The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

https://ktul.com/news/local/electric-car-plant-coming-to-pryor

Auto manufacturer Canoo has announced it will bring 2,000 high-paying jobs to MidAmerica Industrial Park with new production site.

I have never heard of Canoo, and their cars look ridiculous, but I'm excited for the jobs! We didn't get Tesla, but this could be a great catalyst for us all the same!

Their vans do look pretty useful, but their truck model is going to need a work-over... At least they are unique!

Quote from: shavethewhales on June 17, 2021, 11:15:39 AM
https://ktul.com/news/local/electric-car-plant-coming-to-pryor

Auto manufacturer Canoo has announced it will bring 2,000 high-paying jobs to MidAmerica Industrial Park with new production site.

I have never heard of Canoo, and their cars look ridiculous, but I'm excited for the jobs! We didn't get Tesla, but this could be a great catalyst for us all the same!

Their vans do look pretty useful, but their truck model is going to need a work-over... At least they are unique!

These EV manufacturers will develop clusters in different parts of the country.  Getting one plant should enable us to get others as the labor pool builds up and suppliers are attracted to the area.  This bodes well for potentially attracting other manufacturers like Tesla or Rivian. 

Quote from: shavethewhales on June 17, 2021, 11:15:39 AM
https://ktul.com/news/local/electric-car-plant-coming-to-pryor

Auto manufacturer Canoo has announced it will bring 2,000 high-paying jobs to MidAmerica Industrial Park with new production site.

I have never heard of Canoo, and their cars look ridiculous, but I'm excited for the jobs! We didn't get Tesla, but this could be a great catalyst for us all the same!

Their vans do look pretty useful, but their truck model is going to need a work-over... At least they are unique!

I had never heard of this group either. The cargo van does actually look pretty useful and could be a huge market given Amazon is moving to electric delivery vans. I'm sure at some point UPS, Fedex, etc. will move that way too and seems like they are positions to be an alternative to Rivian for that segment. The truck is a bit odd to say the least. It looks more like a recreation vehicle than an actual practical everyday car. It looks like something you'd have at a vacation house to go off roading or something.

I hope this group is successful. Would definitely give our region a leg up when anyone else is looking for new locations for battery and/or electric car production by co-locating.

Still a very speculative company, but really hope this works out.  Speaking of electric trucks, my old truck is hanging in there but want a new one and would like to go electric.  Would like a Tesla but am now looking at the new Ford Maverick Hybrid.  Small and inexpensive, which is great for city parking, but will still get the job done work wise, and has some nice features. The Canoo Truck looks nice and also has some fun extra features, but can't hold out that long to get something. Air just went out in the old truck, got it working again but the poor old thing aint gonna last long lol.

Will be needing a new car soon as well which is what we may hold out for in getting an all electric vehicle. They need to get these electric vehicles online asap!

Quote from: TheArtist on June 17, 2021, 04:45:48 PM
Air just went out in the old truck, got it working again but the poor old thing aint gonna last long lol.

I waited until the transmission went on my old car to get a new one.  The AC wasn't working for several years.   ;D

Quote from: TheArtist on June 17, 2021, 04:45:48 PM
Still a very speculative company, but really hope this works out.  Speaking of electric trucks, my old truck is hanging in there but want a new one and would like to go electric.  Would like a Tesla but am now looking at the new Ford Maverick Hybrid.  Small and inexpensive, which is great for city parking, but will still get the job done work wise, and has some nice features. The Canoo Truck looks nice and also has some fun extra features, but can't hold out that long to get something. Air just went out in the old truck, got it working again but the poor old thing aint gonna last long lol.

Will be needing a new car soon as well which is what we may hold out for in getting an all electric vehicle. They need to get these electric vehicles online asap!

Off topic I know, but you might look into the plug in hybrids. Volvo's go 20-30 miles on a charge depending on the model and then have a gas tank that kicks in after that. That range gets you pretty much anywhere in town and really only use gas for longer road trips. The XC40's are a decent size and good quality and they have 100% electric version already available. The bigger SUV's XC60 & 90 have all electric models coming out in the next 12 months too. Volvo is pretty under the radar but their battery and hybrid tech is probably the closest to Tesla - just doesn't get the same attention. There's still pretty hefty tax credits for electric cars too.  

I do hope this is not a Foxconn type situation, where nothing pans out. I hope this company is successful and hopefully if they are announcing a plant for production they've got some customers lined up. The delivery/service industry seems like a good area to go after, there's not a dominate electric car producer in that segment. Tesla seems uninterested in delivery vans. Rivian is still pretty new and is likely only going to be focused on Amazon vehicle deliveries for a few years so that leaves that market wide open for someone like Canoo if they can execute on product.

Quote from: LandArchPoke on June 17, 2021, 12:47:42 PM
I had never heard of this group either. The cargo van does actually look pretty useful and could be a huge market given Amazon is moving to electric delivery vans. I'm sure at some point UPS, Fedex, etc. will move that way too and seems like they are positions to be an alternative to Rivian for that segment. The truck is a bit odd to say the least. It looks more like a recreation vehicle than an actual practical everyday car. It looks like something you'd have at a vacation house to go off roading or something.

I hope this group is successful. Would definitely give our region a leg up when anyone else is looking for new locations for battery and/or electric car production by co-locating.

I have been following this group for a while.  I think/hope they are legit.  It is an odd looking vehicle, but some of the off-road rigged out versions are pretty interesting looking.

Great news, hope it works out! Would love for Tulsa to build some EV momentum. Tesla is a big name, but certainly not going to be the only company building manufacturing plants.

Electric Car Plant, good news for our sister city of Tulsa.   A plant of this size and magnitude is sure to attract a number of satellite companies to neighboring Tulsa.

This factory will be a great boost for the area.  Most of your skilled work force will be hired from the Tulsa metro area requiring an easy 44 minute drive or less on I-44 from Tulsa to Pryor.  Credit Governor Stitt who I understand was instrumental in making this possible.

Admit I' m not a fan of Governor Stitt who I like to refer to as Governor 'Jethro Bodine' Stitt; however give credit where credit is due.  Also the bidding process from the attempts to lure Tesla may have played to Tulsa advantage.  Think about the Oklahoma Quality Jobs Program which is sure to benefit Canoo .  

Now if Oklahoma can slowly phase out the State's personal income tax, it won't put Oklahoma on an even playing field; however it will be a feather in Oklahoma's cap.  You have to remember that our electric grid in Oklahoma is tied to grids throughout.  Texas is beginning to experience problems with its grid.

The last major car plant in Oklahoma was GM in Oklahoma County.  Oklahoma City was able to get an agreement with the county that the school districts wouldn't apply for school tax incentives.  Someone in Mid Del District got the big head; demanded the school districts get their due.  When plant closures hit GM, looks like some higher up in GM gave the OKC plant the ax.


The Oklahoma City GM Plant was a modern plant (now apart of Tinker AFB) with good production as they began manufacturing I believe were A frames and some early SUVs.   All that became history.  Anyway, it strengthened Tinker AFB once the county and city were able to acquire the plant.

Anyway, best of luck with Canoo.  Don't know much about their track record--hope this comes to fruition as they work cooperatively with the community and the Tulsa metro.

Quote from: Laramie on June 20, 2021, 11:45:20 AM
Now if Oklahoma can slowly phase out the State's personal income tax, it won't put Oklahoma on an even playing field; however it will be a feather in Oklahoma's cap.

What taxes would you add or increase to make up for the loss of the income tax?

Quote from: Red Arrow on June 20, 2021, 12:27:43 PM
What taxes would you add or increase to make up for the loss of the income tax?

Exactly. It has to be made up somewhere, yet everyone seems to ignore that. Because TEXAS DOES IT! That's good enough right haha?

Quote from: Laramie on June 20, 2021, 11:45:20 AM

Now if Oklahoma can slowly phase out the State's personal income tax, it won't put Oklahoma on an even playing field; however it will be a feather in Oklahoma's cap.  

Texas also has some of the most outrageous property taxes in the country. Anyone who makes less than $300,000 in Texas has a higher tax burden there than they do in Oklahoma. Your property taxes in Texas are as much or more than an average mortgage payment every month. For low, middle, and even upper middle income people in Texas, your effective tax rate can be close to 30% (not counting your federal tax rate either)... the ONLY people that tax structure actually benefits is incredibly wealthy people who have a disproportionate income to housing cost ratio.

Quote from: LandArchPoke on June 20, 2021, 01:43:40 PM
Exactly. It has to be made up somewhere, yet everyone seems to ignore that. Because TEXAS DOES IT! That's good enough right haha?

Texas also has some of the most outrageous property taxes in the country. Anyone who makes less than $300,000 in Texas has a higher tax burden there than they do in Oklahoma. Your property taxes in Texas are as much or more than an average mortgage payment every month. For low, middle, and even upper middle income people in Texas, your effective tax rate can be close to 30%... the ONLY people that tax structure actually benefits is incredibly wealthy people who have a disproportionate income to housing cost ratio.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=beatles+taxman&view=detail&mid=5ACF02BDEDB508E1C1C05ACF02BDEDB508E1C1C0&FORM=VIRE0&ru=%2fsearch%3fq%3dbeatles%2btaxman%26qs%3dEP%26pq%3dbeatles%2btax%26sc%3d8-11%26cvid%3dC1799E5C4D3B4E47AC0A4F3F16BED38B%26FORM%3dQBLH%26sp%3d1

Quote from: TheArtist on June 17, 2021, 04:45:48 PM
Still a very speculative company, but really hope this works out.  Speaking of electric trucks, my old truck is hanging in there but want a new one and would like to go electric.  Would like a Tesla but am now looking at the new Ford Maverick Hybrid.  Small and inexpensive, which is great for city parking, but will still get the job done work wise, and has some nice features. The Canoo Truck looks nice and also has some fun extra features, but can't hold out that long to get something. Air just went out in the old truck, got it working again but the poor old thing aint gonna last long lol.

Will be needing a new car soon as well which is what we may hold out for in getting an all electric vehicle. They need to get these electric vehicles online asap!

The all-electric F-150, while not small, is tempting. Being able to power your house for 10 days with it is a big plus with PSO's annual ohnoeswehadsastormandwemightgetpowerbackoninaweek festival.

Quote from: LandArchPoke on June 20, 2021, 01:43:40 PM
Exactly. It has to be made up somewhere, yet everyone seems to ignore that. Because TEXAS DOES IT! That's good enough right haha?

Texas also has some of the most outrageous property taxes in the country. Anyone who makes less than $300,000 in Texas has a higher tax burden there than they do in Oklahoma. Your property taxes in Texas are as much or more than an average mortgage payment every month. For low, middle, and even upper middle income people in Texas, your effective tax rate can be close to 30% (not counting your federal tax rate either)... the ONLY people that tax structure actually benefits is incredibly wealthy people who have a disproportionate income to housing cost ratio.

It is cute when our Texas friends brag about no income tax but then have so much more in property taxes, vehicle taxes, and on and on and on. Also they were awfully quiet about how crazy their electric bill was during that cold snap - wonder why.

Back to the Canoo topic -  I don't think they're vaporware but I don't see any future where they're going to survive for very long. They absolutely don't need a car factory and I think having one will put them under posthaste. Seems like they're trying to jump from baby steps to an outright run which is a surefire recipe for disaster. If they have a contract to build that jellybean minivan at VDL Nedcar, then they should first see the market reaction to their product before going all out. Perfect the recipe and if folks dig it then expand. Besides, I can't imagine running your own factory can be any cheaper than having these cars built at someone else's factory and then shipping them over. Do they honestly think they have anything that anyone is going to want to buy 150000 of a year? That's more cars than VDL Nedcar makes a year and they build or have built cars for just about everyone. I wish them all the best and I hope they are magically successful but right now it just feels like they're punch drunk with investor money which they think is going to keep coming in so lets not plan very long term. Honestly - once the big established car manufacturers really start kicking out electric vehicles in the next few years it's going to be another dot-com bubble with all these little independents.

Hoping for the best with Canoo but it's still an unproven start-up.  If not Canoo though there will likely be others and the 412 (future Interstate) corridor is well-positioned for them either at the Tesla site in East Tulsa, Port of Inola and/or Mid-America.

Quote from: SXSW on June 29, 2021, 12:31:25 AM
Hoping for the best with Canoo but it's still an unproven start-up.  If not Canoo though there will likely be others and the 412 (future Interstate) corridor is well-positioned for them either at the Tesla site in East Tulsa, Port of Inola and/or Mid-America.

I could be wrong, but what little research I did the day this was announced showed a regulatory inquiry into the management of Canoo as the founders and initial c-suite resigned abruptly over course of a year or two.  Wishing for the best, not surprised if it doesn't happen.  Hopefully, the state & other local stakeholders are being smart with the inducement money.    

Still some hurdles ahead for this company but this is positive news

https://techcrunch.com/2021/08/16/ev-startup-canoo-is-gearing-up-for-production-in-oklahoma-factory/ (https://techcrunch.com/2021/08/16/ev-startup-canoo-is-gearing-up-for-production-in-oklahoma-factory/)

Anyone heard of Francis Energy?  It's a Tulsa-based EV charging start up that seems to be on a hiring growth spurt.

https://francis.energy/ (https://francis.energy/)

Electric vehicle maker Canoo to add 375 Tulsa jobs, locate technology hub, software development centers

https://tulsaworld.com/business/local/electric-vehicle-maker-canoo-to-add-375-tulsa-jobs-locate-technology-hub-software-development-centers/article_ec708908-4641-11ec-80ac-9f4412bb7314.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1

The article also said they have plans to move their HQ to Bentonville, which is interesting. Obviously I would much rather that come to Oklahoma, but this seems like a positive for the plant and these new Tulsa jobs to become a reality.

Quote from: smitteebc on November 16, 2021, 09:24:37 AM
The article also said they have plans to move their HQ to Bentonville, which is interesting. Obviously I would much rather that come to Oklahoma, but this seems like a positive for the plant and these new Tulsa jobs to become a reality.

My best guess to this move is Walmart is going to be ordering a bunch of their vans for delivery maybe or something like that... maybe even JBHunt?

Walmart has a requirement if you're a vendor you have to have a presence in NWA. That's what's really accelerated NWA growth the last 20 years really. So they open a small HQ office in NWA to kiss up to Walmart and the vast majority of jobs are in Oklahoma. Just my best guess, I don't really have any info to back that up but it seems to make sense.

Quote from: LandArchPoke on November 16, 2021, 09:56:12 AM
My best guess to this move is Walmart is going to be ordering a bunch of their vans for delivery maybe or something like that... maybe even JBHunt?

Walmart has a requirement if you're a vendor you have to have a presence in NWA. That's what's really accelerated NWA growth the last 20 years really. So they open a small HQ office in NWA to kiss up to Walmart and the vast majority of jobs are in Oklahoma. Just my best guess, I don't really have any info to back that up but it seems to make sense.

There appeared to be a rendering in the press release about the Tulsa R&D center.  Any thoughts on whether this goes downtown?  375 new tech jobs would be a nice shot in the arm

Quote from: SXSW on November 16, 2021, 05:28:37 PM
There appeared to be a rendering in the press release about the Tulsa R&D center.  Any thoughts on whether this goes downtown?  375 new tech jobs would be a nice shot in the arm

That picture was from the original announcement for the Pryor plant. The rendering was for that I believe.

Quote from: LandArchPoke on November 16, 2021, 09:56:12 AM
My best guess to this move is Walmart is going to be ordering a bunch of their vans for delivery maybe or something like that... maybe even JBHunt?

Walmart has a requirement if you're a vendor you have to have a presence in NWA. That's what's really accelerated NWA growth the last 20 years really. So they open a small HQ office in NWA to kiss up to Walmart and the vast majority of jobs are in Oklahoma. Just my best guess, I don't really have any info to back that up but it seems to make sense.

Didn't say how many, but Walmart has ordered some Tesla Semis.


https://www.businessinsider.com/companies-that-ordered-tesla-semi-2017-12?op=1

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on November 17, 2021, 10:00:31 PM

Didn't say how many, but Walmart has ordered some Tesla Semis.


https://www.businessinsider.com/companies-that-ordered-tesla-semi-2017-12?op=1

It would make sense for Canoo to look into Semi's given their other vehicles. My bet is Walmart is looking into an Amazon type structure where they'll have their own delivery services in major markets as well and thus would need lots of cargo vans. Outside of Rivian that's not really another EV company that has offerings like Canoo in the cargo van category. I'd think FedEx and UPS, etc. would be prime targets for Canoo. Even if Walmart isn't ordering vehicles from them yet I'd bet they are becoming an investor at least if they are picking up and moving the HQ from California to move to NWA. 

Quote from: SXSW on November 16, 2021, 05:28:37 PM
There appeared to be a rendering in the press release about the Tulsa R&D center.  Any thoughts on whether this goes downtown?  375 new tech jobs would be a nice shot in the arm

I've heard there's this snazzy new building downtown on Detroit that could totally use some tenants...

https://tulsaworld.com/business/local/mayes-county-examines-proposed-tif-for-midamerica-industrial-park/article_1178e8ba-83ac-11ec-b70f-1fdf01298260.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1 (https://tulsaworld.com/business/local/mayes-county-examines-proposed-tif-for-midamerica-industrial-park/article_1178e8ba-83ac-11ec-b70f-1fdf01298260.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1)

Anyone have any info on companies looking at Mid America? In the article they said:

"Stewart projects that private investment in the TIF, if approved, would be $5 billion to $6 billion over the first five years of the TIF, which is capped by state statute at 25 years."

The TIF will only cover undeveloped land currently - so sounds like they have some massive potential projects in the pipeline. Maybe additional data centers? $5-6 Billion is a lot, the Canoo factory is only estimated at around $400 million.

Quote from: LandArchPoke on February 07, 2022, 03:03:41 PM
https://tulsaworld.com/business/local/mayes-county-examines-proposed-tif-for-midamerica-industrial-park/article_1178e8ba-83ac-11ec-b70f-1fdf01298260.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1 (https://tulsaworld.com/business/local/mayes-county-examines-proposed-tif-for-midamerica-industrial-park/article_1178e8ba-83ac-11ec-b70f-1fdf01298260.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1)

Anyone have any info on companies looking at Mid America? In the article they said:

"Stewart projects that private investment in the TIF, if approved, would be $5 billion to $6 billion over the first five years of the TIF, which is capped by state statute at 25 years."

The TIF will only cover undeveloped land currently - so sounds like they have some massive potential projects in the pipeline. Maybe additional data centers? $5-6 Billion is a lot, the Canoo factory is only estimated at around $400 million.

Semiconductor fabs in Texas and Ohio are closer to $20B.  Could be a data center or possibly something related to Canoo/EV's like batteries.

Quote from: LandArchPoke on November 18, 2021, 12:08:10 PM
It would make sense for Canoo to look into Semi's given their other vehicles. My bet is Walmart is looking into an Amazon type structure where they'll have their own delivery services in major markets as well and thus would need lots of cargo vans. Outside of Rivian that's not really another EV company that has offerings like Canoo in the cargo van category. I'd think FedEx and UPS, etc. would be prime targets for Canoo. Even if Walmart isn't ordering vehicles from them yet I'd bet they are becoming an investor at least if they are picking up and moving the HQ from California to move to NWA.  

I'm worried by the time Canoo manages to build something it's not going to matter. Ford has started production of it's E-Transit Electric Van and deliveries will probably start next month. With Ford already owning 40% of the cargo van market, this will only expand that which leaves even less pie for Canoo to get a slice of. Rivian has their cargo vans for Amazon already out - the small ones are being delivered with the two larger sizes in the works, GM's new BrightDrop division is already delivering it's EV600 to FedEx and WalMart and I read will be taking orders in general soon, and the Mercedes eSprinter is coming out next year in the US but is already out in Europe (plus an electric version of their Metris). Plus - the Dodge ProMaster is available in Europe as an electric currently as is the Nissan NV200 and since both of those are already sold here as ICE versions the electric ones could appear at any time.

Quote from: tulsabug on February 07, 2022, 05:40:12 PM
I'm worried by the time Canoo manages to build something it's not going to matter. Ford has started production of it's E-Transit Electric Van and deliveries will probably start next month. With Ford already owning 40% of the cargo van market, this will only expand that which leaves even less pie for Canoo to get a slice of. Rivian has their cargo vans for Amazon already out - the small ones are being delivered with the two larger sizes in the works, GM's new BrightDrop division is already delivering it's EV600 to FedEx and WalMart and I read will be taking orders in general soon, and the Mercedes eSprinter is coming out next year in the US but is already out in Europe (plus an electric version of their Metris). Plus - the Dodge ProMaster is available in Europe as an electric currently as is the Nissan NV200 and since both of those are already sold here as ICE versions the electric ones could appear at any time.

IMO, a lot depends on the strength of Canoo's connection to Wal-Mart. 

I will say... Canoo is really pushing to hire and move talent to Tulsa. We'll see if they're successful as a company, but they're making decent hiring investments in Tulsa.

Quote from: ComeOnBenjals on February 08, 2022, 11:25:57 AM
I will say... Canoo is really pushing to hire and move talent to Tulsa. We'll see if they're successful as a company, but they're making decent hiring investments in Tulsa.

Indeed. Tulsa is prime to be the Silicone Prairie.

Incidentally here's a new article on CNN specifically talking about how the EV Van wars are heating up - https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/08/business/electric-vans-war/index.html

Quote from: tulsabug on February 08, 2022, 02:17:26 PM
Indeed. Tulsa is prime to be the Silicone Prairie.

Incidentally here's a new article on CNN specifically talking about how the EV Van wars are heating up - https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/08/business/electric-vans-war/index.html

I did find it interesting that Walmart is noted in that article as a buyer from GM. My guess is Walmart will eventually move to a shipping model similar to Amazon that is less dependent on UPS/FedEx and will need thousands of vans/trucks. They will need more than one supplier as well similar to Amazon. Amazon is not only buying EVs from Rivian.

Canoo's HQ move to NWA seems like a natural fit to be a large supplier of vehicles to Walmart and I doubt Walmart will ever want to co-invest in any company Amazon is investing in, and Canoo is one of the few that has a product even remotely close to being able to go into production that Amazon, FedEx, or UPS isn't already heavily involved/invested.

Quote from: LandArchPoke on February 07, 2022, 03:03:41 PM
https://tulsaworld.com/business/local/mayes-county-examines-proposed-tif-for-midamerica-industrial-park/article_1178e8ba-83ac-11ec-b70f-1fdf01298260.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1 (https://tulsaworld.com/business/local/mayes-county-examines-proposed-tif-for-midamerica-industrial-park/article_1178e8ba-83ac-11ec-b70f-1fdf01298260.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1)

Anyone have any info on companies looking at Mid America? In the article they said:

"Stewart projects that private investment in the TIF, if approved, would be $5 billion to $6 billion over the first five years of the TIF, which is capped by state statute at 25 years."

The TIF will only cover undeveloped land currently - so sounds like they have some massive potential projects in the pipeline. Maybe additional data centers? $5-6 Billion is a lot, the Canoo factory is only estimated at around $400 million.

Not sure how it relates to the TIF, but word on the street is Google is almost out of room at their current MAIP site and has already started preparation for a second MAIP site. They already own the land. A whole new site could easily amount to billions in development.

Quote from: LandArchPoke on February 08, 2022, 02:34:25 PM
I did find it interesting that Walmart is noted in that article as a buyer from GM. My guess is Walmart will eventually move to a shipping model similar to Amazon that is less dependent on UPS/FedEx and will need thousands of vans/trucks. They will need more than one supplier as well similar to Amazon. Amazon is not only buying EVs from Rivian.

Walmart is already a huge truck company now.  And way ahead of some of the bottom feeders like US Express and Covenant, who have several thousand tractors...

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on February 08, 2022, 05:14:04 PM

Walmart is already a huge truck company now.  And way ahead of some of the bottom feeders like US Express and Covenant, who have several thousand tractors...

Semi's yes, but not on the delivery van side. If Walmart wants to challenge Amazon delivery wise they are going to need several thousand smaller delivery vans. Same with Amazon, there won't be one single company who can meet that demand.

Frankly, Walmart if it gets its game together could probably beat Amazon at its own game given its real estate footprint. They could utilize every store they have as a distribution center for same day delivery. Their advantage window is closing fast though given Amazon's pace of distribution center construction everywhere - and Walmart doesn't seem to be reacting very fast to counter Amazon.

Latest rumor is that Panasonic is looking at Mid-America for a new battery plant.

Quote from: SXSW on February 11, 2022, 09:39:36 PM
Latest rumor is that Panasonic is looking at Mid-America for a new battery plant.

They will probably want property off the end of the runway of the airport.  Then they will want the airport shut down for "safety" reasons.  :(

MidAmerica Industrial Park reportedly in the running for huge electric vehicle battery plant

https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/midamerica-industrial-park-reportedly-in-the-running-for-huge-electric-vehicle-battery-plant/article_1ad6223a-8ba7-11ec-be98-038d51a330de.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1

Would be fantastic to land this... know the chamber is really working hard on this. Could start to build a decent EV space if we can get this going.

Quote from: ComeOnBenjals on February 12, 2022, 10:17:03 AM
MidAmerica Industrial Park reportedly in the running for huge electric vehicle battery plant

https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/midamerica-industrial-park-reportedly-in-the-running-for-huge-electric-vehicle-battery-plant/article_1ad6223a-8ba7-11ec-be98-038d51a330de.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1

Would be fantastic to land this... know the chamber is really working hard on this. Could start to build a decent EV space if we can get this going.

It would be an awesome thing to get. Maybe we can lure it in by replacing the Golden Driller's head with a giant battery! No wait. Nevermind.

Quote from: ComeOnBenjals on February 12, 2022, 10:17:03 AM
MidAmerica Industrial Park reportedly in the running for huge electric vehicle battery plant

https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/midamerica-industrial-park-reportedly-in-the-running-for-huge-electric-vehicle-battery-plant/article_1ad6223a-8ba7-11ec-be98-038d51a330de.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1

Would be fantastic to land this... know the chamber is really working hard on this. Could start to build a decent EV space if we can get this going.

Have we taken into consideration, and are we willing to accept, the risks involved with the hazardous waste and overall industrial risks of manufacturing Lithium ion, lithium-iron-phosphate or nickel-cobalt-aluminum etc. batteries?

And how close would we want such a facility to critical infrastructure like an airport?

The proposal sounds great for our economy -- if we have thought it out, but have we?

Well, the location is 30 miles from TIA, so we will probably be fine.

Quote from: swake on February 12, 2022, 01:34:14 PM
Well, the location is 30 miles from TIA, so we will probably be fine.

There is a golf course nearby.  Maybe that will get someone's attention.

Quote from: patric on February 12, 2022, 01:29:32 PM

Have we taken into consideration, and are we willing to accept, the risks involved with the hazardous waste and overall industrial risks of manufacturing Lithium ion, lithium-iron-phosphate or nickel-cobalt-aluminum etc. batteries?

And how close would we want such a facility to critical infrastructure like an airport?

The proposal sounds great for our economy -- if we have thought it out, but have we?

As opposed to the various chemical production company, a paper processing company, a gypsum processing company and a plastics company with all of their chemical byproducts and chemical production processes? There has been a lot of chemical waste production there going back 50 years or so.

Anhydrous ammonia has been one of the products at the Pryor Chemical plant there since the 70's.

Lol, OK hasn't been worried about hazardous waste ever. We decimated the northeast corner of the state right into a superfund site and destroyed at least two towns in the process. There is heavy industry all over doing pretty much whatever they want. You should see the waste fires in Sapulpa that some of the companies in the industrial park burn at night to get rid of whatever they need to get rid of.

This facility would be amazing. It would be something more realistic than Canoo with about the same impact. Unfortunately it sounds like Kansas has a leg up with incentives, but our location is more logistically sound, IMO. Then again, our roads suck.

Quote from: shavethewhales on February 14, 2022, 09:17:17 AM
Lol, OK hasn't been worried about hazardous waste ever. We decimated the northeast corner of the state right into a superfund site and destroyed at least two towns in the process. There is heavy industry all over doing pretty much whatever they want. You should see the waste fires in Sapulpa that some of the companies in the industrial park burn at night to get rid of whatever they need to get rid of.

This facility would be amazing. It would be something more realistic than Canoo with about the same impact. Unfortunately it sounds like Kansas has a leg up with incentives, but our location is more logistically sound, IMO. Then again, our roads suck.

I bet Oklahoma will match anything and everything Kansas is, we just don't have to publicly vote on incentives the way it's set up here. They are already voting on the TIF, which is the only thing that has to be voted on because it requires school approvals - which I don't think the town in Kansas they are looking at has even gotten to that point. This is as big dollar wise or at least close to what Tesla was proposing to build and we offered them in excess of $1 billion in incentives from the state.

Mid-America has something that very very few places in the US can offer, that as soon as they close on the land they can start construction pretty much the next day. When they say 'shovel ready' they mean it, there are no city reviews, building plan approvals, etc. I don't believe they even require you to pull permits there (someone could correct me if I'm wrong there). From my understanding is that the Mid-America folks pretty much operate as its own city government. From everything I've been told by reps from there is that it's a rare set up that can save companies months/years in planning to get a facility under construction fast. They don't have to deal with any NIMBYs or local politics when trying to get the site built.

That might be enough to win it from Kansas if the incentives are close to the same.  

Quote from: LandArchPoke on February 10, 2022, 11:22:04 PM
Semi's yes, but not on the delivery van side. If Walmart wants to challenge Amazon delivery wise they are going to need several thousand smaller delivery vans. Same with Amazon, there won't be one single company who can meet that demand.

Frankly, Walmart if it gets its game together could probably beat Amazon at its own game given its real estate footprint. They could utilize every store they have as a distribution center for same day delivery. Their advantage window is closing fast though given Amazon's pace of distribution center construction everywhere - and Walmart doesn't seem to be reacting very fast to counter Amazon.

Doesn't appear so far that Walmart wants to go that direction.   The certainly could if they wanted, though.   I would rather pick up at store anyway than have them deliver.

In somewhat related electric vehicles in Oklahoma news - the Nature Conservancy just added a Rivian truck to the Tallgrass Prairie Reserve near Pawhuska - https://stories.rivian.com/tnc-tallgrass

(https://exposure.accelerator.net/production/photos/aftiqrnlt1nmfvrl0jin1es0702qwiam2iy8/original.jpg;resize(1200,675,crop).jpeg)

I'll also add that Panasonic is contracted to make batteries for Tesla and Toyota. Having Tesla in Austin and Toyota USA HQ is in Plano, Tulsa area is a lot closer. I'd assume the Tesla campaign probably helped get us into the final two locations.

I believe there's a direct Union Pacific freight rail line from Pryor that goes all the way to Austin. It's also an easy days drive down 69/75 to 35 to get to Austin. It's more than a days drive coming from KC. Logistically speaking the Pryor location is far better to the customers this plant would be serving.

The site in KC they are scouting is in De Soto - between outer burbs of KC and Lawrence. In a development called Sunflower that was a former ammunitions plant. This would be one of the first employers to go in there so its far less developed than Mid America.

Inola is probably going to be the size of Owasso here in a few years if we land this and Canoo gets off the ground. It's kind of half-way between Mid America and Tulsa so seems like a logical spot to see more residential development. Home prices in Pryor are already pretty high, they are going to have to solve the housing shortage problem in that area. Seems like a lot of the residential developers have been sleeping on that area.

Quote from: LandArchPoke on February 15, 2022, 07:21:19 PM
I believe there's a direct Union Pacific freight rail line from Pryor that goes all the way to Austin.

UP goes to Ft Worth from Pryor.  Ft Worth to Austin shows UP lines but I don't know if it's a direct route.

Texas RR Map: https://ftp.dot.state.tx.us/pub/txdot-info/tpp/maps/2016-railroad.pdf

Oklahoma RR Map:  https://oklahoma.gov/content/dam/ok/en/odot/documents/Rail%20Map%202018-2020.pdf

UP may have preferred directions on their routes too.

Quote from: LandArchPoke on February 15, 2022, 07:21:19 PM
I'll also add that Panasonic is contracted to make batteries for Tesla and Toyota. Having Tesla in Austin and Toyota USA HQ is in Plano, Tulsa area is a lot closer. I'd assume the Tesla campaign probably helped get us into the final two locations.

I believe there's a direct Union Pacific freight rail line from Pryor that goes all the way to Austin. It's also an easy days drive down 69/75 to 35 to get to Austin. It's more than a days drive coming from KC. Logistically speaking the Pryor location is far better to the customers this plant would be serving.

The site in KC they are scouting is in De Soto - between outer burbs of KC and Lawrence. In a development called Sunflower that was a former ammunitions plant. This would be one of the first employers to go in there so its far less developed than Mid America.

