The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

http://www.hillbillyreport.org/diary/1008/the-year-in-hate-part-1


These are great.....more to come.


Be kind!

There’s all kind of hate being perpetrated these days.  But it’s the local Oklahoma brand of hate that I feel the greatest responsibility to stop.

While many of us are completely unaware, Oklahoma’s hate-filled campaign against immigrants continues unabated.  
To date thousands of Oklahoma immigrants, over six thousand alone from the Tulsa area, have been deported from the United States, according to the TulsaWorld, largely because of nonpayment of traffic tickets.

Our immigrant community, which was one of Tulsa’s most vibrant communities is now greatly decimated and lives in fear.

So when you are all slapping each other on back talking about how great Oklahoma is, just remember this – There is nothing to be proud of in Oklahoma.  Oklahoma’s behavior today is consistent with her shameful history of bigotry and racism.

The Oklahoma Democratic Party has played a major role in this tragedy of our own making.  Brad Henry and Drew Edmonson have enforced these hideous laws to advance their careers on the backs of hardworking, family-orientated innocents.  Both will play a prominent role in the long chapter on racism in the history of this state.

The problem is you're parsing.  ILLEGAL immigrants are just that.  ILLEGAL.

Most on here know me as pretty left-leaning.  But when it comes to this, there should be no left or right.  I had a co-worker of mine who now lives in Wichita come here from India and spend six years doing it right to get his citizenship papers.  To watch people who cross the Rio Grande pi$$ all over the law.

Let me be clear on something.  I have nothing against immigrants.  AS LONG AS THEY ARE LEGAL.  If they are living here illegally, then either they need to make in-roads to becoming legal, or they need to be shipped back.  Plain and simple.

You are at the beginning of a very long learning curve.  I'm not hopeful that you will advance much further than you have.  And you don't have a place anywhere on the left.

All of our counterparts among the Western Industrialized Nations have guest worker programs because their economies are absolutely dependant on it.  We do as well, only ours is unofficial, all to our economic benefit.

Once again. like ALL anti legal imigration proponents, you did not read what I said.  I have NOTHING against those with legal status (work visa or other) in the USA.  If they are here illegally, as I stated before, they need to make plausible steps to becoming legal, or go home.  Simple as that.

Don't tell me what political affilation I do or don't belong to, either.  Any conscious US citizen would be madder than hell that jobs are being taken from US citizens.

Cue the 'they are just taking those jobs that US citizens won't take' mantra.  It's BS.  And it's tired.

Hometown just leave your door unlocked so people can come and go with your things as they see fit.  For you to keep your front and back door locked is just pure hate for not sharing all your bounty with your north Tulsa neighbors.  Burglars aren't criminals, they are just materially-challenged, they deserve all the things we've worked hard for.  How dare you wish that we'd lock up a burgar, armed robber, or vandal.   That's just pure hatred!

In fact, I think I'll take that pistol out of my bed-side table and leave it by my front door so a home invader has a fair chance when they break in my door.  To do anything less would put him at a severe disadvantage and would be hateful of me.

Coco,

That's off base. To equate the two reveals your twisted view of immigrants.

Do you really think Americans can make it on their own?

It's nothing to do with racism, it's all to do with legal vs. illegal ways to enter, live and work in the U.S.  Break the rules and you get sent home.  Now, if you want to argue institutionalized racism, well I suppose that's different - and all based on hearsay, anecdote and speculation.

The saddest Oklahoma-brand hate is that which is self-directed.  You'll feel much better when you've worked your way out of that hole.

edit: By the way, the linked 'hillbilly' blog is a long, sad, specious, irrational rant.

Twas the night before Christmas and all through our house the vigilantes were stirring looking for a mouse!

Late entry!!!!!!!!

Senator cites blacks as disadvantage for his state

"The argument here appears to be that Sen. Graham believes it is sleazy to expect a state with lots of black people in it, to have health reform," Maddow says. "Because you know, black people. Maybe he meant something other than what it seemed like with those remarks. But it should be noted he did use the same inexplicable argument twice. Once on the Senate floor and once on The Today Show. We contacted Sen. Graham's office today for an explanation. We'll let you know when and if we hear back."

Lindsey's a fag....that will break someday.



http://rawstory.com/2009/12/lindsey-graham-cites-blacks-as-disadvantage/

Hey Home-T. how bout your Mother or Grandmother riding her bicycle and killed by your favorite illegal and given seven years.
You and I both know he will not do seven but more like two or three.
I wonder if I would get the same in Mexico ?

Better look out! Here come the illegal GAY Mexicans! And they're married! Double no no!!!!


