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Title: Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs Post by: patric on April 21, 2005, 11:33:22 pm The Tulsa Whirled acknowledged receiving this letter about a month ago, which seems about long enough to determine whether it got swept under the carpet or not...
(re: writing on wall for rules on signs, March 24 World, A-11) That the average citizen doesn't skip work to attend public meetings isn't a reliable indication of a lack of community support for more responsible sign laws. Likewise, the failure of police departments to consistently document glare and commercial distractions in accident reports shouldn't justify a 'lawless frontier' approach to outdoor advertising. The Federal Highway Administration's "Research and Review of Potential Safety Effects of Electronic Billboards on Driver Attention and Distraction" (http://"http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/realestate/pseebdad.htm") summarized the problem of annoying and sometimes dangerous signage in 2001. By then, 36 states prohibited flashing or moving illumination, 36 prohibited glare or impairment of driver's vision, 11 prohibited animation or moving parts, 8 states regulated the timing of electronic messages, and some communities have banned billboards altogether, the USDOT found. Since then, what the billboard industry calls "spectacular signage" has continued to multiply in certain areas virtually unchecked due to outdated ordinances and lack of enforcement. Only when some of the 'good guys' like the library inadvertently fell under a proposal aimed at curbing the worst offenders did the initiative head back to the drawing board. If there is any writing on the walls, it would certainly be that any sign operators interpreting the regrouping of INCOG's reforms as a greenlight to more stroboscopic Vegas-strip eyesores might find their necks first on the chopping block once real sign inspectors begin enforcing real sign ordinances. Title: Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs Post by: patric on March 14, 2007, 12:58:33 pm (This topic had a number of responses that have since been purged, so please excuse the gap).
Board rejects digital billboards http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070314_1_A7_hThez64288 The Board of Adjustment rejected attempts Tuesday by a Tulsa company to install the city's first digital display billboards. Lamar Outdoor Advertising had proposed four locations for the new technology. After a lengthy discussion, the board agreed unanimously that the proposed billboards would not be in compliance with the city's zoning code. The board also rejected Lamar's request for a variance to the city code that would have allowed the billboards to be installed. Board members, however, made it clear that they are not opposed to the technology itself. Two people spoke in opposition to the proposed billboards, arguing, in part, that the existing city code on outdoor advertising signs should not be adjusted by the board but rewritten to incorporate the new technology. The original application is worth reading: http://www.incog.org/City%20of%20Tulsa%20BOA/CBOA%20Agenda/20445a.pdf . Title: Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs Post by: cannon_fodder on March 14, 2007, 01:06:58 pm I have mixed opinions. Is a digital billboard going to be more distracting than the hot blond in the car next to you? Or the kids on the sidewalk? Or the McDonald's in your lap? Or...
American drivers are horribly distracted constantly. I'm not sure we need to add to the problem, but would this really add to the problem? Is it any more of a distraction that a company with a digital marquee out front - if not, should we ban those? Maybe I just think they're cool - but in certain instances I dont think they would be a problem. Title: Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs Post by: sgrizzle on March 14, 2007, 01:14:50 pm If it's going to be a big flashing casino sign then no. A slow-changing display not brighter than an existing billboard would be okay. It should be statis images that change no quicker than every minute. Kinda like the current billboards that can change.
Title: Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs Post by: patric on March 14, 2007, 02:10:01 pm quote: It's been almost two years to the day that TMAPC voted to to close the public hearing on Electronic Billboards and send the proposed amendments for the Zoning Code back to staff for further study. http://www.incog.org/TMAPC/Approved%20Minutes/2005/03-16-05.pdf It was intended that some time be used to hammer out new wording for the Zoning Code that would protect us from casino-type "spectaculars" while allowing more moderate and responsible uses of newer technology, but it appears the time was used to push the installation of more offensive signage that *might* be grandfathered in once the sign code were brought up to date. Title: Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs Post by: grahambino on March 15, 2007, 08:56:45 am i dont think it would add to the already distracted driving public. I mean FFS have you driven down Riverside near the Creek Casino at night? That sign about sends me into seizure-land.
