http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20090519_16_A9_OKLAHO300705
Ever wonder why the air in Tulsa sucks? 400 employees, "high paying" whatever that means, get the gold while the rest the town continues to get the crud.
Don't you just love the cost benefit analysis our Chamber conducts prior to further deterrence to our quality of life? 400 jobs that supersede the attempt to lure business from outside Tulsa based on what we have to offer and it's certainly not based on quality education, quality jobs and quality environment. No wonder our kids want out of this stink hole. The Chamber and our State Reps don't have much faith in Tulsa's future to be funding with tax dollars bad air for "high paying" jobs.
Corporate welfare is not a Chamber, State nor GOP concern...... hand outs and not hand ups!
You think that is bad?
Try out this little government funded gem!
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20090519_17_A1_MaryBa698839
Quote from: TeeDub on May 19, 2009, 08:34:09 AM
You think that is bad?
Try out this little government funded gem!
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20090519_17_A1_MaryBa698839
THERE'S A BIG DIFF! What are you TooDumb or TeeDub?
One is a hand out to a corporate polluter and one's a hand up to the needy.
You are a creep!
I love how you immediately resort to name calling.
Let's be honest, both of those programs are people taking our hard earned tax dollars and give us no benefit in return.
I honestly don't see how you can condemn only one of them.
Quote from: TeeDub on May 19, 2009, 09:46:55 AM
I love how you immediately resort to name calling.
Let's be honest, both of those programs are people taking our hard earned tax dollars and give us no benefit in return.
I honestly don't see how you can condemn only one of them.
I'd rather see tax dollars spent on health care than corporate welfare.
I don't think this deal would go south if Holly didn't get their incentives.
Seems to me they got that refinery at a fire sale price....65 mil?
Quote from: PepePeru on May 19, 2009, 10:44:13 AM
I'd rather see tax dollars spent on health care than corporate welfare.
I don't think this deal would go south if Holly didn't get their incentives.
Seems to me they got that refinery at a fire sale price....65 mil?
Saves Sunoco about a billion or so $$ on a clean up that would never end.
I don't understand the mind-set of Tulsans. We get pissed when jobs leave town, we get pissed when the city, state, or feds try to help some good paying jobs come here or stay here.
Quote from: Conan71 on May 19, 2009, 11:23:46 AM
Saves Sunoco about a billion or so $$ on a clean up that would never end.
I don't understand the mind-set of Tulsans. We get pissed when jobs leave town, we get pissed when the city, state, or feds try to help some good paying jobs come here or stay here.
It's not Tulsans per se, it's anti-capitalists that want "welfare" to go to those folks that do nothing to move the economy forward. Hey FOTD and PePe, are you hiring right now? Last I heard welfare recipients have a hiring freeze right now.
Quote from: guido911 on May 19, 2009, 12:28:42 PM
It's not Tulsans per se, it's anti-capitalists that want "welfare" to go to those folks that do nothing to move the economy forward. Hey FOTD and PePe, are you hiring right now? Last I heard welfare recipients have a hiring freeze right now.
What? You guess too much Guido.
Unemployment is at %16 and you consider helping others as UnAmerican or welfare.
Ethics and generosity versus no taxes for the poor and the less fortunate but for banks and corporations?
The only freeze right now Guido is bank lending...looks like Paulson's plan is a big fat "F"...
Quote from: FOTD on May 19, 2009, 12:40:10 PM
What? You guess too much Guido.
Unemployment is at %16 and you consider helping others as UnAmerican or welfare.
Ethics and generosity versus no taxes for the poor and the less fortunate but for banks and corporations?
The only freeze right now Guido is bank lending...looks like Paulson's plan is a big fat "F"...
Uh, Hank checked out Jan. 20, or did you miss that? Timmay Geithner was supposed to change all this. What's the saying "Hope in one hand, sh!t in the other, see which fills up first." All we've gotten from Geithner is a palm full of sh!t so far.