Inola is probably going to be the size of Owasso here in a few years if we land this and Canoo gets off the ground. It's kind of half-way between Mid America and Tulsa so seems like a logical spot to see more residential development. Home prices in Pryor are already pretty high, they are going to have to solve the housing shortage problem in that area. Seems like a lot of the residential developers have been sleeping on that area.

There is a large Mennonite presence in the area that owns a lot more of the land than might be obvious to begin.   Just like in Broken Arrow with their churches, there is likely to be big input from them.

Quote from: LandArchPoke on February 15, 2022, 07:21:19 PM
Inola is probably going to be the size of Owasso here in a few years if we land this and Canoo gets off the ground. It's kind of half-way between Mid America and Tulsa so seems like a logical spot to see more residential development. Home prices in Pryor are already pretty high, they are going to have to solve the housing shortage problem in that area. Seems like a lot of the residential developers have been sleeping on that area.

Inola also has its own port on the Verdigris River and adjacent industrial park.  They could land a massive new factory there that would be closer to Tulsa/Broken Arrow.

(https://hot-town-images.s3.us-east-1.amazonaws.com/kotv/production/2019/October/10/pso-announces-1st-new-public-port-in-oklahoma-in-50-years.1570741345000-0.jpeg)

Quote from: shavethewhales on February 14, 2022, 09:17:17 AM
Lol, OK hasn't been worried about hazardous waste ever. We decimated the northeast corner of the state right into a superfund site and destroyed at least two towns in the process. There is heavy industry all over doing pretty much whatever they want. You should see the waste fires in Sapulpa that some of the companies in the industrial park burn at night to get rid of whatever they need to get rid of.

This facility would be amazing. It would be something more realistic than Canoo with about the same impact. Unfortunately it sounds like Kansas has a leg up with incentives, but our location is more logistically sound, IMO. Then again, our roads suck.

I grew up in Tulsa, born in 1963, so yes I do remember all of the heavy industry that lined Dawson Road, Charles Page Blvd, north side of downtown, and the area out near what was the turnpike gate. And yes I know all about the Picher/Cardin superfund site. I remember when Jimmy Inhofe want to use the chat from the tailing piles (mountains) to pave Oklahoma highways. I have ridden ATV's on those piles in the mid 70's and had friends that worked there before we knew how bad it was.

Quote from: SXSW on February 16, 2022, 02:38:04 PM
Inola also has its own port on the Verdigris River and adjacent industrial park.  They could land a massive new factory there that would be closer to Tulsa/Broken Arrow.

I had forgot about this too - to me this is probably the most under estimated corridor in the MSA right now for future growth. If I was a land speculator the area east of the Creek Turnpike to Inola to Chouteau is prime to just explode population wise in the next 10 years. Lake Hudson is a really pretty area too, I could see it benefiting a lot with more residential growth around the lake.

The site that Tesla was looking at right there would make sense as a 'Tulsa Hills' type development, it would capture Claremore, Catoosa, Far north BA, and anything that develops to the east. You already have a decent amount of retail concentration around the Hard Rock too.

Frankly that might be really beneficial long term for the Tulsa area to develop more toward NWA and really build up the 412 corridor between the two cities. It would be better to align our MSA more with NWA than it is to OKC.

Quote from: LandArchPoke on February 17, 2022, 12:48:12 PM
I had forgot about this too - to me this is probably the most under estimated corridor in the MSA right now for future growth. If I was a land speculator the area east of the Creek Turnpike to Inola to Chouteau is prime to just explode population wise in the next 10 years. Lake Hudson is a really pretty area too, I could see it benefiting a lot with more residential growth around the lake.

The site that Tesla was looking at right there would make sense as a 'Tulsa Hills' type development, it would capture Claremore, Catoosa, Far north BA, and anything that develops to the east. You already have a decent amount of retail concentration around the Hard Rock too.

Frankly that might be really beneficial long term for the Tulsa area to develop more toward NWA and really build up the 412 corridor between the two cities. It would be better to align our MSA more with NWA than it is to OKC.

412 is a future interstate corridor as well. Will it be I-50?

Quote from: LandArchPoke on February 17, 2022, 12:48:12 PM
The site that Tesla was looking at right there would make sense as a 'Tulsa Hills' type development, it would capture Claremore, Catoosa, Far north BA, and anything that develops to the east. You already have a decent amount of retail concentration around the Hard Rock too.

They are marketing that site known as the Robson Industrial Park for large-scale manufacturing.  This is from the Advanced Mobility Cluster Project submittal which was green-lighted to the next round and could mean $70M in federal seed funds with additional matching funds from local governments and organizations.

QuoteRobson Industrial Park
The site represents 2,000 acres of high-visibility, privately-owned greenfield property at the
intersection of I-44 and US-412/future I-42, on Tulsa's eastern edge; the acreage is a part of a larger
18,000 acre landholding by the Robson family and associated trust entities. The property is ideally
located outside of major residential areas, with proximity to port infrastructure and multi modal
transportation facilities. The property has seen steady interest from major industrial players and
was shortlisted by Tesla and Ford for the expansion of their electric vehicle projects. The
development of the proposed wastewater infrastructure at the site will contribute to the "pad
readiness" necessary to successfully attract Advanced Mobility players.

Tulsa Port of Inola
The site represents 2,500-acres of master-planned industrial space and has undergone a deep
technical and engineering investigation in anticipation of full development. A two million square
foot manufacturing and distribution facility is currently located at the site and 1,100 acres of the
property is "site-certified" for shovel-ready development. The Tulsa Port of Inola site is central to
the creation of stronger urban/rural linkages across the Advanced Mobility value chain.
Additionally, the site offers unique logistics infrastructure in the form of an on-site barge slip and
existing rail service. The development of the proposed wastewater infrastructure at the site will
provide the "pad readiness" necessary to successfully attract Advanced Mobility players.

Quote from: swake on February 17, 2022, 01:28:43 PM
412 is a future interstate corridor as well. Will it be I-50?

It will be I-42

Quote from: SXSW on February 17, 2022, 02:50:43 PM
It will be I-42

I-42 is a proposed corridor in North Carolina afaik

Just had a thought a while ago....Texas is supposed to be "all that and a bag of chips..." in the economy, technology, and so much 'good stuff'.   So why is it with only about 25% smaller population - could be considered close to on par with California - that California has 400% more patents than Texas??

Are they just comparing themselves to their closest intellectual equivalents and kindred spirits, like Mississippi?  Or Alabama? 



Lol...just had to go there...!

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on February 18, 2022, 09:13:05 PM
Just had a thought a while ago....Texas is supposed to be "all that and a bag of chips..." in the economy, technology, and so much 'good stuff'.   So why is it with only about 25% smaller population - could be considered close to on par with California - that California has 400% more patents than Texas??

Are they just comparing themselves to their closest intellectual equivalents and kindred spirits, like Mississippi?  Or Alabama? 



Lol...just had to go there...!

The center of world wide tech is the Bay Area.

Quote from: tulsabug on February 17, 2022, 05:42:11 PM
I-42 is a proposed corridor in North Carolina afaik

You're right.  That is what was in the AMC submittal.  I-50 is as good a guess as any

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on February 18, 2022, 09:13:05 PM
Just had a thought a while ago....Texas is supposed to be "all that and a bag of chips..." in the economy, technology, and so much 'good stuff'.   So why is it with only about 25% smaller population - could be considered close to on par with California - that California has 400% more patents than Texas??

I turned down a transfer to the Bay Area in the late 80s due to the cost of living and no significant increase in salary.

https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/govt-and-politics/state-looking-to-lure-huge-company-to-eastern-oklahoma-governor-says/article_35f330de-9418-11ec-a7ff-df324fdf3242.html#tracking-source=home-top-story (https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/govt-and-politics/state-looking-to-lure-huge-company-to-eastern-oklahoma-governor-says/article_35f330de-9418-11ec-a7ff-df324fdf3242.html#tracking-source=home-top-story)

This article also says that Canoo has an agreement with Panasonic to supply its batteries as well. That is a huge upside for us landing the battery plant instead of Kansas. They'd have a client right in the same park plus Tesla's plant being closer to Mid America than Kansas. Not sure where Toyota is planning to build any of their electric cars but like I said before their USA HQ is in Plano.

The Canoo plant has officially started moving dirt too. Even if they collapse in a year or two if they get the factory built then that is an upside to me, because another EV player is likely to buy the site.

QuoteNow the unnamed company will weigh the state's massive incentive package, which could cost taxpayers some $1.3 billion. Kansas is competing against its neighbor to the south, as public officials there seek to lure the project to the Tulsa area. A small Oklahoma newspaper identified Panasonic as the likely company behind top-secret negotiations there...

...Some 216 miles to the south, officials hope to see the plant rise up at the MidAmerica Industrial Park in Pryor, Oklahoma, about 45 miles outside of Tulsa. That park is already home to dozens of industries and local officials have been considering new tax breaks for a 700-acre portion of land.

Link Kansas City Star: https://www.kansascity.com/news/politics-government/article258307028.html (https://www.kansascity.com/news/politics-government/article258307028.html)

This will be big if Oklahoma can secure this company.

IF Canoo builds as planned and the Panasonic factory goes in that would be huge for building up the EV industry cluster in this area.  It definitely would pull the Tulsa metro more to the east along 412/future interstate. 

Quote from: SXSW on February 23, 2022, 11:33:31 AM
IF Canoo builds as planned and the Panasonic factory goes in that would be huge for building up the EV industry cluster in this area.  It definitely would pull the Tulsa metro more to the east along 412/future interstate. 

Plus Google's continued expansions, plus other major employers moving in... Tulsa is going to morph into a supercluster with NWA over time. I'm not a huge fan of this because I don't like sprawl, but it's a good location for it I guess since we are in the middle of the country yet have the inland port and theoretically good shipping routes. We just need a better route to Dallas and then we are set as a destination for these types of things.

Quote from: LandArchPoke on February 22, 2022, 05:11:11 PM
https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/govt-and-politics/state-looking-to-lure-huge-company-to-eastern-oklahoma-governor-says/article_35f330de-9418-11ec-a7ff-df324fdf3242.html#tracking-source=home-top-story (https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/govt-and-politics/state-looking-to-lure-huge-company-to-eastern-oklahoma-governor-says/article_35f330de-9418-11ec-a7ff-df324fdf3242.html#tracking-source=home-top-story)

This article also says that Canoo has an agreement with Panasonic to supply its batteries as well. That is a huge upside for us landing the battery plant instead of Kansas. They'd have a client right in the same park plus Tesla's plant being closer to Mid America than Kansas. Not sure where Toyota is planning to build any of their electric cars but like I said before their USA HQ is in Plano.

The Canoo plant has officially started moving dirt too. Even if they collapse in a year or two if they get the factory built then that is an upside to me, because another EV player is likely to buy the site.

That is one good thing about the EV industry right now - even though most if not all of them are going to go bankrupt at least they're pouring their money into local economies while they have it. Another potential bonus - bringing blue state employees into red states!

Quote from: tulsabug on February 23, 2022, 01:24:07 PM
Another potential bonus - bringing blue state employees into red states!

That might be a tough sell.

Quote from: Red Arrow on February 18, 2022, 11:51:47 PM
I turned down a transfer to the Bay Area in the late 80s due to the cost of living and no significant increase in salary.

I had a great job offer there long, long ago with different company.  Money MORE than made up the difference.  Just couldn't see leaving all this...tornadoes, earthquakes, drought, flood, etc.   Where else can one get some much concentrated self-abuse in one conveniently located, concentrated package of suffering...?

Plus, would have put the kids another 2,000 mi away, and it is hard enough to see some of them now.

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on February 25, 2022, 12:56:28 PM
I had a great job offer there long, long ago with different company.  Money MORE than made up the difference.  Just couldn't see leaving all this...tornadoes, earthquakes, drought, flood, etc.   Where else can one get some much concentrated self-abuse in one conveniently located, concentrated package of suffering...?
Plus, would have put the kids another 2,000 mi away, and it is hard enough to see some of them now.

Changing companies was the way to get ahead out there.  I went for a project review around 1986.  The base was Sunnyvale. I always drive around a bit.  In this case it was Los Gatos that was nearby. Houses that would have sold in Tulsa for maybe $65K all had Mercedes, Cadillac, Lincoln etc cars in the driveways.  Turns out the houses were at least $200K.  Ouch.  "My" company only offered about $100/month.  Not worth the move.

Weather.... we don't have the worst of hurricanes (In spite of TU's flags).  At least most of the time our cold spells are relatively short.  My sister once said she was going to tie a snow shovel to the top of her car and drive south until someone asked "what's that on top of your car?"

I never had kids so that would not have been an issue for me.  Aviation contacts and hangar rents would have been a BIG problem.

Canoo put out their fourth quarter and fiscal year 2021 results today. One thing I found interesting is they claim the state of OK has agreed to purchase 1000 vehicles but didn't really say anything else further on it.

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/canoo-inc-announces-fourth-quarter-and-fiscal-year-2021-results-301492051.html

Hope the two (Pryor auto factory & battery plant) come to fruition; this will be a big boost to Tulsa area economy and an increase in City & MSA population.  Wish Tulsa the best.

Tulsa IMO has a good chance to acquire both.   Oklahoma Quality Jobs Incentive Program - Quick Action Closing Fund ($15 million): https://www.okcommerce.gov/doing-business/business-relocation-expansion/incentives/quality-jobs-incentive-program/ (https://www.okcommerce.gov/doing-business/business-relocation-expansion/incentives/quality-jobs-incentive-program/)  Canoo estimated to supply 2,000 jobs.

Go Tulsa!

https://electrek.co/2022/02/21/tesla-asks-fans-oklahoma-mississippi-to-fight-new-bills-ban-direct-sales-electric-cars/

It seems weird that we are courting people to build them while pissing them off about selling them. I don't really understand why Canoo can't lobby against this just a bit more. I get that dealers have more dollars than canoo does, but figured they would have made this a bit more of a PR move. Manufacturing jobs against car salesman jobs.

Quote from: buffalodan on March 07, 2022, 08:38:31 AM
https://electrek.co/2022/02/21/tesla-asks-fans-oklahoma-mississippi-to-fight-new-bills-ban-direct-sales-electric-cars/

It seems weird that we are courting people to build them while pissing them off about selling them. I don't really understand why Canoo can't lobby against this just a bit more. I get that dealers have more dollars than canoo does, but figured they would have made this a bit more of a PR move. Manufacturing jobs against car salesman jobs.

Definitely understand what you're saying.  Canoo figures that they need to spend their time building that plant, PR and less on acknowledging
vices.  

It's going to take years to build up the 'trust factor' in EV and building the infrastructure.   Oklahoma received $66 million (5 years) from the Biden Infrastructure bill.  How the state divides these funds (TBD), we know the bulk of funds will go to our two largest cities.

KOKH-TV 25 OKC:  https://okcfox.com/news/local/heres-what-oklahoma-should-expect-from-the-12t-infrastructure-bill (https://okcfox.com/news/local/heres-what-oklahoma-should-expect-from-the-12t-infrastructure-bill)

BTW, heard the job numbers fluctuate from a low 1,000 to a high 6,000 jobs.  This will more than likely exceed 2,000 or more jobs for the Tulsa
metro and build the Pryor community noted for the Rocklahoma festival.  

Interesting articles from the Stillwater News Press https://www.stwnewspress.com/oklahoma/oklahoma-wants-to-be-the-home-of-electric-hydrogen-fueled-vehicles/article_5b4bdbae-929c-54a7-a9ce-8b9d2a5d44ce.html (https://www.stwnewspress.com/oklahoma/oklahoma-wants-to-be-the-home-of-electric-hydrogen-fueled-vehicles/article_5b4bdbae-929c-54a7-a9ce-8b9d2a5d44ce.html)

Opening date pushed back a year for Canoo EV:

Oklahoma has bet big on the EV startup Canoo Inc., offering hundreds of millions of dollars in incentives, plus a no-bid contract for state agencies to buy up to 1,000 vehicles, but the company has pushed back the projected opening date for an Oklahoma factory to 2024...

The Frontier:  https://www.readfrontier.org/stories/oklahomas-big-bet-on-an-electric-vehicle-startup/ (https://www.readfrontier.org/stories/oklahomas-big-bet-on-an-electric-vehicle-startup/)

Breaking News:  

Lost Ogle:  Hearing rumors that Pansonic has told Stitt and Co. that Oklahoma has been chosen as the home for the company's new billion-dollar battery facility. No clue if it's true or not, but if so, you heard it heard first! If not, never mind.

https://twitter.com/thelostogle/status/1514732135613087753?s=21&t=FTdxF-z3prmVtAjRmD03OA (https://twitter.com/thelostogle/status/1514732135613087753?s=21&t=FTdxF-z3prmVtAjRmD03OA)

 Tulsa is on its way to becoming the next boom-town.

https://www.newson6.com/story/625d9a91c48e3e072000eadc/governor-stitt-to-announce-major-economic-development-opportunity (https://www.newson6.com/story/625d9a91c48e3e072000eadc/governor-stitt-to-announce-major-economic-development-opportunity)

Looks like Panasonic is being announced soon.

Stitt called the press conference but "can't name the company" lol. The press conference is basically to put the legislature on the spot to pass the economic incentives bills for investments over $1 billion. Sounds like Panasonic has said if you all pass the bills we will locate in Oklahoma, if not, we're going to Kansas. He's basically said they need to pass the bills by next Monday.

I found it really interesting that Kian Kamas (TAEO) and Mike Neal (Tulsa Chamber) are there and he pointed them out. Makes me wonder if Panasonic is going to have some offices in Tulsa too in addition to the plant in MAIP. MAIP reps were there as well.  

What're the odds the Legislature passes the bills? Don't really follow these things closely.

Quote from: ComeOnBenjals on April 18, 2022, 02:13:54 PM
What're the odds the Legislature passes the bills? Don't really follow these things closely.

I would assume it's an easy pass with the GOP supermajority, but that's just an assumption on my part. I don't follow that closely either.

Quote from: ComeOnBenjals on April 18, 2022, 02:13:54 PM
What're the odds the Legislature passes the bills? Don't really follow these things closely.

Part but not all of what Stitt wanted passed through Senate & House committee this evening and should be voted on and approved soon.

I have a feeling Panasonic got pissed the legislature is dragging their feet on this while passing a bunch of nonsense abortion bills and other things while ignoring this. Typical of Republicans, let's ignore the biggest economic development project in the history of the state then campaign on how "great" they are to the economy.

"Labeled Project Ocean, the proposal targets 588 acres inside MAIP in Pryor. If OK'd, the TIF would last a maximum of 12 years, creating up to 6,000 new direct jobs, 1,200 indirect jobs, 16,000 new housing units and a population increase of 18,000 within a 45-minute commute of the park, according to the project plan." They are estimating the TIF to be worth around $300 million.

^ Some of those projections seem low to me like the population. If they expect that to create 16,000 new housing units then that would be around 35,000 population based on average household sizes in this area. If you combine this with Canoo and what's likely to be other suppliers or other companies interested just because Panasonic felt it was a good enough location, you could easily see 60,000-75,000 new people settle in that area in the next 7-10 years.

Panasonic's North American HQ is in New Jersey, I wonder if we'd be able to entice them to relocate that office to Tulsa - wonder if that might have been why TAEO & Tulsa Chamber were there. Just hopeful thinking on that. Not even sure how big their North America HQ office is employee wise. 

Glad to hear that^. I would be livid if the Legislature was a holdup on this project.

16,000 housing units is absolutely insane. Could be the biggest shot in the Tulsa Metro's arm in 80 years. Let's get crazy and start planning some light rail out East from Tulsa Proper.

I seriously hate this corporate welfare crap, but I guess it's necessary, especially in this part of the country.

Quote from: DowntownDan on April 19, 2022, 02:02:32 PM
I seriously hate this corporate welfare crap, but I guess it's necessary, especially in this part of the country.

I'm not either, but it's a game we have to play if we want to land anything major. They aren't proposing anything different than what Texas, Kansas, etc. are all doing around us so it's either match it or be left in the dust. Lesser of two evils to me at least is match it and take the jobs and population growth because we are at an inflection point particularly with energy in the US and we don't have a lot of time to play around with trying to diversify our economy away from non-renewals energy. So this is an important step forward for the Tulsa MSA just like getting American Airlines was decades ago for building up an aerospace sector here.

Quote from: ComeOnBenjals on April 19, 2022, 11:06:21 AM
Let's get crazy and start planning some light rail out East from Tulsa Proper.

Let's at least get the ROW while the cost is merely outrageous, not yet stupid crazy.

Quote from: LandArchPoke on April 19, 2022, 10:04:50 PM
I'm not either, but it's a game we have to play if we want to land anything major. They aren't proposing anything different than what Texas, Kansas, etc. are all doing around us so it's either match it or be left in the dust. Lesser of two evils to me at least is match it and take the jobs and population growth because we are at an inflection point particularly with energy in the US and we don't have a lot of time to play around with trying to diversify our economy away from non-renewals energy. So this is an important step forward for the Tulsa MSA just like getting American Airlines was decades ago for building up an aerospace sector here.

It'd be nice if they would have passed a matching bill with similar funding and tax breaks to help small business development.


Oh who am I kidding!  :P

https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/govt-and-politics/watch-now-house-oks-up-to-698m-economic-incentive-package/article_58a78530-c000-11ec-9dbc-0f0042d50fc1.html#tracking-source=home-top-story

House OKs up to $698M economic incentive package

Really sounds like there are multiple companies in the mix here....

"The remaining $85 million would be available to an unnamed second, "separate establishment," referred to as "Player 2" in explanations of the program. Player 2 would have to invest $500 million to be eligible."


Some good quotes from legislatures: "Every other commercial on the Super Bowl was an electric vehicle commercial," he continued. "Whether you support electric vehicles, whether you oppose electric vehicles, whatever your stance is on that, it doesn't matter. That's where the industry is going. ... The electric vehicle industry is growing, and we have a chance to be at the front and center."

Also some not so good ones: "Rep. Wendi Stearman, R-Collinsville, answered promises of jobs, growth and economic diversification by saying, "I don't want Oklahoma to change, and the majority of my constituents do not want Oklahoma to change.""  ::)

Quote from: ComeOnBenjals on April 20, 2022, 09:12:09 AM
https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/govt-and-politics/watch-now-house-oks-up-to-698m-economic-incentive-package/article_58a78530-c000-11ec-9dbc-0f0042d50fc1.html#tracking-source=home-top-story

House OKs up to $698M economic incentive package

Really sounds like there are multiple companies in the mix here....

"The remaining $85 million would be available to an unnamed second, "separate establishment," referred to as "Player 2" in explanations of the program. Player 2 would have to invest $500 million to be eligible."


Some good quotes from legislatures: "Every other commercial on the Super Bowl was an electric vehicle commercial," he continued. "Whether you support electric vehicles, whether you oppose electric vehicles, whatever your stance is on that, it doesn't matter. That's where the industry is going. ... The electric vehicle industry is growing, and we have a chance to be at the front and center."

Also some not so good ones: "Rep. Wendi Stearman, R-Collinsville, answered promises of jobs, growth and economic diversification by saying, "I don't want Oklahoma to change, and the majority of my constituents do not want Oklahoma to change.""  ::)

Oh - bless her heart.

Quote from: ComeOnBenjals on April 20, 2022, 09:12:09 AM
https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/govt-and-politics/watch-now-house-oks-up-to-698m-economic-incentive-package/article_58a78530-c000-11ec-9dbc-0f0042d50fc1.html#tracking-source=home-top-story

House OKs up to $698M economic incentive package

Really sounds like there are multiple companies in the mix here....

"The remaining $85 million would be available to an unnamed second, "separate establishment," referred to as "Player 2" in explanations of the program. Player 2 would have to invest $500 million to be eligible."

Its Canoo... additional incremental subsidies if they expand more than originally planned.

Quote from: Tulsan on April 20, 2022, 10:22:54 PM
Its Canoo... additional incremental subsidies if they expand more than originally planned.

Idea too is that this will allow them to go after lots of others. Last I heard from the Commerce department is they have 100 active companies looking to expand or move operations to NE Oklahoma. I doubt Panasonic is the only one. We also missed out on a large Ford EV factory as well recently and were one of the top 3 sites for it primarily because of the Tesla campaign. I know it got a lot of ridicule from press and others but I think it really opened the door for us in a lot of other areas. I don't think many were under any impression we'd be able to pry Tesla away from Austin and were really a back up in case incentives there stalled or got blocked. That was really about an audition and press exposure to everyone else globally about what Tulsa is about.

https://www.fox23.com/news/oklahoma-kansas-state-governments-compete-court-mystery-fortune-500-company/4KEKUX6UBBCMHBMCKDBUEWHK2E/ (https://www.fox23.com/news/oklahoma-kansas-state-governments-compete-court-mystery-fortune-500-company/4KEKUX6UBBCMHBMCKDBUEWHK2E/)

Sounds like this is a done deal if everything passes. Apparently they've gone silent on Kansas so that's a pretty good indication we are the top site and Kansas is the back up in case something happens were the TIF or legislation fails.

______

"Kansas State Representative John Carmichael told FOX23 that while he did not support an incentive package in his state, the legislature passed one in hopes of landing the company.

"We passed a package valued at 1.3 billion dollars. We were told that we had to get that passed before March because the company was going to make its decision before March. We were also told we had to move fast because we wanted to get our proposal passed and signed by the governor before the Oklahoma legislature came back into session," Carmichael said.

Since then Carmichael says they have been left waiting.

"Then we heard nothing, nothing, nothing," Carmichael said.

Kisling says he is confident that if the senate passes the legislation in Oklahoma on Thursday the state would be one step closer to landing the unknown company.

"I think we will know pretty quickly," Kisling said.

Kisling said Mayes County will also need to pass a TIF district. A vote on a proposal is set for next week in Mayes County."

If I'm reading that right the KS proposal is for $1.3B and OK's is $700M, that's a big difference unless the TIF makes up the rest?

Quote from: SXSW on April 21, 2022, 07:07:30 AM
If I'm reading that right the KS proposal is for $1.3B and OK's is $700M, that's a big difference unless the TIF makes up the rest?

The Kansas proposal is just leverage. Kansas is the bridesmaid. We are the bride this time.

https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/state-senate-oks-698m-economic-incentive-bill-to-lure-large-manufacturing-plant-to-state/article_9da6f91e-c199-11ec-8f72-9b9ee841fd9b.html

State Senate OK's $698M economic Incentive bill to lure large manufacturing plant to state

This includes everything Stitt was referring to in his press conference, correct?

I probably haven't read enough but would these be good high paying jobs or middling assembly line jobs? It's one thing to give away your treasury for good jobs, it's another if its going to be more quasi-living wage jobs.

Quote from: DowntownDan on April 21, 2022, 02:12:59 PM
I probably haven't read enough but would these be good high paying jobs or middling assembly line jobs? It's one thing to give away your treasury for good jobs, it's another if its going to be more quasi-living wage jobs.

According to Zip Recruiter Panasonic jobs at Tesla's plant in Nevada pay $31k at the 25th percentile and $76k at the 75th percentile. So 1,000 jobs at or below $30k and a 1,000 jobs approaching six figures.

https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Jobs/Tesla-Panasonic-Gigafactory/-in-Sparks,NV

Not great, not bad, especially where the factory is going to be located. $31k for someone living in Tulsa would be hard, but not in Pryor, Claremore or Wagoner. And the high end jobs pay enough to get people to commute from Tulsa.

Quote from: swake on April 21, 2022, 02:29:35 PM
According to Zip Recruiter Panasonic jobs at Tesla's plant in Nevada pay $31k at the 25th percentile and $76k at the 75th percentile. So 1,000 jobs at or below $30k and a 1,000 jobs approaching six figures.

https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Jobs/Tesla-Panasonic-Gigafactory/-in-Sparks,NV

Not great, not bad, especially where the factory is going to be located. $31k for someone living in Tulsa would be hard, but not in Pryor, Claremore or Wagoner. And the high end jobs pay enough to get people to commute from Tulsa.

$31k in Nevada is different than $31k in Oklahoma. Nevada has no state income tax. They have a slightly higher property tax than Tulsa County, but they benefit from tourism from Reno and Lake Tahoe. Sales tax in that area is 7.75%.

Washoe County property tax rates

https://www.washoecounty.gov/treas/files/2021-22%20Combined%20Rates.pdf (https://www.washoecounty.gov/treas/files/2021-22%20Combined%20Rates.pdf)

https://www.washoecounty.gov/treas/Tax_Rates.php (https://www.washoecounty.gov/treas/Tax_Rates.php)

How different is the assembly line worker pay for Panasonic vs Tesla?  Not counting the management and engineering positions.

Quote from: SXSW on April 21, 2022, 07:54:27 PM
How different is the assembly line worker pay for Panasonic vs Tesla?  Not counting the management and engineering positions.

I'm curious how many assembly line workers are even needed in a battery factory. A lot of those factories are mainly robots and, as a bonus to save money, run in the dark since robots don't need to technically see what they're doing.

Just curious, what type of batteries are Panasonic planning to build? LG just announced that they building the first in the US cylindrical Lithium batteries.

https://www.azfamily.com/2022/03/27/lg-energy-build-battery-plant-queen-creek/ (https://www.azfamily.com/2022/03/27/lg-energy-build-battery-plant-queen-creek/)

Cylindrical vs. Prismatic batteries

https://www.lithiumion-batteries.com/cylindrical-vs-prismatic-cells.php (https://www.lithiumion-batteries.com/cylindrical-vs-prismatic-cells.php)

And citizens opposed to the project

https://www.azfamily.com/2022/04/12/300-acres-queen-creek-could-be-new-site-an-lg-battery-plant/ (https://www.azfamily.com/2022/04/12/300-acres-queen-creek-could-be-new-site-an-lg-battery-plant/)

Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on April 21, 2022, 08:05:19 PM
Just curious, what type of batteries are Panasonic planning to build? LG just announced that they building the first in the US cylindrical Lithium batteries.

It will be 4680 cylinder cells produced for Tesla.

https://insideevs.com/news/573347/tesla-4680-battery-panasonic-insight/

So will this end up being another toxic wasteland like Picher, OK?   Will there be a bond to ensure cleanup aftwards.... Lol...I make myself laugh...!!

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on April 22, 2022, 10:39:17 AM
So will this end up being another toxic wasteland like Picher, OK?   Will there be a bond to ensure cleanup aftwards.... Lol...I make myself laugh...!!

What manufacturing isn't toxic? Is it going to be any more toxic than oil & gas drilling and refining? Doubtful.

There's a far bigger toxic wasteland along the west bank of the Arkansas River with the two giant refineries that pollutes and endangers far more people than this factory will. 

Quote from: SXSW on April 21, 2022, 07:07:30 AM
If I'm reading that right the KS proposal is for $1.3B and OK's is $700M, that's a big difference unless the TIF makes up the rest?

I believe the TIF is valued somewhere around $400 million in terms of property tax rebates over the next 12 years so the total "package" of tax credits and rebates from state & local in OK is around $1.1 Billion

Oklahoma and Kansas state governments compete to court a mystery fortune 500 company:

https://www.fox23.com/news/oklahoma-kansas-state-governments-compete-court-mystery-fortune-500-company/4KEKUX6UBBCMHBMCKDBUEWHK2E/ (https://www.fox23.com/news/oklahoma-kansas-state-governments-compete-court-mystery-fortune-500-company/4KEKUX6UBBCMHBMCKDBUEWHK2E/)

Quote from: LandArchPoke on April 22, 2022, 11:35:37 AM
I believe the TIF is valued somewhere around $400 million in terms of property tax rebates over the next 12 years so the total "package" of tax credits and rebates from state & local in OK is around $1.1 Billion

Wonder if the TIF also includes all or a portion of the local sales tax?

Quote from: Vision 2025 on April 25, 2022, 12:51:35 PM
Wonder if the TIF also includes all or a portion of the local sales tax?

Would a battery factory generate much sales tax? I wouldn't think so, but could be wrong.

Quote from: LandArchPoke on April 22, 2022, 11:33:00 AM
What manufacturing isn't toxic? Is it going to be any more toxic than oil & gas drilling and refining? Doubtful.

There's a far bigger toxic wasteland along the west bank of the Arkansas River with the two giant refineries that pollutes and endangers far more people than this factory will. 

And oil/gas doesn't get cleaned up either.  We have tens of thousands of wells here that OERB says they are gonna fix.  There is a 10 year waiting list.  And has been a 10 year waiting list since I first signed onto it in 1994.

"Whatabout-ism" example number 376....so since we have several, it's no big deal to get some more....

Quote from: swake on April 25, 2022, 01:51:27 PM
Would a battery factory generate much sales tax? I wouldn't think so, but could be wrong.

It would on construction of the facility.

Quote from: Vision 2025 on April 25, 2022, 05:04:44 PM
It would on construction of the facility.

