(http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/5884/londoneyeatnight4web.jpg)
If only it were true. Think of something like the London Eye, say in a park on the East side of downtown.
I mentioned this idea in another thread and thought I would start a discussion about it. Here is what I said in that other thread....
Its that "other cool stuff Tulsa has to offer" which worries me a bit. What exactly are you referring to? As someone mentioned in one of our meetings, there still isnt a lot to do downtown afterwards. Blue Dome and the Brady Arts districts are tiny and arent exactly hoppin areas all the time. A place to eat during the evening or day in downtown may be an exciting improvement to local Tulsans, but I doubt that visiting guests, conventioners, "tourists", etc. would go ga-ga about it.
I thought the idea of a large Ferris Wheel like the London Eye, in a park on the East End was a neat idea. Have some other entertainment venues around that. A museum, childrens museum, the large "touristy" type places to shop and eat like Virgin Megastore, Planet Hollywood, game arcade, martini lounge/bowling alley with miniature golf on the roof (my idea lol), movie theater, etc.
We have, and are getting with the ballpark, the stuff to get em downtown. But we dont have what it takes to keep them there and entertained for a good part of a day or weekend.
I want to emphasize that I dont think downtown should just be a night entertainment spot, it should also have a good amount of living and family friendly living at that. But I think the next phase for making downtown alive and a destination should be the "keeping them downtown" stuff. Having a neat park with the giant Ferris Wheel, child friendly water features, food vendors, giant playground/fountain type area. Perhaps a few other rides in a nice urban, park like setting. Not a fenced in amusement park, but an enjoyable, and well designed public space that had a few rides in it, surrounded by shops, restaurants, a childrens museum, ice cream parlor.... Would be good family friendly fun. Then right behind that have some good urban living options. How great would it be to hear the refrain go out from Tulsa area kids.... Can we go downtown?! I want to go downtown! Then people go downtown and see this great area, and right nearby, see quiet places to live. Now thats the start of a winning combination imo.
One of the reasons I am bringing this up is because I believe Land Legacy and others are considering doing some sort of park in the East Village area. I know they have their own ideas. But have heard some interesting ideas from others as well, the Ferris Wheel idea is the neatest one I have heard of. For one thing its different from what other cities have, other than London and thats not bad company. We want to do something unique as an attraction and as a place for visitors and conventioneers to go visit. A comment was made that we will actually have a more difficult time competing with comparably sized cities in the convention market. I think we will get the hotel rooms and we need to do that. BUT another factor they consider is "What is there to go see and do near the convention area?" That is where we fall painfully short in competing with other cities.
It would look better on the river.....
Besides, they can't even do the ballpark right. So, a ferris wheel would just be more downtown spin.
If I had to choose between the two, the Ferris Wheel would give the city a more "fun" feel than the indian sculpture.
Yes. And Tulsan's need to be portrayed as having fun even if some of us don't attend church.
It's funny that you mention this because guess what they're thinking of doing in OKC... here's a hint: ferris wheel.
William, you got me all excited with your subject line....then told me to imagine it.
I've been imagining things like that for years. For a split second I thought you had some amazing insider info about someone doing something great and original.
Maybe someday...
Was thinking a bungie jump from the top BOK's east side and a giant target logo on the roof of "City Hall", mere inches above the palace digs.
Of course, it would never happen since very little heavy construction would be required. Perhaps a dirigible mast on top of BOK Tower and a fleet of blimps, requiring the construction of huge hangers at TUL with a brigade of uniformed chase crews. Yeah, that's the ticket.
I think we should move the golden driller downtown and then make him animatronic and make him do the robot every hour.
Well, strike that idea then... I guess just me and Blake think its a good idea.
I'm good with the ferris wheel idea too.
I didn't mean to steal your thunder or anything. Quite the opposite. I meant to point out that you're not the only one who thinks it is a good idea. OKC agrees and is considering having it the focal point of development.
Well, I think we could do it better here lol.
As for having it by the river... I thought about that, and probably up to about a year ago, I would have agreed. But after thinking about the pros and cons of each location and what it could do at this time, I think the downtown, East End location would be better. Here is how I see that...
I would still like to work on getting that "critical mass" of things to do all in one area. So many have put so much into downtown. Lets carry it on through and really make it stunning. Yes, I get frustrated as any that we so under utilize our river. Its day will come, and we can still make steady improvements along it (thanks again Mr Kaiser and QT). There is only so much that donors, and or taxpayers can spend and do. We have a tendency in Tulsa to spread stuff around so sparsely that things fall far short of their potential, the potential they would have had, were they done with a little more "clustering". IF there were some big development going in on the west side of the river, something like this would be great to see there. But, sad to say, I have a feeling we are not going to see that for a while with the economy the way it is.