Title: Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs Post by: patric on March 15, 2007, 10:06:49 am quote: Are you saying you're OK with that? Just another (ahem) sign of progress were helpless to do anything about? Title: Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs Post by: grahambino on March 15, 2007, 10:26:42 am quote: im just very sensitive to flashing lights and generally try to avoid them. my point was that the precident has been set. I dont see a problem w/ something similar, but that one in particular is awfully bright and very distracting. Title: Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs Post by: patric on March 27, 2007, 12:55:58 pm Some question safety of using digital signs.
Daktronics says billboards can be a public service; others say too distracting http://www.argusleader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070326/NEWS02/703260303/1001/NEWS Seven 14-foot by 48-foot digital billboards in the Cleveland metro area are displaying a mug shot and information about escaped convict David Green, who is on the America's Most Wanted list and feared to be armed and dangerous. Brookings-based Daktronics, which makes digital electronic billboards at its Sioux Falls plant, is promoting use of the signs as a public service. "These billboards are widely seen by the public," said Chris Gates, digital billboard project manager for Daktronics. "People are discovering these things are pretty useful." But cities across the country from Rapid City to Atlanta are passing or considering ordinances to ban or limit the use of electronic billboards and message signs for fear that they might distract motorists. Advertising firms have placed an estimated 700 electronic billboards nationwide, and a federal study soon will be conducted to try to gauge the billboards' safety. That's good news to Scenic America, a Washington, D.C.-based group that opposes many forms of outdoor advertising. "It's impossible to argue that a giant electronic sign with changing images does not distract you for any given amount of time," president Kevin Fry said. "There is no definitive research up about whether these things are safe." Daktronics started producing digital billboards last fall and says the signs don't pose any more distraction to people than traditional billboards if they're used properly. The billboards are gaining in popularity with advertising firms nationwide because one board can display multiple ads throughout the day, and clients can tailor advertising to specific audiences and times of day. Sioux Falls has three of the signs, operated by outdoor advertising firm Lamar, that can display various ads on an eight-second cycle. The Sioux Falls City Council in January gave the go-ahead to allow the signs to rotate images. In Rapid City, the City Council last week approved amendments to the city's sign ordinance that will force advertisers to dim the brightness of electronic billboards and message boards so they won't distract drivers and pedestrians. The amendments also ban flashing images and moving animation. Existing signs and billboards will be grandfathered in. Daktronics' billboards can display video, but Gates said the company adjusts the signs' capabilities to match how it will be used. The company also works with local governments to help establish sign ordinances to meet the best use of the technology, he said. "Certainly the regulating of things like this is, for us, a good thing to do," Gates said. "Because in our case, when people misuse your equipment, it makes you look bad." Opponents say the signs, whether they display stationary images, flash images or use moving video, are dangerous because they naturally attract more attention. Fry pointed to a National Highway Traffic Safety Administration study on driver behavior released last year that found distractions in which a driver spent more than two seconds looking away from the road contributed to 22 percent of overall road accidents. Gates pointed to other studies that found drivers are most distracted by things inside the car such as cell phones, radios and food. "They basically find that there are a very small number of things outside the vehicle that are distracting to drivers," he said. The Federal Highway Administration recently announced a $150,000 study to evaluate the safety of electronic billboards. Gates said Daktronics probably will be involved with any study on the technology. "We want to make sure everyone has a say in how these things are used," Gates said. "It helps us to understand what type of product we need to develop." Title: Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs Post by: patric on March 27, 2007, 01:00:55 pm Bill would shelter unsightly billboards