I believe the sales taxes are recorded based on where the contractor/sub is purchasing materials so there would not be much if any sales tax related to construction within the TIF boundary. I don't know if sales tax is recorded on things like battery shipments if they are a supplier versus selling stuff on the open market, frankly I haven't really seen a TIF related to manufacturing/industrial like this I've only really reviewed ones on the commercial side. It's an interesting question because if say Tesla has to pay sales tax on every battery purchased from Panasonic that'd potentially be a lot of revenue coming in to state, county, and city beyond ad valorem.

From what I've seen so far this TIF is 100% based on the ad valorem only given the size of the plant and capital investment, there isn't a need to go beyond that here.

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on April 25, 2022, 03:15:29 PM

And oil/gas doesn't get cleaned up either.  We have tens of thousands of wells here that OERB says they are gonna fix.  There is a 10 year waiting list.  And has been a 10 year waiting list since I first signed onto it in 1994.

"Whatabout-ism" example number 376....so since we have several, it's no big deal to get some more....

It's not a whatabout-ism because I don't disagree with you on the pollution that could come from this plant and every other battery and semiconductor plant being proposed to be built in the US - it's possible to point out and be objective about both sides of this. What's your solution? Just stay with what we have now? That's a horrific choice for our environment.

It's the world we live in unfortunately, corporations get to pollute and profit off it and as soon as one ever gets caught they just file for bankruptcy, execs take bonuses/profits and move on to the next one. It's also the downside of a domestic supply chain - while corps had moved off shore because it was cheaper they also took many of the facilities that cause harm to our environment to other countries but we all saw and are seeing the effects of not having any domestic supply chain capabilities. We need to find a balance and can't fully rely on China, India, etc. because you never know what is around the corner like COVID.

We also can't ignore the blatant harm that is being inflicted on our communities now and for decades past from refineries, drilling, etc. It is possible that a few concentrated battery plants, even though not 'clean', could overall have far less impact on the overall US environment than petroleum based transportation currently does now.

It would allow us in a decade or two to possibly shut down and clean up sites like the westbank refineries on the Arkansas. Imagine if we could repurpose those two sites into massive parkland/recreation areas (probably will never be able to be developed but could be remediated enough to become parkland). If that's the trade off - I'd probably say it's worth it. This site is in the middle of an industrial park without any remotely close residential dwellings - how many refineries in the US can say the same? There are a lot of them smack in the middle of very dense residential areas (Tulsa for example and look at the LA refineries in California along the beaches, Baton Rouge, etc.)

Don't act like it's only an Oklahoma problem either, that somehow we're backwards because we let people build things that will pollute our environment - it happens in every state no matter how 'great/wonderful/supposedly more progressive than we are'... liberals and conservative states are the same in that they never hold corporations responsible for harm because they want the $$$ to stay in power. Some just pretend to care slightly more than the other.

Quote from: LandArchPoke on April 25, 2022, 10:09:27 PM
I believe the sales taxes are recorded based on where the contractor/sub is purchasing materials so there would not be much if any sales tax related to construction within the TIF boundary. I don't know if sales tax is recorded on things like battery shipments if they are a supplier versus selling stuff on the open market, frankly I haven't really seen a TIF related to manufacturing/industrial like this I've only really reviewed ones on the commercial side. It's an interesting question because if say Tesla has to pay sales tax on every battery purchased from Panasonic that'd potentially be a lot of revenue coming in to state, county, and city beyond ad valorem.

From what I've seen so far this TIF is 100% based on the ad valorem only given the size of the plant and capital investment, there isn't a need to go beyond that here.

Sales Tax in Oklahoma is point of delivery, been that way for decades.  Also for property taxes for manufacturing facilities are automatically abated for the first five years after completion in Oklahoma.

Quote from: Vision 2025 on April 26, 2022, 12:21:17 PM
Sales Tax in Oklahoma is point of delivery, been that way for decades.  Also for property taxes for manufacturing facilities are automatically abated for the first five years after completion in Oklahoma.

Maybe I just wasn't clear on what I meant is that delivery on construction materials doesn't always mean at the specific construction site. It depends on what contractors/subs are being used and how materials are being sourced. Point of delivery for many things construction related typically happens through a subcontractor and the sub is then responsible for getting the materials to the site, installed, etc. Especially for large projects the materials are usually 'delivered' where they are made and then the contract/sub is responsible for getting it to the site and installed. So the sales tax is recorded at that location not at the site the material is being installed. It's a big game of depends on where the technicality of 'delivery' is, my guess is for a project of this scope and size most of the 'delivery' locations where sales taxes are being recorded and paid is not within the boundaries of this TIF. Not any different than if a framer went to M&M lumber, bought lumber there in Tulsa, and built the house in Broken Arrow. The sales tax was paid and recorded in Tulsa, M&M lumber delivered the product at the warehouse - now if they ship the materials themselves directly to a site that's a different question. So really it's a big question of depends and they likely aren't going to take any of that into consideration to value a TIF. Regardless, this TIF is being calculated off the ad valorem taxes anyways, which given the value of the project is pretty significant and far less of a guessing game than sales taxes are - typically if there's any bonding related to projects sales taxes is far more speculative than ad valorem taxes is the 'risk' profile of a bond. Which from what I've read, it sounds like this isn't being bonded either and is a rebate versus upfront payment in the TIF portion of these incentives.   

They won't be shopping at Lowe's, point of delivery will be the site for the much of the materials and remote (out of State) built assemblies delivered to the site are subject to USE Tax and together these are potentially a significant revenue stream which is why I asked.

Advance bond funding of a TIF can be challenging as there is no incremental tax increase (the revenue stream) until actual physical work is being done on the site and then the increment is only calculated annually (beginning at the next assessment cycle following creation of the TIF) during each years assessment cycle.  Advance funding takes a lot of disclosure by the entity benefitting, but they can qualify for further savings by utilizing public issued (conduit debt) tax exempt bonds which reduces the interested rate and if done correctly transfers no risk to the entity.   

Regardless, TIF's are a great funding tool, no construction = no incremental increase in the property value and no risk to the public should it not materialize.

Quote from: LandArchPoke on April 25, 2022, 10:25:05 PM
It's not a whatabout-ism because I don't disagree with you on the pollution that could come from this plant and every other battery and semiconductor plant being proposed to be built in the US - it's possible to point out and be objective about both sides of this. What's your solution? Just stay with what we have now? That's a horrific choice for our environment.

It's the world we live in unfortunately, corporations get to pollute and profit off it and as soon as one ever gets caught they just file for bankruptcy, execs take bonuses/profits and move on to the next one. It's also the downside of a domestic supply chain - while corps had moved off shore because it was cheaper they also took many of the facilities that cause harm to our environment to other countries but we all saw and are seeing the effects of not having any domestic supply chain capabilities. We need to find a balance and can't fully rely on China, India, etc. because you never know what is around the corner like COVID.

We also can't ignore the blatant harm that is being inflicted on our communities now and for decades past from refineries, drilling, etc. It is possible that a few concentrated battery plants, even though not 'clean', could overall have far less impact on the overall US environment than petroleum based transportation currently does now.

It would allow us in a decade or two to possibly shut down and clean up sites like the westbank refineries on the Arkansas. Imagine if we could repurpose those two sites into massive parkland/recreation areas (probably will never be able to be developed but could be remediated enough to become parkland). If that's the trade off - I'd probably say it's worth it. This site is in the middle of an industrial park without any remotely close residential dwellings - how many refineries in the US can say the same? There are a lot of them smack in the middle of very dense residential areas (Tulsa for example and look at the LA refineries in California along the beaches, Baton Rouge, etc.)

Don't act like it's only an Oklahoma problem either, that somehow we're backwards because we let people build things that will pollute our environment - it happens in every state no matter how 'great/wonderful/supposedly more progressive than we are'... liberals and conservative states are the same in that they never hold corporations responsible for harm because they want the $$$ to stay in power. Some just pretend to care slightly more than the other.

I agree completely and absolutely that we should first, develop what we can out of this.  And second, make sure there are bonds or deposits, or something that assures the ability to clean up the mess when they are done here and bail out.

I don't think anything will come of it just because of the ongoing national embarrassment that the Republicans in office bring to the state.  Every.  Single.  Day.!!

Specifically this week, the MAGA-ott who is calling to put Fauci in front of a firing squad.

https://news.yahoo.com/republican-oklahoma-candidate-says-try-155731253.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on April 27, 2022, 01:49:52 PM
Specifically this week, the MAGA-ott who is calling to put Fauci in front of a firing squad.

That kind of behavior is embarrassing.

Quote from: Red Arrow on April 27, 2022, 02:26:31 PM
That kind of behavior is embarrassing.

Everything we have come to expect from Putin and more!

TIF was approved. Petition has been started and will require signatures of 10% of Mayes County registered voters to sign which would take the issue to voters in November to approve the TIF. Likelihood of this petition getting that many signatures is pretty slim. The TIF hearings were fairly full, but wasn't 100% people against it and would expect that if something needs that many signatures there would have needed to be a significant outpouring of negativity and organization for that to be a real challenge.

I do wonder if the petition will cause Panasonic any delay in announcing its decision or if they will wait until after the deadline for signature submittals to make it public.

Ugh... who created the petition?

Quote from: patric on May 04, 2022, 11:27:28 AM
What corporations would move to Oklahoma when we pass laws like this?

OS Title 63 Section 1-745.39

K. Notwithstanding any other law, a civil action under this
section shall not be brought:

4. By a person who impregnated a woman seeking an abortion
through an act of rape, sexual assault, incest, or any other act
prohibited by state law.
http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/cf_pdf/2021-22%20ENR/SB/SB1503%20ENR.PDF

Even Amazon is paying employees to leave Oklahoma to seek medical procedures:
https://www.reuters.com/business/retail-consumer/amazon-reimburse-us-employees-who-travel-treatments-including-abortions-2022-05-02/

While I agree that these laws are not a good thing - we have got to stop acting like Oklahoma is the ONLY state acting ridiculous. Florida and Texas are putting us to shame in this regard (that's not a good thing either) and they are attracting companies left and right. Corporate America gives no sh**s about stuff like this. If the location saves them money and makes execs richer that's all they care about. There will be fake outrage and performative measures like what Amazon is doing but at the end of the day they do not care one bit about stuff like this. They could end stuff like this overnight if they wanted to but Republicans give them tax breaks. Toyota is back to funding the insurrections again along with most other major corporate donors. THEY DO NOT CARE.

The difference between Texas and Oklahoma is Texas actually taxes oil & gas and dedicated it to university funding which built up A&M and UT, etc. and they have a far better pipeline of educated professionals. If Oklahoma invested in OU and OSU the same way we'd be running circles around most states.

The only thing I foresee this damaging is something like Tulsa Remote, but when Texas, Florida, Georgia, Tennessee, Arizona, Nevada, North Carolina, etc. all have the same problems I just don't see it stopping economic development projects in every state. If Panasonic wanted to build their plant in say Washington or California none of those employees could afford to live there, that's far more damaging to recruiting then these backwards laws. People who have relocated here already for things like Tulsa Remote understand what they are getting into, same with people who move to Austin. You're in a Red State in a blue/purple bubble. When Dems and Independents don't vote and move away they are just enabling the crazies (far right). If you look at Oklahoma's voter registration if Dems and Independents showed up to vote our states would be split close to 50/50 and most districts would be in play, but NO ONE VOTES they just want to complain about what the far right does because that's far easier then to actually try to change anything. Oklahoma's demographics are really not that far off from places like North Carolina/Virginia but the middle and left don't vote here - for whatever reason and it's maddening.


_____

Side note: Google is announcing another major expansion of the Pryor data center facility today. 

Quote from: LandArchPoke on May 04, 2022, 12:00:29 PM
While I agree that these laws are not a good thing - we have got to stop acting like Oklahoma is the ONLY state acting ridiculous. Florida and Texas are putting us to shame in this regard (that's not a good thing either) and they are attracting companies left and right. Corporate America gives no sh**s about stuff like this. If the location saves them money and makes execs richer that's all they care about. There will be fake outrage and performative measures like what Amazon is doing but at the end of the day they do not care one bit about stuff like this. They could end stuff like this overnight if they wanted to but Republicans give them tax breaks. Toyota is back to funding the insurrections again along with most other major corporate donors. THEY DO NOT CARE.

The difference between Texas and Oklahoma is Texas actually taxes oil & gas and dedicated it to university funding which built up A&M and UT, etc. and they have a far better pipeline of educated professionals. If Oklahoma invested in OU and OSU the same way we'd be running circles around most states.

The only thing I foresee this damaging is something like Tulsa Remote, but when Texas, Florida, Georgia, Tennessee, Arizona, Nevada, North Carolina, etc. all have the same problems I just don't see it stopping economic development projects in every state. If Panasonic wanted to build their plant in say Washington or California none of those employees could afford to live there, that's far more damaging to recruiting then these backwards laws. People who have relocated here already for things like Tulsa Remote understand what they are getting into, same with people who move to Austin. You're in a Red State in a blue/purple bubble. When Dems and Independents don't vote and move away they are just enabling the crazies (far right). If you look at Oklahoma's voter registration if Dems and Independents showed up to vote our states would be split close to 50/50 and most districts would be in play, but NO ONE VOTES they just want to complain about what the far right does because that's far easier then to actually try to change anything. Oklahoma's demographics are really not that far off from places like North Carolina/Virginia but the middle and left don't vote here - for whatever reason and it's maddening.


_____

Side note: Google is announcing another major expansion of the Pryor data center facility today. 

Yep to everything you wrote. However since 70% of the country is in favor of women's rights, since that's ultimately what the abortion debate is about, businesses do listen. Getting tax breaks is one thing but in the end the customers are the important thing. People keep misunderstanding how a capitalist society works - it's all about the money. Dems keep forgetting that. You vote with your money. Stop shopping at places that support or even encourage these un-American ideals. I haven't shopped at Wal-Mart for literally 25 years. I haven't ate at Chick-fil-A in the same time period (mainly bc the food is crap but I maintained it due to their opposition to gay rights). I stopped going to Merritt's Bakery when they refused to do wedding cakes for gay marriages (still haven't found where that's at in the Bible). I would never buy a Toyota for a whole stack of reasons and their lack of a spine just adds to it. I won't deal with any a$$hat business that runs Trump stickers on their trucks. Won't touch Mullin plumbing. Absolutely don't go to Jimmy Johns since apparently hunting endangered animals is how their owner spends his money - what a twat. Honestly any business who advertises their politics in either direction confuses me - that's terrible business. My pennies may not sway any of these places by themselves but I've gotten most of my friends to do the same once I tell them my reasons. And let the businesses know.

Of course I also think the whole insurrection and everything else Republicans have done lately is just a dead cat bounce before they lose all power.

Quote from: LandArchPoke on May 04, 2022, 12:00:29 PM
While I agree that these laws are not a good thing - we have got to stop acting like Oklahoma is the ONLY state acting ridiculous. Florida and Texas are putting us to shame in this regard (that's not a good thing either) and they are attracting companies left and right. Corporate America gives no sh**s about stuff like this. If the location saves them money and makes execs richer that's all they care about. There will be fake outrage and performative measures like what Amazon is doing but at the end of the day they do not care one bit about stuff like this. They could end stuff like this overnight if they wanted to but Republicans give them tax breaks. Toyota is back to funding the insurrections again along with most other major corporate donors. THEY DO NOT CARE.

The difference between Texas and Oklahoma is Texas actually taxes oil & gas and dedicated it to university funding which built up A&M and UT, etc. and they have a far better pipeline of educated professionals. If Oklahoma invested in OU and OSU the same way we'd be running circles around most states.

The only thing I foresee this damaging is something like Tulsa Remote, but when Texas, Florida, Georgia, Tennessee, Arizona, Nevada, North Carolina, etc. all have the same problems I just don't see it stopping economic development projects in every state. If Panasonic wanted to build their plant in say Washington or California none of those employees could afford to live there, that's far more damaging to recruiting then these backwards laws. People who have relocated here already for things like Tulsa Remote understand what they are getting into, same with people who move to Austin. You're in a Red State in a blue/purple bubble. When Dems and Independents don't vote and move away they are just enabling the crazies (far right). If you look at Oklahoma's voter registration if Dems and Independents showed up to vote our states would be split close to 50/50 and most districts would be in play, but NO ONE VOTES they just want to complain about what the far right does because that's far easier then to actually try to change anything. Oklahoma's demographics are really not that far off from places like North Carolina/Virginia but the middle and left don't vote here - for whatever reason and it's maddening.


_____

Side note: Google is announcing another major expansion of the Pryor data center facility today. 

Truth!


But there are tiny little rays of hope...this guy - Trae Crowder - 'gets it'.  And talks about it here.  Caution;  rough edges!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu5znlyX9uY

Quote from: LandArchPoke on May 04, 2022, 12:00:29 PM
If you look at Oklahoma's voter registration if Dems and Independents showed up to vote our states would be split close to 50/50 and most districts would be in play, but NO ONE VOTES they just want to complain about what the far right does because that's far easier then to actually try to change anything. Oklahoma's demographics are really not that far off from places like North Carolina/Virginia but the middle and left don't vote here - for whatever reason and it's maddening.

This is not an entirely fair criticism, IMO.

Republicans have a massive advantage state-wide, with 51% of all registered voters, while Democrats have 31%.

Independents and Libertarian make up another 17%, but even if 100% of them voted Democrat (a big stretch) Republicans would still have the advantage.

Furthermore, that is just looking at state-wide statistics. In the rural areas that advantage is much more pronounced with Republicans making up 70-80% of registered voters in many areas. These are the areas that are electing the same crazy lawmakers unopposed over and over again.

This is the same thing that happens in places you noted like Texas, Florida, North Carolina, etc.  The cities may be purple or even blue, but the state legislatures are massively over-represented by rural areas that vote solidly red.

It's a microcosm of the country as a whole in that regard, where "Land" very often gets more representation than actual people.

Quote from: Jeff P on May 05, 2022, 10:27:26 AM
This is not an entirely fair criticism, IMO.

Republicans have a massive advantage state-wide, with 51% of all registered voters, while Democrats have 31%.

Independents and Libertarian make up another 17%, but even if 100% of them voted Democrat (a big stretch) Republicans would still have the advantage.

Furthermore, that is just looking at state-wide statistics. In the rural areas that advantage is much more pronounced with Republicans making up 70-80% of registered voters in many areas. These are the areas that are electing the same crazy lawmakers unopposed over and over again.

This is the same thing that happens in places you noted like Texas, Florida, North Carolina, etc.  The cities may be purple or even blue, but the state legislatures are massively over-represented by rural areas that vote solidly red.

It's a microcosm of the country as a whole in that regard, where "Land" very often gets more representation than actual people.

You're right for sure in that there is a big gap right now, but look at the eligible population of voters to registered voters as well. The Republican party is doing a great job at getting new voters to register here, Democrats that is non existent and more voters for the party are letting registrations end because they don't vote and are being removed. Brad Henry was about the last moment in time the state party was even remotely on it's game and has been in shambles since and I don't understand how they are so unorganized - part of it could be the national party has given up on states like Oklahoma and I largely blame them for many of the issues too because they've abandoned large swaths of the country.

Most Independents vote Democrat in Oklahoma, most Independents are former Republicans that can't stand the party and won't vote for them but it's a taboo thing in Oklahoma that a large majority of moderates just will never call themselves a Democrat, but they will vote for them and don't like how extreme the Republican party in the state has gotten. In that sense it reminds me a lot of New Mexico as well, they have a big Independent/Libertarian voter population and one of the few states that has had a none Dem/Rep Governor recently.

Unlike Texas and other red states/blue cities, in Oklahoma you don't see the suburban areas up in contested elections often and there's far more moderates in Broken Arrow, Jenks, etc. then people think especially given the legislatures that are being elected in those areas. The Republican party has done a great job at convincing people that no one stands a chance against them and then I've see so many friends in these areas who are registered Republicans not even go vote for the more moderate candidate because they don't think that candidate even has a chance in a Republican primary. So then we get stuck with a large portion of 'extreme' politicians even in suburban areas that has cause are legislature to become even more imbalanced towards the far right versus closer to the center. They've convinced Democrats to not vote and they've now gotten to the point they've even convinced the moderates in their own party to not vote. It's really bizarre.

Getting more Independents/Libertarians out to vote and getting Democrats to actually register and vote and you could flip just about every Republican district that is in the Tulsa & OKC suburban areas. Granted that would probably be countered to an extent with even more gerrymandering.

If you look at the voter turn out too, it's really not that great even for Republicans here... we have one of the lowest voter turnout percentages in the nation as a state. In most races, the total votes for Republicans are below the total number of Democrats registered to vote (excluding Independents, etc.) in whatever race/district, so I do blame Democrat voters for not turning out because if they could figure out a way to get people to the polls you'd be surprised at how close races would get in more populated area and frankly in most of eastern Oklahoma. Western Oklahoma the percentages are just too wide but there are many areas in the states that are uncompetitive now that shouldn't be if voter turnout was better and the Democratic party did a better job at getting people registered to vote and show up. The state wide party is a complete sh** show along with the Tulsa County party, etc. so until they can get some leadership and actual funding I don't see things changing and it's sad. It makes me angry at the national party for abandoning states like Oklahoma, but the national party isn't a big fan of 'moderates' so they would rather focus on California, NY, etc. but they so unbelievable short sighted they don't see how getting a few dozen moderates into national House of Rep seats and even 3-4 more moderate senators would make it a lot easier to get more progressive legislation through in higher majorities. But no, they'd rather shoot themselves in the foot by turning their back on areas they deem as unworthy. That's why it irritates me with liberals who live here that bash Oklahoma like we're some reject state - we're not worse than Texas, Florida, etc. we've just largely decided to give up on ourselves.

When our family moved to OK from PA in 1971, OK frequently voted Republican for President but a Republican couldn't get elected as a dog catcher in anything local.

What happened?  I didn't like Jim Jones, Mike Synar..... but I don't like much of the current Republican wackos either.  If the Democrats could put up someone more moderate than left-wing wacko, they could get a foothold again. I'd still vote moderate Republican over moderate Democrat but I will vote moderate Democrat over wacko right wing religious zealot Republican.  I try to vote against anyone whose primary qualification for office is their religious views.

Edit: grammar correction.

Quote from: Red Arrow on May 06, 2022, 06:36:25 PM
When our family moved to OK from PA in 1971, OK frequently voted Republican for President but a Republican couldn't get elected as a dog catcher in anything local.

What happened?  I didn't like Jim Jones, Mike Synar..... but I don't like much of the current Republican wackos either.  If the Democrats could put up someone more moderate than left-wing wacko, they could get a foothold again. I'd still vote moderate Republican over moderate Democrat but I will vote moderate Democrat over wacko right wing religious zealot Republican.  I try to vote against anyone whose primary qualification for office is their religious views.

Edit: grammar correction.

Dems do need to learn to put up candidates that are appropriate for the area even if that person isn't really in lock-step with the national platforms. With Oklahoma and some other states I'm not sure what to do however - religion used to be something personal and the majority of Okies didn't wear it on their sleeves or define themselves by it but Christian Nationalism has completely taken over the right now. I'm not really seeing any Republicans that isn't a wacko right wing religious zealot, or at least who acts like they are to get votes and grift in general.

Also - the last time Oklahoma voted Democrat for President was Johnson and that was really only because Kennedy got assassinated. Before that it was Truman. All quite ironic since OK seriously benefited from the WPA programs of the Dems.

Quote from: Red Arrow on May 06, 2022, 06:36:25 PM
When our family moved to OK from PA in 1971, OK frequently voted Republican for President but a Republican couldn't get elected as a dog catcher in anything local.

What happened?  

The same thing that happened in every Southern state. The old Southern Dixicrats essentially became Republican after the Civil Right act. It just took a while for the party to fully and officially turn over so got a lot of leftover conservative Southern Democrats getting elected in the south in the 70s and 80s before Newt's "revolution" in the 90s and the rise of talk radio and Fox News, which created "litmus tests" for conservative candidates and one of them was "must be Republican."

Quote from: Red Arrow on May 06, 2022, 06:36:25 PM
When our family moved to OK from PA in 1971, OK frequently voted Republican for President but a Republican couldn't get elected as a dog catcher in anything local.

What happened?  I didn't like Jim Jones, Mike Synar..... but I don't like much of the current Republican wackos either.  If the Democrats could put up someone more moderate than left-wing wacko, they could get a foothold again. I'd still vote moderate Republican over moderate Democrat but I will vote moderate Democrat over wacko right wing religious zealot Republican.  I try to vote against anyone whose primary qualification for office is their religious views.

Edit: grammar correction.

Dem's have pretty much lost their ever-loving minds!   For the most part, they are still more about personal rights and Constitutional type privileges - WAY more than the Republicontins - but 2nd Amendment... Really??   That is one particular kook-aid that they need to get smart about!   Gun control in this country has always, at least since the beginning, about keeping Black people unarmed.  Now they want to expand that to everyone.  They REALLY need to pull their heads out on that.  It's the 2nd one - it was known at that time to be THAT important to take the place right behind the 1st one!!

Lol what happened to this thread

Anyone know what Panasonic's timeline for announcing their battery plant project?

Quote from: D-TownTulsan on May 10, 2022, 08:37:49 AM
Lol what happened to this thread

We've been drinking. Don't judge us!  ;D

Quote from: D-TownTulsan on May 10, 2022, 08:37:49 AM
Lol what happened to this thread

I thought the connection would be obvious....we, as Okies can't concentrate clearly to do the best job capable of when worried about taking away our most treasured privileges!   Own and bear arms...  so the plant can't possibly be a success when this is hovering over us!


There.  Connected!

https://www.theverge.com/2022/5/10/23065974/canoo-ev-startup-earnings-q1-2022-cash-net-loss

I assume they just declare bankruptcy, reorganize, and offload a bunch of debt? I'm glad they did an SPAC for this.

Quote from: buffalodan on May 10, 2022, 04:56:26 PM
https://www.theverge.com/2022/5/10/23065974/canoo-ev-startup-earnings-q1-2022-cash-net-loss

I assume they just declare bankruptcy, reorganize, and offload a bunch of debt? I'm glad they did an SPAC for this.

Oh man - running out of money! If only someone had seen this coming! Wait - I did on page 2 of this thread in June of 2021.

This is not looking good:

                         (https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/2Cta2nmXBdGg.ZyYPEkPtQ--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTQyMDtoPTIwOTtjZj13ZWJw/https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/Hfe2mzkbuPPhSjXgZHvwCw--~B/aD0xNDk7dz0zMDA7YXBwaWQ9eXRhY2h5b24-/https://media.zenfs.com/en/koki_cox_articles_453/321ccc01f89578e1cb44c62e8c84bb9d)

Canoo CEO warns company could go out business before a single car is made in Pryor:  https://news.yahoo.com/canoo-ceo-warns-company-could-155946217.html (https://news.yahoo.com/canoo-ceo-warns-company-could-155946217.html)

If the state somehow botches the Panasonic factory...

Quote from: tulsabug on May 10, 2022, 05:59:42 PM
Oh man - running out of money! If only someone had seen this coming! Wait - I did on page 2 of this thread in June of 2021.

My only hope for the long-term survival of Canoo came when I found out GKFF became investors. Granted Solyndra was a disaster for them and this could be that 2.0, but I have a feeling Canoo will probably file bankruptcy and reorganize and GKFF and other investors will end up taking over and with far less bad debt. Who knows though.

Quote from: Jake on May 11, 2022, 11:51:02 AM
If the state somehow botches the Panasonic factory...

Well Stitt and the other Republicans were too busy passing a bunch of ridiculous laws instead of getting the economic package passed. Kansas did it first thing they could and we kicked the can down the road until they got pissed off.

My guess is they aren't going to make a public announcement until after the deadline for the TIF petition filing deadline. I doubt it will be successful but they are probably not wanting to antagonize or add fuel to the fire. They can still be working on plans and moving forward without the public announcement. If they were going to pick Kansas we would have heard an announcement by now.

Quote from: Laramie on May 11, 2022, 11:41:36 AM
This is not looking good:

                        (https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/2Cta2nmXBdGg.ZyYPEkPtQ--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTQyMDtoPTIwOTtjZj13ZWJw/https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/Hfe2mzkbuPPhSjXgZHvwCw--~B/aD0xNDk7dz0zMDA7YXBwaWQ9eXRhY2h5b24-/https://media.zenfs.com/en/koki_cox_articles_453/321ccc01f89578e1cb44c62e8c84bb9d)

Canoo CEO warns company could go out business before a single car is made in Pryor:  https://news.yahoo.com/canoo-ceo-warns-company-could-155946217.html (https://news.yahoo.com/canoo-ceo-warns-company-could-155946217.html)

This is a misunderstanding of how financial statements work. Canoo has always burned cash and has never generated revenue to my knowledge, and certainly has never posted a profit. Therefore, they rely on their ability to acquire debt and/or issue equity to fund their continued operations. Any company operating thusly is pretty much required to have those kind of statements in their financial statements. There's always the possibility that the market turns sour (like what is happening now) and the ability of these fledgling companies to keep getting money until they can actually start making revenue will dry up.

That being said, Canoo is a long ways away from meaningful production, and they are burning cash quickly while they get off the ground. They have a bad strategy and an arguably unappealing product. To make things worse, they keep losing senior people and the CEO's compensation is suspect. If they were JUST burning money in pursuit of their goals I wouldn't be worried, because that is typical with this stage of a massive start-up. It's the loss of senior people and failure to come up with an appealing design that really spells trouble.

I hope it somehow works out, but with the markets turning ugly they have a high chance of getting flushed. Back in 2019 or so they could have still made it just because the bull market made getting funding easy.

Quote from: shavethewhales on May 11, 2022, 01:23:43 PM
This is a misunderstanding of how financial statements work. Canoo has always burned cash and has never generated revenue to my knowledge, and certainly has never posted a profit. Therefore, they rely on their ability to acquire debt and/or issue equity to fund their continued operations. Any company operating thusly is pretty much required to have those kind of statements in their financial statements. There's always the possibility that the market turns sour (like what is happening now) and the ability of these fledgling companies to keep getting money until they can actually start making revenue will dry up.

That being said, Canoo is a long ways away from meaningful production, and they are burning cash quickly while they get off the ground. They have a bad strategy and an arguably unappealing product. To make things worse, they keep losing senior people and the CEO's compensation is suspect. If they were JUST burning money in pursuit of their goals I wouldn't be worried, because that is typical with this stage of a massive start-up. It's the loss of senior people and failure to come up with an appealing design that really spells trouble.

I hope it somehow works out, but with the markets turning ugly they have a high chance of getting flushed. Back in 2019 or so they could have still made it just because the bull market made getting funding easy.

In the ordinary cases you mention, they never say that their continuation is "doubtful." It's a major red flag. My friends and I always thought it smelled a bit like a fluke of a company that would never make it, and I hate to see it might be going that way. I see very little about this company on any major national business media. Never really felt like a legitimate startup. The governor, of course, will face no repercussions as long as he continues effing with Indian tribes and throwing out national red meat.

Quote from: shavethewhales on May 11, 2022, 01:23:43 PM
This is a misunderstanding of how financial statements work. Canoo has always burned cash and has never generated revenue to my knowledge, and certainly has never posted a profit. Therefore, they rely on their ability to acquire debt and/or issue equity to fund their continued operations. Any company operating thusly is pretty much required to have those kind of statements in their financial statements. There's always the possibility that the market turns sour (like what is happening now) and the ability of these fledgling companies to keep getting money until they can actually start making revenue will dry up.

That being said, Canoo is a long ways away from meaningful production, and they are burning cash quickly while they get off the ground. They have a bad strategy and an arguably unappealing product. To make things worse, they keep losing senior people and the CEO's compensation is suspect. If they were JUST burning money in pursuit of their goals I wouldn't be worried, because that is typical with this stage of a massive start-up. It's the loss of senior people and failure to come up with an appealing design that really spells trouble.

I hope it somehow works out, but with the markets turning ugly they have a high chance of getting flushed. Back in 2019 or so they could have still made it just because the bull market made getting funding easy.

This company has been a clusterfark from day one when it basically morphed from another failing EV company. In it's defense however, Tesla builds some ugly cars too. I think in the end all these independent electric car companies are gonna be goners (Tesla included) but it'll be fun to watch the carnage while it lasts.

As much as many of us are rooting for this multi-million plant for Pryor, Canoo's track record doesn't look that promising.

The State has money thru the Quality Jobs Program; however until Canoo can show that they are legit and not depending on OPMs  
it's beginning to look bleak.

Hope we can secure the Panasonic Battery Plant; that will be a 'win' for the State and a 'good get' for Tulsa.  Panasonic has an
agreement to supply batteries for Canoo's EV, there's weight on Canoo tied to Panasonic.

Canoo has always looked like a pyramid scheme of some sort.  By this point, even a small prototype plant could have been put together somewhere and started cranking out real product.  What have they made?  Something like 40-45 cars?   One of the TV show car places like Gas Monkey or Count's Customs could have done better.  And spent a LOT less money doing it!