There are a lot of components falling into place downtown. Entertainment venues, improved convention facilities, hotels, housing, parks, redevelopment of old buildings, some new smaller stuff, the universities trucking along, etc. Each thing we can add at this time, large and small, helps everything else. Where as this by the river, well it would not really be a part of as much. I think the synergies with all the other things that are and will be going on downtown in the next 5 or so years would make the downtown location the best spot.
I could see an amusement park or boardwalk by the river at some time. But that would be really different than what I am envisioning this as being a part of for downtown. This would, yes be something to do and there may be a couple of other things like a neat merry-go-round in the park, and some play fountains, a playground, childrens museum, movie theater, shopping etc. But this would not be an amusement park, but more like an "Eiffel Tower/Champs Elysee" type area. Something eye catching downtown, that draws you to the area. An area that is still bustling, but classy, urban and enjoyable. A beautiful park that also has some fun stuff in it and that is surrounded by shopping and entertainment, and behind that lots of living. This would not be an amusement park with roller-coasters, lots of rides, games, and a flashy lights/carnival type atmosphere. Not sure if I am describing the different feels and intents of the places right. You could still have both, they wouldn't be competing with each other, for they could be very different. But right now, the impetus is on downtown, and there are more things, "in the works" which this would compliment nicely.
That's all true as long as you don't consider Jenks as Tulsa. What you have described is indeed Jenks right now. A cluster of attractions-the Aquarium, Riverspirit Casino, Riverwalk Shopping ctr., proposed River District and the shopping on the east side of the river at 96th. Throw in the proposed low water dam sporting ferries and you've got what downtown will not see for some time... a critical mass of investment. I still consider Jenks as simply south west Tulsa. It actually would make more sense along the river there than here and we would profit as well.
BTW, are there plans to move that ferris wheel to another location in Europe or just dismantle it?
Quote from: waterboy on April 19, 2009, 03:01:58 PM
That's all true as long as you don't consider Jenks as Tulsa. What you have described is indeed Jenks right now. A cluster of attractions-the Aquarium, Riverspirit Casino, Riverwalk Shopping ctr., proposed River District and the shopping on the east side of the river at 96th. Throw in the proposed low water dam sporting ferries and you've got what downtown will not see for some time... a critical mass of investment. I still consider Jenks as simply south west Tulsa. It actually would make more sense along the river there than here and we would profit as well.
BTW, are there plans to move that ferris wheel to another location in Europe or just dismantle it?
East of the river at 96th is, of course, actually Tulsa. It just shows again how Tulsa and the burbs should try to work together. Same thing along Memorial between 101st and 111th for Tulsa and Bixby. Try to make each comlement each other rather than be competitive to the point where both sides lose. I guess if I had a magic way to make it happen I could be a wealthy developer.
Quote from: waterboy on April 19, 2009, 03:01:58 PM
That's all true as long as you don't consider Jenks as Tulsa. What you have described is indeed Jenks right now. A cluster of attractions-the Aquarium, Riverspirit Casino, Riverwalk Shopping ctr., proposed River District and the shopping on the east side of the river at 96th. Throw in the proposed low water dam sporting ferries and you've got what downtown will not see for some time... a critical mass of investment. I still consider Jenks as simply south west Tulsa. It actually would make more sense along the river there than here and we would profit as well.
BTW, are there plans to move that ferris wheel to another location in Europe or just dismantle it?
Its there for good. Kind of like the Eiffel Tower, the London Eye is meant to be a large, iconic symbol/attraction for that area of the city.
I am glad Jenks is doing what its doing, and indeed I consider whats going on there as part of Tulsa. I kind of like the idea of Downtown/an eventual river district across from downtown,,, and the stuff in Jenks/Tulsa as anchoring opposite ends of the river. I dont really think they have to be seen as competitors with each other. Both can evolve differently, have different sets of attractions, feels and audiences/demographic centers.
However, its interesting to consider, that if we ever connect the two with a frequent rail service. They will essentially then be one really great whole. People at a convention in downtown can so easily hop on a train and visit the stuff in Jenks and spend the day doing both areas and not have to have a car. Someone staying at a hotel in Jenks can go to a convention,concert or event in Downtown Tulsa. Same with living and work, etc. Tulsa and Jenks could really sell it and compete big time by being able to add each others attractions and facilities to the others list of things to see and do, # of hotel rooms available, etc. Someone in Denver pointed out how once they got their rail connecting different nodes and areas, your traditional viewpoint starts to shift. With a good rail connection,(throw in a trolley and a water taxi or two) 2 different areas essentially become one. We are very lucky to have this potential. Come to think of it, this is one way we could smoke OKC in the future.
Quote from: TheArtist on April 19, 2009, 04:30:04 PM
Its there for good. Kind of like the Eiffel Tower, the London Eye is meant to be a large, iconic symbol/attraction for that area of the city.
I am glad Jenks is doing what its doing, and indeed I consider whats going on there as part of Tulsa. I kind of like the idea of Downtown/an eventual river district across from downtown,,, and the stuff in Jenks/Tulsa as anchoring opposite ends of the river. I dont really think they have to be seen as competitors with each other. Both can evolve differently, have different sets of attractions, feels and audiences/demographic centers.