MEXICO CITY BRINGS GAY MARRIAGE SOUTH OF THE BORDER
http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/mexico_city_brings_gay_marriage_south_of_the_border_20091221/?ln

"The change would allow same-sex couples to adopt children, apply for bank loans together, inherit wealth and be included in the insurance policies of their spouse, rights they were denied under civil unions allowed in the city. "

OMG! This could spread into the USA like killer bees!


How come nobody here ever complains about the illegal Asians?

I think you know better. I count many immigrants amongst my friends, immigrants from England, Ireland, Germany, Mexico, Venezuela, Canada, Africa, Australia, Cuba, Jamaica, Russia, basically from countries on six out of the seven continents.  I don't know any immigrants from Antarctica.  ::)

Illegal is illegal, theft is theft.

Don't take things so personal...the devil agrees....we need immigrants, of course the "legit" ones, if for nothing else but to raise America's IQ level.

Assuming they are illegal...

In other parts of the USA, the locals complain about the Asians' kids doing really good in school, speaking better English than the local kids, and eventually getting the good jobs.

Probably not enough in the Tulsa area to tilt the playing board.

Dolfanbob, I would like to address the issue you raise.  

When you deny an immigrant the ability to obtain a driver's license then a large part of your community does not learn the "rules for driving" and driving conditions deteriorate and because driving without a license is illegal then "hit and run" accidents soar.  Immigrants who would like to buy insurance cannot because of the rules you have helped put in place.  I would also like to ask you about the Mothers and Wives of men who have been deported from the U.S.  I would like to ask you about the Children who are separated from their Fathers.  Do they not matter because they have brown skins and speak a different language?

Now let me tell you that if I had lived in Tulsa in 1921 during the worst race riot in U.S. history, I would have hidden Blacks in my home.  If I had lived in Germany during WWII I would have done everything possible to help Jews escape.  If I had lived in Tulsa when Indian land was being stolen from Indians for Whites I would have done everything within my means to stop it.  Today it is my responsbility to try and stop other Oklahomans from perpetrating the same old racism in a new garb.  It is my obligation.  And to not take action, to be aware of what is going on and to do nothing to try and stop it -- is a sin of the first degree.

Fifty percent of the children in Oklahoma public elementary schools are Latin.  Where do you think this is going and what do you think your prospects are for continuing your campaign of hated?

Apples/oranges regarding the Race Riot scenario you pose.  Blacks at the time were citizens.  LEGAL citizens, even if they were considered second or third class citizens.

What do you think Mexico does with Americans who don't follow correct immigration law?  They are deported.  How about Canada?  They are deported.  Why should it be any different here?

You forgot this one:  "If I had lived during the period of the Vietnam war and was called upon to serve with my fellow countrymen, I would not have fled to Canada or done whatever I could to avoid military service. Oh wait, nevermind."

Spare us your faux courage and bravery.

Hometown, you mistake pragmatism as hatred.  I agree there are some backwardsass hicks who are racially, or more correctly, ethnically intollerant when it comes to the Hispanic population, but I maintain that is a very small minority. 

These laws were in no way written to discriminate against a particular ethnic group. They were written to protect the jobs of legal immigrants and legal citizens, as well as their property and prosperity.

You also keep mistaking "immigrant" and "alien" with "illegal immigrant" or "illegal alien".  I do not personally know one person who has a problem with legal immigrants or legal aliens.

I can't speak to what was in the hearts of those who championed the immigration bill here in OK. I am dubious that they were entirely wholesome. More likely a combination of electioneering, pandering, protectionism and fear.

But here is my concern. Unintended consequences the law has spawned. More hit/runs. More petty crime. More hate filled diatribes based on generalizations. Families in disarray. That is because there is demand for low wage services here in the states from outside countries. Conversely, those countries have burgeoning populations thanks to religious beliefs and lack of birth control alternatives. They look at us and see a chance for a better life. Just like immigrants from the past. And don't kid yourself, many of those immigrants were illegal or barely legal or paying under the table for their acceptance.

Just like the drugs we demand from other countries, illegal immigration will continue unabated regardless of how many laws are passed or enforced. We can choose to spend our resources on detection and enforcement or....we could institute PRAGMATIC systems, like HT has suggested, that control, direct and encourage those populations to join in the American system instead of continuuing the bloodletting we're engaged in.

I think that 100 yrs ago (approximately) when my grandfather arrived on the shores of the USA, you mostly needed to not be sick to be let in legally.

"... like HT has suggested, that control, direct ...".  I am willing to listen to any ideas to "control" since what we are doing now obviously doesn't work.  Have any?  I agree we will never be able to close the doors, unless our economy really tanks and there are no jobs available.  I don't think we can afford a completely open door policy either.   

During the 1930s U.S. born citizens of Latin ethnicity were deported from the United States to open up jobs for "White" citizens.

