The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

   Ok, yes I am crazy.  Doing my usual "leap into something then figure out the details later" scenario.  But in this instance I may have gotten in over my head.  

Nutshell.  Saw a space downtown for rent, inquired, the rent was good, have always wanted to have my own gift shop/design/art studio type thing,,, negotiated out what I thought was a good deal with a graduated lease.   Owners did not want to bother with build out so is why the space sat there for so long empty but, hey, I am not afraid of hard work and thought I could do a lot of it myself if the rent was really cheap at first to help me get things done and going.  Don't want anything fancy was just going to leave the floors cement, ceilings are cement, exterior walls are cement and front is glass, needs cleaning and some cosmetic repairs to other interior spaces, figured it would need electrical and heat/air done by contractors and could afford that though it will be very tight and still have to buy merchandice lol.

 BUT, turns out the space may not have been retail as it's official last use.  Was told that it was a bike shop that sold bikes last.  Still working on that.  However,,, the girl with the city who has been very helpful says the last thing she can officially find was that the space was used for a private dance club in 1979.  Egads.  So, if it was not retail as I originally thought, then it's now a "change of use" which would mean that I would now likely have to do a sprinkler system which basically means I am stuck in a three year lease and can't afford to do anything with the space.  Still hoping that some more info on the bike shop will turn up, but now wondering how much a sprinkler system actually would run in case I am stuck with the worst case scenario.

Anyone know of a local person who does fire, sprinkler systems who would be a good price and can give me an estimate?  Not that I can actually even afford it anyway.  

It was fun dreaming while it lasted.  :(

Call....Western Fire Protection..........Local....Been in business 30 years.....Ask for Jason.....

You can try S&S.  They are down the hall from me.  I have no idea what their pricing is like, though.
http://www.ssfireprotection.com/

Hey William!  Glad to hear about this. 

I recently priced out several fire suppression contractors for the Ward Building.  The most affordable was MAC Fire Systems.  They are in downtown.  You can contact Don at 918-830-0970. 

You might also check the stacks at the Central Library to see if that address ever had a retail shop in there, that should maintain the 'use' for the City. 

If you need any other help, feel free to give me a call or email.

Will

  Thanks for the tips everyone.  I will make some phone calls and see if I can get some estimates.

What are these "stacks" that you speak of Will?  Will they know what I am asking for if I go to the library?

William,  They should know.  Its a collection of directories for Tulsa dating back almost 100 years.  They list by address and name of the business.  You might be able to cross reference to see if that space was ever a retail operation in the past.  If so, the City may count that if you can show it.  Its in the research area of the library, one of the upper floors.  Sorry, its been a while since I was there.

Excellent!  Thank You, hope this works or I may end up having to open a wine bar, martini lounge or something like that instead of a gift shop lol.

That works too.

Why not do both?  Put the little wine bar in the corner somewhere - shouldn't have to be very big, maybe 5 x5 or so?, then do what you want with the rest.  No on says you have to have much stock, so if you run out of your 3 bottles during the day, ok, restock that evening.

I have thought about that lol.  But often there are stipulations of some sort saying you have to have x percentage of your sales be from "this" or otherwise you can't be classified as "that" and will be reclassified.  But hey, will look into all possibilities.

There are so many rules that are just absurd.  Was going to make my own sign, then found out that you can't do that and have to pay someone else to make a sign (unless the sign is only a total of 10 sq feet or less).  Also, I was told that interior signage has to be 15" away from the glass no matter what its size and no signage can block more than 50% of your window space.  Who would have thought?  I see violations of that every day!  Not to mention you can't install or change out a sink, even if the fixtures and or hook-ups are there.  It has to be done by a licenced professional and a permit has to be taken out for it.  According to the official rules, you can't do any sheetrock work youself, like say say repair a hole in the sheetrock, again, you have to pay someone else to do it and there has to be a permit taken out first.  It's like you can't pick your arse without being required to pay someone else to do it and they get a permit first, and then later pay to have someone else inspect it lol.  

You are an artist - start a sign company.  Don't HAVE to make more than one or two....

Sounds like you could use an "umbrella" company - something like "TheArtist Enterprises, Inc." (using wording you want) where you could be a sign company, bar, gift shop, maybe a little "repo" operation on the side with TV show - do it all.


As for sheet rock - hang black plastic over all windows, then when you are all done, "the sheet rock was fine, all I did was throw on a coat of paint..."

It's just part of the cost of living or doing business in pretty much any city.  Think of the jobs you would be creating.

  Ok, turns out our official IBC code is A-2   "Assembly intended for food and or drink consumption including but not limited to:  Banquet Hall, Dance Hall, Night Club, Restaurant, Cafe, Taverns and Bars"

Not what I was wanting to do.

 So got a guesstimate for the sprinkler system.  6-8 thou.  Thought, "I can manage that, not fun, but can manage it".  But then the guy said, thats for the inside, outside, from the street into the building... that will run around $27,000.   That, I absolutely can not manage.  

