I attempted to insert the images, but I am apparently incapable of understanding how to accomplish it.
(https://flco.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/tulsa-1-11.2018-1024x571.jpg%3Cbr%20/%3Ehttps://flco.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/tulsa-2-11.2018-1024x990.jpg)
(http://[https://flco.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/tulsa-1-11.2018-1024x571.jpg%5D)
(http://[https://flco.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/tulsa-2-11.2018-1024x990.jpg%5D)
News reports indicate the original contract between PAC Trust and Indianapolis developer Flaherty & Collins expired last year, but the entities are still working together. These "new" renderings showed up on F&C's website sometime last year ---- the nearly 30-story tower is "new."
Current posting with images on Flaherty & Collins website: https://flco.com/company-properties/the-annex/
The Annex, a partnership with the Tulsa Performing Arts Center (TPAC) Trust, includes 240 luxury apartment homes and resort-style amenity spaces including a pool, fitness center, aqua lounge, outdoor grilling stations and bike storage space with repair tools.
Annex would also include a 35,000 square foot grocery (Reasor's in original plan), and an additional 7,000 square feet of additional retail space, along with 636 spaces in a multi-story parking garage that will be shared with TPAC guests.
Yes these renderings came out some time ago. Heard on the news this morning that they intend to proceed with this project and are eager to get going, but need to come to a new agreement since covid put them on pause and the contract expired last year.
Sounds like the project is still a go. This would obviously be a huge project for downtown. They also said they reached out to the city to ask about new skyscrapers. City said there's things pending, but nothing confirmed yet.
That would be great if the tower is still in the works. The two new 11-12 story towers going up right now are pretty cool, but an actual addition to the skyline would be very welcome, especially if it fills in a parking crater! Heck, I could even go for a unit myself, I've been pondering a move to the downtown area for awhile, but want to hold off a couple years for the housing market to cool off a bit and some of these projects to get finished first.
Quote from: TulsaBeMore on July 14, 2021, 01:37:44 AM
I attempted to insert the images, but I am apparently incapable of understanding how to accomplish it.
(https://flco.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/tulsa-1-11.2018-1024x571.jpg%3Cbr%20/%3Ehttps://flco.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/tulsa-2-11.2018-1024x990.jpg)
(http://[https://flco.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/tulsa-1-11.2018-1024x571.jpg%5D)
(http://[https://flco.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/tulsa-2-11.2018-1024x990.jpg%5D)
News reports indicate the original contract between PAC Trust and Indianapolis developer Flaherty & Collins expired last year, but the entities are still working together. These "new" renderings showed up on F&C's website sometime last year ---- the nearly 30-story tower is "new."
Current posting with images on Flaherty & Collins website: https://flco.com/company-properties/the-annex/
The Annex, a partnership with the Tulsa Performing Arts Center (TPAC) Trust, includes 240 luxury apartment homes and resort-style amenity spaces including a pool, fitness center, aqua lounge, outdoor grilling stations and bike storage space with repair tools.
Annex would also include a 35,000 square foot grocery (Reasor's in original plan), and an additional 7,000 square feet of additional retail space, along with 636 spaces in a multi-story parking garage that will be shared with TPAC guests.
I wonder if the moderators could update the forum to a more modern format where you can "drag & drop" or "insert" images?
Surprised this project still is alive... would be a game changer in my opinion! Could really improve living in downtown.
The best method I've found for uploading images is uploading a photo to imgur and then getting the forum code. Works fairly well.
(https://flco.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/tulsa-2-11.2018-1024x990.jpg)
Here is the rendering.
Quote from: TheArtist on July 14, 2021, 08:51:46 AM
I wonder if the moderators could update the forum to a more modern format where you can "drag & drop" or "insert" images?
We had something like that for a while but there were too many inappropriate images.
Project is still very much alive and moving along.
Just saw this story on it as well:
https://www.publicradiotulsa.org/post/operating-trust-says-sale-tulsa-pac-parking-lot-still-works#stream/0
Interesting that the story does say that Reasor's has pulled out of the discussions but that a full-service grocer is still part of the plans. They have confirmed the hotel component as well which means the high-rise version of the renderings is probably what we'd see built. Number of parking spaces is down to 450 ish from the 600+ range originally.
Wonder who the full-service grocer would be if not Reasor's. Not sure if Whole Foods would be interested in a third location or not, they have anchored a lot of similar developments and this developer even built the Whole Foods anchored mixed-use development in Indianapolis. 360Market Square (https://flco.com/company-properties/360marketsquare/)
They've also built one for Kroger in downtown Indianapolis in addition to that Whole Foods development (https://flco.com/company-properties/axis/). Obviously Kroger wouldn't be an option here.
If Reasor's wasn't interested the only other options might be a Whole Foods or a Walmart Neighborhood Market.
So, the tower is the apartment building? Seems really tall for 240 apartments. If this hotel is on second street, it is actually further from the PAC entrance than the Hyatt. And is another hotel really what downtown needs?
My understanding was, at least several years ago, the PAC trust was adamant about a full-service grocery store no matter how unrealistic the demand.
I put this project in the category of "nice ideas, but not going to happen in the next 5 years."
Quote from: DTowner on July 22, 2021, 04:15:27 PM
So, the tower is the apartment building? Seems really tall for 240 apartments. If this hotel is on second street, it is actually further from the PAC entrance than the Hyatt. And is another hotel really what downtown needs?
My understanding was, at least several years ago, the PAC trust was adamant about a full-service grocery store no matter how unrealistic the demand.
I put this project in the category of "nice ideas, but not going to happen in the next 5 years."
The residential is the tower, and if you consider the average unit size of most apartments and that the residential portion would be built over a little under 1/4 of that block. You're talking maybe being able to fit 10-12 units per floor which would mean 20-24 floors for the residential portion.
I believe the brand for hotel would most likely be AC Hotel (Marriot brand) - they're a great brand and mostly built in urban areas. I'd consider them a slightly more fancy version of Aloft but not quite to a 4-star type hotel level of service. I can easily see this being a good fit for that project given it would align with PAC visitor demographics and offer a slightly cheaper option to Hyatt Regency next door to the PAC too.
