The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

I realize that it takes a lot of helpers to complete a project.  What are the Church's doing and who are the leaders in North Tulsa that have the ability to CHANGE the pathetic situation that is going on over there?  What Church's are united?

Scapegoating Vilifying their multi denominational congregations after 90 years of intolerance towards blacks by this city will not help.

Physically, the north side was separated by highways. Educationally, the north side was cut off from equal educational resources. Emotionally, the north side was brought down by the worst race riot known to mankind. Socially, the north side was never included.

The pathetic situation has been going on over there at the hands of the city's white master race for nearly a century.

No answer I guess to the leaders?  Who are the leaders and What Churchs are attempting to change their situation?

If the people could make it back then than they could make it now!!!  Then it was legal to hold them back!!  What's holding the North Side Back??

Seneca Scott and Jabar Shumate are both more active than every other state rep in the city. They have meetings all the time talking about dozens of projects they have going on. You can't judge what North Tulsa is doing from a Starbucks in South Tulsa. Tulsa EDC has been working with the city EDC, Henderson, etc on a variety of fronts as well.

Results is the name of the game!!  What results have they produced?

Why do folks constantly blame churches in North Tulsa for failing to act?  How many churches in South Tulsa are responsible for business expansion and growth?

What is the main reason that businesses are not going to the North Side?  What's the main reason that there is no grocery store on North Peoria?  There are enough people buying groceries.  There are enough people shopping for clothes, toys, music, CARS, etc....  The job of the church is to lift the moral IN THE COMMUNITY to change lives and further the gospel of Jesus Christ OUTSIDE OF THERE BUILDING.  Is the moral high or low on the North Side?  Who COULD BE more EFFECTIVE at stopping Prostitution, Drug Trafficking, Gang Violence, etc church or law enforcement?  Virgin st. is a very popular street for prostitution.  I wonder what would happen if church's where teaching Daily classes in each of the projects?  Classes to educate on literature, family communication, job skills, PARENTING, business planning, etc......  The only church that I hear about doing things at all on a DAILY basis is from the South Side......   Why is that? 

It really bother's me that generation after generation after generation refuses to help train up their community.  It's like the U.S. going into a country under brutal communism, freeing the people and they still choose to live in or look for the government to help them when they have all of the tools that they need.  When will the excuses stop?  Ok, i've probably upset some people but the reality is that there is no significant unity amongst the church's in North Tulsa.  Until they unify and take this thing head on then it will always be this way.  They are not doing their job by not unifying.....

If you truly believe prostitution, drugs and gangs only happen on the north side, you seriously need to take in inward look.

What specific churches in South Tulsa are dealing with drugs, gangs and prostitution?

I never stated only happening on the North Side......  I stated I personally only know of one church doing activities on the North Side on a daily basis.  Activities meaning going into the projects and different neighbor hoods and doing ministry, classes on parenting, etc.....  The businesses and church involvement on the south side are plentiful compared to the North Side. The church in specific is Victory Christian Center's Mobile Kids Club. They also have purchased land and are creating changes in that area.  However there doesn't appear to be much networking with other church's. 
So because they are going into the projects and higher crime/ poverty area.  They are dealing with these things: drugs, prostitution, gangs, etc..

Which goes back to my point that the church's on the North Side are not unified!!

Church On The Move is a north side church and they have plenty of youth activities. Don't forget that the Tulsa north side is more than the area you want to sector off. The church's are not at fault except for providing freebies that continue's the Gov'ts catch 22 system  ie: welfare, HUD (section 8) anything to hinder self pride and pulling up their boot straps. It's more money for each kid you produce and it's more money to stay un-married.
 The Gov't programs are needed but enforcement of it's abuse is needed more along with more requirments to meet if you stay on them. The church's do not deserve a blame when they can be overwhelmed with the picking up of the pieces from a failed system and straining to have the resources to fix the problem.

