The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

Reported in today's TW.

Hotel hitch

by: ROBERT EVATT World Staff Writer
Sunday, January 24, 2010
1/24/2010 4:02:08 AM

Conventions and conferences bring a lot of people to Tulsa — area hotels get more than 100,000 room rentals per year from them.

But Amy Huntley, vice president of the Tulsa Convention and Visitors Bureau at the Tulsa Metro Chamber, said that figure needs to be doubled to help draw bigger events to the BOK Center and the newly renovated Tulsa Convention Center.

The main obstacle to that, as far as the chamber is concerned, is a lack of available hotel space downtown.

"With the new convention center and the BOK, the city's been excellent to market," she said. "But if we're to compete in the major conference arena, we are missing hotels downtown."

Huntley and others are advocates for more hotel rooms downtown, with the hopes that more conventions book space and draw attendees who will spend money while in town.

But several hotel owners feel the issue is more complicated than simply adding more rooms, and some, like Marlin Keranen, general manager of the Crowne Plaza, say adding more hotel rooms could actually hurt hotel operators during the times there are no events.

"At the present time, when many of us are running at below full occupancy, it's tough for us to say that we need more hotel rooms," he said.

The issue stems from a study conducted by the chamber three years ago that suggested a city of Tulsa's size needs between 1,800 and 2,000 rooms to fully accommodate events held here, especially with the events held at the BOK Center and Tulsa Convention Center.

Huntley estimated Tulsa will have 1,340 rooms once the renovations of the Holiday Inn Tulsa — City Center at Seventh Street and Boulder Avenue are finished next month and the Courtyard by Marriott opens in the Atlas Life building in June.

But not all of those rooms can go to convention-goers. Keranen said only 350 of its 455 rooms can be used for conventions, since they also have to accommodate regular business travelers and platinum-level members.

"We don't want to give every room out to groups that come through; we have to take care of our regulars," he said.

Huntley said other hotels have similar concerns and roughly 800 rooms are all that are available for conventions.

Though the high-quality rooms added by the Mayo and to be added by the Courtyard by Marriott impress potential convention-runners, there aren't enough of them to really sway many decisions as she and other chamber officials pitch Tulsa to conventions and events, she said.

"They love that there are more high-caliber rooms; they think the Mayo is just a gem for us to have," she said. "But it's still not enough for them."

Michel Frimel, general manager of the Hotel Ambassador downtown and president of Tulsa Hotel and Lodging Association, agreed in principle that Tulsa needs more conventions and more rooms.

"In order to attract larger pieces of convention business, we believe there should be more hotel rooms," he said.

But he believes that suddenly adding hundreds of rooms might be counterproductive in the short term.

"At the current levels of hotel business, the current rooms that are there aren't being filled," he said. "Expansion needs to be undertaken slowly."

Likewise, convention planning also moves slowly. Huntley said big conferences typically book hotels anywhere from four to seven years in advance.

Jeff Hartman, operating partner of SJS Hospitality, the group currently renovating the Atlas Life building, said it could be difficult to build momentum on either side of the issue.

"We're chipping away at adding new rooms with the Marriott Courtyard, the new Holiday Inn, but what happens in these scenarios is the cart before the horse," he said. "You can't book the conventions until you have the rooms, and you can't build the rooms until you have the conventions."

He said big incentives, such as an injection of cash from the city, might be necessary to bring convention-sized hotels to the city. He said that 119 rooms at the future Courtyard by Marriott are "manageable" and aren't dependent on conventions to be successful.

While I'm all for a revitalized downtown and the increased sales tax that more frequent and larger scale conventions can bring to Tulsa...

Ms. Huntley and the rest of the VCB are missing another big piece of the puzzle when it comes to drawing more convention business...lack of adequate and readily available parking.

Sure the City will tout over 10,000 spaces within a 10 minute walk to the BOK and Civic Center but, they have thus far failed to consider that those spaces are only available during the after 5:00 and weekend hours. Many of today's larger conventions are multi-day affairs and operate between the hours of 8-5 with dinners, group outings, etc held after that.

We all saw what a fiasco it was trying to hold the one and only daytime event of significant size at the BOKCenter, 3 hour gridlock in downtown during morning rush hour and congested shuttle service from outside the IDL.