I think the PAC trust is right on with wanting a grocer in order for the project to be worth it. If you think about it, this block makes the most sense for a grocer downtown long term. It's within walking distance of all the major office buildings, not too far from many of the convention hotels, and along one of the few east west street that actually don't dead-end at the IDL plus having visibility along 2nd to the north and Cincinnati for people wanting to stop on their way out of downtown too. It's also smack in the middle of all the new housing that has been built downtown too to the east, west, and north of that site. I frankly can't think of a better location downtown for a grocer than that block so I'm glad they have been holding out and making sure that is part of the project.
The downtown hotel market really serves a broader area than just downtown too so there's a good amount of demand - there's extremely limited options for decent hotels anywhere in the midtown area.
Quote from: LandArchPoke on July 22, 2021, 05:41:07 PM
The downtown hotel market really serves a broader area than just downtown too so there's a good amount of demand - there's extremely limited options for decent hotels anywhere in the midtown area.
There are hotels in midtown? Where? I agree with your point, but this is something I have never understood, that Cherry Street, Brookside, Maple Ridge, Utica Square, the TU area, the Southroads area, none of them have ANY hotels. In fact, there's not a hotel in uptown either, the new hotel conversion on Boulder will be the first.
Quote from: swake on July 22, 2021, 05:48:15 PM
There are hotels in midtown? Where? I agree with your point, but this is something I have never understood, that Cherry Street, Brookside, Maple Ridge, Utica Square, the TU area, the Southroads area, none of them have ANY hotels. In fact, there's not a hotel in uptown either, the new hotel conversion on Boulder will be the first.
I'd consider the hotels along I-44 as 'midtown' but I wouldn't really consider any or at least very, very few as 'decent' hotels. Ambassador is in Uptown now so with the Brut hotel that'd be two in Uptown. Campbell is along 11th, but it's also a very small hotel.
I have also wondered why Utica Square didn't have a hotel especially with St. John's across the street. Cherry Street is close enough to downtown it probably doesn't need it's own hotel but the vacant lot along Utica would make sense to develop as hotels with other mixed-uses. Brookside could use a hotel or two as well especially being walk-able to the Gathering Place when the southern portions are completed.
Quote from: swake on July 22, 2021, 05:48:15 PM
There are hotels in midtown? Where? I agree with your point, but this is something I have never understood, that Cherry Street, Brookside, Maple Ridge, Utica Square, the TU area, the Southroads area, none of them have ANY hotels. In fact, there's not a hotel in uptown either, the new hotel conversion on Boulder will be the first.
That's why I stay downtown when I'm back. The only other place I might go to would be the Marriott at 71st & Lewis. The area around 31st & Memorial was okay back in 1998, but I've seen too much of there and the ones at 41st & Memorial on "The First 48". Can't stand casinos, and I wouldn't spend enough time there, and 71st & 169, no way. Everything out there is here in Phoenix with the exception of a couple of places.
Besides, I like the view downtown.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-vrbBH68/0/b3937ba6/M/i-vrbBH68-M.jpg) (https://kevinallsop.smugmug.com/Tulsa-2020/n-S5Fm4M/i-vrbBH68/A)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-bGnhqQn/0/dc914a9a/M/i-bGnhqQn-M.jpg) (https://kevinallsop.smugmug.com/Tulsa-2020/n-S5Fm4M/i-bGnhqQn/A)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-H2c7BcD/0/57b17451/M/i-H2c7BcD-M.jpg) (https://kevinallsop.smugmug.com/Tulsa/n-9wf5f4/i-H2c7BcD/A)
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Quote from: LandArchPoke on July 22, 2021, 06:27:25 PM
I'd consider the hotels along I-44 as 'midtown' but I wouldn't really consider any or at least very, very few as 'decent' hotels. Ambassador is in Uptown now so with the Brut hotel that'd be two in Uptown. Campbell is along 11th, but it's also a very small hotel.
I have also wondered why Utica Square didn't have a hotel especially with St. John's across the street. Cherry Street is close enough to downtown it probably doesn't need it's own hotel but the vacant lot along Utica would make sense to develop as hotels with other mixed-uses. Brookside could use a hotel or two as well especially being walk-able to the Gathering Place when the southern portions are completed.
Agreed. It seems Brookside would be an ideal spot for like a little boutique hotel with the Gathering Place right there.
Flaherty & Collins bought the land
https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/pac-trust-approves-sale-of-adjacent-parking-lot-for-mixed-use-project/article_ee9212b0-18bf-11ec-9c48-cbe47487af9a.html (https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/pac-trust-approves-sale-of-adjacent-parking-lot-for-mixed-use-project/article_ee9212b0-18bf-11ec-9c48-cbe47487af9a.html)
Quote from: SXSW on September 20, 2021, 05:28:35 PM
Flaherty & Collins bought the land
https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/pac-trust-approves-sale-of-adjacent-parking-lot-for-mixed-use-project/article_ee9212b0-18bf-11ec-9c48-cbe47487af9a.html (https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/pac-trust-approves-sale-of-adjacent-parking-lot-for-mixed-use-project/article_ee9212b0-18bf-11ec-9c48-cbe47487af9a.html)
That's really good news.
I was told by an attorney for the PAC Trust back in 2018, after Reasor's had dropped out, that they were requiring a grocery agreement to be in place before allowing the deal to proceed. She said finding a new operator was proving to be one of the multiple hurdles they had no ready solution for.
Seems like they finally got it all figured out. Excited to hear what they end up doing.
Let's go!! This is big news... fingers crossed for a grocery store!
Quote from: SXSW on September 20, 2021, 05:28:35 PM
Flaherty & Collins bought the land
https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/pac-trust-approves-sale-of-adjacent-parking-lot-for-mixed-use-project/article_ee9212b0-18bf-11ec-9c48-cbe47487af9a.html (https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/pac-trust-approves-sale-of-adjacent-parking-lot-for-mixed-use-project/article_ee9212b0-18bf-11ec-9c48-cbe47487af9a.html)
The updated story has some great info.