During the 1930s residents of Oklahoma were legally barred from entering California.  Some Oklahomans would establish residency in other states in order to immigrate to California.

The U.S. had a guest worker program early in the 20th century.

Growers have advocated a guest worker program with a path to citizenship since at least the 1970s.

In 1975 a Papago Indian friend of mine drove me to the countryside outside of Carmel so that I could see the shantis beside the fields where migrant labor lived. 

The Declaration of Independence originally said..... life, liberty, happiness, a fine horse and carriage, and a really nice home.  Partisan bickering reduced it to what we know now... life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.  Can't afford everything.

Doesn't guest worker = work visa?

Yet again, I know alot of us here do NOT have any problems with legal immigration.  I have to defend this position almost daily it seems when we talk about it at work.  A lot of my fellow 'lefties' blur the line between illegal/undocumented and legal immigrants.

I'll say this one last time, then I'm done on the subject.

GET RIGHT WITH THE LAW OR GET OUT!

Hoss, hope you don't lose any sleep over this but.... I agree with you on this post.

I've always thought that.  Just because it says D on my voter card doesn't mean I espouse every D ideology.  Just like I hope those that have R on theirs might actually have some left-leaning views.  Hell, if the Modern Whig party took up residence in Oklahoma I'd register with them in a minute.

I understand that people want to come here to better themselves.  But do it in a way that makes you right with the law.  I've stated several times on here that I've known people who have and it makes them madder than hell to watch all the illegals pi$$ing all over immigration law, when they busted their a$$es for years to become US citizens.

It's privilege people!  You are either born into it or you earn it.  Hopefully if you're born into it you earn it in one fashion or another.  Those who earn it by traveling from less fortunate countries and get the immigration right I will proudly call 'fellow US citizen'.

Yeah, that's great. You're a principled man. Sell it to the local businessmen who depend on illegal immigrant labor, legal fees, drugs, sex and such. Tell it to the families who have lost loved ones from unlicensed, uninsured drivers who had every incentive to run away and none to stay. And we're not even a border state.

It seems so simple doesn't it? Drugs? BAD! Just Say NO! Throw their butts in jail!  Illegal Immigration? BAD Just Don't Do It! Deport them or throw their butts in jail!  Problem is that as long as suburban high school kids come to the north side to buy drugs that came here illegally, the drug trade flourishes. As long as illegals can get fake tags, fake DL's, paid legal representation, untaxed cash for their labor or sex, and living accomodations; as long as principled men think they can actually stop them by passing laws and thumping their chests like Mussolini.......the illegals are not going to go away. And so innocent people suffer. I don't care about being a "D" or a "R". Its common sense that ignoring a problem with such great incentives doesn't make it go away.

I'm not attacking you Hoss. Nor do I approve of illegal immigrants flaunting our laws. I crave a more creative solution than what's been offered. We haven't really been known for creative solutions here since the traffic circle, the yield sign and the parking meter all from over 40 years ago.

Yield sign and parking meter from OK, yep.

Couldn't find a reference to traffic circles being invented here and I'm not sure I would want to claim them.  My mother claims to have rescued my father from NJ traffic circles when they got married and dad moved to PA.  I'm not too sure about the difference between a modern roundabout vs. a traffic circle either from the descriptions I could find.

I'm not fond of parking meters either but understand the principle.

Let's start a list of "creative solutions" waterboy:

1.

Hey, can't we buy some creatives to do this for us? I'm not that creative but I'll take a shot.

First thing that comes to mind is a story a fellow told me about his time in county jail a couple years ago. He made acquaintance with a Mexican guy there who told him he didn't know what to do to get home. Turns out he had been promised a well paying job in Tulsa in construction. The young man had been assured all the details like food, lodging, work permits etc had been taken care of. He was brought in illegally in a van with about a dozen other guys and dropped off at a construction site. The foreman looked them over and selected the ones he wanted. After a day of work the fellow was "discharged" without even being paid. He spoke halting English. Who's he going to complain to? He doesn't even know where he is or who the contractors are. Suddenly he's in a city far from home, no money, no family support and no food. The guys who brought him apparently got their money and disappeared.

He ended up stealing some food at a grocery store and was arrested. Now, the authorities realize he's not legal. They don't contact social agencies, they don't contact immigration authorities and there is no way this inmate makes Avalon or the city/county any money. He's a losing proposition for everyone. So, they kick him loose, take him a few blocks from the jail and drop him off. Then it happens again. Rinse/wash/repeat. Its a drain on everyone involved; the grocer, legal labor, cops, jail, taxpayers and social agencies.

