Over the last couple of years as I have started paying attention to what makes some cities or small towns thrive more than others...Best places to live, best places to be single and dating, high wages, high quality of life, fastest growing, most best jobs, etc. etc. There are often several factors that you see over and over. One of them is that a town or city is a College Town.
Cue Stillwater... You know, the place where they keep expanding OSU, and not expanding OSU Tulsa lol. I was talking with someone the other day who lives part time in Stillwater and another state. They mentioned how dead Stillwater was, how its little "main street" is so lackluster. She told me that if she and her family were to move full time to Oklahoma, she would choose Tulsa over Stillwater. She has lived in college towns before, and loved them. But Stillwater was not at all a place where she would choose to live full time. I have heard a lot of people who have been to Stillwater say they would have no desire what so ever, to live there... yet college towns are often great, attractive, places to live, have good economies, lots of start ups and new innovative companies, etc.
On the one hand I would love for Stillwater to be a vibrant "third city"/college town in Oklahoma. The more attractive, thriving cities we have the better. But Stillwater doesnt seem to be living up to any college town potential. Yet we as taxpayers, and the large donors, keep funneling huge sums into OSU Stillwater. Hundreds of millions of dollars in the last decade or so. I cant help but think of how much more potential that money would have to Oklahomas over all economy if it had gone to grow OSU Tulsa. The synergies seem to be so much better in that situation.
Will Stillwater/OSU ever be the vibrant, attractive, economic driver that other college towns are?
Or, should we seriously consider shifting more attention to OSU Tulsa?
I just saw in the paper the other day, another local wealthy Tulsan was donating millions to OSU in Stillwater. They can donate to whatever college they want of course. But might they be encouraged to have that donation go to things in OSU Tulsa? We desperately need it here and could put it to great use. Better use I would say with more benefits to more people and the state. Or do we continue funneling more to Stillwater where it seems to be not living up to its potential. Or is it just a matter of OSU not being that large a university and it needs to be much larger in order for Stillwater to be one of those "best small towns or best places to live" and therefore we need to keep funneling the largest amounts of new money to it? My bias is otherwise.
Quote from: TheArtist on April 21, 2009, 05:28:45 PM
I just saw in the paper the other day, another local wealthy Tulsan was donating millions to OSU in Stillwater. They can donate to whatever college they want of course. But might they be encouraged to have that donation go to things in OSU Tulsa? We desperately need it here and could put it to great use. Better use I would say with more benefits to more people and the state. Or do we continue funneling more to Stillwater where it seems to be not living up to its potential. Or is it just a matter of OSU not being that large a university and it needs to be much larger in order for Stillwater to be one of those "best small towns or best places to live" and therefore we need to keep funneling the largest amounts of new money to it? My bias is otherwise.
UA Fayetteville has a smaller, although close, enrollment. Take that to mean whatever you like.
I loved my nearly 5 years in Stillwater....however, I grew up in a small town near OKC with a population of 1200, so Stillwater was like a metropolis to me when I moved there after high school. But, most people I met at OSU from bigger cities expressed the same views you spoke of, that they hated it there and couldn't wait to get out and wouldn't be back. Stillwater is definitely growing though....ever since I moved here to Tulsa in early 2006, there have been a ton of new businesses spring up there. Every time I go back to visit, I see something that wasn't there before. They are supposed to be getting a Target soon, which believe me, is very exciting for the students. lol. Anyway, for me, it was a good transition from small town to a more urban life, and I really feel like Stillwater has a nice charm even if other people don't agree.
But, onto your other point, I definitely agree that more funding needs to go to OSU-Tulsa. I think it would have been nice to see the wealthy Tulsan direct his fund to his hometown campus, seeing as how OSU-Stilly already gets tons of money from other sources and like you said, it could be used in a big way here...maybe donors are more likely to give to the Stillwater campus because that's actually where they went to school and feel an emotional connection to it. I really don't know. Just my two cents. :)
Hmmm, I got my undergrad at OSU Stillwater. It's definitely a college town when compared to another city of it's size WITHOUT a university (say, Muskogee for instance). There is a lot more diversity, there are cultural advantages to having a university i.e., plays, concerts, libraries, etc., and while the downtown is lackluster, it's hardly what I would call completely DEAD. I don't think it's really any worse than Norman's. Now, you also have to realize OSU is a school that appeals to a certain demographic (don't be offended, I can say this, I went there)and a large portion of it's students are from very small towns, which tend to be a bit more redneck and cares less about the cosmopolitan benefits of being in a university town. Most people I knew there loved it there and would still live there if they could. Not me.
