Bixby located at the southern end of Tulsa is one of the fastest growing cities in the state of Oklahoma. Bixby has seen recent developments on the northern side of town around memorial and it's always busy. Bixby may need an expressway for infrastructure reasons helping out with rapid population growth.
Maybe... if we were like Texas there'd already be one. This is Oklahoma and it will take another decade or two before we even begin to discuss such things, and then another couple to get dirt moving. I could see a potential route following close to Haikey creek and connecting to the Creek Turnpike eventually.
Here's the thing though, will we still be using the same type of transportation twenty years in the future? Electric, autonomous vehicles are already a reality and are rapidly increasing in popularity. Younger people are seeking out more urban lifestyles and moving closer to the core of the city. Mass transit is becoming more popular again.
Maybe we should get real progressive and start discussing the feasibility of commuter rail/street car/rapid bus down to Bixby.
If you move to a suburb for "cheap" housing, you take it as is. Don't come asking me as a taxpayer to spend a few billion dollars to make your commute easier. You chose to live there and didn't absorb the cost of a new road. I feel the same about road widening.
I could maybe see turnpike expansion depending on how those are paying back, but that would be a 2030s type of development I imagine. I think it makes more sense to remove the drives from Hwy 67 than it does to connect take a road through Haikey. People north of the river are already within a few miles of a highway, so I don't think you unlock anything by building that. If you go to the SW side of the river though you could create a ton of new cheap land. I think they could do better just by offering better connections to their residents. Do they have a plan to at least 3-lane any N/S roads, or are they depending on memorial for everything? Their neighborhood roads probably have better throughput capacity than Sheridan does.
That said, I agree with Downtown Dan. Don't tax me to fund expensive sprawl. The appeal of that area is how remote you are from the city. You shouldn't be moving there because you expect the government to make it easy to travel downtown eventually.
Agreed. Building more and more roads when we can't even properly maintain the roads we have is irresponsible and bad policy.
Quote from: DowntownDan on August 01, 2019, 01:28:21 PM
If you move to a suburb for "cheap" housing, you take it as is. Don't come asking me as a taxpayer to spend a few billion dollars to make your commute easier. You chose to live there and didn't absorb the cost of a new road. I feel the same about road widening.
Back to that discussion?
We really need to think of ourselves as a region, not a bunch of fiefdoms.
I don't think Bixby needs an expressway but another bridge over the Arkansas River would go a long way to reducing traffic intensity on Memorial. So far the rich folks on Yale have stopped even a toll bridge in that area.
Public transit is almost never without subsidies. Do you believe all the money for MTTA comes from within Tulsa City limits?
I believe all roads should be electronic toll roads (and or privately built and maintained). Only those using the road should pay for it. The more you drive, the more roads you go over, the more you pay. Wider roads and intersections cost more. Highways cost more. etc.
Quote from: TheArtist on August 02, 2019, 08:09:51 AM
I believe all roads should be electronic toll roads (and or privately built and maintained). Only those using the road should pay for it. The more you drive, the more roads you go over, the more you pay. Wider roads and intersections cost more. Highways cost more. etc.
The gas tax used to be a really good proxy for a user fee without getting into all the implications for making parts of town more expensive for a person to travel. I don't hate toll roads in general, but turning city streets into toll roads when we don't even have sidewalks connecting everything just seems like a slap in a face to so many people.
As far as a bridge, I get why people want that, but there isn't a ton of development south of the river anyway. We have quite a bit of land left to develop around tulsa, so I'm not sure spending the money on a bridge to unlock those acres makes sense to me. Bixby specifically has fully developed areas served by small 2 lane roads without any sidewalks or bike trails. Once they convince me that they have the power to fix those issues, we can talk about helping them get more land.
Quote from: buffalodan on August 02, 2019, 11:35:16 AM
Bixby specifically has fully developed areas served by small 2 lane roads without any sidewalks or bike trails. Once they convince me that they have the power to fix those issues, we can talk about helping them get more land.
Our neighborhood has large lots. We don't have sidewalks, don't need them and I don't want them. If you cannot ride a bike in our neighborhood without a specific bike lane or trail, you probably shouldn't be riding anyway.
