The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

Our city economy is really in the pooper.

Wow. Nothing but a church expansion and some city owned stuff has been discussed lately. Terrible.

How many businesses did we lose in '09? I'd wager a lot.

Unfortunately that is the case in just about every U.S. city...one of the reasons the design and construction industries have taken one of the biggest hits during this recession.

Downtown in early 2010.... Boomtown Tee's, Dust Bowl, The Max Retropub, Hey Mambo, Lee's Bike's, Back Alley Blues and BBQ, Another un-named bar, and rumors of a new running store by Lee's. Additionally, there are some new things coming by the ballpark and more developments on the horizon (two significant ones) in the BOK area, and around 5th and Elgin. There are more than a couple loft projects in the works and don't forget about the hotel in the Atlas building, the Convention Center remodel, and a new baseball stadium.

In the last few months we've seen several things open as well: Yokozuna, Zarbo's Greek Grill, Hunt Club, New YMCA, that camping store, etc...

Seems to me like there's a decent amount of "Development & New Business" happening. . . and that's just inside the IDL.

Maybe this new business just isn't compelling enough to merit the attention of the forum. What can we do to amp up the interest and excitement?

Well, something needs to amp up the interest. My wife and I wanted to enjoy the downtown experience on Saturday night, so we drove over to Hunt Club around 6;30-7pm. She has this problem with eating somewhere that has no other patrons. She says we might as well eat at home in the kitchen. There were no customers anywhere north of the tracks in the Brady district. A little bit at Spaghetti Warehouse and the Mexican restaurant but nothing else anywhere.

We drove back over the tracks to Blue Dome area and there was more traffic, particularly at Joe Momma's and Guapo's but we weren't in the mood so we headed to McNellies which had a good crowd. There was nothing going on at the Arena, nothing at Cain's, the Performing Arts Center didn't seem to have much activity either.

I know that the clubs get busier as the night gets later. But not everyone is into the music scene. Our impression was that a lot of downtown right now is hype. Spin, whatever. Its about to happen, but its wrong to set expectations too high.

    Lets see,,,, there is also the Lorton PAC at TU which is coming along nicely.  Going to be an impressive addition to the campus.  By me is the new OU Tulsa Library that is just starting. Then of course the Riverwalk Phase 2 with all the new apartments going in.  They have started the first building that will be a part of the Jenks Main Street development. The large medical college building across the river near downtown is starting to wrap up. New Rivers Edge restaurant should be starting soon. That Brookside, infill, office development across from Wild Oats is still adding new structures. Wolfgang Pucks is also moving along on Brookside. There has been a spate of small hotels going in around the 71st corridor, 2 under contstruction right now another one finishing up right now further south along with the new hospital expansion out there. Oodles of apartments have been going in between 71st and 81st on Mingo, and a lot of them going in near Tulsa Hills, and a hotel over there, and some medical expansion. New nice looking retirement/nursing home facility expansion going in off 31st between Harvard and Yale.  Just some stuff I can think of right off.   Not a lot of large, glamorous stuff, but there are a smattering of things in several parts of town.  And there are a number of things in the planning stages, and some in a "hold" stage which could get announced or even started towards the end of the year.

(http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/funny-pictures-cat-has-a-half-full-glass.jpg)

   Dont know where or what the Hunt Club is...?   Hmm, not sure what the hype/spin is your referring to.  If you have been downtown in the last several years, you pretty much should know what to expect. Plus, some weekends will be busier or slower than others.  

SW corner of Main & Cameron, it was the White Rabbit Deli for a few months, then was dark for about six months.  Hunt Club has been there since the first of July last year.  Good menu, nice owners and wait staff, one of my regular haunts.  They get busy early on show nights, rest of the time it gets rolling after 9pm.

When Joe Momma's was on its way, there was a multiple page thread discussing its arrival. People were excited and there was a buzz about it. Little had come in the few months before it and the Dilly Deli came not long after, with similar buzz. Now we've got several new things coming, some of which are unique concepts - the exact type of entertainment options people have been asking for, and the buzz is not nearly as strong.

My worry is that the general citizenry had expectations that things would happen faster than they are and that they are now disenfranchised with downtown development. The ball is rolling, just perhaps not fast enough? From my perspective (am I that cat in the photo?), the exact types of things are happening that we all want to see. The ballpark is as (if not more) important than the BOK for downtown as it brings at least 5000 people downtown almost 1/3 of the year. The residential development is also important. The primary reason that downtown is not yet an option for national chains (they aren't all evil) is lack of rooftops. More people living downtown means a more appealing development opportunity for the big time developers needed to really put us on the map.