However, its interesting to consider, that if we ever connect the two with a frequent rail service. They will essentially then be one really great whole. People at a convention in downtown can so easily hop on a train and visit the stuff in Jenks and spend the day doing both areas and not have to have a car. Someone staying at a hotel in Jenks can go to a convention,concert or event in Downtown Tulsa. Same with living and work, etc. Tulsa and Jenks could really sell it and compete big time by being able to add each others attractions and facilities to the others list of things to see and do, # of hotel rooms available, etc. Someone in Denver pointed out how once they got their rail connecting different nodes and areas, your traditional viewpoint starts to shift. With a good rail connection, 2 different areas essentially become one. We are very lucky to have this potential. Come to think of it, this is one way we could smoke OKC in the future.
Jenks is just like Tulsa's River district but with actual development.
It would be a regional attraction at the very least. But remember the controversy that surfaced during the last few votes. We get this Owasso, BA, Bixby, SE contingent that isn't very happy to see inner city Tulsa and SW Tulsa/Jenks grow at their (perceived) expense. No one ever asked Brogdon why he doesn't support the low water dams, maybe because its so obvious. Seems we vacillate between a regional view and a city view pretty rapidly. Wonder what fuels those swings?
Quickly now. What stands out as the most stunning achievement of V2025?
I hate to burst your bubble, but OKC is already doing this. Grant Humphreys, an OKC developer bought the Pacific Park Ferris Wheel, which resides on the Santa Monica Pier, and intends to bring it to OKC to anchor a riverfront development. Here's an article (http://newsok.com/famed-ferris-wheel-set-for-city/article/3235280/?tm=1209182004) about it from a year ago. I am not sure what the time frame is, but I recently heard about it on the Oklahoma News Report, so it might be coming soon.
Edit: There are a couple of quasi "iconic" ideas I have for the city. I would like to see something like the Spire of Dublin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spire_of_Dublin) at 5th and Main, to replace the diminutive fountain. Something ultra modern, with some height. I would also like to see something like Prague's Petřín Lookout Tower (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pet%C5%99%C3%ADnsk%C3%A1_rozhledna) in the open space just east of the Rose Garden in Woodward Park. I don't know how the nearby neighborhoods would like it, but I think it would offer a great view over the city. Though, I must admit, neither of these ideas are going to really attract tourists. They are simply meant to add a little something to the city.
Quote from: Trogdor on April 19, 2009, 04:31:26 PM
Jenks is just like Tulsa's River district but with actual development.
Oh really? OMG... Did you know... The sky is blue. Shocking but true lol.
Quote from: waterboy on April 19, 2009, 06:09:00 PM
It would be a regional attraction at the very least. But remember the controversy that surfaced during the last few votes. We get this Owasso, BA, Bixby, SE contingent that isn't very happy to see inner city Tulsa and SW Tulsa/Jenks grow at their (perceived) expense. No one ever asked Brogdon why he doesn't support the low water dams, maybe because its so obvious. Seems we vacillate between a regional view and a city view pretty rapidly. Wonder what fuels those swings?
Quickly now. What stands out as the most stunning achievement of V2025?
The point wouldnt be for it to be an "attraction" per say, not THE reason for going, but perhaps an "attractor". The main thing is to have something that acts as an interesting, beautiful and fun, iconic centerpiece, to the area of downtown, The area would be the attraction and the "object, tower, ferris wheel, whatever" would be its iconic centerpiece. It could catch your eye from the highway for sure and attract people. Partly I am thinking about is the convention market. In order to compete we have to have things to do downtown. Not that a ferris wheel would be some, wonderful, exciting thing, but it could be a stunning visual presence within an activity area. Plus it would indeed be something to do for the families and such who live around it. People dont go to London to see the London Eye, but it is something to see and do while they are there.
I certainly would not see this as some county vote or tax. That would be absurd imo. This is something for the city of Tulsa and even then, mostly its downtown/core region.
Quote from: tshane250 on April 20, 2009, 08:23:43 AM
I hate to burst your bubble, but OKC is already doing this. Grant Humphreys, an OKC developer bought the Pacific Park Ferris Wheel, which resides on the Santa Monica Pier, and intends to bring it to OKC to anchor a riverfront development. Here's an article (http://newsok.com/famed-ferris-wheel-set-for-city/article/3235280/?tm=1209182004) about it from a year ago. I am not sure what the time frame is, but I recently heard about it on the Oklahoma News Report, so it might be coming soon.
Edit: There are a couple of quasi "iconic" ideas I have for the city. I would like to see something like the Spire of Dublin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spire_of_Dublin) at 5th and Main, to replace the diminutive fountain. Something ultra modern, with some height. I would also like to see something like Prague's Petřín Lookout Tower (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pet%C5%99%C3%ADnsk%C3%A1_rozhledna) in the open space just east of the Rose Garden in Woodward Park. I don't know how the nearby neighborhoods would like it, but I think it would offer a great view over the city. Though, I must admit, neither of these ideas are going to really attract tourists. They are simply meant to add a little something to the city.