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-03-25-billboards-bill_N.htm WASHINGTON — A bill the Senate takes up today to provide emergency funds for military operations and Katrina victims also would help billboard advertisers that donated tens of thousands of dollars to Democrats and Republicans for the 2006 election. A provision tucked into the $122 billion measure at the request of Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., would exempt older billboards in 13 Southern states, stretching from Florida to New Mexico, from regulation under the 1965 Highway Beautification Act. The provision would let billboard companies rebuild signs damaged by hurricanes even if the new ones violate laws regulating the size and placement of outdoor advertising. Reid says he's trying to protect the rights of businesses hurt by the storms: "Why shouldn't they be able to replace their property like anybody else?" Kevin Fry of Scenic America, a non-profit group that opposes Reid's move, says there's a good reason: The billboards are eyesores that would be barred today. Fry says Reid's efforts would be "a grotesque weakening" of the Highway Beautification Act, a legacy of President Lyndon Johnson's wife, Lady Bird. It lets states regulate billboards along federal highways. Fry says states often prohibit signs that are too large, too close together or located along rural and scenic routes. About 75,000 signs built before the regulations remain, Fry says: "It's the worst kind of blight." Hurricanes destroyed some in Florida and Gulf Coast states in 2004 and 2005. Hal Kilshaw, vice president of Lamar Advertising of Baton Rouge, one of the advertising firms pushing to rebuild, says, "States should be able to decide," not Washington. For the 2006 election, the Outdoor Advertising Association's political action committee (PAC) gave $143,000 to Republican and Democratic candidates for Congress, according to PoliticalMoneyLine, a non-partisan group that tracks contributions. Lamar gave $70,000 to congressional candidates, the group says. Reid's PAC received $16,000 from outdoor advertisers, according to PoliticalMoneyLine. In a letter to senators last week, Reid said the exemption "is a matter of personal importance to me." develop." Title: Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs Post by: patric on May 14, 2007, 09:46:04 pm Take a look at what Boston did with their sign ordinance:
http://cityofboston.gov/bra/pdf/ZoningCode/Article11.pdf Look at section 11-7 on page 7. Electronic signs are prohibited except in a few specific entertainment districts, and cannot be operated between 3:00AM and 7:00AM, luminance is limited to 500 candella per square meter among other restrictions and guidelines. This code was written for electronic signs in an urban context, not billboards out along the highway. Title: Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs Post by: patric on October 18, 2007, 12:03:59 pm The City Council on Thursday is expected to approve a moratorium on construction of new LED signs and billboards until May 1.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/common/printerfriendlystory.aspx?articleID=071018_1_A11_hTheC35421 Councilor Bill Martinson suggested the moratorium as a temporary solution until the Sign Advisory Board can complete drafting regulations for the new type of light-emitting diode signs that are popping up across the city. Councilor Bill Christiansen said he was driving on Yale Avenue recently when he was startled by a new LED sign. "The light hit me, and it was flashing, and it took my night vision, as far as driving my car," he said. "It was tremendously bright. It's just amazing how bright they are." Shannon Benge, the city's inspection services manager, said the issue arose after the Board of Adjustment asked for a recommendation during an appeal of a case in which the board denied the sign. For the last few months, Benge and the Sign Advisory Board have researched how other cities deal with LED signs and billboards but have found no common method. The main issue is finding a way to measure the light emitted by the signs, she said. Traditional light meters don't work on the LED signs, she added. Benge said the city recently found a piece of equipment for $3,000 that can measure both static lights and lights in motion emitted by LED signs. Being able to measure the light "was the big stumbling block," she said. She said draft language of regulations to be added to the city's zoning ordinances is being reviewed by the city's Planning Commission and Legal Department. Title: Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs Post by: Wilbur on October 18, 2007, 07:31:09 pm I think it would just be easier if people would pay attention to driving. What a concept!