As far as more land is concerned, I'd rather the city not promote apartments, etc. We also have enough additions with houses 5 feet from each other. If you want to hear your neighbor talking in the kitchen, move to Tulsa. But even that won't help in sections of mid-town.
Quote from: TheArtist on August 02, 2019, 08:09:51 AM
I believe all roads should be electronic toll roads (and or privately built and maintained). Only those using the road should pay for it. The more you drive, the more roads you go over, the more you pay. Wider roads and intersections cost more. Highways cost more. etc.
Only if public transit is totally unsubsidized. That would include transit buses paying tolls equal to other vehicles the same size/weight using those roads. The tolls paid by buses would go to maintaining the road, not rebated to the transit authority.
Buses and other vehicles using the road for free that the (real) trolley companies had to maintain as part of the right-of-way was a large contributor to the demise of most trolley / streetcar companies.
Quote from: Red Arrow on August 01, 2019, 10:48:46 PM
Back to that discussion?
We really need to think of ourselves as a region, not a bunch of fiefdoms.
I don't think Bixby needs an expressway but another bridge over the Arkansas River would go a long way to reducing traffic intensity on Memorial. So far the rich folks on Yale have stopped even a toll bridge in that area.
Public transit is almost never without subsidies. Do you believe all the money for MTTA comes from within Tulsa City limits?
Another bridge, or two, are exactly what is needed.
Wasn't the Creek Turnpike originally supposed to be built further South? I seem to remember it was supposed to be aligned along 121st or somewhere around there. Might have dreamed it though, that was a long time and way fewer gray hairs ago.
The regional transportation plan at one time included a bridge at 121st St.
Quote from: Red Arrow on August 02, 2019, 02:58:54 PM
If you want to hear your neighbor talking in the kitchen, move to Tulsa. But even that won't help in sections of mid-town.
What do you mean by that?
I've lived in Tulsa a long time and have never heard neighbors talking in their kitchens in any house. Are there parts of Tulsa where the construction was so lousy and thin-walled and compact that you can hear your neighbors talking in another house? If that's the case, is that unique to Tulsa and not in the suburbs? It seems like there's more low-quality subdivisions in the suburbs.
Quote from: TulsaGoldenHurriCAN on August 07, 2019, 03:15:03 PM
What do you mean by that?
I've lived in Tulsa a long time and have never heard neighbors talking in their kitchens in any house. Are there parts of Tulsa where the construction was so lousy and thin-walled and compact that you can hear your neighbors talking in another house? If that's the case, is that unique to Tulsa and not in the suburbs? It seems like there's more low-quality subdivisions in the suburbs.
You are reading waaaay too much into it. I only meant the houses are really close together in a lot of places. But... there are sections of mid-town where the houses are not jam packed.
Quote from: DowntownDan on August 01, 2019, 01:28:21 PM
If you move to a suburb for "cheap" housing, you take it as is. Don't come asking me as a taxpayer to spend a few billion dollars to make your commute easier. You chose to live there and didn't absorb the cost of a new road. I feel the same about road widening.
You never go out past about 21st and Peoria??
It's a shared experience that does actually benefit all. If you go by that logic, then downtown should receive the smallest bit of support from taxes, since it is what, maybe 3 or 4% of our metro land area? Or maybe should just put a toll booth at 21st for anyone leaving town....
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on August 23, 2019, 06:56:58 PM
You never go out past about 21st and Peoria??
It's a shared experience that does actually benefit all. If you go by that logic, then downtown should receive the smallest bit of support from taxes, since it is what, maybe 3 or 4% of our metro land area? Or maybe should just put a toll booth at 21st for anyone leaving town....
Not trying to go off on a tangent too much, but according to https://www.publicradiotulsa.org/post/analysis-downtown-tulsa-accounts-07-city-land-20-sales-tax-collections (https://www.publicradiotulsa.org/post/analysis-downtown-tulsa-accounts-07-city-land-20-sales-tax-collections), Downtown is closer to half a percentage of the metro land area
Quote from: MostSeriousness on August 26, 2019, 08:27:03 AM
Not trying to go off on a tangent too much, but according to https://www.publicradiotulsa.org/post/analysis-downtown-tulsa-accounts-07-city-land-20-sales-tax-collections (https://www.publicradiotulsa.org/post/analysis-downtown-tulsa-accounts-07-city-land-20-sales-tax-collections), Downtown is closer to half a percentage of the metro land area
That article stopped downtown at the inner dispersal loop. I was giving it too big an area...