Something like that IMO

I don't buy into your premise anyway. I doubt that if all the churches in North Tulsa were unified that they could solve the problems there. Wilbur makes a good point. I remember a house of prostitution that was closed back in the 90's. It was a half block from a Catholic school. Catholics are pretty unified. It would help to have a united effort but if unified religion was the answer it would have made a bigger dent the last 2000 years.

The reason there are no grocery stores or other big retailers is simple. They fear you (cultures they don't understand or embrace). They fear the crime, they fear the theft and they fear low profitability. Problems there are now rooted in several generations. This is not racism per se, it is as you say, reality. Businessmen are pragmatic, seldom moralistic. You must start those businesses and show them how to be profitable.

I don't want to sound cynical. I applaud your energy in enlisting northside churches. It breaks my heart to see decent people being ravaged by drugs and crime each morning on the news. I pray for you all. However, if you seek unity in your area, continue to seek out alliances with those in other areas who know the disturbing treatment that led to problems over there. Be proud of your successes so far in getting the word out that your community is under siege by the basest elements and you are not going to surrender to them.

You are still missing the point!!  The point is that the church's are not unifying!!  I mentioned one church that is doing their own thing and you are mentioning one church that is doing it's own thing!  Where is the unity in that?  The money idea is an interesting thought!!  As being a product I realize that married or not they give the same dollar amount if you live in the same house the father is still part of the calculated equation!!  The only thing that is provided is food and housing not more housing or food that actually gets one ahead!!

The failed system is the church!!!!  What is the biblical role of the church????  What is the role of the government????

You are not processing it either.  I apologize for my bad communication... the fear that you stated proves my "premise"  every huge move through history that church's unified FOR CHANGE happened..  Once again its the churches fulfilling their calling to unify and go after the problem head on!!  If all of the churches with their members where in each project housing on a daily basis teaching "how to fish" i.e. how to parent, budget, interact with society, get a good paying job, START A BUSINESS, etc.. then these conditions would not be as they are.  Those that are selling drugs and prostitutes would not be as prevalent as they are. The projects would produce successful people if these non-profits put the above resources into them.  It would be like living on a  "2nd chance" college campus.  Just think about it before you respond.

this is true but it doesn't answer the simple question.  "What churches are unified to solve the social problems"

Listen to this track "Mason Dixon" by hip hop rhymer Phanatik, a member of the Cross Movement. 

http://music.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=music.popupplayer&sindex=-1.4&shuffle=false&amix=false&pmix=false&plid=16337&profid=164108405&friendid=164108405&sseed=0&ptype=3&stime=1.541&ap=1&rpeat=false (http://music.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=music.popupplayer&sindex=-1.4&shuffle=false&amix=false&pmix=false&plid=16337&profid=164108405&friendid=164108405&sseed=0&ptype=3&stime=1.541&ap=1&rpeat=false)


Some of the lyrics are like this -

"That's what he said as we sat on his porch,
And talked about the difference between the south and the north,
And I ain't dissin', cause these facts that I'm kickin' are true,
North and south of the Mason Dixon

Just cause the whips done stopped,
Don't mean you free to go boy pick them crops,
I mean, Pick that cotton, make them tracks,
Say somethin that's gonna make that cash,
Take this advance, but pay that back,
You under contract, you gotta come back,
Especially if your culture is for sale,
What up homie, ain't your culture for sale?

Don't get offended man, we gotta start here,
African American history, and just to be clear,
What I'm gonna attempt to prove to you,
Is that this north and south struggle ain't new.
Turn in your history books with me,
Let's take a look at Booker T.,
In the south, he was the man of choice,
But up north, it was W.E.B DuBois,
And his boys at the NAACP,
What could have been the trouble?
Just you wait and see.
Twenty years after slavery and the question is,
Now that the slaves are free,
What's gonna be the best circumstance?
The perfect plan for the negroes further advancement,
Is it teachin him to work with his hands,
Or does education grant him a certain chance?...."