I've always had a problem with the idea of trying to "move" or switch the focus of OSU to Tulsa. I think that the focus should stay in Stillwater. I certainly don't think a University's growth or development should be used as a tool to help create a vibrant Tulsa - I mean, yes, it would be great if OSU TULSA would develop more on it's own, and I think it is slowly but surely - keep in mind that OSU Stillwater is well over 100 years old, and has grown tons since my years there in the late 1990's.
As far as a comparison to U of A - Stillwater is an hour from OKC and an hour from Tulsa. It's easier for people to jump in the car and run to one of the larger cities on the weekend, whereas Fayetteville needs to be a bit more independent - it's more of a geographic center. Just my two cents.
And i agree with Kylie - if I were donating, I'd be donating to the school of architecture or to some portion of the school that meant a lot to me when i was there. OSU Tulsa really doesn't create nostalgic feelings for people yet.
Everybody goes home for the summer and on the weekends. That is why it is dead.
Quote from: nathanm on April 21, 2009, 08:00:43 PM
UA Fayetteville has a smaller, although close, enrollment. Take that to mean whatever you like.
Well Dixon Street and Fayettevilles downtown beats the heck out of what there is in Stillwater. However, Fayetteville has twice the population and easily pulls from Springdale and Rogers to boot.
Epodunks ranking of Small College Towns 20,000 up to 99,900pop http://www.epodunk.com/top10/colleges/index.html
1 Charlottesville, VA
2 Bozeman, MT
3 Hays, KS
4 Boulder, CO
5 Missoula, MT
6 Manhattan, KS
7 Burlington, VT
8 Bismarck, ND
9 Iowa City, IA
10 Chapel Hill, NC
Quote from: tulsa1603 on April 21, 2009, 08:56:59 PM
I've always had a problem with the idea of trying to "move" or switch the focus of OSU to Tulsa. I think that the focus should stay in Stillwater. I certainly don't think a University's growth or development should be used as a tool to help create a vibrant Tulsa - I mean, yes, it would be great if OSU TULSA would develop more on it's own, and I think it is slowly but surely - keep in mind that OSU Stillwater is well over 100 years old, and has grown tons since my years there in the late 1990's.
I agree with keeping the OSU focus in Stillwater. That is why I think they should make OSU-Tulsa an independent university with its own colors, programs, etc. independent of those in Stillwater, similar to UW-Milwaukee, UT-El Paso, etc. The school can still be controlled by the OSU Board of Regents and have close ties to Stillwater but it shouldn't just be a neglected satellite campus like it is now. I think even renaming it something like Tulsa State University or similar would better differentiate it. OU's Tulsa campus has carved a niche with its graduate health, community medicine, and education programs and hopefully will continue to expand those programs. OSU-Tulsa (or 'Tulsa State') can fill the niche of providing students a public 4 year undergraduate education in downtown Tulsa as well as graduate programs in business, engineering, and technology. I think as long as OSU-Tulsa is a satellite of the Stillwater campus it will never fulfill its potential. The question now is, will OSU let go of its stranglehold on the Tulsa campus?
And Fayetteville is a great college town and is only a little less than 2 hours from Tulsa. A lot of UA grads (and Razorbacks fans) live in Tulsa. Beautiful mountain scenery all around.
As a person who absolutely loves college towns and the college town way of life, I usually end up bored and leaving earlier than I had planned when I visit Stillwater.
The campus is beautiful but Stillwater doesn't have the many things that make college town life awesome. If I lived there I'd have to go to Tulsa/OKC all the time just for basic shopping needs like clothing. Good college towns have most of the good parts of urban life without most of the drawbacks of urbanity.
The student body at OSU is not racially diverse at all. That's one of the great things about college: meeting people who are different than you. I'm not sure there is a cool republican college town anywhere. College towns can be great because they're so different from the surrounding rural areas.
Stillwater just seems too much like the small towns surrounding it to be a great college town.
When I need a college town fix, I go to Fayetteville. Pretty much everything's better there. It doesn't hurt that it costs basically half as much to attend a football/men's basketball game at Arkansas as it does at OSU.
Quote from: TheArtist on April 21, 2009, 09:10:39 PM
Well Dixon Street and Fayettevilles downtown beats the heck out of what there is in Stillwater. However, Fayetteville has twice the population and easily pulls from Springdale and Rogers to boot.
It does now, but the population difference was less than 5000 in 1990. In 1980, Fayetteville's population was significantly less than Stillwater's.
It's easy to forget that 30 years ago NW Arkansas was tiny. Benton and Washington County's combined population was less than that of the city of Fort Smith alone until sometime in the mid 90s.
