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Greetings -

The Tulsa World called Friday to get a statement regarding an agenda item on the Board of Commissioner's agenda. Apparently on November 2, a request for a public hearing will be heard. If approved, the hearing will be on November 23.

Fortunately Kevin Canfield called, else I would not have known about the agenda item.

The story will in be in Sunday's paper. My comments will be posted afterwards.

Sincerely,

Elizabeth Wright

Comments, questions, etc. are always welcomed.

On Friday November 6th I received the Petition for Removal. I am under the assumption that my removal is precedent setting. Hopefully some good will come of this action.

The causes are 1. Violation of the Code of Interest, Conflict of Interest 2. Conduct which materially and adversely affects the orderly or efficient operation of the TMAPC and 3. Appearing at the City Council

The link to the TMAPC minutes for the May 21, 2008 meeting appears below. The discussion concerning QT begins on p. 45 and my attempt to correct Mr. Norman's assertions appears on p. 55. The May 21st meeting was the longest in TMAPC history. We began at 1:30 pm and ended shortly before 11:00 pm that night. Many citizens showed up to air their concerns on a myraid of issues. Why the agenda was stacked that day is entirely your opinion.

http://www.tmapc.org/Approved%20Minutes/2008/05-21-08.pdf

I get the giggles over #2. As I tend to "ask questions developers don't like", I suppose that could be construed as "affects the orderly or efficient operation of the TMAPC".

As an appointed commissioner we are suppose to ask questions.

As a private citizen I have this right, it is called the First Amendment. I happen to like it. I hope you do too. Although I repeatedly stated that I was a private citizen - I did exactly what I was told I could do as long as I state clearly that I am speaking as a private citizen. I guess it isn't okay after all. In fact, the TMAPC spent many many weeks rewriting the ethics code to discourage speaking at the city council - all because of little ole me.

The questions that begs an answer - is what is really going on? Anyone know?

For anyone who has attended or watched meetings I would sincerely like to hear your impression of efficient operations.

The charges are suppose to merit "just cause".

Rather than to nilly willy in fabrications I would rather use my removal to hold the Board of County Commissioners, the Mayor and the City Council accountable for equitable representation on the TMAPC from all parts of the City.

There are 9 commissioners in total. Three are appointed by the County. I was under the assumption that the three county districts were to be represented by residents in those districts. Presently District 1 - North Tulsa County (Smaligo) is represented by Gail Carnes, (a builder before selling mobile homes), for the past 20+ years. He works on Admiral but lives in South Tulsa. District 3 - South Tulsa -  (Perry) is represented by John Dix, retired QT real estate acquistioner, lives in Collinsville. District 2 - Middle of Tulsa County - (Keith) is represented by Liz Wright who lives and works on District 2. Small Business owner - Tutoring and has no connection to builders, developers or commercial or residential real estate.

The City Council rubber stamps the mayoral recommendations. The present 6 all live in midtown, City Council districts 4 and 9. Josh Walker, commercial real estate; Phil Marshall, residential builder; Bill Leighty residential real estate; John Shivel, retired military (?); Keith McArtor, lawyer; Michelle Cantrell, housewife. I have challenged the number of real estate connected commissioners. The Home Builders and Developers constitute the largest lobby Tulsa has. Yes, of course there are great developments. Far too often there are those that are less than great.

There is no representation from any other council districts.

Until pressure is placed on the mayor and the city council to get representation nothing will change. The TMAPC in many ways contribute (sic) to the economic development in Tulsa. Good planning leads to good economics.

Thank you.

Liz Wright

Quote from: Liz Wright on November 08, 2009, 02:04:55 AM

The questions that begs an answer - is what is really going on? Anyone know?

I thought you'd answer that question, not ask it yourself. I got no dog in this hunt, but you seem to be spending a lot of time deflecting the questions rather than answering them.

Quote from: Liz Wright on November 08, 2009, 02:04:55 AM

The link to the TMAPC minutes for the May 21, 2008 meeting appears below. The discussion concerning QT begins on p. 45 and my attempt to correct Mr. Norman's assertions appears on p. 55.

Ah, the 21st & Harvard QT PUD where the developer tried to submit a bogus lighting plan.
We discussed that at great length here...
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=6838.0

On Friday November 6th I received the Petition for Removal. I am under the assumption that my removal is precedent setting. Hopefully some good will come of this action.  

The causes are 1. Violation of the Code of Interest, Conflict of Interest 2. Conduct which materially and adversely affects the orderly or efficient operation of the TMAPC and 3. Appearing at the City Council

To clarify - Conflict of interest refers to my being president of the Florence Park Neighborhood Association. Conversations with residents surrounding 21st & Harvard began approximately May 2007 due to John Dix and Maria Barnes presenting the new and improved Quik Trip. The QT was the impetus for the NA to gear back up. Elections were held in November 2007 and John Dix (yes, he is currently on the TMAPC) was informed that the citizens he was speaking to did not represent Florence Park as a whole. No one from QT or their representative ever spoke at a FPNA meeting.

Our residents were soon bored with any conversation concerning QT and wanted to get on with Neighborhood business. We got the newsletter up and running and began having monthly activities. It was at the February or March meeting when Randi Miller showed up and discussed the TMAPC with me. She stated she was looking for a neighborhood person. She intereviewed me and appointed me. My first meeting was on April 16, 2008.

When QT came up at the following NA meeting (it was on the May 21 agenda), I left the room so as not to have a conflict of interest. The neighbors discussed without my knowing what they discussed. At the May 21 TMAPC meeting, neither Randi Miller nor Maria Barnes appeared.  

What constitutes conflict of interest? Chair Chip Ard and I discussed the matter prior to the May 21 meeting. Since Florence Park NA never took a stance one way or the other and simply provided the forum the NA didn't have a conflict. Since I personally am not affected in any way I do not gain or lose because of QT.

The loss is for the citizens on Gary Pl in their property values and the increase in traffic, trucks idling in the back parking lot  and congested parking along Gary Pl. QT trucks block other businesses on 21 and Gary. None of which affects me. The increase in traffic does as it does everyone who drives through that intersection.


As to appearing before the city council - I had every right to.

To Mr. Rwarn - No sir, I do not dodge questions, nor do I duck, run or otherwise avoid. Unless asked, I can't answer. Please then, ask.

Thank you for your questions.

Liz Wright

Quote from: rwarn17588 on November 08, 2009, 09:06:50 AM

I thought you'd answer that question, not ask it yourself. I got no dog in this hunt, but you seem to be spending a lot of time deflecting the questions rather than answering them.

Sir, there are several questions I can think of (and many others I am sure) that need answers. The fact that I will be removed is a given. Karen Keith has county resources and county lawyers to do whatever it takes. The County commissioners are accountable to no one save the voters at election time. Think of Bells - I now know what the Bells meant by the commissioner meetings. Yes, Randi Miller was voted out but not before Bells was torn down.

We are in the middle of the PlaniTulsa update. It will come before the TMAPC beginning Dec/Jan time frame and public hearings will be held. PlaniTulsa is the vision, the zoning to back it up will be next. Tulsa has no design standards making it very easy for certain projects to ... well - think of Santa Fe where the design standards dictate, or Williamsburg. Tulsa at this time has no overarching standards. Ours focus on lot size and square feet. What doesn't suit the developers is brought back to either the TMAPC or the BOA for "adjustments". That is why set backs get reduced from 30' to 5' for example. Or why lighting plans get modified, or landscape plans get reduced.

The County Commissioners get a very hefty salary. The City Councilors get a tiny one. Who do you suppose gets more calls from citizens? County has 4 yr terms, Councilors have 2 yr terms. And we tend to have short memories.

Hope this helps the Q & A portion.

Liz Wright

OK, well, here are questions.

If there's a possible problem with conflict of interest, why didn't you simply resign from the Florence Park association? That's what many public officials do to avoid that sort of situation.

Do you discount the possibility of "rude" behavior on your part?

Quote from: rwarn17588 on November 08, 2009, 11:43:01 AM
OK, well, here are questions.

If there's a possible problem with conflict of interest, why didn't you simply resign from the Florence Park association? That's what many public officials do to avoid that sort of situation.

Do you discount the possibility of "rude" behavior on your part?

Hi -

Thank you for asking. Probably because we were in the middle of our Picnic and neighborhood garage sale. I would need to go back and look at our newsletters to recall exactly what was going on. Eventually I did resign from all responsibilities at the NA because of the economy. I think... February 2009. The last meeting I organized was in June '08. There again I need to look at the newsletter.

See - there just really wasn't a conflict of interest. It is being alleged. That was either my third or fourth meeting and the agenda was very full. I tried earnestly to be prepared for each item, to learn as much as I could about the history of each. Regarding QT, if it had gone in on a different corner would the same questions concerning conflict of interest be there? What consitutes conflict of interest? A certain number of feet from a project? Financial gain? What? I will contest that being informed or knowledgeable about a topic is not.

As to my being rude... Rude isn't grounds. Nor is blithering, or stuttering, or stammering, or only occassionally showing up and delaying the meeting by asking questions which clearly show they haven't read any minutes in weeks or months.; nor is going on and on just to fill up their allocated 20 minutes.  If it were, several commissioners should be removed and many of the developers and lawyers removed.

Btw, I was informed months ago that my questions promote more questions that people who don't want to answer them are forced to come up with some answers. Ergo Chair Cantrell was given marching orders to keep me quiet. Of course that was fed to me and never told to me directly.

For example, environmental questions, infrastructure questions, impact questions. According to our own training through the American Planning Association we can even request economic impact studies. We never have.

So why isn't it okay to question the developers and their representatives?

Just to weigh in with my 2-cents worth on this subject given the TW commenters statement I posted in another post here and having read that City Ethics Ordinance now ad-nausem and even having ready pages 55-63 of the TMAPC meeting minutes Ms. Wright was kind enough to post on here.

If (and I say IF because legal language is so specific) the TMAPC prescribes to the same language contained within the City of Tulsa Ethics Ordinance, I see a problem here for you Ms. Wright.  

The COT Ethics Ordinance states that any official having the following, may have a conflict of interest and the possibility, not the actuality of a conflict, shall govern.

Organizational Interest in a company, business, organization, or other entity exists
when the City official is a director or a member of a board which establishes policy and/or
budgetary decisions for the entity.

Personal Interest means a direct or indirect interest, matter, or relationship not
shared by the general public which could be reasonably expected to impair the City
official's objectivity or independence of judgment.

As the acting President of the Florence Park Home Owners Association, you should have properly recused yourself from any discussion and allowed another HOA board member to take up the issue with the TMAPC thereby avoiding the Organizational Interest.

The fact that you live within the Florence Park neighborhood and as a Board member of the HOA, you took up the issue on behalf of your neighborood, you had a Personal Interest and should have also recused.

