The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

A few months ago I predicted some sort of mall closure announcement (or restructuring / refocus / something) after the holidays.

No announcement re the mall as a whole, but Macy's is pulling the plug (http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/retail/macy-s-at-tulsa-promenade-mall-is-closing/article_633e4cdb-92b9-50fe-9240-1397e2f336c9.html)... out by the end of the year.

I vote for a greenhouse, microlofts, or an OU-Tulsa med school.

http://gizmodo.com/7-dead-shopping-malls-that-found-surprising-second-live-1634073681

Toys R Us in east Tulsa (by the old Eastland Mall) is closing in January, Sears in midtown is closing in April, and now Macy's at Promenade Mall is closing by the end of the year.

Tulsa still has a K-Mart on the east side and a Sears at Woodland Hills, neither of those seem like they can last very long.

Irony:  giving Macy's millions in tax subsidies for a couple hundred low wage jobs so they could build an online fulfillment center and close a retail store in Tulsa.

Macy's is closing 100 stores nationwide.  With Woodland Hills being <5 miles away, this sadly makes sense.  Many duplicate stores have pulled out of Promenade in the last ~5 years.  Mass retail in a brick and mortar store is becoming a harder and harder business.  Add Tulsa Hills to the shopping option and something has to give.  We didn't add a Tulsa Hill's worth of new population in the last 10 years...

- - -

I vote indoor paintball.

Quote from: cannon_fodder on January 04, 2017, 04:46:16 PM
Irony:  giving Macy's millions in tax subsidies for a couple hundred low wage jobs so they could build an online fulfillment center and close a retail store in Tulsa.

Macy's is closing 100 stores nationwide.  With Woodland Hills being <5 miles away, this sadly makes sense.  Many duplicate stores have pulled out of Promenade in the last ~5 years.  Mass retail in a brick and mortar store is becoming a harder and harder business.  Add Tulsa Hills to the shopping option and something has to give.  We didn't add a Tulsa Hill's worth of new population in the last 10 years...

- - -

I vote indoor paintball.

And yet, more proof that building new retail stores doesn't mean it creates commerce.  It just pilfers customers from other existing businesses.

In reality, this is nothing new.  Aside from indoor malls generally being on the downswing, the overhaul of Southland which created Promenade is now 30+ years old and I don't see that it's really gotten much of a recent facelift to keep it relevant.  Any bets on how much longer JCP and Dillard's stay open there?

Quote from: cannon_fodder on January 04, 2017, 04:46:16 PM

I vote indoor paintball.

...on horseback.  Scotchguard some cavalry uniforms and outfit the mounts with WWI gasmask faceguards and your all set.

But actually, Im surprised the 21st and Yale store is the one on the chopping block given its uniqueness.

"This is the only free-standing store of its type in the nation"  says the Whirled.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/blogs/news/throwbacktulsa/throwback-tulsa-sears-had-everything-when-it-moved-to-the/article_ef525501-c34d-5966-a9d1-5c69d72c061e.html

Quote from: Conan71 on January 04, 2017, 06:32:32 PM
And yet, more proof that building new retail stores doesn't mean it creates commerce.  It just pilfers customers from other existing businesses.

In reality, this is nothing new.  Aside from indoor malls generally being on the downswing, the overhaul of Southland which created Promenade is now 30+ years old and I don't see that it's really gotten much of a recent facelift to keep it relevant.  Any bets on how much longer JCP and Dillard's stay open there?

That kind of shocked me at first that Promenade was done 30 years ago, for some reason it didn't seem that long ago. I think JCP and Dillard's may have some more life left in them since there are enough people between 41st & Yale going towards downtown and north and east of it, and Woodland covers south Tulsa. As for them closing the 21st & Yale Sears it's probably because it's cheaper renting at Woodland than owning a freestanding store.

I remember reading an article in a trade magazine called Teleconnect back in 1994, when they were discussing the shopping revolution that was going to happen once the internet was widely available, and that it could be the end of the brick and mortar stores, and you would shop in a virtual mall. I remember chuckling about it thinking it would never happen.

The biggest impact I have seen with Macy's/KMart/JCP closing stores is the effect on the small regional malls in more rural areas where now the nearest ones are now up to a 3 hour drive away.(not everyone here is computer literate, and some can't afford it) We have a Sears here, but it is some quasi franchise arrangement and it's about the size of a CVS/Walgreen's and all they sell are tools/lawn & garden/appliances/TV's and beds.

Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on January 05, 2017, 12:26:24 AM
That kind of shocked me at first that Promenade was done 30 years ago, for some reason it didn't seem that long ago. I think JCP and Dillard's may have some more life left in them since there are enough people between 41st & Yale going towards downtown and north and east of it, and Woodland covers south Tulsa. As for them closing the 21st & Yale Sears it's probably because it's cheaper renting at Woodland than owning a freestanding store.

I remember reading an article in a trade magazine called Teleconnect back in 1994, when they were discussing the shopping revolution that was going to happen once the internet was widely available, and that it could be the end of the brick and mortar stores, and you would shop in a virtual mall. I remember chuckling about it thinking it would never happen.

The biggest impact I have seen with Macy's/KMart/JCP closing stores is the effect on the small regional malls in more rural areas where now the nearest ones are now up to a 3 hour drive away.(not everyone here is computer literate, and some can't afford it) We have a Sears here, but it is some quasi franchise arrangement and it's about the size of a CVS/Walgreen's and all they sell are tools/lawn & garden/appliances/TV's and beds.

There's a Sears franchise like the one you describe in Trinidad, Colorado and another in Pagosa Springs.  I believe they keep the quickest turn items on the shelf but can order in anything Sears carries which is their big advantage over the traditional Sears monoliths.  Funny you mention that about major shopping areas being three hours away.  It will be exactly like that for us when we move in a few months.  Pueblo and Albuquerque are each 3 hours from us.  Santa Fe is 2 1/2 hours and doesn't have quite the same big box presence as larger cities.  Fortunately, MC and I aren't terribly dependent on big box retail and if we cannot get what we need from Raton, Angel Fire, or Taos someone can order in what we need and have it in a matter of days or we can just buy it on line if it is electronics.

Sorry back on topic (Marshall's!) I believe the renovation which created Promenade stretched from about 1985 to 1990 as I think 1990 is about the time they completed the parking garages.  I worked at the mall while attending classes at TJC during '86 and '87 which was the only reason I could even remember when they re-opened it.  In '86 there weren't many stores open yet and I remember thinking their timing was really bad as we weren't that far out of the oil patch and S & L crash. 

It was a huge overhaul.  IIRC, Southland was more along the lines of the big box complexes being built now with seemingly unconnected stores with outward facing store entries, not stores oriented around an indoor walkway.  Southroads was more conventional with indoor entrances but it was converted around that era (maybe closer to the mid-'90's) to the big box type model.  Rather ironic how that worked out for the two centers, eh?

There was an article not too long ago looking at the abandoned inner-spaces of the old Southroads.

Quote
...on horseback.  Scotchguard some cavalry uniforms and outfit the mounts with WWI gasmask faceguards and your all set.

But actually, Im surprised the 21st and Yale store is the one on the chopping block given its uniqueness.

"This is the only free-standing store of its type in the nation"  says the Whirled.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/blogs/news/throwbacktulsa/throwback-tulsa-sears-had-everything-when-it-moved-to-the/article_ef525501-c34d-5966-a9d1-5c69d72c061e.html

I live a few blocks from there.  Sears has been beyond dead for years in this location and I can't believe they've kept it open this long.  They aren't even busy during the holidays.  Great opportunity to snap up some bargains on Craftsman products when the start the close-out sale though!

As part of this round of store closings Sears has sold Craftsman Tools. The hedge fund that owns Sears has "loaned" the company $500 million to stay afloat with their property holdings as collateral. Kenmore and Die Hard are for sale. So all the valuable pieces are being pealed off. I would assume once Kenmore and Die Hard and sold the rest of the stores including all K-Mart stores will close and the buildings themselves will be for sale to be paid back to the hedge fund. It's just a matter of time. Probably well before next Christmas.

Quote from: swake on January 05, 2017, 09:29:56 AM
As part of this round of store closings Sears has sold Craftsman Tools. The hedge fund that owns Sears has "loaned" the company $500 million to stay afloat with their property holdings as collateral. Kenmore and Die Hard are for sale. So all the valuable pieces are being pealed off. I would assume once Kenmore and Die Hard and sold the rest of the stores including all K-Mart stores will close and the buildings themselves will be for sale to be paid back to the hedge fund. It's just a matter of time. Probably well before next Christmas.

You'd mentioned K-Mart not being long for the world in east Tulsa.  It was announced on the news last night the K-Mart in Muskogee is closing.

Quote from: Conan71 on January 05, 2017, 09:10:17 AM
 

There's a Sears franchise like the one you describe in Trinidad, Colorado and another in Pagosa Springs.  I believe they keep the quickest turn items on the shelf but can order in anything Sears carries which is their big advantage over the traditional Sears monoliths.  Funny you mention that about major shopping areas being three hours away.  It will be exactly like that for us when we move in a few months.  Pueblo and Albuquerque are each 3 hours from us.  Santa Fe is 2 1/2 hours and doesn't have quite the same big box presence as larger cities.  Fortunately, MC and I aren't terribly dependent on big box retail and if we cannot get what we need from Raton, Angel Fire, or Taos someone can order in what we need and have it in a matter of days or we can just buy it on line if it is electronics.

Sorry back on topic (Marshall's!) I believe the renovation which created Promenade stretched from about 1985 to 1990 as I think 1990 is about the time they completed the parking garages.  I worked at the mall while attending classes at TJC during '86 and '87 which was the only reason I could even remember when they re-opened it.  In '86 there weren't many stores open yet and I remember thinking their timing was really bad as we weren't that far out of the oil patch and S & L crash. 

It was a huge overhaul.  IIRC, Southland was more along the lines of the big box complexes being built now with seemingly unconnected stores with outward facing store entries, not stores oriented around an indoor walkway.  Southroads was more conventional with indoor entrances but it was converted around that era (maybe closer to the mid-'90's) to the big box type model.  Rather ironic how that worked out for the two centers, eh?

There was an article not too long ago looking at the abandoned inner-spaces of the old Southroads.

I live a few blocks from there.  Sears has been beyond dead for years in this location and I can't believe they've kept it open this long.  They aren't even busy during the holidays.  Great opportunity to snap up some bargains on Craftsman products when the start the close-out sale though!

I remember Southland and South Roads being converted (I moved away in 1998) just forgot that it had been that long. It has been interesting watching the change from indoor malls to outdoor mall/power centers like Desert Ridge in north Phoenix. I think the indoor mall to an extent is pretty much done, they will survive somewhat in areas with temperature extremes but they are dying off. There is a website "deadmalls.com" that has a long list of now gone malls.

Quote from: swake on January 05, 2017, 09:29:56 AM
As part of this round of store closings Sears has sold Craftsman Tools. The hedge fund that owns Sears has "loaned" the company $500 million to stay afloat with their property holdings as collateral. Kenmore and Die Hard are for sale. So all the valuable pieces are being pealed off. I would assume once Kenmore and Die Hard and sold the rest of the stores including all K-Mart stores will close and the buildings themselves will be for sale to be paid back to the hedge fund. It's just a matter of time. Probably well before next Christmas.

Craftsman Tools have been in Ace Hardware stores for a while, and one thing I forgot about the 21st and Yale Sears is that there is a Lowe's right next door and I can imagine that sucked the life out of Sears hardware, what was left, and with Autozone and O'Rielly for batteries, and Discount Tires for tires and Robertson Tire for more full service, I'm surprised the auto center lasted this long.

Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on January 05, 2017, 10:57:52 AM
Craftsman Tools have been in Ace Hardware stores for a while, and one thing I forgot about the 21st and Yale Sears is that there is a Lowe's right next door and I can imagine that sucked the life out of Sears hardware, what was left, and with Autozone and O'Rielly for batteries, and Discount Tires for tires and Robertson Tire for more full service, I'm surprised the auto center lasted this long.

A bit of thread drift (not really since you mentioned them in your previous post) I had my first business transaction with Robertson Tire in November for a set of four tires.  Some of the nicest and friendly people you'll meet.  Great prices too.  They'll match from wherever.

Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on January 05, 2017, 10:57:52 AM
Craftsman Tools have been in Ace Hardware stores for a while, and one thing I forgot about the 21st and Yale Sears is that there is a Lowe's right next door and I can imagine that sucked the life out of Sears hardware, what was left, and with Autozone and O'Rielly for batteries, and Discount Tires for tires and Robertson Tire for more full service, I'm surprised the auto center lasted this long.

The auto center isn't closing. I would expect them to be sold off as a independent chain as well.

Quote from: swake on January 05, 2017, 11:49:30 AM
The auto center isn't closing. I would expect them to be sold off as a independent chain as well.