Hotels are no different, they need adequate parking facilities...to accomodate on avergage 60% for downtown markets where many fly in and then out. Available raw land downtown is scarce and the City has opted to reserve any available parking funds to furnish companies like Williams with new parking facilities, not strategically located or sizeable enough to benefit additional hotels or 'districts'.

One of the biggest complaints I hear from conventioneers staying at the Crown is the lack of adjacent and available parking when the convention is large.  A recent Teachers convention was held, and in the lobby you could hear the comments from patrons having to park blocks away and walk in the rain.  Sure, we invented umbrellas but there has to be more we could do to properly accommodate guests to Tulsa and make their stay more comfortable so they will want to come back.

The City planning department would rather see new hotels incorporate structured parking within their development, but such an expense is very cost prohibitive, particularly when it comes to structured parking.

The VCB and the Chamber need to work with the City to address this issue and then look to draw the multi-day conventions Tulsa needs.

Parking also needs to be addressed for areas such as Brady and Blue Dome as new development starts to take hold...these are the areas of entertainment, restaurants and after hours establishments that Conventions will be looking for as well.

There is a reason Las Vegas holds a majority of conventions...its well planned, entertainment rich, hotel abundant. A serious planning effort with major property owners, developers, hoteliers and such needs to be conducted.

Another alternative to more parking would be a light rail connection from the airport to downtown and a useful downtown streetcar/(real)trolley system.  I realize the capital expense puts this option out in the future somewhere.

While I agree that conventioneers may want more parking, I think if we had better shuttle/trolley service, some of that complaining would go away.  Also if we had better streets along which to walk, valet parking, and yes  perhaps rail from the airport, etc. I dont want to gut our downtown with parking. People who go to conventions and events in larger cities probably have to park further away than they would here. I don't want our downtown to be like Las Vegas at all, conventions or no. Our downtown isnt Las Vegas and I dont think anyone wants it to be. Besides hosting conventions and events, we also want our downtown to be an Urban Neighborhood that has lively, and quiet, areas all the time, not just during conventions and such.  

I would like to imagine a scenario where sections of downtown are very pedestrian friendly, and others not so.  Back to my "A" streets and "B" streets thing. Just make sure the "A" pedestrian friendly streets, and areas, are connected (by pedestrian friendly streets, and or on mass transit/trolley routes). Then whatever is outside of that can be chock full of as many monolithic structures. parking garages, car oriented drive-thru this and thats, as you please imo.

There are certain areas where I would erre on not having "enough parking" in order to both, encourage the development of good mass transit, (you sometimes have to get to the point where its uncomfortable to park, in order to help mass transit get a good start) and to create superb, pedestrian friendly areas. Pedestriand friendly areas that are essentially "fake"  just do not have the quality of real ones. Fake, as in a row of shops on the ground level or surrounding a parking structure. Thats not real density supported by local populations. The area isnt being supported by people living and working, above or behind the shops, restaurants, and not by mass transit. And if you want mass transit, its such a waste because essentially your trying to build, support and pay for infrastructure for both cars (parking garages) and mass transit. Thats very expensive and someone, taxpayers and businesses, (residential, shops, etc.) will have to pay for them. When you try to mix both in one area its not as good as when you let both do what they both do best and most efficiently.  I really think we can jump ahead of other places and cities if we push for really really good pedestrian friendly areas that arent watered down with parking. NO PARKING GARAGES IN THE BLUE DOME, BRADY ARTS, And GREENWOOD areas.  And probably other areas as well. I wont complain if some development goes in and puts in parkig for its tennants. But lets create WONDERFUL pedestrian friendly, mass transit friendly streets in those and other areas. There are plenty of other areas in downtown that are already messes, pedestrian wise, within which "faux pedestrian friendly" and car oriented, developments and parking garages can go.  And I bet you would find that if you create great, high density, pedestrian friendly nodes, you will alleviate some of the parking complaints in other areas because mass transit will be  more viable everywhere.