In either case, its unfortunate, I think you do a great job asking the right questions, but you have to know when to pick your battles and this wasn't it.   Its frustrating when you are trying to do the right thing but you have to walk a fine line in such instances.  

The least you could have done perhaps, in order to at least appear impartial, was to ask questions (without stating facts on behalf of the FPHOA), and announcing that if backup information, codes and such that were provided were in line with what the developer was proposing, you would favor it.

I think arguing more on behalf of the FPHOA in your capacity as a TMPAC member may have crossed a line, particularly if the language of the TMAPC's ethics code is the same as COT's - but then I dont know.  Do you have the language you could post here?

hey listen, Karen Keith doesn't care if there was a conflict of interest....if she truely did she would have made this an issue the day she was sworn in.  The other commissioners don't care either, because if they did they would have addressed this back in 2008 when it happened.  The fact of the matter is Keith is a thug, and the rest of the TMAPC are either thugs with incestuous relationships with the development lobby or toadies who claim one thing but then sit by and let the opposite happen {EDIT} Wright is frequently a lone holdout in the votes because she knows that the plans are frequently wrong/incomplete/incompatible.....if not at times down right unethical.

Actually READ the minutes.  Wright is asking questions in context of PLAIN and SIMPLE code rules, like handicap parking spaces.  I mean if she is going to recuse herself from the whole issue, who is going to ask those questions? They are basic questions to be covered for ANY development.  I didn't read anyone else clamoring to get those questions asked, they must have been shining their rubber stamps.

Actually these minutes, and just about any minutes from one of these kangaroo courts, shows just how corrupt and ridiculous TMAPC is.  Instead of sending these jackhole developers back to the drawing board they pull s hits like Midget and just keep modifying motions until they can get a vote to pass.  I'm actually shocked that Wright could keep going to these meetings and not come away with a sick slimy feeling that needed 3 cold showers to wash away.

Thank you for your insight and comments. I truly appreciate them.

First I need to correct what I am sure is an oversight. A Home Owners Association normally covers subdivisions like "Hunters Crossing" and is built into the subdivision. You pay HOA dues (I hear they can be hefty). In a Neighborhood Association the boundaries are established by their own by-laws. There are no dues but a membership fee, if you want to pay it. There are many other differences - A NA doesn't make any financial decisions on the part of its membership for maintanence of properties. I am trying to distinguish between financially binding requirements on the part of a HOA regarding a subdivision vs. deciding to do t-shirts. Most of Tulsa  prior to 1975 was not in any organized HOA. We have subdivisions - I think there are 15 or so within the boundaries of Harvard to the BA, 15th to 21st - sometimes as small as a block. These are different than the south Tulsa subdivisions that we think of today. 

That small distinction is a rather major one for NA. In FP only the persons who actually live in FP can have a say on FP matters. Property owners outside FP have no say whatsoever.

At least this is how I understand the distinction.

Secondly - Florence Park does not have a relationship with the businesses that surround the neighborhood. At least they didn't when I was president. Other than to solicit advertising. This is an important distinction when contrasted with the Brookside NA and the Brookside Merchants Groups that have had issues. While I have not attended any of their meetings, I have been told the BNA has been taken over by the commercial interests. Effectively silencing the residents. This was never more acutely seen as during the Bomsada hearing (also May 21) when the Merchants came out against the NA. Again the interests of money over the quality of life of the citizens. Curiously enough, Chairman Ard read a letter by Karen Keith supporting Bomsada and against the neighborhoods. Just remembered that.

Thirdly, and then I have to go. ( I will follow up later to make sure I address your questions) Chairman Chip Ard and I discussed this matter at the time and I was left with the impression that there was not a problem. Remember this happened in May 2008 so now in November 2009 it is? What changed during this time? If Randi Miller or any of the other commissioners at that time had a problem I would have thought they would have addressed it then. Karen Keith was not a commissioner at that time. So it is rather clear to me that she was primed and pumped for this.


I do recall someone suggesting that I "temporarily" resign for a few days. I did not think that ethical.

Must go.

Thank you again.

Liz Wright

no if she was primed and pumped she would have done this the first day in office.  Now her donors/puppetmasters are calling in their favors.  You'd think that since QT already has one crony on the board why they would want another.

I'm actually shocked that Wright could keep going to these meetings and not come away with a sick slimy feeling that needed 3 cold showers to wash away.

I don't know how to capture part of the text.

Thanks for the laugh. I need it.

Yes, there were meetings that required lots of decompression. Definately. And yes I know there are many sweetheart deals in the background. But.... and always pay attention to the but.... without fail, and I mean without fail on the worst days when I wondered why in the heck am I letting myself be subject to this nonesense - I would come home to emails or phone calls from people I had never met thanking me. I will never forget the gal who told me "you are my hero". How sweet. And that is why I could go into those meetings.

This is not a popularity contest. This involves peoples property values, their life interests, their sense of home and of community. This is very very important. This surmounts any yukies I might encounter.

Students are here.

Have a lovely day.

Thank you for the smile.

Liz Wright

and this folks, is the very reason for the sorry state of development/planning in this town.  When people like Wright are the exception and not the norm.  But Tulsa is getting exactly the kind of development it deserves....and until TMAPC is disbanded or completely reappointed with a new set of criteria it will continue to get what it deserves.

Great use of TNF .... Liz Wright, thanks for showing up and educating those of us that were rather passive about what appeared to be a cat fight. Initiating this thread in itself shows strength in personal convictions. Inteller, you don't come around enough. This forum got more information on this issue out than anywhere else in Tulsa MSM.

Quote from: rwarn17588 on November 08, 2009, 09:06:50 AM

I thought you'd answer that question, not ask it yourself. I got no dog in this hunt, but you seem to be spending a lot of time deflecting the questions rather than answering them.

Then go away and shut up  ;D

Quote from: Liz Wright on November 08, 2009, 12:08:11 PM

As to my being rude... Rude isn't grounds.

I take it with that answer that, yes, you were rude.

Whether it's grounds for dismissal, it depends. The details probably will be hashed out at the hearing. But I think most folks would agree that since you're a public official, you need to take the high ground in interacting with the public. Maybe there's some notable failings by you with that. We'll see.

And as DowntownNow has detailed, I think you have a very real problem with conflict of interest. I'm stunned, quite frankly, that you didn't resign your Florence Park post when you got this job. That was, in my opinion, a boneheaded oversight that could and may have compromised your integrity for the TMAPC job.

If you were indeed making enemies with certain people (a big if), you hand-delivered the instrument to your demise. If you weren't, staying on as Florence Park president after getting on at TMAPC at least calls your judgment into question.

And FYI, inteller isn't the most credible poster on this forum. Just sayin'.

wow, integrity and TMAPC in the same sentence....I never thought I'd see that.

You want to see rude?  Why don't you go to one of these meetings some time and see how homeowners rights are trampled to the ground in favor of horrible developments, EVERY OTHER WEEK OF THE MONTH!  It takes the most outlandish proposals, like a baby sodomy factory, to not get passed by this body (and they'd probably even approve that if they amended to reduce the entrances from 5 to 4)...!  Rude is a GOB system where they make all the rules, then remake them if it doesn't suit their latest development scheme.  PUDs?  Best way to get around those pesky zoning ordinances....and if they agree to a PUD today that doesn't suit them 10 years from now, no problem, just vacate the PUD and go back to straight zoning!  Forget what assumptions the neighbors think...it is bait and switch time!

Wright's comments are "rude" because they are comments and questions that developers and their patsies and INCOG don't want to hear.  They don't want to hear that they haven't done their job properly.  They don't want to hear that their final plats aren't complete (even though they should be before approval).  They don't want to hear that they are not abiding by codes (both international and local).  I'm sure all of that is very "rude" to them because it upsets their little system.  

And you attack my credibility? You don't even know me.  FCK YOU.  Just sayin'

I wrote the following after being interviewed by the Tulsa World. I hope it further clarifies some issues. It is long so I need to do it in two parts. I don't mind answering questions. I don't mind repeating myself. I can't always spot a red herring but I do a fair job. Note the emphasis placed on the conflict of interest by some of the posters. That is a red herring. While the debate continues on whether I should or should not have resigned allow me to once again draw your attention to some relevant facts: 1. The matter was discussed at the relevant time with Chairman Chip Ard (come to think of it I may have also spoken with Pat Boulden,
TMAPC counsel); and 2. The event happened prior to Keith.

Something else occurred to me. Keith is receiving her advice from Simonson, former chair of the Republican Party. Are his motives suspect?

And now, for the essay and the source of the comment "she is so rude".

On Friday, October 30th, Kevin Canfield of the Tulsa World called for a comment due to my being listed as a Board of County Commissioners' agenda item on Monday, November 2. As this was the first I knew of the event I promptly invited Kevin to my office for an interview. In an effort for full disclosure I am electing to make a statement as the story is far too long (and honestly not that interesting) for the newspaper to print.

To date, I do not know the real reason why Karen Keith is choosing to replace me before my term expires in 13 months. This is what I do know.

On June 24th, at the TMAPC work session, Bill Leighty chose to place on the agenda a discussion of how TMAPC handled PUD-769.  A PUD that the TMAPC previously passed with modifications to the plan. The developer was in the audience and agreed to the modifications. Located at 81st and Yale, a developer intended to build an office complex abutting the edge of the reservoir at the Holland Lakes residential subdivision on a property with a steep incline. To reduce the privacy invasion of the office complex, Phil Marshall included a provision that the windows closest to the residential property owners be translucent. Before the PUD went before the City Council the developer withdrew the PUD and claimed that the provisions were a hindrance.   After the TMAPC had passed the PUD, but before the PUD was withdrawn I attended a Holland Lakes Home Owners Association Meeting at their request. I fielded questions concerning the best way to present their concerns to the City Council. The HOA had previously invited all of the TMAPC commissioners to visit the site. A previous development had caused $30,000 of damage to the reservoir which the HOA had to pay. They did not want to suffer such a financial hardship again.

So on June 24th, Leighty wanted to discuss how the TMAPC was hindering development in Tulsa. Because this was on the agenda during the Work session rather than during Commissioner's comments, the discussion was not recorded. At some point during the discussion Joe Westervelt, former TMAPC commissioner and chair, beckoned from the audience that he wanted to be recognized. At no time during the Public Hearing of PUD-769 or throughout the several continuances was Joe Westervelt ever present. For reasons unbeknownst to me, the Chair, Michelle Cantrell recognized Westervelt. He proceeded to speak for several minutes. I called point of order. No one from the Holland Lakes HOA was present nor would they have been contacted as this was on the work session. The type of discussion was one that the Holland Lakes residents should have had there to represent themselves.

Westervelt proceeded to tell the TMAPC how to do its job which included comments about my family. Yes, about my family. He proceeded to verbally berate me. I have several witnesses to this event other than the TMAPC commissioners or the INCOG staff.