Now this would be an interesting development.  Imagine both Apple and Google in Pryor

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-looks-to-acquire-the-start-up-Canoo-to-bolster-its-e-vehicle-division.619827.0.html (https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-looks-to-acquire-the-start-up-Canoo-to-bolster-its-e-vehicle-division.619827.0.html)

Quote from: SXSW on May 15, 2022, 11:54:04 PM
Now this would be an interesting development.  Imagine both Apple and Google in Pryor

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-looks-to-acquire-the-start-up-Canoo-to-bolster-its-e-vehicle-division.619827.0.html (https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-looks-to-acquire-the-start-up-Canoo-to-bolster-its-e-vehicle-division.619827.0.html)

Bring in an AWS data center and have the trifecta.

Quote from: SXSW on May 15, 2022, 11:54:04 PM
Now this would be an interesting development.  Imagine both Apple and Google in Pryor

They would probably build at the other end of the airport and then complain about the airplanes.

That would be a beautiful plot twist... except that may mean their plans for the Pryor plant would be scrapped. Canoo is already too spread out. It's like they courted both AR and OK and couldn't pick one so they tried to make us both happy - or maybe just maximize the free tax money handouts. Not sure what apple would do with the company if they got it. OK has a pretty sweet deal already signed, so maybe they would tilt things in our favor for the production plant at least? Not sure what AR offered them.

Quote from: shavethewhales on May 16, 2022, 08:33:38 AM
That would be a beautiful plot twist... except that may mean their plans for the Pryor plant would be scrapped. Canoo is already too spread out. It's like they courted both AR and OK and couldn't pick one so they tried to make us both happy - or maybe just maximize the free tax money handouts. Not sure what apple would do with the company if they got it. OK has a pretty sweet deal already signed, so maybe they would tilt things in our favor for the production plant at least? Not sure what AR offered them.

Depends on how involved Wal-Mart is in any new deal with Canoo/Apple.  The plan was always to have the "mega micro plant" in Pryor and a smaller facility in Bentonville.  HQ in Bentonville and R&D in Tulsa.  Panasonic would be the lynchpin, if they are building at Mid-America and assuming they are still using their batteries it makes sense to keep the production there and benefit from all the incentives.  Most of the R&D stays in Cupertino but maybe some engineering support can still be located in Tulsa.  There is a great new office building waiting for them at Cameron & Detroit.   :)

The Tulsa region has been on the bad end of things so many times on big deals hopefully these is our time for some good luck. Would be awesome to have Apple in the region - the further along the factory in Pryor gets the less likely they'd consolidate staff in California. It'd be too valuable of a site to get rid of if the factory had substantial progress made. Makes even more sense with Panasonic there too - would be a great partnership for Apple on EV development.

Quote from: LandArchPoke on May 16, 2022, 08:25:55 PM
The Tulsa region has been on the bad end of things so many times on big deals hopefully these is our time for some good luck. Would be awesome to have Apple in the region - the further along the factory in Pryor gets the less likely they'd consolidate staff in California. It'd be too valuable of a site to get rid of if the factory had substantial progress made. Makes even more sense with Panasonic there too - would be a great partnership for Apple on EV development.

Rumor | Apple looks to acquire the start-up Canoo to bolster its e-vehicle division:  https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-looks-to-acquire-the-start-up-Canoo-to-bolster-its-e-vehicle-division.619827.0.html (https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-looks-to-acquire-the-start-up-Canoo-to-bolster-its-e-vehicle-division.619827.0.html)


If Apple were to acquire Canoo, you don't have to concern yourself with Tulsa area being on the bad end of anything.   The 'capital' will be there and the proposals from the state will kick in.  Fingers crossed.

If Apple were to get involved that would solidify Canoo's portfolio with the capital to back up Canoo investment and the State of Oklahoma
would be more willing to release whatever funds are needed to bring those jobs to Oklahoma.

Governor Kevin Stitt is looking for a 'win' following the Swadley's debacle and the complete fall-out he has had with the tribes. Predict Stitt
will have trouble getting re-elected.

Quote from: Laramie on May 18, 2022, 04:20:55 PM
Rumor | Apple looks to acquire the start-up Canoo to bolster its e-vehicle division:  https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-looks-to-acquire-the-start-up-Canoo-to-bolster-its-e-vehicle-division.619827.0.html (https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-looks-to-acquire-the-start-up-Canoo-to-bolster-its-e-vehicle-division.619827.0.html)


If Apple were to acquire Canoo, you don't have to concern yourself with Tulsa area being on the bad end of anything.   The 'capital' will be there and the proposals from the state will kick in.  Fingers crossed.

If Apple were to get involved that would solidify Canoo's portfolio with the capital to back up Canoo investment and the State of Oklahoma
would be more willing to release whatever funds are needed to bring those jobs to Oklahoma.

Governor Kevin Stitt is looking for a 'win' following the Swadley's debacle and the complete fall-out he has had with the tribes. Predict Stitt
will have trouble getting re-elected.

If Apple is smart, and they are, they'll let Canoo declare bankruptcy and then buy them out of that so they don't have to assume any debt.

I hope Stitt gets kicked to the curb but I'm sure if that happens this state will just find a way to elect another incompetent idiot with delusions of grandeur.

Quote from: tulsabug on May 19, 2022, 05:35:24 AM
If Apple is smart, and they are, they'll let Canoo declare bankruptcy and then buy them out of that so they don't have to assume any debt.

I hope Stitt gets kicked to the curb but I'm sure if that happens this state will just find a way to elect another incompetent idiot with delusions of grandeur.

Not sure if he would run but the mayor of OKC, David Holt, would be a good option for governor.  Republican but moderate and pro-education and economic development

Quote from: SXSW on May 19, 2022, 07:18:14 AM
Not sure if he would run but the mayor of OKC, David Holt, would be a good option for governor.  Republican but moderate and pro-education and economic development

Agreed - I'm still unsure about Joy of where she really stands on things. David I think would give Stitt a good primary challenge if he could successfully motivate moderates to actually vote. Unfortunately in Oklahoma that is a massive problem.

I used to think GT would be great, but not anymore. He's a wolf in sheep's clothing and extremely politically motivated - Holt seems to be an actual really good person. The Lt. Governor too I think would be 100x better as a Governor than Stitt, I wish he'd primary against him.

Quote from: tulsabug on May 19, 2022, 05:35:24 AM
If Apple is smart, and they are, they'll let Canoo declare bankruptcy and then buy them out of that so they don't have to assume any debt.

I hope Stitt gets kicked to the curb but I'm sure if that happens this state will just find a way to elect another incompetent idiot with delusions of grandeur.

Apple seems to be really interested in the employees of Canoo from what I have seen a few places. They are desperate for more engineers for their automotive project. Seems to be mixed opinions if Canoo's software is of much interest or not.

If they let Canoo file, it's likely they'll have layoffs and hemorrhage employees/talent. Apple probably has the sway to renegotiate debt terms so they might be able to do essentially what bankruptcy would do on that side without the risk of losing talent they need.

Quote from: LandArchPoke on May 19, 2022, 11:26:59 AM
Agreed - I'm still unsure about Joy of where she really stands on things. David I think would give Stitt a good primary challenge if he could successfully motivate moderates to actually vote. Unfortunately in Oklahoma that is a massive problem.

I used to think GT would be great, but not anymore. He's a wolf in sheep's clothing and extremely politically motivated - Holt seems to be an actual really good person. The Lt. Governor too I think would be 100x better as a Governor than Stitt, I wish he'd primary against him.

Apple seems to be really interested in the employees of Canoo from what I have seen a few places. They are desperate for more engineers for their automotive project. Seems to be mixed opinions if Canoo's software is of much interest or not.

If they let Canoo file, it's likely they'll have layoffs and hemorrhage employees/talent. Apple probably has the sway to renegotiate debt terms so they might be able to do essentially what bankruptcy would do on that side without the risk of losing talent they need.

Apple is holding over $200 billion in cash. They don't need financing.

Quote from: swake on May 19, 2022, 01:44:05 PM
Apple is holding over $200 billion in cash. They don't need financing.

That's very true - Canoo would be a fairly minor purchase for them in comparison to the size of Apple.

Anyone else hear anything about another possible 2,000 job employer?

Stitt made a comment about how he just secured another company of 2,000 jobs - sounded in context that this was not Canoo and then mentioned 'Project Ocean' which is Panasonic.

It was just a super brief clip of him talking that was on Channel 8 and haven't been able to find the clip again anywhere.

The legislature is working on another economic incentives bill and seems like it's in relation to this - that would grant tax credits differently for large scale expansion and would make it more permanent. Was called LEAD act or something like that I think - could totally be wrong on the name. This is something separate from legislation that was for Project Ocean.

Stitt did say that Project Ocean is in the process of board approval within the company so my guess is it'll probably be another month or two before formal announcements are made.

Quote from: LandArchPoke on May 20, 2022, 04:00:28 PM
Anyone else hear anything about another possible 2,000 job employer?

Stitt made a comment about how he just secured another company of 2,000 jobs - sounded in context that this was not Canoo and then mentioned 'Project Ocean' which is Panasonic.

It was just a super brief clip of him talking that was on Channel 8 and haven't been able to find the clip again anywhere.

The legislature is working on another economic incentives bill and seems like it's in relation to this - that would grant tax credits differently for large scale expansion and would make it more permanent. Was called LEAD act or something like that I think - could totally be wrong on the name. This is something separate from legislation that was for Project Ocean.

Stitt did say that Project Ocean is in the process of board approval within the company so my guess is it'll probably be another month or two before formal announcements are made.

There was money in the Panasonic bill for an unnamed second company at Pryor.

Quote from: swake on May 20, 2022, 04:29:15 PM
There was money in the Panasonic bill for an unnamed second company at Pryor.

Interesting... did it say anything about location, sector, etc. ?

I can't remember what that bill even was number or named to be able to pull it up.

I see that Canoo is in serious trouble even though the have a deal in the works with NASA to build a vehicle for transporting astronauts to the launch pad.

QuoteBENTONVILLE, Ark. (KNWA/KFTA) — The electric vehicle maker promising to bring more than 500 jobs to Northwest Arkansas might not have enough cash to last another year.

Six months ago, Canoo announced plans to move its headquarters to Bentonville and create a research and development center in Fayetteville. Since then, the start-up has hit a number of bumps in the road. In December, three top executives left the company. Then, came its first-quarter earnings report. Canoo reported a net loss of $125 million and was forced to issue a warning that there is substantial doubt it can meet its financial obligations 12 months from now.

It has not been all bad news. Canoo has thousands of pre-orders and plans to start production by the end of the year. Even NASA has taken notice, selecting Canoo to provide transportation for astronauts to the launchpad for an upcoming mission to the moon. KNWA's Chad Mira took a test drive with the CEO to learn more about the vehicle and its pathway to production.

https://www.nwahomepage.com/news/ev-maker-moving-to-nwa-issues-financial-warning/ (https://www.nwahomepage.com/news/ev-maker-moving-to-nwa-issues-financial-warning/)

Also, I highly doubt that Walmart will enter into a deal with Apple after they have already entered into a deal with Samsung for ~1million phones for their store employees. The company I work for has been building the phones for a year, and we have built among three locations approximately 700k phones so far.

Here is the info on the phones

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-ktxfDRt/0/4ddc21a2/L/i-ktxfDRt-L.jpg) (https://kevinallsop.smugmug.com/Misc-3/n-x46z7K/i-ktxfDRt/A)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-22stc4g/0/e346ba76/L/i-22stc4g-L.jpg) (https://kevinallsop.smugmug.com/Misc-3/n-x46z7K/i-22stc4g/A)

Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on June 09, 2022, 07:32:14 AM
I see that Canoo is in serious trouble even though the have a deal in the works with NASA to build a vehicle for transporting astronauts to the launch pad.

Geez....they are gonna make a passenger van....!

^^That's just old news being regurgitated. Same "going concern" discussion. They have some money from now and have apparently already been producing a few cars in AR. Probably hand built and cost them a ton, but hopefully they are on the way to scaling and automation. If they can produce a couple thousand cars this year they may get to stick around.

If you check their twitter feed they've been showing off a bunch of their vans lately to AR officials and media.

Lots of chatter out of Kansas regarding Panasonic.  Their governor "very confident" they will land the plant. 

https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/news/2022/06/06/kansas-laura-kelly-megaproject-panasonic.html (https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/news/2022/06/06/kansas-laura-kelly-megaproject-panasonic.html)

lol

If Oklahoma somehow blows the Panasonic deal, it might be the last straw in terms of me starting to look to move out of state. Not that it affects me personally, but it would show that the state isn't progressing at all. Fingers crossed.

Quote from: ComeOnBenjals on June 09, 2022, 01:16:33 PM
If Oklahoma somehow blows the Panasonic deal, it might be the last straw in terms of me starting to look to move out of state. Not that it affects me personally, but it would show that the state isn't progressing at all. Fingers crossed.

Want a job building batteries

https://www.azcommerce.com/news-events/news/2021/7/kore-power-selects-arizona-site-for-one-million-square-foot-koreplex-lithium-ion-battery-manufacturing-facility/ (https://www.azcommerce.com/news-events/news/2021/7/kore-power-selects-arizona-site-for-one-million-square-foot-koreplex-lithium-ion-battery-manufacturing-facility/)

Recycling Li Ion batteries

https://ktar.com/story/5062729/lithium-ion-battery-recycling-plant-opens-in-gilbert/ (https://ktar.com/story/5062729/lithium-ion-battery-recycling-plant-opens-in-gilbert/)

or building cars for Lucid Motors? A friend just got hired, starts July 1st at $58k plus 15,000 shares of stock as a bonus.

https://www.indeed.com/q-Lucid-l-Arizona-jobs.html?vjk=c16f60efa80cde0d (https://www.indeed.com/q-Lucid-l-Arizona-jobs.html?vjk=c16f60efa80cde0d)

Quote from: ComeOnBenjals on June 09, 2022, 01:16:33 PM
If Oklahoma somehow blows the Panasonic deal, it might be the last straw in terms of me starting to look to move out of state. Not that it affects me personally, but it would show that the state isn't progressing at all. Fingers crossed.

Just gotta keep plugging away, trying to educate those you can!   And realize that this has always been a fascist state, much like the US has always been a fascist country, and just go on!   Hint;  another state ain't gonna help!


Watch Trey - he puts it all into proper perspective!   Anywhere ya go,....there ya are!

Oh, yeah...our raccoons have been busy!  (You will get the reference in about the first 10 seconds of the video!) There are now 4 babies running around with Mama in the backyard!   Living under our shed, while Mama lives in the attic next door!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu5znlyX9uY&t=3s

Quote from: ComeOnBenjals on June 09, 2022, 01:16:33 PM
If Oklahoma somehow blows the Panasonic deal, it might be the last straw in terms of me starting to look to move out of state. Not that it affects me personally, but it would show that the state isn't progressing at all. Fingers crossed.

The Sunflower site in Kansas is likely a better site halfway between Lawrence and Kansas City.  So closer to where workers currently live vs the more isolated Mid-America location.  While of course I want to see Oklahoma land it I can understand and won't be too surprised if it doesn't.  Plenty of future opportunities available, and glad that OK is getting into the mix on these expansions.

Take it with a grain of salt - because nobody knows - but I heard rumors that Panasonic may split the factory and do both sites to ensure they can fill all positions.

So we've gone from OK is gonna get it to KS is gonna get it to we're both gonna get it which means only one thing....


Texas is gonna get it.   :-\

Now talk of delaying the Canoo plant due to BS reasons.

https://tulsaworld.com/business/local/canoos-proposed-electric-vehicle-plant-in-pryor-could-be-delayed-industrial-park-head-says/article_4421c660-f896-11ec-945c-93628edd01aa.html#tracking-source=home-top-story

FTA - "It is in delay mode, but that's for a number of reasons," MAIP Chief Administrative Officer David Stewart said Thursday before a regular meeting of the Oklahoma Ordnance Works Authority, which operates the industrial park.

"The whole EV market has taken a significant hit. The stock market is challenged at best," he continued.

"Supply-chain issues are big, as they are with all companies, but especially with a start-up that has a new product. Canoo's goal is to have this 100% made in the U.S., so that is also delaying the project.

"Finally, construction costs are through the roof. So the right financial decision is to wait until these supply-chain issues and construction costs go down and the construction labor market builds."

My favorite take-away from that smorgasbord of excuses is Canoo's goal is to have this "100% made in the U.S., so that is also delaying the project." At face value this will guarantee they'll never build anything. No way can you make 100% of the parts in any one country since even if you have final assembly of every component here, all the components will be full of foreign made parts. I never had much confidence in this company actually doing anything but I've completely given up on these chuckleheads now - this whole thing is sooooo much vaporware and Stitt and his twits bought right into it.

Construction costs aren't going down either.  High cost of everything is our "new normal"

Some good news finally!

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/canoo-shares-soar-premarket-after-walmart-orders-4500-electric-delivery-vehicles-plus-option-for-up-to-10000-more-2022-07-12

I didn't think the Walton's would let this die when they were moving their HQ to Bentonville and setting up a manufacturing operation there.  They still need to scale up before they really need the Pryor plant but this is a definitely a step in the right direction.  Hopefully this helps us land Panasonic as well.

All they're doing is leasing a building in Bentonville and they still need to build it out to make anything there. They're claiming they're going to start small-scale production of vehicles there while waiting on the Pryor factory to be built which, the last I read was Pryor is maybe 4-5 years out now. Seeing as how they don't have enough money in the bank to make it another quarter they're probably hoping the Wal-Mart deal with help them secure some more capital to keep things afloat. But building out the Bentonville location to be a headquarters, design/engineering studio and a mini-factory is gonna take some serious coin - I still don't see this happening. Rivian has $16b cash in the bank, has their own factory, made/sold over 4000 cars last quarter and they're still doing some lay-offs to keep their liquidity healthy. Canoo, on the other hand, is robbing Peter to pay Paul and think they can keep doing that for the next however many years until they magically can make tons of cars a year and become cash flow positive. Good luck with that.

However, yes, I do still hope we land the Panasonic plant but I'm also starting to wonder if Stitt has made a backroom deal with Panasonic to either announce it is happening in Sept/Oct or say it isn't happening in Dec.

Well that's disappointing. 

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/Panasonic-to-build-EV-battery-plant-for-Tesla-in-U.S.-state-of-Kansas (https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/Panasonic-to-build-EV-battery-plant-for-Tesla-in-U.S.-state-of-Kansas)

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/Panasonic-to-build-EV-battery-plant-for-Tesla-in-U.S.-state-of-Kansas

The state absolutely blew it again. Large companies have skipped us over to our immediate south and now immediate north. State leadership has been an abject failure and this will continue until changes are made.

So completely demoralizing.

Panasonic themselves stated that they wanted it to be near the new Texas Tesla facility. Oklahoma did such a horrible job that they were willing to place the plant farther away.

Wow.

Quote from: Jake on July 13, 2022, 12:26:14 PM
Panasonic themselves stated that they wanted it to be near the new Texas Tesla facility. Oklahoma did such a horrible job that they were willing to place the plant farther away.

Wow.

Oklahoma was a longshot for Tesla but it seemed like Panasonic was a good fit.  Hopefully we find out more about their selection process, if it came down to incentives or if it was something else. 

Mid-America is a prime spot for manufacturing, if the state can get its act together they should be able to land these companies.

Beyond disappointing. I don't blame them. The company has a better understanding of all the data than any of us and if they made this choice that means Kansas had a better combination of intrinsic qualities and subsidies. I think we were highly competitive with the subsidies, so once again it is the intrinsic factors of the state that are the issue. Not enough college grads sticking around, poor infrastructure, and a government of incapable lunatics among our many issues.

I'm tired of this. I thought we really had a shot at something... anything. I thought they might split the factory and put one in both locations as previously suggested. I didn't think we would get nothing at all. No Panasonic and no Canoo, and certainly no Tesla.

I'm over being optimistic for Tulsa.

It's one thing to lose to Texas.  It's another thing altogether to lose to KANSAS. 

I think Tulsa still is a bright spot with unlimited potential but the state government has to change for us to really take the next step.

Terrible. No hope going forward for the state. We're moving backwards in every important category. Not sure how much longer I can take it here.

Fundamentally, what needs to change to increase Tulsa's competitiveness? The lack of higher ed learning institutions certainly doesn't help. TU is great and all, but it's so small. Employers look for large pools of talent, something that Tulsa does not naturally have. Maybe that changes slightly with Tulsa Remote?

Quote from: ComeOnBenjals on July 13, 2022, 01:37:40 PM
Fundamentally, what needs to change to increase Tulsa's competitiveness? The lack of higher ed learning institutions certainly doesn't help. TU is great and all, but it's so small. Employers look for large pools of talent, something that Tulsa does not naturally have. Maybe that changes slightly with Tulsa Remote?

I can't speak for our competitiveness at the state level but locally these are things that are generating positive momentum:
- Enhanced quality of life through new community green spaces like the Gathering Place and expanded/enhanced trails along the river and at Turkey Mountain/Keystone Ancient Forest
- Continued revitalization of downtown with more residential, restaurant, nightlife and cultural amenities and expanding existing districts like Brookside and Cherry Street - potential for emerging districts in the Pearl, Kendall-Whittier and Riverview
- Revitalization of key corridors like 11th/Rt 66 into mixed-use destinations
- Building up TU focusing on the growth of its student body, increasing levels of research and interaction with the surrounding community
- Building up OU and OSU - specifically OU's Polytechnic Institute initiative and OSU's growing health center complex downtown
- Fostering the growth of a start up and tech ecosystem downtown - GKFF has been instrumental in laying the seeds for this

Keep working on the items above and the city can stay competitive until the state government is more competent (if ever). 

We can start by avoiding embarrassments like a school board that can't pass basic funding votes because three members think political stunts are more important than public education, and seem to be determined to destroy public education entirely.

Quote from: ComeOnBenjals on July 13, 2022, 01:37:40 PM
Fundamentally, what needs to change to increase Tulsa's competitiveness? The lack of higher ed learning institutions certainly doesn't help. TU is great and all, but it's so small. Employers look for large pools of talent, something that Tulsa does not naturally have. Maybe that changes slightly with Tulsa Remote?

Improving higher education is priority #1 followed closely by K-12 education. Then keeping graduates here through quality of life improvements.

I don't see many major improvements on the horizon towards education though. As other people keep mentioning, the Tulsa schoolboard fiasco and attacks from the governor and others are just adding fuel to the bonfire. OK just had a teacher strike a few years ago and things have only gotten worse as more and more teachers leave the state or the profession entirely. Outside of a few districts in the larger metros, our schools are some of the worst in the nation and keep getting worse.

People pretty much only come to OK at this point because it's (relatively) cheap.

I dunno, I think we are fighting a losing battle here. Maybe OK should regress so that other places can gain. Clearly many of the people that live in this state despise progress and "outsiders". I have pretty much run out of ways to defend why a company should come to Tulsa as opposed to any of the other cities within 4 hours that we consistently lose to. At this point I am ready to leave once I finish my MBA at OSU.

It's already been mentioned, but higher education has to be better in order to attract/retain talent.

Tulsa has done a lot to generate momentum for itself. So has OKC. The largest metros are fighting to push themselves forward but are fighting against a state government that is doing everything in its power to make it hard for them to succeed.

An even average governor/legislature would allow Tulsa to thrive.

The decision almost certainly came down to incentives. Kansas offered significantly more ($1.2 billion) compared to our $700 million. The TIF would've helped close that gap, but it was facing legal challenges.

If the state matched Kansas at $1.2 billion, half of you on this thread would be complaining that we're sacrificing too much for one company lol.

Better luck next time.

Why do we throw money at crypto mining operations and a car manufacturer that may not exist in two years but we're woefully unprepared to lure an actual, established company like Panasonic? This isn't a good look, regardless.

Quote from: Rattle Trap on July 13, 2022, 03:53:56 PM
The decision almost certainly came down to incentives. Kansas offered significantly more ($1.2 billion) compared to our $700 million. The TIF would've helped close that gap, but it was facing legal challenges.

If the state matched Kansas at $1.2 billion, half of you on this thread would be complaining that we're sacrificing too much for one company lol.

Better luck next time.

I wonder if the TIF was a big factor.  Panasonic already had over a billion dollars in incentives from Kansas and a significant chunk of Oklahoma's incentive was dependent on a November ballot vote.  This from the Kansas City Business Journal:

QuoteThis spring, Oklahoma approved a cumulative $848 million in local and state incentives. But a $300 million portion — a 12-year tax increment financing district inside Pryor's MidAmerica Industrial Park — was subject to a referendum petition, seeking to put the district's formation to a ballot vote in November. The petition recently was challenged in court, and a hearing date was not set as of early July.

Quote from: Tulsan on June 20, 2022, 11:48:36 AM
Take it with a grain of salt - because nobody knows - but I heard rumors that Panasonic may split the factory and do both sites to ensure they can fill all positions.

https://nondoc.com/2022/07/13/report-panasonic-selects-kansas-battery-plant/

QuoteMultiple people with knowledge of those negotiations told NonDoc this afternoon that the company has chosen the Kansas site for its newest manufacturing facility. However, those same people said Panasonic has been considering whether to build a second battery plant, which could ultimately be located in Pryor to take advantage of a nearly $700 million rebate incentive created by the Oklahoma Legislature earlier this year.

"Oklahoma is not totally out of it," said an individual closely connected to the state's recruitment efforts on the condition of anonymity. "The electric vehicle market is only growing."

Being the Buckle of the Bible Belt is probably a contributing (not favorable) factor. I would not move to OK now from someplace else but my parents accepted a job transfer here from PA in 1971.  I have friends here and contacts for my activities so I put up with the right wing religious wackos because I don't have another place I want to go to. 

Quote from: Red Arrow on July 14, 2022, 01:18:03 AM
Being the Buckle of the Bible Belt is probably a contributing (not favorable) factor.

This. I wouldn't want to be in business with a state government that is as beholden to the religious right-wingers as Oklahoma is. Plus they've already got abortion banned so what happens when they go after contraception? It would be impossible for a company to hire anyone to move to a state as backwards as that.

Quote from: tulsabug on July 14, 2022, 07:19:50 AM
This. I wouldn't want to be in business with a state government that is as beholden to the religious right-wingers as Oklahoma is. Plus they've already got abortion banned so what happens when they go after contraception? It would be impossible for a company to hire anyone to move to a state as backwards as that.

It doesn't seem to affect Texas, Tennessee, Alabama and other Southern states which are equally right-wing.  Bottom line Oklahoma needs to up its economic development and incentives game.  Continue to build up infrastructure which for many years was woefully behind and still lags surrounding states.  Built-in advantages include a quality manufacturing workforce, reliable and low cost power and water (through GRDA), central location and low cost of living.  In NE Oklahoma there is also the advantage of living in a scenic area near hills, lakes and rivers.

Quote from: SXSW on July 14, 2022, 08:42:14 AM
It doesn't seem to affect Texas, Tennessee, Alabama and other Southern states which are equally right-wing.  Bottom line Oklahoma needs to up its economic development and incentives game.  Continue to build up infrastructure which for many years was woefully behind and still lags surrounding states.  Built-in advantages include a quality manufacturing workforce, reliable and low cost power and water (through GRDA), central location and low cost of living.  In NE Oklahoma there is also the advantage of living in a scenic area near hills, lakes and rivers.

Texas has had too much momentum for too long for it to affect them too much, but the rest of the south outside the big popular pockets (Atlanta, Nashville...) are facing the same realities.

Quote from: Red Arrow on July 14, 2022, 01:18:03 AM
Being the Buckle of the Bible Belt is probably a contributing (not favorable) factor. I would not move to OK now from someplace else but my parents accepted a job transfer here from PA in 1971.  I have friends here and contacts for my activities so I put up with the right wing religious wackos because I don't have another place I want to go to. 

I moved back here in 2008 seeing some momentum and things were trending upwards for some time which is why I'm still here, but if they succeed in literally destroying public education, I can't continue to raise my family here, and the headlines that are already out there about the most recent school board stunt is going to set us back bigtime. Schools are a big part of what draws relocations and we've officially established that we hate public schools. We complain that they aren't very good and complain about any and all solutions to the problems (i.e., money). The future is pretty dire from where I'm sitting.

Quote from: Jake on July 13, 2022, 04:03:48 PM
Why do we throw money at crypto mining operations and a car manufacturer that may not exist in two years but we're woefully unprepared to lure an actual, established company like Panasonic? This isn't a good look, regardless.

Just read that Panasonic has landed in Kansas.  Maybe now Stitt can come up with incentives to get Bell's rebuilt?

Quote from: SXSW on July 14, 2022, 08:42:14 AM
It doesn't seem to affect Texas, Tennessee, Alabama and other Southern states which are equally right-wing.  Bottom line Oklahoma needs to up its economic development and incentives game.  Continue to build up infrastructure which for many years was woefully behind and still lags surrounding states.  Built-in advantages include a quality manufacturing workforce, reliable and low cost power and water (through GRDA), central location and low cost of living.  In NE Oklahoma there is also the advantage of living in a scenic area near hills, lakes and rivers.

Add in Florida, etc. Between Texas, Tennessee, and Florida they are some of the fastest growing states in terms of business relocation and expansion and they are arguably more right-wing than Oklahoma. Texas barely has a functioning power grid for crying out loud.

It's just a convenient excuse to distract people that companies just don't want to move here because of our state government. I'm not a Republican but I don't think this is something to blame them for things like the abortion ban. At the end of the day corporate America doesn't give a s**t, the money they'd spend to pay for workers to seek medical care elsewhere is far far far less than the tax breaks they get from Republicans. Wether this turns into a recruitment issue I don't know.. it's possible but Oklahoma isn't in any different of a position then Tennessee, Texas, Florida. Frankly Oklahoma will be closer to states with legal abortion than any of those other states. I can assure you that Elon Musk gives zero cares about issues like that, he wanted to be in a conservative state that he didn't have to deal with 'liberal' issues like masks, taxes, and any COVID related shutdowns. They didn't pick Austin because it was the liberal star of Texas it just had the workforce and related industries it needed for an HQ.

The reality is our state just plan sucks as economic development. Tulsa should be running circles around metros like Kansas City. We market ourselves terribly and there is a pervasive attitude even within leadership of our region that Tulsa just isn't deserving of big things and it's not possible here. We've really lost the spirit that is needed to be able to get the types of projects Austin and Nashville were able to land that started their trajectory they are on. For example until Arthur came in at the Chamber our ONLY recruitment efforts were to site location companies. That is so a** backwards is laughable. There is a reason we have been in stagnation for so long it is because we never had anyone actually trying in a manner that made a difference. He even talked about it several times of he didn't understand why we weren't just picking up the phone and calling CEO's to tell them about Tulsa. By the time they are working with site location experts they're already too far down the process to make a difference.

Tulsa has got to pivot and sell it's self better. We are smack in the middle of a region that is growing incredibly fast. I've said it so many times but our recruitment area is much larger than just the MSA. The mobility between regions like Tulsa-NWA, Tulsa-OKC, etc. is not bad. If say a Tesla opened here their immediate recruitment areas extend well beyond Tulsa. Oklahoma City, NWA, Ft. Smith, Joplin, Springfield, Wichita, etc. are all essentially within play to pull workers and we have to take advantage of that and that's a 4-5 million + population area that Tulsa is closer to get to than KC, St. Louis, Dallas, etc. You can easily build out recruitment pipelines from Oklahoma State, Univ of Oklahoma, Wichita State, Univ of Arkansas, Missouri State, etc. There is not a lack of talent in this region, it's just a bit more fragmented than an area like Austin, Denver, Nashville. You can't tell me that a college student at the Univ of Arkansas that was offered a job at a Tesla HQ in Tulsa wouldn't move here? Please. We have assets to leverage we just don't. It's incredibly frustrating.

I wouldn't be surprised if Panasonic is splitting the facility.

Why wouldn't they just build a $2-2.5 billion plant in each state instead of one $5 billion plant?

You'd get an extra $1 billion in incentives because the facility sizes are still large enough to qualify for the incentives in both areas...

I wouldn't be surprised if the announcement was meant to destroy the possibility of a legal challenge to the TIF and then once that's past they'll announce something. Like oh hey we decided to build a 'second' facility in the US, when in reality is just a splitting of the original proposal. There's already been hints of that out there. Disappointing for sure, but hopeful that is what is happening behind closed doors.

Quote from: LandArchPoke on July 14, 2022, 10:37:12 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if Panasonic is splitting the facility.

Why wouldn't they just build a $2-2.5 billion plant in each state instead of one $5 billion plant?

You'd get an extra $1 billion in incentives because the facility sizes are still large enough to qualify for the incentives in both areas...

I wouldn't be surprised if the announcement was meant to destroy the possibility of a legal challenge to the TIF and then once that's past they'll announce something. Like oh hey we decided to build a 'second' facility in the US, when in reality is just a splitting of the original proposal. There's already been hints of that out there. Disappointing for sure, but hopeful that is what is happening behind closed doors.