Am very curious about those offsets from business' with locations outside the loop. Can't think of all of them now, but Coney Islander would be prime example - they gotta have some decent sales tax reporting with only one store downtown, but a whole bunch more outside the loop. Since those numbers are all lumped together, that 20% is probably a little high.
And there is also massive blocks of land (my neighborhood for example) where there are no sales taxes, but the land makes up huge amount of metro area. Can't see a great way to compare those things - apples and soybeans comparison...
We don't want to end up getting locally polarized by downtown/suburb isolationism, though. I feel the 71st street bridge brought at the very least indirect benefit to me, so no complaint about it, even though it is far away and I virtually never cross it. Same thing with Bixby - needs better access there. But we have the same problem as our overall infrastructure issues - growth for growth's sake with no regard for how to maintain/support it in the future. And I know the running joke is, "that's a long ways off so we won't have to worry about it..."
Loosely tied to the idea of making stuff...I was looking around for architect this morning and found the TFA Tulsa Foundation for Architecture. And the first link caught my eye - interesting article and the drawing from 1942 resonated. Will be checking in from time to time to see if they are selling prints yet.
https://tulsaarchitecture.org/from-the-tfa-archives-tulsa-contributes-to-the-nation/
They also have another page that I can't find again that shows the result of Tulsa's Insanity over urban renewal. It toggles back and forth between 1978 when most of the original buildings remained looking up Main, I think. And 2005 when our "growth for growth's sake" obsession had decimated many of the old buildings and gave us such a wonderful landscape of parking lots! Good work, Tulsa!
Here is more news regarding the fastly growing suburb of Bixby. As of May of 2022, the city of Bixby has a $30 million dollar development in downtown. (Their biggest development planned ever at the moment. Expect more of these in the near future after this is done with construction) The project will be along 151st street and Memorial behind the CVS Pharmacy. The development will include 150 luxury apartments which will have 4 additional stories. It will include a workout facility and a pool. On the ground level, there will be 15,000 sq ft of retail and a 300 car parking car garage. This will be a major development for Bixby and expect things to grow exponentially especially downtown in the next 5-10 years which will look extremely different than it is now. Here is a link to the story with renderings:
https://www.newson6.com/story/62798c7aeaecee07218f87d7/bixby-announces-major-downtown-development-announcement-
Also to keep a note, the city of Bixby passed a $110 million bond issue to build and improve the High school (With upgrades to their athletic facilities as well including the increase of the football stadium capacity). This is a sign that the suburb is growing rapidly, and only to see the suburbs' stock rise in the next couple of decades.
https://www.krmg.com/news/bixby-parents-vote-110-million-bond-build-new-high-school-academic-building/MBKSB3U4VFHUTGUDGQ54C6YZBU/
Here are the renderings of the new High school academic building:
https://kktarchitects.com/projects/bixby-high-school-academic-building/
The pointless Gilcrease loop under construction in west Tulsa should have been built as a turnpike connecting 151st to the southwest corner of the Creek turnpike around south Broken Arrow. But that ship has sailed and with more and more houses built in that potential path and the money spent on Gilcrease.
Quote from: swake on June 18, 2022, 01:48:23 PM
The pointless Gilcrease loop under construction in west Tulsa should have been built as a turnpike connecting 151st to the southwest corner of the Creek turnpike around south Broken Arrow. But that ship has sailed and with more and more houses built in that potential path and the money spent on Gilcrease.
JMO, build it from Kellyville to the Creek at the curve at 121st between County Line and 209th E Ave or run it out to Coweta with a connection to Hwy 51 as well as the Muskogee Turnpike.
I agree, south of Tulsa is where we will see most of the rapid growth in the next couple of decades besides Owasso. I think creating a tollway connecting I-44 then wraps around sapulpa through glendpool and Bixby, cross the River and connect to the turnpike would be great. Sadly, Oklahoma seems to take forever on infrastructure unlike if this were in Texas would be considered much faster. We'll just have to see these coming decades as the metro population shifts southward.