Westervelt told the TMAPC that we needed to monitor ourselves as ethics charges should be filed against me for working against the developers in cahoots with the Holland Lakes residents. He stated he would file the charges himself but that he had respect for my family.

A point of interest – Karen Keith was not at the meeting. Remember the meeting was not recorded.

The work session continued with the other items on the agenda without incidence. Outside, after the meeting, I asked Michelle what in the world was all that about (referring to Westervelt) – she claimed she didn't know what he was going to speak about. Then why recognize him? She mumbled something about his being a former Commissioner. I might add, Work sessions are reserved for material to be presented to the TMAPC. The Preservation Commission, the Sign Advisory or staff may make a presentation regarding an item that the TMAPC would hear eventually. Recently our Work sessions have been forum for PlaniTulsa updates.

I left the meeting, picked up my son and met my parents for dinner. During dinner I told them about the brutish treatment by Westervelt. Late Wednesday night or Thursday morning I checked my answering machine and there was a message from Ella, Karen Keiths' secretary, it was time stamped after 5 pm.  Ella stated that Karen Keith expected to see me in her office the following Monday at 1:30 pm. It was not a request, it was a demand. Well, I was not available at 1:30 on Monday. I work for a living. Thus began a series of e-mails and phone calls between Ella and I to arrange a time for this meeting. The last email (or phone call) ended with Ella stating she would get back to me and she did not. During these transactions I was never made aware of the subjects to be discussed with Keith.

However there were other clues. On June 25th my parents were out to dinner when Keith approached them at their table and said she was sorry she would have to unappoint their daughter as she (Liz Wright) is rude.  Upon returning home that night, Joe Westervelt had left a message for my father. On
Friday my parents let me know of both these events. Yes, if you have followed the story thus far – Karen Keith and Joe Westervelt decided to speak with my parents rather than me. I am now 52. Please draw your own conclusions.

Over the course of the next several weeks much muttering happened among the various neighborhood groups. I do not know who spoke to whom for the most part. Comments floated back to me. People called Karen Keith – that I do know. I was told that Karen Keith had contacted all of the TMAPC commissioners to see how they felt about her removing me. Remember she has yet to speak with me. In fact, I was quite beginning to feel like the spouse who is the last to know. Imagine the dilemma I went through getting ready for yet another TMAPC meeting knowing I was walking into a meeting where everyone now knows that Karen Keith wants to unappoint me – everyone but me, officially.

Now we get to the impetus of why I ran for city council.

Yes, I do feel I would do a good job on the council. In fact a really great job because I am not, repeat not at the whim of a puppet master. While I strongly believe in seeking counsel from a variety of sources to gain insight and perspective, I have a wonderful sense of self-determination. Thank you mom and dad for that. I am in short, my own gal. So after a mocha and a new pair of shoes (okay 5 new pairs they were on sale) – I called a Private Investigator. I got an earful. In fact, after telling him the story he said he wanted to live to see tomorrow. These people – well – can hurt people. So he referred me to another PI. Along the way I was informed that my phone lines were most likely tapped, and that I was probably being followed. That made my day. So I spoke to lawyers. Found out that the town of Tulsa is fairly inbred (really Sherlock?) and that a lawyer would probably need to come in from another city. Why is that – well so the lawyers business wouldn't magically all disappear. Apparently it has happened. Apparently enough to keep the lawyers a little skittish. But I did find out there were constitutional questions at stake and that if I could find a lawyer to handle the case it would not cost me any money because the net result would be large.

By now the Fourth of July has come and gone and we are into the second week of July. On July 11th I was speaking with someone from Maria Barnes Team. I remember the conversation clearly because it is the sort of conversation that makes time stand still and everything become crystal clear. She asked me what was to keep me from resigning. After all it would be important not to have anything embarrassing for Maria. Now you might ask how does Karen Keith and Maria tie in together. Well, remember Karen Keith called all the TMAPC commissioners – that includes Michelle Cantrell. The same Cantrell that is Maria Barnes' right hand. I was told previously that Cantrell didn't have a problem with my removal. Cantrell who is an operative in the Barnes campaign doesn't have a problem with Liz Wright being removed. The same Liz Wright who is viewed as the neighborhood advocate for planning. The Team Maria person suggested I resign so that this embarrassing little fact would not come out during the Formal Hearing Keith would have to do to remove me. Which it would, which it will when all of the TMAPC commissioners will have to make a statement about their conversations with Karen Keith.

In my world, there is a difference between watching someone's back and covering someone's bottom. It did not take much time in corporate America for me to have a strong distaste for covering for my bosses screw-ups. And there were already too many unappetizing items on the Maria scorecard. Not going to do it – nope.

Between the spooky vibes of the PI's and the lawyers and a request to cover Maria Barnes "issues", I decided to get into the public eye by running for city council. Initially I jumped in to get away from the Keith saga; however within a few days and many comments of support I began to take my contest quite seriously. In fact, I took stock of myself and realized that I am very qualified to be a city councilor. Starting from scratch I pulled together a campaign during a really lousy time of the year and did quite respectfully. I got noticed, I got calls, I got requests to run for everything that a person could run for except for dog catcher. 

From the time I filed until – I think it was the end of September – I did not hear one peep from Karen Keith. She rarely the TMAPC meetings so I don't see her. One afternoon – think it was October 6, Keith called and without much prelude suggests that I view this as an opportunity for other parts of Tulsa to have representation and resign. Did I mention the no prelude? I told Keith I could not talk then as I was looking straight into the face of my client. I told her I could call her back after I was done for the day – about 10 pm. She said why don't you call in the morning. Said I would try but I was pretty busy the next two days (Oct 7th an 11 am TMAPC meeting and on Oct 8th a doctors appointment and a TPC meeting). I might mentioned that as a self-employed individual my work day begins from about 11 am – 2 pm and ends somewhere between 10 pm & midnight 5-6 days a week. I also have a darling son who has to be at school before I am fully awake.

I began receiving emails from Terry Simonson, I suppose he was acting as her administrative assistant. He was earnestly attempting to set up a meeting between Keith, himself and I and also solictating my resignation letter. A meeting was set up for October 22. Remember I still don't know why I should resign. Well, other than to allow other parts of Tulsa better representation.

Karen did call on Wednesday October 21. I had called in sick for that day's TMAPC meeting and was hoping to go home to bed.  I had stopped by the office after taking my son to school and just  happened to be in when she called. She stated that she had read the emails between Terry and I and did not see a reason to meet on the 22nd since I had not agreed to resign. I told her there was a process for removal. She assured me that they had "crossed all their t's and dotted all their i's". The conversation ended. No other contact has been made. Not until Kevin Canfield called was I made aware that I was placed on the agenda. 

Part 2

Kevin asked several times why did Keith want to replace me. I really don't know. I can speculate but that is about it.

I was appointed by Randi Miller near the end of her term. She told me she wanted a female, a Democrat and a neighborhood person and I fit the bill. She found me at a Florence Park Neighborhood Association meeting that I, as President, was conducting. I sent her my resume, she interviewed me, asked if I wanted the position and then the county appointed me to replace Wes Harmon. I began April 16, 2008 and my term expires January 2011. She was an agreeable chum – she made me laugh. Other than a couple of lunches where we laughed like school girls, an Environmental event at the Drillers Stadium and a lunch that included Terry Simonson I didn't have much contact with Randi.  I was never asked to do her bidding. Our relationship was congenial and friendly – more about laughing than anything else. I do miss her. The only thing political she told me was that Bob Dick, in a parting remark said he was going to get her. She pointed to Karen Keith's website to indicate Dick was promoting Keith. She said it was about the river – the bridge. A development saga I know next to nothing about, other than it was contentious. 

I haven't spoken to Randi since just after her election. But I wondered out loud to Kevin yesterday if maybe Randi wanted a female Democrat because maybe she knew she would not be re-elected and thought Keith would support me on the TMAPC. Keith, although she criticized Randi for not attending TMAPC meetings, where the County has an ex-officio position, has herself not attended. Instead she, or the county hired Mark Liotta to serve in her stead. Keith has only appeared occasionally.

Keith and Simonson both alluded to other parts of Tulsa having representation. I contend that the City Council has more to do with the mid town concentration. The County appoints three commissioners, each from the three districts. District 1 represented by John Smaligo, has continued to re-appoint Gail Carnes, Republican,  for 20+ years. District 1 is represents north Tulsa city and county. Carnes works on or near Admiral and lives in south Tulsa. District 3 is represented by Fred Perry. Gary Sparks, an archetictect, resigned within the last year. He lived in south Tulsa. Perry appointed John Dix, Republican, a retired QT real estate acquistioner, who lives in Collinsville. Not sure how that represents south Tulsa. District 2 includes midtown and west Tulsa. I live and work in Florence Park (15th and Harvard area) and travel to west Tulsa daily. Furthermore, my family's business was at 41st and Maybelle Ave. for many years. I am a Democrat, and a small business owner for 7 years, after teaching Physics at TU for several years. I replaced Wes Harmon who sat on the TMAPC from April 1998 until April 2008.

The rest of the commissioners are appointed by the Mayor and confirmed by the City Council.
Presently on the TMAPC – Keith McArtor, Democrat – Lawyer lives in Riverview, works Downtown. Michelle Cantrell, Democrat – housewife, volunteer for Maria Barnes campaign, lives in North Maple Ridge; Josh Walker, Republican, commercial real estate, lives off 31st and Peoria; Phil Marshall, Democrat, semi-retired residential developer, lives in Brookside; Bill Lighty, Republican, residential real estate, lives in Florence Park ( Lighty replaced Chip Ard, commercial real estate); and last but not least – John Shivel, party unknown, retired military. Interesting connection is that his wife owns the land that is involved with the contentious Jenks bridge.   

I contested the make-up of the TMAPC at a meeting many moons ago. The developer and real estate interests are over represented. Mid-town is over represented. The status quo ideology appears to be that the TMAPC needs people who know about real estate. Neither real estate nor developers need a formal education, and land flux and flow could be determined in numerous other ways. What we don't have on the TMAPC is a neutral planner, (yes there are planners on staff through Incog), an environmentalist, social-economist, or any other profession that would actually be helpful to a planning commission in considering many of the complex issues that are presented. Economic feasibility studies would make sense. Impact studies would make sense. Requesting substantiaed sources of funding would make sense. Especially in situations like Bomsada (Enclave on Brookside) where many people were displaced due to a proposed large scale apartment complex that presently is sitting vacant. Yes, the economy went south and it will no doubt be years before it is economically feasible for Bomsada to be built. And in the meantime, people could still be living in the apartments that were torn down.

In fact, offices, apartments, and homes could still be rented at 14th and Utica. John Baumgarder purchased the land and demolished all the buildings to accommodate a 10-11 story office building. We now have an unofficial green space. An interesting side note is that Karen Keith had her campaign office in one of Baumgarders' buildings – at below market rent. 

I digress.