I stand corrected. Thanks.

Quote from: patric on January 04, 2017, 11:48:04 PM

But actually, Im surprised the 21st and Yale store is the one on the chopping block given its uniqueness.

"This is the only free-standing store of its type in the nation"  says the Whirled.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/blogs/news/throwbacktulsa/throwback-tulsa-sears-had-everything-when-it-moved-to-the/article_ef525501-c34d-5966-a9d1-5c69d72c061e.html

What is unique about the 21st & Yale Sears?  And what does that quote from the Whirled  even mean?  Free-standing Sears stores are not particularly unusual.

Quote from: Oil Capital on January 06, 2017, 08:29:07 AM
What is unique about the 21st & Yale Sears?  And what does that quote from the Whirled  even mean?  Free-standing Sears stores are not particularly unusual.

If you'd have seen the store 40 years ago you might understand.

Quote from: Oil Capital on January 06, 2017, 08:29:07 AM
What is unique about the 21st & Yale Sears?  And what does that quote from the Whirled  even mean?  Free-standing Sears stores are not particularly unusual.

Context is important folks...

Quote"Sears is not in the habit of rebuilding free-standing stores. They prefer to go into the malls," the store's manager said in 1998. "But they stayed here because they saw that with the customer base and the community, it would be very helpful to keep a free-standing store.

"This is the only free-standing store of its type in the nation."

I really think one of the better long-term options for Promenade Mall would be an expansion of the OU-Tulsa campus.  Build a skybridge over Yale to connect it to the existing SW corner campus and maybe an automatic circulator that goes back and forth between both campuses.  Perhaps a portion of the mall could be an incubator for startups coming out of the OU-Tulsa programs.  Another portion could be a clinic for the medical school. 

Quote from: TulsaGuy on January 06, 2017, 10:20:01 AM
I really think one of the better long-term options for Promenade Mall would be an expansion of the OU-Tulsa campus.  Build a skybridge over Yale to connect it to the existing SW corner campus and maybe an automatic circulator that goes back and forth between both campuses.  Perhaps a portion of the mall could be an incubator for startups coming out of the OU-Tulsa programs.  Another portion could be a clinic for the medical school. 

I like the way you think, a medical complex could be preferable than a shopping mall at this spot.  I could see that actually happening if they didn't already have such a huge plot of land they can expand on as it is.

Oklahoma City benefits from a medical research park offshoot from the OU Med complex on 10th St. south of the Capitol.  Something like this could create hundreds of really good paying jobs for Tulsa.

Quote from: Conan71 on January 06, 2017, 11:02:17 AM
I like the way you think, a medical complex could be preferable than a shopping mall at this spot.  I could see that actually happening if they didn't already have such a huge plot of land they can expand on as it is.

Oklahoma City benefits from a medical research park offshoot from the OU Med complex on 10th St. south of the Capitol.  Something like this could create hundreds of really good paying jobs for Tulsa.

May compete with the St. John - Hillcrest medical corridor, but otherwise sounds like a neat idea.

I've thought about the possibilities of having OU expand across Yale since the mid-2000's when the mall started going downhill.  Honestly there isn't a real need for a mall this size in between Woodland Hills and Utica Square.  If anything closing Promenade can only strengthen those two shopping centers.  Some kind of medical complex would probably make the most sense.  Or even a combined retail/medical development, there are lots of possibilities.

One successful indoor mall to outdoor shopping center case study is the Villa Italia Mall to Belmar transformation in Lakewood, CO.  They demolished the old dying mall and rebuilt it on the street grid with the big retail stores on the periphery and two "main streets" with the retail shops, a movie theatre and apartments/offices above.  Really well done it's worth seeing if you're ever in the area.  43rd is already a good connector to OU across the street, if you could punch Braden through from 43rd to 41st then you could line it with stores and have an OU medical component along Yale.  The same for 42nd from Yale to Darlington.

Quote from: SXSW on January 06, 2017, 01:30:42 PM
One successful indoor mall to outdoor shopping center case study is the Villa Italia Mall to Belmar transformation in Lakewood, CO. 

The Kensington Galleria was a pretty successful conversion of retail to office space as well.    Eastland is trying, but not there yet.

And as previously mentioned, I believe the conversion of Southroads Mall directly to the north of the Promenade is a very good example of a successful indoor to outdoor conversion which was an adaptive re-use rather than a nuke and re-build.  It doesn't really qualify as a "power center" per se, but it seems to serve a good purpose for midtown.

Here is another mall in Alexandria, VA that is using their anchor Macy's closing as the impetus to tear down the mall and start over as an open air shopping center.  That would be ironic if that is what eventually happens to Promenade since it started out as an open air shopping center..

http://www.chainstoreage.com/article/hughes-buys-macys-will-convert-mall-open-air-center# (http://www.chainstoreage.com/article/hughes-buys-macys-will-convert-mall-open-air-center#)

QuoteMacy's shuttering of the location gave Hughes the opportunity to act on a rezoning of the site approved by the Alexandria City Council in 2013. In a release, the company said it intends to turn the 1965 vintage mall into a "vibrant, open-air, mixed-use community ... designed to create a dynamic urban village."

Quote from: SXSW on January 13, 2017, 11:55:23 AM
Here is another mall in Alexandria, VA that is using their anchor Macy's closing as the impetus to tear down the mall and start over as an open air shopping center.  That would be ironic if that is what eventually happens to Promenade since it started out as an open air shopping center..

http://www.chainstoreage.com/article/hughes-buys-macys-will-convert-mall-open-air-center# (http://www.chainstoreage.com/article/hughes-buys-macys-will-convert-mall-open-air-center#)

It would be incredibly ironic as Southroads transitioned from an indoor mall to power center after Foley's (Macy's) closed and moved across the street to Promenade

The rumor mill is spinning again. So I heard that Mathis Brothers is taking over the old Macy's. I don't know how accurate this information is. If it does happen I think it would be great for the mall and Mathis Brothers!!

I believe the Mathis deal is dead. My understanding is the property fell out of contract about a week ago and CBRE is again marketing the property.

Quote from: In_Tulsa on November 18, 2017, 08:12:30 PM
The rumor mill is spinning again. So I heard that Mathis Brothers is taking over the old Macy's. I don't know how accurate this information is. If it does happen I think it would be great for the mall and Mathis Brothers!!

Oh, yuck..!!   Gag me with a 10 lb turkey!!   Another Mathis place - just what Tulsa needs....NOT !!


Sounds like I may not be the fanboy most Tulsan's are...true.

Bait and switch
Misrepresent
Flat out lie

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on November 20, 2017, 07:56:40 AM

Sounds like I may not be the fanboy most Tulsan's are...true.

Who likes Mathis bros?
I assume it attracts everyone from the sticks that come into town for furniture shoppin'

Does anybody know what's going in the old Mervyn's? They are gutting both floors.

I believe CREOKS closed on the purchase of the building including the Sky space about a week ago. Sky has a lease and is generating income for the buyer so I believe that use will remain unchanged. I was told the balance of the vacant space would be used for CREOKS Administrative offices and various community medical programs - not sure how accurate the proposed use is but the sale information is accurate. I was also told the Macy's space is back under contract.

Quote from: realst8 on March 10, 2018, 10:02:49 PM
I believe CREOKS closed on the purchase of the building including the Sky space about a week ago. Sky has a lease and is generating income for the buyer so I believe that use will remain unchanged. I was told the balance of the vacant space would be used for CREOKS Administrative offices and various community medical programs - not sure how accurate the proposed use is but the sale information is accurate. I was also told the Macy's space is back under contract.

I'm glad Sky apparently pays the rent because they don't care to pay contractors in a timely fashion, if at all.

Quote from: Conan71 on March 10, 2018, 10:58:38 PM
I'm glad Sky apparently pays the rent because they don't care to pay contractors in a timely fashion, if at all.

Must be a Trump business.  Or Trump University graduate...

Quote from: realst8 on March 10, 2018, 10:02:49 PM
I was also told the Macy's space is back under contract.

Do you know who it is?

Believe it or not it appears to be an entity affiliated with Warren Ross & Elliot Nelson. They paid $1mm or about $5.00 per square foot.

Quote from: realst8 on April 24, 2018, 07:13:49 PM
Believe it or not it appears to be an entity affiliated with Warren Ross & Elliot Nelson. They paid $1mm or about $5.00 per square foot.

That's interesting! I wonder what the plans are.

Big Boxyard

Coworking space?

Coworking space would be nice!   

Quote from: In_Tulsa on April 25, 2018, 09:23:30 PM
That's interesting! I wonder what the plans are.

TGI Friday's















Kidding.

The sale closed. It will be interesting to see what happens!

The movie theater no longer has movie listings and several other stores have closed.  What's going on at Promenade?

https://www.tulsaworld.com/business/multiple-stores-closing-in-tulsa-promenade-mall-movie-theater-no/article_90431afb-11d6-5b17-b277-de774cbf7d82.html (https://www.tulsaworld.com/business/multiple-stores-closing-in-tulsa-promenade-mall-movie-theater-no/article_90431afb-11d6-5b17-b277-de774cbf7d82.html)

The rumor that OU is buying it is still out there but I don't see any confirmation.  There were two statements the new OU president made at his inauguration speech that were interesting:

QuoteAdditionally, Gallogly said he wants OU Medical Center to be available to everyone in the state of Oklahoma, as he said it's Oklahoma's largest and most comprehensive hospital.

"It would be nice for OU medicine to be the provider of choice for everyone in the state of Oklahoma," Gallogly said.

Gallogly recognized the OU Tulsa campus in northeastern Oklahoma and added that he would like to see it grow.

1. Expansion of the OU Medical Center could mean a physical hospital in Tulsa in conjunction with the medical school/community medicine program at OU-Tulsa
2. Growth of the OU-Tulsa campus could mean a physical expansion across Yale

Quote from: SXSW on January 16, 2019, 10:55:07 AM
The movie theater no longer has movie listings and several other stores have closed.  What's going on at Promenade?

(https://localtvkfor.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/life-church.jpeg?quality=85&strip=all&w=400&h=225&crop=1)

Quote from: SXSW on January 16, 2019, 10:55:07 AM
The movie theater no longer has movie listings and several other stores have closed.  What's going on at Promenade?

This board has been talking about this for some time (Especially in this thread: http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=21470.75 (http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=21470.75)). Online is stil just in its infancy and only 10% of total retail in 2017.

In order to survive in retail as a big mall, you have to be the hot new thing on the block with all the trendy places or face a quick decline. Promenade had already been on the decline back in the 2000s before online retail was so huge. Now it's dated and lacking the wow/nice factor to lure in people. Woodlands is still a destination for Southys. Promenade isn't a destination and has felt on the downward spiral for some time.

I do hope OU Tulsa expands and Promenade seems like a good close spot (with AMPLE parking!), but unless they get the mall for cheap, it may not be the best setup as it would require a massive investment to retrofit into medical or education facilities. It's a tough choice when you would only typically save maybe 25% by remodeling vs building new and have a far less attractive building in this case. That is potentially cut down to maybe 15% with increased building material costs right now and the entire mall is probably far more than OU could use any time soon. So unless they are basically giving the mall away or splitting up parts, it might not make sense for them to retro fit. Best turn it into an outlet mall or maybe the worlds first Church Mall! Shop for all you creed needs in one place!

I do see the future of the mall being similar to Eastland, with bigger businesses/churches/medical moving in, but one section at a time and potentially keeping the food court viable. Medical makes the most sense though.

This mall had struggled, but its ultimate demise was assured when it started losing chain stores in the early 2000s.  Unless someone like OU buys it for a major redevelopment project, it will likely take a decade to see it fully rehabbed into other purposes.

Quote from: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on January 16, 2019, 11:58:14 AM
This board has been talking about this for some time (Especially in this thread: http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=21470.75 (http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=21470.75)). Online is stil just in its infancy and only 10% of total retail in 2017.

In order to survive in retail as a big mall, you have to be the hot new thing on the block with all the trendy places or face a quick decline. Promenade had already been on the decline back in the 2000s before online retail was so huge. Now it's dated and lacking the wow/nice factor to lure in people. Woodlands is still a destination for Southys. Promenade isn't a destination and has felt on the downward spiral for some time.

I do hope OU Tulsa expands and Promenade seems like a good close spot (with AMPLE parking!), but unless they get the mall for cheap, it may not be the best setup as it would require a massive investment to retrofit into medical or education facilities. It's a tough choice when you would only typically save maybe 25% by remodeling vs building new and have a far less attractive building in this case. That is potentially cut down to maybe 15% with increased building material costs right now and the entire mall is probably far more than OU could use any time soon. So unless they are basically giving the mall away or splitting up parts, it might not make sense for them to retro fit. Best turn it into an outlet mall or maybe the worlds first Church Mall! Shop for all you creed needs in one place!