But it was a boon for some people. These guys with the van don't just go down to Mexico on speculation. They have lists of needed skills from local companies in a variety of hard to track industries. Those companies have accountants and attorneys who have to know whats going on. The "lucky" workers who are good enough to be kept somehow end up with a support net. Lodging, ID's, vehicles, tags etc. Cash talks, but really, there has to be direct involvement with educated, connected people. Word around the street is that for cash you can get that support.

Perhaps thats where you could start. Compete with these unscrupulous labor finders by making a better offer. Maybe forming a foundation, made up of local businesses who suffer from unfair labor practices. They could make a visible upfront offer of amnesty for any illegal. The immigrants can then be part of a pool of workers that can choose to work towards citizenship/guest worker status with a portion of any wages going to the foundation.  Or the foundation could pay for transportation to their homeland.

I don't necessarily disagree with you.  But I think that you have a false sense of how the majority of "illegals" got here.  They didn't all creep accross the border.  A significant number came over here legally, then let their visa expire.  Some don't understand that they are no longer legal.


A woman whom I know came over here legally from Honduras.  She let her visa expire, mostly because she didn't have the $2000 an attorney was going to charge her to reapply.  After a couple of years, she saved enough, and followed through on her visa.  Unfortunately, she has two children, and during the wait, her oldest turned 18.  She was unaware that her visa no longer covered her son since he was 18.  He was stopped for a broken tail light; his status was checked; and he was deported. 

It is easy to say "deport all the illegals."  When you see it tear apart families, you realize it isn't always so black and white.

Waterboy. That is a amazing story. One that im sure rings true.
As I read it, I could not help but think of the comparison to Schindlers List. Where they are lining up the prisoners and looking them over, checking their teeth, age, height, weight etc, etc.
Doesnt seem that we have advanced to much from that by what you were told. Kind of sad.
Slave labor by any means is wrong no matter what era that it is happening.

And you know what us citizens are told: "Ignorance of the law is no excuse".

We all have our heart-rending stories of families torn apart by immigration laws.  It still doesn't change the fact that there are repercussions for those who break and flaunt the laws, and unfortunately people drag their kids into that mess.

Do you think for one second that other countries would look at the status of your children before deporting you?  Likely not.

I don't think I'm insensitive, but as Conan alluded to, ignorance of the law is no excuse.  If you've lived here long enough to let your visa expire, you should know a little bit about the law of the land, especially when it comes to immigration law.  And please, if you're going to live here, at least make the attempt to learn the language we speak.  Other countries would ask the same of you if you moved there.

So, now our standards are dependent on how other countries treat their illegals? Interesting. How low will we go?

Ignorance of the laws. You must love the tax code and the bankruptcy codes. That old phrase is great to use if you're a cop, a judge or a prosecuting attorney and it gets lawyers a steady stream of business. They get elected and write the laws with help from their corporate masters, then they later get to use that phrase on the rest of us.

These are lame solutions. Can't anyone else come up with something better than these?

You cannot be serious. Are you comparing the complexity of the U.S. tax code to whether a person knows that a country they were not born in is there legally? You must really think the illegals are dumbasses or something.

Got it. Reward those persons whose mere presence in this country is illegal with citizenship.

Pretty amazing we expect to strip away natural-born citizens rights when they commit a crime, yet we want to give carte-blanche to people who were breaking the law the moment they entered the country.  What amazing logic!

So what do we do about the problem?

This country, under numerous presidents of differing political parties, has given tacit approval to illegal immigration from Mexico for decades. The genie has been long out of the bottle, and can't be put back in.

By conservative counts, there are 10 million here. What do you do about it? Fines? Mass deportations? What's the less-awful answer?

I still say we invade Mexico with US troops. Bring the soldiers to a war closer than the Middle East and let them fight in a place where a weekend pass gets them to Texas or California.

Mexico has oil and beaches, too.

Then we can make Mexican citizens legal American residents, get them paying income taxes, and make a bunch of new states. Just think of the tremendous investment opportunities and how much better our soccer teams will play. 

There will also be cost-savings because building a wall on our new southern border will be easier between us and Guatemaula.

RM

Let's see...  much of Mexico is already so bad that "they" want to come here and you want to invade and take it over?  Trying to create the US/Mexican Civil War?  You trying to hurry up the requirement to learn Spanish?

Perhaps you misunderstood.  She did not enter this country illegally.  She came over legally in 1998 when her country and her home were destroyed by Hurricane Mitch.  She came to the US with absolutely nothing, and began working right away making money the only way she could--cleaning houses.  Yes, by all means, ignorance of the law is no excuse, and I suppose her first priority should have been to head down to the local law library and read up on immigration laws.  Unfortunately, she was just too busy finding a place to live and feeding her family.  And I guess it's her own fault for dragging her kids to the US with her.  She should have left them in Hounduras to starve, or demanded that her 18 year old son, who was still in high school, come up with his own $2000.