Quote from: Okie1986 on June 18, 2022, 04:42:08 PM
I think creating a tollway connecting I-44 then wraps around sapulpa through glendpool and Bixby, cross the River and connect to the turnpike would be great.
There needs to be a nation-wide "Pike Pass". The Plate Pay fees are absurd, in spite of what the OTA says. But, it's not just Oklahoma. I looked at driving to NJ, just east of Philadelphia to visit some friends and the few relatives still in the area. The PA Turnpike toll is about $30 with EZ Pass. It's about $60 with the Plate Pay. I could take a route that avoids the PA Turnpike and, according to Google Maps, only takes about an hour longer and 50 more miles. Gas and wear and tear on the car would probably be worth $30 but $60 is pushing the limit.
Out of curiosity, I looked up the toll calculator and planned a route using the Kilpatrick from west of OKC to the Turner & I-35 and was floored by the price difference between toll tag and plate pay. Brings a new meaning to highway robbery to charge double the price.
As much as California gouges people, the price difference between plate pay and toll tag is on average a dollar, although they have different rates for different times of day.
https://www.thetollroads.com/tolls/toll-calculator/ (https://www.thetollroads.com/tolls/toll-calculator/)
https://www.bayareafastrak.org/en/about/pay-tolls-violations.shtml (https://www.bayareafastrak.org/en/about/pay-tolls-violations.shtml)
I got a CA FasTrak pass when I lived in Oregon since I traveled through CA quite a bit. I mainly used it for the bridges in San Francisco and the Express Lanes on I-680 and I-580.
A national tag would be great, but getting 20 some odd turnpike authorities to agree on one system is doubtful, which is surprising since OTR truckers have ID transponders for truck scales where they actually weigh the truck while it's moving.
Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on June 19, 2022, 06:45:17 PM
Out of curiosity, I looked up the toll calculator and planned a route using the Kilpatrick from west of OKC to the Turner & I-35 and was floored by the price difference between toll tag and plate pay.
My sister lives in New Mexico. I got a portable (suction cup type, not the permanent sticker) Pike Pass for her for when she visits.
Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on June 19, 2022, 06:45:17 PM
A national tag would be great, but getting 20 some odd turnpike authorities to agree on one system is doubtful, which is surprising since OTR truckers have ID transponders for truck scales where they actually weigh the truck while it's moving.
I am not advocating the tag become a federal thing. I believe a national standard for the transponders is in order. That way any state could bill the tag holder's own state. That would negate the claim of the time and effort to trace a license plate. As much as I dislike Federal mandates, the Feds could say to use the new standard or loose federal funding for highways. I expect OK would resist at first claiming some sort of personal or states' rights freedom BS. We do have a LOT of national standards such as a mile is 5280 ft. (Nautical miles are 6076.115 ft (https://duckduckgo.com/?q=nautical+mile&t=h_&ia=answer)), an inch is 25.4 mm, a 1/4-20 bolt made in OK will accept a 1/4-20 nut made in TN and so on.
The tax on gasoline/diesel fuel worked reasonably well when cars got 12 MPG, not so much with 30+ MPG cars, even worse with electric vehicles. We probably have some rethinking to do on how to pay for roads. Any form of public transit using public roads needs to pay its fair share of road maintenance/construction. I'm not against some subsidies for public transit but those subsidies need to feed the road costs directly.
I was thinking the same about the transponder. Make them programmable to identify the user and charge the users account what ever the toll is. I'm not a big fan of plate pay, that's why I still have my FasTrak transponder for California.
As for gas/diesel taxes to pay for roads, Arizona got smart back in the mid 80's and proposed and passed by the voters a half cent sales tax specifically for transportation, highways/arterial streets/public transportation. It comes up for renewal every 20 years, and was passed by the voters in 2004 without issue, and is coming up for renewal again in 2024 and sounds like it will pass again.
The federal government has required interoperability since 2016. It has just never worked. It works regionally now, but not nationwide.
Quote from: swake on June 19, 2022, 11:58:13 PM
The federal government has required interoperability since 2016. It has just never worked. It works regionally now, but not nationwide.
I seem to remember reading about that here a few years ago in a discussion about using the Oklahoma Pike Pass on the North Dallas Tollway and vice versa.