I do see the future of the mall being similar to Eastland, with bigger businesses/churches/medical moving in, but one section at a time and potentially keeping the food court viable. Medical makes the most sense though.

They could look at what Westminster CO is doing with their old mall.  This is what the mall used to look like 5 years ago:
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7c/48/15/7c481516d689e218e639fc9293c816b6.jpg)

Then they demolished it (except for JC Penney which is still open..for now):
(https://www.cnu.org/sites/default/files/westminster-site.jpg)

And this is the redevelopment plan of which two of the mixed-use buildings are already under construction as well as a hotel and an Alamo Drafthouse:
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/jMf5KLspow4/maxresdefault.jpg)

Quote from: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on January 16, 2019, 11:58:14 AM
This board has been talking about this for some time (Especially in this thread: http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=21470.75 (http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=21470.75)). Online is stil just in its infancy and only 10% of total retail in 2017.

In order to survive in retail as a big mall, you have to be the hot new thing on the block with all the trendy places or face a quick decline. Promenade had already been on the decline back in the 2000s before online retail was so huge. Now it's dated and lacking the wow/nice factor to lure in people. Woodlands is still a destination for Southys. Promenade isn't a destination and has felt on the downward spiral for some time.

I do hope OU Tulsa expands and Promenade seems like a good close spot (with AMPLE parking!), but unless they get the mall for cheap, it may not be the best setup as it would require a massive investment to retrofit into medical or education facilities. It's a tough choice when you would only typically save maybe 25% by remodeling vs building new and have a far less attractive building in this case. That is potentially cut down to maybe 15% with increased building material costs right now and the entire mall is probably far more than OU could use any time soon. So unless they are basically giving the mall away or splitting up parts, it might not make sense for them to retro fit. Best turn it into an outlet mall or maybe the worlds first Church Mall! Shop for all you creed needs in one place!

I do see the future of the mall being similar to Eastland, with bigger businesses/churches/medical moving in, but one section at a time and potentially keeping the food court viable. Medical makes the most sense though.

For perspective, the huge renovation which turned the old Southland into Promenade happened in 1985-86 so its current incarnation is now 33-34 years old.

The last big renovation would have been when Foley's (Macy's) was added in 1996. That when the big parking garage in the back was added and the movie theater moved and expanded.

JC Penny probably isn't going to last real long either, their stock is down in the $1 range.

That would be much better than OU-Tulsa turning it into part of its campus or a hospital.  I would love to see the Dillard's and the parking garage on the south side survive, with some retail fronting 41st & Yale, but rest leveled to become a mix of office, apartments and townhouses.

Quote from: DTowner on January 16, 2019, 02:54:44 PM
That would be much better than OU-Tulsa turning it into part of its campus or a hospital.  I would love to see the Dillard's and the parking garage on the south side survive, with some retail fronting 41st & Yale, but rest leveled to become a mix of office, apartments and townhouses.

Absolutely.  Maybe it's a mix of student housing and office buildings along Yale across the street from campus that tie into the existing light/crosswalk at 43rd.  OU can then lease space as needed. 

Extend Braden Ave. north of 43rd to connect to 41st with a new light/crosswalk creating a connection to Southroads.  Line Braden with retail and restaurant space that utilizes the existing garages and connects to Dillard's as the remaining department store anchor.  Maybe integrate something unique like an Alamo Drafthouse movie theater or a hotel to create a destination.

Quote from: DTowner on January 16, 2019, 02:54:44 PM
That would be much better than OU-Tulsa turning it into part of its campus or a hospital.  I would love to see the Dillard's and the parking garage on the south side survive, with some retail fronting 41st & Yale, but rest leveled to become a mix of office, apartments and townhouses.

I seem to recall the inverse; a childrens hospital campus being turned into a big shopping cluster alongside Skelly Drive.  Really rockin.
/s

Apparently they have new tenants to replace some of the vacancies and a new operator of the theater:

QuoteNew tenants headed to Promenade mall after movie theater, retailers close


The Tulsa Promenade is in the midst of a tenant transition.

The midtown mall, located near 41st Street and Yale Avenue, has several new tenants coming in to fill current and upcoming vacancies.

"We are getting new tenants in, and we are being able to stabilize the tenants who are here," General Manager Veronica Butts said Wednesday.


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"We had great Christmas traffic, and we have Christmas vendors that were here that are going to come back full time. They are from out of state, which is good to see," she said.

Abby's Jewelry will be moving into a space left vacant with the recent closing of Zales Jewelry, and a candy store is going to be opening in the former location of Kay Jewelers.

Other recent additions to the mall include Brenda's Bridal and Rental, which opened in January, and Selah Model and Co., which opened in October.

Hollywood Theaters Palace 12, which was owned by Regal Cinemas, closed Sunday.

The movie theater is set to reopen under new management within two weeks, Butts said.

Two national retailers, American Eagle Outfitters and Charlotte Russe, are planning to close soon. Butts said those spaces have been leased, and new stores should be opening in those spaces by mid-February.

She declined to name the new theater management company or the new tenants opening storefronts in the mall.

With the closing of Macy's in 2017, Tulsa Promenade lost one of its anchor stores, leaving J.C. Penney and Dillard's as the remaining large tenants.

The Macy's store has been purchased by a broker, Butts said, and there is currently a contract on the space. She said she couldn't say who the prospective tenant was.

Last year, CREOKS Behavioral Health Services moved its Tulsa clinic to the Tulsa Promenade mall, renovating 40,000 square feet of the old Mervyn's location. Part of that space had already been transformed into Sky Fitness.

Tulsa Promenade was sold in 2013 to a New York real estate investor. In 2016, mall owners Tulsa Promenade Realty Management LLC refinanced its commercial mortgage.

Butts said there have been rumors that the mall has been sold again, but that is incorrect.

"The mall has not been sold," Butts said.

According to a note left on the Zales storefront, customers should contact the Woodland Hills Mall location for layaways, online orders, repairs and special orders.

https://www.tulsaworld.com/business/new-tenants-headed-to-promenade-mall-after-movie-theater-retailers/article_90431afb-11d6-5b17-b277-de774cbf7d82.html (https://www.tulsaworld.com/business/new-tenants-headed-to-promenade-mall-after-movie-theater-retailers/article_90431afb-11d6-5b17-b277-de774cbf7d82.html)

Quote

"We are getting new tenants in, and we are being able to stabilize the tenants who are here," General Manager Veronica Butts said Wednesday.

"We had great Christmas traffic, and we have Christmas vendors that were here that are going to come back full time. They are from out of state, which is good to see," she said.

Something about the way the manager is doing damage control sounds a bit desperate (Maybe the "stabilize the tenants who are here" and ignoring the elephant in the room of major chains leaving at an alarming rate).

The bridal place being added last year is not in the slightest bit exciting for prospective shoppers. I'm not their target audience but losing Macys, Zales, American Eagle Outfitters and Charlotte Russ are huge losses in terms of popularity and stability. I don't know anything about Abbys but hard to believe it'll have the same draw.

I guess it's good for the area to have Promenade get through this, but seems like it might be pushing back the inevitable rather than evolving or innovating to create something unique. All in all I don't mind if the mall fails eventually though because it is owned by a bit NYC firm so good chance local companies will come out winners with some cheap real estate. However, it is in the public's interest to have some sort of thriving retail close to midtown to capture sales tax revenue that will inevitably be spent elsewhere.

Noticed they've got new maps on the website (http://www.tulsapromenade.com/map)
(https://uploads-ssl.webflow.com/570ba9e01f76dada7d3d30db/572777aa9134bc281e42511f_TulsaPromenadeupper_Page_11.png)
(https://uploads-ssl.webflow.com/570ba9e01f76dada7d3d30db/572777a8639cfa231e7a70d8_TulsaPromenadelower_Page_10.png)

Why the heck did they omit Dillard's from the map??

Quote from: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on January 17, 2019, 10:07:01 AM
Something about the way the manager is doing damage control sounds a bit desperate (Maybe the "stabilize the tenants who are here" and ignoring the elephant in the room of major chains leaving at an alarming rate).

The bridal place being added last year is not in the slightest bit exciting for prospective shoppers. I'm not their target audience but losing Macys, Zales, American Eagle Outfitters and Charlotte Russ are huge losses in terms of popularity and stability. I don't know anything about Abbys but hard to believe it'll have the same draw.

I guess it's good for the area to have Promenade get through this, but seems like it might be pushing back the inevitable rather than evolving or innovating to create something unique. All in all I don't mind if the mall fails eventually though because it is owned by a bit NYC firm so good chance local companies will come out winners with some cheap real estate. However, it is in the public's interest to have some sort of thriving retail close to midtown to capture sales tax revenue that will inevitably be spent elsewhere.

Yeah seems like they are kicking the can down the road.  They are still viable as long as Dillard's and the theater are operating but far from healthy.  I just think a big redevelopment would really give this area a big shot in the arm.  There are higher-income neighborhoods to the west and a few miles to the south that this would pull from, and potentially help stabilize or even revitalize some of the declining neighborhoods to the north and east.

Quote from: BKDotCom on January 17, 2019, 10:31:12 AM
Noticed they've got new maps on the website (http://www.tulsapromenade.com/map)
(https://uploads-ssl.webflow.com/570ba9e01f76dada7d3d30db/572777aa9134bc281e42511f_TulsaPromenadeupper_Page_11.png)
(https://uploads-ssl.webflow.com/570ba9e01f76dada7d3d30db/572777a8639cfa231e7a70d8_TulsaPromenadelower_Page_10.png)

Why the heck did they omit Dillard's from the map??

Maybe Dillards owns it's own building?

Quote from: swake on January 17, 2019, 11:09:24 AM
Maybe Dillards owns it's own building?

Yep, same reason the former Macy's building is not shown.

Quote from: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on January 17, 2019, 10:07:01 AM
Something about the way the manager is doing damage control sounds a bit desperate (Maybe the "stabilize the tenants who are here" and ignoring the elephant in the room of major chains leaving at an alarming rate).

The bridal place being added last year is not in the slightest bit exciting for prospective shoppers. I'm not their target audience but losing Macys, Zales, American Eagle Outfitters and Charlotte Russ are huge losses in terms of popularity and stability. I don't know anything about Abbys but hard to believe it'll have the same draw.

I guess it's good for the area to have Promenade get through this, but seems like it might be pushing back the inevitable rather than evolving or innovating to create something unique. All in all I don't mind if the mall fails eventually though because it is owned by a bit NYC firm so good chance local companies will come out winners with some cheap real estate. However, it is in the public's interest to have some sort of thriving retail close to midtown to capture sales tax revenue that will inevitably be spent elsewhere.

The owner paid millions for this property, it is not going to just shut it down without a buyer lined up so long as it can keep generating some cash flow.  Plus, there are probably lease clauses that tie rent rates to occupancy levels/foot traffic, etc., so getting new tenants in is important to prop up rent rates for existing tenants.

I suspect few if any of the new tenants will be national chains, but the owner is trying to get as much of the mall occupied as possible.  That is a reasonable strategy under the circumstances.  The death of a mall is usually a long slow process.

Quote from: DTowner on January 17, 2019, 11:57:34 AM
Yep, same reason the former Macy's building is not shown.

Dillard's is part of the mall (regardless of who owns the bldg).
Dillard's is listed underneath the map "Anchor  Dillard's"
Same with Macy's & Mervyn's  (which I assume aren't shown because they're empty / not accessible from the inside)

If something doesn't happen soon, it'll become the largest QuikTrip in the world...

Quote from: DTowner on January 17, 2019, 12:05:36 PM
The owner paid millions for this property, it is not going to just shut it down without a buyer lined up so long as it can keep generating some cash flow.  Plus, there are probably lease clauses that tie rent rates to occupancy levels/foot traffic, etc., so getting new tenants in is important to prop up rent rates for existing tenants.

I suspect few if any of the new tenants will be national chains, but the owner is trying to get as much of the mall occupied as possible.  That is a reasonable strategy under the circumstances.  The death of a mall is usually a long slow process.

Yes, obviously they're not going to just shut it down. No one suggested they would. But the way they're going about it shows that they want to suck every penny they can from it as a mall and kick the can down the road as long as possible, keeping a slowly declining "status quo" rather than try any sort of reinvention or innovative approach to bring in more customers.

There's a pretty good chance the market value of the mall and prospective tenants/rent has declined significantly since they bought it in 2013. If the retail collapse gets worse in future years and if Promenade remains looking somewhat bleak/dated and a recession comes, they might end up in a situation where they have to sell it for quite a bargain due to massive waves of closures. I won't feel any remorse for a big NYC firm not willing to invest in making it better.

Quote from: Tulsa Zephyr on January 17, 2019, 04:50:48 PM
If something doesn't happen soon, it'll become the largest QuikTrip in the world...