When did unemployment shoot up to 16%? Are you counting all the people not actively seeking work like people did during 3.8% UE under President Bush so they could spear him?
Quote from: Conan71 on May 19, 2009, 12:50:49 PM
Uh, Hank checked out Jan. 20, or did you miss that? Timmay Geithner was supposed to change all this. What's the saying "Hope in one hand, sh!t in the other, see which fills up first." All we've gotten from Geithner is a palm full of sh!t so far.
When did unemployment shoot up to 16%? Are you counting all the people not actively seeking work like people did during 3.8% UE under President Bush so they could spear him?
Here. Let me help educate you....
http://www.dollarsandsense.org/blog/2009/05/real-unemployment-at-record-high.html
further.
Quote from: Conan71 on May 19, 2009, 11:23:46 AM
Saves Sunoco about a billion or so $$ on a clean up that would never end.
I don't understand the mind-set of Tulsans. We get pissed when jobs leave town, we get pissed when the city, state, or feds try to help some good paying jobs come here or stay here.
There is obviously an incentive for Holly to purchase the refinery. Its called profit.
If the goal is to continue refining operations, then they need people working there to keep it running.
Incentive to "save jobs" my ***
Quote from: FOTD on May 19, 2009, 12:54:33 PM
Here. Let me help educate you....
http://www.dollarsandsense.org/blog/2009/05/real-unemployment-at-record-high.html
further.
As suspected:
"Line U6 of that same report, however, gives a more accurate picture of the state of unemployment. This rate stands at 15.8% for April 2009, up from 8.9% a year earlier. (All the info comes from the BLS website)."
16%, that's change I can believe in! Damn Busheviks!
Quote from: Conan71 on May 19, 2009, 01:31:27 PM
As suspected:
"Line U6 of that same report, however, gives a more accurate picture of the state of unemployment. This rate stands at 15.8% for April 2009, up from 8.9% a year earlier. (All the info comes from the BLS website)."
16%, that's change I can believe in! Damn Busheviks!
That torturous administration lied all through the past 8 years and you just refuse to believe they purposely skewed the numbers to help in the November elections. Didn't work, Conehead. The numbers of unemployed precipitate from too heavy of a deceptive cloud.
Conan,
You've been FOTD'd.
Quote from: Gaspar on May 19, 2009, 03:29:08 PM
Conan,
You've been FOTD'd.
Call Whine One One and get me a Whaaaambulance!
Uh, FOTARD how about that deceptive Obama Admin only copping to 8.9% then? Dip-smile
Quote from: Conan71 on May 19, 2009, 03:31:44 PM
Call Whine One One and get me a Whaaaambulance!
Uh, FOTARD how about that deceptive Obama Admin only copping to 8.9% then? Dip-smile
You can't restore optimism and confidence using those real numbers. BTW, it's not an election year.
Quote from: FOTD on May 19, 2009, 05:22:11 PM
You can't restore optimism and confidence using those real numbers. BTW, it's not an election year.
How many times have you slept with President Obama? Man you got a bad case of Obama Apology Syndrome. It's very contagious and spread by spooning with him.
I am sure the unemployment rate is around 16%. It was probably about 10% when Obama took office and quickly dropped to 16% with all the layoffs.
If you guys want to try to compare Bush to Obama unemployment you should trying comparing the SAME two numbers instead of two different interpretations. There is no reason to try to pretend like unemployment isn't high FOTD.
Depends which definition you use. You can make it even larger if you add in retirees, college students, etc.
The common yard stick released by the government and picked up by the media does not include "discouraged" workers no longer looking for work. We've argued this in the past ad nauseum.
http://www.publicintegrity.org/blog/entry/1375/
"What's the upshot for job seekers? It's grim. With 24.7 million people looking for work, and 2.7 million jobs open, there are 22 million people out of luck. At least for now"
Eventually working Americans will have to repay the trillions borrowed from Wall Street gamblers to give to Wall Street gamblers. Geithner's bubble is harmful to the economy although undoubtedly valuable to his billionaire buddies. The economy is still getting worse, and eventually the artificial prop will fail and the stock market will tumble much much further than if Geithner had done nothing.