While the principal of "ignorance of the law" applies to everyone, citizens at least are granted the right to an attorney.  Technically, my friend was not illegal, because Hondurans that came in 1998 were granted Temporary Protected Status (which was extended several times), and had the right to remain in the US.  It was simply a matter of filling out the right paper work--if she could have afforded an attorney, she would have known that.

When I was a kid I used to see public service spots on the TV reminding (legal) aliens to register at the Post Office each January.  Maybe we need to go back to something as simple as that.  If there are other requirements for an individual, the requirements should show up at that time.  As far as I know, no lawyers required.

Yes, and no. It is relative though. Some of them are quite dumbass while others seem to fit right in hereabouts.

Creative Solutions from Guido:
     1. Misunderstand the proposal
     2. Offer no other solution

If you insist. Don't include me though in your "we". If by Carte Blanche you mean a credit card then, yes, our banks are up for that.

Finally! The question begs and the lame keep crying, "are there no jails? are there no INS agents? can't they read our volumes of law and keep up?"

I am amazed at the reactionary nature of the replies here when I spent late nite hours trying to come up with something (flawed) but creative. There has to be a better way than just lock em up or build a wall.

I didn't misunderstand a thing.  I never said she entered the country illegally.

There is no requirement to employ an attorney for $2000 to file for an H2-B visa or US worker visa, unless you over-stay your original visa, then yes, probably a very good idea to hire one.  Plan ahead, follow directions, and these things don't happen.  There are social agencies within the Tulsa area which will help with translations if it's a language barrier, and I do believe some groups like Catholic Charities do have advocates for immigrants. 

Here's a good place to start, if anyone is curious about the process and the fees.  No it's not free to get visas or citizenship but an attorney is not absolutely necessary.

http://travel.state.gov/visa/immigrants/immigrants_1340.html

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=dd346d26d17df110VgnVCM1000004718190aRCRD&vgnextchannel=dd346d26d17df110VgnVCM1000004718190aRCRD

You aren't tipping the cooking sherry, are you?

Good idea. Who said nothing good ever comes out of the suburbs? :D

I think you have left yourself kind of open to attack on that one.

Probably. Need better brand of Sherry I guess. Anyway, the general population is pretty dumbass in America. We're pretty smart about music and celebrity but not the law, math, science and history. Some immigrants are dumb too. My point is that we have a group of pretty well educated, well paid posters who cross culturalize. You'll notice only you and I offered anything new. I was asked to offer a solution and made a stab.

A little help to get you back on track.

That'll keep Conie happy. :D

Because some thoughtful people are participating in this discussion I would like to point out that the change we are talking about has already occurred.  The Latin community in Oklahoma has arrived and is doing quite well despite our racist attempts to quash it.  The Latin community that I know is much like the best of us.  They are hard working with strong families and strong faith.  They are the epitome of the American dream.  Our system is fortified and our way of life is reinforced by their participation.

The real problem here is not the dignity of Latin people it is the failure of the Leadership of Oklahoma to address the needs of low income Oklahomans in general and I would say specifically the failure of Democratic leadership in Oklahoma to advocate for the Poor Whites of Oklahoma. 

Poor Whites are the odd man out here and are sorely in need of care and attention.  They are the largest demographic of poverty and yet we don’t even acknowledge that they exist.  They are largely responsible for the support for this campaign of hate against Latins.  So to answer your call for a solution Waterboy, I would say that the well being of the Poor Whites of Oklahoma is intimately tied to the tolerance of newcomers of our community.

I supported in large measure HB 1804, which is the reason why I have not offered up anything "new". I do agree with you on going after predatory employers, and 1804 does some of that. However, it is very hard to sympathize with the plight of the "illegal" alien when they: 1) have no business being in this country and, 2) siphon off U.S. citizens and those immigrants that do not break the rules.

As for your solution, it is nothing more than rewarding bad behavior. What might work is if all the illegals would leave the country then stand in line like everyone who wants a piece of the American dream. That way they can be accounted for and taxed, just like you and I are by the census bureau and IRS.

Build a wall yes. 

For those who are here...

One: They need to register and be put on the clock.  In one year, show that you are making inroads to becoming a US citizen, or we will take steps to send you home.  This must start on a specific date, be given an amnesty period to register.  If you're past the amnesty period of registering, you get sent back.  Each case gets revisited every year while registered until citizenship is attained.

Two (this would be the toughest and not sure if even it could be done): modify the wording in the first section of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States.   It currently reads:


It's vague and should be retooled to indicated those immigrants or nationals need to be legal, and not illegal.  Thus eliminating the 'anchor baby' stigma.  Not sure if a separate amendment would need to be ratified to change the wording or not.