""Parking also needs to be addressed for areas such as Brady and Blue Dome as new development starts to take hold...these are the areas of entertainment, restaurants and after hours establishments that Conventions will be looking for as well. ""

Indeed, and the BEST way to do that is to NOT build parking garages there, but to build World Class, pedestrian friendly areas that can then be Mass Transit Friendly as well. You address your "parking needs" with mass transit and pedestrian friendly areas. Yes we may want the conventioneers, BUT we have to live in this city every day, its OUR city too, not just theirs. Its our home as well as, ours and their, place of entertainment. And I think if we build an incredible place to live, when they come to visit, they will very much enjoy visiting our home....not a bunch of parking garages and so so, half assed, "pedestrian ok" streets.  

Amy Huntley is specifically addressing the need for a convention hotel, at least the size of the Doubletree DT or the Crowne (both around 400 rms), not necessarily either another 200 rms (Holiday Inn City Center) or 120 rms (Courtyard at the Atlas Building).  The article itself is a little misleading in mentioning those two, as well as the new Mayo, as useful additions to the convention layout downtown.

Larger group hotels rely non a slightly different type of infrastructure than the smaller ones, and while parking is still definitely a concern, the things that would support the kind of environment Huntley's talking about are things like number of flights per day out of the Tulsa Airport, as well as connectivity to larger hubs; a strong taxi fleet to help folks get from the airport to the hotel; and a lively downtown that has walkable or taxi-able services and amenities.  She's talking about going after conventions that are regional or national, and very few of those folks will be driving in.

I laughed at the response from the GM of the Crowne.  It's pretty disingenuous, actually.  Of course occupancies are down everywhere, but it takes years to plan and build a hotel of the size we're talking about, and I can guarantee you that occupancies will have changed drastically (up, down, and up and down again, no doubt) by the time anything gets built.  He's really just protecting his own dominance of the DT market.  Trust me, when anything DOES come into town, if it needs a host hotel he and the Doubletree DT are pretty much it. He's got it pretty juicy, actually, because he picks up room nights off of everything that's down there

Here's a for-instance:  at my hotel, one of my markets is sports.  I know for a fact that my counterpart at the Crowne has everything that comes through the BOK locked down at least through the year.  That means team, fan, and media blocks for: the Oilers, the Drillers, the WNBA team, all of arena football, and all the major gigs that come through town, like the PBR, the Harlem Globetrotters, and anything that the OKC Thunder does.  They'll be a host hotel for the Conference USA men's tournament, and also the NCAA 1st and 2nd rounds in 2011.  This doesn't event cover events at ONEOK field, which will expand far beyond just Drillers baseball.  This also doesn't cover events at TU or the fairgrounds which, while not downtown, affect occupancies downtown.

And that's just one market.  Even while Conference USA is holding its Men's Tournament, the Convention Center will be rocking with its own, entirely unrelated slate of events.  If we had more rooms, perhaps they could've filled their space with a weeklong convention rather than just the 66ers regular season games and a regional religious retreat.

One other quick point:  Huntley doesn't mention the other kind of support major conventions need, and that's financial.  Right now their budget has been slashed to nothing and they just can't pony up the bid fees that major conventions demand (typically the upper $100k's or into the $millions).  This is a matter of direct financial support that our competitors have been happy to pony up but which we seem to be unable to scratch together.  This is an entirely different question, of course, and is something addressed directly by the city and by our hotel motel taxes. 

From the last price I heard for a taxi from the airport to downtown, I'd rather rent a car.  Maybe the motels should provide a shuttle service if they don't already.

Speaking of downtown hotels, the Holiday Inn City Center (formerly the Great Western Hotel) at 7th & Boulder is wrapping up its $10 million renovation and will have a new ground floor restaurant called the Boulder Grill:

http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?subjectid=32&articleid=20100124_32_E1_ThePla284800 (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?subjectid=32&articleid=20100124_32_E1_ThePla284800)

Once the city gets its finances in order I would hope talks would begin about building a public-private convention hotel by the Convention/BOK Center.  If the govt. would finally build a new federal building somewhere else in downtown they can demo the aging, Brutalist Page Belcher building and build a new hotel there right across the street from both the BOK and convention centers.  Then the city can expand the convention center to the east where old city hall sits adding needed large exhibit space.  The conv. center has an arena and ample ballroom and meeting room space with the new addition but still needs more exhibit hall square footage which an east expansion would provide..