You may be correct about the split.  Even if Panasonic doesn't locate a 2nd facility in Pryor, there are other well-heeled suitors that are very interested in placing a similar facility in the that location. 

Quote from: LandArchPoke on July 14, 2022, 10:33:16 AM
Add in Florida, etc. Between Texas, Tennessee, and Florida they are some of the fastest growing states in terms of business relocation and expansion and they are arguably more right-wing than Oklahoma. Texas barely has a functioning power grid for crying out loud.

It's just a convenient excuse to distract people that companies just don't want to move here because of our state government. I'm not a Republican but I don't think this is something to blame them for things like the abortion ban. At the end of the day corporate America doesn't give a s**t, the money they'd spend to pay for workers to seek medical care elsewhere is far far far less than the tax breaks they get from Republicans. Wether this turns into a recruitment issue I don't know.. it's possible but Oklahoma isn't in any different of a position then Tennessee, Texas, Florida. Frankly Oklahoma will be closer to states with legal abortion than any of those other states. I can assure you that Elon Musk gives zero cares about issues like that, he wanted to be in a conservative state that he didn't have to deal with 'liberal' issues like masks, taxes, and any COVID related shutdowns. They didn't pick Austin because it was the liberal star of Texas it just had the workforce and related industries it needed for an HQ.

The reality is our state just plan sucks as economic development. Tulsa should be running circles around metros like Kansas City. We market ourselves terribly and there is a pervasive attitude even within leadership of our region that Tulsa just isn't deserving of big things and it's not possible here. We've really lost the spirit that is needed to be able to get the types of projects Austin and Nashville were able to land that started their trajectory they are on. For example until Arthur came in at the Chamber our ONLY recruitment efforts were to site location companies. That is so a** backwards is laughable. There is a reason we have been in stagnation for so long it is because we never had anyone actually trying in a manner that made a difference. He even talked about it several times of he didn't understand why we weren't just picking up the phone and calling CEO's to tell them about Tulsa. By the time they are working with site location experts they're already too far down the process to make a difference.

Tulsa has got to pivot and sell it's self better. We are smack in the middle of a region that is growing incredibly fast. I've said it so many times but our recruitment area is much larger than just the MSA. The mobility between regions like Tulsa-NWA, Tulsa-OKC, etc. is not bad. If say a Tesla opened here their immediate recruitment areas extend well beyond Tulsa. Oklahoma City, NWA, Ft. Smith, Joplin, Springfield, Wichita, etc. are all essentially within play to pull workers and we have to take advantage of that and that's a 4-5 million + population area that Tulsa is closer to get to than KC, St. Louis, Dallas, etc. You can easily build out recruitment pipelines from Oklahoma State, Univ of Oklahoma, Wichita State, Univ of Arkansas, Missouri State, etc. There is not a lack of talent in this region, it's just a bit more fragmented than an area like Austin, Denver, Nashville. You can't tell me that a college student at the Univ of Arkansas that was offered a job at a Tesla HQ in Tulsa wouldn't move here? Please. We have assets to leverage we just don't. It's incredibly frustrating.

Or, you know, it's all of the above. I'm sure Panasonic looked at every angle - you have to when that much money is in play. They had to look at a state that was physically in the right place, was a state where you could find the needed workers plus one where people would be willing to move to, plus tax incentives, and on and on and on. I don't feel bad when we lose to Texas only because they often get things due to location that we can't compete on but, damn, Kansas? And one of the reasons that Panasonic chose Kansas because of it's proximity to Texas? Ouch! We just suck. So it's basically Texas, irrelevant wasteland, and then Kansas. fml

Quote from: AdamsHall on July 14, 2022, 02:27:10 PM
You may be correct about the split.  Even if Panasonic doesn't locate a 2nd facility in Pryor, there are other well-heeled suitors that are very interested in placing a similar facility in the that location. 

This is correct. Someone's going to be building batteries in Pryor. That's why the Governor's office sounds so confident... the combination of hydro power, open land with infrastructure, and state subsidies is too enticing. People need to chill.

So I believe you, but why does the hydropower matter? They have a coal + gas plant right there as well. And I'm pretty sure that coal plant can provide more power than the entire hydro network can.

Quote from: buffalodan on July 14, 2022, 09:52:10 PM
So I believe you, but why does the hydropower matter? They have a coal + gas plant right there as well. And I'm pretty sure that coal plant can provide more power than the entire hydro network can.

Google ESG. Making batteries can be dirty work and hese companies want to show their shareholders that their massive power-sucking factories are carbon neutral.

The Tulsa Regional Chamber of Commerce says Oklahoma's abortion and transgender laws have out-of-state companies choosing to not come to Oklahoma and is causing problems for existing Oklahoma companies looking to hire out-of-state employees.

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/state-laws-on-abortion-transgender-issues-have-companies-balking-on-coming-to-oklahoma-development-official/article_a2e516de-039f-11ed-b3a8-a7c7ba3a8b66.html#tracking-source=home-top-story

aaaaaand that soulless turd Lankford blocked unanimous consent on a bill guaranteeing the right to interstate travel to have an abortion. So yea - build your factory here where women are not only considered second-class citizens but also can be legally trapped from leaving the state. Maybe we can get "Irrelevant Wasteland" on to our license plates.

https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/govt-and-politics/watch-now-oklahoma-sen-lankford-blocks-bill-guaranteeing-interstate-travel-for-abortion/article_25bd0880-03ac-11ed-bb13-c395c0f97687.html

Quote from: tulsabug on July 15, 2022, 06:30:55 AM
The Tulsa Regional Chamber of Commerce says Oklahoma's abortion and transgender laws have out-of-state companies choosing to not come to Oklahoma and is causing problems for existing Oklahoma companies looking to hire out-of-state employees.

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/state-laws-on-abortion-transgender-issues-have-companies-balking-on-coming-to-oklahoma-development-official/article_a2e516de-039f-11ed-b3a8-a7c7ba3a8b66.html#tracking-source=home-top-story

I promise you at the end of the day no serious company or individual is going to make a decision based on something like an abortion or bathroom law. A multi billion dollar company is not going to approach shareholders to tell them they couldn't expand to "x" state that provided low energy costs, cheap land, renewable energy, and a billion dollars in tax incentives just because said state has certain social law.

The housing market here hasn't slown down at all. You know who is buying these houses? People from other states. 30 year old doctors, 20 year old engineers, etc. All come here because they can buy big houses for half the price of what they'd pay elsewhere. Inflation is historic and people's main goal is to find a way or place they can afford to live comfortably.

Also, if a few companies bail out because our state no longer allows infanticide to be legal, then so be it.

Quote from: Rattle Trap on July 15, 2022, 08:02:05 AM
I promise you at the end of the day no serious company or individual is going to make a decision based on something like an abortion or bathroom law. A multi billion dollar company is not going to approach shareholders to tell them they couldn't expand to "x" state that provided low energy costs, cheap land, renewable energy, and a billion dollars in tax incentives just because said state has certain social law.

The housing market here hasn't slown down at all. You know who is buying these houses? People from other states. 30 year old doctors, 20 year old engineers, etc. All come here because they can buy big houses for half the price of what they'd pay elsewhere. Inflation is historic and people's main goal is to find a way or place they can afford to live comfortably.

Also, if a few companies bail out because our state no longer allows infanticide to be legal, then so be it.

Doesn't matter to them if they can buy half price house.  When they are making 1/4 price wages.

More of the ones moving here are mid level people, a few years older than that, who had the good luck to find a job here or their company moved them here to a smaller branch facility.  And most of the places they come from, they have cashed out of a mid-sized house and find they can buy a McMansion here for that money.

And  then you have the absolute Clown Show of Stitt, Lankford, Inhofe, Mullin, Dahm...  

I guess if they like criminal activity, they would move here to be close to Stitt.  

If they feel that 13 is the proper age of consent for sex, they would love having their young daughters around Lankford's culture.  


And let's not forget turnpikes - even though we love to deny it, they are just one more factor in avoiding Oklahoma.  If you ever get the chance to talk to a bunch of truckers, you will be amazed how many will literally drive around OK just to avoid turnpike tolls.    And yeah, even with the higher diesel, there are some good alternate routes to OK turnpikes.

You are deluding yourself if you think these things don't enter into it - even if the C-suite could care less, they will have worker bees who do care about stuff like that.   Plus a lot of these potential companies already have some presence in the state and there is information interchange going on all the time between locals and national people.  We are considered, at best, a quiet little backwater with low wages, government that is friendly, but really is a dead-end with nothing to do.  Just look at the type of conventions and conferences we get.  Versus places with "big" attractions.


And if you still believe, "A multi billion dollar company is not going to approach shareholders to tell them they couldn't expand to "x" state that provided low energy costs, cheap land, renewable energy, and a billion dollars in tax incentives just because said state has certain social law."...

Then why do you think it ain't happening??

Quote from: LandArchPoke on July 14, 2022, 10:33:16 AM

Add in Florida, etc. Between Texas, Tennessee, and Florida they are some of the fastest growing states in terms of business relocation and expansion and they are arguably more right-wing than Oklahoma. Texas barely has a functioning power grid for crying out loud.

The reality is our state just plan sucks as economic development.

Don't forget we have nothing comparable to the attractions that each of those has. 

TX.  Austin, Dallas, Houston.  Six Flags!!   And while their grid sucks, it does have 25% (and growing) coming from wind so it will improve - in spite of their sorry state government.


TN.  Music!  Everywhere!   And the most visited National Park in the US.


FL.  The Mouse.   At least for now...maybe we can get Disney World to move here!!??   And beaches!


And if you were somewhere in the US, including here in OK, and were hosting a conference...where would you go??  Tulsa?  OKC?   Or somewhere like Orlando, Anaheim, Dallas, Austin?  Nashville! 

Yea - I have a hard time showing any reason to actually put something in Oklahoma as opposed to anywhere else. Yes other states have some of the same problems and batshiat crazy government officials but none seem to put it altogether like a nice little fruit basket with a bow on top like Oklahoma does. Let's be totally honest here - the only use large businesses have for Oklahoma is to get counter-bids so they have something to play against in the state they actually want to put their factory. That being said I can't imagine they can even use us for that for much longer - people are gonna wise-up. "Oklahoma is offering an incentive package to you? Who would want to put a factory in that irrelevant wasteland? Nobody does!"

Tulsa and OKC just need to scrap the suburbs and then break away from Oklahoma - become East and West Sequoyah.

Quote from: tulsabug on July 15, 2022, 11:45:25 AM
Yea - I have a hard time showing any reason to actually put something in Oklahoma as opposed to anywhere else. Yes other states have some of the same problems and batshiat crazy government officials but none seem to put it altogether like a nice little fruit basket with a bow on top like Oklahoma does. Let's be totally honest here - the only use large businesses have for Oklahoma is to get counter-bids so they have something to play against in the state they actually want to put their factory. That being said I can't imagine they can even use us for that for much longer - people are gonna wise-up. "Oklahoma is offering an incentive package to you? Who would want to put a factory in that irrelevant wasteland? Nobody does!"

Tulsa and OKC just need to scrap the suburbs and then break away from Oklahoma - become East and West Sequoyah.

I get people feel this way... but I mean come on do you really think Oklahoma is that much worse than say Kansas? What about Arkansas, Ohio, Kentucky, Indiana, Alabama, etc. You think Huckabee is going to be less embarrassing than Stitt? Frankly I'd take Stitt over her any day, he at least runs a business even though he's corrupt. I think this election cycle's races in Oklahoma are going to be closer than many think and I hope Dems/Ind. actually go vote and we get someone like Joy, etc. in as leadership to counter the legislature a bit. People just need to stop bemoaning themselves and go vote.  

Dallas has absolutely nothing interesting to offer, it's that decades ago they made better infrastructure investments than Tulsa/OKC did with building DFW and other things. I get if someone picks Denver for the mountains or say Florida because of the ocean/beach but what does Dallas offer that Tulsa couldn't recreate? Nothing. I can assure you that after living there for a while. Frankly Dallas is probably 40% Oklahomans who would rather move back if they could and could keep their job.

Back prior to DFW, etc. Tulsa and Dallas weren't on too different of trajectories we just stopped investing in ourselves. They made critical upgrades that allowed DFW to become a hub and it wasn't really until about 10-ish years ago that they really started to be able to pick off headquarters and major expansions. DFW used to be considered the 'back office headquarters of america'. They slowly built up a workforce through that even if it wasn't fancy, expanded universities, and built up infrastructure like DFW and hit a tipping point and now it's a waterfall. Dallas isn't an interesting or great city, their leadership put in the work to get them to this point and were incredibly aggressive in business expansions/relocation. Dallas was turned down on many occasions for big expansions over the decades and each time that happened they learned from it. Something Tulsa has yet to really do - I can assure you it has nothing to do with our Republican leadership and how embarrassing they are because they're all over the US, Oklahoma is not unique in that. Dallas even had a committee set up after Amazon to figure out how to not let that happen again. A city/region that has a new HQ relocation every month it seems still cared enough to look at what they don't have that Amazon passed them over for Virginia and are making strategic action items to fix those deficiencies now. I can bet you Tulsa/regional leadership isn't doing that with Panasonic, Tesla, etc. People know what we need to do, but there's no strategic plan/action items to get everyone on the same boat. It's pretty much GKFF doing whatever they want, but at some point everyone has to get on the boat and row the same way.  

I still believe the biggest barrier to Tulsa succeeding is the mindset of not thinking big enough and general apathy amongst our population. We market ourselves poorly and we are not aggressive enough in business recruitment. That is 100% of the reason we are getting passed over.

Frankly it wouldn't take very long for Oklahoma to become a battle ground state if we could land a handful of good corporate expansions. The Dem/Independent voter difference to Republicans is not as large as many would think, it's just than voter turnout and excitement especially for non-Republicans is awful. That's been by design on the Republican side.

Heck, Boebert in Colorado is 10x more of an embarrassment than any single one of our national leadership and Colorado is a 'liberal mecca' - I don't think she is scaring off investment in Colorado lol. Same reason Lankford or any of our other embarrassments aren't either. Colorado wasn't that different than Oklahoma back 20 years ago until Denver exploded in population and shifted the entire state from red, to purple, to now mostly solid blue. How was Denver able to recruit so many to move there even with crazy leadership back in the day? If someone really wanted to California, Seattle, etc. were all way more liberal and offered mountains and ocean. Denver built a massive airport and made major investments in infrastructure, universities, etc. and look at where they are now. The amount of people that lived in the front range back then wasn't bigger than the I-44/412 corridor from OKC-Tulsa-NWA now. Denver just decided it was going to be the hub of the region, and until Tulsa decides to get off it's donkey and be the hub and make investments we are just going to keep getting passed by and have OKC/NWA eat our lunch with the group who are willing to invest in this region. 

Corporate America does not care about politics what so ever. If they did, why are they still donating so much to the Republican party? Toyota is one of the biggest donors to the insurrections now and they're HQed in Plano. You think they care? Nope. So our politics didn't scare Toyota USA HQ away from Oklahoma I can assure you that. They definitely didn't pick Plano or Dallas because it's some liberal mecca either. There is a specific recruitment team in Collin County that goes to California and other states to tell CEO's about Jesus and how Collin County has the best churches and is God's suburban paradise - I'm not joking. Yet if something like that happened in Oklahoma people who claim it's running off business investment. It's not.

Our issues are not political no matter how embarrassing they are in this state. Until we focus on the issues that are actually causing us to get passed over we'll be stuck in the same spot for another decade or two.  

^ Good points.  As I said before Tulsa needs to just keep investing in the things we are already investing in to keep the momentum that has already been building and we'll land one of these big developments.   

Quote from: LandArchPoke on July 15, 2022, 12:37:04 PM
I get people feel this way... but I mean come on do you really think Oklahoma is that much worse than say Kansas? What about Arkansas, Ohio, Kentucky, Indiana, Alabama, etc. You think Huckabee is going to be less embarrassing than Stitt? Frankly I'd take Stitt over her any day, he at least runs a business even though he's corrupt. I think this election cycle's races in Oklahoma are going to be closer than many think and I hope Dems/Ind. actually go vote and we get someone like Joy, etc. in as leadership to counter the legislature a bit. People just need to stop bemoaning themselves and go vote.  


I still believe the biggest barrier to Tulsa succeeding is the mindset of not thinking big enough and general apathy amongst our population. We market ourselves poorly and we are not aggressive enough in business recruitment. That is 100% of the reason we are getting passed over.

Frankly it wouldn't take very long for Oklahoma to become a battle ground state if we could land a handful of good corporate expansions. The Dem/Independent voter difference to Republicans is not as large as many would think, it's just than voter turnout and excitement especially for non-Republicans is awful. That's been by design on the Republican side.


Corporate America does not care about politics what so ever. If they did, why are they still donating so much to the Republican party? Toyota is one of the biggest donors to the insurrections now and they're HQed in Plano. You think they care? Nope. So our politics didn't scare Toyota USA HQ away from Oklahoma I can assure you that. They definitely didn't pick Plano or Dallas because it's some liberal mecca either. There is a specific recruitment team in Collin County that goes to California and other states to tell CEO's about Jesus and how Collin County has the best churches and is God's suburban paradise - I'm not joking. Yet if something like that happened in Oklahoma people who claim it's running off business investment. It's not.

The reasons we don't do better is because we choose NOT to do better!

In no particular order;

Education
Infrastructure
Health

And we are ALWAYS at the bottom on all of them.  No matter what.

Maybe Oklahoma would do better if Gov Stitt made advertisements for sleep medicine.

Ronald Reagan said he didn't leave the Democratic Party, the Democratic Party left him.  I am kind of feeling the same way about the Republican Party, at least in this part of the USA.

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on July 15, 2022, 08:45:09 PM


The reasons we don't do better is because we choose NOT to do better!

In no particular order;

Education
Infrastructure
Health

And we are ALWAYS at the bottom on all of them.  No matter what.

Infrastructure I feel is probably one of the biggest followed closely by education.

2 things Texas has done that helped separate Dallas from places like Tulsa and other competition back decades ago.

Establishing dedicated funding through oil revenues for the universities. A&M and UT are what they are because of that, if OSU and OU had that type of dedicated funding we would have a gold mine of talent coming through the state.

They made key infrastructure investments with things like hub airports. They are now on the verge of having the first privately operated high-speed rail system in the US. Their highway and other infrastructure investments have been above and beyond other states. However, they are sitting on a massive debt bomb because of this, that if they have any hick-up in growth over the next decade or two could likely lead them into bankruptcy without massive tax increases.

The two together were the backbone to positioning them as a top tier business relocation state. Obviously the addition of no income tax and other factors play a role too but you can have all the incentives and other BS you want, but if you don't have the infrastructure to support the business or people to support the business the rest is irrelevant.

OU Poly I think could be a game changer for Tulsa long-term. OSU I hope follows with a similar tech focused campus in Tulsa. Build out more grad school programs.

We have got to figure out how to get more direct flights into TUL. Why not have a master plan for a major expansion of TUL and go recruit an airline like Frontier or something to make TUL a hub or focus city. Frontier is kind of like an unwanted third wheel at Denver, why not incentivize them to move here? Throw everything in the dang book at them. Or go after JetBlue, etc. - someone who is operating at hubs that are well over capacity already and have majors already taking up most of the resources at the hub that could use a middle America presence. The majority of passengers who fly through Denver are no locals and not people visiting Colorado. Same with Salt Lake, etc. They are hubs because they made the investment in the facilities to be one. The entire Salt Lake region is a lot smaller than the OKC-Tulsa-NWA region. 

Why our city leadership allows AA to take advantage of us and then not even make them increase air service here is our biggest wasted opportunity infrastructure wise. We should at least require them as part of a lease agreement to maintain flights to every single on of their hubs. Why do we not have direct service to Miami, etc.? And for as much money as we give them and they can't give us 1-2 flights a day to all their hubs/focus cities? Give me a break. This is weak leadership from the city thinking we don't deserve or can't ask for things like this because we should just gravel and be thankful they are even here.

Also, for everything I've said I do think we should hold the Republican's feet to the fire. They do have fault in this for being lazy and not prioritizing economic development. They waited way too long to pass our economic packages because they were wasting time with other bills they didn't need to be doing and most of those were purely 'political' bills. The Kansas legislature passed their economics package first thing then moved on to the crazy stuff while we did the opposite. We did piss Panasonic off to the point Stitt had to have that press conference and force the legislature to get off their as* and pass it. I think that was the moment in time we lost the deal when that took so long and as soon as that finally passed a lawsuit was filed over the TIF. Their board needed to make an announcement on location and if we had taken care of business when the legislature first went into sessions we might be looking at a very different situation. But that goes back to the point that Oklahoma never has taken economic development seriously while our neighbors prioritize it and then circle back to the crazy shi*.

I hate to see some many people who love Tulsa get so frustrated and want to leave. I hope people don't, it just makes it worse. If more people stick around and advocate for things the better off we are. Just keep states like Colorado in mind, it's not impossible to change the dynamics of this state. We have to get rid of apathy and get people engaged. It wouldn't take much of an uptick in population growth between both OKC and Tulsa to switch the politics of the state - it really wasn't that long ago that we have a Democrat as a Governor. OKC used to be one of the most conservative bigger cities in the US and that is no where near the case anymore, and a lot of that comes down to population growth over the last 10-15 years that has really changed the political dynamics of that area. The more people that leave and give up the worse it gets, I know it sucks and is frustrating but that's what they are hoping happens - don't let it.    

^ Agree with AA, though they have stepped it up recently at TUL.  Nonstop flights to DFW, Austin, Phoenix, Los Angeles, Chicago, Charlotte, Washington DC and Miami (Sat only).  Starting New York LGA this November.  The only hub they won't serve is Philadelphia.  Could use more frequency though.

Oh look - went to get a replacement social security card online but just found out Oklahoma hasn't linked their driver's license database to the Feds. Oklahoma is only one of 7 states that hasn't done it. Texas, Kansas, & Missouri have. Heck - every state in the South except Alabama has but no, not "ain't gonna tell me what to do" Oklahoma. Every time I've had to deal with the state for our business I've found they are disorganized, confused, behind the times, and generally apathetic to being professional. They're right on the ball with serving the religious right but for businesses they're worthless. I can't imagine Panasonic, who really needed a well-functioning bureaucracy to deal with all the issues of building a large factory here was remotely impressed with the amateur hour they ran into. Now - I don't have any proof of this - just extrapolating from my own experience but I'm willing to bet we can tag that on to the list of reasons Oklahoma gets overlooked.

That didn't seem to dissuade Google from investing billions of dollars in Oklahoma.  But I do think we all agree the state (and Tulsa) could do better in economic development and general sophistication.  Tulsa finally has a team dedicated to it which is a welcome change.  Both need to have better social media presence.  David Holt, the OKC Mayor, is well liked by Democrats and Republicans and does a fantastic job promoting OKC on social media.  GT Bynum, Arthur Jackson, David Stewart/MAIP, et al need to be constantly promoting on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc

https://www.pcmag.com/news/panasonic-in-talks-to-build-4-billion-oklahoma-ev-battery-plant

Quote from: Jake on August 26, 2022, 09:59:12 AM
https://www.pcmag.com/news/panasonic-in-talks-to-build-4-billion-oklahoma-ev-battery-plant

I believe the time to challenge the TIF to get it on the ballot is past, so not surprised this has resurfaced. Matt Swift, the one Commissioner who voted no and didn't want the TIF or the plant there lost his election too this week. Not sure if his opponent that one is pro TIF though but did find that interesting.

There were always rumors of two plants but many thought they would both be at Sunflower in Kansas.  One in Kansas and another in Oklahoma makes sense though.

Quote from: SXSW on August 26, 2022, 10:05:58 PM
There were always rumors of two plants but many thought they would both be at Sunflower in Kansas.  One in Kansas and another in Oklahoma makes sense though.

This with Canoo looking more and more real, is a game changer.

Quote from: SXSW on July 16, 2022, 09:25:49 PM
That didn't seem to dissuade Google from investing billions of dollars in Oklahoma.  But I do think we all agree the state (and Tulsa) could do better in economic development and general sophistication.  Tulsa finally has a team dedicated to it which is a welcome change.  Both need to have better social media presence.  David Holt, the OKC Mayor, is well liked by Democrats and Republicans and does a fantastic job promoting OKC on social media.  GT Bynum, Arthur Jackson, David Stewart/MAIP, et al need to be constantly promoting on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc

Cheap electricity for those big power sucking boxes they build.  I have done some modest sized motor testing in the past - 2,000 to 3,000 HP electric motors - and was able to get electricity for about 1.5 cents per KWh during off times, after about 5 pm.   Of course, prime time afternoon was several dollars per KWh under those programs, but just tested at night. 

Google is getting a great electric deal, 24/7, for that big box!!  And they don't need that many people there, and the ones they have are technical but not being paid big city wages either.

Quote from: SXSW on August 26, 2022, 10:05:58 PM
There were always rumors of two plants but many thought they would both be at Sunflower in Kansas.  One in Kansas and another in Oklahoma makes sense though.

TULSA, Okla. — Panasonic Holdings Corp, a Tesla supplier, is in discussions to build an additional battery plant in the U.S. and the company is looking at Oklahoma again, The Wall Street Journal reports.

The EV battery plant would be roughly $4 billion, though there are no guarantees that an agreement will be reached.

In July, Panasonic chose Kansas for their new plant, despite Oklahoma offering up to $700 million in rebates.
Kansas and Oklahoma are convenient locations for the battery plants because of their close proximity to Tesla's factory in Austin, Texas.

lol what a twist. I will be amazed if we actually get something, but I'm not holding my breath anymore. The state will find a way to screw it up, and even if it gets built it will probably be smaller and have less of an impact than previously touted. Anything built by Panasonic would be awesome for the state and our region though.

I'm sure they want all the previously offered incentives and more though, even if we aren't competing anymore.

Quote from: shavethewhales on August 27, 2022, 10:45:40 AM
lol what a twist. I will be amazed if we actually get something, but I'm not holding my breath anymore. The state will find a way to screw it up, and even if it gets built it will probably be smaller and have less of an impact than previously touted. Anything built by Panasonic would be awesome for the state and our region though.

I'm sure they want all the previously offered incentives and more though, even if we aren't competing anymore.

As soon as the rumors started months ago about splitting the facility before the official announcement of locating in Kansas I figured this is what would happen.

Frankly I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being a $2 billion investment in both locations and being $4 billion total (even though they are publicly saying $4 billion in each which was the original plan with '1 plant'). I believe the requirements to get the incentives in both Kansas and Oklahoma were minimum investment of $1 billion and 1,000 ish jobs at certain pay levels.

If that's the case why would you not split it and instead of getting $1 billion in incentives for 1 $4 billion plant you're getting nearly $2 billion in incentives for 2, $2 billion plants. Plus you spread out your labor risks - instead of trying to hire 4-5 thousand in one location you are hiring 2 ish thousand in 2 locations. When you're talking this large of scale splitting the facility works, you wouldn't lose much efficiency on construction, labor, operational management, etc. to have two locations versus one and you'd get double the financial incentive benefits.

The Kansas announcement was all to fool people to be honest. It sucked any momentum from the anti-TIF and anti foreign company investment sentiment coming out of a small group... and magically after the county commissioner who started that lost last week and any chance of a TIF challenge past you see this in the press.

From the Tulsa World regarding the Mayes County TIF:

QuoteMayes County commissioners earlier this year approved a 12-year, $300 million tax increment financing district (TIF) in anticipation of the project. Challenged in court, that TIF now will be placed on the November ballot for voters to decide, Tom Sawyer, the attorney who spearheaded that effort, said Monday in an email.

What are the odds voters approve this?

Tulsa was one of 21 metro regions selected for development of an Advanced Mobility Cluster that will include a research center at OSU-Tulsa.  This focuses on unmanned aerial systems but also ties into the developing EV manufacturing cluster.  Interesting that the region has 3 of the 21 selected; Oklahoma City was one for its life sciences sector and Wichita was another for aerospace.

https://tulsaworld.com/business/local/39-million-in-federal-funding-coming-for-advanced-mobility-programs-in-tulsa-area/article_bb46c724-2a08-11ed-b1fe-23065828ddab.html?utm_campaign=snd-autopilot&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook_Tulsa_World_Work_&_Money&fbclid=IwAR32CjMCh79tHKoQryiWF3R9jsWsG-ZuK7GPHWB4lC3N4PYYhVtJAP2tIW4 (https://tulsaworld.com/business/local/39-million-in-federal-funding-coming-for-advanced-mobility-programs-in-tulsa-area/article_bb46c724-2a08-11ed-b1fe-23065828ddab.html?utm_campaign=snd-autopilot&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook_Tulsa_World_Work_&_Money&fbclid=IwAR32CjMCh79tHKoQryiWF3R9jsWsG-ZuK7GPHWB4lC3N4PYYhVtJAP2tIW4)

Quote from: SXSW on September 02, 2022, 09:05:41 AM
Tulsa was one of 21 metro regions selected for development of an Advanced Mobility Cluster that will include a research center at OSU-Tulsa.  This focuses on unmanned aerial systems but also ties into the developing EV manufacturing cluster.  Interesting that the region has 3 of the 21 selected; Oklahoma City was one for its life sciences sector and Wichita was another for aerospace.

https://tulsaworld.com/business/local/39-million-in-federal-funding-coming-for-advanced-mobility-programs-in-tulsa-area/article_bb46c724-2a08-11ed-b1fe-23065828ddab.html?utm_campaign=snd-autopilot&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook_Tulsa_World_Work_&_Money&fbclid=IwAR32CjMCh79tHKoQryiWF3R9jsWsG-ZuK7GPHWB4lC3N4PYYhVtJAP2tIW4 (https://tulsaworld.com/business/local/39-million-in-federal-funding-coming-for-advanced-mobility-programs-in-tulsa-area/article_bb46c724-2a08-11ed-b1fe-23065828ddab.html?utm_campaign=snd-autopilot&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook_Tulsa_World_Work_&_Money&fbclid=IwAR32CjMCh79tHKoQryiWF3R9jsWsG-ZuK7GPHWB4lC3N4PYYhVtJAP2tIW4)

Tulsa and Wichita need to team up more often on stuff - I'd like to see Tulsa start doing what they are with NWA. Between the two MSA's there's a lot of Aerospace talent and potential.

Could use better transportation connections to that area. Upgrade US 75 through Bartlesville and then have it spur off northwest to Wichita.  Really it would be nice to pursue this as a long-term I-45 corridor that could eventually go all the way up from Dallas to Wichita.

Establish something similar to Mid-America in Bartlesville - while it's not exactly half way between the two regions it's fairly close and could help spur a lot of growth in South Kansas around Coffeyville, Caney, Independence as well.

Quote from: LandArchPoke on September 02, 2022, 11:05:47 AM
Tulsa and Wichita need to team up more often on stuff - I'd like to see Tulsa start doing what they are with NWA. Between the two MSA's there's a lot of Aerospace talent and potential.

Could use better transportation connections to that area. Upgrade US 75 through Bartlesville and then have it spur off northwest to Wichita.  Really it would be nice to pursue this as a long-term I-45 corridor that could eventually go all the way up from Dallas to Wichita.

Establish something similar to Mid-America in Bartlesville - while it's not exactly half way between the two regions it's fairly close and could help spur a lot of growth in South Kansas around Coffeyville, Caney, Independence as well.

There were talks long ago about developing an "aerospace triangle" linking OKC, Tulsa and Wichita.  I don't think anything ever came of it though.

https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/1989/11/21/city-in-new-aerospace-triangle/62587556007/ (https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/1989/11/21/city-in-new-aerospace-triangle/62587556007/)

Quote from: LandArchPoke on September 02, 2022, 11:05:47 AM
Could use better transportation connections to that area. Upgrade US 75 through Bartlesville and then have it spur off northwest to Wichita.  Really it would be nice to pursue this as a long-term I-45 corridor that could eventually go all the way up from Dallas to Wichita.

Interesting you mention this. I heard a rumor recently of renewed OTA interest in the David Walters era "Osage Turnpike" extending NW from the northern terminus of the LL Tisdale, through Skiatook and eventually toward the KS border. Anyone else hear anything of this?

Quote from: tulsamatt on September 05, 2022, 05:23:54 PM
Interesting you mention this. I heard a rumor recently of renewed OTA interest in the David Walters era "Osage Turnpike" extending NW from the northern terminus of the LL Tisdale, through Skiatook and eventually toward the KS border. Anyone else hear anything of this?

Just what I always wanted, another turnpike connecting to Tulsa.

.

I saw my first Rivian pickup truck last week.  Not bad....not great.

Was in Tennessee.

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on September 07, 2022, 08:22:46 PM
.

I saw my first Rivian pickup truck last week.  Not bad....not great.

Was in Tennessee.