Quote from: FOTD on May 20, 2009, 03:57:43 PM
http://www.publicintegrity.org/blog/entry/1375/
"What's the upshot for job seekers? It's grim. With 24.7 million people looking for work, and 2.7 million jobs open, there are 22 million people out of luck. At least for now"
Eventually working Americans will have to repay the trillions borrowed from Wall Street gamblers to give to Wall Street gamblers. Geithner's bubble is harmful to the economy although undoubtedly valuable to his billionaire buddies. The economy is still getting worse, and eventually the artificial prop will fail and the stock market will tumble much much further than if Geithner had done nothing.
Being kinda harsh on the Obama Administration, aren't you?
Quote from: Conan71 on May 20, 2009, 04:25:07 PM
Being kinda harsh on the Obama Administration, aren't you?
Yup.. 2007 didn't exist. The job market is based solely on the day after Obama took office until today. The graph however fails to show this spike up to 0 the day Obama took office for some reason. You might e-mail everybody to correct them all.
(http://www.linked8.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/1-nfp-m-y-change.gif)
These companies are liars and cheats....Tulsa's worst corporate citizens....told ya so. The worst part is TW buys into their crap and fails to ask the right questions.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?subjectid=49&articleid=20090718_49_E1_Snlius234740
Sinclair expansion on hold
Both Holly Corp. and Sinclair Oil go forward with environmental upgrades at their Tulsa refineries.
By ROD WALTON World Staff Writer
Published: 7/18/2009 2:24 AM
Last Modified: 7/18/2009 4:14 AM
"The Holly Corp. and Sinclair Oil Co. refineries in west Tulsa both are moving ahead with plans for environmental upgrades, but Sinclair's heralded $1 billion expansion will not happen soon, officials said Friday.
Sinclair's two-year growth project is shelved indefinitely because of "external economics," company spokesman John Goodwin said. Giant coke drums shipped from Japan will remain at the Tulsa Port of Catoosa until new work begins.
"It hasn't been canceled, but it's on hold," Goodwin said.
The refinery will continue with other environmental improvements required by a federal court settlement. Sinclair must spend millions to reduce emissions, according to reports.
"We've done quite a bit of work relative to the environmental compliance," Goodwin said. "I think we're regularly moving along."
Sinclair Tulsa Refining Co. announced its $1 billion expansion in 2007, saying it planned to increase daily capacity from the current 65,000 barrels, add employees and decrease air pollution. The company has raised its work-force level to about 300 from 200 two years ago and had begun some engineering work before putting the expansion on hold.
The expansion might have provided 1,500 temporary construction jobs as well as having a trickle-down effect on other area businesses.
Holly Corp. says it will begin its $150 million upgrade of the former Sunoco plant with some engineering work this year. "
Betcha TW gets an internet trickle down effect which ends in chapter 11.
WOW! COULD SINKCLEARAIR be readying itself to go out of business? So, they were lying bastards all along.
They'd have to give away this liability.
Sinclair may want to sell its refinery
The west Tulsa plant's $1 billion expansion is on hold, and industry reports suggest sale inquiries.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?subjectid=49&articleid=20090723_49_E1_Geesew923563
Holly envioronmental cleanup, Batman!
Quote from: FOTD on July 18, 2009, 07:58:21 AM
These companies are liars and cheats....Tulsa's worst corporate citizens....told ya so. The worst part is TW buys into their crap and fails to ask the right questions.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?subjectid=49&articleid=20090718_49_E1_Snlius234740
Sinclair expansion on hold
Both Holly Corp. and Sinclair Oil go forward with environmental upgrades at their Tulsa refineries.
By ROD WALTON World Staff Writer
Published: 7/18/2009 2:24 AM
Last Modified: 7/18/2009 4:14 AM
"The Holly Corp. and Sinclair Oil Co. refineries in west Tulsa both are moving ahead with plans for environmental upgrades, but Sinclair's heralded $1 billion expansion will not happen soon, officials said Friday.