All the major ones do.  And transportation costs, like taxis, shuttle fees, etc. are an expected part of the cost of these events.  Conventioneers in general aren't paying out of pocket for stuff like this.  It's usually something they can expense, so it's not a big concern.  

In general, large conventions are tightly planned, hermetically sealed events.  Meaning that attendees really only see the main hotel, the convention center or stadium, and one or two other things, usually restaurants, while in town.  The key is to make sure that those five things are as easy as possible to put together into a package.

As for parking, if you're staying at a downtown hotel and going to a downtown convention, you are parking at the hotel. That means if you build a 400rm hotel, you build parking to go along with it. So why complain about lack of parking at a hotel no-one has built yet?

I have probably been to more trade shows than conventions.  You are usually on your own for dinner and anything after hours. I have been to a few conventions related to one of my hobbies.  That is, of course, on my wallet.  Then you look for a hotel a few blocks away for 1/2 to 2/3 the price of the "bargain block price" obtained by the convention.  The price arranged by the convention is still higher than a no bicker price from Travelocity. Other events for me have typically been a school of some sort, usually in a hotel.  Again, I typically have some time to see the town or go somewhere else to eat.

Taxis, shuttle, parking (if you rent a car) are expected fees.  If they are too high (and I have a squeaky wallet), I may opt not to go.  I know one of my previous bosses was  really unhappy about a $45 taxi fee from Midway Airport to the McCormick (sp?) Center in Chicago.  The next convention, 2 years later, a LOT fewer employees got to attend.

The attitude of "someone else is paying" is one of the problems with our society.  There is little evaluation of whether the product is worth the price. With a small company, sometimes being able to deduct the cost doesn't overcome the cashflow.

Before we tear out the federal building for more hotel space... let's finish the hotels where the city hall building is and the vacant lot where the towers apartment was.

How many rooms will that hotel in the planned $38 million development accross from BOK Center if it ever gets built?

It's only supposed to be like 200 rooms. Not even a dent in what is needed.

Exactly why a highrise 500+ room convention hotel is needed instead.  If it can be built on the Towerview site or, even better, the Page Belcher site, it needs to happen for Tulsa to be on par with cities our size and slightly bigger as far as conventions go.

Did we miss an opportunity with the tribal casinos?  Imagine the Hard Rock Casino downtown.  I'm sure many of its rooms are/would be accounted for by patrons of the casino but it certainly would have contributed to the aggregate downtown and would have contributed to the synergy.  I wonder if there's an opportunity for one of them to develop another one.  Don't the 'nation' boundaries of the Creek and Cherokee intersect downtown?

With the current sales tax crunch we are experiencing, the LAST thing we need right now is ANOTHER damn casino in the area.

The meeting of creek, cherokee and osage boundaries is north of downtown.

The tribes don't own land downtown and it's a long process from buying land to being able to build a casino.

The intersection of the three tribes is one block east of the election board. The dividing lines are basically Edison and Elwood. There is now an expressway right over the dividing line.

East of Elwood is Cherokee land, and west is Creek to the south and Osage to the north.

I have always wanted to build something called Three Tribes on that spot of land...a Three Tribes Museum...a Three Tribes Casino...

3 tribes recycling?

Scott, I saw your comment regarding parking and why a 400rm hotel would not build itself sufficient parking.  The reason is the cost.  Most hotel's operating proformas can not swallow the cost (average $18,000/space for structured parking).  Urban market hotels can, however, perform with less numbers of parking spaces than their suburban counterparts.  Most typically they can operate on as little as 60% parking requirements since most urban customers shuttle from airport to hotel, to work (close by) and back again.

There is a distinct feasibility gap in the downtown market.  For hotels, that gap can be covered using tax credits, abatements and such which could also help on the parking costs, so long as it still works in the operating proforma.  Today, most hotels being developed are falling into the mid-tier, limited service markets that can not get close to covering the cost of structured parking.

The other problem is procurring enough surrounding land for parking, even structured.

Interesting.  Anyone know who paid for the parking garage next to the Courtyard Marriott which sits adjacent to the Ford Center in OKC?   Seems like it's used for more than just the Hotel but that is where guests park too.