Representation. Many of the areas that Simonson stated needed representation have their own planning commissions. West Tulsa had Wes Harmon for 10 years. Mid town has not had a county representative in years.

So this claim – about better representation – is probably directed to City Council.  The question remains why Keith would use dwindling resources to stage a public hearing to remove an appointment now. The TMAPC is reducing meetings to twice a month due to general budget issues and the fact that the applications are not there. In other words, business is down. The only thing that I am aware of – of any significance is the comprehensive plan. Public hearings for the new comprehensive plan will begin in January. Along with the strategic portion will be the recommendations regarding the fate of the TMAPC. Then, the work on the zoning code itself begins. I am often one lone vote on the TMAPC in an attempt to support the concerns of property owners, the residents, the citizens of the city.

The public hearing for my removal will be November 23, conveniently right before Thanksgiving, if it is approved on Monday. 

I have been so honored and fortunate to serve as Commissioner. I have learned so much. The way a city plans determines its economic growth. I heard the phrase recently that without ardent effort, our city's core will continue to decline into the doughnut indicative of a city's demise. That core is downtown. A city is judged by its downtown. Downtown is the front door, the surrounding areas the walkway, and the lawn. Without planning that embraces all, respects all – well we get what we are willing to settle for.

Over the course of my time on the TMAPC I've been chewed up and spat out more times than I can count. I can remember slumping into my office wondering why I do this week after week and without fail I would get a call from a resident of Tulsa saying thank you. Big, giant, wonderful thank-yous. I truly wouldn't know what I had done to deserve the thank you – random calls from people who had watched TGOV – who said I fought for the little guy. They kept me going.

I don't take any of this personally. Karen Keith doesn't know me. I don't know her. The only connection I have with her is that she is married to the elder brother of a friend of mine who passed away fairly recently. My father knows of her through Rotary. As the cliché goes – its politics. That sublime retort isn't enough for me – whose politics is my question. One of my most near and dear courses in college was constitutional law. I had hopes of going into law during my pre-law studies at OU until I had one too many lawyers as instructors and one too many lectures justifying why lawyers can charge what they do. I saw friends go on to law school that wanted to make the world a better place (after all it was the '70's) and within a year were calculating their net incomes. I got involved with politics at the local level in Norman during those years, was an alternated delegate at the state convention (maybe district level – I don't remember). Saw far too many hooligans and misbehaviors. I retreated into the relatively safe world of engineering physics. Time space continuums are truly much cozier than the messy world of people at times.

I never forgot what constitutional law taught me. Nor do I take our rights for granted. However, I do understand and respect the complacency which is chosen by some. That is another essay for another day. Within politics we find master manipulators. We find very small fish that are under the delusion they are big fish – their pond vision is so small. But we are all very small fish in a very large pond. We can make a difference – be it good or not so good. But ultimately we have to look at ourselves in the morning and answer to our loved ones along the way. It isn't the problems – it is the way we handle them that marks maturity – that show we have evolved.  Never a perfect path, full of fits and starts, but always, always worth it. 

No doubt I will be removed. Keith has county resources to appoint her friends wherever she so chooses and the political advice to guide her. I do hope questions can be raised concerning representations that matter, really matter to the citizens of Tulsa. I hope term limits will be discussed. I hope that since this will be setting precedence as to what determines grounds for removal we get clear statements. I am subject to the ethics which govern state officials. Simonson told me that those grounds were not clear. Odd, but that is what he said.

I do want to take the moment to thank whole heartedly the staff at INCOG. If being a commissioner is thankless, then I am not sure what to say about the staff. They deserve accolades. I noticed the details although I didn't make verbal note – so to all of the staff thank you.

Quote from: inteller on November 08, 2009, 10:48:58 PM

And you attack my credibility? You don't even know me.  FCK YOU.  Just sayin'

You've made plenty of intemperate and stupid comments on this forum, not including "FCK YOU" just now.

I stand by what I said.

is a county public hearing open for anyone to speak or is it more like a legal proceding where you present your witnesses and they present theirs?  and are they televised?  great insight on the work sessions.  i always knew thats where there underhanded dealings took place out of sight from television.

I think having a educated, well informed, inquisitive citizen, like Elizabeth Wright, on the TAMPC, and willing to ask questions, is a public servant representing all of Tulsa.  What can we do as citizens to ensure that all the members of the TAMPC feel free to question zoning changes without ramifications?  How does one go about filing a complaint on a county commissioner?

Quote from: janiedoll on November 11, 2009, 11:19:57 PM
I think having a educated, well informed, inquisitive citizen, like Elizabeth Wright, on the TAMPC, and willing to ask questions, is a public servant representing all of Tulsa.  What can we do as citizens to ensure that all the members of the TAMPC feel free to question zoning changes without ramifications?  How does one go about filing a complaint on a county commissioner?

I encourage people in office like TMAPC members to ask questions and dig into issues. I am not okay with a member of any board publicly speaking in direct opposition to the board's ruling. It undermine's the board as a whole and is disrespectful to your fellow board members.

Quote from: janiedoll on November 11, 2009, 11:19:57 PM
I think having a educated, well informed, inquisitive citizen, like Elizabeth Wright, on the TAMPC, and willing to ask questions, is a public servant representing all of Tulsa.  What can we do as citizens to ensure that all the members of the TAMPC feel free to question zoning changes without ramifications?  How does one go about filing a complaint on a county commissioner?

That would be at your local polling station

Quote from: inteller on November 09, 2009, 07:55:35 AM
is a county public hearing open for anyone to speak or is it more like a legal proceding where you present your witnesses and they present theirs?  and are they televised?  great insight on the work sessions.  i always knew thats where there underhanded dealings took place out of sight from television.

First -- A giant Thank you to all who have called and emailed support and questions.

Re the county public hearing - I am assuming it is like the TMAPC hearing where people may speak for 3-5 minutes. The fun part about this process - what I have discovered thus far is that:
1. The county meetings are not televised. I am not even sure if they are recorded for the public at all.
2. There is no oversight of the county commissioners. Complaints against the county commissioners go thru the DA and guess who the DA works for? The county commissioners. So they are the courtroom, judge and jury.

3. What this means - Keith could have said she doesn't like my hair color and since she gets to make the charge and judge the charge... Hopefully you get the picture, see the ineptness of the system and understand why it didn't matter that there was a huge uproar over Bell's and it just didn't matter. The county wanted the land, they got the land.

The cost was Randi Miller being voted out of office - that was the only way for citizens to have oversight. By then, Bell's was gone and we have a huge parking lot. Oh and the water park - recall it seem to skirt the same scrutiny Bells went through.

The only way, the only way - I cannot emphasize this enough to make any changes to the economic stranglehold is to put pressure on the elected officials. Remember all three vote on issues regardless of where those issues are located.

Here are the county commissioner information:

District 1: John Smaligo, jsmaligo@tulsacounty.org, (918) 596-5020
District 2: Karen Keith, kkeith@tulsacounty.org, (918) 596-5016
District 3: Fred Perry, fperry@tulsacounty.org, (918) 596-5010

That is all for now --

Thank you

Liz Wright

Quote from: sgrizzle on November 12, 2009, 07:58:18 AM
I encourage people in office like TMAPC members to ask questions and dig into issues. I am not okay with a member of any board publicly speaking in direct opposition to the board's ruling. It undermine's the board as a whole and is disrespectful to your fellow board members.

well dude you can call it whatever you want, but it is her RIGHT as a private citizen to do so.  and let's not even talk about the other board members and disrespect.

I personally spoke with Ms. Miller during the Bell's affair and was assured that it wasn't going to be "just a parking lot".  While it appears to be just a parking lot a few years later, I'm sure it is really something else.   :-\

Quote from: sgrizzle on November 12, 2009, 07:58:18 AM
I encourage people in office like TMAPC members to ask questions and dig into issues. I am not okay with a member of any board publicly speaking in direct opposition to the board's ruling. It undermine's the board as a whole and is disrespectful to your fellow board members.

Quick reply -
Scott - I haven't written about speaking before the City Council yet. Had to do with John Baumgarder doing a private covenant so as to avoid doing a PUD at 14th and Utica. His reason? He didn't want to. That was it. He claimed an urgent need to get this Office zoned so as to seal the deal with some elusive client. As you can see - timeliness was not an issue. Making a private citizen covenant opens a pandora box of issues. Beginning with - there is no one to enforce it. The reason why it was given? This gets interesting - not one, not two, but more than three individuals state that they saw the Baumgarder representatives texting to a TMAPC commissioner during the hearing. The covenant was actually suggested by that commissioner.

Sticky deal wouldn't you say.

The whole private covenant was motioned and so quickly voted on that several of us were spinning our heads "what was that?".

I spoke with John Eagleton about the matter. I went to the Tuesday morning meeting and spoke - I clearly stated I was speaking as a private citizen and was concerned about the possible legal ramifications. I spoke at the Thursday night meeting, again as a private citizen.

Legal for Baumgarders development was (and probably still is Roy Johnson) - given the glares and the sparks I received I pretty much think he was not a happy camper.

The outcome - The TMAPC spent weeks, months updating and amending the TMAPC Ethics code. The last time was ... a long time ago, maybe 1999 or '04. I'd have to go back and look. So obvioulsy I irritated a few folks with stating the obvious.
The new code violates First Amendment rights. Any citizen, any citizen has the right to speak before the City Council.

It is very easy to make assumptions about what happens when one doesn't attend regularly and doesn't have a glimmer of the innerworkings. I am trying to shed light on the process.

Fortunately, the TMAPC has a wonderful, wonderful person do a fantastic job on our minutes. Contrast to the City Council minutes and literally no information is provided regarding the discussions. Whereas the TMAPC gives who and what was said, the City Council provides who showed up and what the vote was.

I must go. Hope that helps to clarify things a little.

Liz Wright

Quote from: inteller on November 12, 2009, 10:04:12 AM
well dude you can call it whatever you want, but it is her RIGHT as a private citizen to do so.  and let's not even talk about the other board members and disrespect.

Okay --

I do want to make this very clear -- I support the concept of TMAPC, I support the INCOG and its five functions. If there are systemic problems within the relationship between the institutions and the city and the citizens, that does not mean we throw out the baby with the bathwater. Have there been wrongs? Yes. Has there been a long history of commissioners using their position to further real estate and development deals? Yes. Can that be corrected? Yes. We start by not appointing people who make a living off real estate and development. It took years for Houston to get the RE and development cartel out of their city government.

I am a very proud member of the TMAPC. Please do not ever think otherwise. Ever.

However, every institution, every concept, every ideal should withstand scrutiny. I like questions, I like critical pursuit. That which is weak and ineffective will fall away.

Test the institutions that represent you - else, well you get inflexible, non-representative government. That which runs from questions ususally is hiding something. Something not good. 