I think your more on the track I am thinking about. I think the spire/tower idea would be a great one. Especially if OKC is doing a Ferris Wheel, but even then I dont know how large that Ferris wheel is and it does look more the "carnival" type, versus the London Eye is classy and iconic, and its size likely dwarfs the one OKC would be getting.
The trick with some sort of tower is to have it be beautiful, but not a copy of the eiffel tower. Perhaps a very contemporary design. I have seen towers in other cities like you mention,,, but they always seem to fall short and look lame or look like a lesser copy of the Eiffel tower. Plus there is something about the idea of movement that I like with the Ferris wheel idea. Perhaps a tower with a kinetic sculpture of some sort?
Here is something they recently did in Phoenix. Not as grand as I would like for Tulsa, and I certainly think we could have done something a lot better with 34million dollars lol. http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=167961
Just a note... I checked the story on the OKC ferris wheel, it is indeed a "typical, large" ferris wheel, though with a great history. Its 9 stories tall, hardly giant or iconic in scale. The London Eye is about 44 stories.
The only problem I see with something like a Ferris Wheel is the upkeep. What if it's popular at first, but then nobody goes to ride it? The city (or a private investor) wouldn't want to keep maintaining something like that indefinitely.
If it were the anchor for a successful development, that would be different. That's why the OKC one makes more sense to me (at least at this juncture). I think that for Tulsa something like this would have to be part of a bigger plan.
QuoteI think your more on the track I am thinking about. I think the spire/tower idea would be a great one. Especially if OKC is doing a Ferris Wheel, but even then I dont know how large that Ferris wheel is and it does look more the "carnival" type, versus the London Eye is classy and iconic, and its size likely dwarfs the one OKC would be getting.
The trick with some sort of tower is to have it be beautiful, but not a copy of the eiffel tower. Perhaps a very contemporary design. I have seen towers in other cities like you mention,,, but they always seem to fall short and look lame or look like a lesser copy of the Eiffel tower. Plus there is something about the idea of movement that I like with the Ferris wheel idea. Perhaps a tower with a kinetic sculpture of some sort?
Here is something they recently did in Phoenix. Not as grand as I would like for Tulsa, and I certainly think we could have done something a lot better with 34million dollars lol. http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=167961
I like your thinking. As for a size comparision, the London Eye is just shy of 443 feet high, while the Santa Monica one is 130 feet high. If and when Tulsa were to ever pursue something along these lines (whether public or private or both), I think it would definitely need to be something of significance - i.e. iconic (think Eiffel Tower, Gateway Arch, London Eye - something when seen automatically brings Tulsa to mind).
Quote from: tshane250 on April 20, 2009, 09:25:30 AM
I like your thinking. As for a size comparision, the London Eye is just shy of 443 feet high, while the Santa Monica one is 130 feet high. If and when Tulsa were to ever pursue something along these lines (whether public or private or both), I think it would definitely need to be something of significance - i.e. iconic (think Eiffel Tower, Gateway Arch, London Eye - something when seen automatically brings Tulsa to mind).
Exactly. And hopefully it be something thats beautiful, and something that can be "ridden" or interacted with in some way. Not just something to look at. Not just a static sculpture, not just a ride or experience but a combination of things.
I've always liked the idea of a science museum downtown. Something that would attract both kids and adults, similar to the old Harmon Science Center but bigger and better with an emphasis on Oklahoma-specific topics like energy and severe weather. I would put it on 2nd in between Cincinnati and Detroit fronting a future park/square on the parking lot to the south. A new central library could be built on the southside of 3rd between Cincinnati and Detroit facing the park and science museum, with the PAC along Cincinnati to the west and the Blue Dome district directly to the east of Detroit. The science museum, library, PAC, and park/square would all be attractions to downtown with places to eat and shop nearby and within walking distance of the arena, ballpark, and downtown hotels.
I also would like to see an ART DECO museum downtown. The Tulsa Club building at 5th & Cincinnati would be a good location, considering it's currently vacant...
QuoteI've always liked the idea of a science museum downtown. Something that would attract both kids and adults, similar to the old Harmon Science Center but bigger and better with an emphasis on Oklahoma-specific topics like energy and severe weather.
Ooo, I like that idea too. It would be great if a section (or the entire thing) had hands-on exhibits for the young and young at heart.
If OKC gets a ferris wheel, Tulsa needs one at least twice as big. More museums and art galleries are very welcome. Also an upscale downtown galleria mall with indoor ice skating would be cool. I miss the old Williams place that had the ice skating. I also miss the main mall but don't get me started on that one.
I just hope that most of it is funded by private entrepreneurs rather than our tax dollars.