I don't think it's that there's nothing happening. I think it's that most of what there is to say has already been said in past threads. We've been talking about this for a while. People are tired of waiting. We just want to drive down there right now and have it feel like it should - like a place full of energy and excitement and options.

In the restaurant industry January is typically one of those "slow" months that we have to endure. Without things going on downtown, many downtown restaurants may not be as full as they are in the summer months. I'll tell you this...and I think it's telling. Joe Momma's is having its best sales month ever, literally. That's without a DFest, Blue Dome Festival, Tulsa Tough, or St. Patrick's Day. Furthermore, there's been almost nothing at the BOK in January and only a short run of Legally Blonde at the PAC. I think interest is growing in downtown and that more people are looking there as a place to go for dinner. The Tulsa advocates on this forum have played a role in fueling the fires of interest for downtown over the years. I'd encourage you all to get excited again. The changes that you're hoping for are imminent. This summer will look very different from any summer before. Baseball, bowling, arcade fun, retail, residential, and a new Mardi Gras jazz party... all coming very soon.

So someone start some threads on these new businesses and we'll round up their proprietors to log on and answer questions.

The Symphony played Saturday night.    Maybe you were just out and about at too early an hour. 

take a happy pill Hawkins

Blake, I don't think it's lack of interest in development, take a look at traffic on this site or at leasts new posts and there's simply not a lot going on with TNF at the moment, there are perhaps 10 people who are active on a regular basis here.  I expect it will pick up as mid-term elections get closer.  It certainly takes a bad case of myopia to not see there are great things taking place downtown.

Need to edit that photo, Coco...

It should read:

Optimist:  Drinks Marshall Beer (any)
Pessimist:  Buys beer from local convenience store (Oklahoma).

what are Dust Bowl & The Max Retropub and where are the going?

The local music scene is off the tracks....either the casinos have derailed the venues or the venues are out of touch with the rest the town. Last night we wanted to go hear B. Hass (JFJO) sitting in with the Dead Kenny G's at Eclipse. But, despite the word being 8-12, upon entering found out it was scheduled now for 10 or 10:30 TO 2.  Do they not realize the town is worker bees and not dense with late nighters?

Tooled around Fryday to the Brookside area....all the restaurants were busy (don't know why) and the bars were sparsely occupied at 9. 18th and Boston was so so....same on 15th.

Mid town has more bars and restaurants than actual patrons....so, why would downtown be busy? Nobody lives there and the real action is at Hard Rock and Riverspirit Harrahs...

If downtown were to be saved through entertainment, the city should have made a deal to put the casinos down there...oh well.

FOTD, downtown still has the largest concentration of bars/clubs in Tulsa with the places in Blue Dome and Brady.  Brookside has a comparable number though and then you have a few places in SoBo and Cherry Street.  The emergence of Brookside and now SoBo as nightlife districts has definitely had an impact on downtown's nightlife scene.  I think though as more restaurants open in Blue Dome and also in Brady you will see a few more bars or nightclubs open.  Something like Bricktown's Skyy Bar with a rooftop patio would actually be a nice addition.  Or Tulsa could go more the way of Dallas where the Uptown and Greenville night scenes dominate over anything in downtown including the West End and Deep Ellum.  

Personally, I can't wait for the bowling alley and retropub to open. They both deserve their own thread. and while I'm not a huge BBQ fan, i think a good bbq joint is both needed and will do well downtown.

You set me off every time you do that thing with Dallass, Hicktown, etc.

Too bad we didn't leave Tulsa Tulsa....too much meddlin' by wanna bees who like them other places....move there if you like them so much. Downtown shoulda been changed into Churchtown, damnit.

Did the Thunder win today?

Yes, bbq in downtown! And bowling will be a success. That's in Tulsa's vein.

The Dust Bowl is an small boutique bowling alley going into the space just south of the Dilly Deli on Elgin. It's an McNellie's Group project and is scheduled to open in the summer.

The Max Retropub is a retro (think 80's and early 90's) themed pub going in to the south of Joe Momma's on Elgin. It will have nearly 30 arcade games including all of the classic games like Frogger, Donkey Kong, and Centipede, as well as some games from the 90's like Mortal Combat 2, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and the Simpsons. One of the highlights of the pub will be the skee-ball lanes (where you can trade your tickets for beer). The Max will also have a small menu of gourmet junk food like nachos, hot-dogs, popcorn, and pretzels. The bar will boast the largest cocktail selection downtown with mixers like Jolt Cola, Tang, Rockstar Energy Drink, Capri Sun pouches with a shot of rum shot into them, SoBe Orange Cream, and our very own ICEE machine. It is scheduled to open this spring, hopefully about the same time that ballpark up the road opens up.