Quote from: Okie1986 on June 18, 2022, 07:25:51 AM
Here is more news regarding the fastly growing suburb of Bixby. As of May of 2022, the city of Bixby has a $30 million dollar development in downtown. (Their biggest development planned ever at the moment. Expect more of these in the near future after this is done with construction) The project will be along 151st street and Memorial behind the CVS Pharmacy. The development will include 150 luxury apartments which will have 4 additional stories. It will include a workout facility and a pool. On the ground level, there will be 15,000 sq ft of retail and a 300 car parking car garage. This will be a major development for Bixby and expect things to grow exponentially especially downtown in the next 5-10 years which will look extremely different than it is now. Here is a link to the story with renderings:
https://www.newson6.com/story/62798c7aeaecee07218f87d7/bixby-announces-major-downtown-development-announcement-
Also to keep a note, the city of Bixby passed a $110 million bond issue to build and improve the High school (With upgrades to their athletic facilities as well including the increase of the football stadium capacity). This is a sign that the suburb is growing rapidly, and only to see the suburbs' stock rise in the next couple of decades.
https://www.krmg.com/news/bixby-parents-vote-110-million-bond-build-new-high-school-academic-building/MBKSB3U4VFHUTGUDGQ54C6YZBU/
Here are the renderings of the new High school academic building:
https://kktarchitects.com/projects/bixby-high-school-academic-building/
What a horrifically boring looking development. Like they went to the store where Plano, TX gets their development plans and bought the generic off-brand version. And I will reiterate, don't expect me to pay taxes to make your environment destroying commute easier. I'll never understand why suburban sprawl is "cheap" for homebuyers. The economics make no sense, everyone else pays for the infrastructure to their oversized balsa wood tinker toy houses. Yes, I find it very annoying.
Quote from: swake on June 19, 2022, 11:58:13 PM
The federal government has required interoperability since 2016. It has just never worked. It works regionally now, but not nationwide.
I believe the Oklahoma Pike Pass works in Texas and Kansas in addition to OK.
Quote from: DowntownDan on June 20, 2022, 10:10:34 AM
And I will reiterate, don't expect me to pay taxes to make your environment destroying commute easier.
I believe the days when everyone could walk to work are long gone. The days of unsubsidized public transit are also long gone.
Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on June 19, 2022, 11:54:28 PM
As for gas/diesel taxes to pay for roads, Arizona got smart back in the mid 80's and proposed and passed by the voters a half cent sales tax specifically for transportation, highways/arterial streets/public transportation.
This site: https://igentax.com/gas-tax-state/ indicates that AZ also has an $0.18/gal tax on gas and the same or $0.26/gal for diesel. They don't clarify the "or". Oklahoma is $0.19/gal for gas and $0.16/gal for diesel.
I don't believe a tax specifically for transportation etc will work in OK. We have a history of passing a tax to fund something specific and then take the money already being spent on that to spend on something else.
Quote from: Red Arrow on June 20, 2022, 03:21:43 PM
This site: https://igentax.com/gas-tax-state/ indicates that AZ also has an $0.18/gal tax on gas and the same or $0.26/gal for diesel. They don't clarify the "or". Oklahoma is $0.19/gal for gas and $0.16/gal for diesel.
I don't believe a tax specifically for transportation etc will work in OK. We have a history of passing a tax to fund something specific and then take the money already being spent on that to spend on something else.
Yeah, I'm not sure what the "OR" is. I misspoke about the tax, it's Maricopa County not the State. When the tax was initially passed Phoenix had ~80 miles of freeway, US 60 from Apache Junction to Tempe and I-17 from Flagstaff to Sky Harbor Airport. From the linked article, people wanted to raise the fuel taxes instead of a sales tax, and the sales tax was easier to take.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1985/10/05/phoenix-voters-weighing-tax-boost-vs-freeways/20aee027-c0c3-402f-92e0-7d94c7dbb078/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1985/10/05/phoenix-voters-weighing-tax-boost-vs-freeways/20aee027-c0c3-402f-92e0-7d94c7dbb078/)
I remember from growing up in Tulsa a lot of great promises only to have the city or the state rob Peter to pay Paul attitude, and I'm sure that if a transportation tax was passed it would get raided to pay for other things.