No.  The point is... the people aren't unifying.  

The church are the people........ So back to the original question "What churches are unified to solve the social problems"  I want to see the problem identified!!

How is it that the churches not unified is the problem? 

edit: just noticed that you said the church are the people (poor grammer there btw).  Please explain how the church is the people there when there are many types of church, many with conflicting views, that represent many types of people. In addition to this, only a small portion of the population attends church now (relatively).

Okay, I give. :) What is the problem and what churches are unified to face it?

Back in the day...

I say that is the problem.  Too much of North Tulsa sits back and demands the church takes care of social ills.  How long do we wait until we decide that's not going to work, or won't happen, and take matters into their own hands?

Or, perhaps you are missing the point that not everyone agrees with your assessment of the situation.

Actually, IMO, I think the community church is a great place to start.  People need some sort of community-wide inspiration.  Government solutions obviously have not worked.

Thanks!!  The church as a non-profit has the ability to gather the man power "it's members" and the money "tithe, offering, grants" to make things happen faster then an individual.   When Dr. King, Malcolm X and Obama lol tried to create a change or standard they used organizations as a platform because those platforms brought the man power, the money and the credibility in most cases.  If the North Side or North and South side church's take on this approach than there will be change.   

Pride is the key opposing force!!!!

Consider the projects Vs. college.....

The projects you have to do better to leave college you don't.  The principle is to be educated.  If education and training was part of the option I think that the level of accountability from the non-profits would presure in a good way those that live there to thrive.  I honestly don't believe that if those in the projects had a way out would stay.  I don't think these company's "churches" are doing the best. ???

Yes. You are correct. The cutting off of North Tulsa from the rest of our city by I-244 did not work. Government failed. "They" still have a problem....even though most of the deciders are now dead. Let's see, the government was in on the riot too. And the government failed to deliver equal opportunity through public schools. And....

Churchianity will not solve a century of bad government agent decisions which divorced North Tulsa from the rest of our community. If we had invested hundreds of millions of dollars back into this area rather than Owasso, Sand Springs, Jenks and Bixby, you would have seen improvement.

It's not government that's the problem. It's the engineers of our government that seem to be the problem...

PRIDE? This ain't no football team bozoXEALS for THRILLS. Keep writing so we can all watch your "innocence" unfold.

I'm not talking about churchianity, I'm talking about activism.

Churches can be very powerful as focus-driven community activism platforms.  How many churches do you think got mobilized in President Obama's days as a community organizer?

 

That was ACORN....and you should know you're relatives!

No we aren't.  I'm a white hater, remember?

You mean white hatter...as in good guys.

You pale in comparison to those Tulsans that came before with their attitudes towards "coloreds" creating a continual no growth situation. The days may be over where the North siders can't see for looking.

But let's be realistic. The best schools and the best roads can be found in near North Tulsa and great access to the suburbs. Maybe if they froze the faculty at the schools and made neighborhood boundaries for attendance there then we would see a new stonger demographic evolve.

FOTD guesses we could make congregations and 5013c's free of property taxes only should they locate to North Tulsa. That's the ticket...a tax free zone. Man, that would really confuse a lot of Wingnutians.

No sh!t.

ok you to lets stay on course!!  Who are the community leaders on the north side and what churches are working together to make a difference?

 Keep writing so we can all watch your "innocence" unfold.......................What does this mean?

DUDE! We are on course. You need to take the course. Change in North Tulsa will not occur from within their ranks....it will take all our community. What the heck is left of the north side community? Get it? 

FOTD's suggestions are from the heart. Before he descends to hell he hopes to see a vibrant North side. His innocence was never hung up on the cross of our religiocity nor lost on the decisions of our communal intolerance.

It means you are looking for some righteous solution rather than understanding the nature of the problem.

I'm not looking for a righteous solution!!

So.....Please express what it takes to see North Tulsa Function like a vibrant, safe, productive city should.

Inclusion backed up by big bucks....did you not read my post about transportation and education and tax incentives?

