The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

So the carpenters union (of Arkansas), which has been protesting every job they bid on and don't get, has been protesting the University of Tulsa since 2008-9 over losing out on a drywall contract at Skelly Stadium.  They hire guys to stand in front of TU with a huge banner saying "Labor Dispute.  SHAME on the University of Tulsa."

Of course, it isn't really a labor dispute, they just didn't get the bid.  They protested the Mayo, TU, Arvest, Southern Hills, some gated community...  Also, they have been known to hire outside non-union labor to protest for them (they did employ some homeless downtown to protest at the Mayo for a while, which is nice).  So they are already a joke in most books.

Today I drove by and saw this:

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_VA8pF1XJAPM/TXp3XHWxoPI/AAAAAAAAAjE/y9HzPI_1DMI/s800/AntiFlag.jpg)

Generally flying the American Flag upside down is seen as poor taste unless there is an emergency (or you are trying to make a political statement?).  Or, perhaps, the labor they hired to protest for them is paid so poorly that they simply don't know any better.  My guess is their attention whoring over missing a contract bid just needed to be ramped up.

Stay classy carpenters union.

Boy, they are really barking up the wrong tree in this town!

Last week the bums picketing (sitting in lawn chairs) across from the Montereau had their sign leaning on a tree while they napped.  This is illegal.  They must be holding their sign, and it cannot be on private property.

Of course, what does it say about a carpenters union
that makes their sign frame out of plastic pipe...

lol....

I might have to inquire!

Inquiring minds want to know.

That's pretty funny.  Like the plastic touch.
(Cheaper that any wood I have found lately.)

Flying the flag upside down is a distress signal.  And I don't understand the objection to this since unions are in such obvious distress just now.  Would the solution to this be to strip unions and their members of their First Amendment rights too?

Of course not.  They are just as entitled to symbolic over the top hyperbole just like the rest of us.

Well, everytime I step away from TN forums for a little while and come back, there's at least one wild, irrational post that deserves a little attention.  So let me ask, are you crazy?

The carpenter's union is "protesting" jobs that they overbid.  You ask too much money for the job, you don't get hired.  But that's not good enough for the entitled fools in charge, so they try to shame the buyer into a different frame of mind, one where the labor is simply paid as much as they ask without regard to anything else.  Fools then hire indigents that have no connection to the union to "protest", i.e. stand around near the signs all day.  Or part of the day.  Or take naps.  Have you been unaware of this ongoing nonsense since 2008 or so?

Flying the flag upside down is indeed hyperbole, bordering on the absurd in this case.  I suppose the Arkansas carpenter's union does have a constitutionally protected right to make utter asses of themselves with inane crap like this, but how long would any other group get away with being a public nuisance in this way?

It grinds my gears, if you couldn't tell.

Excelent Post.....

So you agree that they have a constitutionally protected right to make asses of themselves to free speech, yet they shouldn't be permitted to exercise that right?  Yes, it may be a nuisance and it may 'grind your gears' but until or unless they've done something illegal, they still have the right to annoy you.

And no, I'm not crazy.  Did you wander in here from the TW comments sections?

Where in the he!! were you with all this "free speech" stuff during the tea party protests. Here's a reminder of how this forum looked at those protests.

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.0

Guido, I really don't care how 'the forum' looked at those protests.  I'm speaking my mind here, writing about my own point of view.  I'm not concerned about consensus or groupthink.  But since you seem to have a need to derail the thread, let's look at the Tea Party and their First Amendment rights, or for that matter, let's consider the First Amendment and how it impacts those W###boro Baptist protesters.  It's no different for the Carpenters Union.

As someone pointed out long ago, the First Amendment is a two edged sword.  If it protects your right to speak, it offers equal protection to those who disagree with you. 

Oh, I'M derailing this thread...

Buckeye,
The only way it is too much money for the job is if the alternative is to invite all those illegals that everyone seems to complain so much about to do the work for $3.00 per hour.  THEN they bid too much.

But wouldn't that be contrary to the loudly voiced complaints and ridiculous legislative efforts of several states to try to limit the importation of "slave labor"??  Not to mention the self interest of the businesses doing same importation??

if the customer doesn't want to pay that much.

(Insert all the standard talking points here about Unions, monopolies, scabs, slave labor, right to work, collective bargaining,...)

I remember when I was a kid, probably 10, and my dad was painting our house. Some union painter stopped his car in front of our house and started b!tching about how my dad was not using union labor to paint his own house. Didn't think anything more dooshy could be done by unions, until of course what I have seen over the past month or so. 