Like a Bucees? (https://bobcat.grahamdigital.com/image/upload/view?width=1280&height=720&method=crop&url=https://media.click2houston.com/photo/2017/04/14/Katy%20Buc-ee%27s20170414141728_9440949_ver1.0_1280_720.jpg) https://www.click2houston.com/community/new-50000-square-foot-buc-ees-location-to-open-monday-in-katy (https://www.click2houston.com/community/new-50000-square-foot-buc-ees-location-to-open-monday-in-katy)

Quote from: DTowner on January 17, 2019, 12:05:36 PM
The owner paid millions for this property, it is not going to just shut it down without a buyer lined up so long as it can keep generating some cash flow.

Could be playing the Sears long con.    Go bankrupt and sell the property off cheap to the CEO.

I suspect whatever tenants are replacing stores like Charlotte Russe and American Eagle are pop-ups and not chains, though I could be wrong.  None of the chains seem to be wanting to expand in malls at the moment...or anytime in the near future.

Quote from: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on January 18, 2019, 09:19:37 AM
Like a Bucees? (https://bobcat.grahamdigital.com/image/upload/view?width=1280&height=720&method=crop&url=https://media.click2houston.com/photo/2017/04/14/Katy%20Buc-ee%27s20170414141728_9440949_ver1.0_1280_720.jpg) https://www.click2houston.com/community/new-50000-square-foot-buc-ees-location-to-open-monday-in-katy (https://www.click2houston.com/community/new-50000-square-foot-buc-ees-location-to-open-monday-in-katy)

"Everything's bigger in Texas!"

Some people I know on a couple of other forums actually plan their trips so they can stop at one of their locations.

Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on January 18, 2019, 10:27:27 AM
"Everything's bigger in Texas!"

Some people I know on a couple of other forums actually plan their trips so they can stop at one of their locations.

Interesting places and perfect consumerism concept for middle America. Huge and full of quite a few good food options but not convenient in any way. The inside is about the size of a Reasors or maybe larger and a huge walk from some of the pumps to inside. It does have a good local selection of foods so easy to shop for that.

The place is like someone making a giant caricature of a gas station. Like someone drunkenly thought this up as a joke but then made it and it actually worked so they kept making them bigger to see how inconvenient they can make them and keep people coming back. It's like everything wrong and "right" about the US in one place. It's hard to celebrate such brash car-centric developments, but doesn't seem any worse than having 100 nasty crime-ridden shell gas stations in any given city. 

Quote from: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on January 22, 2019, 01:38:32 PM
but doesn't seem any worse than having 100 nasty crime-ridden shell gas stations in any given city. 

In that case:

"I'll take Buc-ee's for $100 Alex!"

Victoria's Secret has left the building

To add further insult, a water pipe in the old Macy's froze and busted.

The owner needs a serious rethink of what this mall is and should be going forward.  Repopulating the spaces of vacated chain stores with a few local stores with little to no following or name recognition is not going to slow the slide.

Quote from: DTowner on March 06, 2019, 12:05:49 PM
To add further insult, a water pipe in the old Macy's froze and busted.

The owner needs a serious rethink of what this mall is and should be going forward.  Repopulating the spaces of vacated chain stores with a few local stores with little to no following or name recognition is not going to slow the slide.

To add even further insult, Charlotte Russe is shutting down all stores (Tulsa locations at Promenade & Woodland Hills):

https://www.tulsaworld.com/business/charlotte-russe-to-close-all-stores-including-tulsa-locations/article_c4e141ad-947b-5194-8bf9-7b91b3dcd7e5.html (https://www.tulsaworld.com/business/charlotte-russe-to-close-all-stores-including-tulsa-locations/article_c4e141ad-947b-5194-8bf9-7b91b3dcd7e5.html)

Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on January 18, 2019, 10:27:27 AM
"Everything's bigger in Texas!"

Some people I know on a couple of other forums actually plan their trips so they can stop at one of their locations.

I thought that picture was a photo-shopped joke at first. I actually saw the one under construction in Melissa, TX this last weekend (on HW 75), and good gracious. It's as ridiculous looking in person as it is from an aerial photo.

Quote from: DTowner on March 06, 2019, 12:05:49 PM
To add further insult, a water pipe in the old Macy's froze and busted.

The owner needs a serious rethink of what this mall is and should be going forward.  Repopulating the spaces of vacated chain stores with a few local stores with little to no following or name recognition is not going to slow the slide.

I agree. It is interesting how we have been discussing this inevitable collapse of Promenade for years and yet they (seemingly) haven't been very proactive and there's still a massive new retail mall (reportedly) in the works in Jenks. They really need a bold new plan and leadership that will bite the bullet and realize the Promenade format of mediocre experience and dwindling customer base is not sustainable and that online will take even more of the pie in the future. Time to fully repurpose a la Eastland. The best time would've been when it was glaringly obvious to us on here, but the second best time is after years and years of massive reputation hits, closures and slow decline.

This decline is like how the guy in the Hemmingway novel went bankrupt: Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly.

The retailers who have somewhere to go are going to start leaving or exploring options. Bigger chains are going to ask for discounts to not leave citing lower sales. There's still ~60 places at Promenade so still in the "gradual" phase, but the quality of the tenants is starting to read like a discount mall lineup.

Quote5.99 or Less
228Abby's Jewelry
103American Eagle Outfitters
Animal Rides
231Artisan Life Photography
102Auntie Anne's® Hand-Rolled Soft Pretzels
101Bath & Body Works
115Blue Mist
129Buckle
124Charlotte Russe
210Chinese Gourmet Express
AnchorDillard's
Diva Style Warehouse
152El Chico
147Eye Exams by Dr. Rozell
125Finish Line
204Foot Locker
223FootAction USA
227Game Stop
111Helzberg Diamonds
121Hibbett Sports
126Hot Topic
209It's Greek to Me
205J's Hallmark
AnchorJCPenney
Anchor LLJCPenney Portrait Studio
Anchor LLJCPenney Styling Salon
K5Jazei's Cafe
Jazei's Home Decor
127Journeys
202BJourneys Kidz
150Kay Jewelers
242Kids Against Hunger
201Kids Foot Locker
117La Biotique
108La Fleur Nails and Day Spa
148LensCrafters
146Les Parfums
218Lids
Medicare Supplement Store
My Church Walk of Faith
111Nail Studio
K3Nut Hut
211Pholicious
240Quick Fit Alterations
250Romancing the Stone
Upper Level North EntranceSHOE DEPT. ENCORE
Inside JCPSephora
AnchorSky Fitness and Wellbeing
113So Relax
216Steak n' Bake
214Subway
138T-Mobile
Taco Shop
105Things Remembered
Upper Level, West EndThunderkick Fitness
K-4Treasures
143Tulsa Learning Academy
Tulsa Promenade
106Underground Station
K9VIP Perfume Bags and More
104Victoria's Secret
5538Wireless 2 Go
Lower LevelWireless Gizmos
119Zales
220rue21

Quote from: erfalf on March 07, 2019, 12:17:20 PM
I thought that picture was a photo-shopped joke at first. I actually saw the one under construction in Melissa, TX this last weekend (on HW 75), and good gracious. It's as ridiculous looking in person as it is from an aerial photo.

Ridiculous, but awesome!   I am one of those that will plan my stops to hit a Buckee's.  

Quote from: erfalf on March 07, 2019, 12:17:20 PM
I thought that picture was a photo-shopped joke at first. I actually saw the one under construction in Melissa, TX this last weekend (on HW 75), and good gracious. It's as ridiculous looking in person as it is from an aerial photo.

Yep! It's their motto on their licenses:

"Texas: Where things are so big, you'll swear to high heaven it's photoshopped!"

Quote from: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on March 07, 2019, 12:19:45 PM
I agree. It is interesting how we have been discussing this inevitable collapse of Promenade for years and yet they (seemingly) haven't been very proactive and there's still a massive new retail mall (reportedly) in the works in Jenks. They really need a bold new plan and leadership that will bite the bullet and realize the Promenade format of mediocre experience and dwindling customer base is not sustainable and that online will take even more of the pie in the future. Time to fully repurpose a la Eastland. The best time would've been when it was glaringly obvious to us on here, but the second best time is after years and years of massive reputation hits, closures and slow decline.

This decline is like how the guy in the Hemmingway novel went bankrupt: Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly.

The retailers who have somewhere to go are going to start leaving or exploring options. Bigger chains are going to ask for discounts to not leave citing lower sales. There's still ~60 places at Promenade so still in the "gradual" phase, but the quality of the tenants is starting to read like a discount mall lineup.

I could be really flippant and say they should have re-purposed to a mixed use development in 1986 instead of re-tooling an outdoor mall or what was a precursor to a "power center" and turning it into something like Woodland Hills.  By comparison, Southroads just to the north went from an indoor mall to somewhat of a prototype of the power center.  That was only 10 years or so after Woodland Hills Mall opened and the indoor mall was still a viable business model.  Turns out, the remake gamble on Southroads was the right direction over the long term.

I'm somewhat surprised Simon is moving forward in Jenks.  With the unstable terrestrial retail environment it seems like a much bigger gamble than it did five years ago.

Quote from: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on March 07, 2019, 12:19:45 PM
I agree. It is interesting how we have been discussing this inevitable collapse of Promenade for years and yet they (seemingly) haven't been very proactive and there's still a massive new retail mall (reportedly) in the works in Jenks. They really need a bold new plan and leadership that will bite the bullet and realize the Promenade format of mediocre experience and dwindling customer base is not sustainable and that online will take even more of the pie in the future. Time to fully repurpose a la Eastland. The best time would've been when it was glaringly obvious to us on here, but the second best time is after years and years of massive reputation hits, closures and slow decline.

The difference between Promenade and Eastland is that Promenade sits on much higher valued land on the edge of midtown.  Yale is a major north-south corridor and 41st is a major east-west corridor.  You have some of the highest incomes in Tulsa just to the west and northwest, and another large pocket of higher incomes following Yale south of 61st.  Add in the decently-sized employer/student base at OU across the street and it's a prety attractive location. 

Quote from: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on March 07, 2019, 12:19:45 PM
I agree. It is interesting how we have been discussing this inevitable collapse of Promenade for years and yet they (seemingly) haven't been very proactive and there's still a massive new retail mall (reportedly) in the works in Jenks. They really need a bold new plan and leadership that will bite the bullet and realize the Promenade format of mediocre experience and dwindling customer base is not sustainable and that online will take even more of the pie in the future. Time to fully repurpose a la Eastland. The best time would've been when it was glaringly obvious to us on here, but the second best time is after years and years of massive reputation hits, closures and slow decline.

This decline is like how the guy in the Hemmingway novel went bankrupt: Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly.

The retailers who have somewhere to go are going to start leaving or exploring options. Bigger chains are going to ask for discounts to not leave citing lower sales. There's still ~60 places at Promenade so still in the "gradual" phase, but the quality of the tenants is starting to read like a discount mall lineup.

Perhaps the better question is why would the owner want to commit to the huge capital expenditures necessary to convert this dying mall to some other use?  I read recently where some malls had successfully converted shuttered Sear's stores into a number of smaller stores, but that it was a very expensive undertaking.  Any significant conversion of Promenade will be hugely expensive with no guaranty that will it ever pay off.  Why not just ride it out with whatever cash flow it can generate (or offsetting losses for tax purposes) until there is nothing left and then sell the property at a fire sale price?  When you consider that the Dillard's building, like the Macy's building, is not owned by the mall, it is unlikely the owner could sell the mall now for much  more than it could if it was completely empty.

Quote from: DTowner on March 08, 2019, 01:26:29 PM
Perhaps the better question is why would the owner want to commit to the huge capital expenditures necessary to convert this dying mall to some other use?  I read recently where some malls had successfully converted shuttered Sear's stores into a number of smaller stores, but that it was a very expensive undertaking.  Any significant conversion of Promenade will be hugely expensive with no guaranty that will it ever pay off.  Why not just ride it out with whatever cash flow it can generate (or offsetting losses for tax purposes) until there is nothing left and then sell the property at a fire sale price?  When you consider that the Dillard's building, like the Macy's building, is not owned by the mall, it is unlikely the owner could sell the mall now for much  more than it could if it was completely empty.

That sounds like exactly what they will do and are doing... riding the retail wave until the end. That'll work for a while but will be bad for the area and other shopping areas will continue to sponge away their customers. I just hope they do something a bit more proactive than that (even competing to bring in some outlet chains could be better than the status quo).

They don't have to take on the financial burden of renovating. Either sell pieces off or look to sell the entirety of it to someone who does have a vision for it. It seems they aren't committed to making it a nice mall that will survive the impending retail shift.

Quote from: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on March 08, 2019, 01:59:48 PM
That sounds like exactly what they will do and are doing... riding the retail wave until the end. That'll work for a while but will be bad for the area and other shopping areas will continue to sponge away their customers. I just hope they do something a bit more proactive than that (even competing to bring in some outlet chains could be better than the status quo).