Title: Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs Post by: patric on October 22, 2007, 10:47:22 am quote: It would be nice, but sometimes we cant sit around and hope for a happy ending. You have to work with what you've got to improve your situation and sometimes that comes in the form of taking small steps in the right direction. Putting rational restraints on outdoor advertising illumination improves both our real safety and our quality of life. We've seen how the sign industry regulates itself, now it's time to hear from the people who have to live under them. I dont consider a dazzling stroboscopic distraction in traffic or a giant-screen TV outside my bedroom window a "public service" just because it also includes time and temp., but I do consider the brains behind these nuisances to be intelligent enough to know that the extreme isnt always the only option. Title: Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs Post by: rwarn17588 on October 22, 2007, 10:55:54 am <patric wrote:
Putting rational restraints on outdoor advertising illumination improves both our real safety and our quality of life. <end clip> The key word is "rational." There are neon signs all over Central Avenue in Albuquerque. They are not causing wrecks, nor are they keeping people away. People are flocking there in droves. What's wrong with having commercial signs in, you know, commercial areas? Buncha whiners. If you don't like the lights of the city, move to the country. Of course, out there they'll whine about the varmints, too. Title: Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs Post by: Friendly Bear on October 22, 2007, 01:16:43 pm quote: Even after they toned it down a bit, the Creek Nation Casino Billboard at 81st and Riverside is still a major driver distraction at a very busy intersection, especially at night. Drivers tend to be in a heck of a hurry to get into the Casino, and an even bigger hurry to leave, when they are madder than a hatter after having their pockets picked by the N-D-Nz. Their very bright billboard detracts from conscientious concentration on just DRIVING. [8D] Title: Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs Post by: patric on October 22, 2007, 01:28:20 pm quote: As you noted, the key word is "rational." ...and there's nothing wrong with having commercial signs in commercial areas, provided they're rational. Right now the lack of enforcible regulation is the issue, and the Sign Advisory Board has sat on it's hands for the 2 1/2 years since TMAPC withdrew it's proposed sign reforms on the promise that the industry-dominated sign board would submit something better. http://www.tmapc.org/Approved%20Minutes/2005/03-16-05.pdf Who mentioned neon lights? The topic was unregulated LED and electronic billboards. As for moving to the country to get away from city lights, sorry, it doesnt work that way. You can always tell when Broken Arrow is expanding by seeing where the new lighted billboards crop up, and skyglow from cities has ruined many a country night view. Furthermore, if someone dumped a bucket of used motor oil in front of your house, would you really think it was your responsibility to solve the problem by moving away? Title: Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs Post by: patric on October 26, 2007, 12:39:20 pm I had to laugh out loud with the comment made by a Tulsa Whirled reader following today's report that the Council approved a moratorium:
10/26/2007 7:36:42 AM, Bob, North Tulsa 'I just wanted to bring to your attention something that is really bothering me. At the City Council public works committee meeting yesterday, they were discussing putting a moratorium on LED billboards. Here is what bothered me. They called the Sign Advisory Board to help give them guidance on what they should do. The Sign Advisory Board speaker told them about how they are working on regulating these signs so that they do not blind passersby and cause car accidents. Once the speaker was done, the council started talking about doing a moratorium. Then the Sign Advisory Board speaker said, "If I may speak to you as an LED sign manufacturer, please don't put a moratorium on installing these signs. This will hurt my business." I was appalled that the speaker from the Sign Advisory Board ends up being the manufacturer of these problem signs.' Ive sat in on a number of Sign Advisory Board meetings and am not surprised. They promised two and a half years ago to draft that language in exchange for TMAPC withdrawing it's proposed reforms -- I personally submitted draft proposals myself (still have dated copies). The Whirled story at http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071026_1_A11_hThec27666 Council temporarily bans LED signs By P.J. LASSEK World Staff Writer 10/26/2007 The city ordinance also restricts existing signs' brightness. The City Council on Thursday unanimously approved an ordinance that temporarily bans LED billboards until May 1. The ordinance also restricts the night-time brightness for existing and any newly installed smaller versions of light-emitting-diode business signs located on commercial properties. "This is a very complicated issue and has created some potential turmoil," Councilor Bill Martinson said. He said the issues range from safety hazards due to blinding light and distractions, to city esthetics with Las Vegas-type signage. "It potentially affects our quality of life," he said. The high-tech, larger-than-life billboards project digital television-like images with motion and brilliant lighting that flash and flip advertisements. The