Remember, never try this at home.  Leave it to trained professionals.    ;D

RA,
Yeah, and I never want to pay more than what my first new car cost either ($50.00).  Wish in one hand, s*** in the other.  See which gets full first.

All,
But if you are big in business and can buy your very own legislature, you can afford to keep them from passing laws that will cost you more than $3.00 an hour to <fill in the labor blank> with slave labor.  Goes well with that wonderful 16% tax rate, doesn't it Guido?

Remember how just a few weeks ago, those paragons of conservative values in Texas passed the illegal's law that would get rid of all of them....except for the ones that do housework?

So now, your roofer has to do a little dusting.  The bricklayer can do the dishes.  The lawn care dudes can wash the windows.  And they get to keep their cheap labor, and get a little "extra" for their money.  Win, win!!

Bid too much for a job.  Watch your competitor (not necessarily imported slave labor) bid less.  See who gets the job.

Except in some places with Union monopoly laws, it's called competition, not slave labor.

Except in this country, it's all about the illegal immigrant.  And not doing anything to stop the flow because that is how we get the cheap labor.

You know how easy it is to stop illegals if we want to stop them.  (But we don't).  It is so trivial, even a caveman can understand it.  Make it a felony with big fines and prison for the CEO, President, and Vice Presidents of companies that hire them.  Problem solved.  Deep in your heart, you know it's true!!

Even eliminating all illegal immigrants will not stop the competition (except where outlawed by pro-Union legislation) from people looking for work.

But if you take the illegal skewing out of the situation, you now have $15 or 16 per hour bidding against $15 or 16 per hour.  Instead of $15 per hour bidding against $3 per hour.

Remember the John Pickle slavery case a few years ago?  He was "paying" them about $1.50 per hour.  IF he paid them.

To the Democrats, low wages are the problem.
To the Republicans, low wages are the solution.


And this situation shows every sign of getting worse from here on out as we move bravely forward into the new age of post-industrialist America.  Gotta love it.  Or just collapse in complete despair and cry.

Or maybe $13/hr bidding against $15 or $16/hr.

If you think illegals are getting paid below industry standards your nuts.....

Well, if they didn't have papers they wouldn't have to pay the 8% employment taxes.

If they steal someone's active SS Number, they pay the tax.  The real owner of that number will then get dinged by the IRS for not filing enough income (that they didn't know about) and paying income tax on it.  It happened to a friend and his wife, really.  It took years to straighten out. Even then it was only proven because it was not possible for the friend's wife and the illegal to be working at the same time several hundred miles apart.

If you think illegals are making more, then you are either hiring them and trying to spread disinformation, or hiring them and just lying about it, or just uniformed about the reality.  Can you spell "John Pickle" company?  The norm rather than the exception.

What is it with you and that damned 16% tax rate LIE you keep spewing. Are you an idiot or just jealous. Who knows. And yes, I am attacking you on this because I already told you that assertion is crap.

This brilliant and blatant dig at me will go unnoticed, but feel free to continue whining about me digging at others:


http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=17280.0

Do they not teach any math in lawyer school??  There has been reams of explanation on this and you still don't understand the magic of incentive stock options??  Which is what EVERY CEO in this country, plus thousands of slightly lower officers in those same companies use to get their income off the W-2 and onto the 1099, where it becomes a long term capital gains calculation???

And yes, I guess you could make a case that 16% is a lie.  The long term capital gains enjoyed by apparently everyone but you is 15%!  I stand corrected.

And just because you think it is crap doesn't change the reality of the tax code.  Long term capital gains IS 15% whether you like it or not.

Or are you just pissed because you haven't figured out how to "game" the system?
Maybe you need a new accountant.  Even an S corporation can use ISO's if done carefully. 

Geez....pay attention to what people say.  Don't be in such a gawd awful rush to get back to the RWRE script.  Listen to NPR once in a while so you can start the removal of all the RWRE poison from your system.


http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=17280.0

???  Yep, something about Mr. Wet Nurse?  That was your comment, wasn't it?  (And it was Guido who took the little quicky swipe at Cust and Swake).

Actually it's not just LTCG's but rather being paid dividends beyond a certain amount of payroll income.

Don't blame the execs, the inherently wealthy, or the corporations, blame the tax code that Democrats have done just as much to protect as the GOP has with minor percentage changes here and there.  They simply do a good job of keeping the class envy rhetoric heated so that the middle and lower classes will continue to vote for them while not realizing they are still doing the bidding for the rich.