They don't have to take on the financial burden of renovating. Either sell pieces off or look to sell the entirety of it to someone who does have a vision for it. It seems they aren't committed to making it a nice mall that will survive the impending retail shift.

I agree it is bad for that area and bad for Tulsa.  Of course, out-of-state real estate investment companies don't much care what we or other Tulsans want or think.

Quote from: DTowner on March 08, 2019, 02:29:23 PM
I agree it is bad for that area and bad for Tulsa.  Of course, out-of-state real estate investment companies don't much care what we or other Tulsans want or think.

True. And even with the potentially massive loss in real estate value, they'll probably still end up far ahead in the deal.

Quote from: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on March 08, 2019, 01:59:48 PM
That sounds like exactly what they will do and are doing... riding the retail wave until the end. That'll work for a while but will be bad for the area and other shopping areas will continue to sponge away their customers. I just hope they do something a bit more proactive than that (even competing to bring in some outlet chains could be better than the status quo).

They don't have to take on the financial burden of renovating. Either sell pieces off or look to sell the entirety of it to someone who does have a vision for it. It seems they aren't committed to making it a nice mall that will survive the impending retail shift.

I call oxymoron on that one

Quote from: Conan71 on March 09, 2019, 12:39:45 AM
I call oxymoron on that one

Is mother road market a nice food court?

Quote from: BKDotCom on March 10, 2019, 09:23:40 AM
Is mother road market a nice food court?

Depends do they have Sbarro and It's Greek To me?

Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on January 18, 2019, 10:27:27 AM
"Everything's bigger in Texas!"

Some people I know on a couple of other forums actually plan their trips so they can stop at one of their locations.

I read this article and it reminded me of this thread:

https://www.texasmonthly.com/articles/buc-ees-the-path-to-world-domination/ (https://www.texasmonthly.com/articles/buc-ees-the-path-to-world-domination/)

They are expanding their inconvenient store empire outside of Texas. On one hand they're providing a clean place with great food options for travelers, on the other hand it is banking on the culture of excessive consumption and sprawl (although typically built on highways in the middle of nowhere). Also, they pay and treat the employees very well.

68,000 square feet is getting close to a typical Walmart store size (101,000 ft2) and much larger than the vast majority of retail stores. Crazy that they've made this work as a successful chain. I know when I've been, it has added nearly an hour to the trip. That's a long stop, especially when splitting up 1-3 hour drives between Austin, Houston and SA!

Quote from: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on March 22, 2019, 10:45:02 AM
I read this article and it reminded me of this thread:

https://www.texasmonthly.com/articles/buc-ees-the-path-to-world-domination/ (https://www.texasmonthly.com/articles/buc-ees-the-path-to-world-domination/)

They are expanding their inconvenient store empire outside of Texas. On one hand they're providing a clean place with great food options for travelers, on the other hand it is banking on the culture of excessive consumption and sprawl (although typically built on highways in the middle of nowhere). Also, they pay and treat the employees very well.

68,000 square feet is getting close to a typical Walmart store size (101,000 ft2) and much larger than the vast majority of retail stores. Crazy that they've made this work as a successful chain. I know when I've been, it has added nearly an hour to the trip. That's a long stop, especially when splitting up 1-3 hour drives between Austin, Houston and SA!

Yeah, I'm not their target market. I just spent a couple of weeks driving through AZ, NV, and CA and avoided the large truck stops similar to this. I usually stop at Love's, Pilot/Flying J, and occasionally Travel America. Mainly because I can get in, get gas, go to the restroom and get something to drink and get back on the road. The biggest thing that chaps my hide, and this applies to any of them, is when they are really busy, the people that pull up to the pump and then go inside to take care of business and then come back out and put gas in their vehicle. They tie up a pump for at least ten minutes without buying fuel, and then spend another five minutes actually putting fuel in.

Okay, rant off, back to the normal thread discussion.

https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/education/tps-seeks-to-move-tulsa-learning-academy-from-promenade-mall/article_3d145e24-a67c-5bd5-a1a2-6474bdaa965d.html#tncms-source=infinity-scroll-summary-siderail-latest (https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/education/tps-seeks-to-move-tulsa-learning-academy-from-promenade-mall/article_3d145e24-a67c-5bd5-a1a2-6474bdaa965d.html#tncms-source=infinity-scroll-summary-siderail-latest)

There goes another tenant.

Quote from: ELG4America on April 11, 2019, 01:43:26 PM
https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/education/tps-seeks-to-move-tulsa-learning-academy-from-promenade-mall/article_3d145e24-a67c-5bd5-a1a2-6474bdaa965d.html#tncms-source=infinity-scroll-summary-siderail-latest (https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/education/tps-seeks-to-move-tulsa-learning-academy-from-promenade-mall/article_3d145e24-a67c-5bd5-a1a2-6474bdaa965d.html#tncms-source=infinity-scroll-summary-siderail-latest)

There goes another tenant.

That is doubly painful because that is the type of tenant it needs to transform itself from retail to commercial office and services tenants.

Quote from: DTowner on April 11, 2019, 02:33:24 PM
That is doubly painful because that is the type of tenant it needs to transform itself from retail to commercial office and services tenants.

They need to go all in.
Right now it's just a weird dying mall with some other random stuff in there

Quote from: BKDotCom on April 11, 2019, 09:36:40 PM
They need to go all in.
Right now it's just a weird dying mall with some other random stuff in there

True, although it is hard to blame this one on the mall.  TPS is moving this academy to a school that is being shut down.  It makes financial sense for TPS -  it can expand the program and house it in a building it already owns.  Nonetheless, this sucks for the mall.

From Tulsa World Article....  https://www.tulsaworld.com/business/promenade-mall-s-mortgage-holder-seeking-foreclosure-on-the-property/article_7a9d7f3b-cf7c-5493-b235-00be8a87a49a.html?fbclid=IwAR2gRdM-LhjfrSl9XpDhD6frGd4dcZCdDkmy5CmmS3kjK4vnoGqkBCBabPA


"The holder of Promenade Mall's mortgage is seeking to foreclose on the loan, according to documents filed with Tulsa County District Court last month.

Ready Capital Corp., the original lender and current holder of the loan, alleges in court filings that the mall's owner — a Delaware limited liability company — has defaulted on the loan by failing to make payments from March 2019 forward.

Ready Capital Corp. also alleges that its collateral interest in the property is diminishing as a result of the mall owner's failure to maintain the property and a suspected failure to direct all rents to the designated "lock box." Court filings claim the property's value has seen a three-year plunge from $25.9 million in a 2016 appraisal to $4.5 million per a recent estimation by NAI Farbman...."


I almost wonder if there was something to gain by the Mortgage Holder by loaning the money to these people that are known bad actors and "Mall Killers" ?   Like people who can get a tax write off from devalued property? 

All anyone has to do is look the company up online to find horror story after horror story....
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohan_Retail_Investment_Group?fbclid=IwAR2GVoqL7jf1C1ChZCPIBaUdobqVM9aP2qjOp_9pYH_w1K_XfsWe_FK0owU


Kohan lost the Jamestown Mall in late 2011 due to foreclosure, but retained some ownership in late 2012.[1][10] The mall had previously declared bankruptcy in August 2011.[1] After purchasing Woodville Mall in 2009, it was closed in December 2011 by court order, and demolished by Northwood, Ohio in March 2014 due to its poor material condition.[32][33] Lincoln Mall suffered from serious material condition issues during Kohan's ownership and in August 2013 went into receivership.[15][34] Matteson, Illinois took over ownership in June 2014 and it closed in January 2015 after running out of money.[35][34][36] At the malls closure, over $10 million in fines and taxes was owed to Matteson by Kohan.[34] Lincoln Mall was demolished starting in May 2017.[37] During a 2013 police drug search, serious issues were discovered in Northland Mall's former Kmart that included mold, roof damage, and other major issues. Ownership also owed $141,081.61 in taxes to Nobles County, Minnesota.[38][39] The mall had serious material condition issues in April 2014 that Worthington, Minnesota took action on.[40][41] Worthington won a court decision about the former Kmart in June 2014, and demolition began in February 2015.[42] The mall was sold to 7&41 LLC in May 2015.[43]

Due to lack of payment on a $300,000 bill, Rotterdam Square Mall lost power on February 12, 2015.[2][44] The mall was later sold to ViaPort USA for $9.25 million.[45] Since its purchase, Berkshire Mall has suffered from serious tax issues with many payments being missed. Kohan has been taken to court several times over these issues and has narrowly avoided Berkshire's seizure.[24][46] Berkshire has also suffered from a series of power outages.[8] Kohan owed $627,789 in property taxes on the Washington Square Mall in 2017, and the mall was put up for tax sale.[21] The malls outstanding taxes were paid off in October 2018 for $1.1 million.[8] VF Factory Outlet Mall closed in October 2017.[33] Indian River Mall almost lost power in December 2017 due to unpaid electric bills and bounced checks totaling $428,175. The bill was paid the day electric was to be shutoff.[47]

Mayberry Mall was almost closed on February 1, 2018 by local government officials due to roof and mold issues. It was sold to WRS Inc. Real Estate Investments in 2019.[48][49] In August 2018, Kohan sued Clay, New York for a reduction in the Great Northern Mall's taxes, while owing $1.53 million to county government.[50] Due to the roofs poor condition, Effingham City declared Village Square Mall unsafe in August 2018.[51] Due to Kohan not paying Lycoming Mall's PPL electric bill, it lost power in late August 2018.[52] In September 2018, Southbridge Mall was sued by Cerro Gordo County for $177,324 in back taxes.[26][53] Those taxes were paid off in December 2018, with three of the previous four checks sent to the county bouncing.[54] Kohan owed around $550,000 on The Orchards Mall in various taxes before its sale in late 2018.[19]

Lycoming County Water and Sewer Authority placed Lycoming Mall on the February 2019 sheriff's sale list due to unpaid bills.[55] Kohan made a partial payment to stop the auction.[8][22] Chapel Hill Mall almost had power disconnected by Ohio Edison due to unpaid bills in April 2019.[7]




So what gives?  If I were the court I would say "Heck no, you knew what you were getting into and you knew what was likely to happen to the mall, how it could damage the area it is in, the jobs of the people who worked there, etc. and you didn't care!" thats immoral. If I could I would seize the mall, sell it to a reputable company, and turn around and fine the company that made the loan on top of what they are losing in order to teach them a lesson.

The only surprise in any of this is that the property was appraised for $25.9 million in 2016.  That is absurd, particularly when you consider that the Dillard's and Macy's buildings and the southside parking garage have separate ownership.

Unfortunately, this day has been obvious in coming for years.  Prying this property out of the hands of the current owner is the only way to have any hope that this dying mall can be repurposed into a modern use.  However, even if the receiver gets appointed and the foreclosure occurs quickly, I wouldn't get any hopes up that anything meaningful will happen in the foreseeable future.  It sounds like the capital for just the deferred maintenance will eat up all the revenues for years and a new buyer with a plan and a lot of money will have to be found.

Maybe now that the folks that transformed the old Eastland Mall have sold it, they are interested in tackling another Tulsa project....

Quote from: TheArtist on July 22, 2019, 10:12:26 PM
So what gives?  If I were the court I would say "Heck no, you knew what you were getting into and you knew what was likely to happen to the mall, how it could damage the area it is in, the jobs of the people who worked there, etc. and you didn't care!" thats immoral. If I could I would seize the mall, sell it to a reputable company, and turn around and fine the company that made the loan on top of what they are losing in order to teach them a lesson.

I'm not sure I follow your point or your solution.  It appears that the owner of Promenade is a real estate bottom feeder - buying distressed or struggling properties and attempting to squeeze whatever profit is left out of them.  Ready Capital loaned them money to do so and knowingly took a risk with such an operator.  Ready will likely take a hit and not recover all it's owed - which is its just deserts for loaning money to such a company in the first place.  Neither should get a Rotarian award for contributions to the Tulsa community, but both were doing what they do - trying to make a buck in a turbid niche real estate market.

The sooner the foreclosure process plays out, the sooner this property can be put on the market and start looking for a new owner.  Again, it's unlikely anything will happen fast, but up to now this property has been stuck in limbo with an owner that isn't going to invest in it to turn it around.  This is actually good news for Tulsa, even if it comes disguised as bad.

I'm just hoping a local investment group can gain control that has the long-term vision of repurposing the mall into a mixed use development.  Unlike Eastland Mall this site is on two main arterial streets, within a half mile of I-44 and across the street from OU-Tulsa.  Some of the highest income neighborhoods in the city are to the northwest. 

It's a drain on that area now but could be a catalyst to revitalizing the whole area around 41st & Yale.  Look no further than OKC to what they have planned for the 50 Penn site, mixed-use retail with office and housing.  That's what is needed here.