QuoteThe proposed multi-use site, dubbed the Annex, would include a 20,000-square-foot grocery store, 10,000 square feet of additional retail space, a 240-unit apartment building and a boutique hotel. The project would also include a parking garage with approximately 450 spaces, which could be utilized by visitors both to the Tulsa PAC and City Hall.
Flaherty & Collins Properties' proposal is essentially the same one it first presented in 2017 to the Tulsa PAC Trust. The principal difference is the addition of the 100-room hotel, which will be operated by Origin Hotel. It will be the first Origin Hotel in Oklahoma.
Regarding the hotel - Origin is boutique chain under the Wyndham badge, with just a few locations - Raleigh, Lexington, a couple of Colorado spots, and coming soon in Austin. Looks like a pretty nifty concept. https://www.originhotel.com/
QuoteRyan Cronk, a partner with Flaherty & Collins, said that a company has agreed to have one of its grocery stores be part of the project, but the company wishes to make its participation officially known at a later date.
"I can say that it is an established business, with about 80 stores," Cronk said.
My bet is that the unnamed grocery is Homeland returning to the Tulsa market - http://hacretail.com/. Nice way to make a splash on reentry. Admittedly, Whole Foods or another premium grocer might be more sexy, but Homeland will serve the downtown market well.
Homeland is to OKC what Reasors is to Tulsa. The older stores are mediocre and the newer ones are pretty nice. 20k sq ft is a decent size but about half the size of a typical full service grocery store. Hopefully it has a cafe and large prepared food section; it should do very well during lunch hour.
Excited to see some updated renderings. I personally like this F&C project in Columbus and think something like it would be awesome here: https://flco.com/news-articles/flaherty-collins-properties-chosen-as-part-of-development-team-to-transform-scioto-peninsula-in-columbus-oh/ (https://flco.com/news-articles/flaherty-collins-properties-chosen-as-part-of-development-team-to-transform-scioto-peninsula-in-columbus-oh/)
(https://flco.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Scioto-1.jpg)
The article says they are supposed to start construction in late 2022, likely delivering in mid 2024.
Great to see this finally moving forward, but the renderings in the TW article are definitely a little lackluster. The apartments/condo tower was stripped out and turned into an ugly non-descript 6 story thing. The grocery looks pretty uninspiring too. I'm glad we get the store and even more housing and infil development, but this is a prime lot and I was hoping for something truly grand. I knew I was getting my hopes up for the tower though, that was too good to be true. I wonder how long it will be until we see an actual addition to Tulsa's skyline.
Yeah the updated drawings are very meh. Was hoping for a tower, still a vast improvement from the lot.
I don't really care about height. One of my favorite cities to walk is Washington, D.C., where all of the buildings are limited to I think 12 or 15 stories. Tulsa doesn't need any more tall buildings, we need to infill parking lots with small and mid-scale development. This seems to fit the bill. I do agree, however, that the renderings look fairly plain, pretty much another version of The Edge and The View. Not horrible, but just kind of boring. And Homeland was my thought too based on the descriptions. The other places I had in mind (Sprouts maybe?) have more locations than the description. A quick google shows that Homeland as of 2019 had 79 locations (not all Homeland branded), so that has to be it, and I'm okay with it if it is in line with the nicer ones in OKC.
Quote from: DowntownDan on September 21, 2021, 10:01:25 AM
I don't really care about height. One of my favorite cities to walk is Washington, D.C., where all of the buildings are limited to I think 12 or 15 stories. Tulsa doesn't need any more tall buildings, we need to infill parking lots with small and mid-scale development. This seems to fit the bill. I do agree, however, that the renderings look fairly plain, pretty much another version of The Edge and The View. Not horrible, but just kind of boring. And Homeland was my thought too based on the descriptions. The other places I had in mind (Sprouts maybe?) have more locations than the description. A quick google shows that Homeland as of 2019 had 79 locations (not all Homeland branded), so that has to be it, and I'm okay with it if it is in line with the nicer ones in OKC.
Sprouts had been looking around the 15th & Peoria area for a while but I don't think could ever find a site.
Homeland does seem to fit everything they are saying. The Homeland that just opened in NE OKC is about 30,000 sq. ft. so similar size. It's very nice and would be exactly what downtown needs.
https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2021/08/31/oklahoma-city-homeland-grocery-store-near-me-open-food-desert/5577563001/
https://okcfox.com/news/local/homeland-at-ne-okc-grand-opening
(https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/e/05/e051269c-2e45-57df-8328-805e13fea316/6149d55a3320b.image.jpg?resize=1200%2C637)
QuoteAn Architect's rendering looking west from the corner of Detroit Avenue and Third Street shows the Annex, a multi use project by Flaherty and Collins Properties that will occupy the parking lot just east of the Tulsa Performing Arts Center downtown. The Tulsa PAC trust, which has owned the lot since 1977, voted to sell the property to Flaherty and Collins for $5.5 million.
Interested to see how they parking this. The way the site slopes you could have an entire parking level partially underground on the south side and at-grade with 2nd St on the north side. In that case you could take an escalator/elevator/stairs from the parking into the grocery store above that fronts 3rd St. That is how it is done at the downtown Whole Foods in both Austin and Denver.
3rd St will have the grocery store frontage that wraps around the Detroit side along with the hotel entrance at 3rd & Cincinnati. Perfect spot for people coming for shows at the PAC. Interested to see what the 2nd St frontage looks like hopefully there is a decent amount of retail space to continue activity with the new OTASCO development/The Brook across the street and the lot next to it ripe for future redevelopment.
This combined with Santa Fe Square will make the whole area feel livelier.
I know the "it's better than what's there now" mindset is prevalent and I'm happy for development that takes surface parking away, but going from a 26 story tower to an nondescript apartment building is heartbreaking and hilarious.
I understand tall buildings don't necessarily create lively, liveable cities and all that jazz. Its just jarring to see the before and after renderings.