Like going around in circles with a child, XT. Get some sack.

Now, what are your ideas? Or were you just being a closet religious freak?

I think that in some way.  There needs to be a movement.  An Urban renascence.  Now I only have experience in ideas.  I have never produced results outside of organizeing my family on spring cleaning day!  lol

I don't have the answer's but I am frustrated because I know that things could be better. 

My idea is getting the community to organize and create  programs that are teaching the adults education on budgeting, parenting, entrepernuership, and more.  I think that it would be great for a media company to pick up on these things and make a weekly show, showing what's going on.  This brings accountability to the non-profits and is an incentive to getting them to help.

what programs do you think that would be most effective when it comes to turning this situation areound?  Most programs stop as you become a teenager.  I just read an article today that Bill Gates is now going after the youth oriented tv programs to tell kids to finish school.

There is a wonderful ofpportunity for the kids here.  If they finish school with a c average then they can go to tcc for free for a period.

I've seen so many athletes  gifted athlete's have to drop a sport because of their grades.  Or go to college and is arrested for drug charges or something stupid because of their lack of understanding how much of a step back that life style will take them. if we can set up a program that teaches these kids their studies so that they can stay in sports then I think that would be helpful.

Their are many entrepreneurial people running around trying to start something but are cluless to what the next step is.  If succesful business people could spend time answering question teaching how to do a business plan or even an incubator program available then that would be helpful

Fyi...  The greenwood culture business program is a pathetic suggestion!!!

In the early 1900's their where many black millionaire's!  Wow. so things would have been different.

How do we put these things together to get the community to get involved? 

One of the nation's worst acts of racial violence—the Tulsa Race Riot—occurred there on June 1, 1921, when 35 square blocks of homes and businesses were torched by mobs of angry whites.
The riot began because of an alleged assault of a white woman, Sarah Page, by an African American man, Dick Rowland. This incident produced even more hatred between the whites and the blacks even though there was no proof of the assault. The case was simply a white woman’s word against a black man’s word. The Tulsa Tribune got word of the incident and published the story in the paper on May 31, 1921. Shortly after the newspaper article surfaced, there was news that a white lynch mob was going to take matters into its own hands and kill Dick Rowland. [5]
African American men began to arm themselves and join forces in order to protect Dick Rowland; however, this action prompted white men to arm themselves and confront the group of African American men. There was an argument in which a white man tried to take a gun from a black man, and the gun fired a bullet up into the sky. This incident promoted many others to fire their guns, and the violence erupted on the evening of May 31, 1921. Whites flooded into the Greenwood district and destroyed the businesses and homes of African American residents. No one was exempt to the violence of the white mobs; men, women, and even children were killed by the mobs.
Troops were deployed on the afternoon of June 1st, but by that time there was not much left of the once thriving Greenwood district. Over 600 successful businesses were lost. Among these were 21 churches, 21 restaurants, 30 grocery stores and two movie theaters, plus a hospital, a bank, a post office, libraries, schools, law offices, a half-dozen private airplanes and even a bus system.[7] Property damage totaled $1.5 million (1921).[7] Although the official death toll claimed that 26 blacks and 13 whites died during the fighting, most estimates are considerably higher. At the time of the riot, the American Red Cross listed 8,624 persons in need of assistance, in excess of 1,000 homes and businesses destroyed, and the delivery of several stillborn infants.[5]

XFT, your comment on free tuition at TCC brought to mind some things:  There's certainly opportunities for people from any segment of Tulsa if they decide to pursue and take advantage of it.

At times I grow frustrated and tired of people like Jack Henderson who complain that north Tulsans always get the shaft.  So long as people wait around for a solution to come to them, one may never arrive.  If someone goes out and seeks a solution, they have a better chance of getting one.  There's plenty of opportunities for individuals who live in north Tulsa. 

Nice Wikipedia copy/paste....least you could do was leave the link.