Soooo   A-2 it is.

But, anyone have any idea as to how reasonable it might be to go before the fire board and ask for an exception?  What might my chances be?  How long a process is that?

I would like to do the gift shop/art gallery thing for it would likely be cheaper to start up IF I didn't have to do the sprinkler system.  But if I do, well I can't afford it so will switch gears and see if there is some way to perhaps start off doing an "Internet Cafe" and or "Coffee Shop" type thing that perhaps sells some art and gifts on the side.  Those things will cost more to do, will likely have to get more permits, food handlers, etc.   but will be cheaper than doing the gift shop plus the sprinkler system.

So do I hold on to the chance that I can do my original idea with the hope that I can get an exception?  Or move on and do some sort of Shades of Brown type thing where they do the coffee and such there and bring in some sweets and such.

Or anyone know of anyone wanting to split a space, pay for the sprinkler system, and get free rent for a few years?  ;D

I don't know, working all angles here lol.  Just want to nail down a path and start heading down it and not be in limbo not knowing what the heck to begin working on.

Well, just spoke to someone, that I am sure would know about such things,  about the possibility of getting an exception for the fire sprinkler system... said not gonna happen. 

I can see it now, an art deco themed coffee shop. What part of downtown is this space located?

You don't sound as though you really want to run a coffee shop or wine bar.  What would it cost to break the lease? (Rhetorical, I don't want the numbers.)  It may be worth it to chalk it up to experience.

Well, Chris and I have gone over the International Fire Codes and Tulsa Fire Codes, INCOG, etc. up and down, inside and out and for the life of us we can not find anywhere that says, that even if we change our use category, we would have to have a fire sprinkler system.  If your Retail (M) and not over 12,000 sq ft, (less than 5,000sq ft and dedicated to upholstered furniture and mattresses) store is located less than 3 stories above grade, etc.  you don't have to have a sprinkler system.  Multiple story parking garages are exempt as well (if your located at the level of exit discharge aka. on the ground floor and have ground floor exits).  

We are in the ground floor retail space in the parking garage at 6th and Boston, and our square footage is less than 3,000 sq ft.  We would be between Libby's new Vault restaurant and Boca Loca, facing the park.  

So if anyone else can find the rule and know of why we would have to have a sprinkler system, please let me know cause we can't find it. 

Sounds like a couple hours of a lawyer's time at this point to "work with" the city could smooth the process a little.  Might be a cheap investment.  Maybe guido could recommend someone with that background (if that isn't what he does...)  ??


Have you already experienced the thrill of having to deal with the Oklahoma Tax Commission??  Sales tax permit and manufacturing permits....

That is a whole lot like an alien abduction probing without the warm fuzzy feeling at the end of it.  

Good luck.

Oklahoma Tax Commission is a walk in the park to work with compared to what I have run into with all this stuff.  At least the Oklahoma Tax Commision will talk to you and gladly help you out with any questions.  They make it easy in comparison.  They WANT your money and will do whatever it takes to smooth the way for you lol.  Apparently the city doesn't want you to start a business and will throw up as many permits, fees, procedures, inspections, lack of clear information, paperwork, regulations, can't get ahold of this person or that, let me get back to you, then get an e-mail with incomplete or non-pertinent information, can't answer that question till you fill out this form, etc.etc. in your way to make it as difficult as possible.  According to the rules I have been reading, I think you need several different permits (and there are limitations and rules like, how many permits you can have per year) just to put a sticker ad sign on your store window. Who knew?   I bet all those concert/event poster things people stick in windows of businesses that let them are illegal without a permit as well.  Little neon OPEN signs you see around... probably illegal without a permit and probably some sort of annual fees required as well.  If the rules really are as they read, I bet just about every business in downtown is in violation just with the sign/advertising ordinances alone.  

Check out section 1221 sign and advertising for some fun reading lol.

 http://www.incog.org/city%20of%20tulsa%20zoning%20code/Internet%20Zoning%20Code-all%20one%20document.pdf

I stopped to take a look on my run today. Looks like a good location. I would think you could get some business from workers in the IBM building, if you go the coffee shop route.

The space that faces Boston or the space that faces 6th St?  Those are both sort of between La Boca Loca and "The Vault"

Which, BTW, The Vault's parking is the NE corner along with the deck that is actually adjacent to the building, correct?

It's the space facing Boston.  I am really hoping I can do the gift shop/art studio type space.

 Not sure what the Vaults parking is.

A little render of what I hope to do to the front of the space.  Though the sign may have to be smaller at first.  Trying to do as much as I can at first to get things going on a tight budget.

(http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/5341/storefront003a.jpg)

Before and after.   Wanted to create something that was Art Deco but still modern, hip and fun.  Want to eventually have the place have a very downtown stylin, "NYC urban" feel to it.  Blue Dome area is more "grunge", which is great, but I kinda hope the "Deco District" can evolve to have more high style, cutting edge flair.  Libby's Vault should be an incredible space right in that vein.  
(http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/2531/storefront005ab.jpg)

I'd love to see that garage have cool lighting along it's panels.