I admit these are only two and probably aren't very popular with my fellow lefties, but that's my feeling on it.

Anchor babies:  If the illegal alien parents are deported back to their home country the cry is that "we" are splitting up the family.  What prevents the parents from taking the baby with them?

I think your post pretty much sums up the differences we have. I can understand your preference for aliens respecting our laws. I wish Americans would respect our laws too. They don't and, pragmatically, we resort to varieties of ways to enforce, encourage or incentivise the behaviours we know are needed.

Like speeding in construction zones. Its illegal. We arrest people, we ticket them, we post limits, we put up flashers, we run public service ads educating people about them. Then they speed anyway. The methods used simply aren't working because the need for speed is too great and there isn't 100% enforcement. Patience is learned early in life and the solutions to a lot of such behaviors lie there.

Same thing with tax evaders, cell phone drivers, smoking etc. Sometimes we even allow or reward some bad behaviors in order to accomplish a greater goal. We forgive late parking fine penalties, we make sentence modifications for criminals in return for information, we allow pleadings to lesser charges in order to save the taxpayers money. All pragmatic efforts to make a faulty system work. Some allege the level of justice received is in direct proportion to the cost of the lawyer. If true, we have some citizens whose wealth makes their citizenship better than others. Which brings up another irony. If these were wealthy immigrants who were bringing in large amounts of capital to invest in our local economy, is there any doubt their arrival would be less controversial?

Anyway, in the end I believe you are more idealistic than I am. I don't ever see a manmade system that can effectively do what you and Hoss think the law can do with illegal immigration because the factors involved, greed, ignorance, jealousy and chauvinism are immutable. Therefore, I would opt for some way of pragmatically dealing with those factors for the greater good. We simply can't build enough prisons, hire enough security or build enough walls to do otherwise.

The constitution is fine. The founding fathers weren't naive folks. They were possibly more welcoming of immigration of any sort to make sure the country had the labor to grow and prosper. They certainly didn't let it get in the way of slavery. Its pretty clear to me anyway. The anchor baby issue could be addressed by your registration and by providing incentives for family to acquire citizenship as well.

I can't believe any American who has any memory of the Berlin Wall, or the Great Wall of China could advocate one on our border. Even stranger is thinking that it would work. Really, step back a moment and think of its impact. About as useful as a twenty story Indian statue in far North Tulsa. ;)

If they were bringing large amounts of capital, there would probably be a legal way to enter the USA.  The "cost" of a green card would be chump change.

It's not about idealism or pragmatism, or any other "ism". It is about you equating illegal aliens as legal immigrants or U.S. citizens. It is almost as if you could care less about the rule of law and insist that we as a country should just forget particular rules of law for the sake of compassion. We pass laws through our elected officials for a reason, and you could care less about the rule of law and create exceptions on grounds of pity.

So what would you do?

First of all, I would edit my previous post to read couldn't care less. (h/t). Second, I believe we should enforce our immigration laws before there is any discussion about amnesty of any kind.

OK ... so let's get into specifics.

When you talk about enforcement, are you talking mass deportations? Are you talking massive arrests of employers who flout the law? All of the above? Is there anything I'm missing?

And are you willing to pay the massive amounts of tax money that this effort(s) will require?

I'm not being a smart*ss; I'm genuinely curious to see how far you're willing to go with your stance and what it entails.

This is an excerpt from an exchange on the issue from a few years ago with pappaspot, I still feel the same way.  Locating, rounding up, and deporting 20 to 30 million people is a pipe dream. Parenthesis are added to give context of the on-going conversation without re-posting the whole thing here:

"I believe many of the illegals remain illegal due to ignorance of our legal immigration channels.  They are afraid to come forward out of fear of being deported.  Give them a specific window of time to become legal without fear.

I don't think anyone would disagree with your point that if you had a child, you'd want the best healthcare and education.  However, we need to take away the incentive for parents to do this (have anchor babies here by bestowing instant citizenship on people born to citizens of other countries here), unless the Mexican government is willing to pick up the tab.  Otherwise, provide those services only to those who are here legally. 

Just because someone is born here to a mother who doesn't respect our culture or laws, doesn't make them legal in my books, because they won't be brought up to respect our culture, language, and laws.  I don't believe picking up the tab for healthcare and education for every third world immigrant should be incumbent on legitimate American tax payers.

As far as what happens to the children of illegals we'd boot out for non-compliance, sorry to sound hard-hearted, but if the parents weren't willing to get legal, when the opportunity presents itself, that's on the parents of those kids, not our government and not my conscience.