ordinance will give the city time to establish regulations for the new technology. The types of signs banned include digital and electronic billboards, digital display boards, and electronic variable message signs. The council's action comes at the plea of the city's Board of Adjustment, which has been bombarded by requests seeking special permission to install LED billboards. The board's denial of those requests, due to the lack of any city regulation in the zoning code, has resulted in seven lawsuits filed against the city. "For any sign people who are unhappy about this ordinance, all I can say is it was brought on by your own industry," board member Clayda Stead said Thursday. Although Stead said the technology is "awesome," she also said Tulsa is vulnerable because of the absence of regulations. Cities across the nation, including Oklahoma City, are grappling with this issue and approving similar moratoriums. Tulsan Greg Jennings told the council he opposes billboards in general because he thinks they are "visual clutter." But, he said, with the new technology the city could "have a 672-square-foot TV on the side of the highway every 1,200 feet." Jennings said the smaller, on-premise LED business signs are just as distracting as the billboards, and the moratorium will give the city time to take a comprehensive look at the issues. "We need to decide what we as a city want before the outdoor advertising industry makes that decision for us," he said. Unlike the billboards, the smaller, on-premise LED business signs are allowed by right on commercial property. However, the city lacks any codes to address the light intensity. The city's Sign Advisory Board is drafting regulations that will be publicly vetted before being recommended to the City Council and mayor by April 1. Title: Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs Post by: PonderInc on October 26, 2007, 04:06:10 pm Yeah...every time someone tries to ban billboards, the two people in town (or whatever) who own the billboard companies come to the meeting and say: "But that would put us out of business!"
(Cue sound of little, teeny violins...) If I ran a business that spewed garbage all over the streets, people would justifiably complain, and my business would either have to change or be shut down. Billboards and "casino signs" are the same thing. It's just that they spew trash by design...and it's legal. Other cities have had the guts to do the right thing and ban them. Scientific studies have proven that visual clutter increases stress and has a negative impact on health; other studies show that billboards increase traffic accidents. My own non-scientific studies indicate that a beautiful environment makes people kinder and gentler, while hideous, ugly places make people grumpy and ugly to each other. Let's just make the moritorium permament...and ban all billboards while we're at it. What's the criteria for being on the sign advisory board? If sign industry people are on it, shouldn't there also be artists, landscape architects, and psychologists, too? That would bring a more balanced understanding of signage to the community. By the way, for a facinating look at the impact of billboards and other visual advertising (including a lot of new stuff on digital signs), check out: http://www.scenic.org/ Title: Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs Post by: patric on October 26, 2007, 11:13:59 pm quote: They're shrewd enough to rally their biggest customers and have them pack the council meetings. At one point even the city/county library allowed itself to be the whipping boy Vs. the mean-old TMAPC because they had plans to add more LED signs to their branch libraries. The library displays would have been perfect as a simple scrolling marquis, but for some reason they feel they need flashing animations to announce library events. quote: Sign Advisory Board MEMBERS: 7 Mayoral appointees w/City Council approval: 2 - architects or engineers registered with the State of Oklahoma. 2 - sign contractors licensed by the City of Tulsa. 2 - residents with no association with the sign industry. 1 - person who uses an outdoor advertising or premise signs. TERM: 3 years, expiring on June 30. CREATED BY: City Ordinance, Title 5, Chapter 8 MEETINGS: Third Thursday of the month, 3 p.m., 111 S. Greenwood, Conference Room 1. PURPOSE: To review sign regulations and interpretations, recommend changes when necessary, review materials and standards proposed for signs, and recommend a comprehensive program. STAFF Sherron Wilson, 596-1613 http://www.cityoftulsa.org/OurCity/AgencyAuthority.asp How it works (or did when I sat in on the meetings) is the two sign industry members run the show (being knowledgeable about signs) and the rest of the members just sort of nod their heads... Title: Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs Post by: sgrizzle on October 27, 2007, 08:50:39 am quote: We need to get you on the board.. Title: Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs Post by: patric on October 27, 2007, 10:50:37 am quote: I hand delivered my volunteer application to the Mayors office in May of 2006. Though im not an artist, landscape architect or psychologist I think the notion is worth considering (as would having just about anyone with some backbone). Title: Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs Post by: RecycleMichael on October 27, 2007, 04:36:57 pm I think you should start with attending some of the sign advisory board meetings. I have attended about four or five of their last ten meetings or so.