I work downtown and hang out there after work.  I would live downtown if I didn't have dogs and a whole 4 bedroom house full of stuff that would not fit in a condo.  I look forward to having a bowling alley, bbq, and retro pub to visit at lunch and happy hour.  I am looking forward to the Mardi Gras party since I am not able to go to New Orleans like I wanted to this year.  Also, I enjoyed the St. Patricks Day party a lot last year and hope it gets bigger every year.

Wow.  I was born in 1979 and this is VERY exciting to me.  Have you guys been to Barcadia in Dallas on Henderson?  It's got the same vibe going, although it sounds like your pub will have a better game selection.  http://barcadiadallas.com/ The place is popping all the time.  It's funny because it's one of the places where the hipsters and collared-shirt tribes mix--a rare thing in Big D. 

Hmm.. they have Spy Hunter...

I'd say the Retropub and Bowling Alley also deserve their own threads.  I'll see if I can get some pics of the ballpark to update that thread, which I am surprised hasn't stayed very up to date.  The BOK Center had all sorts of photo updates, why not the ballpark?  Although the Elgin construction north of Archer has made it difficult to take pics.

I will see if I can get some ballpark pics. The construction has hampered it greatly. Roads are closed even on the north side of I-44


Here is one pic I just got off a website:
(http://ydnasnillum.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/boomtown_storefront2.jpg?w=720&h=540)

The ballpark doesn't get any because they have a dedicated webcam that is 100 times better than that on again/off again webcam for the BOK.  I did better honing my photography skills by going down there once every two weeks.  Plus, it was easier to take photos of the arena; I could park by the library and get in the CC parking garage and go to the top level and take all the photos I ever wanted.


The ballpark's webcam setup is pretty nice.

http://oxblue.com/pro/open/oneok/oneokfield

The ballpark's webcam is great, just wish they also had one at OSU-Tulsa or, even better, the apartment tower on the hill above OSU looking at the ballpark progress with Blue Dome and the skyline in the background.

I really hate to sound like a wet noodle again, but I have my doubts that such a project as this "Retropub" can be successful in downtown Tulsa. I will watching this with interest.

IF the downtown area could support such a place, I would think a D&B's would have had their eye on a location there. Instead, Dave & Buster's chose to locate in the ECONOMIC center of Tulsa-- 71st and Hwy 169. This is where all the money is spent, and development costs have skyrocketed.

Retro games can be placed in ANY bar, and some bars have a small selection of coin-op games and pool tables, like Fox and Hound, for example (also located near the center of Tulsa's actual economic downtown, just down the street at 71st & Garnett).

However, they (retro games in particular) quickly lose their appeal when trying to bring in repeat business, which is essential to surviving the Tulsa market, since we are not exactly a hub of tourism.

I think the idea sounds cool, but the revenues will be flat. Maintenance won't be fun either, as buzzed players can be rough on old games like that.

Sheesh dude, why so negative lately?  You are starting to sound like AMP that used to post on here. 

Why stand around and watch to see if something will be successful instead of ensuring it will?  Instead, it sounds as if you spend your money on national over-hyped dreck like D & B's when there are local entrepreneurs willing to take the risk and use imagination to anchor future development of downtown.  I'm curious how many people thought opening a pizza joint on Elgin between 1st & 2nd street was a good idea?  Or opening what has become one of the more respected pubs in the region half a block from there?  All this without the benefit of a ball park even being on the books yet.

"This is where all the money is spent, and development costs have skyrocketed."

Catch 22.

Take a look at the rent factor on those developments and tell me how it looks in another two years if we are in such dire economic straights as you keep claiming.

National chains fail all the time, one main reason is development costs and being over-leveraged as a result.

Keep your "economic downtown".  I'll continue to frequent the "real" downtown.

Hawkins,

I appreciate your concern for our Retropub. I'll be happy to address the issues you've raised and explain some rationale. Additionally, I have some opinions about 71st street.


Our place will be nothing like Dave and Busters. It's more of a bar than an arcade. We'll have a combination of retro arcade games as well as some newer ones and skee-ball. That's about where the similarities end. Our food (small menu) will be served by bartenders. There are no entrees, servers, swipe cards, or children. The Max is more of a retro-themed bar that happens to have arcade games than it is an arcade that serves food and drinks. Dave and Busters tends to be tourist oriented, while The Max is geared towards the locals that hang downtown. Much like an Irish themed bar, biker bar, billiards bar, music venue bar, or karaoke bar has a theme, we do too. Ours is just way more unique (and it can be argued broadly appealing) than theirs.