Quote from: SXSW on July 23, 2019, 07:45:46 PM
I'm just hoping a local investment group can gain control that has the long-term vision of repurposing the mall into a mixed use development.  Unlike Eastland Mall this site is on two main arterial streets, within a half mile of I-44 and across the street from OU-Tulsa.  Some of the highest income neighborhoods in the city are to the northwest. 

It's a drain on that area now but could be a catalyst to revitalizing the whole area around 41st & Yale.  Look no further than OKC to what they have planned for the 50 Penn site, mixed-use retail with office and housing.  That's what is needed here.

A major medical research facility?

It's past time to stick a fork in the Mall
https://www.businessinsider.com/jcpenney-closing-stores-list-addresses-2020-1

El Chico's closed earlier this month / now they're loosing JC-Penney

Quote from: BKDotCom on January 17, 2020, 03:30:35 PM
It's past time to stick a fork in the Mall
https://www.businessinsider.com/jcpenney-closing-stores-list-addresses-2020-1

El Chico's closed earlier this month / now they're loosing JC-Penney

I wonder if Dillards would like to move back to Utica.

Every time news breaks of another shop in Promenade closing I am reminded that it is still actually open in some capacity. I really should stop in sometime for old time's sake just to see it one last time.

I feel like everyone has discussed it's demise for years now. Just turn it into offices already.

The Hallmark store also closed at the first of the year.

The Dillard's building isn't owned by the mall (same with the former Macy's building), which would make relocating the store difficult and expensive.  The ever declining foot traffic through the rest of the mall has to be killing Dillard's.

Quote from: DTowner on January 20, 2020, 11:44:38 AM
The ever declining foot traffic through the rest of the mall has to be killing Dillard's.

The Dillards and mall crowds have been mutually exclusive for a while

Quote from: BKDotCom on January 20, 2020, 02:15:11 PM
The Dillards and mall crowds have been mutually exclusive for a while

Agree, it's almost like a stand-alone store.  I think if the rest of the mall was redeveloped there would still be a place for Dillard's and their adjacent garage along 43rd St. 

QuoteTulsa Promenade mall losing another store this month

The Hallmark store, a longtime tenant, is scheduled to shut its doors for good at the close of business Feb. 29, a store representative said Thursday. The Hallmark news follows the recent closure of Foot Locker and the impending exit of JCPenney, which announced in January that it would close its Promenade location in the spring.

https://www.tulsaworld.com/business/tulsa-promenade-mall-losing-another-store-this-month/article_b8f03b7b-8821-5286-a3e8-64184a949669.html (https://www.tulsaworld.com/business/tulsa-promenade-mall-losing-another-store-this-month/article_b8f03b7b-8821-5286-a3e8-64184a949669.html)

Reminds me of the final years of the Westminster Mall in Colorado.  It was purchased by the city and demolished to be redeveloped by individual developers as a mixed-use downtown area.  From Wikipedia:

Quote
Between 1997 and 2009, the mall would lose three of its six department stores as well as major tenant Fashion Bar, which closed in 1997.  Wards closed in 2001 with the demise of the chain, followed by Mervyn's closing in 2005. Mervyn's departed from the Colorado market in 2006.  Macy's closed in early 2009.  With the loss of these anchor stores, the mall has also become increasingly vacant, and is only half occupied as of 2009.  In June 2009, the mall's owners purchased the vacant Mervyn's as part of a redevelopment plan.

In May 2011, the City of Westminster purchased the mall for redevelopment. Plans called for the 34-year-old mall to be demolished by the end of the year with hopes that the anchor stores would remain open.  On May 13, 2011, Dillard's reported that it would close its location at the mall during its second quarter of business in 2011. Demolition of the mall began on June 23, 2011, starting off with the demolition of Macy's.

On January 20, 2012, it was announced that Sears would also be closing in June 2012 as part of a plan to close 81 stores nationwide which left JCPenney as the only remaining anchor. On January 24, 2012, it was further confirmed that the City of Westminster would purchase the 7.9 acre parcel from Sears Holding Corp. for $4.2 million.

By the spring of 2012, three anchors, Macy's, Mervyn's, and Montgomery Ward, two restaurants, Trail Dust Steakhouse and Steak & Ale, the cinema and remaining mall corridor had been demolished. The demolition of Dillard's began that spring. The demolition of Sears started in August 2012.

Plans for the former Westminster Mall location were revealed August 27, 2013. Westminster's plans for a new downtown on the site of the former Westminster Mall took another step forward during an Aug. 26 presentation that outlined a development that includes multi-story office and residential buildings, unique public spaces and vibrant shopping areas.

I am not in Tulsa right now but I assume the Promenade is shut down like most every thing else.  Who else thinks this is going to be the last nail in their coffin? I doubt it will reopen in its current form. 

Probably, but the Promenade is probably the last place I am worried about at this time. So many businesses are going to be shuttered. This is still the beginning of the beginning as far as economic impacts are concerned.

Wow, Promenade Mall is in even worse shape than I realized.  I just did a deep dive on their website and their list of stores and mall map is so out of date and incomplete it's pathetic.  They aren't even seriously trying any more.

They appear to be down to about 14 stores plus a smattering of local shops.

Their website still lists a whole bunch of stores whose respective websites say they do not have locations at the Promenade, including JCPenney (which is still on their store list AND on the mall map). Oddly, while Dillard's (which is actually open) makes the store list, the mall does not bother to include it on their map.

Quote from: Oil Capital on December 22, 2020, 01:32:56 PM
Wow, Promenade Mall is in even worse shape than I realized.  I just did a deep dive on their website and their list of stores and mall map is so out of date and incomplete it's pathetic.  They aren't even seriously trying any more.

They appear to be down to about 14 stores plus a smattering of local shops.

Their website still lists a whole bunch of stores whose respective websites say they do not have locations at the Promenade, including JCPenney (which is still on their store list AND on the mall map). Oddly, while Dillard's (which is actually open) makes the store list, the mall does not bother to include it on their map.

Take a walk through the mall - it is definitely a zombie mall.  And, I think Dillard's owns its building.

What's interesting about Promenade is that unlike Eastland Mall it's in a good location.  Centrally located within Tulsa close to I-44 and at the intersection of two main thoroughfares.  Some of the highest income neighborhoods in the city to the west and northwest.  With some vision it could be converted to mixed-use apartments and offices.  I would think OU would have some interest in being involved as well.

The Promenade death march appears to be continuing.  Now down to about 10 stores, including Dillard's.

Oddly, they've updated the store list on their website but the mall map still shows JCPenney (which is not open), but still does not show Dillard's (which is still open).

Another mall, another redevelopment plan this one in Phoenix.  Metrocenter Mall used to be one of the premier malls in north Phoenix and has been closed for the past few years.  Hines and the City of Phoenix have partnered to bulldoze the mall and rebuild it as a walkable mixed-use development with some retail but mostly housing.  https://azbigmedia.com/real-estate/metrocenter-mall-is-getting-a-750-million-redevelopment/ (https://azbigmedia.com/real-estate/metrocenter-mall-is-getting-a-750-million-redevelopment/)

This is what needs to happen with Promenade.  A big mixed-use development at 41st & Yale would improve that whole section of the city.  Have the City of Tulsa partner with a developer and get OU-Tulsa involved as a joint stakeholder.

Quote from: SXSW on December 10, 2021, 09:11:08 AM
Another mall, another redevelopment plan this one in Phoenix.  Metrocenter Mall used to be one of the premier malls in north Phoenix and has been closed for the past few years.  Hines and the City of Phoenix have partnered to bulldoze the mall and rebuild it as a walkable mixed-use development with some retail but mostly housing.  https://azbigmedia.com/real-estate/metrocenter-mall-is-getting-a-750-million-redevelopment/ (https://azbigmedia.com/real-estate/metrocenter-mall-is-getting-a-750-million-redevelopment/)

This is what needs to happen with Promenade.  A big mixed-use development at 41st & Yale would improve that whole section of the city.  Have the City of Tulsa partner with a developer and get OU-Tulsa involved as a joint stakeholder.

The redevelopment of Metrocenter is the second project like this going on in the valley. The other is the Paradise Valley Mall Redevelopment Project. (yes it's noted in the link provided about Metrocenter)

https://www.reddevelopment.com/paradise-valley-mall-redevelopment/ (https://www.reddevelopment.com/paradise-valley-mall-redevelopment/)

Metrocenter has issues that were not brought up in the article. The area south and southwest of Metro is a really rough area with a number of shootings, drug activity, assault, and property crimes.

Metrocenter is the oval shaped area near the top of the map bordered by 27th Ave on the east 35th Ave to the west, Peoria on the north and Dunlap on the south.

https://crimegrade.org/violent-crime-85051/ (https://crimegrade.org/violent-crime-85051/)

Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on December 10, 2021, 10:04:30 AM
The redevelopment of Metrocenter is the second project like this going on in the valley. The other is the Paradise Valley Mall Redevelopment Project. (yes it's noted in the link provided about Metrocenter)

https://www.reddevelopment.com/paradise-valley-mall-redevelopment/ (https://www.reddevelopment.com/paradise-valley-mall-redevelopment/)

Metrocenter has issues that were not brought up in the article. The area south and southwest of Metro is a really rough area with a number of shootings, drug activity, assault, and property crimes.

Metrocenter is the oval shaped area near the top of the map bordered by 27th Ave on the east 35th Ave to the west, Peoria on the north and Dunlap on the south.

https://crimegrade.org/violent-crime-85051/ (https://crimegrade.org/violent-crime-85051/)

Not super familiar with Phoenix, how does its location compare to Promenade?  Looks to be about a similar distance from downtown Phoenix as Promenade is from downtown Tulsa.  Promenade has some of the wealthiest zip codes in the city to its west and northwest, solid upper middle class neighborhoods to its north, southwest and east with lower income apartments to the south (south of I-44).  Promenade is much different than Eastland, for example, in that it is in a good centrally located neighborhood so it would make economic sense to redevelop it.

Quote from: SXSW on December 10, 2021, 11:22:11 AM
Not super familiar with Phoenix, how does its location compare to Promenade?  Looks to be about a similar distance from downtown Phoenix as Promenade is from downtown Tulsa.  Promenade has some of the wealthiest zip codes in the city to its west and northwest, solid upper middle class neighborhoods to its north, southwest and east with lower income apartments to the south (south of I-44).  Promenade is much different than Eastland, for example, in that it is in a good centrally located neighborhood so it would make economic sense to redevelop it.

The area south and west of Metro is kind of like the way the Kendall/Whittier, Utica-244, W 23rd/SW Blvd Arkansas River from the 80's to mid 90's era. It's been a mixed area of races since the 70's but has always struggled with gang issues since the late 70's. Now if you go north and west you get into an area similar to the area around Promenade 41st and Yale area. The distance to downtown is about the same as you noted.

The whole area as a development time line are similar in age dating back to the early 70's. The area is also a lot like west Tulsa in it's history since it was primarily an industrial area since just to the west of there is US 60/Grand Avenue and a major rail line. There was a Goodyear plant, and a lot of other manufacturing in the area and it's also the location of the fuel and oil depot distribution center for the gas and oil we get from LA and El Paso.

The reason the area north is more like 41st and Yale is there were locations for Honeywell, Allied Signal, and Motorola. The Promenade area to me benefitted from back when Amaco, Sinclair, Telex, Seismograph and to an extent Nelson Electric had facilities in that area.

The Metrocenter area is just a portion of issues in that area. That area is actually part of three cities, Phoenix/Glendale/Maryvale and it's not all bad, but as I noted earlier it's been a long time issue.

The growth of the valley has been an interesting study for me, because it's not so much that Phoenix grew outwards but that the surrounding cities grew towards Phoenix as well as growing around each other.

I do hope that the Metrocenter development helps improve the area and spur some healthy redevelopment in the surrounding area but it wont be easy.

There is tenant improvement work taking place in the JC Penny box. New roof being installed and floors inside the premises are being diamond ground. It would appear that the Penny's box will have a new tenant soon. I am curious to see what type of user is going in.

I recently stopped by Promenade on a Thursday around 6 pm to do some Christmas shopping at Dillard's.  Coming in from the south, the first thing I noticed was the parking garage near the old Macy's was pitch black with absolutely no lights on.  The ground level of the parking garage near Dillard's had a few lights on, but it was very dim and actually pretty off putting.  There were only a couple cars in the lot and I had second thoughts about even stopping.  When I left, I went by the north side and while there were a few more lights on and the ambient light from 41st, it was still pretty dark.  If this is indicative of the "service" and support being provided by the mall, I do not see how Dillard's sticks it out for much longer.  It was the height of Christmas shopping season and Dillard's had only a small handful of shoppers and was closing at 8 pm.

