Sorry."  It goes on to say:


Which is important for two reason:

#1) They were apparently not aware who it was that wanted the May 30th date

and

#2) They were willing to give up the May date in exchange for a later summer date because they prefer more summer games (presumably people like going to events in the AC when it is 190F outside).

SO . . .

Anyone would have taken the date from them if they chose to give it up.  You, me, anyone who wanted the venue could have requested the date from the BOK Center and they would work with the Talons to free that date up.   The Talons have (or had at the time) the right to say "NO, we already have that date set."  But they did not execute that right.

And finally, the tone of the comments from the Talons seems to indicate it was the former of your propositions.  That they were presented with the option of giving up the date in favor of a later summer date (I do not know of any carrots or sticks involved in their contract, maybe a discount for the moved date?) and decided it was in their best interest.  Again, this presents us with the possibility of a scandal in that undue influence could have been used.

Lacking evidence that this transaction was somehow out of what an ordinary person could accomplish, I see no scandal.  I sincerely do appreciate people looking into it (all public servants should be scrutinized for favoritism or any abuse of office) - but I don't think it bears fruit.   

FWIW, I voted for LaFortune.  I like Mayor Taylor personally and have had the opportunity to meet her several times.   I like her general attitude and would give her a "B-" for a performance grade but think the city hall move was unwise.  So while I am amicable towards the mayor, my defense of her here is not out of a sense of loyalty.  I was ready with my pitchfork if the allegations as presented were factual, but I don't see it that way.

In a slightly off topic to the this vs that.  I think it is pretty cool that the Talons would move a game to free up for somebody willing to pay for the Arena.  Of course they would have to replace another game at a later date.  I am assuming the Talons game produces more $$$ for the city.

It is not uncommon for a venue owner to hold a date in advance of having a signed contract.  Legally, someone else could have come in with a major concert or wedding reception, or dinner for two for $15K and the BOK Center could have told the Frame wedding party to find another venue.  Did that happen?  Not that I'm aware of.  It could well be that there was a hand-shake agreement that the BOK Center wouldn't sign a Kx with the wedding party until X-number of days prior to the event in case a larger, sales tax-producing event wanted the hall, there's no evidence to the contrary of a theory like that.

I still fail to see anything evil, nor is my corruption meter going off suggesting that some sort of policy was waived for Miss Frame because of who her mother is.

If you are really disturbed about this DTN, please call John Bolton or one of the Talons owners and ask them your questions instead of querying a bunch of people from the peanut gallery.  I have no direct knowledge of any policy of the BOK Center or the Talons, but I've been involved enough in event planning from both sides over the years, I have a good general knowledge of how this stuff works at other venues.

Because it was still over 60 days out.

Because things aren't nearly as set in stone as you seem to think they are. If I call up and say that I want to hold "foo" at the BOk center, they'll probably let me schedule the date without signing a contract until 30-60 days prior to the event. When the Talons go ask about dates, the management will say "we have events scheduled for these dates." The Talons then get to decide whether they want to preempt any of those other events. They probably try not to unless it actually matters.

If someone else comes asking for the date, the management will say "we have someone tentatively scheduled for that date," then call me up to make sure I'm for reals and try to settle the scheduling conflict amicably.

None of this is a problem. The problem in this town is the people who see conspiracies under every stone. Maybe we have a higher than usual concentration of untreated schizophrenics or something. Seriously. There was nothing to this story and there still is nothing to it.

If it's similiar to the way you book hotel convention rooms, I've had experience in that.  You tell them that you plan to book the room, they give you a date in which contracts must be signed by, and you sign them.

Simple as that.

Once again, mountain out of a molehill.  Black helicopters are not flying overhead as some would like to think.

(http://images.starcraftmazter.net/4chan/for_forums/nothing_to_see_here.jpg)

In your experience, how many days out does the signing deadline generally fall?

In the time that I applied for a convention room at a hotel (this was actually at the O Hare Hilton in Chicago) it was 30 days.  I don't know how standard that is or if it's a standard timeframe, but that's what happened with me.

In my limited experience (one of my clients rents out a sports arena on behalf of the owner) it largely depends on how busy the given venue is. Generally it's between 30 and 60 days for the specific venue I have knowledge of. Sometimes contracts are signed much earlier. Sometimes they are signed even later.

No deposit is requested or required until the contract is signed.

You got some karma out of me on that one, Nathan.  Bravo!

So apparently the wedding is this weekend at the Philbrook..drove by and had lots of huge generators all over the place out front getting ready for tomorrow...