Sinclair's two-year growth project is shelved indefinitely because of "external economics," company spokesman John Goodwin said. Giant coke drums shipped from Japan will remain at the Tulsa Port of Catoosa until new work begins.
"It hasn't been canceled, but it's on hold," Goodwin said.
The refinery will continue with other environmental improvements required by a federal court settlement. Sinclair must spend millions to reduce emissions, according to reports.
"We've done quite a bit of work relative to the environmental compliance," Goodwin said. "I think we're regularly moving along."
Sinclair Tulsa Refining Co. announced its $1 billion expansion in 2007, saying it planned to increase daily capacity from the current 65,000 barrels, add employees and decrease air pollution. The company has raised its work-force level to about 300 from 200 two years ago and had begun some engineering work before putting the expansion on hold.
The expansion might have provided 1,500 temporary construction jobs as well as having a trickle-down effect on other area businesses.
Holly Corp. says it will begin its $150 million upgrade of the former Sunoco plant with some engineering work this year. "
Betcha TW gets an internet trickle down effect which ends in chapter 11.
They are doing the environmental upgrades as promised and continue to employ hundreds of Tulsans in good paying jobs. So what's your issue?
Liars and cheats? Seen the price of oil lately? No wonder the expansion is on hold. Sometimes I think you have a great in-depth knowledge of economics and other times is as if you can't even grasp the basics of it.
Quote from: Conan71 on May 20, 2009, 08:30:47 AM
How many times have you slept with President Obama? Man you got a bad case of Obama Apology Syndrome. It's very contagious and spread by spooning with him.
He moved past spooning to forking a long time ago....
Your illusionary idea of a good corporate citizen is amusing.
Sorry Conman. This is one company Tulsan's would be better without, jobs or no jobs.
Their negative distribution of carbon into our lungs is far worse than what they hand out in "wages".
But you can breath deep.
Refining Keeps Drying Up
http://www.fool.com/investing/international/2009/07/27/refining-keeps-drying-up.aspx
"You would think all of these closures would give a boost to Holly (NYSE: HOC) and other companies that can afford to keep their refineries up and running -- and that is a quite possible outcome."
Get ready for some gasoline inflation...while everything else deflates. They will be processing more gasoline while lowering their so-called "upgrade" priority. Stinky.
Cost benefit analysis tells me this company is doing more harm than good for our most beautiful city.
Environmental upgrades my donkey.
"The former Sunoco Inc. refinery, which Dallas-based Holly took possession of on June 1, will increase daily output to 75,000 barrels by September, spokesman M. Neale Hickerson said. The higher volumes result from a combination of better refining margins and Sunoco's slimmer planning and purchasing schedule in its last month of ownership...We've just been ramping up,"
cough cough...breathe deep when you breathe ...breathe deep.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?subjectid=49&articleid=20090814_49_E3_HollyC480522
"The refinery's last major maintenance turnaround was in 2007, so the next scheduled stoppage won't happen until 2012."
This is weird. We can sit here and watch these stories unfold and illustrate how the local media continues to buy into corporate greed and lies over time. We can also see what a nasty corporate citizen these stinky, unclean, and poisonous facilities do for our chity and their intention to deceive the government and the people.
CoCo....it appears they are not doing environmental upgrades as you stated....don't be a fool.
I didn't say anything about the Holly/Sunoco refinery and enviro upgrades, other than Holly buying them that was going to save Sunoco from paying about $1bln or so in clean-up costs if it ever shut down. That was the Sinclair refinery down the block.
If you think you hate the refineries now, just wait until the day they are shut down and there's masses of rusting rotted junk sitting on the riverbanks for years while they try and coordinate clean-up efforts and deal with all the red tape of that. If anyone doubts me, dig back to the refinery closure on Hwy 75 as you are headed south into Okmulgee. That place rusted forever before they started the clean up and the clean up took forever even after all the equipment was removed.