Quote from: DTowner on December 14, 2021, 04:12:19 PM
I recently stopped by Promenade on a Thursday around 6 pm to do some Christmas shopping at Dillard's.  Coming in from the south, the first thing I noticed was the parking garage near the old Macy's was pitch black with absolutely no lights on.  The ground level of the parking garage near Dillard's had a few lights on, but it was very dim and actually pretty off putting.  There were only a couple cars in the lot and I had second thoughts about even stopping.  When I left, I went by the north side and while there were a few more lights on and the ambient light from 41st, it was still pretty dark.  If this is indicative of the "service" and support being provided by the mall, I do not see how Dillard's sticks it out for much longer.  It was the height of Christmas shopping season and Dillard's had only a small handful of shoppers and was closing at 8 pm.

I used to manage a store at Eastland Mall back when that was a thing. Dealing with mall management made me realize that all the problems with malls was due to them. For the most part they were content to just open the doors and hope people showed up and then whined when there were no crowds. Our store, in addition to rent, had to pay a monthly advertising fee to the mall so they could run commercials and so on but they never did. I asked why not and they said they didn't want to offend Woodland Hills Mall. I shiat you not. Malls aren't dying because people don't want to shop in person or because malls are "uncool" or whatever, they're dying because they're all run by idiots - clearly Promenade has had that same problem for a long time.

Quote from: DTowner on December 14, 2021, 04:12:19 PM
I recently stopped by Promenade on a Thursday around 6 pm to do some Christmas shopping at Dillard's.  Coming in from the south, the first thing I noticed was the parking garage near the old Macy's was pitch black with absolutely no lights on.  The ground level of the parking garage near Dillard's had a few lights on, but it was very dim and actually pretty off putting.  There were only a couple cars in the lot and I had second thoughts about even stopping.  When I left, I went by the north side and while there were a few more lights on and the ambient light from 41st, it was still pretty dark.  If this is indicative of the "service" and support being provided by the mall, I do not see how Dillard's sticks it out for much longer.  It was the height of Christmas shopping season and Dillard's had only a small handful of shoppers and was closing at 8 pm.

Meanwhile go to Utica Square and it's packed afternoon and evenings even on weekdays.  I wonder if Dillard's would ever move to Utica Square or would they not want to compete with Saks? 

Quote from: SXSW on December 15, 2021, 10:13:05 AM
Meanwhile go to Utica Square and it's packed afternoon and evenings even on weekdays.  I wonder if Dillard's would ever move to Utica Square or would they not want to compete with Saks? 

Dillards closed at Utica decades ago.

Quote from: SXSW on December 15, 2021, 10:13:05 AM
Meanwhile go to Utica Square and it's packed afternoon and evenings even on weekdays.  I wonder if Dillard's would ever move to Utica Square or would they not want to compete with Saks? 

I would love for Dillard's to build a store on the old Miss Jackson's site.  However, realistically, Dillard's once had five stores in Tulsa, is now down to 2 and 1 of those does not look like it will be around much longer.  Most large department stores are struggling and generally shrinking their footprint and putting more eggs in the on-line market.  So, while I would love a return of Dillard's to Utica Square, I doubt that ever happens.

Quote from: tulsabug on December 15, 2021, 07:05:11 AM
I used to manage a store at Eastland Mall back when that was a thing. Dealing with mall management made me realize that all the problems with malls was due to them. For the most part they were content to just open the doors and hope people showed up and then whined when there were no crowds. Our store, in addition to rent, had to pay a monthly advertising fee to the mall so they could run commercials and so on but they never did. I asked why not and they said they didn't want to offend Woodland Hills Mall. I shiat you not. Malls aren't dying because people don't want to shop in person or because malls are "uncool" or whatever, they're dying because they're all run by idiots - clearly Promenade has had that same problem for a long time.

Mall leases are notoriously one-sided.  For example, at Promenade the nail salons had to open at 5 am on Black Friday when the other stores opened because the lease required them to be open when the mall was open even though no one was going to get their nails done while hitting the store buster sales.

Dying malls have many causes, with bad management being only one.  However, the succession of owners of Promenade the past couple of decades have done little to fight the headwinds this mall faced and some seem to have actively contributed to its demise.  Once a mall starts the downward spiral, it is rare to recover.  Refusing to pay for electricity to turn on the lights in the parking lots seems like a pretty good indication the current owner is not making any effort.

Quote from: DTowner on December 14, 2021, 04:12:19 PM
I recently stopped by Promenade on a Thursday around 6 pm to do some Christmas shopping at Dillard's.  Coming in from the south, the first thing I noticed was the parking garage near the old Macy's was pitch black with absolutely no lights on.  The ground level of the parking garage near Dillard's had a few lights on, but it was very dim and actually pretty off putting.  There were only a couple cars in the lot and I had second thoughts about even stopping.  When I left, I went by the north side and while there were a few more lights on and the ambient light from 41st, it was still pretty dark.  If this is indicative of the "service" and support being provided by the mall, I do not see how Dillard's sticks it out for much longer.  It was the height of Christmas shopping season and Dillard's had only a small handful of shoppers and was closing at 8 pm.

That half of the big parking garage is owned by Macy's. They've made a half-hearted attempt to block access to the upper levels, probably an attempt to defer any liability if something happens there, turning out all the lights is unsurprising.

That parking garage is total >2,000 spaces if memory serves. A redevelopment that bulldozed the front parking garage and created an indoor-outdoor hybrid mall with apartments and a hotel would almost definitely work in that area. Unfortunately, I'm probably talking about a $100-200 million redevelopment on the cheap end.

This is one I'm familar with. Doesn't need to be as grand and certainly not a billion dollars, but it's location is good and can have a nice mix of things if done right.

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/business/collin-creek-mall-redevelopment-project-begins-with-a-bang/2751211/

Quote from: DowntownDan on December 23, 2021, 12:50:33 PM
This is one I'm familar with. Doesn't need to be as grand and certainly not a billion dollars, but it's location is good and can have a nice mix of things if done right.

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/business/collin-creek-mall-redevelopment-project-begins-with-a-bang/2751211/

That looks like it could be a good model for Promenade.  Maybe they could still keep some of the parking structures intact. 

Quote from: ELG4America on December 17, 2021, 08:52:06 PM
That half of the big parking garage is owned by Macy's. They've made a half-hearted attempt to block access to the upper levels, probably an attempt to defer any liability if something happens there, turning out all the lights is unsurprising.

That parking garage is total >2,000 spaces if memory serves. A redevelopment that bulldozed the front parking garage and created an indoor-outdoor hybrid mall with apartments and a hotel would almost definitely work in that area. Unfortunately, I'm probably talking about a $100-200 million redevelopment on the cheap end.

They're probably only a couple years away from having to block off the parking garage because it's not structural sound enough for cars. I drove through it a few years ago to the top and it was in really really bad shape. The amount of sagging, etc. of the concrete was frankly alarming and I know they haven't put money into fixing that.

Promenade is an example of the cycle of mall ownership. It's in the stage that you have capital investors who are just wanting the depreciation off it essentially and have enough rent to make a modest return and will just wait for the property to go into receivership (which I think it might have already went through one receivership a year or two ago).

Hopefully someone who has the ability to redevelop it buys it before the parking garages are beyond repairable. Frankly those are the most valuable things on the site if you demoed the entire mall and rebuilt as a mixed-use development with apartments and ground floor retail spaces. Being able to do that without having to spending any money on a new parking garage makes that idea a lot more economically feasible.

City North in north Phoenix is a development that would fit in the footprint of Promenade. It was originally started in 2004 or 2005 but stalled for a number of years after the financial meltdown. It's just under 1mil sq ft and contains businesses, shopping dining and some residential. The project has started developing again in the las year or so with more growth just east of it.

https://goo.gl/maps/rFgYn8Qt2YsossgbA (https://goo.gl/maps/rFgYn8Qt2YsossgbA)

The one thing that I noticed with the Collin Creek mall, and it applies to the Paradise Valley mall and Metro Center projects is that the areas of redevelopment are inside the ring road around the mall, with established businesses outside the ring road remaining in place. Metro has an already established super Wally World Paradise Valley has a Costco, both have public libraries and bus stops built in, and I believe Metro Center will have a light rail stop with the next expansion project.

City North Google Map
https://goo.gl/maps/rFgYn8Qt2YsossgbA (https://goo.gl/maps/rFgYn8Qt2YsossgbA)

Light Rail to Metro Center project
https://www.yourvalley.net/stories/construction-on-light-rail-extension-in-north-phoenix-begins-in-august,174997 (https://www.yourvalley.net/stories/construction-on-light-rail-extension-in-north-phoenix-begins-in-august,174997)

Quote from: LandArchPoke on December 29, 2021, 11:45:30 AM
They're probably only a couple years away from having to block off the parking garage because it's not structural sound enough for cars. I drove through it a few years ago to the top and it was in really really bad shape. The amount of sagging, etc. of the concrete was frankly alarming and I know they haven't put money into fixing that.

Promenade is an example of the cycle of mall ownership. It's in the stage that you have capital investors who are just wanting the depreciation off it essentially and have enough rent to make a modest return and will just wait for the property to go into receivership (which I think it might have already went through one receivership a year or two ago).

Hopefully someone who has the ability to redevelop it buys it before the parking garages are beyond repairable. Frankly those are the most valuable things on the site if you demoed the entire mall and rebuilt as a mixed-use development with apartments and ground floor retail spaces. Being able to do that without having to spending any money on a new parking garage makes that idea a lot more economically feasible.

I thought the garage on the 41st street side was already closed as unsafe.

Tulsa County is buying Macy's for the new home of the Election Board.  They'll take part of the parking garage as well.

Quote from: Tulsan on January 11, 2022, 08:18:24 PM
Tulsa County is buying Macy's for the new home of the Election Board.  They'll take part of the parking garage as well.

Sort of sounds like a death knell for any larger scale mixed use development, but maybe I'm just jaded.

Quote from: DowntownDan on January 13, 2022, 11:45:20 AM
Sort of sounds like a death knell for any larger scale mixed use development, but maybe I'm just jaded.

Having office space in that building I don't think would hamper redevelopment too much, the Macys building is in decent shape compared to the rest. The part that needs to be demoed is the mall portion. Depending on how the county renovates it, could bring some much needed foot traffic and users to the site.

Quote from: swake on December 29, 2021, 06:22:15 PM
I thought the garage on the 41st street side was already closed as unsafe.

I was talking about the garage on the south end of the property that is attached to the old Macys building along 43rd. If you go to the top levels the sagging of concrete and other issues is pretty alarming and that was a few years ago - it's only gotten worse.

Maybe with the county buying that building that will fix that garage to preserve it. Having that parking structure would be huge to allowing the rest of the site to be redeveloped in a more dense way without having a large expense for new structured parking. 

Quote from: LandArchPoke on January 13, 2022, 01:13:12 PM
Having office space in that building I don't think would hamper redevelopment too much, the Macys building is in decent shape compared to the rest. The part that needs to be demoed is the mall portion. Depending on how the county renovates it, could bring some much needed foot traffic and users to the site I was talking about the garage on the south end of the property that is attached to the old Macys building along 43rd. If you go to the top levels the sagging of concrete and other issues is pretty alarming and that was a few years ago - it's only gotten worse.

Maybe with the county buying that building that will fix that garage to preserve it. Having that parking structure would be huge to allowing the rest of the site to be redeveloped in a more dense way without having a large expense for new structured parking.  

Yeah, the Macy's building is the newest section of the mall. If you go back in time on Google Earth you can see where they extended the Dillard's and the Froug's buildings after they enclosed the mall. Even the skylight sections are where the old entrances were to the interior when it was Southland. The biggest problem I think is the way the whole thing was cobbled together when they enclosed it. It's like the Winchester Mystery House.

I have an aerial photo from a 1967 USGS survey that I will try and post when I get home from work that shows the original mall shape.

1967

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-swLQpK4/2/1037001c/L/i-swLQpK4-L.jpg) (https://kevinallsop.smugmug.com/Misc-3/n-x46z7K/i-swLQpK4/A)

1995

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-LPR2742/1/bd06a286/L/i-LPR2742-L.jpg) (https://kevinallsop.smugmug.com/Misc-3/n-x46z7K/i-LPR2742/A)

2020

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-KQnvjwW/0/66d20fa1/L/i-KQnvjwW-L.jpg) (https://kevinallsop.smugmug.com/Misc-3/n-x46z7K/i-KQnvjwW/A)

I was out and checked on the progress of the Paradise Valley and Metro Center projects.