Quote from: OpenYourEyesTulsa on April 21, 2009, 12:49:50 PM
If OKC gets a ferris wheel, Tulsa needs one at least twice as big. More museums and art galleries are very welcome. Also an upscale downtown galleria mall with indoor ice skating would be cool. I miss the old Williams place that had the ice skating. I also miss the main mall but don't get me started on that one.
I just hope that most of it is funded by private entrepreneurs rather than our tax dollars.
What about funding by both? A lead gift to get the building built by a family or company and then public money to finish and operate it.
What do you mean if? OKC got one. It is being restored in Wichita as we speak. One restoration is complete, it will be located along the Oklahoma River near downtown OKC.
Ok, so IF Tulsa were to do one, it would have to be at least twice as large and of a unique design lol.
However, on this thread and some others I have started to get comments and discussions going, a couple of similar wants continue to reemerge time after time. Childrens museum, Science museum with an energy slant, new library, deco museum. Seems there is more of a will do do something along those lines. So why detract from that? Take that desire and build on it. And any of those things can be done in a way that is architecturally intriguing resulting in something akin to what an "iconic Ferris wheel" might do. The building itself can be an attraction, something people want to see and visit, an icon, an easily recognizable symbol. There are several of examples of museums that do this.
I got it. How about a giant Indian sculpture that you could ride up by elevator inside? :P
Seriously, the cart is rolling away from the horse. I guess I'm missing the point of having a large iconic (your favorite word) interactive structure downtown. If it is not an attraction but an attractor, then what is it attracting? Conventioneers? They don't use that as criteria for locating. More likely room availability and cost, transportation and facilities. BTW, I use tomato's not tomatoes in my salsa and it attracts Mexicans. ;D
I remember some community moving a European bridge piece by piece to their desert location and finding it didn't really attract all that well. A large ship was taken out of service and converted into hotel/restaurant space on the west coast. A local community floated a submarine up the navigation channel with hopes of it being a local attraction. All merely became another little part of the fabric of the shirt, not the buttons.
Do what comes naturally to a community and do them where they fit naturally and good things happen. Force an iconic ferris wheel downtown and bad things will happen. OKC putting a classic ferris wheel along their river near downtown makes sense for their expanded Bricktown development. Not iconic, just OKC.
Not meaning to rag on you, I just can't figure what you're aiming at here.
Quote from: okcpulse on April 22, 2009, 11:15:05 PM
What do you mean if? OKC got one. It is being restored in Wichita as we speak. One restoration is complete, it will be located along the Oklahoma River near downtown OKC.
No, an Oklahoma City developer owns one and he says he intends to install it as part of a massive riverfront development that has not even begun and therefore is highly unlikely to happen for several years, if ever.
A lot can happen in this economy, so no, Oklahoma City doesn't "have" one.
Waterboy, you nailed my sentiments exactly.
These ideas of 'attractors' are not formulaic. You can't force them. You can do things to lead them in the right direction, to get ideas started, but you're right--you simply can't put something interesting there and expect an "if you build it they will come" situation. People look for a diverse group of things when they choose a venue for a convention or the like. The whole package. It's an organic growth kind of thing.
Personally (and trust me, I like the idea of a Ferris wheel or something) I would much rather see a really good quality museum go downtown. Art, science, history...whatever it is. We can talk about how much better downtown is doing with regard to the arena and eateries and bars and everything, but there's room for so much more. More things to do.
Quote from: waterboy on April 23, 2009, 07:26:41 AM
I got it. How about a giant Indian sculpture that you could ride up by elevator inside? :P
Seriously, the cart is rolling away from the horse. I guess I'm missing the point of having a large iconic (your favorite word) interactive structure downtown. If it is not an attraction but an attractor, then what is it attracting? Conventioneers? They don't use that as criteria for locating. More likely room availability and cost, transportation and facilities. BTW, I use tomato's not tomatoes in my salsa and it attracts Mexicans. ;D
I remember some community moving a European bridge piece by piece to their desert location and finding it didn't really attract all that well. A large ship was taken out of service and converted into hotel/restaurant space on the west coast. A local community floated a submarine up the navigation channel with hopes of it being a local attraction. All merely became another little part of the fabric of the shirt, not the buttons.
Do what comes naturally to a community and do them where they fit naturally and good things happen. Force an iconic ferris wheel downtown and bad things will happen. OKC putting a classic ferris wheel along their river near downtown makes sense for their expanded Bricktown development. Not iconic, just OKC.
Not meaning to rag on you, I just can't figure what you're aiming at here.
What I am aiming at is getting peoples ideas, like yours. I like having tangible goals to shoot for. Of course there are always the basic, bread and butter issues to tackle, but its also nice to throw a little tasty treat into the mix to get people excited and wet ones appetite.
Sorry about the, its not an attraction but an attractor comment. Let me take that back a bit lol. I think I, and others, sense we are missing certain components in our downtown. Course we KNOW there are lots of things missing actually and we often talk about those basics and we are moving along with them and should continue to push for more, hotel rooms etc.
