The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

There's so many, I thought of a new topic....

This is sad: http://www.newson6.com/story/16520507/emergency-crews-respond-to-wagoner-county-shooting

Chili Bowl Racer Donnie Ray Crawford III Killed In Family Dispute

"I wonder what the grandfather and grandson were fighting about. Strange indeed. And how did the grandfather get killed when he had the gun?"
cherokeeok

Only those four were there and know. My guess is that they shot him with malice. I would if grandpa had killed my son. Stats always consistent. You're more likely to be killed with your own gun at the hands of someone you know. Logic always argues against stats.

I'd like to see those stats, because as I sit here and think about every killing that I've heard about in the past year, only this one and possibly one other was it done with the persons own gun, and the other I'm fairly sure he didn't know the shooter.

I'm not anxious for another gun discussion. To me its like a religion. Any side is defensible. So, for that reason I'm not going to go searching for stats to "defend my side". I support gun rights. Everyone has to make their own decision.

Suffice it to say, that not all shootings are dramatic enough to make the press.

I was just wondering about the stats, wasn't wanting to have a full on discussion (argument) over it.  It just seems at odds with what I've observed.

I heard if first from a policeman. Then I've seen it in print, but its been awhile since I really questioned the veracity of the statement. There's so much spin anymore its probably worth doing. No doubt there are volumns written.

I started looking for some stats and see things all across the board, of course leaning towards the view points of whoever is putting them out.  But one stat that caught my eye was that 40% of all suicides are with a gun, and I wonder if they are using this as part of the "killed with own gun" stats.  IMHO I don't think this should be considered the same thing when talking about anti-gun issues, because someone wanting to kill themselves are going to find a way and this is a far quicker means than most, so it comes across as more of a humanitarian issue on that.  Please don't construe this to mean I support suicide.

I think the correct statement of that statistic is that you are more likely to be killed with your own gun than to use it to successfully stop an assailant.

And I'll come right out and say it: I "support" suicide, in the sense that if a person wants to take their own life there should be a legal way to accomplish that with a minimum of harm to others and it should be legal for others to assist. Obviously, one should have to demonstrate that they are of sound mind before being allowed to make use of that legal mechanism. I would envision it mainly being used by people with terminal illnesses who are staring down a long period of near-total disability.

Do I want people to do it? No. Do I think they should have the right to do it? Absolutely. It's their life and it should be their choice to end it on their terms if they so choose.

I've seen both statements.  But when it comes down to statistics, especially with these kinds of things, there tends a whole lot more behind it.  One of the discussions I saw also pointed out that a large number of people shot with their own guns are LEOs, and this is primarily because they put themselves in close proximity, as part of their job, with criminals, making them a prime target for such thing.  I don't know how much truth there is to the statement, but does give something to think about on the whole thing.

relief from suffering is one thing, and I agree that people should have this choice and those that help should be commended, not incarcerated.  I can't support or agree with anyone who takes their own life because "things were hard." But I also think it's stupid to make it a criminal act to do so, or attempt to do so (in this case, assistance would not be a supportable thing in my books). 

So, nobody here is asking what the hell gramps was doing in the house with a gun having a prior conviction?

Was it his gun? Was it even his house?

You act like it's unheard of for an ex-convict to have a gun.  I didn't really read the story, more like loosely skimmed it, so I don't know the exact nature of it all or if he is even a convicted felon or if it was something else, or if there were other circumstances that might allow him to own a firearm.  However, if someone is convicted of a felony, and it intent on breaking the law again, do you really think making it illegal for them to have a gun is going to stop them from having one?

That's pretty much my personal standard, but I don't see how I (and by extension the government) has a strong enough stake in the outcome to say that people can't take their own lives because things are hard or for any other reason someone of sound mind wants to off themselves. Obviously, the sticky part is defining what constitutes a sound mind.

My general feeling is that I would like as much of the moralism out of the criminal code as possible, aside from those acts which actively harm others.

what is so sticky about defining what constitutes a sound mind?  All you have to do is use my mind as a model, and the further from it you get, the more unsound the mind is.   ;D

!

So far, no word on where the gun came from, TTC.  The only thing I've heard which is so far unsubstantiated, is that the grandfather's prior was for shooting at a neighbor who supposedly mowed onto his property.  Given that, and the fact he suffered from some sort of dementia-related disease, I don't suspect that Donnie and Jodie knew he had access to one and would not have knowingly left him access to one.