Unless everyone has forgotten, until the early 1900's churches were about charity and governments were about governing.  Now it seems to be reversed.  If it bothers people what would happen to these kids, they can tell their church to start building orphanages.

Real simple summary-

1)Lock down the Mexican border.
2)Give those already here a chance to comply.
3)Kick out the ones who don't."

We need to fund the bill that was passed in 2006 to build the impenetrable border fence.  There's an example of a worthwhile stimulus project.  My beliefs on this issue have zero to do with a racial or ethnic bias.  We simply cannot afford all the amenities we are providing for legal citizens, much less leaving the back door open for anyone else who wants to slip in and suck up our largesse. 

I think it's a good discussion. However, there are several big problems with this proposal:

1) How is this going to get through the Congress? I don't see either party wanting to come to grips with this.

2) In the remote event that such legislation happens, where are you going to get the money? Are you advocating massive cuts in defense or other programs to do so? Because that's the only way to keep the deficit from ballooning further.

3) Do you think building a fence would solve the problem? In case you haven't noticed, there's a lot of commerce that goes back and forth on the border each day and, thus, ample avenues for smuggling. Also, there are things called the Pacific and Atlantic oceans, in which someone in boats could simply bypass the wall.

4) Are you willing to put up the huge disruptions and unrest that will almost certainly occur in the wake of such legislation?

Let's face it -- illegal immigration has always been a safety valve to keep labor costs down (hello, cheap produce) and fill blue-collar jobs that have chronic vacancy problems.

After reading the problems above, I can see why politicians are all too willing to kick the can down the road.

Illegal immigration may be a problem, but a concerted effort to end it may create much more serious problems. Sort of like the War on Drugs.

The citizens of the US need to make up our minds that we really do want to "get rid of the illegals" and be willing to pay more initially for goods and services.  I cannot quantify the levels since I don't know the true cost of social services, lost income tax, lost revenue due to their spending,  etc.  At least initially some things will cost more.

Make it more expensive to hire illegal aliens than citizens or legal aliens.  This is the difficult part. Prosecute any and everyone who knowingly employs an illegal alien.  Some will creep through this "knowingly" crack but fake ID can be hard to spot.  Verify Social Security Numbers.  A quick trip by the SS Admin through their computers should show things like two addresses for the same number.  No jobs, a lot less illegals.  I admit, not a total absence of illegals. I believe the TW has already reported that local economy has already caused some decrease in illegals.  The same as we cannot win the war on drugs as long as there is a demand for drugs, we will not even reduce the illegal alien traffic until it is less desirable to hire illegal workers than legal aliens or citizens.

No social benefits for illegals.  I hear they get some benefits. I have no first hand knowledge. No unemployment, food stamps, regular health care (even for the kids) etc.  Want your kids in public schools?  Show a US income tax return and/or evidence you are here legally. (I expect anyone here as independently wealthy and without US income will probably not be illegal.) Several families living in a single house with a lot of kids doesn't support the school system.  Otherwise have your kids educated in the home country.  I would not deny emergency humanitarian health care.  Go to the emergency room with a minor illness, cut or scrape? Too bad.  Come in bleeding, broken bones?  OK, we'll fix you up even if it is "on the house".

Deport illegal alien parents with "anchor babies" and tell them to take the baby with them.  What country would deny a parents' right to bring back a baby just because the parents were out of the country when the kid was born.  Are the kids born in the US automatically not a citizen of their parents' country?  Perhaps the parents were just on vacation to the USA when the kid was born.  When the "born in the USA" (Sorry Bruce) kid can be supported by its family or by itself, it can return and claim citizenship if it wants to.  

OK lefties, here's where your man can shine... Have Prez Obama wheel and deal with Mexico to have them use their own money (probably actually from the US via oil sales) help their poor and make it so there is not so much need for them to come to the USA.  Just spread the money around. Or, build the economy.   There is money in Mexico.  I believe it's just distributed even worse than in the US.   I know that not all the illegal aliens come from Mexico.  Perhaps Mexico can help absorb some of the Central American illegals.  (Not holding my breath.)

The concept is simple.  Make it undesirable for the illegals to come here illegally.  Make it unprofitable for employers to hire illegals.

The implementation is always the tough part.

Understatement of the week.

Rwarn, the genie is out of the bottle. The Senate passed a bill in Sept. '06 authorizing 700 miles of fence be built and appropriated about $1.5 bil of the $6 bil estimated to get it started.  That still doesn't cover all the border, but it's a start and they got 80 or so Senators to vote for this, so it wasn't that difficult to get done.  If congress were willing to vote to cover all gaps and provide additional man-power to prevent human smuggling, they can do it.  To bring people in illegally on a large scale via water is not impossible but very difficult.  You cannot stop all illegals from entering this country and a better tracking system should be in place for those here on temporary visas. I can assure you, close tracking is done in other countries and there is no reason we should not do so here.  