But when I look at whats happening and the picture thats unfolding... well take those conventioneers for instance. Its not just about having a great convention space, arena, transportation, hotels, and restaurants. They DO also factor in "What is there to do in this or that city?" And believe it or not, having something thats a "first thing that pops into your mind that you see when you visualize a city" can be a selling point, or not, as well. Its fine and dandy to have a great little "bricktown" or club/restaurant/shopping area, but you know really thats a basic given that any decently competitive place will have. So what would make us stand out from the crowd, be noticeable and unique that we could throw into the mix?
And thats just one component. The other thing that brought this whole thread up was that there is a push to do a park in the East End. So I am thinking, What would be neat to put in there? Something that would be enjoyable to families and kids perhaps, but that could also be that neat extra thing for visitors, and that sets us apart. Buildings, museums, structures, artwork can act as visual "icons" which leap out in peoples minds. You mention the city or place and pow, you see this or that structure. You see an image of that structure, you immediately know what city is and often think, yea, I would like to go see that. That kind of thing would imo, indeed help our city with attracting conventioneers, tourists, people in general, to our downtown.
Yes of course we have to have the basics, the horse. I do not want to "force a ferris wheel downtown". I floated the idea to get a discussion going. My general feeling after most of the comments on here. May be a neat idea, but there are other ideas that could be just the ticket and that the community as you point out, seems to have a definite desire for. A kids museum, or science museum (something that has both) a deco museum, etc. So of course, if there is more of a desire to have something along those lines, by all means lets go for it. And my slant on any such project would be, lets make it something "iconic" fun and interesting as well. Something that sets us apart and when you mention Tulsa its one of the first things that immediately comes to mind. Something that is not just a museum for instance, but is also an "identity builder" a positive thing that people immediately visualize when they think of downtown Tulsa. Why not?
Quote from: mjchamplin on April 23, 2009, 09:05:17 AM
Waterboy, you nailed my sentiments exactly.
These ideas of 'attractors' are not formulaic. You can't force them. You can do things to lead them in the right direction, to get ideas started, but you're right--you simply can't put something interesting there and expect an "if you build it they will come" situation. People look for a diverse group of things when they choose a venue for a convention or the like. The whole package. It's an organic growth kind of thing.
Personally (and trust me, I like the idea of a Ferris wheel or something) I would much rather see a really good quality museum go downtown. Art, science, history...whatever it is. We can talk about how much better downtown is doing with regard to the arena and eateries and bars and everything, but there's room for so much more. More things to do.
Well said.
And as you stated Artist, I think family-friendly can only help here. Wide-appeal, that's what makes these iconic things work. I was in the St. louis arch about a month ago. We shared an elevator on the way up with a dad with two kids, and an elevator down with an elderly couple. Appealing to a wide audience with this sort of thing is paramount.
Of course, having said that, who doesn't love a Ferris Wheel? ;)
Quote from: mjchamplin on April 23, 2009, 09:51:01 AM
Of course, having said that, who doesn't love a Ferris Wheel? ;)
Me. ;D
I understand Artist. Something needs to distinguish us. OKC has the Murrah. I had hoped the BOK Arena might be our signiture. It will happen and very naturally when the ideas start to flow for the East end.
East End -
Here we go.
1. Park: Green rolling hills with mature trees, landscaping, picnic areas, playgrounds, Frisbee golf course (or at least a place for some football, baseball field, climbing wall, azalea garden type place where people would want to get married, outdoor theater for Shakespeare in the park type events, outdoor concerts, and picnic in the park movie showings, and of course...a couple fountains.
2. 365 days a year carnival: walk up Ferris Wheel, Carousel, Sky Ride, Roller Coaster, Fun House, street vendors integrated into the park. This would be a fun, moving, and really unique element which would provide some compelling attractions to our citizens and to visitors...and as for their geography within the neighborhood, they should be situated in such a way to help bridge the park to...
3. Retail: Think Tattered Cover Bookstore, Crate and Barrell, NikeTown, Puma Store, Coach, Billabong, Izod, Adidas store, Trader Joe's grocery, Einstein Bros Bagel and Coffee, etc. What I'm suggesting is this - attractive notable retail that people from all over the metro area would be compelled to visit and that is recognizable to convention visitors. Mix the chains with unique local boutiques and restaurants (including a restaurant/bar/movie theater) and you have Tulsa's absolute best shopping experience - Store to store, pedestrian style shopping on stone walkways with outdoor sidewalk dining, a nearby park and carnival with Tulsa's beautiful skyline backdrop. Woodland Hills Mall? No thanks. Utica Square? Hoity Toity. Promenade Mall? Yeah, no.
4. Residential: Put residential units above much of the afore-mentioned retail in true mixed use construction with additional condos or row-homes butting up against the highway.