Quote from: Jake on September 21, 2021, 01:25:17 PM
I know the "it's better than what's there now" mindset is prevalent and I'm happy for development that takes surface parking away, but going from a 26 story tower to an nondescript apartment building is heartbreaking and hilarious.
I understand tall buildings don't necessarily create lively, liveable cities and all that jazz. Its just jarring to see the before and after renderings.
It is neither hilarious or heartbreaking and far far from 'it's better than what's there now'.
This wasn't originally proposed as a high-rise and was never actually confirmed by the developer even after some of those new renderings began floating around. This still looks almost entirely like the original plan but with a hotel and slightly smaller grocer. The high-rise renderings was a function of the size of space Reasor's wanted, they would have needed the entire 3rd street frontage and the developer also wanted a hotel as part of the project. The hotel wasn't part of the orginal proposal and once it was added it did change the design to what you are thinking was the original proposal showing the high-rise. At that point, it made sense to shrink the footprint of the residential portion (going from 10-12 stories to 20+) and put the hotel on the other corner along 2nd while giving Reasor's the entire southern half of the block along 3rd. The original proposal and the only one ever actually discussed by the developer's really publicly was the the 10-12 story residential tower with the grocer that looks nearly identical to what the new rendering shows in the World.
Given the grocer going in is about 10-15,000 sq ft smaller than Reasor's would have been, they can now fit the hotel on the other portion of the southern part of the lot along 3rd. Leaving the entire northern part of the lot along 2nd for the residential tower. There is zero reason to make the tower 20+ storey now that they can use the entire 2nd street frontage for residential.
Quote from: LandArchPoke on September 21, 2021, 02:27:32 PM
It is neither hilarious or heartbreaking and far far from 'it's better than what's there now'.
This wasn't originally proposed as a high-rise and was never actually confirmed by the developer even after some of those new renderings began floating around. This still looks almost entirely like the original plan but with a hotel and slightly smaller grocer. The high-rise renderings was a function of the size of space Reasor's wanted, they would have needed the entire 3rd street frontage and the developer also wanted a hotel as part of the project. The hotel wasn't part of the orginal proposal and once it was added it did change the design to what you are thinking was the original proposal showing the high-rise. At that point, it made sense to shrink the footprint of the residential portion (going from 10-12 stories to 20+) and put the hotel on the other corner along 2nd while giving Reasor's the entire southern half of the block along 3rd. The original proposal and the only one ever actually discussed by the developer's really publicly was the the 10-12 story residential tower with the grocer that looks nearly identical to what the new rendering shows in the World.
Given the grocer going in is about 10-15,000 sq ft smaller than Reasor's would have been, they can now fit the hotel on the other portion of the southern part of the lot along 3rd. Leaving the entire northern part of the lot along 2nd for the residential tower. There is zero reason to make the tower 20+ storey now that they can use the entire 2nd street frontage for residential.
I like the smaller grocery footprint better and think it will be more viable than a large store. With the rise of grocery delivery there just isn't a need for as much space, and what is there should be good for downtown residents and office workers (large prepared foods section, deli/seafood counter, small bakery, coffee shop).
I'm interested in what happens to the site across from the TPAC on 3rd. I know this has been floated as a potential expansion space for the theater and possibly a hotel. An AC Hotel or equivalent would do well at the corner of 3rd & Boston.
nvm
Wasn't office space in the original plan? Maybe the extra levels were office space that doesn't have a market right now with WPX having a bunch of office space it needs to lease.
Quote from: LandArchPoke on September 21, 2021, 02:27:32 PM
It is neither hilarious or heartbreaking and far far from 'it's better than what's there now'.
This wasn't originally proposed as a high-rise and was never actually confirmed by the developer even after some of those new renderings began floating around. This still looks almost entirely like the original plan but with a hotel and slightly smaller grocer. The high-rise renderings was a function of the size of space Reasor's wanted, they would have needed the entire 3rd street frontage and the developer also wanted a hotel as part of the project. The hotel wasn't part of the orginal proposal and once it was added it did change the design to what you are thinking was the original proposal showing the high-rise. At that point, it made sense to shrink the footprint of the residential portion (going from 10-12 stories to 20+) and put the hotel on the other corner along 2nd while giving Reasor's the entire southern half of the block along 3rd. The original proposal and the only one ever actually discussed by the developer's really publicly was the the 10-12 story residential tower with the grocer that looks nearly identical to what the new rendering shows in the World.
Given the grocer going in is about 10-15,000 sq ft smaller than Reasor's would have been, they can now fit the hotel on the other portion of the southern part of the lot along 3rd. Leaving the entire northern part of the lot along 2nd for the residential tower. There is zero reason to make the tower 20+ storey now that they can use the entire 2nd street frontage for residential.
According to what the TW wrote they also cut the garage size from 636 to 450. With a 240 unit apartment building, 100 room hotel and grocery store is 450 enough spaces to service the PAC as well?
Incidentally, the 26 story tower is still on the Flaherty & Collins website. That website also still has the garage at 636 spaces and notes a 35,000 Sq Ft grocery location.
https://flco.com/company-properties/the-annex/
For parking let's say the 240 units breakdown into the following: 25% studio, 50% one bed and 25% two bed units. That's 300 bedrooms. If they park it one stall per bedroom that's 300 stalls for the apartments. That leaves 150 for the grocery store, hotel and PAC.
Quote from: Jake on September 21, 2021, 02:59:55 PM
nvm
I get a lot of developments here seem to be bait and switch (Cimarex, Santa Fe Square, etc.) this just isn't one of them. If you look at the proposal they submitted to win the competition with the PAC from the other three developers what they are proposing now is still more than what was in the orginal proposal. The high-rise version didn't come about until much later in the proses for the reasons I said. If you want to see high-rise residential, this project is going to lead that route because they are still going to have to build it with steel/concrete and charge higher rents so it will test/establish a market for where rental rates can go in Tulsa and if the market will support high-rise residential. So all in all this isn't the development to be disappointed about compared to say Santa Fe Square currently.