I am now officially late -

Cheer -
Liz Wright

Quote from: Liz Wright on November 12, 2009, 10:16:56 AM
Quick reply -
Scott - I haven't written about speaking before the City Council yet. Had to do with John Baumgarder doing a private covenant so as to avoid doing a PUD at 14th and Utica. His reason? He didn't want to. That was it. He claimed an urgent need to get this Office zoned so as to seal the deal with some elusive client.

That's Bumgarner's modus operandi.  Everything has to be done quickly (and under the table if need be).  The outgoing queen adopted many of his techniques to push smile through city council as urgent.

Liz, thank you for speaking out and clarifying what has gone on.  It's been an interesting look at the underbelly of our planning commission and seems to confirm what a lot of people have rumored for years.

Quote from: Conan71 on November 12, 2009, 12:36:49 PM
Liz, thank you for speaking out and clarifying what has gone on.  It's been an interesting look at the underbelly of our planning commission and seems to confirm what a lot of people have rumored for years.

More than welcome -

Now - it is time to get the word out. It truly is time for people to learn about the role of not only the TMAPC but all the authorities, boards and commissions. Several literally have this city by the throat economically.

I am definately looking at getting the boot in a very positive fashion - I get to speak out now!

Liz

 Looks like you pushed Bone's buttons. Bone's always gets what he wants....and is one smart manipulator.

The devil thought you got "Boned" until he was reminded to "stay classy."

Quote from: FOTD on November 12, 2009, 03:11:22 PM
Looks like you pushed Bone's buttons. Bone's always gets what he wants....and is one smart manipulator.

The devil thought you got "Boned" until he was reminded to "stay classy."

there is nothing "smart" about common thuggery.

Quote from: inteller on November 12, 2009, 05:35:11 PM
there is nothing "smart" about common thuggery.

Love it. YES! But you have to admit his projects improve Tulsa.

Quote from: FOTD on November 12, 2009, 06:53:18 PM
Love it. YES! But you have to admit his projects improve Tulsa.

prairie style roof pitches with EIFS don't improve tulsa.  italianate dreck doesn't improve tulsa.  more targets dont improve tulsa.

owning a rubber stamp commission doesn't improve tulsa.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20091123_11_0_Aftera471842

one allegation down two more bogus allegations to go!

Quote from: inteller on November 12, 2009, 10:31:26 PM
prairie style roof pitches with EIFS don't improve tulsa.  italianate dreck doesn't improve tulsa.  more targets dont improve tulsa.

owning a rubber stamp commission doesn't improve tulsa.

Still upset over that Target aren't you?

But here you are wrong, Super Target helps Tulsa's sales tax base and was badly needed. If that store had been built in across the street in Bixby Tulsa would be in that much worse shape.

Quote from: jne on November 23, 2009, 01:43:12 PM
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20091123_11_0_Aftera471842

Seems like the Whirled moved the story back
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=16&articleid=20091124_16_A9_Apubli297440
and started using unflattering mugshots.
Maybe things arent going as planned, public opinion-wise ?

Quote from: swake on November 24, 2009, 09:10:09 AM
Still upset over that Target aren't you?

But here you are wrong, Super Target helps Tulsa's sales tax base and was badly needed. If that store had been built in across the street in Bixby Tulsa would be in that much worse shape.

Next one is going in next to your place.  Big parking lot complete with all night lighting. Back wall and dumpsters facing you.  Beautiful loading docks will be your primary view. Enjoy.

I have every confidence that Bixby could have lost the opportunity for the Target just as they lost the opportunity for the WalMart before they built at 91st & Memorial.  (The building WM left after they built the new one at 111th & Memorial.)

Quote from: Red Arrow on November 24, 2009, 11:57:57 AM
Next one is going in next to your place.  Big parking lot complete with all night lighting. Back wall and dumpsters facing you.  Beautiful loading docks will be your primary view. Enjoy.

I have every confidence that Bixby could have lost the opportunity for the Target just as they lost the opportunity for the WalMart before they built at 91st & Memorial.  (The building WM left after they built the new one at 111th & Memorial.)

Buy a house on the back-side of a strip of undeveloped land at one of the growing intersections in Tulsa then be pissed off a big box store was built?  I'm sorry but that resonates as well with me as people who bought a house in a new development near Love Field in Dallas about ten years ago then complained about all the noise.

Inteller's points on development are well-taken, but who in their right mind would have moved into that neighborhood and expect that piece of choice commercial land would not be developed the way that it was?

Quote from: Conan71 on November 24, 2009, 01:18:45 PM
Buy a house on the back-side of a strip of undeveloped land at one of the growing intersections in Tulsa then be pissed off a big box store was built?  I'm sorry but that resonates as well with me as people who bought a house in a new development near Love Field in Dallas about ten years ago then complained about all the noise.

Inteller's points on development are well-taken, but who in their right mind would have moved into that neighborhood and expect that piece of choice commercial land would not be developed the way that it was?

It's why the house that backed to that empty lot was $20k less than one just like it across the street.

Quote from: Red Arrow on November 24, 2009, 11:57:57 AM
(The building WM left after they built the new one at 111th & Memorial.)

Which is also in Tulsa.

FYI, inteller's house never backed to Target, but he was close.

Nice neighborhood association.. lot of people really excited about one store.

Quote from: sgrizzle on November 24, 2009, 01:52:22 PM
Which is also in Tulsa.

FYI, inteller's house never backed to Target, but he was close.

Nice neighborhood association.. lot of people really excited about one store.

WTH were they expecting was going to get built on that lot, anyhow?

Quote from: Conan71 on November 24, 2009, 02:28:57 PM
WTH were they expecting was going to get built on that lot, anyhow?

Really. People who buy adjacent to vacant lots are just waiting in limbo before clutter, noise, visibility etc. adversely effect their lives.

The really strange part is that the Target is a lot nicer and more of a benefit to the area than the car lots all around the store and much nicer than the ratty fireworks stand/Christmas tree lot across the street in Bixby. Target is just about as good as the area could have hoped for, the lot very easily could have ended up as  multi-story multi-family housing over looking their back yards or yet another car lot.

A few years ago the Target corner was going to be somewhat like Utica Square.  I don't know if I prefer Target over another car lot or not, at least a new car dealer.  The Target will be generating a lot more traffic than a car lot would. I don't know about the sales tax difference either but if any of you have had any auto work done a dealer lately you might think it would be close. Then there is the "Tax Tag and Title" of buying a car.  I can't say I would want any high density housing either since the ONLY way to get somewhere from there is by car.  Might as well plan on an 8 lane Memorial now so it will only be 20 years late when it gets put in.

As some of you have said, it is difficult to have much sympathy for someone buying a lot as described.

All you folks from downtown and mid-town that complain about street improvements in the south remember where your sales tax money is generated.

Quote from: Red Arrow on November 24, 2009, 04:25:01 PM
A few years ago the Target corner was going to be somewhat like Utica Square.  I don't know if I prefer Target over another car lot or not, at least a new car dealer.  The Target will be generating a lot more traffic than a car lot would. I don't know about the sales tax difference either but if any of you have had any auto work done a dealer lately you might think it would be close. Then there is the "Tax Tag and Title" of buying a car.  I can't say I would want any high density housing either since the ONLY way to get somewhere from there is by car.  Might as well plan on an 8 lane Memorial now so it will only be 20 years late when it gets put in.

As some of you have said, it is difficult to have much sympathy for someone buying a lot as described.

All you folks from downtown and mid-town that complain about street improvements in the south remember where your sales tax money is generated.

Whoa.  Considering that I use very little in terms of public infrastructure with my little footprint I'm pretty confident that 'my' sales tax money is generated right around me.  I don't commute all over this City.  I don't really need five lane arterials extended out across our metro nor do I need water and sewer lines extending out across greenfields to serve some isolated residential subdivision.

Quote from: OurTulsa on November 24, 2009, 05:06:15 PM
Whoa.  Considering that I use very little in terms of public infrastructure with my little footprint I'm pretty confident that 'my' sales tax money is generated right around me.  I don't commute all over this City.  I don't really need five lane arterials extended out across our metro nor do I need water and sewer lines extending out across greenfields to serve some isolated residential subdivision.

Yes, and there is 6 ft of sidewalk paved by your efforts. Your neighbors driving to Owasso to shop because "71st is icky" provide the potholes around it.

Quote from: OurTulsa on November 24, 2009, 05:06:15 PM
... to serve some isolated residential subdivision.

You live in the past even more than I do. It's obvious you stay in your own little part of town.  Ever get out of Tulsa?  Out of Oklahoma?  It's similar to "ever get out of the small town USA of your choice? 30 years ago S.E. Tulsa may have been the boonies but not any more.  FYI, some of the newer developments are more dense than some of mid-town.  Check it out yourself on Google maps. What's missing, of course, are the mom and pop shops like existed along Cherry street and the original (real) trolley lines.  The strip centers of the 1960s - 90s are the attempted replacements.

Quote from: Conan71 on November 24, 2009, 02:28:57 PM
WTH were they expecting was going to get built on that lot, anyhow?

South Town Square, the huge sign that advertised a MUCH MUCH less intense development than what is there now.  Many people made their decision to move there based on this long standing advertisement.  

Typical developer bait and switch, all facilitated by this rubber stamping board, who now clamor together to oust one person who is asking the tough (but legitimate) questions to developers.

Another bait and switch was perpetrated at Sonoma grande, but Highland Park is suing their asses, not for what got built, but how it was built and the problems it has caused after the fact....

...again, facilitated by this circus act of a commission.


and now the gang of 3 county commissioners are going to keep postponing this decision until the support behind wright subsides and everyone is busy with typical activities around the holidays.  For instance, I can't make next weeks meeting after taking time off for this one.  They know they can win this war of attrition, hell it is what the TMAPC does any time there is strong neighborhood resistance....just keep putting it off until the neighbors can't keep coming.

Quote from: inteller on November 24, 2009, 10:36:10 PM
South Town Square, the huge sign that advertised a MUCH MUCH less intense development than what is there now.  Many people made their decision to move there based on this long standing advertisement.  

Did you bother to get that written into your contract?  You should know the vagaries of development and that just because one thing is promised, doesn't mean it will work out that way if they haven't even pushed dirt yet. 

I'd be totally empathetic with if, say, they came in an bulldozed a housing development and built a major commercial complex.

You chose to buy or build in a high traffic, rapidly-developing area, with even more traffic and development coming on a weekly or monthly basis.  You can't possibly believe this couldn't have been a possibility to happen, especially with the population, demographics, and daily car count.

Quote from: inteller on November 24, 2009, 10:36:10 PM
South Town Square, the huge sign that advertised a MUCH MUCH less intense development than what is there now.  Many people made their decision to move there based on this long standing advertisement.  

People also buy beer because it attracts bikini models to their backyard soiree's too. Just think of how many people went out to get herpes for the free Jeep and Kayak?