Quote from: Conan71 on August 14, 2009, 09:33:31 AM
I didn't say anything about the Holly/Sunoco refinery and enviro upgrades, other than Holly buying them that was going to save Sunoco from paying about $1bln or so in clean-up costs if it ever shut down. That was the Sinclair refinery down the block.
If you think you hate the refineries now, just wait until the day they are shut down and there's masses of rusting rotted junk sitting on the riverbanks for years while they try and coordinate clean-up efforts and deal with all the red tape of that. If anyone doubts me, dig back to the refinery closure on Hwy 75 as you are headed south into Okmulgee. That place rusted forever before they started the clean up and the clean up took forever even after all the equipment was removed.
Wow....you place the need for rust remediation above the welfare of our city and the health of it's citizens? Amazing!
Quote from: FOTD on August 14, 2009, 10:15:01 AM
Wow....you place the need for rust remediation above the welfare of our city and the health of it's citizens? Amazing!
You know what? If Sinclair and Sunoco were really two huge cancer petri dishes, EPA would have had their way with them years back and they'd be closed.
Most of the people who biznitch loudest about hazards and the stink seldom go near them. I've worked less than 1/2 mile from Sinclair for five years, and I exercize outdoors between or near Sunoco and Sinclair nearly every day. I can't attribute a single respiratory issue or other health problem to either of these refineries. I also rarely smell anything distinct coming off either refinery.
Listen to me know, believe me later. If either one shuts down, it will be blighted rot on our riverbanks for years while officials have a giant circle jerk trying to sort out where to start cleaning up. I think people have this idealized picture of there being a wildflower plot on top of an old refinery within a year of it being shut down. There's a lot of environmental impact from closing down a refinery. Whole lotta stuff you don't want unattended which could leech into ground water or wind up in our river.
Just being a truth-teller, FOTD.
Quote from: Conan71 on August 14, 2009, 11:54:14 AM
You know what? If Sinclair and Sunoco were really two huge cancer petri dishes, EPA would have had their way with them years back and they'd be closed.
Most of the people who biznitch loudest about hazards and the stink seldom go near them. I've worked less than 1/2 mile from Sinclair for five years, and I exercize outdoors between or near Sunoco and Sinclair nearly every day. I can't attribute a single respiratory issue or other health problem to either of these refineries. I also rarely smell anything distinct coming off either refinery.
Listen to me know, believe me later. If either one shuts down, it will be blighted rot on our riverbanks for years while officials have a giant circle jerk trying to sort out where to start cleaning up. I think people have this idealized picture of there being a wildflower plot on top of an old refinery within a year of it being shut down. There's a lot of environmental impact from closing down a refinery. Whole lotta stuff you don't want unattended which could leech into ground water or wind up in our river.
Just being a truth-teller, FOTD.
I can't really rail on Sunoco; it put food in my belly for the latter part of childhood (my dad worked there from 1979-1999 as a tool machinist). He said they were the best company he ever worked for. He also told me tales of cleaning up the refinery during the early 80s to be EPA compliant. I think I'll believe my dad over the rhetoric and speculation here.
The Sunco Stock is paying a total dividen yearly equal to the total of the prices I paid for the stock with the exception of the amount of dollars that can be counted on your fingers.
And then there's Mike Neal, shill for the national Office of the US Chamber. What a joke...
Firms exit chamber over climate stance
The U.S. Chamber opposes global-warming bills, evoking departures.
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?action=post;topic=13480.30;num_replies=33
"Tulsa Metro Chamber CEO Mike Neal thanked Holly for more than doubling its investment in the city. "
Did they really? Or just abandon our air quality by pulling out the neccesary improvements on the publics dime?
"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows" Bob Dylan (Brady Theater Saturday night)
Better use of public money than I've seen from Warshington, that's for sure.
The anti-business is just astounding. You know, you can live in a totally renewable, zero-emission yurt out on the prairie if you wanted to. Enjoy the poverty.