I've seen Rivian vans in Tulsa. Look at your Amazon delivery truck, some of them are Rivian.

(https://www.teslarati.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/amazon-rivian-van-tulsa-ok-524x699.jpg)

https://www.teslarati.com/amazon-rivian-electric-delivery-van-tulsa-oklahoma/

I've seen a white white R1T rolling around midtown

(https://www.bughaus.com/Tulsanow/RIVIAN.jpg)

Quote from: tulsabug on September 10, 2022, 08:47:06 AM
I've seen a white white R1T rolling around midtown

(https://www.bughaus.com/Tulsanow/RIVIAN.jpg)

One I saw was black and I thought the A/C is gonna drain that puppy fast!

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on September 11, 2022, 08:11:20 PM

One I saw was black and I thought the A/C is gonna drain that puppy fast!

Probably the reason there are so many white Chevy Suburbans in Texas.  Black vehicle might be welcome in the northern states in winter.

https://www.thestreet.com/investing/huge-rental-company-places-big-order-with-tesla-rival?puc=yahoo&cm_ven=YAHOO (https://www.thestreet.com/investing/huge-rental-company-places-big-order-with-tesla-rival?puc=yahoo&cm_ven=YAHOO)

Two big new orders in the last two weeks.

Zeeba (slightly under 5,000 total), 3,000 by end of 2024 is the most recent.

Kingbee ordered 9,000 binding with an option for up to 18,600 a little over a week ago.

That's about 10,000 vehicles they'll have to produce in the next 24 months with the 4,500 initial orders for Walmart (previous order a while back).

All a pretty big deal that could make Canoo one of the more viable EV start ups if they keep getting traction. The delivery market really is a massive opportunity and the only other legit EV competitor is Rivian who is tied up by Amazon for the most part so Canoo can really go as far as management can take them. If they can get a few more solid orders like these two the odds of them going bankrupt get slimmer and slimmer. Especially now that they have outsourced manufacturing for the first orders. Not that great for Oklahoma but I'd rather them not rush the Pryor factory and get their footing solid first.

Electric vehicle start-up company Canoo plans to build its own EV battery module manufacturing facility at Mid-America Industrial Park in Pryor, the company announced Wednesday.

"We are accelerating our hiring plans in Pryor with the establishment of our EV battery module manufacturing facility, which will produce our proprietary battery modules, energy management system and thermal control technology for our MPP (multipurpose) platform," Canoo Chairman and CEO Tony Aquila said in a statement. Aquila said the plant represents the first building block for the company's production ramp strategy.

Canoo announced a year ago that it intends to provide at least 1,500 jobs by building a factory with 3 million-plus square feet of space at MAIP. Aquila said earlier this year that a plant capable of producing 300,000 vehicles annually could be operational at the industrial park by 2024.

MAIP CEO David Stewart said the battery facility will result in about 200 jobs.
"The location (of the battery facility) has been strategically selected due to its proximity to our battery cell partner Panasonic and our future mega-microfactory," Aquila said. "In addition, we will be the first EV company to produce our battery modules with hydro power from the Grand River Dam Authority. We will work closely with and hire within the surrounding communities to create an EV ecosystem in the region."

In July, Panasonic Energy announced that it will invest $4 billion in an EV battery factory in De Soto, Kansas, to supply high-capacity batteries for Tesla. Canoo had previously announced Panasonic as its battery cell provider.

The most basic component of the battery system, the battery module contains the energy-storing battery cells. Once online, the battery facility in Pryor will be capable of about 3,200 megawatt hours of battery module manufacturing capacity.

Canoo soon will begin renovations on a 100,000-square-foot building it leased from the park on a 10-acre campus. Delivery of the secured manufacturing equipment is expected in the first quarter of 2023. The location will produce proprietary battery modules on high-capacity assembly lines with state-of-the-art automated machinery.

"It will ramp up quickly," Stewart said. "They are starting on the renovation on the facility now to put in office space. The equipment is on its way to be installed in the first quarter. We would expect them to start hiring during that first quarter and kick off employment, which is key to get prepared for the ultimate manufacturing facility that they will build here."

Mid-America reportedly remains in play for an EV battery manufacturing plant.

The Wall Street Journal reported in late August that Oklahoma is being considered for such a facility, citing people familiar with the matter. Panasonic Holdings, a supplier to electric car manufacturer Tesla, is in negotiations to build the factory at a cost of about $4 billion, the newspaper reported.

MAIP was a finalist for the Kansas factory and had offered millions of dollars in incentives to land the economic development in an effort labeled "Project Ocean."
https://tulsaworld.com/business/canoo-says-it-will-build-electric-vehicle-battery-module-facility-in-pryor/article_ead66306-5aae-11ed-8f3d-53e3143b7ea7.html

Meh, we'll see. At least things are in motion and they are working on the buildings. I doubt Canoo will ever be as big as originally imagined, but it's nice to have something in the works.

So the TIF failed lol

Why LOL?

More of a "laugh to hide the pain" kind of lol

Quote from: Jake on November 09, 2022, 09:58:15 AM
More of a "laugh to hide the pain" kind of lol

I've tried to find the specific ballot language and can't - it does seem that a lot of the narrative was around Project Ocean specifically and that this was essentially creating a blank check for the county now that they went to Kansas. I can see why that would be concerning for residents to have a $100 million+ slush fund for Mid America to do what they wanted. I do wonder if it would have played out different if people realized that they were seriously considering a second plant in Oklahoma and specific steps to dissolve the TIF if nothing was announce and/or no ability to bond the TIF versus it being a pay as you go TIF.

The county commissioner that voted against the TIF lost in the primary, so it's hard to think that people are that worried about a TIF and more so just the unknown/lack of clear communication about the project in general and the large $ involved. It could very well be a financial disaster for the county if say the county tried to bond any of that and nothing got built. I can assume Canoo's wishy washy we're building a plant, just kidding we're not, to just kidding we're building a battery facility probably spoked people too of is this TIF going to go to a legit company that isn't going to bankrupt or vanish in a year or two then residents are on the hook for $100 million +.

I also don't think there is anything that's stopping the county from just redrawing the border of the TIF and redoing the $ amount and making another. I don't think that vote did anything but cancel that specific one but doesn't restrict their ability to create others anytime they want. Obviously the same thing could happen again as voters can appeal any specific TIF at the point of creation, but if they officially announce something and people know exactly what company and where the $ is going people may not care at that point.

Mid America does need to come up with a specific housing plan, because dropping facilities that could employ 5,000 + in Mayes County would frankly be a disaster short term for housing in that area. Homes in Pryor are already outrageously expensive for a small town and without any real plan on where to build several thousand new homes quickly is going to be a legitimate concern from people who live there now.

.
There are great lamentations in Oklahoma about how it is we never seem to get the 'big score' company to come here for business development.   As if last Tuesday's election wasn't just one more reminder to the world of our failure as a local society and functional state, I saw this;

Short background;  Rebecca Robeson is a decorator from California who moved here a year or so ago to set up shop closer to grandkids.  She seems to have had a high end clientele in CA.   She is not the point of this, though she might be of interest to people wanting to decorate for the various seasons.  Like my wife...

The notable part of this relating to Oklahoma and business development happens at 10:44 into this video when she shows a clip from another CA guy, Chris D'Elia.  I have no idea who he is, but he PERFECTLY expresses the sentiment that has so many here wailing and gnashing of teeth.  Tulsa...??   What is that?  Encompassing the entire state of Oklahoma.   His attitude IS the attitude outside of fly over country.  And we just keep on keeping on, making their pre-conceived notions a self fulfilling prophecy.

Enjoy!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KydsPFtw5k8


.

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on November 11, 2022, 09:41:39 AM
.

The notable part of this relating to Oklahoma and business development happens at 10:44 into this video when she shows a clip from another CA guy, Chris D'Elia.  I have no idea who he is, but he PERFECTLY expresses the sentiment that has so many here wailing and gnashing of teeth.  Tulsa...??   What is that?  Encompassing the entire state of Oklahoma.   His attitude IS the attitude outside of fly over country.  And we just keep on keeping on, making their pre-conceived notions a self fulfilling prophecy.

I lived in San Francisco for a couple years right after college, and yes there are quite a few assumptions made about "flyover country"... In fact I had countless discussions with folks that just flat out did not know where anything was geographically out side of California. At first I had the whole defensive response to these people as it really pissed me off when I had to:

1. Point out where Oklahoma was
2. Prove that we aren't all a "buncha dumb racist rednecks"
3. Walk on eggshells to not offend anyone for differing opinions (heaven forbid you have some different views out there)

The density of these folks is unreal. Coupled with an insane holier than though led me to stop caring what Californians though of where I came from (and led me to get the hell out of there and hightail it to Dallas).

It is frustrating hearing opinions that paint us in a bad light but my lessons learned was just flat out to not give a damn what they think. It almost made it fun living out there just playing along this way. We have our past, but so does every other state. There have been so many improvements, but we just like to focus on the negative stuff unfortunately.

NOW, what I do think Tulsans should care about is how the region views us. I can't tell you how many times I have heard how cool of a city Tulsa is from my circles down here. As a sort of outsider now, it is incredible how much the city has grown and I love coming back and showing her off:

My friends down here in Dallas love going up to Tulsa and have called it a "more conservative Austin"
I have quite a few collogues that live in Little Rock and come over for a weekend trip and agree that Little Rock feels about 10 years behind Tulsa
My college friends that stayed in Fayetteville let me know when they want to meet up there, and even though I can't make it, they just go without me and hang out around midtown
I even have some friends I made in California meet up there and they love it. (They love the "pace")

Apologies for the rantish reply here, I just think that at times we need to step back and, knowing there is still a ways to go, acknowledge Tulsa for all it has accomplished, big and small. I will be back Thanksgiving and Christmas and cant wait to see it again!

There was a TW article Sunday about a foreign traveler that visited all 50 states and Oklahoma/Tulsa was his last stop.  This was interesting:

QuoteWhy Tulsa instead of Oklahoma City? Chung sought advice from his California friends who had been to the state.

"They see Tulsa as the 'hip' part of Oklahoma. And I can see that it really is. There's a lot of energy, a lot going on. The most amazing thing about Tulsa is that, from the moment I got off the plane, I felt welcomed here."

I think Tulsa definitely has a good reputation regionally, expanding that nationally is a constant work in progress.

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/michael-overall-after-49-states-a-world-traveler-finally-comes-to-oklahoma-and-what-does/article_df203b80-605e-11ed-9878-ebb7ad5f9326.html#tracking-source=mp-homepage (https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/michael-overall-after-49-states-a-world-traveler-finally-comes-to-oklahoma-and-what-does/article_df203b80-605e-11ed-9878-ebb7ad5f9326.html#tracking-source=mp-homepage)

Quote from: SXSW on November 14, 2022, 10:01:03 AM
There was a TW article Sunday about a foreign traveler that visited all 50 states and Oklahoma/Tulsa was his last stop.  This was interesting:
I think Tulsa definitely has a good reputation regionally, expanding that nationally is a constant work in progress.

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/michael-overall-after-49-states-a-world-traveler-finally-comes-to-oklahoma-and-what-does/article_df203b80-605e-11ed-9878-ebb7ad5f9326.html#tracking-source=mp-homepage (https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/michael-overall-after-49-states-a-world-traveler-finally-comes-to-oklahoma-and-what-does/article_df203b80-605e-11ed-9878-ebb7ad5f9326.html#tracking-source=mp-homepage)

Agreed! I jokingly tell folks down here that OKC is the worlds largest truck stop lol

Quote from: D-TownTulsan on November 11, 2022, 11:10:08 AM


1. Point out where Oklahoma was
2. Prove that we aren't all a "buncha dumb racist rednecks"
3. Walk on eggshells to not offend anyone for differing opinions (heaven forbid you have some different views out there)

I have talked repeatedly here in the past about trying to get left and right coasters to just visit.  Uphill, losing battle.


In particular, your number 2 above.... can't disprove the truth.  All they have to do is look at the news coming from Oklahoma ALL THE TIME!!!   It proves we are.   Again, as shown in last Tuesday's election, one more time.  Just gotta keep on keepin' on.

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on November 15, 2022, 11:20:56 AM

I have talked repeatedly here in the past about trying to get left and right coasters to just visit.  Uphill, losing battle.


In particular, your number 2 above.... can't disprove the truth.  All they have to do is look at the news coming from Oklahoma ALL THE TIME!!!   It proves we are.   Again, as shown in last Tuesday's election, one more time.  Just gotta keep on keepin' on.

I'm going to continue with Tulsa King, but you can already tell they're gonna lean heavily into the "hick" persona. Right off the bat he goes to a car dealership with a racists owner wearing a cowboy hat with a thick accent doing his best Boss Hog impression. Stallone calls an Uber (hence can go anywhere) and ends up in a rural smoke hole full of cowboys. He then jokes about them not having Chianti, as though we don't have a ton of wine bars and fancy places serving overpriced cocktails. He'd fit right in at Ti Amos downtown. I get it's part of the plot that he's been "banished" to this place that is so different from NYC, but it's gonna be tough for us locals to see the persona play out. At least he ended at the Mayo downtown and they shot downtown so hopefully there is some plot within city limits.

Quote from: DowntownDan on November 17, 2022, 02:08:46 PM
I'm going to continue with Tulsa King, but you can already tell they're gonna lean heavily into the "hick" persona. Right off the bat he goes to a car dealership with a racists owner wearing a cowboy hat with a thick accent doing his best Boss Hog impression. Stallone calls an Uber (hence can go anywhere) and ends up in a rural smoke hole full of cowboys. He then jokes about them not having Chianti, as though we don't have a ton of wine bars and fancy places serving overpriced cocktails. He'd fit right in at Ti Amos downtown. I get it's part of the plot that he's been "banished" to this place that is so different from NYC, but it's gonna be tough for us locals to see the persona play out. At least he ended at the Mayo downtown and they shot downtown so hopefully there is some plot within city limits.

Just remember "Kansas City King" was only moved to Oklahoma because we have better production incentives.

Quote from: DowntownDan on November 17, 2022, 02:08:46 PM
I'm going to continue with Tulsa King, but you can already tell they're gonna lean heavily into the "hick" persona. Right off the bat he goes to a car dealership with a racists owner wearing a cowboy hat with a thick accent doing his best Boss Hog impression. Stallone calls an Uber (hence can go anywhere) and ends up in a rural smoke hole full of cowboys. He then jokes about them not having Chianti, as though we don't have a ton of wine bars and fancy places serving overpriced cocktails. He'd fit right in at Ti Amos downtown. I get it's part of the plot that he's been "banished" to this place that is so different from NYC, but it's gonna be tough for us locals to see the persona play out. At least he ended at the Mayo downtown and they shot downtown so hopefully there is some plot within city limits.

Haven't seen it yet.   Don't even know where to look for it.   Probably won't bother.


Edit;  curiosity got me, so did the DuckDuckGo thing and found a trailer.  He was on the phone with someone who asked him how Tulsa was treating him.  Can NOT believe they passed up that opportunity to use a "Norm-ism"...   "Like a baby treats a diaper....!"    (Cheers reference.)

Quote from: DowntownDan on November 17, 2022, 02:08:46 PM
I'm going to continue with Tulsa King, but you can already tell they're gonna lean heavily into the "hick" persona. Right off the bat he goes to a car dealership with a racists owner wearing a cowboy hat with a thick accent doing his best Boss Hog impression. Stallone calls an Uber (hence can go anywhere) and ends up in a rural smoke hole full of cowboys. He then jokes about them not having Chianti, as though we don't have a ton of wine bars and fancy places serving overpriced cocktails. He'd fit right in at Ti Amos downtown. I get it's part of the plot that he's been "banished" to this place that is so different from NYC, but it's gonna be tough for us locals to see the persona play out. At least he ended at the Mayo downtown and they shot downtown so hopefully there is some plot within city limits.

The Tulsa Whirled offered up this:

The gangster-out-of-place series "Tulsa King" starring Sylvester Stallone debuted recently on Paramount+.
To celebrate, Paramount+ is giving "the entire city of Tulsa" a free month of Paramount+, according to a recent announcement.

Ok, tell me what streaming service doesnt offer the first month free in hopes you will miss the deadline to unsubscribe before they ding your credit card?
Truly "hick-worthy."

Quote from: patric on November 19, 2022, 06:02:28 PM
The Tulsa Whirled offered up this:

The gangster-out-of-place series "Tulsa King" starring Sylvester Stallone debuted recently on Paramount+.
To celebrate, Paramount+ is giving "the entire city of Tulsa" a free month of Paramount+, according to a recent announcement.

Ok, tell me what streaming service doesnt offer the first month free in hopes you will miss the deadline to unsubscribe before they ding your credit card?
Truly "hick-worthy."

Paramount+ only does a free week preview.

Quote from: tulsabug on November 20, 2022, 12:23:07 PM
Paramount+ only does a free week preview.

Very generous. I stand corrected.

Quote from: patric on November 17, 2022, 07:21:26 PM
Just remember "Kansas City King" was only moved to Oklahoma because we have better production incentives.

I read that too but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Kansas City has a well known long standing mafia presence. The premise was that Tulsa had "nothing going on" in that regard (at least from the NY perspective) and he was sent here to just start doing mob stuff. I think the plot is supposed to broaden with that having been a pretext, but that line wouldn't make much sense if it were Kansas City.

Also, there was an interview with Taylor Sheridan where he mentioned he moved it as Kansas City wasn't remote enough for the plot (and like DowntownDan mentions, has always been a mafia haven). I also like to think it just sounded better as a title. Kansas City King is too wordy and if you're going to move it to Oklahoma, Tulsa is the absolute best choice. It's the most well-known and recognized city in Oklahoma (for good and bad reasons) and really has the best name in the state. They could have set this in OKC but that's a mouthful for a title and most other cities in OK are the same way (or they're completely nondescript). I'm also glad the show isn't populated with cliched Okies.

I've never seen Tulsa as being in Oklahoma, I've seen Oklahoma as being around Tulsa. Every day this is truer.

The Kansas City Kings were also an NBA franchise (now in Sacramento) and that would be something that came to mind with that title.

Quote from: tulsabug on November 23, 2022, 08:26:22 AM
Also, there was an interview with Taylor Sheridan where he mentioned he moved it as Kansas City wasn't remote enough for the plot (and like DowntownDan mentions, has always been a mafia haven). I also like to think it just sounded better as a title. Kansas City King is too wordy and if you're going to move it to Oklahoma, Tulsa is the absolute best choice. It's the most well-known and recognized city in Oklahoma (for good and bad reasons) and really has the best name in the state. They could have set this in OKC but that's a mouthful for a title and most other cities in OK are the same way (or they're completely nondescript). I'm also glad the show isn't populated with cliched Okies.

I've never seen Tulsa as being in Oklahoma, I've seen Oklahoma as being around Tulsa. Every day this is truer.

Every day Tulsa becomes more assimilated as Oklahoma.  Kinda like the Borg do....

Not sure if anyone has really been following this... I do wonder how a TIF would play into this if VW picks Mid America if they can try to make a new one eventhough the last did not pass voters.

VW is also looking to build a manufacturing plant for trucks/off road vehicles in a brand of theirs called 'Scout' (link: https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/volkswagen-build-own-plant-us-scout-brand-automobilwoche-2023-02-24/ (https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/volkswagen-build-own-plant-us-scout-brand-automobilwoche-2023-02-24/))

The Scout brand will be all electric so you'd think it would make sense to build them close to their battery plant location. They have said Scout will be built in the US, so hopefully that means they are focusing on the US for battery production too.

Not sure if any other sites in the US are in the finalist sites for the battery plant beside Mid America with the other site being in Canada.

I do wonder if someone like VW would be interested in Canoo. Frankly the Canoo designs kind of look VW-ish anyways. Imagine VW buying them and being able to scale up a brand of delivery trucks for Walmart, etc. It seems like Canoo has been shopping for a buyer quietly with the Apple rumors, etc. last year. It would give VW incentives already awarded to Canoo plus the new incentives that were laid out for Panasonic that are ready to go.

Ugh. Get ready to be disappointed again. At this point OK is just being used to force other offers to be higher. We've got some decent things to offer on paper, but the state has been proven to be too irrational/turbulent to be trusted with a $billion+ investment. Although I guess that's becoming true of a lot of similar states.

Canada surely has higher costs and more union issues, though sometimes you get what you pay for. Maybe the other states are tapped out with all the billions that have been handed out already, lol. Kansas is getting bogged down try to keep Panasonic moving along. Arkansas probably can't come up with more to offer than us.

I agree that Canoo's end game is likely getting bought out. They have just enough put together to be an acquisition target but still have a long road ahead to be successful on their own.

Quote from: shavethewhales on February 27, 2023, 01:15:29 PM
Ugh. Get ready to be disappointed again. At this point OK is just being used to force other offers to be higher. We've got some decent things to offer on paper, but the state has been proven to be too irrational/turbulent to be trusted with a $billion+ investment. Although I guess that's becoming true of a lot of similar states.

Canada surely has higher costs and more union issues, though sometimes you get what you pay for. Maybe the other states are tapped out with all the billions that have been handed out already, lol. Kansas is getting bogged down try to keep Panasonic moving along. Arkansas probably can't come up with more to offer than us.

I agree that Canoo's end game is likely getting bought out. They have just enough put together to be an acquisition target but still have a long road ahead to be successful on their own.

The interesting thing about Panasonic is they are now going back to Kansas and demanding they give all their suppliers the same incentives. Generally, the upside to states/local entities giving incentives is know they'll get 2nd and 3rd party suppliers moving in and thus they can point to well if we never gave Panasonic that money then X,XXX amount of jobs would never have came here either and that means millions in additional payroll and taxes. If Panasonic gets their suppliers similar breaks Kansas is getting no upside to anything. Then on top of that you're having to upgrade roads, infrastructure - who is going to be paying for all of that... the employees and residents there through significantly higher property taxes, etc. long term. 

Frankly, Oklahoma might have dodged a giant bullet with that.

Good thing now is the money passed by the legislature last year is still there and the state has said first come first serve. So it does take some guessing out of it and does put us in a better position with say a VW. I think the biggest mistake with Panasonic was how slow our legislature moved last year, they ultimately were what killed the deal along with the complications to the TIF. The TIF would have gotten the $$ amount closer to what Kansas was offering total so I think once that got challenged and how long it took our legislature to get the bill passed Panasonic was done with Oklahoma. I think they probably realized that if it was this difficult to get something for them in Oklahoma, asking for incentives for suppliers stood zero chance here and that Kansas seemed frankly far more desperate. There's good and bad to that.

I have heard that the lack of housing in Mayes County has been a significant concern for many of the larger companies looking at Mid America. Housing costs in Pryor are already crazy and adding a few thousand more jobs will likely push that market into even more distress for more housing. They really need a more cohesive plan from how they plan to increase housing around Mid America and get some developers on board that are willing to start neighborhoods as soon as any major employer announcements are made. Getting large parcels around the park permit ready for housing would be something they could do. Have park officials reach out to large parcel owners and see who is willing to sell and for what $ and then get a masterplan ready for the site and approved so all any home building or apartment developer would have to do is close on the land and it'd be ready to build.

Quote from: LandArchPoke on February 27, 2023, 12:34:55 PM
The Scout brand will be all electric so you'd think it would make sense to build them close to their battery plant location. They have said Scout will be built in the US, so hopefully that means they are focusing on the US for battery production too.

Not sure if any other sites in the US are in the finalist sites for the battery plant beside Mid America with the other site being in Canada.

There is zero chance VW will be building anything in Oklahoma. There also isn't a great chance at VW actually following through with building Scouts period. They like to throw lots of press releases out there and usually they don't amount to anything. They need a truck in the US market but half-a$$edly copying Rivian isn't going to cut it and they know it. They know it well enough to know it's not worth building a whole new factory for it. The ID-4 is not selling like they thought it would here - now if it were a success then maybe I could see the Scout line happening, but not now.

Quote from: LandArchPoke
I do wonder if someone like VW would be interested in Canoo. Frankly the Canoo designs kind of look VW-ish anyways. Imagine VW buying them and being able to scale up a brand of delivery trucks for Walmart, etc. It seems like Canoo has been shopping for a buyer quietly with the Apple rumors, etc. last year. It would give VW incentives already awarded to Canoo plus the new incentives that were laid out for Panasonic that are ready to go.

Maybe somebody would license some tech from Canoo but no one wants that company and VW has their own EV tech that is far superior than what Canoo has come up with. VW already has delivery vans in Europe - they have everything there all the way up to semis. If they do anything, they would probably make a cargo version of the ID Buzz since, well, they always made cargo versions of their buses, and they are building that here. I don't think it's going to sell well because initial pricing is showing waaaaaay out of range and VW is only going to build a stretched version here to go after that practically non-existent mini-van market. VW doesn't understand the US market (and doesn't respect it) so they're always two steps behind and they have been since the 70s.

Volkswagen doesn't do well here, but Audi, Porsche and Navistar do.

Quote from: tulsabug on February 27, 2023, 06:31:41 PM
There is zero chance VW will be building anything in Oklahoma. There also isn't a great chance at VW actually following through with building Scouts period. They like to throw lots of press releases out there and usually they don't amount to anything. They need a truck in the US market but half-a$$edly copying Rivian isn't going to cut it and they know it. They know it well enough to know it's not worth building a whole new factory for it. The ID-4 is not selling like they thought it would here - now if it were a success then maybe I could see the Scout line happening, but not now.Maybe somebody would license some tech from Canoo but no one wants that company and VW has their own EV tech that is far superior than what Canoo has come up with. VW already has delivery vans in Europe - they have everything there all the way up to semis. If they do anything, they would probably make a cargo version of the ID Buzz since, well, they always made cargo versions of their buses, and they are building that here. I don't think it's going to sell well because initial pricing is showing waaaaaay out of range and VW is only going to build a stretched version here to go after that practically non-existent mini-van market. VW doesn't understand the US market (and doesn't respect it) so they're always two steps behind and they have been since the 70s.

VW is also already building stuff in Oklahoma via Navistar lol.

I don't think the tech is really something VW would find value in via Canoo. The Walmart contract and foot in the door with them could be extremely lucrative. That's the only reason Rivian has any value is the Amazon connection.

VW's problem with the US market is they've never produced vehicles the style American's want. The Jetta was pretty popular for a while but the US has pivoted back to SUVs now that they have become more fuel efficient. The only SUV they've ever designed that wasn't butt ugly is the Toureig and they stopped selling it in the US because it was essentially an Audi Q5 for almost the same price without the brand prestige.

Scout is a real and popular vehicle from the past and they acquired that via mergers/acquisitions. It looked very similar to a Bronco from that era. The Scout naming, brand, etc. isn't something they just came up with - it's not that dissimilar to Ford bringing back the Bronco which has been incredibly popular.

I'm not saying Scout/VW will build an auto plant here - that's just speculation based on them announcing they are not interested in co-developing the brand any longer. VW is building a plant to produce Scout vehicles, that's not speculation and they are actively looking for a USA location. VW has plenty of $$ to spend and while you are right the VW brand hasn't really caught on in the US like Europe the Audi, Porsche, etc. are all incredibly popular here. It would make sense to try and locate the Scout plant next to where they build a battery plant. Canoo also has a pretty solid economic package in place that beyond the Walmart contract could be attractive to VW in addition to what they'd get for a battery plant via the Panasonic $$ that's available still.

With Navistar already in Tulsa, who knows. Navistar was officially under the VW umbrella in 2021, after the lease issues/renewal with the Tulsa plant in 2020.

Quote from: swake on February 27, 2023, 07:16:58 PM
Volkswagen doesn't do well here, but Audi, Porsche and Navistar do.

Audi and Porsche actually don't either. Now Porsche is a pretty low-volume manufacturer anyways, that's the nature of their beast. The US is actually Porsche's smallest market. Within luxury marques Audi is, at best a second-thought and their sales show that. For as big of a manufacturer as VW is, their US sales are pathetic, and they have been since the 70s.

Quote from: LandArchPoke on February 28, 2023, 01:13:37 AM
VW is also already building stuff in Oklahoma via Navistar lol.

I don't think the tech is really something VW would find value in via Canoo. The Walmart contract and foot in the door with them could be extremely lucrative. That's the only reason Rivian has any value is the Amazon connection.

VW's problem with the US market is they've never produced vehicles the style American's want. The Jetta was pretty popular for a while but the US has pivoted back to SUVs now that they have become more fuel efficient. The only SUV they've ever designed that wasn't butt ugly is the Toureig and they stopped selling it in the US because it was essentially an Audi Q5 for almost the same price without the brand prestige.

Scout is a real and popular vehicle from the past and they acquired that via mergers/acquisitions. It looked very similar to a Bronco from that era. The Scout naming, brand, etc. isn't something they just came up with - it's not that dissimilar to Ford bringing back the Bronco which has been incredibly popular.

I'm not saying Scout/VW will build an auto plant here - that's just speculation based on them announcing they are not interested in co-developing the brand any longer. VW is building a plant to produce Scout vehicles, that's not speculation and they are actively looking for a USA location. VW has plenty of $$ to spend and while you are right the VW brand hasn't really caught on in the US like Europe the Audi, Porsche, etc. are all incredibly popular here. It would make sense to try and locate the Scout plant next to where they build a battery plant. Canoo also has a pretty solid economic package in place that beyond the Walmart contract could be attractive to VW in addition to what they'd get for a battery plant via the Panasonic $$ that's available still.

With Navistar already in Tulsa, who knows. Navistar was officially under the VW umbrella in 2021, after the lease issues/renewal with the Tulsa plant in 2020.

Well, VW sent out a press release that they're going to build a plant in the US along with some quicky sketches of basically Rivian clones. This was a kneejerk reaction that only came about due to the new version of the $7500 EV credit. VW says a lot of things, but the proof is in the pudding and when it comes to vaporware, they're second only to Tesla. Could VW conceivably build a dedicated factory and design, engineer, and put into production plus create an entire dealer network for a Scout by 2026? Sure, if they were a well-run company, but they're not. The ID Buzz has taken 22 years to come to fruition and, frankly, they're still screwing it up and it's going to flop (and they said they were building a factory for that almost the entire time too). The entire ID line hasn't taken root and now they're getting ready to rename all of those models hoping it helps sales (I guess it can't hurt). VW has shown no interest in developing their commercial sales in the US and they aren't going to start. VW had a few vehicles that sold well in the US - the original Beetle, Bus, Ghia and, to a lesser degree, the Rabbit (or Golf depending on the generation) and they've been trying to catch the flash in the pan again ever since. VW's problem is they're always trying to copy what someone else has already done and then they do it badly. The Atlas is a cheaply done Grand Cherokee, the Passat was a cheaply done Camry, the ID4 is a meh-copy of a Tesla 3, The Scout is a half-a$$ed Rivian, it goes on and on.

Yes, I would like to see some car manufacturers setting up in Oklahoma, but it's not going to be VW and, frankly, it's not going to be Canoo either. The factory in Pryor isn't happening. The headquarters in Bentonville isn't happening. They have $40m cash left, if Canoo makes it until the end of summer, I'll be surprised.

Quote from: tulsabug on February 28, 2023, 07:50:16 AM
Audi and Porsche actually don't either. Now Porsche is a pretty low-volume manufacturer anyways, that's the nature of their beast. The US is actually Porsche's smallest market. Within luxury marques Audi is, at best a second-thought and their sales show that. For as big of a manufacturer as VW is, their US sales are pathetic, and they have been since the 70s.


Well, VW sent out a press release that they're going to build a plant in the US along with some quicky sketches of basically Rivian clones. This was a kneejerk reaction that only came about due to the new version of the $7500 EV credit. VW says a lot of things, but the proof is in the pudding and when it comes to vaporware, they're second only to Tesla. Could VW conceivably build a dedicated factory and design, engineer, and put into production plus create an entire dealer network for a Scout by 2026? Sure, if they were a well-run company, but they're not. The ID Buzz has taken 22 years to come to fruition and, frankly, they're still screwing it up and it's going to flop (and they said they were building a factory for that almost the entire time too). The entire ID line hasn't taken root and now they're getting ready to rename all of those models hoping it helps sales (I guess it can't hurt). VW has shown no interest in developing their commercial sales in the US and they aren't going to start. VW had a few vehicles that sold well in the US - the original Beetle, Bus, Ghia and, to a lesser degree, the Rabbit (or Golf depending on the generation) and they've been trying to catch the flash in the pan again ever since. VW's problem is they're always trying to copy what someone else has already done and then they do it badly. The Atlas is a cheaply done Grand Cherokee, the Passat was a cheaply done Camry, the ID4 is a meh-copy of a Tesla 3, The Scout is a half-a$$ed Rivian, it goes on and on.

Yes, I would like to see some car manufacturers setting up in Oklahoma, but it's not going to be VW and, frankly, it's not going to be Canoo either. The factory in Pryor isn't happening. The headquarters in Bentonville isn't happening. They have $40m cash left, if Canoo makes it until the end of summer, I'll be surprised.