QuoteArizona House Bill 2292, which passed in the spring 2003 session of the Arizona Legislature, established the Maricopa Association of Governments Transportation Policy Committee which was tasked with developing a Regional Transportation Plan for Maricopa County, and established the process for an election to extend the current half-cent County Transportation Excise Tax. On November 2, 2004, voters in Maricopa County approved Proposition 400 to extend the half-cent sales tax for transportation for an additional 20 years to 2026. The extension began January 1, 2006 and ends on December 31, 2025.
In accordance with Arizona Revised Statutes §42-6105.E, 56.2 percent of the Proposition 400 sales tax collections is distributed to freeways and state highways; 10.5 percent is distributed to arterial street improvements; and 33.3 percent is distributed to the public transportation fund. The Regional Transportation Plan thus has three major components: Freeways/Highways, Arterial Streets, and Transit.
The Regional Transportation Plan Freeway Program includes new freeway corridors to serve growth in the region, and improvements to the existing system of freeways and highways to reduce current and future congestion and improve safety. The work includes new freeway corridors, additional lanes on existing facilities, and new interchanges at arterial cross streets, high occupancy vehicle ramps at system interchanges, noise mitigation, litter and landscape maintenance programs, freeway management systems, and freeway service patrols.
The Regional Transportation Plan Freeway Program is funded by three primary revenue sources: the Proposition 400 half-cent sales tax, ADOT funds dedicated for use in Maricopa County, and federal highway funds.
https://azdot.gov/planning/transportation-programming/regional-programming (https://azdot.gov/planning/transportation-programming/regional-programming)
QuoteFor nearly 40 years, a half-cent voter-approved sales tax has helped pay for roads, freeways and transit needs in Maricopa County as the region grew its population and economy robustly.
The time to re-up that critical commitment has come.
The cities in Maricopa County have unanimously asked that Arizona lawmakers pass House Bill 2598 and Senate Bill 1356 to put the expiring transportation sales tax on the Nov. 8 ballot for renewal.
The tax, first passed by voters in 1985 and reauthorized in 2004, is set to expire in 2025. Without an extension, both the county's regional transportation plan and the funding will lapse.
Maricopa County cannot afford to fall behind.
These investments made us who we are
In 1980, the county boasted a little more than 1.5 million people. The only freeway serving the area was the Interstate 17 running through central Phoenix and ending near Sky Harbor International Airport.
Four decades later, Maricopa County's population has nearly tripled to 4.4 million people and is again the fastest-growing in the United States – adding more than 81,000 people to the Valley in 2018 alone.
The economic attractiveness of our region is undeniable. We are blessed with incredible natural beauty, superb weather and a comparatively low cost of living.
The visionary leaders who came before us laid the groundwork for the infrastructure necessary to sustain and accommodate this economic miracle.
In 1985, government and business leaders throughout Maricopa County came together to pass Proposition 300 to fund the county's first regional transportation plan. Their success launched one of the largest highway construction programs in the United States. Proposition 300 included 231 miles of new freeways including the acquisition of land to begin the construction of Loop 101, Loop 202, Loop 303 and State Route 51.
In 2004, once again, regional governments and business leaders came together to pass Proposition 400, a 20-year extension of the half-cent sales tax to fund:
Construction of Loop 202, the South Mountain Freeway, and Loop 303, the Estrella Freeway.
Additional lanes on I-10, I-17, SR 51, Loop 101 and Loop 202.
Improvements to the Grand Avenue stretch of U.S. 60.
Improvements to 36 intersections.
Construction of more than 225 miles of new or improved roadways.
Contributions toward bus service on the regional supergrid and "express" commuter bus service.
Construction of light rail extensions in Mesa, Tempe and Phoenix.
Regionwide paratransit service for seniors and persons with disabilities.
Four of five jobs in Maricopa County are within two miles of a freeway or light rail corridor. More than half of the major employers are located within a half mile of these corridors.
https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/2022/03/23/maricopa-county-needs-lawmakers-ok-ask-voters-transportation-sales-tax/9453958002/ (https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/2022/03/23/maricopa-county-needs-lawmakers-ok-ask-voters-transportation-sales-tax/9453958002/)