5. Museums and Interactive Experiences: Childrens' museum - cool. Interactive music experience highlighting Tulsa's unique music heritage and providing Tulsans with a fun, interactive, always changing celebration of music - really cool. Add to that a place for summer music camps, for students from local elementary, middle, and high schools to perform, and a music store selling local music...really really cool and a big part of reinforcing Tulsa's growing identity as a music/entertainment city....and a big reason for people to visit downtown.
6. Integrated Parking Garages: This one is important. Parking garages that are wrapped in retail, underground, or otherwise integrated into the other elements mentioned would serve to preserve as much of the precious land in the area as possible and would serve as a profound example to the surface parking loving citizenry of what happens when you solve the issue of parking with creativity and purpose. We don't have to have a big ugly parking garage. We can put parking under things, on top of things etc, but the goal should be to create an environment where cars are rarely if ever seen.
Lastly, my hope for this unique and appealing part of downtown would be that it would serve as the large hub of continued retail development that would head west down 5th street all the way to Denver and as east through the Pearl District up 6th street. The entire north side of 6th street from the highway all the way to Peoria is prime...except the VFW, right? Leave that. Let's not forget to head north down Elgin all the way to the ballpark. The East End, or whatever you want to call it, is the most critical piece in the downtown development puzzle. It is our opportunity to create a place that has all day appeal to all kinds of people. It's not night-life oriented. It's not car oriented, it's not geared towards young professionals or empty nesters. It's not dependent on an event center like a ballpark or arena. It's got way more moving parts than that and it works because it's easy to get to (the BA dumps you right there), appealing to live in (can you imagine a cooler place to live?), and a unique treat to visit (suburbanites and our rural neighbors would love some Nike store, carnival rides, etc). You put downtown's trolley/bus transit hub there and people can easily head north to blue dome and brady or west to the civic center and arena or south to TCC and church and 18th and Boston.
And this next part is not my idea at all. I'll give credit for it when I know the fake online name of the guy from whom I heard it... You know that big ugly brown graham cracker looking building across Elgin from the East End? Mark the whole area by projecting images up on to that building. You get rid of the ugly and you create a large, moving, ever-changing work of art towering over the east end. Maybe put big white screens that cover the whole side of each side of the building and fill them with moving images, announcements of festivals, etc.... Cool idea if you ask me.
Yeah, so it can be really cool down there. It's bomb, in fact. Somebody start a thread about what to do with Rt. 66 and I'll give you another one of these crazy dreams.
When you can't say it well enough yourself, consult Henry David Thoreau.
If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them.
Henry David Thoreau
Sounds fantastic Blake. I like how there are a lot of different family friendly things to do, and things for visitors/conventioneers of all ages to enjoy. I like that its a very holistic package containing the park, retail, things to see and do, restaurant, plenty of living, etc. Its an Urban Neighborhood that would both be bustling and alive, yet comfortable to live in and near and is very pedestrian friendly.
Though its likely none of us has the money to build this lol, it can be the start of a zoning plan for that part of town which would guide and ensure things arent built in the area which would make it difficult for anything like this to ever happen, (a wal-mart where the park would be) and change our current zoning that can require things which make such an idea difficult or impossible to build (unless some huge developer could come in and do it all at once). Its likely that it would be small developers one at a time and some medium sized developments as well, all adding together. So having zoning that guides each piece into place and helps assure each small developer that the next piece will add to their own and stick to the desired end result,,, I think would be a great idea. How great would it be to be a small developer in that area, take a chance and be one of the first to build something with retail on the first floor up to the sidewalk, with living above,,, and know that on this street to either side of you the next person will build something similar to become the pedestrian friendly retail corridor across from the park. And NOT have to worry that the guy next to you will come in and build something with a blank wall and parking in front for instance. When people cooperate towards a greater whole, they can all benefit more. There is already zoning there telling people what they can and cant do, just shift its nature to encourage a different, agreed upon outcome.
Quote from: JoeMommaBlake on April 24, 2009, 05:32:50 AM
...outdoor theater for Shakespeare in the park type events...
I hadn't ever thought about this before, but it's a wonderful idea. An update to what we have on the West Bank -- I remember going and seeing the Philharmonic play there when I was little. A public performance space would be awesome for local theater, festivals, etc.
Quote from: JoeMommaBlake on April 24, 2009, 05:32:50 AM
Retail: Think Tattered Cover Bookstore, Crate and Barrell, NikeTown, Puma Store, Coach, Billabong, Izod, Adidas store, Trader Joe's grocery, Einstein Bros Bagel and Coffee, etc.
Nice mixed retail, I like it. And I always end up in areas like this when I travel, because I enjoy a lot of those types of stores. And they always serve as anchors for other development.
Quote from: JoeMommaBlake on April 24, 2009, 05:32:50 AM
4. Residential: Put residential units above much of the afore-mentioned retail in true mixed use construction with additional condos or row-homes butting up against the highway.