Quote from: SXSW on September 22, 2021, 07:44:13 AM
For parking let's say the 240 units breakdown into the following: 25% studio, 50% one bed and 25% two bed units. That's 300 bedrooms. If they park it one stall per bedroom that's 300 stalls for the apartments. That leaves 150 for the grocery store, hotel and PAC.
That's a good breakdown, plus those 300 stalls will never be 100% in use during the day time when the grocer and or PAC would be holding events. The hotel will likely valet cars which means they can park a lot in a very small amount of space. The PAC events are not going on when the grocer would be busy either so really it's a good use of space and they actually seem to not be over building parking here. The PAC could always offer valet services too and use that garage. With the massive garage at Santa Fe Square too just a couple blocks away that can more than easily handle any over flow parking for any PAC event too.
I still don't understand why the City has not retrofitted their parking garage given it's location to open in the evenings. Like use some of the COVID funds to upgrade security so no one can access the building and open it for free in the evenings. It's right in the middle of Blue Dome/Greenwood/Arts District - just seems dumb we have a public asset sitting there restricted and unused in such a valuable location for a parking structure.
While the PAC typically has Saturday and Sunday matinées, the majority of shows are typically in the evening at 7 or 7:30.
Here is a rendering from 2nd & Detroit. My guess is the Detroit parking garage entrance will be for the grocery store/PAC with an escalator/elevator into the grocery store above. The other garage entrance on 2nd will be for the apartment residents and hotel.
Typically the main lobby/leasing center would be located in the middle of the block adjacent to the parking entrance (there will likely be a handful of visitor spaces adjacent to the lobby). There will be some kind of retail space, not sure if it is located at the Detroit or Cincinnati corner though.
(https://npr.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/784d653/2147483647/strip/true/crop/2654x1635+0+55/resize/880x542!/quality/90/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnpr-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2Flegacy%2Fsites%2Fkwgs%2Ffiles%2F202109%2Fannex_september_2021_rendering_from_second_and_detroit.png)
Even though it's not a "tower", that 11 stories will really fill up the area and add a ton of density. Kinda odd that they are putting the apartments on the PAC corner rather than putting the hotel or store there, but I guess it might have something to do with the grading since that corner is the high point and both the store and the hotel need the basement/parking levels.
Quote from: shavethewhales on September 27, 2021, 08:48:45 AM
Even though it's not a "tower", that 11 stories will really fill up the area and add a ton of density. Kinda odd that they are putting the apartments on the PAC corner rather than putting the hotel or store there, but I guess it might have something to do with the grading since that corner is the high point and both the store and the hotel need the basement/parking levels.
Exactly, you can just partially excavate the site and get nearly the entire existing lot of parking underneath the grocery and hotel fronting 3rd. Agree on the density this is overall a great project for this location. Now just need this one and Santa Fe to actually start in mid-2022.
Reasors was sold today to Brookshire Grocery Company. This may explain the unnamed chain indicated in the sale article from September.
Quote from: owenix on November 01, 2021, 07:53:08 PM
Reasors was sold today to Brookshire Grocery Company. This may explain the unnamed chain indicated in the sale article from September.
Sad to see anything go under a Texas company's ownership but Reasors did seem to be lacking in the capital they needed to compete so I guess better than languishing. I can't imagine the unnamed chain is Reasors though - seems more in line with an Aldi or something.
Pretty sure it's Homeland.
Quote from: swake on November 01, 2021, 09:03:25 PM
Pretty sure it's Homeland.
Has Homeland actually built any stores lately or just converted ones they've acquired? I'm not saying they couldn't build something new but I would think if they're wanting to reenter the Tulsa market they'd be better off buying an existing store that was at least making money as opposed to this relative unknown. I mean - we all would like a grocery store downtown but business-wise it's a total crap-shoot on it's actual viability even with people actually living downtown.
Quote from: tulsabug on November 02, 2021, 03:30:14 PM
Has Homeland actually built any stores lately or just converted ones they've acquired? I'm not saying they couldn't build something new but I would think if they're wanting to reenter the Tulsa market they'd be better off buying an existing store that was at least making money as opposed to this relative unknown. I mean - we all would like a grocery store downtown but business-wise it's a total crap-shoot on it's actual viability even with people actually living downtown.
Homeland recently built a 30k sf new store in NE OKC that is pretty nice.
https://tulsaworld.com/business/local/up-to-22-million-bond-issuance-planned-for-downtown-project-linked-to-new-grocery-store/article_03b694de-5e7c-11ec-b03e-5f3dce5d98d1.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1
So this is moving forward with a possible construction start date of Q2 2022, meaning this summer. Very exciting. Since the rest of Santa Fe Square is also most likely going to start construction at this time, that'll be two major projects under construction taking up former surface parking lots. A huge reduction in empty space downtown, not to mention so much more cohesion across the blue dome district. Really looking forward to this, even though the big tower has been removed.
Quote from: shavethewhales on December 16, 2021, 02:29:14 PM
https://tulsaworld.com/business/local/up-to-22-million-bond-issuance-planned-for-downtown-project-linked-to-new-grocery-store/article_03b694de-5e7c-11ec-b03e-5f3dce5d98d1.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1
So this is moving forward with a possible construction start date of Q2 2022, meaning this summer. Very exciting. Since the rest of Santa Fe Square is also most likely going to start construction at this time, that'll be two major projects under construction taking up former surface parking lots. A huge reduction in empty space downtown, not to mention so much more cohesion across the blue dome district. Really looking forward to this, even though the big tower has been removed.
That will be a lot of construction in the Blue Dome, especially an 11 story residential tower. Good to see things shifted back from the Arts District but would like to see additional projects there too, hopefully Western Supply gets off the ground in 2022 and we start to see plans developed for the TDA lots north of 244 and the Evans-Fintube site.
Anyone heard rumblings on the timeline for this? Hopefully still set for this summer... I keep looking and hoping that I spot signs of construction. Haven't yet :)
Quote from: ComeOnBenjals on May 04, 2022, 12:22:01 PM
Anyone heard rumblings on the timeline for this? Hopefully still set for this summer... I keep looking and hoping that I spot signs of construction. Haven't yet :)
It's moving forward. They have to redo a sewer line. No building permit yet, though. I don't know exact timeline but appears on track.