Quote from: sgrizzle on November 25, 2009, 07:25:15 AM
People also buy beer because it attracts bikini models to their backyard soiree's too. Just think of how many people went out to get herpes for the free Jeep and Kayak?

Post of the week!!! Your creativity leaves me speechless at times.

and the group think smartass comments lower the intelligence of this thread.  this thread is a perfect example of worthy cause ruined by the majority of the so called banner carriers of tulsanow.

Quote from: inteller on November 25, 2009, 11:46:28 AM
and the group think smartass comments lower the intelligence of this thread.  this thread is a perfect example of worthy cause ruined by the majority of the so called banner carriers of tulsanow.

hooo boy....

::)

Quote from: inteller on November 25, 2009, 11:46:28 AM
and the group think smartass comments lower the intelligence of this thread.  this thread is a perfect example of worthy cause ruined by the majority of the so called banner carriers of tulsanow.

so says the TN all-time king of smart donkey comments.

keep proving my point....i see more of your peanut gallery has decided to come in and ruin the thread.

You're the one who chose non-sequiturs instead of addressing the fact you moved in behind an empty lot then got pissed off and figure you are owed something because a big box store was built behind your neighborhood.  Sheesh, get over it or move.

that has nothing to fu cking do with the topic of this thread.

...keep proving my point....or add something of value to the thread....if you are capable.

W T F happen to Groove Crusher aka Spartacuss aka Cannon Fodder?

He'd set this thread straight.

doubtful, but probably a better chance than what the groupthink section has offered so far.

I haven't completely followed the ruckus over this appointment, so forgive me if I miss some of the points. In the spirit of declaring a conflict...I gave Liz Wright a small campaign contribution.

Did she fail to recuse herself on a vote regarding a property in the area where she was also President of the homeowner's association? This is what I heard.

If this is true, it doesn't matter who appointed her or how good a commissioner she is in my book. I would be disappointed to lose such a good commissioner, but this seems to be a fatal flaw.

Can someone shed some more light on this matter?

read the minutes linked at the outset of this thread and come to your own conclusion.

I read them all and came to the conclusion that it doesn't matter if she was the POTUS, she was asking very legitimate questions (regarding handicap spaces) that the developer refused to answer and instead raised accusations of her conflict of interest.  If it is a conflict of interest to look out for the handicapped then I'd say we are doomed as a city.  Bottom line is she stood no financial benefit ....and there is no perception of conflict simply because of her title at the HOA.  You could go draw some loose association with any of the commissioners and something they voted on....that doesn't mean there is a conflict of interest (percieved or otherwise).  Plus perception is a moving target and often times one of individual opinion.  Also, none of her actions affected the outcome of the vote (since she is in the minority vote most of the time anyways)

Then the next question that naturally arises is, if this was such a big deal then why didn't the county commissioners address it sometime LAST YEAR?  Or even so, why didn't Karen Ketih address it DAY ONE of taking office, instead of waiting months after being in office?  The groupthink captiulators will offer up the lame excuse that the commissioners can't be aware of all happenings at TMAPC, to which I say THAT'S THEIR JOB!  

Liz Wright should finish her term.  Developers should feel uncomfortable answering the hard questions until she is gone.  TMAPC is going away anyways so Keith would do better to save face and just let this one die.

Quote from: RecycleMichael on November 25, 2009, 07:58:38 PM
I haven't completely followed the ruckus over this appointment, so forgive me if I miss some of the points. In the spirit of declaring a conflict...I gave Liz Wright a small campaign contribution.

Did she fail to recuse herself on a vote regarding a property in the area where she was also President of the homeowner's association? This is what I heard.

If this is true, it doesn't matter who appointed her or how good a commissioner she is in my book. I would be disappointed to lose such a good commissioner, but this seems to be a fatal flaw.

Can someone shed some more light on this matter?

For a supporter, you seem awfully quick to throw her under the bus.

Liz Wright gave a very clear answer on the very first page of this thread (http://"http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=14538.msg148085#msg148085"). According to Wright, the Florence Park Neighborhood (not homeowners') Association did not take a position for or against the QuikTrip rezoning, so there was no conflict of interest.

Call it a hunch, but your question seems disingenuous to me, especially since you asserted that the answer was yes two days ago on my Facebook page (http://"http://www.facebook.com/BatesLineTulsa#/posted.php?id=106742658453&share_id=179118487741&comments=1#s179118487741"):

QuoteDid you forget to mention the meeting where she spoke as neighborhood president against the Quiktrip expansion at 21st and Harvard? She should have recused herself from that issue, but instead went ahead and voted.

That alone should have gotten her off the commission.

I like her and like what she says and fights for at those meetings, but you can't blatantly break rules.

My response:

Quote
I can always count on you to stand up for the overdog, Michael.

What rule did she break? The neighborhood association took no stand on the QuikTrip expansion. She had no personal financial or organizational interest either way.

If that alone should have gotten her off the commission, why did they wait an entire 18 months to try?

If you will read the minutes of that meeting, they do not back up your statement that "she spoke as neighborhood president."

http://www.tmapc.org/Approved%20Minutes/2008/05-21-08.pdf

I attended the so called hearing and I can assure you that Ms Keith had no proof of any of her charges. All she had to do was claim it to make it true. It appears that because the vote on QT's PUD was not unanimous is cause enough to remove Ms Wright. This forum was quoted as the smoking gun, although none of this was around until after Ms Wrights' integrity was publicly attacked by our celebrity politician, Karen Keith. Political assasination is what this is about. Ms Wright opposed Maria Barnes and showed an interest in holding public office. The Tulsa World, Maria Barnes and Karen Keith won't stand for that. After all Ms Wright isn't one of the chosen.

I am clearly outnumbered here.

I don't attend these meetings nor normally have an inclination to. I am not trying to throw Ms. Wright under the bus nor protect QT or any developer. I honestly gave her the contribution because she came on this forum to discuss issues. Her starting this thread and writing as much as she has makes me like her as well.

You guys are the hardliners here. Anybody who attacks a developer is a hero to you and you don't care how or why their motivation. Denigrating public officials must be a sport to you as well. I also remember both inteller and Michael Bates railing against mid-towners and their influence. I guess their outrage was conveniently just against all the other mid-towners, not the ones they like.

I don't think a neighborhood president should vote as a commissioner on a zoning matter in her neighborhood. I think that I would resign from my post as a neighborhood leader if I was being appointed to a commission that decided development versus neighborhood interests.

I have never spoke before the planning commission on any issue nor do I see a need to in my future. I like Ms. Wright and like having a balance of different interests on such authorities. I think that should be our goal.

I do, however, see a conflict in her voting on this matter. Maybe I am naive and don't see the same conflict in other commissioners on other issues, but this one is being discussed on a forum where I get lots of my opinions from. I even agree with DowntownNow on this matter and he and I disagree on everything. She should have recused herself on this item. Her failure to do so has led us to this point.

The bottom line.. can you say Witch Hunt? The FPNA had valid questions to QT and the city concerning the enlargement of their store at 21st and Harvard. Doubling the number of fuel pumps, yet no traffic study done at this busy intersection addressing a better flow of inbound/outbound traffic. The fact a duplex and a home were purchased, encroaching into the neighborhood, set a precedent. The duplex changed to light-office thru the backdoor. Lighting design, etc, etc. FPNA asked many valid questions, forcing QT to answer and when they got tired of answering our questions.. they brought Charles Norman in.. case closed. ( god rest his soul). The final meeting of the FPNA in the summer of 2008 when QT was discussed, Liz Wright turned the meeting over the the VP and left the room. If you look at the votes thruout her term on the TMAPC, she's the lone wolf on many issues. Yet she asks hard questions, valid questions and is the only member on this board representing the people versus big business, developers and the good-old-boy network. She can be tenacious like a dog with a bone.. but she is not stupid! She has ruffled a lot of feathers, but those feathers needed ruffled.  This city needs a change to balance neighborhoods and developers working together in concert, yet with the current leaders, it's not going to happen. Maybe with the City Council change, the lines of communication can open again and we can work as a unified, progressive city. The few who have "crammed down our throats" anything they wished has got to stop. And if they oust Liz Wright, I say every county commissioner should be placed on notice.

Quote from: RecycleMichael on November 26, 2009, 04:40:17 AM
She should have recused herself on this item. Her failure to do so has led us to this point.

Or, more to the point, created a political opportunity for an opponent to call in a favor.
Isnt that the real issue here?   

I think you have something there Patrick. She created an opportunity to challenge her credibility by not stepping aside. She may be righteous but she was not careful and powerful interests seized upon that mistake. I can't blame them, that is what powerful interests do.

Her campaign materials and posts here have convinced me she is a well educated, serious person but I saw little real world experience. I think she  may have underestimated her opponents. They apparently are better street fighters.

From my perspective, it is tiresome to see this neverending battle between the protectors of neighborhoods and their perceived enemies who sired them.

Quote from: moonovrmia on November 26, 2009, 07:44:47 AM
( god rest his soul). The final meeting of the FPNA in the summer of 2008 when QT was discussed, Liz Wright turned the meeting over the the VP and left the room. If you look at the votes thruout her term on the TMAPC, she's the lone wolf on many issues. Yet she asks hard questions, valid questions and is the only member on this board representing the people versus big business, developers and the good-old-boy network. She can be tenacious like a dog with a bone.. but she is not stupid! She has ruffled a lot of feathers, but those feathers needed ruffled.  This city needs a change to balance neighborhoods and developers working together in concert, yet with the current leaders, it's not going to happen. Maybe with the City Council change, the lines of communication can open again and we can work as a unified, progressive city. The few who have "crammed down our throats" anything they wished has got to stop. And if they oust Liz Wright, I say every county commissioner should be placed on notice.

I agree with everything you said except the god rest his soul part...

In response to Inteller.. It is the start of the Holiday Season and I was being nice.

"From my perspective, it is tiresome to see this neverending battle between the protectors of neighborhoods and their perceived enemies who sired them."

posted by h20 boy

This point is precisely what will stand in the way of "PlanItTulsa" making a substantive change.

The "us" vs. "them" mentality is not how you bring people together that have a common goal. 

I am amazed at the hypocrisy so many people display when it comes to private property rights. They will fight vigorously that a property owner should be able to do with his land what he pleases, yet are incensed when commercial property owners do that very thing!

It is obvious to anyone outside of the battle to see that commercial property at a busy corner, surrounded with good housing and a supportive local leadership, has a good chance of becoming a Target, WalMart, etc. Even if their original plans were to make it a Utica Square. When those original plans fail, they have every right to find another compatible use for that land.

It is also fair to say that both parties are joined at the hip. If the neighborhood values diminish, so do the commercial values/rents. If you severely restrain developers and tip the balance of power towards the homeowners, then less development or less quality development can be expected to occur.

I don't see much respect by either group towards each other. I feel bad for anyone who has to regulate (referee) these parties.