You're exactly right. . . and we will prove that point by having nearly 30 of them. As for Fox and Hound. I know that I'm not alone when I say that I'd rather shoot myself in the face than hang out there. There is a very strong sentiment in this town that downtown is cooler, better, more original, more charming, more fun, and more of a big city urban feel. That sentiment (held by however many people happen to hold it) is sufficient to keep my neighbors and I quite busy down here....far far away from the "economic center." Tulsans want excuses to go downtown and support it. They want things to do other than just eat and drink. We're giving them some options. As we add new things, especially in the Blue Dome District, we're not dilluting our base, we're just making it that much more appealing and more viable.


71st and 169 sure isn't the hub of tourism. Downtown, however, houses a large number of business travelers, and regional fans of any of the acts that play the Cains, Brady, PAC, or BOK. People often forget that to people who live in Wagoner, Tulsa is a big city and a weekend in T-town is fun. . . and they have that fun in our downtown. Just because some Tulsans are too closed off to realize that the only truly unique entertainment experiences to be had are far away from south Tulsa, doesn't mean our regional neighbors share the opinion. It's important to udnerstand that I'm not wholly relying on the games to "bring in my business." Good bars with good bartenders and a strong selection tend to do pretty well regardless of their accessories. I'd argue that most bars could change all kinds of offerings inside and keep their base of customers as long as the bartender and the drinks stay the same. Additionally, I would argue that video games have no more or less appeal than darts, pool, and shuffleboard - very common bar games. The difference is, The Max has a whole room full of games and we're one of two places in town that does (the other being D&B).

As for 71st Street. . . Tony Roma's, Tia's, Smokey Bones BBQ, Jazmos, Al's Bistro, Grady's, Elephant Bar, Up the Creek, Nestle Toll House and Subs, Coach's, Okie Dokie's, Tulsa Brewing Co., Burger King, etc. National chains with big corporate backing somehow couldn't make it in the land of milk and honey. McNellie's, Blue Dome Diner, Dilly Deli, Joe Momma's, Caz's, Lola's, Mexicali, Spaghetti Warehouse, El Guapo's, etc. are all downtown...and somehow surviving despite being a 15 minute drive from 71st street, many for years and years. I can only think of 1974 Bar and Grill and Tsunami that have gone out of business downtown. One wasn't that good and the other was poorly run, but was doing well as far as customers go.

In closing, as much as I work to make Tulsa a better place, I'm in business to make money. I wouldn't have opened Joe Momma's here if I didn't think it would make money, and if it wasn't, I sure wouldn't go chasing after failure (or even mediocrity) with another risky venture. Our successful downtown ventures only stand to get better with the increased interest and traffic that the ballpark brings. I think you'll see that despite the lack of faith that so many Tulsans have in their city, in a few years, the "economic center" will be back where it should be...in downtown.

Blake, you are the man...right behind you on every point you made.  I have traveled a lot around the US, and I have seen the 71st street corridor in every town across the country, and it really makes me sick.  I don't know anyone who "likes" that part of town, and yet so many people frequent the businesses there, and therefore support the decisions by corporations to locate in a suburban sprawl center.  I much prefer the "ma and pa" establishments that give you the feel of originality and give you something to be proud of when you go (and when you have out of towners you have something "Tulsa" to show off).  Thanks for all the hard work you do!

Some good points made! Personally, I only stay downtown when I frequent Tulsa, unless I am going to visit family. Last time I was there (November 09) I was pleasantly surprised at the progress made in DT as far as restaurant choices and nitelife options (I loved Tiny's!) Also, I love to walk around, and nowhere in Tulsa is more fun to walk around than DT.

DT still has a ways to go, but at least it is uniquely Tulsa. Why would any tourists stay out at 71st? Unless you are from a very small community with no shopping, it offers nothing more that every other reasonably built up suburban area in the country offers.

I grew up in south Tulsa, and rarely go back to visit that area. It seems that most of the new, homespun, interesting growth is happening in the central city. That's a great thing to see.

I think a lot of the negativity about downtown is more habit than anything but I also think there's a strain of disappointment that somehow DT skipped the building boom of the early oughts.  A sense that T-Town not only didn't actively benefit from the last 6 years or so but that somehow it was passed over or ignored. I was driving around there today, though, and it's pretty obvious that within 5 years or so things will be very different, and brilliantly so.  The city  (and IMO mostly KT) has made a lot of savvy moves that put us in line to squarely benefit from the next upturn, and I think that's when it will become apparent -- when the economy turns around and people are ready to look optimistically at the opportunities DT.