Estimates of the costs to taxpayers of illegal immigrants, based on studies I found while Googling range in net costs to federal taxpayers of $10 bln to $20 bln a year.  However, one study suggests the cost to California alone for providing education, healthcare, and other social services is as much as $9 bln a year.  

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecentersf134
http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/archives/000506.html

Obviously, instantaneously sending 20 or so million people out of the country at one time would create one hell of a vacuum and there are occupations we need unskilled labor for which many Hispanics appear quite willing to do.

Where to get the money?  It hasn't been a problem to find money to prop up the auto industry, spread around billions of extras in the healthcare bill as incentive to get it to 60 ayes, prop up the banking system, etc.

If a sensible approach to dealing with the existing immigration problem is taken (i.e. you can't just "send them all back") you won't see a spike in produce or durable goods prices.  If there is a slight rise, that would likely affect the average consumer very slightly and should result in less burden on federal assistance and social programs which means less revenue needed by the government which should translate to lower taxes.  You can either pay it on the front end or back end.  Personally, I'm always going to choose paying in the free markets and less to government because government is inefficient by design.

If anything they should have taken about $100 bil from the stimulus and put it toward a sensible program to lock down the border (helps the construction industry in some areas hard hit by the economy like Arizona and California) and get started on a government-sponsored "get on the path to being legal" agenda.  No this would not be an "amnesty". As mentioned in my previous post, put out a timeline with strict deadlines and requirements and throw out anyone who does not comply or is undesireable as a U.S. citizen (i.e. drug dealers, murderers, etc.).

This could have had a far better multiplicative effect on the economy plus bring into line more of these immigrants enjoying full citizenship rights some day.  Many use bogus SSN's, neglect to get health care or buying auto liability insurance simply because they are afraid of "the man".  

It's not that difficult, all it takes is people in Washington doing things for the right reason and exercizing simple common sense.  I absolultely refuse to look at the status quo and say: "this is too big of a problem to do anything about so I think it's okay to let it fester another 20 years."  That's the wrong attitude and approach.  

I had no idea until this thread that this forum  was populated with so many utopian idealistic folks. Conan, Guido, good luck with your fantasy island constructs. Can't wait to visit the wall, and write graffiti on its billboards that Stokely will probably sell. I made the remark early in this discussion that we would have to decide just where we wanted to spend our resources, either in managing a problem or punishment. That seems to have been reinforced. As for me, I would like to have seen some of my arguments addressed but at least the issues and perspectives have been fleshed out.

And, I had no idea that Red and I could come from such different perspectives and arrive at the same conclusions.

How is what I propose some sort of punishment, waterboy?  Would it not please you to see a government better place the resources we give it so that at this point in your life, they would require less of your hard-earned revenue which you could place toward your retirement?  I fail to see how my approach is anywhere close to utopian.  It's quite workable and fair to people who do not have legal status in this country now.

If I'm being idealistic, I'd far rather take that approach on how to bring a humanitarian approach to our immigration problem rather than to stick my head in the sand and take a cynical "it's too late" approach.  Have you ever considered how many illegal immigrants don't get healthcare for themselves and their kids because they live in fear of being deported?  How else to quit treating them as "second class citizens" as you claim?  What do you do about the constant influx of more illegal immigrants if we grant unconditional amnesty to those already here and we fail to impliment and enforce a sensible guest worker program?

I know, let's just grant U.S. citizenship to all 6 billion or so people world-wide then we can just be shed of this problem for good!

Watch IRS agents heads explode in 3...2....1

 ;D

I didn't think you were being a smart @ss in the least and I agree this is an interesting subject given the economic, social, and political implications of immigration reform. I really believe the starting point is to make the U.S. an unattractive target for illegals, which would include mass crackdowns on employers of illegals and bankers that extend credit to illegals, terminate access to medical and educational facilities to those that cannot produce proof of lawful residency, and terminate the "sanctuary city" concept and require all cities to comply with federal immigration law.  

How is wanting the laws of this country enforced Utopian? Tell you what, please make a list of all the laws that should not be enforced and the reason for doing so--maybe there are some laws out there I can ignore to improve my quality of life.

Working class Whites need to know that there is a job for them in this more diverse setting.  And they also need to accept a greater level of competition.

I like to do that occasionally.  It's kind of like a college prof saying "It's intuitively obvious to the most casual observer."

We're not that far apart on our views. I think maybe inexact communication is in play here. And of course some fundamental differences in our approach to life. However, I've started my New Years drinking so I'm going to bow out for now. Bon Anne'!!