Quote from: Tulsan on May 04, 2022, 08:59:55 PM
It's moving forward. They have to redo a sewer line. No building permit yet, though. I don't know exact timeline but appears on track.
I believe they still have a bit to go on getting construction documents ready and then will be submitting for permits. I talked with the developers not too long ago and they are full steam ahead. I would imagine it'll be fully under construction by fall.
Quote from: LandArchPoke on May 04, 2022, 10:15:37 PM
I believe they still have a bit to go on getting construction documents ready and then will be submitting for permits. I talked with the developers not too long ago and they are full steam ahead. I would imagine it'll be fully under construction by fall.
I think people underestimate what a massive shot in the arm this will be for downtown. This and Santa Fe Square going up at the same time fill huge holes and show a confidence that large mixed-use projects are viable. Excited to see what other projects these will spur in the future.
Quote from: SXSW on May 06, 2022, 11:22:29 AM
I think people underestimate what a massive shot in the arm this will be for downtown. This and Santa Fe Square going up at the same time fill huge holes and show a confidence that large mixed-use projects are viable. Excited to see what other projects these will spur in the future.
Agreed - it will also make downtown finally feel somewhat connected/cohesive. Right now it feels like very fragmented neighborhoods because of the big parking lots. Once the Santa Fe lot is gone and PAC lot is gone you'll have a pretty dense core with only small parking lots mixed in the Deco District, Blue Dome, East Village, Greenwood, and Arts District will all feel more like one big area versus separate places. We just are in need of some decent streetscaping, I wish Tulsa would figure out a way to pull off something like Project 360 in OKC.
Not sure if anyone has noticed by they've started the process of converting Cincinnati and Detroit to two way streets. They're starting it by the WPX building, not sure how long it will take them to do it all the way north to the split and south to the BA.
Totally agree ^. Will give the downtown area much better flow. Next on my wishlist is the development of the seemingly random assortment of abandoned buildings in prime spots... Across from McNellies is a big one, totally kills that corner. The old gas station (?) in the arts district across from the tavern. Can't believe that spot hasn't been bought and turned into something. You couldn't ask for a better location.
Quote from: ComeOnBenjals on May 06, 2022, 12:34:11 PM
Totally agree ^. Will give the downtown area much better flow. Next on my wishlist is the development of the seemingly random assortment of abandoned buildings in prime spots... Across from McNellies is a big one, totally kills that corner. The old gas station (?) in the arts district across from the tavern. Can't believe that spot hasn't been bought and turned into something. You couldn't ask for a better location.
It's a manufacturing facility and they don't want to move. They actually filed not too long ago to expand the building and the city turned them down. I can't remember the name of the company.
Quote from: swake on May 06, 2022, 12:40:40 PM
It's a manufacturing facility and they don't want to move. They actually filed not too long ago to expand the building and the city turned them down. I can't remember the name of the company.
That's interesting... maybe we can pitch in and help them gently relocate haha. It's an eyesore on the area... although it really puts the Mixed into Mixed use.
If I recall, they actually wanted to add some retail frontage somehow... but it was kind of a weird deal. They want to stay where they are at because they like the location and have been there forever - long before the area became hip. Some of their machinery isn't easy to move apparently. Probably the type of stuff that isn't even made anymore so if they move they risk something going wrong and having to figure out all new equipment and a new process.
There was also some flak about the building itself. Apparently some value it as historical despite it not looking like much. It could be restored to look like an antique gas station I guess...
What building are we talking about?
Quote from: ComeOnBenjals on May 06, 2022, 04:37:23 PM
That's interesting... maybe we can pitch in and help them gently relocate haha. It's an eyesore on the area... although it really puts the Mixed into Mixed use.
Just when I think no one is stupid enough to pay a high price, well above fair market value, for something, someone does.
Quote from: SXSW on May 06, 2022, 11:22:29 AM
I think people underestimate what a massive shot in the arm this will be for downtown. This and Santa Fe Square going up at the same time fill huge holes and show a confidence that large mixed-use projects are viable. Excited to see what other projects these will spur in the future.
Make downtown attractive enough and limit parking enough and MAYBE we can get park-and-ride lots and commuter rail. Probably won't happen in my lifetime though.
$200 million will get you three miles of street car tracks and rail cars.
QuoteThe Tempe Streetcar will begin service in early 2022 after delays in the manufacturing and delivery of six vehicles made by Brookville Equipment Corporation. The $200 million project will include three miles of track, 14 stops and two connections to the already existing Valley Metro Rail.
The project, originally projected to be completed in mid-2021, is a collaboration between the city of Tempe and Valley Metro originating from a voter-approved regional transportation plan in 2004. The project is jointly funded by ASU, the Federal Transit Administration, a half-cent sales tax approved by Tempe voters in 1996 for transit expansion and a mix of private investors.
https://www.statepress.com/article/2021/10/tempe-streetcar-delay-economic-development (https://www.statepress.com/article/2021/10/tempe-streetcar-delay-economic-development)
Route map
https://kjzz.org/file/tempe-streetcar-map-20180815png (https://kjzz.org/file/tempe-streetcar-map-20180815png)
Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on May 06, 2022, 07:57:42 PM
$200 million will get you three miles of street car tracks and rail cars.
So we are only about 25 years away from something similar if we start now.
Is that 3 miles of track or route? Double track is the way to go.
Quote from: Red Arrow on May 07, 2022, 02:20:25 PM
So we are only about 25 years away from something similar if we start now.
Is that 3 miles of track or route? Double track is the way to go.
It's a 3 mile loop (1.5 miles each side) with a spur at each end for cars to change direction.