The entrance does say “gulag” now doesn’t it?  The chain is a nice touch.

Using the space as a tavern/bar is no easy solution either. Is the spot you've leased within 300 feet of First Presbyterian Church? if so, you would have to have it zoned as a 'restaurant with accessory use bar' (with audited 51%+ food sales) this now involves costly exhaust and make up air systems running above the buildings 5th floor roofline, the addition of grease traps in the sewer lines and the still needed fire sprinklers. Plus the fact that restaurants are a horrible way to make a living :)

easy working within the state/city guidlines huh?

Zach

Was just looking at the front again for a minute and thought that existing door almost looks like and could be painted to look like a 30's zoot suit vest and the chain hanging there could be a pocket watch chain (watch fob) - pocket over in the middle of the door, with top of a watch showing.  I guess it could be a bankers vest - then must be pin stripe.

Might have to weld the chain together to get it to hold it's position, and then brass/gold plate for the effect...

  I think we are good to go.  There isn't an automatic "you have to get sprinklers if you change the use" rule for all spaces.  There are exceptions.  We are under a certain sq, ft. size limit,  we will not have over 100 people (our occupancy load per the square footage to meet the requirements is about 65 and I can't see us having more than that in our little shop)  and there are no exit doors farther away than 75' from any place within the space.  There are some rules governing buildings of multiple floors, but there is an exemption for being in a parking garage and having the right exits, etc.  One gentleman from the fire marshalls office came by and looked through the space (checked to see if there were any evidence that there had ever been a sprinkler system in there before, did not find any and my impression was that that was a good thing) There are some other things but so far everyone that has looked at the layout and such and given an opinion ( not officially for the paperwork and inspections have not been completed or done yet) including some folks at the fire marshalls office are giving me the impression, that we are going go be ok on not having to have as sprinkler system.  So far so good, I am not in panic mode anymore lol.  Had some info given to the "main guy" at the city, and spoke to him on the phone.  He scared me lol.  You could tell he was a serious, no playing games, followin the rules, take no prisoners, don't even think of trying any bs or sneak anything past him for he has seen it all and dealt with all kinds of folk, kind of guy lol.       

We are working away on the space hoping to have the electricians come in this wednesday and get started fixing things up. 

The lock will be easy to change.... ;D

  Ack.  Found out today that the big old underground electric cable is caput and can't be pulled out.  Will be about another thou to just to get electricity into the shop.  In for a penny, in for a pound I suppose.

My next big concern is whether or not the drains work.  Water has not been turned on yet.  Brought some water and put that into the toilets, was an unpleasant odor coming from them, guess all the water had dried up.  But the water just sat there and didnt flow very far down the drains.  So hoping there is not something major wrong with the drains.  Can't be all completely blocked if there was some odor coming up.  We shall see.  Fun fun fun!

Then the next really big concern is the heating and air units.  Guessing the airconditioning units will have to be replaced, but can perhaps wait till spring for that.  But keeping fingers crossed that at least the heating units might work ok for a while. 

Are they rooftop units?  If so, they are likely a combined heating/air unit where the functions are all combined in one box.  Heat can work without air, and air without heat, but really need to have checked out to make sure no gas leaks/burners ok/filters changed, or if electric heat (ouch!) that the elements are ok.  If heat pump, then heat/air are both compressor based, so air will work if heat does.

I mentioned changing filters - repeating here - filters always need to be changed.  Every installation I have ever seen that was not brand new, and then some of those were the worst due to construction dust.  Change before you start work, then after remodeling, change again.






 

Ok, latest hiccup for the new shop....   

We turned on the water at the meter, ran inside to see how things were going, any leaks etc. aaaand    no water.  Went back outside and noticed a new water feature coming up off to the side of the building where there are some plantings.   Stuck my hand down in there and found the pipe neatly cut, pointing out away from the building, and sticking out of the side of the sidewalk.   The plumber said his best guess is that when they put in the new fancy sidewalks they pushed the line off to the side then put the sidewalk in right over it.  The line should not be at sidewalk level but should be at least 18" deep.  It will likely cost quite a bit for me to redo this line.

  Do I have any recourse with the city?  And if so, who should I contact?  And to make things even more fun, I am supposed to open in less than a month and very very likely wont be allowed to do that without water.     

I hope the landlord is giving you a smoking deal on rent.  So far, it sounds like it's been a no-risk deal for them.

I would believe lack of water INTO the space would be landlord responsibility.

Call the city and talk with them with the attitude/expectation that they fix the problem caused by their sidewalk work.  At worst, all they can say is no.  Just keep pressing the fact that it was their work that led to the cut.

Otherwise, should be the landlord, but you will probably pay somehow someway somewhere along the line....