 ::)

Awww smile, is Arnett back?

I'm seeking understanding of how to prepare and present a solution

sorry

thanks for chiming in.... ???

What do you think could create an Urban Renaissance in North Tulsa?

$$300-900 million

? Could you elaborate please?

Field of Dreams theory...you draw the picture.

I would encourage the local, state, and federal governments avoid putting further low-income housing projects in North Tulsa. That would help.

That's what Taylor and Lafortune says about down town.  It seems to work i think?

A strong downtown would be very beneficial for North Tulsa. Additionally, as nearly every other city in North America and globally has shown, a strong downtown is beneficial for an entire city.

Therefore, I can more easily support larger spending in Downtown Tulsa than I can in North Tulsa.

how does it help North Tulsa?  The opinion is drug's, murder, and gangs

Correct, but opinion doesn't completely correlate with reality. As people spend time in and around North Tulsa, you begin to realize that the crime and general undesirable areas do not include ALL of north Tulsa. Immediately north of downtown is Brady Heights, a neighborhood that has made tremendous improvements over the years to revitalize itself. Same with Crosbie Heights, Owen Park, etc.

Additionally, as Downtown improves its standing as a mixed-use neighborhood, the surrounding neighborhoods can take advantage of goods and services provided.

I wish I had a little more time to reply, but unfortunately, I'm at work.

thanks.

what do u think that the community leaders can do to help the moral in the area and bring more education to those that do not qualify for the tcc free school program. Due to age or having kids

The morals or the morale?

morale

I'd love to see more news coverage on the positive developments in North Tulsa. The same could be said for East Tulsa and West Tulsa. About the only news I hear about those areas of town are about drugs or violence, and little-to-nothing about any of the neighborhoods that are turning themselves around. It used to be that way regarding Downtown as well, but a concerted effort to also discuss the positive developments (things such as hotel and retail openings, new parks, events, and special interest pieces) has really helped improve the morale of citizens who work, live, and play in or around the downtown area.

There are groups in North Tulsa who could help lead this charge of helping improve the image of the area. You mentioned the churches, but there is also the Greenwood Chamber of Commerce, North Tulsa Development Council, city-wide media sources such as television and print news. All of these should play in active role in not only presenting the negatives, but also the positives. I realize that is easier said than done (I've worked in publishing before, and people seem to want to read negative news more than positive). And, for the most part, they have been stepping up to the plate more recently than they have in the past. I've been starting to see classes, neighborhood meetings, town hall forums, and roundtable discussions pop up in North Tulsa.
Granted, the fruits of this current pressure to improve North Tulsa will take many years, just as it has for midtown and Downtown. It's hard to wait, because we want all of the issues to be solved immediately and simply, but unfortunately, it doesn't work that way.

The city councilman might speak up about some positives periodically.

Sorry to just toss this out there but the last thing I remember hearing from him is too many people will be growing MJ in the community gardens.

Please correct me if I've just missed him.

So. The thinking is communal? Create a Utopian society there? Make bikes, grow organic, produce environmental friendly products, and no religion....etc.

How realistic is that idea?

What are your ideas?

A location like the YMCA that is family oriented.  The difference is that they have classes taught on the different classes that I mentioned previously.
here is a great entrepreneurship program.  http://www.josephcenter.com/school/ the man on their is a billionaire.  He owns a bank and a mall oh yea he is a preacher as well.

Already exists. Hutcherson Family YMCA at 1120 E Pine St.

You jerk....get lost. You're an idjit!

as does the Mabee Center....and I am not talking about the one at 81st and Lewis.....I am referring to the Salvation Army Mabee Center on North Harvard. 

Maybe you should learn more about the subject you are trying to preach to everyone about....I'm just saying!

EDIT: To clarify......that was not directed at you TURoby, it was at Xeals for Thrills or whatever the hell their name is.  I apologize for the confusion.

?  i'm confused.  what is wrong with the Y?
or did i use the "pastor" word