Of course there's already a pretty strong corps of DT entrepreneurs right now (props Blake!), which I think is a kinda crazy-impressive given the economy right now.

To Blake: I am honored that you took the time to call me out on this. Great discussion. I do wish you the best.

Some "points" I don't think we'll agree on.

1) You seem to hate Fox and Hound. Fox and Hound is always open and serving food until 2:00am. Like clockwork. Try to order food at a typical Tulsa bar after 12:00 and you usually get told no.

Now I don't know what your food policy is, but you can seriously order a pizza at Fox and Hound at 1:00am and they will make you one. On a Tuesday.

I'm not saying that is the best place in the world, but it is the closest thing to a Dallas/like late-night venue I've found in Tulsa--right down to the Woodchuck apple cider.  ;D  

2)Also, you mentioned UP THE CREEK, Hahahahahahahaha. And a few others that have failed. It comes with the territory I guess when the competition is stiff. What's that crazy new concept over there, the Firerock? HAhahahaha, again, ridiculous. I sure do think of food when I think of hot lava, LOL. Who designed that logo? I don't just rip on downtown, I rip on what I believe is clearly NOT going to work.

Your operation may indeed work, though. You make a good point about the bartending. It is hard to find a decent bartender in South Tulsa, I will give you that.

3) If you are going to put 30 games in the retro hub, however, you are going to cross over from "a bar with games" to "a gameroom and bar." I still worry about your maintenance costs here, as well as use of this space. Perhaps though, you will draw the right crowd, but it won't be families on their way to the ballgame, just adults, like you said.

I sincerely hope you make the money you're after. Is the rent considerably cheaper at this location than at your 61st & 169 spot? That could sure help. There does seem to be a lot of hero worship for business owners that take their concepts downtown. I'm sure you will have regulars.

--

But you other guys... Downtown retaking the economic title from 71st & 169 in 5 years? Hahahahahahaha.

Now all of you harping about tourists/business travelers downtown... have you seen how many hotels have recently gone up at the 71st & 169 junction? What is that Green-lit rooftop thing over by Woodland that just came on? Is that another one? There are about 4 (including the Renaissance) around the Cinemark IMAX (touristy little thing there) and a new one just to the north of the Fox and Hound.

That's a lot of hotels for an area you guys think is over-rated. And in that 1 1/2 mile area between Woodland and the IMAX, that is a Megaladon of cash grabbing going on.



 

That stuff is still on the market?  I remember the ads, all the caffein the law will allow.  It's off my menu, actually it was never on my menu.

I had a couple of cans of that with me on an all night drive to Nebraska one night.  I'll never drink it again, I was a total jangled mess by the time I got north of Salina, Ks.

Things will start to pop once the weather warms up and it dries out.......

Please don't mention the crap that is D&B on this board again.  Ugg that place sucks.

Dave & Buster's chose to locate in the ECONOMIC center of (Right outside of Mathis Brothers and behind Best Buy).

Sounds like the center to me :D

You are such a grown-up.

Me and my kids love that place.

I like Incredible Pizza better for games.  D&B is just kinda, Eh..  They did spend more $$$$ on games though.  Their store is one of those half-assed (oh I am sorry, they call them hybrid) stores.

I wouldn't poke at either store with a sharp stick.

Gotta admire Blake's passion though: "I'd rather shoot myself in the face..."

That's kind of along the lines of me hearing the distinct whirring of a tree shredder when the doors open in front of me as I walk into a Wal-Mart

Okay, it had its own thread for awhile, but I'll not mention it again.

I think you miss the point of their location though. Their sign is visible from 169, and they are located between the IMAX corridor and the Woodland Mall traffic jam that is 71st and Memorial.

I would wager that 1 1/2 mile area between the IMAX and Woodland has the most retail impact in northeastern Oklahoma. And yes, a lot of it is big box, and traffic on 71st sucks. I'm just saying, its the hub.

I live two miles from there, am on their email list, am in their target audience, and never been there.

Adding to the list:
Tiamo's
Mayo Hotel
Buns and Roses
Deli on Cheyenne (is it backcreek deli?)
Sporting Goods store in Gunboat (there seems to be momemtum building in gunboat)
on going cunstruction in the Pearl
Ongoing projects at the bend (including the old tiny bar/818)
Enzo
Snyder's development on north Detroit
Warehouse remodel on north Boston and Cameron

I noticed a permit in the windows of some of the buildings east of McNellies


I'd really like to see a mixed use parking structure in the surface lot east of the PAC/South of City Hall. It would only need to use half of the block (or less) and the rest could be developed for other uses.