Go to a consumpmtion-based code and that would remove a lot of the BS people use to circumvent paying taxes.  Hell even many middle class citizens cheat the IRS by claiming bogus mileage and charitable giving.

But that wouldn't punish the rich enough.   

That's a pretty bad defense of your tried-and-true use of the ad-hominem attack on people.  Even backhanded.  You remind me of three year old egging on his five year old brother.

Pretty passive-aggressive.  But then again, nothing about you surprises me anymore.

What are you talking about? I am not a CEO of a large company who gets paid through stock options. I am the sole member in a PLLC and any fees I earn through my PLLC, usually through 1099s, is taxable income.

Conan,
That's the "entry level" method of tax avoidance.  And a very good one if the income level is not high enough to justify the ISO.  That's what I do whenever possible.  Pay yourself an annual income - reasonable for the job.  Then all further earnings distribute as dividends.  Avoid the 14% social security tax.

Anyone over a million in income would be crazy to stay with that, though.  Do an ISO plan.  Pay the principal a reasonable income, say $100,000 per year.  Just enough to be convincing that it is a reasonable income for the job.  And to maximize the social security contribution for the largest benefit after retirement.  Since that person is so critical to the operation, grant stock options - which are of course vested after one year, giving long term capital gains treatment.  Avoid not just social security, but get the 15% tax treatment.  Then sell the stock back to the company.  Wash, rinse, repeat.  (Probably more details depending on individual situation, but you get the gist.)

Guido,
I haven't spent much time looking at pllc, so don't know the benefits - does Oklahoma require it for lawyers - some states do.??  But last I looked and talking to my accountant, it is my understanding that it is much more difficult (impossible) to do iso's with that form.  

And if you get situated to save that extra 20% a year, I expect to be paid a one time $250,000 consulting fee.  (You will be saving about most of that every year from now on!)

Best of all you don't have to be CEO of big corporation.

It's not required to be a PLLC/LLC in Oklahoma. But I will speak to my accountant about this, and if necessary I can draft my own formation documents. Fortunately, I have only been "rich" for about three years now so we will see if there is something different I can do.

I don't think you have to be rich to enjoy the benefits of our obscenely unfair tax system.
I am working hard to benefit from those laws!  With extremely limited success (actually none at all so far.)

Good luck!!  Seriously!

(But I still hope they change the laws - just like Warren Buffet!)

Believe it or not I am open-minded to advice from those I have strong opposition to in general. But as a victim of horrific tax advice in the past, which resulted in a huge pain in the @ss audit, I have to make sure things are above board.

Um guys, I'm bad as anyone about thread drift, but let's get back O/T or start a new thread on tax advice.

Hmmmm....how can I tie the tax discussion to the flying of the American flag??
Let me think...

Ok,...I got nothing....

I saw some picketers the other day at corner of 61st and Yale in front of the pink hospital (St. Francis - but I always think of it as the pink hospital).  When you see guys like that, if you are a true patriot, you gotta be happy that they are there, PROVING the promise and reality of this GREAT country!!  There may be hope after all - no government goon has even come up to them and opened up with a machine gun!  Unlike Libya....



By the way, Guido, I am not an accountant, but I do see what executives in C and S corps are doing, so I'm thinking it will work for me, too when I get there.  And ditto on that bad tax advice triggering full body cavity explorations.  They go up every orifice you got, plus 3 you never knew you had!!

Opinion moment;  IRS is a good ole fashioned, down home, honest to goodness Biblical style abomination.  When it is abolished, the return of the United States of America may be at hand!

Remember, that if you build a new house, or remodel an existing one, and you hire out the work, these are the people that may do the work, and the only thing they may care about is what goes into their pocket. I went through that 13 years ago having a new house built, and the crappy work that was done then.

You must have used Home Creations as your builder.....

Sad.

1. They have a right to fly the flag upside down, it is simply a turd move.  Plus, at this point they are simply harassing not protesting and there NEVER was a labor dispute.  They didn't get the job.

2. Who said anything about illegal immigrants?  Did the winning bidder get busted on this job?  Or any other?  In our previous discussions the winning bidder posted the standard wage rate and it was fairly high - the union refused to discuss their wage rates.  The illegal angle is just unfounded here.

It's just a favorite talking point by one or more on TNF.

Yep.

Illegals are an integral part of the economy and definitely participants in construction as well as many other industries.

Wouldn't it be nice if this country that pounds its chest and trumpets so much about be a country that respects the "rule of law" would actually enforce its laws??  And if those laws are inadequate, make the penalties for those encouraging the illegal behavior serious enough to end the behavior.  The Oklahoma law took a shot at it.  Didn't stick.  Must be on federal level.