Awesome. I immediately think of Mockingbird Station in Dallas...though maybe something a little less cramped. http://www.mockingbirdstation.com/
Clearly the East End has a lot of possibilities. I like all of your ideas, and I think a lot of people (even suburbanites, if a lot of it was private development) would like them too.
Obviously it takes developers with money to make things like this happen, but with regard to the zoning, what are the chances of getting them changed? I know that's a major goal of Planit Tulsa, so should we see those changes coming down the pipe?
Quote from: mjchamplin on April 24, 2009, 09:06:07 AM
I hadn't ever thought about this before, but it's a wonderful idea. An update to what we have on the West Bank -- I remember going and seeing the Philharmonic play there when I was little. A public performance space would be awesome for local theater, festivals, etc.
Nice mixed retail, I like it. And I always end up in areas like this when I travel, because I enjoy a lot of those types of stores. And they always serve as anchors for other development.
Awesome. I immediately think of Mockingbird Station in Dallas...though maybe something a little less cramped. http://www.mockingbirdstation.com/
Clearly the East End has a lot of possibilities. I like all of your ideas, and I think a lot of people (even suburbanites, if a lot of it was private development) would like them too.
Obviously it takes developers with money to make things like this happen, but with regard to the zoning, what are the chances of getting them changed? I know that's a major goal of Planit Tulsa, so should we see those changes coming down the pipe?
Remember, once we pick a "plan", its then up to each area of town to get together and get the zoning changed. Once the comprehensive plan is adopted, nothing really changes....until the people in each area change the zoning to go with the new plan. Thats the next phase, thats going to be the next challenge. It will theoretically be easier to get the zoning changed to be more like what the comprehensive plan suggests, but if a land owner or group of people in an area dont want the change, they can still block it. Once the new comprehensive plan is adopted,,, the whole city or large areas of it dont suddenly have new zoning. Like the Pearl District, each area will have to push for the zoning to be changed in their area, if they want it. And they can also create more detailed descriptors and guidelines for their area in accordance with the more general zoning of the comprehensive plan.
The new comprehensive plan gives us a thought out, over all guidance, and some weight because it was chosen by the people. But it could easily get put on a shelf and gather dust. You can say,,, well this area needs to be changed to be zoned like this because thats what the comprehensive plan indends, But you the citizen, neighborhood, area, etc still have to get it changed. And, you have to get into more specifics like,,, park here, mixed use here, pedestrian friendly or not. Saying an area is to be high or medium density housing and mixed use in such and such an area, for instance,,,, well you can visualize one thing, and get quite another. Mixed use area can mean housing over here, shopping there, NOT housing over shopping. High density doesnt have to include parking garages or pedestrian friendly sidewalks. It can, but doesnt have to. It could be big towers surrounded by surface parking. You have to get down to the nitty gritty for your area and decide what you want and how to zone for it.
Love the ideas for the Blue Dome/East End. I still think the parking lot to the east of the PAC would make a good park and serve as a buffer between the business district and Blue Dome, and an attraction in itself if it had a unique feature and sculpture garden with the PAC to the west, new science museum to the north on 2nd, new central library to the south on 3rd, and Blue Dome to the east. I think focusing on making Elgin the 'main street' for retail through east downtown is a good idea, along with 6th (for connections to the Pearl) and also 3rd as it serves as the main connection from the arena. 1st and 2nd have potential to be the main streets for restaurants and nightlife in between Detroit and Greenwood.
Quote from: SXSW on April 24, 2009, 10:03:17 AM
Love the ideas for the Blue Dome/East End. I still think the parking lot to the east of the PAC would make a good park and serve as a buffer between the business district and Blue Dome, and an attraction in itself if it had a unique feature and sculpture garden with the PAC to the west, new science museum to the north on 2nd, new central library to the south on 3rd, and Blue Dome to the east. I think focusing on making Elgin the 'main street' for retail through east downtown is a good idea, along with 6th (for connections to the Pearl) and also 3rd as it serves as the main connection from the arena. 1st and 2nd have potential to be the main streets for restaurants and nightlife in between Detroit and Greenwood.
See those are the kinds of ideas I like to hear. I like having certain streets be encouraged to be pedestrian friendly "retail corridors" and such. Denver has a downtown and surrounding areas plan that zones like that.
If your a developer that wants to build big-box/car oreinted developments you know what streets you can do that on. If you want to build pedestrian friendly developments, you know the streets where thats going to continue to happen and further support your development. Doesnt stop different types of developments, actually helps the different types support each other. Until fairly recently so much has been in flux in our downtown and one couldnt really tell what area was going to become what. Now that things are starting to fill in, you can begin to see the outlines. Lots of cities have "ok" downtowns and areas. With some extra care we could create something incredible. Even OKC is trying to change things now and realizing they have to make some changes to their zoning code downtown to encourage good pedestrian friendly design in certain areas because some things have happened that they wish hadnt. Leaving it up to chance can get ya screwed or with a so so area versus a fantastic one.