Quote from: waterboy on November 26, 2009, 08:45:11 PM
another compatible use for that land.

you are right they do, but the problem is they aren't.  Apparently "compatible" to certain unscrupulous developers equals "whatever will make me a short term gain"  ...surrounding incumbants be damned.

...and this commission plays right along.

Quote from: moonovrmia on November 26, 2009, 05:14:03 PM
In response to Inteller.. It is the start of the Holiday Season and I was being nice.

i wouldn't extend your courtesy because of the holiday season, there is no rest for the wicked.

Good evening - Hope everyone had a pleasant Thanksgiving Day.

Regarding the QT deal - My associational relationship to QT is akin to if I belonged to the YWCA and they wanted to expand; or the Target mess - would I have to recuse myself because I shop at Target?

Just because someone says there is a conflict over and over and over again doesn't mean there is one. Frankly it is smoke and mirrors, red herrings, etc. If there truly were concerns over conflicts then everyone on the TMAPC who have associational relationships to the real estate and development communities would need heavy scrutiny. That is what should be looked at but won't be.

No where has this been so blantently exhibited as when conservation districts were quickly discussed and dismissed. We were suppose to hold hearings - anyone remember that? Well - Josh Walker was very nervous because he'd gotten calls from his RE buddies. At the last meeting, during our worksession Phil Marshall was very adament that there would be no conservation districts in the PlaniTulsa comp plan because we cannot hinder developers.

Keith has decided that everyone who comes before the TMAPC has the right to be treated with respect. Well I  happen to agree with that statement. The funny thing - I've seen citizen after citizen disregarded. Whole neighborhoods watched as "magic" was performed. Every concern - every legitimate concern that would be brought before the commission was summarily dismissed. Don't believe me - I can give you multiple examples.

Read Micheal Bates posts concerning Joe Westervelt for a display of respect towards citizens.

We

What offends me the most about the targeting of Ms Wright is the blatent disrespect of a citizen volunteer by an overpaid elected official such as, let's say, for example, Karen Keith. Ms Wright is more qualified to be commissioner than Ms Keith yet she was working for free for us taxpayers. For a self employed person to give up the amount of time it takes to sit on the TMAPC is beyond generous. Ms Wright wasn't even reimbersed for her vehicle expense.Yet Ms Keith receives per diem. Ms Keith can say whatever she wants about Ms Wrights' integrity, yet she doesn't have to produce any evidence? Talk about being a disruption to the workings of the commitee. Why subject yourself to this treatment at your own expense? Any future appointee would have to be either insane or have a hidden agenda to accept this appointment. Don't expect a thank you, after all these people are just volunteer slave labor.

Sorry - glitch in computer.

The hearing.

The hearing opened with Keith removing the third allegation. Terry Simonson spoke for a few moments and stated it was for fact finding. Operative word - facts. Bill Leighty, a TMAPC commissioner, a Real Estate agent, and apparently a Bartlett go to guy for development, read a three page statement that well ... had no pertinent facts. His original three minutes were extended to seven minutes because Keith wanted to hear his statement. In fact he was so popular he got to speak several times. What I find quite humorous is that Leighty is new to the TMAPC and was not around during the QT deal. But .. golly he reported quotes, and comments from this forum as facts and proof. I have that statement and will post it.

He is the fellow that caused the stink at one of the work sessions regarding Holland Lakes. My speaking to their Homeowners Meeting on how to present to the City Council (all stuff you can read in the pamphlet) was "counseling" - Don't get that - I view it as public information and helping citizens. In fact under Chip Ard we had discussed visiting HOA's and NA's to improve our image. We came up with some good ideas - leaving comment slips on the chairs so folks could give us feed back etc. Developing some dog and pony shows etc. All good PR stuff. Well - Leighty who wasn't around during any of those conversations has joined a developer - Joe Westervelt in that assault. Conflict of interest?

Mr. Perry apparently believes this should not be done. Which means that the TMAPC is closed to citizen questions. TMAPC commissioners can't talk to citizens. Or at least the county appointed ones can't.

Oh and Mr. Smaligo said we can't talk about the make up of the TMAPC. Even though the representation issue is what Keith claims this is about - We can't talk about Dix and Carnes. Pot calling the kettle black?

So while the county spends money on having staffers go through former minutes to find out what I asked questions about so that the charge of "causing meetings not to run efficiently" can be meted out - I wonder if they are looking at all 9 of the commissioners to find out if there is an average number of questions - type of questions etc.

I am looking to everyone who reads this board to think long and hard about what is going on.

I am basically a very boring gal - obviously not photogenic in the least - science nerd type who asks questions. I ask why a lot - In fact us science types know that if a system cannot withstand scrutiny it might fail at the wrong time and cause a life or two. Over questioning makes a design better. If the why can't be answered then get back to the drawing board.

So obviously I ask the questions that made somebody irritated, very irritated. I apparently could throw a wrench into the monkey works so to speak. But how, when and where.

In January the PlaniTulsa public hearings begin. 

That is what needs to be examined. What is so important in the next few months that it is necessary to boot me off the TMAPC?

Where is the Land Use Task Force?

And does anyone really think that Bartlett will continue on with PlaniTulsa?

I really feel for the Pearl District Plans - here was a community driven effort from the ground up that will probably not get the support from the city it needs to go further.

As I understand it - Public hearings will be held January - March. Then the recommended comp plan will go before the City Council. PlaniTulsa is the vision; the zoning ordinance is what would allow it to happen. So even if we have the best comp plan unless the TMAPC passes ordinance which allow it to happen, it is all for naught.
Let's think about this - Mayor Taylor, with Kaisers help, gets the revision of the comp plan going. So its a good PR move for the city - but - instead of appointed a TMAPC commissioner with any gut feel for planning and all that it entails (and there is so much) - she appoints Leighty - and she puts him on the Land Use Task Force as well. Instead of hanging around to see that PlaniTulsa gets implemented, or to sever the TMAPC ties with the city and using our stellar city planning team, she bails. All along Bartlett has been hanging around City Hall - a chap who views PlaniTulsa as big brother.
I am obviously being word restricted  -

So.. Bartlett isn't going to do anything about the TMAPC contract. In fact we are between a rock and a hard spot now. We want the TMAPC interaction now (in an ideal world - with TMAPC made of folks that care about Tulsa).
Months and months ago Pat Boulden (yes the same fellow I reported John Shivels comments to - I also told Cantrell and McArtor - their reactions were priceless - I also told everyone I know - good cocktail story and yes I think Shivels wife need to know her husband makes such comments) brought the issue before us concerning the TMAPC contract. Afterall a new comp plan is the perfect time to discuss such matters. When Fregonese suggested consolidation the RE/Developer bunch on the TMAPC, along with the chaps at INCOG went slightly ballistic - the comments were removed from the PlaniTulsa booklet.

I asked Fregonese to provide us with a list of best practices from other cities. Anyone want to wager that won't happen?

We have an outdated and outmoded method of city planning. Most folks don't pay attention to what happens - they have jobs and lives. The only folks that really do - for whatever their reason - are the ones paid to do so.

So - why does the county have 4 seats on the TMAPC? Why?  If we were a metro form of government I could see it - in the 19 months or so that I've been on the TMAPC we have only dealt with a few county cases. The county pays a lot of money to TMAPC - how does the county benefit? Zoning - upgrade the zoning you upgrade the property taxes. In fact the county has some very steady streams of income - on the backs of Tulsa's residents.

There is your homework - add to this --

Oh - back to the hearing - yes it was grueling - more so because I was operating on 3 hours sleep because of a clients project that was due on Monday. It was laughable. No evidence. That is correct. No evidence. Keith actually suggested that I made the May 21st meeting (the longest in TMAPC history) so long because I asked questions. Not that there was a room full of people on several contentious developments - So, as I mentioned before they are looking for highly contraversial issues like .. my asking about stormwater, wastewater, environmental or other concerns. Bottom line anything that indicates my lack of rubber stamping.

I thoroughly enjoyed the implication that before my being appointed to the TMAPC that its image was peachy.

I am looking forward to the list of things a TMAPC commissioner shouldn't ask.

I am sure there is more to comment on if I thought about it. I won't find out what their allegations are til Monday. I do know that they should all be reading this forum.

There are bigger more important issues. Look around the red herrings and see what you can see. Think folks --

Oh by the way - Smaligo stated that they (the County Commissioners) will determine what makes up "just cause". Meaning you don't even get to read the fine print - shifting sands.

Does anyone know why their meetings aren't televised?

Comments and questions are always welcomed.

Cheers - Liz Wright

http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0BzE1VdqROfFTOTJiMjUwMzAtMWJiZi00ZTg1LWFlZjgtNWQ0OTU5ZGUzNzMy&hl=en

is the link to Leighty's "facts".

Interesting that Leighty is reporting on situations he has no first hand knowledge of; and he continues to miss the fact that the TMAPC had already voted on the Holland Lakes issue. And he rather neglects to state that the Holland Lakes HOA invited all of the commissioners to view the location. Even Karen Keith went out. I went out on a Saturday morning - met several of the neighbors, Bill Christensen was there and some folks were tramping about in the woods. So.. gosh everyone else can speak to the neighbors but I can't. Hmm..

And thank you - to all of you who sent emails, called etc. I really appreciate your support!

Also - thanks to everyone who called or emailed the commissioners - However, not one phone call or email of support was mentioned. Instead Keith is being painted as courageous and brave for taking this step and responding to the calls she received asking for the removal of Liz Wright.

Night -

Did you have to flood the forum with 11 posts in a row???

Paul Tay got kicked off this board for not much less. Jeez Louise.

go away.

Quote from: rwarn17588 on November 27, 2009, 08:52:18 AM
Did you have to flood the forum with 11 posts in a row???

I found them informative,
and dont really mind if they were divided into chapters  ;) 

Quote from: patric on November 27, 2009, 11:03:17 AM
I found them informative,
and dont really mind if they were divided into chapters  ;) 

She has more info in 11 post than he has in 4049.....

Quote from: Breadburner on November 27, 2009, 11:11:05 AM
She has more info in 11 post than he has in 4049.....

Glad to see that I have such a loyal reader.  ;)

Quote from: patric on November 27, 2009, 11:03:17 AM
I found them informative,
and dont really mind if they were divided into chapters  ;) 

Sorry about the postings - my computer is goofing up and I couldn't write any longer than this little box. I am trying to provide some comment (insight?) -  then again Leighty calls it "the dirty laundry of the TMAPC". Dirty, clean, white or colored - all of this affects the public.

Citizens should be able to ask questions and scrutinize anyone who represents them. And in turn - honest answers should be expected. I do not belong to the ruling class that feels they know whats better for the masses.  Inform - educate - illuminate. Messy business and well worth it. I stand by it.

if this forum really stood for anything it would post each meetings minutes and do a play by play.  In fact, the Tulsa World could get some good news out of the minutes by posting them and doing a play by play.  A weekly synopsis doesn't do the minutes justice.

when are all of you ridiculous idealists going to realize that this is the body that will proceed to destroy your precious  Planitulsa?  If you have any care about that you should be putting the TMAPC's feet to the fire and demand they get out of the way of any planitulsa hearing/approvals. 