The board always was very interested in what we wanted to discuss and was very gracious to allow us input during the meetings. The city staff also kept us abreast of meetings agendas and solicited our advice on some ordinances and education. Attend their meetings and you will be part of the decisions. We need good TulsaNow posters to attend all these kind of meetings and help not only report back, but help make happen. I was thinking about going to the next one...meet me there. Title: Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs Post by: patric on October 28, 2007, 12:06:29 pm quote: The Sign Advisory Board meetings I have attended were very courteous and informative, and there was generally a lot of opportunity for mutual exchanges of information. Ive gone on record saying essentially that, but Ive also observed that the non-sign industry members are either too timid or insecure in their roles to be functionally representative of the needs of Tulsans as a whole. I would like to hear that has changed; maybe RecycleMichael can elaborate on his experiences with the board since he's had more recent attendance. Maybe someone with urban planning experience (and by that I dont mean land developer) would be a good addition to the board when the next vacancy opens. Title: Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs Post by: patric on November 21, 2007, 11:54:05 am quote: In an e-mail dated Dec. 5, 2005, ''Stef'' advises (ORU President Richard) Roberts to build connections with future Tulsa Mayor Kathy Taylor, then secretary of commerce. http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=071121_1_A1_hThep42784 ''I suggest you mention Kathy, you know there are a lot of my staff being asked and accepting appointments to very important boards. I am hopefully the governor would include oru in those same areas at a state level.'' Oh, that's how it works. What a surprise[:o)] Title: Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs Post by: altruismsuffers on November 21, 2007, 12:35:37 pm People also used to be concerned about windshield wipers being a distraction...I have one word for this discussion...BORING!!! People can do whatever they want on their own land, its private property.
Title: Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs Post by: patric on November 21, 2007, 02:37:54 pm quote: Would you mind terribly if I stored these mounds of chicken liter up against your fence? I need more room for the trucks to maneuver around the slaughterhouse, and we just hung the extension cord to the new doublewide puppy mill. Title: Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs Post by: altruismsuffers on November 24, 2007, 02:57:10 am quote: ??? What the ??? Title: Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs Post by: iplaw on November 26, 2007, 12:46:53 pm Hey Alt, thanks for all the ugly-donkey Ron Paul signs all over 71st street.
Title: Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs Post by: patric on December 26, 2007, 10:37:56 pm The major billboard companies are working their way around laws regulating LED billboards and digital displays by playing the "crimefigher--anti-terrorism" card (maybe because zoning folks arent buying the "signs displaying time and temp are a public service" anymore?)
WASHINGTON, Dec. 26 (UPI) -- The FBI plans to install new digital billboards in 20 major U.S. cities to disperse information on fugitives or security. The federal agency said Wednesday that through a partnership with the advertising firm, Clear Channel Outdoor, large digital billboards in those major cities would broadcast updated information on a daily basis. Based on a rudimentary billboard campaign in Philadelphia that netted fugitive information based on simple billboard photographs, the new effort simply adds a technological twist. But then again, maybe the billboard industry might be good at finding evildoers... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiOuZWZ1Dac Title: Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs Post by: patric on January 17, 2008, 11:43:38 am Anyone noticed how the "moratorium" on LED signage hasnt stopped some sign companies from installing them anyway? If there's no enforcement...
Then again, LED signs might have their fun side (kids, dont try this at home): http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a77_1197328793 Title: Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs Post by: NellieBly on January 17, 2008, 12:37:32 pm Enforcement? What's that?
Title: Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs Post by: tulsasignnazi on January 18, 2008, 11:23:07 am According to the City's Hartford Inspection Services group, even the signs on the benches are UNPERMITTED and ILLEGAL, subject to removal. [}:)][}:)][}:)]
Kick 'em while they DOWN, Sign Nazis![:P][:P] Title: Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs Post by: patric on January 18, 2008, 12:26:55 pm quote: Que es "Hartford Inspection Services"? Title: Signs, signs, everywhere there's signs Post by: guido911 on January 18, 2008, 12:32:41 pm quote: Now IP, A lot of thought and effort went into those signs... |