Paradise Valley being done by Red Development https://www.reddevelopment.com/properties/ is moving along. They started demo in July and have about 2/3rds of the mall (circled) taken down and ground work is moving forward. The blue dot is were photos were taken, south is to the top of the overhead.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-vKVf6FQ/0/54d944c0/M/i-vKVf6FQ-M.jpg) (https://kevinallsop.smugmug.com/PVMetro-Center/n-cTnf25/i-vKVf6FQ/A)

Southeast
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-sVZNngn/0/32276619/M/i-sVZNngn-M.jpg) (https://kevinallsop.smugmug.com/PVMetro-Center/n-cTnf25/i-sVZNngn/A)

South
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-DvcmcgJ/0/545c8b63/M/i-DvcmcgJ-M.jpg) (https://kevinallsop.smugmug.com/PVMetro-Center/n-cTnf25/i-DvcmcgJ/A)

Southwest
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-DvcmcgJ/0/545c8b63/M/i-DvcmcgJ-M.jpg) (https://kevinallsop.smugmug.com/PVMetro-Center/n-cTnf25/i-DvcmcgJ/A)

Red Development's best work is City Scape in downtown Phoenix built during the 2008 to 2012 time frame. https://www.reddevelopment.com/properties/cityscape/ (https://www.reddevelopment.com/properties/cityscape/)

Metro Center has not completed all of the paperwork, but Hines Intelligent Real Estate https://www.hines.com/locations/southwest-region/properties (https://www.hines.com/locations/southwest-region/properties) has plans to demo in 2022 and be going vertical in 2023. The red line in the overhead is where the light rail line is. The  Google Maps link is the most recent as the bridge section over I-17 was placed two weeks ago.

https://goo.gl/maps/yHwZiaFCk7eKewgY9 (https://goo.gl/maps/yHwZiaFCk7eKewgY9)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-VN6t23x/0/3c709b4c/M/i-VN6t23x-M.jpg) (https://kevinallsop.smugmug.com/PVMetro-Center/n-cTnf25/i-VN6t23x/A)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-8VCXqvv/0/d6ba454b/M/i-8VCXqvv-M.jpg) (https://kevinallsop.smugmug.com/PVMetro-Center/n-cTnf25/i-8VCXqvv/A)

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/tulsa-oilers-want-former-macys-at-promenade-for-public-rink-practice-space/article_57679704-b052-11ec-82a6-1f2ff97e47b5.html

Did not have "ice rink" in my top 50 options even.

I like it..

I wonder if OU would takeover the Promenade property, or a portion of it, for their proposed Polytechnic Institute

https://nondoc.com/2022/05/13/ou-polytechnic-institute-planned-tulsa/ (https://nondoc.com/2022/05/13/ou-polytechnic-institute-planned-tulsa/)

More on the Polytechnic Institute that will be located at OU-Tulsa across the street

QuoteNORMAN — With corporate interest growing in the northeast corner of the state, the University of Oklahoma is planning a new technology school in Tulsa to meet workforce demand.

OU Polytechnic Institute would operate on the OU-Tulsa campus, pending approval next month from the OU Board of Regents and later from the Oklahoma State Regents for Higher Education. 

OU President Joseph Harroz Jr. announced the launch at a Friday meeting of the university regents in Norman. A date for the institute to open has not been determined.

The institute would serve students in the final two years of their undergraduate degree and would offer master's and doctoral degrees. 

The move could create a greater foothold for OU in northeast Oklahoma, where university leaders seek a greater presence and clearer identity.

It was "simply neglectful" for OU not to have these courses available in Tulsa, said Frank Keating, chairperson of the OU regents, former governor and Tulsa native.

Great stuff^ Seems like OSU has been making a play to gain in the Tulsa area. Would make sense that OU feels the need to respond.

Quote from: ComeOnBenjals on May 16, 2022, 12:46:24 PM
Great stuff^ Seems like OSU has been making a play to gain in the Tulsa area. Would make sense that OU feels the need to respond.

Great for Tulsa to have a strong OSU presence downtown and for OU to anchor south midtown.  If they can eventually be a part of a larger redevelopment of Promenade even better.

Quote from: SXSW on May 13, 2022, 06:37:19 PM
I wonder if OU would takeover the Promenade property, or a portion of it, for their proposed Polytechnic Institute

https://nondoc.com/2022/05/13/ou-polytechnic-institute-planned-tulsa/ (https://nondoc.com/2022/05/13/ou-polytechnic-institute-planned-tulsa/)

I'd like to see TCC open a Midtown campus at Promenade - then turn the Metro campus into a similar set up with OSU. That would allow both campuses to operate essentially as 4 year undergrad universities. Would make financial sense to build up student housing around both too finally.

Austin Community College Highland campus (former Highland Mall) is a great example. https://www.bgkarchitects.com/acc-highland-phase-i (https://www.bgkarchitects.com/acc-highland-phase-i)

Just an update, I was over in the Paradise Valley Mall area and got a couple of pictures to show the changes since February. The buildings are coming up out of the ground, and more ground work has been done.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-3dNwbKF/0/bfa4f347/L/i-3dNwbKF-L.jpg) (https://kevinallsop.smugmug.com/Misc-3/n-x46z7K/i-3dNwbKF/A)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-hcT9v97/0/feed168a/L/i-hcT9v97-L.jpg) (https://kevinallsop.smugmug.com/Misc-3/n-x46z7K/i-hcT9v97/A)

OU-Tulsa seems to have plenty of land to expand on its own property if necessary, including adding parking garages to replace surface lots. Seems really inconvenient to try and connect it across a really busy street. I like the idea of it becoming a TCC campus and letting downtown focus solely on people looking for a four-year degree in collaboration with OSU-Tulsa. Create some housing and transit circuit between the campuses or have This Machine focus on both campuses since they are so close and with pedal assist you can avoid getting too sweaty even in the summer.

And Promenade Mall is done. Closing this weekend.


https://www.newson6.com/story/6500e990ff356e0706b242aa/promenade-mall-to-close-tenants-must-leave-by-sunday-according-to-letter-from-owners

Dillards isn't actually part of the mall and is open for now. The Gym in the old Mervyn's is also not impacted and the Oilers are continuing construction in the old Macy's for their Oiler's Ice Center.

Hmm, does Dillard's stay or do they end up moving? 

Quote from: SXSW on September 15, 2023, 09:14:09 AM
Hmm, does Dillard's stay or do they end up moving?  

I would think the only place to move to in midtown is Utica

I thought I read somewhere that Dillard's actually owns the building they are in.

Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on September 15, 2023, 11:26:21 AM
I thought I read somewhere that Dillard's actually owns the building they are in.

They do, that's why they are not impacted by the mall closing. The old Anchor stores are actually separate buildings.

Most malls as I understand deed the anchor buildings separately. My guess is that a full redevelopment will occur within the next decade that demolishes the interior and makes it more of an outdoor shopping center. The Oilers center should be a centerpiece for mixed use, but we all know it'll just be more mattress and cellphone stores.

IIRC, the original anchor stores for Southland were Brown Dunkin/Dillard's, JC Penney and Frougs and one other I can't think of. I know TG&Y had a store there, and Clarke's.

They are in the process of tearing down two malls here that have been closed for a few years. One already has new development plans in the works, Metro Center, and the other is Fiesta Mall in Mesa. That area is going the a renewal period along with Mesa in general. There are now only two traditional indoor malls left on opposite sides of the valley.

Will be interesting to see what happens with Promenade.

As someone who lives in the neighborhood next to the mall, I have been glad to see more and more spaces being used as something different than shopping. The Hockey rinks will be nice. And really hope what is left of the mall part is bought by someone else and the spaces used.  

Don't think it's really the best spot for shopping unless they pull in some "destination/attraction shopping" of some sort and do extensive remodeling. And yes, would love to see it returned to some sort of outdoor space again.  The sad thing is how the parking garage in front blocks the central mall part from view and creates a depressing and bland, psychological "blockage" along 41st. You really have to have something special to draw people in past that. And right off the top, I don't know what that could be. There is no "need" or demand for more shopping in the area, of any type I can think of, so any shopping would have to be unique or special enough to pull from a wide area. Again, destination shopping. Some services might work "I am looking for.... where is the nearest and best one to me?"  It could make for some unique office space.  An educational facility. Natural History Museum, Modern Art Museum, Meow Wolf, more indoor sports. It has some great infrastructure and potential, just needs a different direction and an owner with creative vision.  

I still think the best solution is to tear down the mall and garage along 41st.  Keep Dillard's as an east anchor and keep the Oilers Ice Arena as a west anchor and get rid of the rest.  Then extend the street grid through the property - Braden Place from 41st to 43rd with a new light at 41st, 47th St with a new light at Yale and 42nd from Yale to Darlington.  Then sell off and build out the remaining parcels as a mixed-use retail center.  

This is what they did in Westminster, CO with their dead mall - they kept JCPenney as an anchor and tore down the rest of the indoor mall.  Then sold off the parcels around it but with a master plan to achieve the necessary density and mix of uses (housing, hotel, retail, etc).  It's been a huge success and would be a great model for Promenade to follow.

(https://www.cnu.org/sites/default/files/Downtown%20Westminster%20-%20The%20Neighborhood%20-%201.jpg)

https://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/construction-delays-westreet-opening-anticipating-roughly-a-month (https://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/construction-delays-westreet-opening-anticipating-roughly-a-month)

QuoteTULSA, Okla. — The much-anticipated ice center and entertainment venue called WeStreet Ice Center at Tulsa's Promenade Mall was first scheduled to open in December but ran into some construction delays.

Progress is still well underway in the former Macy's location. The ice for the two rinks went in the second week of January. In addition to a new practice space for the Tulsa Oilers, the 140,000 square foot venue will offer public skate, figure skating, curling, lessons and league play—basically anything on ice.

There will also be a full arcade, pro shop, golf and hockey simulators and a 400-seat upscale restaurant and bar named Puck's—all under one roof.

And speaking of the roof, the renovation of this one is a story Andy Scurto, Tulsa Oilers and WeStreet Ice Center Owner, said engineers are marveling over.

When the facility was a department store, there were several columns supporting the roof. Those columns needed to be removed for an ice rink. In order to do that, Scurto says engineers designed a cutting-edge inverted bowstring truss to keep the roof secure. It is the first of its kind built in the United States.

"Most of the time, you build a building and It's the same ol', same ol'," said Scurto. "This is truly engineering—they had to figure this out."

Quote from: brettakins on February 07, 2024, 09:33:03 PM
https://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/construction-delays-westreet-opening-anticipating-roughly-a-month (https://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/construction-delays-westreet-opening-anticipating-roughly-a-month)

They have announced (on their FB page) there will be grand opening on March 9th.

The WeStreet Ice Center turned out to be a pretty cool facility. This is a great addition to the city for Hockey fans and families.

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/business/inside-look-at-new-ice-and-entertainment-center-in-former-macys-at-promenade-mall/article_19b13e54-d4fb-11ee-8dad-7394944d8de6.html#tracking-source=home-top-story (https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/business/inside-look-at-new-ice-and-entertainment-center-in-former-macys-at-promenade-mall/article_19b13e54-d4fb-11ee-8dad-7394944d8de6.html#tracking-source=home-top-story)

Quote from: smitteebc on March 08, 2024, 08:13:01 AM
The WeStreet Ice Center turned out to be a pretty cool facility. This is a great addition to the city for Hockey fans and families.

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/business/inside-look-at-new-ice-and-entertainment-center-in-former-macys-at-promenade-mall/article_19b13e54-d4fb-11ee-8dad-7394944d8de6.html#tracking-source=home-top-story (https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/business/inside-look-at-new-ice-and-entertainment-center-in-former-macys-at-promenade-mall/article_19b13e54-d4fb-11ee-8dad-7394944d8de6.html#tracking-source=home-top-story)

I went around noon, it was packed.  Not a parking spot to be found.  Great facility.  Exceeded my expectations.

I took some photos (https://photos.app.goo.gl/cgbUkcqgVcz1xKK39)

EDIT:  going Wednesday afternoon for lunch at the new bar/grill, but will take many more photos now that it's no longer the grand opening which was crazy busy.

The ice center looks good. Hope that it's a success.

Quote from: SXSW on September 15, 2023, 09:14:09 AM
Hmm, does Dillard's stay or do they end up moving? 

It's weird.  I went there Saturday going to the new Westreet Ice Center not realizing the Mall had closed.  But Dillards was still open and busy with a sale and the flyers they had up didn't infer they were moving.  To the contrary, the flyers indicated they were 'remodeling'.

Quote from: Hoss on March 11, 2024, 11:59:55 AM
..Dillards was still open and busy with a sale and the flyers they had up didn't infer they were moving.  To the contrary, the flyers indicated they were 'remodeling'.

They are turning it into a regional Dillards Outlet location.

https://uhat.org/rfp-rfq/
https://uhat.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/240927-SCC-RFQ_ARCHITECT.pdf

It makes sense that this is going in on their existing land, but I was sorta hoping that they would be reusing some of promenade for it.

Quote from: buffalodan on April 24, 2024, 08:59:40 AM
https://uhat.org/rfp-rfq/
https://uhat.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/240927-SCC-RFQ_ARCHITECT.pdf

It makes sense that this is going in on their existing land, but I was sorta hoping that they would be reusing some of promenade for it.

Great to see a $150M cancer hospital built on an infill site in midtown.  This only helps the case for the eventual redevelopment of Promenade into mixed-use housing with the ice arena and possibly Dillard's as anchor tenants.