When my wife and I moved here from the PNW two years ago we checked out a lot of the surrounding areas and college towns. I loved Fayetteville, Austin, and especially Lawerence. Those were really neat college towns but Norman was medicore at best and Stillwater was horrible. I would hate to go there. I look at OSU Tulsa and I think this could be a great urban college experience. You could walk right into the downtown and wouldnt need a car. The possibilities are endless if the downtown takes off. I really have to wonder is OSU Tulsa will be held back out of fear that it will take away from Stillwater. There is no doubt where I would choose to spend my 4 to 5 years.
Quote from: TheTed on April 21, 2009, 11:59:16 PM
The student body at OSU is not racially diverse at all. That's one of the great things about college: meeting people who are different than you.
I don't agree with that at all. I met plenty of people with different backgrounds when I was at OSU, many of whom have become lifelong friends.
QuoteI look at OSU Tulsa and I think this could be a great urban college experience. You could walk right into the downtown and wouldnt need a car. The possibilities are endless if the downtown takes off. I really have to wonder is OSU Tulsa will be held back out of fear that it will take away from Stillwater. There is no doubt where I would choose to spend my 4 to 5 years.
I completely agree. I went to graduate school at IUPUI, which is located in downtown Indianapolis, because I wanted to be in an urban environment. IUPUI is incredibly successful and its success doesn't take away from IU Bloomington or Purdue.
With regard to OSU-Tulsa it's also important to remember that it's technically a part of OSU-Stillwater. When you get a degree in Tulsa, it's the same degree as Stillwater and it still says that on the diploma. So a donation to OSU as a whole could technically be spent in Tulsa (at least that's my understanding.) A couple of weeks ago we had Gary Trennepohl (president of OSU-Tulsa) speak to our leadership class. We were able to ask him questions afterward. The most interesting obstacle that OSU-T is facing is that because of state legislation, there are a number of degree programs that the campus can't offer and Langston can. So some of the popular degree programs (accounting was the one that I remember) can't be offered. If you want that degree from OSU you have to go to Stillwater. He said they're working to get that changed.
He's about to retire, but said he hopes his replacement will be active in moving the campus forward. A lot of this has to do with negotiating with city and state officials, and I don't envy him there...
At any rate, I can speak for myself and many students at OSU-Tulsa in saying that it's a really good school. People in general seem to be excited by the prospect of expansion and really getting the campus tied to the urban fabric of downtown. Enrollment keeps going up, every semester, and in the end that's what matters. More students means more money, more buildings, more services.
Quote from: TheArtist on April 21, 2009, 09:10:39 PM
Well Dixon Street and Fayettevilles downtown beats the heck out of what there is in Stillwater. However, Fayetteville has twice the population and easily pulls from Springdale and Rogers to boot.
Epodunks ranking of Small College Towns 20,000 up to 99,900pop http://www.epodunk.com/top10/colleges/index.html
1 Charlottesville, VA
2 Bozeman, MT
3 Hays, KS
4 Boulder, CO
5 Missoula, MT
6 Manhattan, KS
7 Burlington, VT
8 Bismarck, ND
9 Iowa City, IA
10 Chapel Hill, NC
Hays Kansas?????? You have got to be kidding me. My daughter went to a Catholic prep school in Hays her freshman year (so she would live to see her sophomore year) and there is no way Hays is better than even Stillwater..
Quote from: bokworker on April 22, 2009, 09:24:19 AM
Hays Kansas?????? You have got to be kidding me. My daughter went to a Catholic prep school in Hays her freshman year (so she would live to see her sophomore year) and there is no way Hays is better than even Stillwater..
I was going to say the same thing. I stayed in Hays KS over night (not really telling) but I can't see how it would fare better over Boulder or Manhattan, both of which I've been to for extended stays.
Quote from: Hoss on April 22, 2009, 09:38:11 AM
I was going to say the same thing. I stayed in Hays KS over night (not really telling) but I can't see how it would fare better over Boulder or Manhattan, both of which I've been to for extended stays.
Also definitely agree. I used to date a guy who was going to school in Hays...if they are referring to "college 'party' towns" I can see that being on a top ten list, because that's pretty much absolutely all there was to do there, not to mention it's totally in the middle of nowhere.
I understand the regents not wanting to duplicate programs at OSU Stillwater and OSU Tulsa. For one thing it would cost more money, and another,that Tulsa program could indeed compete with Stillwater.
I would guess that a good recourse might be that any new program offerings OSU decides to add could go to OSU Tulsa, while still expanding and growing what OSU Stillwater has. Plus expanding and growing the programs that OSU Tulsa already has, especially on the engineering, nanotech and technology fronts. But there again, its frustrating to see new programs and programs that Tulsa has a focus on, being started and expanded in Stillwater.... they can of course then go "well we dont want to spend money or replicate that in Tulsa causing a duplicate program".