North end of the loop
https://goo.gl/maps/Xc87311yJeN2S9hr9 (https://goo.gl/maps/Xc87311yJeN2S9hr9)
East end of the loop stops at the light rail station on the Tempe/Mesa border.
https://goo.gl/maps/BjSi5zTDKjSCzMqr9 (https://goo.gl/maps/BjSi5zTDKjSCzMqr9)
In theory and being looked at is extending the street car route into the downtown area of Mesa since the streetcar and light rail cars use the same gauge track and overhead electrical pickup and this intersection is where the crossover would be.
https://goo.gl/maps/eKPLgkYYBmPNLCbc9 (https://goo.gl/maps/eKPLgkYYBmPNLCbc9)
The timeline has been extremely long mainly, IMO, because the target for transit here keeps moving, and has been changing since the mid 80's. Originally in the 80's was a plan for a combination of express buses and light rail, think hub and spoke method, to run down the center of the freeways, IIRC, with them all meeting together at a terminal just off of downtown Phoenix. Most of the terminal was built when they completed I-10 with the Deck Park Tunnel/Margaret T. Hance Park. The light rail was eventually built in the late 2000's and the area between the park and the library on Central Ave is where the top part of the station was to be built.
Overhead
https://goo.gl/maps/YSpKMfaXaYLjq1K68 (https://goo.gl/maps/YSpKMfaXaYLjq1K68)
This is the entrance/exit for where the buses would have entered from I-10.
West side
https://goo.gl/maps/ZvyFU1FWNQVLUJz68 (https://goo.gl/maps/ZvyFU1FWNQVLUJz68)
East side
https://goo.gl/maps/PpepmRH4iKazG1SV6 (https://goo.gl/maps/PpepmRH4iKazG1SV6)
The terminal area in the tunnel is now used by ADOT for equipment storage especially for the equipment they use for cleaning the tunnel two to three times a year.
https://www.12news.com/article/features/phoenix-has-forgotten-underground-bus-station/75-1e5ad90e-22e2-411e-b84a-ec4af12b521a (https://www.12news.com/article/features/phoenix-has-forgotten-underground-bus-station/75-1e5ad90e-22e2-411e-b84a-ec4af12b521a)
Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on May 07, 2022, 08:53:32 PM
It's a 3 mile loop (1.5 miles each side) with a spur at each end for cars to change direction.
So, double ended cars. Philadelphia had single ended PCC cars for many years which required a loop at the end of the route. The suburban trolleys I knew were double ended. A short route could be a simple switch to the other side like the Woodland Ave stop in Springfield on the Media line. The end of the line in Media was simply an end of the track. The old trolleys with trolley poles had a pole at each end. The motorman had to lower one and raise the other to operate in the opposite direction. Probably not much fun in the rain or snow. Not a problem with the pantograph type pickup.
QuoteIn theory and being looked at is extending the street car route into the downtown area of Mesa since the streetcar and light rail cars use the same gauge track and overhead electrical pickup and this intersection is where the crossover would be.
Not sure about Streetcar and Light Rail mixing. I've read that mixing Light Rail and Heavy Rail is generally not allowed even if the rail gauge and power source is the same.
Overhead view of the Woodland Ave stop. The outbound double track stops at Woodland Ave. The switch (turnout) is a bit from the road, probably to allow 2 car multiple units.
https://goo.gl/maps/kqmdqzK5gizp2vWu5
Street view looking inbound to 69th Street. Media, PA being the outbound end of the route.
https://goo.gl/maps/Hx4KfdbnE2iXa2e4A
I don't remember if it is single track from here to Media or if it is double track part way.
Edit: add end of line in Media:
Looks like there were some overhead wire maintenance difficulties when this street view picture was taken.
https://goo.gl/maps/T68pzFk4vXs2GRL99
Back to Tempe...
Do you know if Girder Rail was used rather than regular rail? I ask because the last I heard, all Girder Rail is foreign sourced which causes funding problems with USA $.
http://www.rail-fastener.com/grooved-rail.html#:~:text=Due%20to%20the%20asymmetric%20cross-section%20of%20the%20girder,steel%20rails%2C%20more%20sophisticated%20welding%20techniques%20are%20required.
I don't know about the actual rail used but will look around and see.
Valley Metro which runs both the light rail and the street car systems use the same tracks and the same repair yard, so the street cars are capable and actually have been during the "burning in period" for the cars have been running on the light rail tracks.
Quote"They are going be doing some tests of the vehicle in our maintenance facility, then each vehicle has to do what's called burn in and travel several-hundred miles to make sure it's basically able to withstand travel on the track," said Valley Metro's Madeline Phipps. "We're going to use the light-rail track for that because with only a three-mile loop on the Tempe Streetcar line, that would take a really long time.
"Then we'll do testing on the actual Tempe Streetcar system, probably starting in late May. Streetcar vehicles can travel on the light-rail track. In fact, every night, the streetcars will switch over onto the light-rail track and travel to our maintenance center at 30th Street and Washington to be serviced."
https://www.wranglernews.com/2021/04/02/run-into-town-on-a-rail-tempe-streetcar-ready-to-ease-congestion/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CThen%20we'll%20do%20testing,and%20Washington%20to%20be%20serviced.%E2%80%9D (https://www.wranglernews.com/2021/04/02/run-into-town-on-a-rail-tempe-streetcar-ready-to-ease-congestion/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CThen%20we'll%20do%20testing,and%20Washington%20to%20be%20serviced.%E2%80%9D)
On the expansion into Mesa, I may have been somewhat wrong on the routes. They are studying the expansion now and awaiting results from Tempe's first year or two, as well as a 0.5% transportation tax that was passed in 2004 is set to expire in 2025 unless it is renewed by a public vote, and any infrastructure money from the Fed.
QuoteTempe's $200 million streetcar won't be up and running until early next year, but some leaders already are eyeing expansion.
Valley Metro officials in 2020 began evaluating five possible expansion routes. One expansion — which would take it to Mesa near the Chicago Cubs spring training park and the busy Mesa Community College campus — ranked in third place.