All fair points... I get you don't like VW and associated brands lol. What giant company is ever run well though? There's a point in size for all companies, especially public that they all become an internal sh*t show. It's just a nature of management, structure, and pressures of public companies (exec bonuses, exec turnover(golden parachutes), margins, etc.)

I do agree, it would take a lot to get Scout to be a legit brand. I would take a VW backed brand plant way before Canoo - if Scout went under VW would not let a plant in Oklahoma sit empty it would be repurposed for something especially if the battery plant was next door, if it was Canoo it would likely be empty and hope some other brand picks it up on fire sale. I can also see how there could be some interest from VW to acquire Canoo especially if it gave them a foot in the door to Walmart - I think you under estimate how big of a deal that is. You've pointed out many of the counter points, frankly all are very valid. Not saying I'm right, more than likely you're right I'm just pointing out the optimist side of it lol.

What I can say is given what Panasonic is doing to Kansas I think it would have actually been a pretty terrible deal had it came here, no way of knowing that when it was down to the final two though.

The VW deal has hinted to legislatures and others that the long term plan is 7,000-10,000 by 2026 and there would be 'further requests' for expansions, etc. It seems like some of the leaks, etc. seem to be lining up for not only a battery plant but possibly something with the Scout brand given the timing of it's announcement. Whether that brand ever amounts to anything is debatable. I personally like the sketches of it and if it looks anything like Rivian or the Bronco I think they'd sell a lot of them. I've wanted to buy the Rivian SUV but they can't deliver them with any sense of urgency so I'm likely going to buy the Volvo EX90 when it comes out in the fall. I think Tesla SUVs look like a bloated minivan. I like the Tesla cars but not the X or Y at all. I've had an Audi before and it had issues, it was well made in terms of quality but it did break. Volvo I have currently same thing though. Land Rover, BMW, Mercedes they're all a gamble on what you're going to get. Not sure Ford, GM, etc. are any better nor are Tesla's or any other brand. Car quality is on a significant decline in the last decade or two across the board.

Quote from: LandArchPoke on February 28, 2023, 11:27:04 AM
All fair points... I get you don't like VW and associated brands lol. What giant company is ever run well though? There's a point in size for all companies, especially public that they all become an internal sh*t show. It's just a nature of management, structure, and pressures of public companies (exec bonuses, exec turnover(golden parachutes), margins, etc.)

I do agree, it would take a lot to get Scout to be a legit brand. I would take a VW backed brand plant way before Canoo - if Scout went under VW would not let a plant in Oklahoma sit empty it would be repurposed for something especially if the battery plant was next door, if it was Canoo it would likely be empty and hope some other brand picks it up on fire sale. I can also see how there could be some interest from VW to acquire Canoo especially if it gave them a foot in the door to Walmart - I think you under estimate how big of a deal that is. You've pointed out many of the counter points, frankly all are very valid. Not saying I'm right, more than likely you're right I'm just pointing out the optimist side of it lol.

What I can say is given what Panasonic is doing to Kansas I think it would have actually been a pretty terrible deal had it came here, no way of knowing that when it was down to the final two though.

The VW deal has hinted to legislatures and others that the long term plan is 7,000-10,000 by 2026 and there would be 'further requests' for expansions, etc. It seems like some of the leaks, etc. seem to be lining up for not only a battery plant but possibly something with the Scout brand given the timing of it's announcement. Whether that brand ever amounts to anything is debatable. I personally like the sketches of it and if it looks anything like Rivian or the Bronco I think they'd sell a lot of them. I've wanted to buy the Rivian SUV but they can't deliver them with any sense of urgency so I'm likely going to buy the Volvo EX90 when it comes out in the fall. I think Tesla SUVs look like a bloated minivan. I like the Tesla cars but not the X or Y at all. I've had an Audi before and it had issues, it was well made in terms of quality but it did break. Volvo I have currently same thing though. Land Rover, BMW, Mercedes they're all a gamble on what you're going to get. Not sure Ford, GM, etc. are any better nor are Tesla's or any other brand. Car quality is on a significant decline in the last decade or two across the board.

Oh, I like VW - almost all my cars are VWs and I deal with the company on a daily basis, but it's not well run. It doesn't have a clear vision and is completely reactionary to the market. They're the Burger King of the car market - if McDonalds comes out with something, BK will copy it to middling results. It also doesn't understand the US market. It never wanted to be in the US market - independent importers forced it on them. VW of America wasn't even born until 6 years after Beetles were being sold here by independent dealers importing them. They've misunderstood the US market since day one and this whole Scout nonsense is just the latest step in that.

I'd love to see the Scout happen BUT if it does, it won't happen soon, it won't be done well, and it'll die a quick death because that's how VW rolls. Yes, a VW plant would be better than a Canoo plant - I totally agree. Honestly, a Canoe plant would be better than a Canoo plant.

And, sorry, modern VWs are turds - I sell enough parts for them to know this well. The quality has literally not been there since the mid-70s. Audis look nice, have better designs, better interiors and so on than VW, but they're completely VW under the skin so it's no surprise that everything breaks. VW makes some decent engines and then bolt crappy cars to them. The general rule of thumb will all luxury cars, and anything European, is to sell it before the warranty is up. This holds true for Mercedes, BMW, Volvo, and so on. The biggest problem with car quality is all new doodads and gizmos they're adding. Gimmicky stuff always breaks and they're really going overboard with it now.

Quote from: tulsabug on March 01, 2023, 09:08:18 AM
This holds true for Mercedes, BMW, Volvo, and so on. The biggest problem with car quality is all new doodads and gizmos they're adding. Gimmicky stuff always breaks and they're really going overboard with it now.

It seems the selling points for any new car is the technology.  The fact that it's in a vehicle is secondary.   :(

Quote from: tulsabug on March 01, 2023, 09:08:18 AM
Oh, I like VW - almost all my cars are VWs and I deal with the company on a daily basis, but it's not well run. It doesn't have a clear vision and is completely reactionary to the market. They're the Burger King of the car market - if McDonalds comes out with something, BK will copy it to middling results. It also doesn't understand the US market. It never wanted to be in the US market - independent importers forced it on them. VW of America wasn't even born until 6 years after Beetles were being sold here by independent dealers importing them. They've misunderstood the US market since day one and this whole Scout nonsense is just the latest step in that.

I'd love to see the Scout happen BUT if it does, it won't happen soon, it won't be done well, and it'll die a quick death because that's how VW rolls. Yes, a VW plant would be better than a Canoo plant - I totally agree. Honestly, a Canoe plant would be better than a Canoo plant.

And, sorry, modern VWs are turds - I sell enough parts for them to know this well. The quality has literally not been there since the mid-70s. Audis look nice, have better designs, better interiors and so on than VW, but they're completely VW under the skin so it's no surprise that everything breaks. VW makes some decent engines and then bolt crappy cars to them. The general rule of thumb will all luxury cars, and anything European, is to sell it before the warranty is up. This holds true for Mercedes, BMW, Volvo, and so on. The biggest problem with car quality is all new doodads and gizmos they're adding. Gimmicky stuff always breaks and they're really going overboard with it now.

Also, when I say "quality" I'm speaking purely on aesthetics and comfort, not necessarily about anything else. The Audi I had was very solid in that category but the fuel pump went out twice on it and those are thousands each time, second time it happened I traded it in for a Volvo. Volvo's interiors are top notch and by far the most comfortable car I've driven. The tech side is great too, their self driving technology is very underrated and the new EX90s are going to have some serious upgrades in that regard. I've had several minor problem with my Volvo though, biggest was the second battery that works while you're stopped, etc. went bad within 20k miles and when it went bad it turned off every feature on the car pretty much (not a single parking sensor worked, collision avoidance, etc.) which frankly didn't make any sense why an auxiliary battery would case that. BUT I also had a Jeep Cherokee for years. The transmission went out three times before the warranty was up and also had a screw loose somewhere that anytime I got on the highway you could hear it rattle. It wasn't a cheap Jeep either, it was the top line model. Out of all the cars I've had, the US brands have been by far the worst. I agree the more dumb gadgets and tech they throw into the cars the worse it seems to get.

I would say in terms of looking at VW, they will never be on the scale of what they are in Europe here - I'd bet VW does better in North America than any US brand does in Europe. I personally wouldn't be afraid to buy another Audi but it is always a gamble on how many problems it'll have.. my mom still has an Audi she bought 6 years ago and has never had a single thing wrong with it so it is possible to get a decent one sometimes lol.

Will be interesting to see what comes out either Friday or weekend. It sounds like there is a likely announcement being made from what was reported in the news unless it gets pushed back.

Also something about VW is they've said the average pay will be $75,000 a year versus Panasonic which was closer to $50,000 a year or less I believe. So this could actually be a pretty good upgrade after losing the Panasonic deal. Kansas may wish they could swap projects lol.

It's between somewhere in Canada and MAIP in Oklahoma? 

Welp - so much for that - https://news.yahoo.com/vw-backed-scout-motors-build-163732799.html

To be fair, they were supposedly going to build both a manufacturing plant and a battery plant:

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/volkswagen-constructive-talks-over-first-gigafactory-north-america-2023-03-03/



Although I'm as negative and skeptical as the next person, so I just assume Oklahoma screwed it up again.

Quote from: tulsabug on March 04, 2023, 07:24:56 AM
Welp - so much for that - https://news.yahoo.com/vw-backed-scout-motors-build-163732799.html

That one apparently wasn't what Oklahoma was going for. Supposedly there the battery factory is what we are going after, between Pryor and Canada. I saw a report the VW board is still working on this decision. Although it doesn't look good if they can't make this decision the same time as the SC plant. Makes me think Oklahoma screwed up again.

Yup. Don't let the crazy circumstances of the last several efforts distract you from the fact that when it comes down to it, Oklahoma can't compete. We've got some minor geographical advantages such as the port and highway crossroads, but we lack the workforce, education systems, investment dollars, political environment, and everything else that attracts business. Better to go after smaller on-shoring manufacturing opportunities at this point, I would think.

Quote from: shavethewhales on March 04, 2023, 10:59:57 AM
Yup. Don't let the crazy circumstances of the last several efforts distract you from the fact that when it comes down to it, Oklahoma can't compete. We've got some minor geographical advantages such as the port and highway crossroads, but we lack the workforce, education systems, investment dollars, political environment, and everything else that attracts business. Better to go after smaller on-shoring manufacturing opportunities at this point, I would think.

I'm as big of an Oklahoma politic hater as there is, but at the same time no one can tell me that South Carolina somehow has a better educational, political, or workforce than Northeast Oklahoma. They don't, sorry. It's not like we're losing out to places like Minnesota, Colorado, Oregon, etc. that are some polar opposite of Oklahoma currently.

We're getting passed over primarily because we don't seem to take incentives as seriously as other states and Mid America has an alarming lack of housing in and around the park. Until MIAP resolves that, it's going to be really hard to catch these mega projects. If MIAP was in Inola or just a bit closer to Tulsa suburbs it probably wouldn't be an issue. But say the Scout plant location and De Soto are in areas where there is just more accessible housing and other critical needs that Mayes County just doesn't have yet. MIAP leadership really need to invest in some time to getting a housing plan together or start acquiring large parcels and getting them permitted for housing and ready to show that they have the ability to deal with 3,000+ people moving to the area. A crappy house in Pryor can cost over $300,000 - that's now - add that many more new people to an area that is no where close to prepared for mass housing starts, etc.

I don't know if Scout was ever even looking at Oklahoma, that was just me reading between the lines that it seemed like they were by leaks and other things. The battery plant is what has been confirmed that is looking at either Oklahoma or Canada. So we'll see, when we didn't hear anything on Friday or yet makes me think that Canada is probably their top choice and Oklahoma is the bait/back up. 

Quote from: LandArchPoke on March 04, 2023, 11:51:05 AM
I'm as big of an Oklahoma politic hater as there is, but at the same time no one can tell me that South Carolina somehow has a better educational, political, or workforce than Northeast Oklahoma. They don't, sorry. It's not like we're losing out to places like Minnesota, Colorado, Oregon, etc. that are some polar opposite of Oklahoma currently.

We're getting passed over primarily because we don't seem to take incentives as seriously as other states and Mid America has an alarming lack of housing in and around the park. Until MIAP resolves that, it's going to be really hard to catch these mega projects. If MIAP was in Inola or just a bit closer to Tulsa suburbs it probably wouldn't be an issue. But say the Scout plant location and De Soto are in areas where there is just more accessible housing and other critical needs that Mayes County just doesn't have yet. MIAP leadership really need to invest in some time to getting a housing plan together or start acquiring large parcels and getting them permitted for housing and ready to show that they have the ability to deal with 3,000+ people moving to the area. A crappy house in Pryor can cost over $300,000 - that's now - add that many more new people to an area that is no where close to prepared for mass housing starts, etc.

I don't know if Scout was ever even looking at Oklahoma, that was just me reading between the lines that it seemed like they were by leaks and other things. The battery plant is what has been confirmed that is looking at either Oklahoma or Canada. So we'll see, when we didn't hear anything on Friday or yet makes me think that Canada is probably their top choice and Oklahoma is the bait/back up.  

I agree with the politics part being the same in South Carolina, except for one thing. Mayes County voted against incentives due to a lot of NIMBY talk about how they don't want growth or outsiders. Big plants probably don't want to go where they aren't wanted.

Hopefully the Port of Inola area in Rogers County and mostly in the city of Tulsa will soon be able to take the place of Mid-America for these large projects.

It seems like the industrial park in Fair Oaks where Tesla was looking at would be a better option for these factories because it would be next to Tulsa and easier access to labor.  I know they are working on utility extensions there to get it ready for development.  Mayes County isn't working.

Quote from: SXSW on March 04, 2023, 03:08:33 PMMayes County isn't working.

Actually, it is working.... the way Mayes County wants it to work.

Quote from: swake on March 04, 2023, 03:02:07 PM
Mayes County voted against incentives due to a lot of NIMBY talk about how they don't want growth or outsiders.

I can understand that Chouteau and Pryor don't want to become the next Broken Arrow, Jenks, Owasso, Bixby.  That's what they would get, not an urban center like most here want Tulsa to return to.  As much as people here despise the suburban sprawl, how could "we" wish that on someone else?

The Scout factory was never in play.  It's always been a gigafactory for MAIP because of the GRDA hydroelectric option -- the power is cheap and dependable and the charged power cells will be manufactured carbon neutral.  Panasonic... Tesla... Volkswagen.  Somebody's going to build a gigafactory in MAIP.  

And the VW board was supposed to take this up Friday but some quirk of German corporate law prevented them from doing both Scout and the gigafactory in the same day.  So they'll decide between MAIP and Canada next week.  It may be a few weeks before the decision is public.

Also - the thing our people could learn from South Carolina is how to respect an NDA.  Notice the SC site still isn't public?  It doesn't make these corporations happy when details get out through the governor's office.

Quote from: SXSW on March 04, 2023, 03:08:33 PM
It seems like the industrial park in Fair Oaks where Tesla was looking at would be a better option for these factories because it would be next to Tulsa and easier access to labor.  I know they are working on utility extensions there to get it ready for development.  Mayes County isn't working.

I do believe that is why there is a sense of urgency around getting the Fair Oaks urban center plan moving. The water/sewer line that got state ARPA funding was huge to move it forward. They're doing what MAIP should have been doing years ago which is a job center plus housing plan. Fair Oaks will be one of the largest new urbanist planned communities in the country. So they'll be able to sell companies on the fact that they can locate there and within 1-2 miles there is zoning approvals and master plan ready for 10,000+ homes/apartments/etc.

Quote from: Red Arrow on March 04, 2023, 07:53:14 PM
Actually, it is working.... the way Mayes County wants it to work.

It's hard to fault the fear many have when you can't buy a decent house in Pryor for under $300k. It's a lack of planning on Mayes County officials and it's a shame because there's a lot of opportunity there. I think until they can develop a plan on how to deal with a several thousand person employer coming in and not just 'the market will figure itself out' type of thing most people are going to be fearful that they're going to get priced out because they already are in current time. I'm very pro development, but it's hard to not understand why many residents there don't want more MAIP development without a more strategic plan from officials on how they plan to deal with that many people moving there.

Quote from: LandArchPoke on March 06, 2023, 10:37:23 AM
I'm very pro development, but it's hard to not understand why many residents there don't want more MAIP development without a more strategic plan from officials on how they plan to deal with that many people moving there.

Or....there is another possibility that many folks there are happy being a mostly rural community and don't want that massive growth no matter how well intentioned and planned it might be by pro-development folks.  I worked at a place in MAIP in the 90s.  Several people that lived in Chouteau expressed that there was a no-growth attitude even then.  They didn't all agree but the attitude was there.

MAIP exists mostly because it is left over from World War II.  I believe it was a POW camp.

Quote from: swake on March 04, 2023, 03:02:07 PM
I agree with the politics part being the same in South Carolina, except for one thing. Mayes County voted against incentives due to a lot of NIMBY talk about how they don't want growth or outsiders. Big plants probably don't want to go where they aren't wanted.

Hopefully the Port of Inola area in Rogers County and mostly in the city of Tulsa will soon be able to take the place of Mid-America for these large projects.

Isn't the Inola port just the old location of the never constructed Black Fox Nuclear Power Plant?

Quote from: Hoss on March 07, 2023, 09:51:44 AM
Isn't the Inola port just the old location of the never constructed Black Fox Nuclear Power Plant?

Yes, and unlike MAIP it's 30 miles from downtown Tulsa and even closer to parts of east Tulsa and Broken Arrow.  It has rail access and a barge slip on the Verdigris River.  It would be a fantastic site for one of these megafactories.

(https://www.tulsasfuture.com/media/userfiles/subsite_146/images/news/tulsa_Port_of_inola.png)

Quote from: SXSW on March 07, 2023, 10:27:35 AM
Yes, and unlike MAIP it's 30 miles from downtown Tulsa and even closer to parts of east Tulsa and Broken Arrow.  It has rail access and a barge slip on the Verdigris River.  It would be a fantastic site for one of these megafactories.

(https://www.tulsasfuture.com/media/userfiles/subsite_146/images/news/tulsa_Port_of_inola.png)

My guess is that the power cost situation is just not as ideal as MAIP and I think a big pull for MAIP is that it's coming from hydro too. Would be cool to see PSO do a solar farm in this area that could power both this site and the Fair Oaks Urban Center site.

If they built a bridge across the Verdigris to connect into BA faster this site would be a no brainer for many reasons. Right now it's still pretty hard to access even though it is closer given it sits a few miles south of 412 and the Verdigris cuts off access.

Quote from: Red Arrow on March 06, 2023, 09:47:05 PM
Or....there is another possibility that many folks there are happy being a mostly rural community and don't want that massive growth no matter how well intentioned and planned it might be by pro-development folks.  I worked at a place in MAIP in the 90s.  Several people that lived in Chouteau expressed that there was a no-growth attitude even then.  They didn't all agree but the attitude was there.

MAIP exists mostly because it is left over from World War II.  I believe it was a POW camp.

No doubt there is a large group that is a No to anything and everything. Usually in rural areas it can be 30 - 50 % (usually the oldest generation that votes too), so the problem is if just a smaller percentage of people have bigger concerns that could be a yes it tips the scales very quickly. Just reading into the election results there how the Commissioner who stalled everything was voted out but yet the TIF failed (you'd think that if they vote the guy out who tried to sink the TIF, the TIF would pass) - so that tells me there's probably 10 - 15% of people who's biggest concern is that Mayes County doesn't have the housing and infrastructure ready for something like this and that rests on the leaders there - and while they didn't like that the guy stood in the way of progress the way he did they are also uncomfortable with passing a TIF until the area is in a better position to handle growth.

There will always be a strong core of anti-growth in rural counties no matter what and they just failed to convince the middle ground. The 'just trust the free market' doesn't always work when housing costs in Pryor are already insane. The simple fix just seems like establishing a housing plan and identifying builders who would like to develop in the area and finding a handful of large parcels willing to sell where you can start and finish a few thousand for sale and rental units within a 3-5 year window. It's really not a complicated solution and would ease a lot of fears of being priced out of the market for existing residents. Plus they'd know exactly where and what could be developed too.  

Quote from: Hoss on March 07, 2023, 09:51:44 AM
Isn't the Inola port just the old location of the never constructed Black Fox Nuclear Power Plant?

I always thought of the activity on the Verdigris at 412 to be the Inola port but I see now that the "Tulsa Port of Inola" is the old Blackfox site and does not include the activity at 412.

Quote from: shavethewhales on March 04, 2023, 10:59:57 AM
Yup. Don't let the crazy circumstances of the last several efforts distract you from the fact that when it comes down to it, Oklahoma can't compete. We've got some minor geographical advantages such as the port and highway crossroads, but we lack the workforce, education systems, investment dollars, political environment, and everything else that attracts business. Better to go after smaller on-shoring manufacturing opportunities at this point, I would think.

At least if a big pharmaceutical company wants to set up manufacturing in Oklahoma they know who to call...

(https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/0/5a/05a01392-babb-5a22-a268-27e9cf8da941/64063f63cb333.image.jpg?resize=1000%2C600)

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/volkswagen-build-first-north-american-battery-cell-plant-canada-2023-03-13/

Canada threw it's weight around and was apparently more involved than we thought. Tough to see another opportunity go by, but it doesn't seem like we were ever really in the frontrunning for anything. We're just a backup plan and negotiating leverage. Like I've said before, if we want to compete beyond just reaching for huge incentive packages that others can beat, we would have to focus on education, infrastructure, workforce improvements, etc... I don't see any notable improvements in those aspects on the horizon for this state.

Quote from: shavethewhales on March 13, 2023, 01:25:42 PM
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/volkswagen-build-first-north-american-battery-cell-plant-canada-2023-03-13/

Canada threw it's weight around and was apparently more involved than we thought. Tough to see another opportunity go by, but it doesn't seem like we were ever really in the frontrunning for anything. We're just a backup plan and negotiating leverage. Like I've said before, if we want to compete beyond just reaching for huge incentive packages that others can beat, we would have to focus on education, infrastructure, workforce improvements, etc... I don't see any notable improvements in those aspects on the horizon for this state.

And healthcare.   We are at the bottom on that, too.

Why even publicize these potential deals when the state is obviously being used as leverage and will lose?

Quote from: Jake on March 13, 2023, 05:40:01 PM
Why even publicize these potential deals when the state is obviously being used as leverage and will lose?

You miss all the shots you don't take and Oklahoma is well-positioned for these types of developments.  Domestic manufacturing is seeing a resurgence unlike anything we have seen in decades with batteries, semiconductors and EV's currently leading the way but will evolve into other areas like robotics and drones.  Definitely an exciting time to witness this transformation. 

What NE OK needs to continue doing is building up locations that are "shovel ready" for manufacturing plants.  Fair Oaks is an amazing location but still has a couple years worth of water and wastewater improvements before it can be ready and the neighborhood development is still just a concept.  Port of Inola is better developed but still needs some additional infrastructure improvements and better access to BA/Tulsa via a new Verdigris River bridge.  MAIP has land, infrastructure and utility-rate power and water but lacks the housing plans needed for thousands of new jobs and is too far to commute from Tulsa. 

The Tulsa metro has a skilled industrial workforce and institutions like Tulsa Tech and TWS offer excellent training programs.  What is still lacking are STEM programs and number of STEM degree holders. 

Well 8th times the charm, they say.

Quote from: SXSW on March 13, 2023, 06:04:29 PM
MAIP has land, infrastructure and utility-rate power and water but lacks the housing plans needed for thousands of new jobs and is too far to commute from Tulsa. 

Puts a lot of miles on the car.

I guess VW didn't want to deal with a government run by Nazis again.   :-\

Quote from: tulsabug on March 13, 2023, 07:04:09 PM
I guess VW didn't want to deal with a government run by Nazis again.   :-\

As I've said before I don't think any of these dudes really care - I'm willing to bet that 90% of the old white dudes that run all these companies all have the same viewpoints at Stitt and others. They just hide it better.

The Governor's office needs to learn how to honor a non-disclosure agreement. When we keep leaking these things it's pissing companies off. However, they could have already known VW was likely headed to Canada and they just used this as a PR opportunity - no press is bad press. More all these large companies see Oklahoma and the Tulsa area as a final two is a good thing. Let's take the win where we can, five years ago we wouldn't even have been a consideration.

Canada did offer something we'd never be able to match - access to raw materials and rare earth elements. I think that's something everyone is looking over and hard to compete with that. Part of the deal if they located in Canada was to get these materials at a better price and have essentially first right almost to other companies to be able to buy them. For EV batteries you can't find a better deal than that given the mining and extraction for most of these elements for batteries is still in early stages so there's not a ton of these materials out in the market to acquire easily.

We do need to reflect on these and figure out what can we be improving on and planning to do that will move us from #2 to being #1. For Mid America I keep repeating myself, it's developing a housing and development plan. Until they have that, they are going to be on an uphill battle when there's a development site much closer to a major city. We all know if Pryor was just maybe 10-15 miles east it would be a different story.

Maybe we should seriously be considering adding higher speed rail to the 412/future interstate corridor. Be able to connect Mid America to downtown Tulsa and then on to NWA. On that corridor too you could have stops at Hard Rock/Catoosa, Tulsa International (maybe even future Fair Oaks/Inola stop) to the east and Siloam Springs prior to NWA. Having rail that could go at least 75 mph you could go from downtown Tulsa to Mid America in about 30 mins. Use existing rail right-of-way to Catoosa and then when we're expanding 412 could build out commuter/regional rail in the center of the highway right of way. Do it all together and save some money. Do it electric and power it via GRDA. Could even have it serve freight rail and have a new east-west freight route that connects NWA into Tulsa and would serve Mid America, Port of Inola, and Port of Catoosa all at the same time east-west. Right now there's no east way for freight to move east-west and NWA has very limited freight rail access so that would be a huge win I think for everyone. Just make it multi-purpose uses.

We do need to get serious about expansion of universities and vo-tech to be able to get more in the workforce ready too. I do believe access to housing and services has been the Achilles heel on all of these deals.

Literally every improvement this state needs to make before it's seriously considered for these projects is actively opposed by its leadership. We are moving further backwards every day. Today OK state lawmakers are pulling bible phrases out of their butts to keep corporal punishment of handicapped kids in school legal. I would say Tulsa and OKC can continue to move forward and let the rest of the state flounder, but with our own city council balking at affirming Tulsa as welcoming to LGBTQ residents, we're clearly also going in the wrong direction. This state has no intention of advancing into the future, it wants to revert to the past in every way possible.

And you're 100% right about how we can get these businesses here. The state needs to focus on education, infrastructure, and housing, all of which are being ignored. Clearly child labor and stripping women of all their rights is the next step in the Republican plan to turn this and other states into Somalia, another place VW would never put a battery plant.

Quote from: tulsabug on March 15, 2023, 09:24:27 AM
Literally every improvement this state needs to make before it's seriously considered for these projects is actively opposed by its leadership. We are moving further backwards every day. Today OK state lawmakers are pulling bible phrases out of their butts to keep corporal punishment of handicapped kids in school legal. I would say Tulsa and OKC can continue to move forward and let the rest of the state flounder, but with our own city council balking at affirming Tulsa as welcoming to LGBTQ residents, we're clearly also going in the wrong direction. This state has no intention of advancing into the future, it wants to revert to the past in every way possible.

And you're 100% right about how we can get these businesses here. The state needs to focus on education, infrastructure, and housing, all of which are being ignored. Clearly child labor and stripping women of all their rights is the next step in the Republican plan to turn this and other states into Somalia, another place VW would never put a battery plant.

I just don't buy that is the reason - while I do not agree with anything they are doing and am consistently embarrassed by most everything you just mentioned - these CEO's and decision makers do not care. What they care about is profits and being able to appear progressive enough to appease people.

Are you telling me Florida is some sort of liberal haven? It is the fastest growing state in terms of in-migration of residents than any other US state, by nearly 2x. Oklahoma is in the top ten by the way too. Why are companies flocking to Texas, Florida, Tennessee, etc. They are not any less embarrassing politically than Oklahoma. Frankly I'd argue they are way, way worse. There's blue cities in these states that drive growth these companies like - Tulsa and OKC aren't any different in that regard either for Oklahoma.

Where we have failed is in areas like universities (amongst some other critical areas too) - we should have taxed oil/gas the same as Texas and set up a funding mechanism for OSU/OU systems just like UT/A&M. I'm encouraged Stitt set growth goals for universities but he needs to open his eyes to the fact they can't do that without money.

Quote from: LandArchPoke on March 15, 2023, 10:32:01 AM
I just don't buy that is the reason - while I do not agree with anything they are doing and am consistently embarrassed by most everything you just mentioned - these CEO's and decision makers do not care. What they care about is profits and being able to appear progressive enough to appease people.

Are you telling me Florida is some sort of liberal haven? It is the fastest growing state in terms of in-migration of residents than any other US state, by nearly 2x. Oklahoma is in the top ten by the way too. Why are companies flocking to Texas, Florida, Tennessee, etc. They are not any less embarrassing politically than Oklahoma. Frankly I'd argue they are way, way worse. There's blue cities in these states that drive growth these companies like - Tulsa and OKC aren't any different in that regard either for Oklahoma.

Where we have failed is in areas like universities (amongst some other critical areas too) - we should have taxed oil/gas the same as Texas and set up a funding mechanism for OSU/OU systems just like UT/A&M. I'm encouraged Stitt set growth goals for universities but he needs to open his eyes to the fact they can't do that without money.

It's important, though, to delve deeper into the growth in Florida - it's mainly people retiring which is going to be a large number just because of the size of the boomer generation. California is seeing a negative migration (and it's really small) BUT it's mainly because old people are cashing out their houses and retiring elsewhere - at the same time they are almost totally offset by a younger generation moving to California. And yes, businesses are about profits but they're also about appearances that help their bottom line. Obviously, that matters more to some than others, but VW is trying to court a younger generation so they've been trying to stay out of the culture wars and making a big splash in Oklahoma could've been problematic (Germans don't take risks - it's not how Germans work). Ultimately though, Germans value organization and responsiveness in business, and the OK state government is neither as they're more focused on the culture wars than making sure the trains run on time (or that there are trains at all), which I'm sure was a huge factor in all this. That is one constant about red states - they aren't run well on any level which I think will continue to keep businesses out of them, unless it's a chemical factory or a child labor sweat shop or something that would prefer to not have oversight.

Quote from: LandArchPoke on March 15, 2023, 10:32:01 AM
I just don't buy that is the reason - while I do not agree with anything they are doing and am consistently embarrassed by most everything you just mentioned - these CEO's and decision makers do not care. What they care about is profits and being able to appear progressive enough to appease people.

Are you telling me Florida is some sort of liberal haven? It is the fastest growing state in terms of in-migration of residents than any other US state, by nearly 2x. Oklahoma is in the top ten by the way too. Why are companies flocking to Texas, Florida, Tennessee, etc. They are not any less embarrassing politically than Oklahoma. Frankly I'd argue they are way, way worse. There's blue cities in these states that drive growth these companies like - Tulsa and OKC aren't any different in that regard either for Oklahoma.

Where we have failed is in areas like universities (amongst some other critical areas too) - we should have taxed oil/gas the same as Texas and set up a funding mechanism for OSU/OU systems just like UT/A&M. I'm encouraged Stitt set growth goals for universities but he needs to open his eyes to the fact they can't do that without money.

Tulsa and OKC are NOWHERE near "blue" in any possible frame of reference!


As for OK failings - as I and many have said repeatedly -  Education.  Healthcare.  Infrastructure.    If you do those right, it means you have systems/methods that are going to make all the other things fall in place correctly.   And reds just don't get it.  You can see the destruction of progress in TX, FL, and TN right now with the assault on education - all 3 rushing at breakneck speed to destroy education in those states. 

And TX infrastructure??  Well, if one thinks it is all that great, it only means one hasn't done that much driving through the state, and certainly not off the interstates.   Same with TN.  Don't know about FL - we don't do FL.  Ever. 

Healthcare - TN is the only one I have direct experience with and if I am there and get sick, I am doing anything and everything possible to get out of that state!  Or at least get to the Knoxville area, where you at least have a chance of surviving!

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on March 16, 2023, 10:50:40 AM


Tulsa and OKC are NOWHERE near "blue" in any possible frame of reference!


As for OK failings - as I and many have said repeatedly -  Education.  Healthcare.  Infrastructure.    If you do those right, it means you have systems/methods that are going to make all the other things fall in place correctly.   And reds just don't get it.  You can see the destruction of progress in TX, FL, and TN right now with the assault on education - all 3 rushing at breakneck speed to destroy education in those states. 

And TX infrastructure??  Well, if one thinks it is all that great, it only means one hasn't done that much driving through the state, and certainly not off the interstates.   Same with TN.  Don't know about FL - we don't do FL.  Ever. 