As for OSU Stillwaters student population increasing. Dont know what its been these last couple years. But last time I looked on their websites I noticed that OSU Stillwaters website stated that "OSU's" student population had increased a certain amount, but on the OSU Tulsa site they put how many students that particular campus had increased. Basically most of the increase was at the Tulsa campus, not the Stillwater one. That specific campus info conveniently wasnt on the OSU Stillwater site. But during that time hundreds of millions of dollars hav been spent at Stillwater, and precious little in Tulsa. Yet it was Tulsa's student population that was growing the fastest, not Stillwaters.
My understanding was that the degree program limitations had more to do with Langston than OSU-Stillwater. But I don't know details, and I'm having trouble finding any. Dr. Trennepohl was hesitant to say too much, of course, but that's the impression he gave.
And it's fair to note that OSU-Tulsa isn't getting completely left out to dry. They did just complete the new technology center, which is apparently an impressive state-of-the-art facility. So there's certainly an interest. I'd like to know what's next.
Quote from: mjchamplin on April 22, 2009, 10:24:59 AM
My understanding was that the degree program limitations had more to do with Langston than OSU-Stillwater. But I don't know details, and I'm having trouble finding any. Dr. Trennepohl was hesitant to say too much, of course, but that's the impression he gave.
And it's fair to note that OSU-Tulsa isn't getting completely left out to dry. They did just complete the new technology center, which is apparently an impressive state-of-the-art facility. So there's certainly an interest. I'd like to know what's next.
If a program is at OSU Tulsa or Langston Tulsa, its fine with me. But thats not whats holding things back here. They still have the same number of programs even though Langston finally finished their new building. And remember, look at how much Tulsa itself funds TCC, Tulsa Vo-Tech, new campus buildings and such on all the campuses through Vision 2025 (like the research center and Langston building), and Tulsa donors (whose names are on so many Tulsa campus buildings, endowments, etc. The state taxes us to pay for the state universities, then on top of that we tax ourselves more to try and get the basics here that we know we sorely need. I am very glad we have chosen to do that. Though not as flashy as some MAPS brick-town canal, Tulsas decision to invest in Colleges will pay off handsomely. I just feel that the states money could be used more wisely with a little more going to Tulsa than to Stillwater at this time. NOT saying put Stillwater on the backburner or focus soley on Tulsa, but shift to a more "wisely" equitable emphasis.
I'd still like to see a unified, independent 'state' university instead of a satellite campus of OSU which is what we have now. Combine Langston and OSU into Tulsa State and be done with it. It can still be controlled by the OSU Board of Regents but then you won't have the issues we see currently with Langston and Stillwater making things difficult. I'd like to see the City of Tulsa take a bigger step in advancing this university as well, maybe even a MAPS-like initiative to build new buildings on campus and update the infrastructure around it (bury I-244, increase connectivity to Brady, etc.)
Quote from: SXSW on April 22, 2009, 01:29:59 PM
...I'd like to see the City of Tulsa take a bigger step in advancing this university as well, maybe even a MAPS-like initiative to build new buildings on campus and update the infrastructure around it (bury I-244, increase connectivity to Brady, etc.)
I completely agree. Though the campus has great proximity to downtown Tulsa, 244 creates such a barrier, both physically and visually. The only great views of downtown are on the 2nd and 3rd floors, all you see from the ground is a big, looming wall. Elgin provides a link, but only under a dark underpass littered with junk and often populated with homeless people. It would be awesome if a student could walk safely from, say, the blue dome district to campus. Having said that, I'm sure having the ballpark there will address some of the pedestrian issues.
Quote from: mjchamplin on April 22, 2009, 01:38:37 PM
I completely agree. Though the campus has great proximity to downtown Tulsa, 244 creates such a barrier, both physically and visually. The only great views of downtown are on the 2nd and 3rd floors, all you see from the ground is a big, looming wall. Elgin provides a link, but only under a dark underpass littered with junk and often populated with homeless people. It would be awesome if a student could walk safely from, say, the blue dome district to campus. Having said that, I'm sure having the ballpark there will address some of the pedestrian issues.
The ballpark and streetscape, and eventual mixed-use development along Elgin between Blue Dome and 244 should greatly improve the connection to downtown. Burying 244 should be a long range priority though. Creating a east-west corridor that connects Brady to the campus could be achieved if 244 was no longer a barrier. I would favor seeing a 'new' 244 go below grade in between Easton and Fairview between roughly Denver and Elgin. Easton could then run along the southside of the buried highway with student housing on the north and south sides from Boulder into campus just north of the church. John Hope Franklin Park could then be extended north with 244 going underneath the park which could become a focal point for new campus development around it in Brady. I'd like to see the campus expand and densify further west and south to connect with the urban fabric of Brady, and keep the parking etc. on the eastside of campus by the tracks.