So what you're saying is that the union is harassing TU because the federal government doesn't have a workable immigration policy? 

Oh I didn't realize that. They should make their sign more clear.  I though they were pretending it was a "labor dispute."

I thought this was a really interesting response about the bid process.  IMO it mistakenly assumes that the process ends with the award of the bid.  The free market allows for all sorts of innovation to claw business back or to shape the environment in which future bids are issued.  This happens to be a relatively innovative way to do both.  Whether it succeeds is a different matter, but it's undeniably a marketing strategy.

You don't have to award a bid to the lowest bidder and you don't have to award a bid to someone you like. I think it's interesting that we think there's a "fair" way to compete for the bid and an "unfair" way, and that by mounting shady street protests it steps outside the allowable bounds. 

They are employing tactics not much different than how the mob does things: intimidation. 

"Employ us or we will send homeless people to protest on or near your property for the next several years."

Oh, and Buckeye, I like the way you summarized it: "Protesting jobs they overbid."

Nor does one have to accept a bid just because it's union.  Well, at least not in every location.

A purchasing agent once told me to get 5 bids.  Throw out both the highest and lowest bids.  Then choose among the middle priced ones.

It could be worse, like these strong arm tactics yesterday, from the Wall Street Journal:

Dated March 28, 2011, the letter is addressed to "DEAR UNION GROVE AREA BUSINESS OWNER/MANAGER," in Racine County. And it begins with this warm greeting: "It is unfortunate that you have chosen 'not' to support public workers rights in Wisconsin. In recent past weeks you have been offered a sign(s) by a public employee(s) who works in one of the state facilities in the Union Grove area. These signs simply said 'This Business Supports Workers Rights,' a simple, subtle and we feel non-controversial statement given the facts at this time."

The letter is signed by Jim Parrett, the "Field Rep." for Council 24 of the American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees, which is the most powerful union in the AFL-CIO.

The missive concludes by noting that, "With that we'd ask that you reconsider taking a sign and stance to support public employees in this community. Failure to do so will leave us no choice but do [sic] a public boycott of your business. And sorry, neutral means 'no' to those who work for the largest employer in the area and are union members."

And this is why I will never, ever, use union labor for anything for the rest of my years.

Because they're all evil evil evil and whatever one does means the rest of 'em will do. 

And I'm not suggesting they should.  And I'm also not suggesting that it's good or right to take it to this extreme . . . or to break legs (which is really what the Mob does, rather than, you know, picketing a job site).  My point was that we choose not to see this as a market force in action because it seems impolite and somehow against the rules or against etiquette.  I've come up against a similar level of dirty-fighting in my industry recently, too, and I have to remind myself that so long as it isn't illegal it's "legitimate competition." 

So what you are saying is what the Wisconsin unions are doing is evil then; correct? How about the Indiana AWOLers? They "evil evil evil" also?

Maybe some of the affected businesses should picket the Union Hall protesting high prices and whatever else they could prove in court.  That would be relatively novel in recent times.  I don't know if it has been done to any significant level in the past.

Haven't read all the posts on here but imo I am glad this union group is in town.  First off they are hiring people and its money coming into the city and state from elsewhere.  Secondly its great advertising for the businesses they are protesting in front of.  (Apparently they are under some absolutely absurd and silly notion that the people in this very conservative state are on the unions side? lol)  Everyone in town already knows what this group is about and could care less at this point BUT it is good, free, attention getting, advertising.  As soon as I have something that I will be building and needing sheetrock for I will hand them a card and ask them to come protest in front of my business.  It would be a way of employing people, and not on my dime, and hey are good at catching your eye so it would be some great free advertisement. Win win  ;D  I think everyone should do this and I hope the union keeps this up for many years to come.

Why picket them?  They might leave. The businesses are on the whole only being positively affected. Its good advertisment and hiring the protesters is putting money into the local economy.  Lets hope for more protesters. 

Clever take.

I have to admit, I hadn't thought about it that way.  Maybe it's not so bad after all.

There are more public employees in the United States than nearly every other industry.  I have very conservative friends who get a government job and quickly stop whining about governmental waste.  Not because they realize it isn't horribly wasteful, on the contrary; they realize the gig is sweet when they get in on it.  Something is wrong when working for the government is considered superior to the public sector across the board.

I digress -

great take on the Union operating as organized thugs.  Take our bid or face the consequences! 

I'm surprised thew well organized union effort in Wisconsin was dumb enough to essentially extort  a business for support...