I've known the family for many years.  I was stunned when I got the call Saturday morning about 11:30 from a friend at the Expo building that DRC had been shot and killed.  Fortunately, there was a lack of wild rumors and speculation circulating at the Chili Bowl on Saturday.  Instead, there was solid info directly from the family that the grandfather was suffering from dementia and possibly Alzheimer's and there was no "dispute".  He entered the room, shot Donnie Ray in the back three times for no apparent reason, and Donnie Ray's parents both tried to intervene and get the gun away from the grandfather.  In the process the gun went off again and shot the grandfather in addition to Jodie (DRC's mom) being wounded.

The huge shock is the Crawfords are somewhat of a model family.  The grandfather had been living with them due to his illness.  Donnie Ray did not have any drug problems, wasn't some sort of maggot, just a great all around young man.  He actually was to have started classes at OU tomorrow morning.

Just a sick horrible tragedy and one I'd prefer we not trivialize here.

Sad!  Very, very horribly sad all around!

Thank's Conan. I am a big racing fan and was shocked as many were around here. I was hoping that someone had a little more clarity to the situation.

When I was teen we used to watch the stocks over on the fairgrounds and one of the most popular drivers was a Ray Crawford iirc. Is that the grandfather?

Donnie Ray was killed by his maternal grandfather, Daniel Garcia.

Ray was still quite active with Donnie Ray's racing he did quite a bit of the car prep during the week and at the track.  Donnie Ray's father, Donnie was a Tulsa Speedway legend in his own right driving a sprint car in the 1980's and 1990's.  Interesting thing, Aqua: Emmett Hahn and Ray Crawford were big rivals in the 1970's essentially swapping the Super Modified championship back and forth.  The media and fans made it more of a rivalry, IMO.  At any rate, I thought it was pretty cool that Emmett's grandson, Blake was racing for the same team as Donnie Ray this past week.

I've still never gotten used to the idea you can see someone very alive, very vibrant and 12 hours later they are no longer here.

And you probably never will. Compassionate, well adjusted, people and military combatants rely on faith and therapists to get through.

I spoke with an older WWII vet one time who told me a story about sitting on a log in a city in France they had just liberated, next to a fellow soldier who he had just leaned over and lit a cigarette for. The man suddenly stopped in mid-sentence as a sniper's bullet passed through his head. My battle hardened acquaintance was still stunned after 40 years at the immediate cessation of life during a rather relaxed unprepared moment.

Terrible tragedy for the family to lose two ends of a family. My condolences.

Hopefully you won't.  That is one of the things that makes us human...don't want to lose that.

I took a few minutes to do a quick search on Google with this question, "are gun owners statistically more likely to be shot by their own guns?"
Four of the first five results were affirmative. Three of those were based on scientific studies by non aligned parties. The other one was an anti gun group of lawyers ranting and the negative one was an obvious unscientific gun proponent rant. There were lots more. They all ranged from 2.5 times to more than 5.6 times more likely for a gun owner to be a gunshot victim. And apparently, Pennsylvania is a dangerous place to live!

However, they all readily admitted that there were lots of questions left by the studies. They did address suicide and that seems appropriate as the question does not differentiate between a criminal, an accident or a suicide. They are all just as much a victim.


Anyway, FWIW:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17922-carrying-a-gun-increases-risk-of-getting-shot-and-killed.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States
http://guncite.com/gun-control-kellermann-3times.html
http://www.lcav.org/statistics-polling/gun_violence_statistics.asp
http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/news/News_Releases/2009/09/gun-possession-safety/

I went over a few myself, and another point on the issue is are LEOs a part of these stats?  From what I saw none made that a separate point on the issue.  As you said, it leaves a lot of questions to be answered.

Breaking News: Man opens fire in an Oregon shopping mall. 2 dead so far (MSNBC).

There's a third death. The gunman killed himself.

Good riddance - the tragedy is he didn't have the common decency to do that first, before hurting anyone else.  The Slimeball....

Many nuts with guns are high on drugs, or their brain is fryed from drug use.

Looks like someone has made their way to the library today.

I would like them to hang around so we could get some answers.

   27 dead.RYAN LANZA.
http://www.businessinsider.com/connecticut-shooting-adam-lanza-2012-12


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