Quote from: inteller on November 27, 2009, 02:09:42 PM
if this forum really stood for anything it would post each meetings minutes and do a play by play. 

I volunteer inteller to do the said play-by-play.

Quote from: Breadburner on November 27, 2009, 11:11:05 AM
She has more info in 11 post than he has in 4049.....

that would be 4052 now.

Quote from: inteller on November 27, 2009, 07:41:39 PM
that would be 4052 now.

Oh, I'm so hurt. I will faint.  :D

The retort above is by the same poster who ripped into others for "smartass" comments and a "peanut gallery" ruining a thread a few days ago, but is guilty of the same offenses many times over on this board and is guilty now.

Physician, heal thyself.  ::) Or you can simply disappear without a trace like you did, until very recently.

Oh. And Target is one of my favorite stores.  :D

Unless you are looking for sports game scores, I wouldn't rely on the Tulsa Worlds' reporting on anything!

actually I've found the accuracy to have improved in recent weeks after getting rid of some loser copy editors back in October.

but they still have the bad habit of changing the tone of the story to suit their overlortons...as they have recently done with this story on Liz Wright.

The Tulsa World reporting is definitely one-sided and elementary at best. Nothing original, the majority of stories are copied from other news sites and 2 days old.!
Forget their business section,, its embarrassing. And I've yet to see any real reporting on controversial topics in an unbias fashion... My highschool paper was better than what they put out.

Aren't the TMAPC board meetings already televised? They're pretty sleepy stuff. Perhaps you're referring to different meetings?

A play by play might be helpful as long as there is someone doing "color". It's the context of some of these controversies that is elusive to those not following every zig and zag the players are making.

The World could be such a helpful element in Tulsa in that respect. Just imagine if they provided a few services within a separate section of their newspaper daily or weekly like:
         
         1. Print a pic of city councilors next to a map of the district and contact information.
         2. List the council agenda each week.
         3. Poll their own subscribers, thus at least representing their views on local issues
         4. Print the name, description of duties, agendas and location of powerful authorities responsible for critical background decisions that the city/county uses. (RPA, Airports, Industrial Authorities, INCOG, etc.)Then note the members names, occupations and contact info for them.
         5. Show voting precinct maps, school districts, bus routes, etc.

There is more they could do to unify, educate and inform their electorate so that small groups of insiders cannot manipulate public interests for their own purposes. They still have a substantial subscriber base, and though it may stun many of you :P, not everyone considers the internet as credible, as comfortable or as convenient as tucking a newspaper under your arm.

Though I understand Ms. Wright and others may be fighting a righteous battle, it seems to me they are fighting it one armed.

well justice prevailed today, even if it did come via an odd method.

i guess keith wont be getting a campaign headquarters donated next election cycle.

Quote from: inteller on November 30, 2009, 11:29:13 AM
well justice prevailed today, even if it did come via an odd method.

i guess keith wont be getting a campaign headquarters donated next election cycle.

Care to share what happened? It adds so much more to the conversation when people know what you are talking about Inteller.

Here is the Tulsa World version...

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20091130_11_0_TulsaC503321

Motion to remove Tulsa County planning commissioner fails  
By KEVIN CANFIELD World Staff Writer
Published: 11/30/2009  Tulsa County commissioners did not remove planning commissioner Elizabeth Wright Monday after a motion to remove her failed for lack of a second.

County Commissioner Karen Keith had petitioned for Wright's removal from the Tulsa Metropolitan Area Planning Commission. During a meeting of the County Commission Monday morning, Keith made the motion but it failed for lack of a second. Commissioner Fred Perry abstained from the voting.

Keith's petition for Wright's removal cited the following allegations:

That Wright violated the Conflict of Interest section of the Planning Commission's policies, procedures and code of ethics. That Wright engaged in conduct that materially and adversely affects the orderly or efficient operation of the Planning Commission.

Wright was appointed to the commission in April 2008 by former District 2 County Commissioner Randi Miller. Her three-year term was scheduled to end in January 2011. Keith, a Democrat, succeeded Miller in January. Keith has said previously that she wanted to make her own appointment and that she wanted someone who would be responsive to the needs of the western and southern parts of Tulsa County. Wright, 52, lives in midtown.

Monday meeting came a week after county commissioners held a nearly two-hour public hearing on the matter. The vote was postponed a week to give county commissioners more time to consider the matter.

Totally un-related question, I've always wanted to ask and it popped up here in this story.  Is there any reason Liz's age is relevant enough to print in a news story?  Other than obits, why does anyone care how old someone is in a news story?

copy editors with nothing to do.

Quote from: inteller on November 28, 2009, 02:12:21 PM
actually I've found the accuracy to have improved in recent weeks after getting rid of some loser copy editors back in October.

Wow.

Quote from: Conan71 on November 30, 2009, 02:57:53 PM
Totally un-related question, I've always wanted to ask and it popped up here in this story.  Is there any reason Liz's age is relevant enough to print in a news story?  Other than obits, why does anyone care how old someone is in a news story?

Hi -
Trivial question ? I think along with that fabulous photo its a reminder to take better care of myself and not stay up late editing papers!

More importantly - Thanks to everyone for their support. We were all stunned, pleased and did much hoopla dancing. I will try to do a summary of the meetings by the week-end. Until then - catch the Pat Campbell show.

Liz Wright

when will you be on that show?  i dont normally listen to it.

Quote from: Liz Wright on December 01, 2009, 11:54:46 PM
Hi -
Trivial question ? I think along with that fabulous photo its a reminder to take better care of myself and not stay up late editing papers!

More importantly - Thanks to everyone for their support. We were all stunned, pleased and did much hoopla dancing. I will try to do a summary of the meetings by the week-end. Until then - catch the Pat Campbell show.

Liz Wright

Love your sense of self-deprecating humor, Liz.  Glad to know there is a human on the TMAPC board and the process worked as it was supposed to in regards to you retaining your position, especially after learning more of the facts in the matter.  Please don't be a stranger on these boards, we need someone with your insight and knowledge of the inner-workings of the planning process (no matter how dysfunctional our planning processes may be).

yeah it is a shame that other tmapc members who are on this forum (and have been for some time) dont tell it like it is as Liz Wright has done.

Quote from: inteller on December 02, 2009, 10:28:41 AM
yeah it is a shame that other tmapc members who are on this forum (and have been for some time) dont tell it like it is as Liz Wright has done.

Hi - Re KFAQ - Third hour this am. Podcasts available after noon.

Sometimes 20 minutes can seem like forever - and then it zips by. In the world of planning and how it affects Tulsa there is so much one could speak to. I am barely above the average citizen when it comes to the whole picture. Some citizens have been advocating for the citizens, the neighborhoods for years and years.

Why don't people speak out? Perhaps fear, uncertainty, making a mistake, the list goes on. Sometimes in the attempts to begin dialogue how we position ourselves sets the tone. Are we really seeking input or trying to get affirmation of our perspective. As an educator with years in the classroom it was far more important to get students to wrestle with the issues rather than the issues themselves. The discussion of how decisions are made is often more informative than the decisions themselves.

As a deconstructivist educator it is important, of paramount importance to understand the paradigms which govern how we draw our conclusions. Change the paradigm and other conclusions could be drawn. I also taught kids       

cont.

I also taught the kids to put the issues on the table. To disconnect from them and not take them personally. Of course many issues are very personal in nature. I want to make that distinction. To place them on the lab table and examine under a microscope is not a personal affront, it is merely inquiry.

It is one thing to point fingers and say "I don't like you!" when ideas clash; a much different thing to say "I don't like your ideas". My international students taught my whole class that. Americans don't like to debate - we take it far too personally - to disagree means we can't be friends. That semester we learned our disagreements made us far better peers, far better friends.

Off to meetings - take care all.
Liz

And then I think some people are perfectly content to let government "happen to them" which is why they aren't more involved or they don't realize there are ways to make a difference.

15 minutes until tipoff....lets see if tgovonline.org can handle it.

Quote from: Tony C on November 26, 2009, 01:10:01 AM
Ms Wright opposed Maria Barnes and showed an interest in holding public office. The Tulsa World, Maria Barnes and Karen Keith won't stand for that. After all Ms Wright isn't one of the chosen.

What planet are you from?? The idea that the TW and Maria Barnes have ANY common interest is completely laughable!  The same goes for KK and Barnes.  Unbelievable!

i think a better way of putting is the establishment has it out for wright, an outsider.

Quote from: inteller on December 04, 2009, 01:18:04 PM
i think a better way of putting is the establishment has it out for wright, an outsider.

That is quite a generalization.  It must be great to blame all things you don't like on "the establishment".

Quote from: RecycleMichael on December 04, 2009, 02:12:50 PM
That is quite a generalization.  It must be great to blame all things you don't like on "the establishment".

I consider myself part of the establishment and I blame me for many things.

Quote from: Townsend on December 04, 2009, 02:17:57 PM
I consider myself part of the establishment and I blame me for many things.

antidisestablishmentarianism

Quote from: avg citizen on December 04, 2009, 12:04:35 AM
What planet are you from?? The idea that the TW and Maria Barnes have ANY common interest is completely laughable!  The same goes for KK and Barnes.  Unbelievable!

The planet I'm from is called Oklahoma politics. People don't just decide to run for office and get elected in this state, let alone Tulsa. You will darn sure be beholding to someone or some group, for example the Tulsa Fire Fighters, just to mention one. And their involvement was dutifully reported by the World along with the list of which candidates they supported, with money and man power.

Quote from: inteller on December 02, 2009, 01:15:17 PM
15 minutes until tipoff....lets see if tgovonline.org can handle it.

I watched part of it, definitely not a cure for my narcolepsy.

Quote from: Tony C on December 06, 2009, 12:00:48 AM
You will darn sure be beholding to someone or some group, for example the Tulsa Fire Fighters, just to mention one.

Oftentimes the group you're beholden to is constituents, which I presume you think isn't a bad thing.

I hope.

One should hope the ONLY group you are beholden to is your constituents...the very group that was able to vote and elect you into office.  When politicians allow third party groups such as the Fire and Police Unions, development lobby, "local establishment,", etc to support and influence their decision making, those politicians are no longer looking out for their constituents but a special interest.  Shame we have so much of this in local politics when we have so many city ills. 

I'm glad there was far more explaination and timelines provided on this topic.  I'm also glad the facts supported Ms. Wright to keep her position on the TMAPC.  We need more people in office or appointed positions that are not afraid to ask questions and hold people accountable for whats in the best interest of the city as a whole.

Well, thank you for those comments. I appreciate them.

Liz Wright