Healthcare - TN is the only one I have direct experience with and if I am there and get sick, I am doing anything and everything possible to get out of that state!  Or at least get to the Knoxville area, where you at least have a chance of surviving!

Purple then.  Look at the last governors race map.  Three counties voted majority Democrat in 2022.  Oklahoma, Cleveland, and Tulsa.  Granted Tulsa was a razor-thin margin, but it was a margin nonetheless.  Putting this on a one-off ballot was a ploy by Stitt.  He knew that if he allowed legalized mj on the ballot last November, he would have likely lost the race and we would have had recreational in the bag (yes that was a pun).  We'll eventually have it but my fear now is there is a bill floating around the OK legislature that could do away with petitions for ballot items.  It's like what a lot of conservatives were screaming about after the 2022 midterms not wanting anyone under 21 to vote.  Good thing that's codified now in the Constitution (Bill of Rights Amendment 26).

Quote from: Hoss on March 16, 2023, 03:04:32 PM
Purple then.  Look at the last governors race map.  Three counties voted majority Democrat in 2022.  Oklahoma, Cleveland, and Tulsa.  Granted Tulsa was a razor-thin margin, but it was a margin nonetheless.  Putting this on a one-off ballot was a ploy by Stitt.  He knew that if he allowed legalized mj on the ballot last November, he would have likely lost the race and we would have had recreational in the bag (yes that was a pun).  We'll eventually have it but my fear now is there is a bill floating around the OK legislature that could do away with petitions for ballot items.  It's like what a lot of conservatives were screaming about after the 2022 midterms not wanting anyone under 21 to vote.  Good thing that's codified now in the Constitution (Bill of Rights Amendment 26).

We certainly cant let mere citizens influence making the law...

https://oklahomawatch.org/2023/02/27/oklahoma-considers-stiffer-petition-requirements-for-state-questions/

https://www.readfrontier.org/stories/how-oklahoma-is-making-it-harder-for-citizen-led-measures-to-get-on-the-ballot/

...or enforcing it...

https://www.publicradiotulsa.org/local-regional/2023-03-14/tulsa-reps-oppose-bill-to-make-all-police-accountability-bodies-2-3-leos

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on March 16, 2023, 10:50:40 AM


Tulsa and OKC are NOWHERE near "blue" in any possible frame of reference!


As for OK failings - as I and many have said repeatedly -  Education.  Healthcare.  Infrastructure.    If you do those right, it means you have systems/methods that are going to make all the other things fall in place correctly.   And reds just don't get it.  You can see the destruction of progress in TX, FL, and TN right now with the assault on education - all 3 rushing at breakneck speed to destroy education in those states.  

And TX infrastructure??  Well, if one thinks it is all that great, it only means one hasn't done that much driving through the state, and certainly not off the interstates.   Same with TN.  Don't know about FL - we don't do FL.  Ever.  

Healthcare - TN is the only one I have direct experience with and if I am there and get sick, I am doing anything and everything possible to get out of that state!  Or at least get to the Knoxville area, where you at least have a chance of surviving!

City of Tulsa voted for Clinton over Trump and Biden over Trump. In particular, midtown and North Tulsa in most areas vote about 80/20 in favor of Democrats. That's as liberal as Austin, San Francisco, and other major 'liberal' city voting patterns. I would define that as a blue dot in the state in a heavily populated area. It's the opposite of similar areas in say Dallas - Highland Park does not vote democrat and same with River Oaks area in Houston and Alamo Heights in San Antonio - can go on. It is actually very rare to have an area of extreme wealth vote so heavily democrat like Maple Ridge/Midtown does. I'm a map and data nerd so I find stuff like that fascinating.

The suburban areas are more conservative in Tulsa obviously than in an area like Austin though. Even the suburbs like Round Rock (Austin's Broken Arrow) votes around 55/45 in favor of democrats usually. Tulsa County tends to be a 50/50 spit because of that and depending on election is can go one way or the other - but the City of Tulsa is not Tulsa County.

This past election cycle was the first time Democrats did not lose a seat in the Oklahoma House, I think they gained 1-2. Tulsa area did add democrats representing the area in the State House this past election cycle. I would consider Lori Dector Wright as one of the more 'liberal' city council members and she represents South Tulsa and even pretty easily beat out a far right challenger in what many people would consider a conservative area of the city.  

Oklahoma County has trended very significantly toward being blue over the past decade and even as of late Payne County is trending the same direction. Cleveland County is similar, it tends to be 50/50 as well. Oklahoma City area did vote in a Democrat into the US House not too long ago and the Republicans had to gerrymander the crap out of the area to prevent those races from staying competitive.

I'll put this out there too - move-in's to Oklahoma the past two years has been about 65,000 people (little over 30k a year). The last Governor's race had a margin of 100-150k. And nearly 1 million registered voters parked their A** on the couch and didn't vote (primarily democrats and independents).

It wouldn't take a lot for Oklahoma to trend one way or the other given we're still a pretty small population state and that our voter participation is SO LOW - if a candidate was able to get Dems and Independents energized and turnout into the 70% range the entire state would flip. Alas, Compared to say a Florida or Texas where even several hundred thousand new residents a year doesn't swing the needle one way or the other because they're already so populated.

If people actually got out and voted in Oklahoma we could change the dynamic a lot. It's easier to blame Republicans though than accept the fact a lot of what is happening in Oklahoma now is Democrat & Independents fault for not showing up to vote. I'm not a Republican either, and until the state party and people who want to see things like education investments, better infrastructure, more economic development do some sole searching and accept we're part at fault and stop the incessant pity party things won't ever change. I blame Moderate Republicans too because they are increasingly staying home too and letting local, state, and national seats be highjacked with obstructionists who have no intention on enacting any policies and are only out for Twitter followers and culture war "wins" so they can grift off people.  

While Republicans do outnumber Democrats - there is a sizable Independent voter population that tends to not vote. If you add in Independents with Democrats there as many as republicans. It's something I can't seem to figure out is how to get Independent voters more involved and get Democrats to show up to the polls. Do they just hate the candidates that are running, do they think there's just no chance to win so they don't bother? I don't know - but it's frustrating to watch. Republicans have no problem in showing up to vote in Oklahoma and that's why are state wide elections tend to be lop sided as of late. When you have 60-70% of them show up and around 50% of Democrats/Independents you get what you get. Nearly 50K Republicans did not vote for Stitt or Walters that voted for Mullin and others. If just a small portion of more democrats showed up both of them would no longer be in office. Only way to change is to get people to vote more or hope the large influx of population to Oklahoma will show up and vote and move things more back to the middle.  

South Carolina has a bill under consideration right now, with 21 sponsors, to make abortion a crime subject to the death penalty for the doctor and the woman.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/pol...alty-rcna75060

Our politics are not unique, or the most radical.

Quote from: tulsabug on March 16, 2023, 09:24:53 AM
It's important, though, to delve deeper into the growth in Florida - it's mainly people retiring which is going to be a large number just because of the size of the boomer generation. California is seeing a negative migration (and it's really small) BUT it's mainly because old people are cashing out their houses and retiring elsewhere - at the same time they are almost totally offset by a younger generation moving to California. And yes, businesses are about profits but they're also about appearances that help their bottom line. Obviously, that matters more to some than others, but VW is trying to court a younger generation so they've been trying to stay out of the culture wars and making a big splash in Oklahoma could've been problematic (Germans don't take risks - it's not how Germans work). Ultimately though, Germans value organization and responsiveness in business, and the OK state government is neither as they're more focused on the culture wars than making sure the trains run on time (or that there are trains at all), which I'm sure was a huge factor in all this. That is one constant about red states - they aren't run well on any level which I think will continue to keep businesses out of them, unless it's a chemical factory or a child labor sweat shop or something that would prefer to not have oversight.

I can tell you 'appearances' is the key word there. They create DEI positions/divisions within the company to appear they are doing things all while still offering females less in compensation, passing over qualified candidate for a buddy's kid, refusing to give paid sick leave, etc. etc.

VW could care less about 'culture war' issues people are talking about in Oklahoma - that gets about zero consideration in the boardroom who makes decisions on where a battery plant, etc. will be located. You're over estimating 'blow back' a firm like that would get - South Carolina is not any less problematic than Oklahoma - sorry. They received a grand total of zero major stories about locating a plant there and what that could mean for their workers in terms of access to medical care for female employees, LGBTQ+ employees, etc. They just do not care - they care about their bonuses and that means how to squeeze margins and places like Oklahoma, South Carolina, Texas, Tennessee, etc. offer that up. Cheap labor, cheap power/utilities, etc. Canada offered up raw material access too, something nothing Oklahoma could ever have competed with - it's likely we could have offered to cover 100% of all their costs and they probably would have picked Canada just to have access to the materials needed to make batteries.

MAIP offers up renewable power sources and cheap prices for that power - that checks every box a company like VW would need to go back to investors and go we are meeting ESG/DEI metrics. No one on the investment side drills into anything beyond that and no one is willing to ask critical questions to someone like VW of why they'd be willing to open a plant in South Carolina or Oklahoma instead of say Minnesota or Colorado.

You are likely spot on in terms of VW getting irritated by lack of professionalism from many in our state (you can make an argument that lack of business professionalism goes hand and hand with the other things). Not enough Oklahoma political leadership takes economic development seriously. That's the reason states like Texas blow us out of the water in terms of business expansion - they've had tax incentives, etc. down to a science for a decade plus while we've done very little to counter that. Kansas is getting their act together as well while a lot of our political leaders are trying to find their head up their a**. The Governor's office doesn't take non-disclosures and other agreements seriously, etc. Panasonic had to threaten the Governor's office to stop waiting and resulted in that dumb press conference at the end of session last year to get the legislature to finally vote on the bill. Kansas voted on their incentive bill pretty much first thing in their legislative session and then moved on to culture war BS - while we did the opposite. We likely sunk any chance we had with Panasonic because of that - not because we were having debates over culture war BS but because we didn't prioritize their corporate handout first. Somewhat ironic too. I do feel sorry for a lot of our economic development folks who work really hard just to have a lot of leadership not take things seriously.

Everyone got upset over Tesla snubbing us and who is lighting fires under the culture war stuff? Didn't just about everyone blame Republicans here for us not being in a place we could support Tesla - Elon didn't pass us over because we are too conservative lol. He's not an outlier either in the corporate CEO/management level - he just says the quiet part loudly and publicly because he feeds off attention wether it's negative or positive.

More business leaders have to push our legislature to prioritize economic development and other issues to be first in session then move on to anything/everything else they want to get in front of cameras for and grandstand about.

I see encouraging signs. OSU has some great leadership and their health center is one of the fastest growing medical programs in the US and they can have a massive impact on rural health if they keep on the trajectory they are on. TCC and Tulsa County was the first place in the US to have free access to Community college by nearly a decade. It was funny when San Francisco passed free community college a few years back and claimed they were the first to ever think of the idea and do it - wrong, Tulsa beat them by a decade almost. Who cares about facts though. OSU could easily get enrollment above 40k - they should make an aggressive push for post graduate degrees and concentrate that in Tulsa. Stillwater campus is undergrad and Tulsa is research and graduate focused for them. OU Polytechnic has an opportunity to be very impactful. Would like to see OU/TU make a push to expand their medical program. It would be nice to see a full four year university established in Tulsa - take either the metro TCC campus or Southeast TCC campus and convert it to a four year institution. Call it Tulsa Polytechnic or something, focus it on tech/engineering and programs don't overlap as much with OSU/OU. ORU enrollment is growing - they could really be a big driver to Tulsa if they keep going. TU seems to be getting its act together too. I see a lot of things to be hopeful about. Tulsa and NE Oklahoma just five years ago was even in consideration for a lot of massive projects - while it sucks to lose - being in the top two for some many of these is a huge leap forward. I'm hopeful.

I'm not saying ignore the bad things Oklahoma is doing politically, but we can't be lazy and just lump that into why companies are passing us over as the main and only thing because if that was the case Apple, Google, Goldman Sachs, Schwab, JP Morgan Chase, State Farm, etc. etc. would not be moving HQs or building out massive regional campus in Dallas, Austin, Atlanta, Nashville, etc. Oklahoma could easily be the next Georgia and there's a ton of momentum in the 44/412 corridor between OKC-Tulsa-NWA wether we acknowledge it or not. Until economic development, incentives, etc. are taken more seriously here we're likely to stay as a back up for a while.

Quote from: swake on March 16, 2023, 07:30:06 PM
South Carolina has a bill under consideration right now, with 21 sponsors, to make abortion a crime subject to the death penalty for the doctor and the woman.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/pol...alty-rcna75060

Our politics are not unique, or the most radical.

Exactly. Another example: https://theblackwallsttimes.com/2023/03/16/chicago-mayor-hopeful-woke-teaching-leads-to-criminal-behavior/ (https://theblackwallsttimes.com/2023/03/16/chicago-mayor-hopeful-woke-teaching-leads-to-criminal-behavior/)

One of the two final candidates for Chicago Mayor.... Chicago. Beat out current mayor and others to go into the final run-off between him and one other candidate.

Saying woke = being a criminal. Guess we should expect Chicago to close up shop soon, no hope - politics there are too embarrassing - no one will live there anymore. 

Positive news for Fair Oaks which could be a much better site for a manufacturing plant since it is in Tulsa and not an hour away.

https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/plan-to-create-large-employment-center-in-east-tulsa-gets-another-green-light/article_a1bea552-c831-11ed-8d7c-074adda4232e.html (https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/plan-to-create-large-employment-center-in-east-tulsa-gets-another-green-light/article_a1bea552-c831-11ed-8d7c-074adda4232e.html)

Quote from: swake on March 16, 2023, 07:30:06 PM
South Carolina has a bill under consideration right now, with 21 sponsors, to make abortion a crime subject to the death penalty for the doctor and the woman.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/pol...alty-rcna75060

Our politics are not unique, or the most radical.

Nope.  There is more than enough ignorance and stupidstition to go around, across the nation!

Quote from: LandArchPoke on March 16, 2023, 06:27:09 PM


If people actually got out and voted in Oklahoma we could change the dynamic a lot. It's easier to blame Republicans though than accept the fact a lot of what is happening in Oklahoma now is Democrat & Independents fault for not showing up to vote. I'm not a Republican either, and until the state party and people who want to see things like education investments, better infrastructure, more economic development do some sole searching and accept we're part at fault and stop the incessant pity party things won't ever change. I blame Moderate Republicans too because they are increasingly staying home too and letting local, state, and national seats be highjacked with obstructionists who have no intention on enacting any policies and are only out for Twitter followers and culture war "wins" so they can grift off people.  

While Republicans do outnumber Democrats - there is a sizable Independent voter population that tends to not vote. If you add in Independents with Democrats there as many as republicans. It's something I can't seem to figure out is how to get Independent voters more involved and get Democrats to show up to the polls. Do they just hate the candidates that are running, do they think there's just no chance to win so they don't bother? I don't know - but it's frustrating to watch. Republicans have no problem in showing up to vote in Oklahoma and that's why are state wide elections tend to be lop sided as of late. When you have 60-70% of them show up and around 50% of Democrats/Independents you get what you get. Nearly 50K Republicans did not vote for Stitt or Walters that voted for Mullin and others. If just a small portion of more democrats showed up both of them would no longer be in office. Only way to change is to get people to vote more or hope the large influx of population to Oklahoma will show up and vote and move things more back to the middle.  

Apathy has always been a problem.  My first efforts at voter registration activities began mid/late 60's, starting when I was about 14-15.  Talking one on one, people will often sound enthused and ready to go do the right thing... vote!   Then when you do get feedback, you find they didn't even bother to register!  You learn to proselytize all you can and just keep on moving, cause with some it "takes" but most it never will.  

Goes to the quote at the bottom of my profile,

"I don't share my thoughts because I think it will change the minds of people who think differently.  I share my thoughts to show the people who already think like me that they are not alone."


Corollary to the early voter recruitment efforts were protests against unjust wars.  Starting with VietNam, and most recently our Imperialistic Voyeurism in Iraq.   First one got some great doses of tear gas at TU!  More recently, technology has made it possible to post on places like here - much more comfortable than breathing tear gas!  And may be slightly more effective?

Oh, yeah - and literally getting kicked out - physically picked up and thrown out the front door - of the church I had attended for years due to trying to get people to donate blood to the Red Cross in 1968, while the RC was desperately pleading for donations!  (Because it was under the auspices of the Moratorium on the War in VietNam.)

Ignorance and Stupidstition.

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on March 23, 2023, 01:08:58 PM
Corollary to the early voter recruitment efforts were protests against unjust wars.  Starting with VietNam, and most recently our Imperialistic Voyeurism in Iraq.   First one got some great doses of tear gas at TU!  More recently, technology has made it possible to post on places like here - much more comfortable than breathing tear gas!  And may be slightly more effective?
...Moratorium on the War in VietNam.)

I kind of remember a Moratorium on the War in Viet Nam day when I was in College.  I was against the War but have always been reluctant to join mob activities.  Mom and I went fishing on the Chesapeake Bay.

Quote from: Red Arrow on March 23, 2023, 02:10:47 PM
I kind of remember a Moratorium on the War in Viet Nam day when I was in College.  I was against the War but have always been reluctant to join mob activities.  Mom and I went fishing on the Chesapeake Bay.

Much the same as today.  Half the country was blind fascists and the other half knew what was going on in VietNam was wrong and should be stopped.  Nixon's first year saw over 10,000 new dead US military.  Tulsa Whirled used to print the casualty lists.

Protests here were at the U on TU campus and TPD got to play with all their tear gas toys against peaceful marchers/protestors.

"If you've got a global corporation that is concerned about the look of things and actually is concerned about the quality of life all their employees will have, sometimes Oklahoma makes itself tough to sell."

https://www.readfrontier.org/stories/why-three-major-companies-have-passed-on-expanding-in-oklahoma/

Quote from: SXSW on March 07, 2023, 10:27:35 AM
Yes, and unlike MAIP it's 30 miles from downtown Tulsa and even closer to parts of east Tulsa and Broken Arrow.  It has rail access and a barge slip on the Verdigris River.  It would be a fantastic site for one of these megafactories.

(https://www.tulsasfuture.com/media/userfiles/subsite_146/images/news/tulsa_Port_of_inola.png)

Keep this on your radar. Large green manufacturer is in play for this site.

Quote from: Tulsan on June 20, 2022, 11:48:36 AM
Take it with a grain of salt - because nobody knows - but I heard rumors that Panasonic may split the factory and do both sites to ensure they can fill all positions.

This is still in play also.

Quote from: Tulsan on April 12, 2023, 08:54:22 PM
Keep this on your radar. Large green manufacturer is in play for this site.

Both Pinnell and Stitt said today that there's about a half dozen thousand plus employers scouting Tulsa/NE Oklahoma and most of these are possibly making announcements in the next 60-90 days if Oklahoma will be picked as the winner. They didn't give much detail to the industry or type of employers though.

There's a lot going on behind the scenes for sure. It's promising. It's been really hard seeing what's passed us over but it has really, really gotten us a lot of attention nationally being in the top two in so many other searches.

Oklahoma used to not even get a look in the initial phases of site selection, so to be a finalist in so many searches, particularly it being pretty much only Tulsa/NE OK too these employers have circled and not OKC is a pretty big deal. We'll eventually start landing a few of these and we could really be on the verge of a big tipping point growth wise.

Our growth already has ticked up to over 1% per year and if we land 1-2 of these we could easily see growth rates in the 2-3% per year range MSA wide over the next decade. Could easily hit the 20-30% range from last census to next which would put us into the fastest growing MSAs. We're solidly moving up each year but one or two of these projects would really be a game changer for NE Oklahoma. Tulsa has gotten much closer to closing the percentage growth rate with OKC and other metros and we could easily see these types of project push up closer to Austin/NWA/Research Triangle type growth rates. That's good and bad I guess if it happens.

Quote from: Tulsan on April 12, 2023, 08:54:22 PM
Keep this on your radar. Large green manufacturer is in play for this site.

https://www.readfrontier.org/stories/international-clean-energy-company-eyes-oklahoma-as-lawmakers-weigh-incentives/

QuoteThe international clean energy company Enel wants to build a solar panel manufacturing facility in Oklahoma and Gov. Kevin Stitt is asking state lawmakers to support an undisclosed incentive package to seal the deal.

Now that is cool.

Quote from: Tulsan on April 13, 2023, 03:05:06 PM
https://www.readfrontier.org/stories/international-clean-energy-company-eyes-oklahoma-as-lawmakers-weigh-incentives/

Of course the legislature is the hold up once again lol.

While our politics aren't unique, what is, is the lack of speed and professionalism of getting packages together with little drama.

Why does Oklahoma just not have a set economic incentives program similar to Texas and other states that would allow for less BS from the legislature in having to approve every single one of these each time a company is down to the final sites?

Quote from: LandArchPoke on April 13, 2023, 03:39:08 PM
Of course the legislature is the hold up once again lol.

While our politics aren't unique, what is, is the lack of speed and professionalism of getting packages together with little drama.

Why does Oklahoma just not have a set economic incentives program similar to Texas and other states that would allow for less BS from the legislature in having to approve every single one of these each time a company is down to the final sites?

We used to have the "Quality Jobs Act", not sure where that stands today.

Quote from: swake on April 13, 2023, 03:40:16 PM
We used to have the "Quality Jobs Act", not sure where that stands today.

It's still in place and is a good tool - they really need something else set like the Quality Jobs Act - that is for some of these bigger plays. That's the reason Texas has ate our lunch for so long is things like the Texas Enterprise Fund and other things that really allowed them to catch 1,000 plus or HQ relocations better than other states.

If there really is a half dozen companies that would be 1,000+ employee operations with Tulsa/NE Oklahoma as a finalists why not just do something similar to that and set up a fund with some of the revenue surplus and funds left over from Panasonic. I can think of a lot worse ways to spend the money, some of it should go to the rainy day fund but while we have some many employers so close to picking Oklahoma seems like a missed opportunity if we don't do something with the surplus.  

Quote from: LandArchPoke on April 13, 2023, 03:39:08 PMWhy does Oklahoma just not have a set economic incentives program similar to Texas and other states that would allow for less BS from the legislature in having to approve every single one of these each time a company is down to the final sites?

Because we do it the Oklahoma way.

Did you really ask or was that a rhetorical question?

Quote from: Tulsan on April 13, 2023, 03:05:06 PM

https://www.readfrontier.org/stories/international-clean-energy-company-eyes-oklahoma-as-lawmakers-weigh-incentives/

Neat. Hopefully Stitt wont try to woo them to the state over some lite beers watching a cockfight.

Quote from: Red Arrow on April 13, 2023, 04:21:12 PM
Because we do it the Oklahoma way.

Did you really ask or was that a rhetorical question?

100% rhetorical haha

Quote from: patric on April 13, 2023, 04:35:17 PM
Neat. Hopefully Stitt wont try to woo them to the state over some lite beers watching a cockfight.

Don't give McCall/Stitt any ideas lol. Only non "woke" lite beers too.

Quote from: patric on April 13, 2023, 04:35:17 PM
Neat. Hopefully Stitt wont try to woo them to the state over some lite beers watching a cockfight.

Bud Light?

I hate that Republicans are making me support Bud Light now. I mean, the enemy of my enemy is my friend and so on but - geez - this is almost a bridge too far.  ;D

Quote from: tulsabug on April 14, 2023, 05:52:09 AM
I hate that Republicans are making me support Bud Light now. I mean, the enemy of my enemy is my friend and so on but - geez - this is almost a bridge too far.  ;D

Looks like it's "official" that Panasonic is splitting the plants between KC and our area like many had suspected would happen.

$245 million in site costs is the last step to finalizing the deal. I'm guessing that was the amount that would have came from the TIF that was voted down. Will be interesting to see the work around to this.

Texas has a similar property tax rebate that just recently ended (I suspect why Oklahoma is catching the eye of a lot of large manufactures too). Maybe the state could establish an ad valorem rebate that bypasses county officials and is directly approved by school boards or something like it has worked in Texas too.

It seems like 3500 jobs and $5 billion investment would be worth an extra $245M but what do I know

Quote from: SXSW on April 14, 2023, 10:51:55 PM
It seems like 3500 jobs and $5 billion investment would be worth an extra $245M but what do I know

There has to be a way that we end up losing out overall.

Quote from: tulsabug on April 14, 2023, 05:52:09 AM
I hate that Republicans are making me support Bud Light now. I mean, the enemy of my enemy is my friend and so on but - geez - this is almost a bridge too far.  ;D

A-B financed the fight against eliminating 3.2 beer in Oklahoma as well as medical marijuana. Thank God it was only organized crime that financed the fight against legalization, but I digress..

OKLAHOMA CITY — The state has inked a contract for Panasonic to open a massive electric vehicle battery plant at the MidAmerica Industrial Park in Pryor.
But a dispute over who will pay for roughly $245 million in site work at the industrial park means the agreement isn't a done deal yet.
After the Oklahoma House saw a copy of the agreement on Wednesday, Speaker Charles McCall, R-Atoka, said the deal does not meet the qualifications for Panasonic to be eligible for $698 million in economic development incentives.

https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/govt-and-politics/oklahoma-signs-deal-for-panasonic-battery-plant-in-pryor-but-theres-a-catch/article_1ab4f740-dae3-11ed-974f-6b31d097d0f6.html

Quote from: patric on April 15, 2023, 11:53:40 AM
After the Oklahoma House saw a copy of the agreement on Wednesday, Speaker Charles McCall, R-Atoka, said the deal does not meet the qualifications for Panasonic to be eligible for $698 million in economic development incentives.

Since it is not near Atoka.

Quote from: Red Arrow on April 15, 2023, 02:56:32 PM
Since it is not near Atoka.

My guess is it's because there is a contingency of the 'infrastructure' cost - the $250 million ish #

The requirement to get the LEAD Act $ is a binding, no contingency agreement - which technically it doesn't appear that Panasonic has signed one.

Doesn't mean they can't easily work this out. He's posturing to get the tax cuts passed - he's been pushing for the elimination of state income tax for a while. Stitt is in agreement there, the Senate does not appear to be interested in doing any resident income tax reduction.

Let's see how dramatic Republicans can be with each other  ::)  ::) and I don't get why they are having this discussion/debate now and didn't hammer this out a longtime ago. This is the frustrating part of Oklahoma is they don't seem to ever take any type of economic development deal seriously.

But... even if the money goes back in the general revenue fund they can just reallocate it back to Panasonic anyways.

Want to see more details with performance triggers before committing to Panasonic.  Looks inviting on the surface.  This would benefit Tulsa metro.

Quote from: Red Arrow on April 15, 2023, 02:56:32 PM
Since it is not near Atoka.

Someone will buy some 'services' from his consulting firm and things will be ok then.

Quote from: LandArchPoke on April 15, 2023, 03:40:23 PM
I don't get why they are having this discussion/debate now and didn't hammer this out a longtime ago. This is the frustrating part of Oklahoma is they don't seem to ever take any type of economic development deal seriously.

But Im sure Panasonic just cant wait to jump right in...

(https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_fit-560w,f_auto,q_auto:best/rockcms/2023-04/230418-oklahoma-mccurtain-county-officials-mn-1545-a01060.jpg) 

Company Planning To Build Lithium Refinery In Oklahoma
A new company is planning to build a lithium refinery in Oklahoma.
https://www.newson6.com/story/655fc60db7abe706bd817bc5/company-planning-to-build-lithium-refinery-in-oklahoma (https://www.newson6.com/story/655fc60db7abe706bd817bc5/company-planning-to-build-lithium-refinery-in-oklahoma)

A Connecticut energy startup company plans to build a lithium refinery just outside Tulsa, on an unspecified 66-acre site with access to the Kerr-McClellan Navigation System. The Mid-America Industrial Park fits their description of the property and has been actively recruiting industries related to electric vehicle production.

Stardust Power LLC announced plans in May to build a lithium refinery capable of processing 55,100 tons of battery-grade lithium annually. Their product would be destined for the electric vehicle market.

The Stardust Oklahoma plant announcement was included in an investor fact sheet about a planned combination between Stardust and Global Power Acquisition leading to listing on the Nasdaq exchange, expected in early 2024. The company says the State of Oklahoma and municipal incentives would support the project, in addition to federal grants and loans.

The company report says Stardust plans to build in Oklahoma to take advantage of nearby access to raw materials in Arkansas and Texas, and battery and vehicle manufacturers in several states. EV manufacturer Canoo has a battery module assembly plant at Mid-America, and a vehicle assembly plant in Oklahoma City that is ramping up operations.

The company expects to recruit and retrain old and gas workers to help build the workforce they need and utilize oil and gas wastewater as one source for production.

The company states the plant will utilize some renewable energy for production, which is available at Mid-America, and produce zero liquid discharge.

Below is Stardust Power LLC's release:

    "Stardust Power's strategy is to become a leading producer of battery grade lithium products in the U.S. The Company believes that designing a large central refinery optimized for multiple inputs of brine lithium feedstock provides an opportunity to scale production rather than the dependence on single assets. The proposed new battery-grade lithium refining facility in Greater Tulsa, Oklahoma, is expected to produce 50,000 metric tonnes per year of American battery-grade lithium, supporting the expansion of domestic manufacturing and helping to secure U.S. energy independence by reducing EV supply chain dependence on foreign sources of material. This is anticipated to reduce the reliance on lithium imports from China which could be threatened by increasing Chinese export controls, among other factors.

    "The Oklahoma refinery site is shovel ready. The site has access to existing power (including from renewable sources), water supply, wastewater treatment, and natural gas service, as well as connections to major railways for material delivery and offtake. Once operational, the refinery is anticipated to draw employees from the surrounding area through workforce training programs and job placement partnerships.

    "Stardust Power aims to solve one of the largest challenges of the energy transition – reliable access to the critical minerals that will make the transition a reality," said Roshan Pujari, CEO of Stardust Power. "Refined lithium is the key component in the lithium-ion batteries which make the proliferation of EVs, and decarbonization of transportation, possible. Domestic production of battery-grade lithium is also a crucial factor to American national security and leadership in the energy transition, which Stardust Power is working to address.""

.

Painful news on the Oklahoma Panasonic EV Battery Plant: Panasonic drops plan for EV battery factory in Oklahoma:

Difficult to stomach this link: https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/Panasonic-drops-plan-for-EV-battery-factory-in-Oklahoma (https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/Panasonic-drops-plan-for-EV-battery-factory-in-Oklahoma)


Painful gut punch to Oklahoma and the Tulsa Metro area which seemed to be on the verge on phenomenal growth into the next decade.

Pulling for Tulsa to rebound and get better development for its metro area.   Look at it this way, may have been a blessing in disguise--much like when OKC lost out to Indianapolis for the United Airlines Maintenance facility--MAPS Capital Improvements idea was created.  OKC has been on the move ever since.
.

I don't think local government is the problem. The Governor and his lackey are publicly attacking the public schools, and the Governor also announced a ban on anything related to diversity, equity, and inclusion. Pretty sure Panasonic is a large corporation that takes DEI pretty seriously. I know the Governor's policy wouldn't apply directly to a private company, but it says everything about what our state is about. There are also plenty of private companies being attacked for their DEI programs as it relates to hiring, and making that even a possiblity here will dissuade big businesses. I wish they'd start saying it out loud so that the state legislature and our electorate will get the message. If this had been the atmosphere in the early 2000's when I moved back to Oklahoma, there is zero chance I'd move here either, same if I were a decision maker for a big company. I honestly consider getting the heck out every other day, but I do love my part of Tulsa and the people I associate with, and that keeps me here so far.

I would guess this is mostly based on lower demand for EV's and batteries and not anything Oklahoma did or didn't do.  We would've won the plant that went to Kansas if not for the TIF which still isn't what Panasonic asked for infrastructure upgrades.

Quote from: SXSW on December 20, 2023, 12:59:20 PM
I would guess this is mostly based on lower demand for EV's and batteries and not anything Oklahoma did or didn't do.  We would've won the plant that went to Kansas if not for the TIF which still isn't what Panasonic asked for infrastructure upgrades.

There seem to be a number of factors affecting the EV market slow down. Here is a pretty good article from the BBC posted in November 2023 that discusses several of the issues.

https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20231108-three-big-reasons-americans-havent-rapidly-adopted-evs (https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20231108-three-big-reasons-americans-havent-rapidly-adopted-evs)

Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on December 21, 2023, 10:44:04 AM
There seem to be a number of factors affecting the EV market slow down. Here is a pretty good article from the BBC posted in November 2023 that discusses several of the issues.

https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20231108-three-big-reasons-americans-havent-rapidly-adopted-evs (https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20231108-three-big-reasons-americans-havent-rapidly-adopted-evs)

Would like to have an electric.  Talked to a guy a couple weeks ago that got a 2022 Rivian and after about 5 months, he still likes it.  With qualifications, like charging - must plan carefully.  Still too expensive for me though - not gonna pay $75,000 for a used one.  Or a new one...