That's the only explored route that would take streetcar deep into west Mesa. The others are almost entirely in Tempe, although the No. 1 option would just cross the Mesa border and go up to Dobson Road in Mesa. The five potential expansion routes are:
First place: A line running east on Rio Salado Parkway, roughly from Rural to Dobson roads. This would run along the Tempe Novus Innovation Corridor, which is partially being built on the old Karsten Golf Course.
Second place: A line running south on Rural Road from Rio Salado Parkway to Southern Avenue. At Southern Avenue, it would run west to Mill Avenue.
Third place: A line entirely in Mesa, running along Dobson Road from Rio Salado Parkway to Southern Avenue, then cutting east along Southern Avenue to Country Club Drive and running north along Country Club Drive to Main Street.
Fourth place: A line extending further south on Mill Avenue, to Southern Avenue.
Fifth place: A line going further west on Rio Salado Parkway.
Valley Metro CEO Scott Smith, who oversaw much of light rail's Mesa expansion as mayor, isn't ruling it out. But, he said it'll take years for an expansion like that to take shape.
If it does happen, he said, it'll be thanks to two things: the recently approved $1.2 trillion federal infrastructure package and a potential renewal of Maricopa County's transportation tax, which is set to expire in 2025.
Francisco Heredia, a Mesa City Councilmember who leads two Valley Metro boards of directors, hopes it extends into Mesa.
He sees the potential Mesa route as a boon to spring-training baseball, shopping centers and the massive community college campus. It also could spur more redevelopment in the nearby Fiesta District.
"It's going to be important access for the future," he said.
Smith and Heredia spoke with The Arizona Republic at Valley Metro's expanded, solar-powered Operations and Maintenance Center in Phoenix. The center, where workers repair and maintain light rail vehicles and streetcar, recently underwent a $92 million expansion.
Extension could be 5-10 years out, but one leader wants to know next year
Leaders acknowledge an expansion could be years out, and likely hinges on whether voters renew the 0.5% county transportation sales tax. But Heredia hopes to have a timeline in the next year.
"We're going to see how Tempe's system operates and learn from that," the Mesa council member said.
Potentially expanding into Mesa comes with some hurdles. The streetcar would have to intersect with light rail at Dobson Road and Main Street, as well as a Union-Pacific train line on Dobson.
At least one of those issues may have a solution already.
Streetcar intersects with light rail lines twice in Tempe. At those points, the streetcar disconnects from the overhead line, which powers it and charges its battery, and runs solely on battery power. Smith calls it a "hybrid" model of rail.
Smith said the streetcar needs two things to expand: more grant funding and an extension on the county transportation sales tax.
The massive bipartisan Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act would go a long way for the former. The deal promised some $8 billion in grants for rail projects across the U.S. The biggest hurdle is getting some of that competitive grant money, Smith said.
"If streetcar happens (in Mesa), the infrastructure package is the reason it happens," he said.
But there's still the elephant in the room for rail projects: Prop. 400.
The tax, which voters approved in 2004, paved the way for light rail by increasing sales tax 0.5%. But it's set to expire in 2025. Smith said he hopes an extension will head to the ballot in 2022 or 2024.
"Come back in 2025 or 2026 and we'll see if the streetcar expansion can happen," he said. "If voters approve that extension, Mesa can immediately begin planning."
(https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2021/12/10/PPHX/c1704623-3ab3-4969-ba31-ca4b09cfb028-streetcar_expansion_routes.png?width=848&height=642&fit=crop&format=pjpg&auto=webp)
Here's the link to the article, you can get to it by using an incognito window since it's behind a paywall.
https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/mesa/2021/12/13/tempe-streetcar-mesa-leaders-eye-expansion-routes/6408367001/ (https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/mesa/2021/12/13/tempe-streetcar-mesa-leaders-eye-expansion-routes/6408367001/)
A side note on Tempe and how much it has changed, here are two views from the same spot on Google Street View, the first is from May of 2011 and the second is from March of 2021
https://goo.gl/maps/89noe8h4kr4ZKT1Y9 (https://goo.gl/maps/89noe8h4kr4ZKT1Y9)
https://goo.gl/maps/n39XCNHYt6PXkdzr7 (https://goo.gl/maps/n39XCNHYt6PXkdzr7)
Keep hoping to see some initial work on this site... nothing doing yet :)
Quote from: ComeOnBenjals on July 06, 2022, 09:49:36 AM
Keep hoping to see some initial work on this site... nothing doing yet :)
My assumption is they are working on construction docs and plans... they can take a long time especially with as backed up as most architects are at the moment. Some offices were at least 6 months out from even being able to start a project, let alone the time to actually work through getting it ready to submit to the city. So we could easily still be close to the end of this year before we see anymore plans from the developer or early next year.
It's definitely a tricky time because the longer it takes to get closer to construction and as interest rates keep rising hopefully this doesn't kill the project. It's a legitimate developer who has done plenty of similar projects, but rising rates are going to more quickly impact large projects like this than smaller developments.
Quote from: LandArchPoke on July 06, 2022, 10:24:29 AM
My assumption is they are working on construction docs and plans... they can take a long time especially with as backed up as most architects are at the moment. Some offices were at least 6 months out from even being able to start a project, let alone the time to actually work through getting it ready to submit to the city. So we could easily still be close to the end of this year before we see anymore plans from the developer or early next year.
It's definitely a tricky time because the longer it takes to get closer to construction and as interest rates keep rising hopefully this doesn't kill the project. It's a legitimate developer who has done plenty of similar projects, but rising rates are going to more quickly impact large projects like this than smaller developments.
Good insight. Would be devastating if this project gets killed. Tulsa is so close to getting some more good momentum downtown.
Well, hotel occupancy still seems to be doing well as far as I'm aware, and downtown apartments are still popular. Their profit margins may shrink due to interest expense, but I doubt the margins are so close that interest rate rises would knock them off. Construction costs are probably a bigger hinderance. We're still seeing overall project prices that are double what they were before the pandemic.
There's also fears of the overall economy going into a recession and layoffs starting up. Banking industry has already been impacted and that represents a lot of jobs downtown. Energy isn't doing as good as you'd think despite the profit margins you hear about. The drilling/midstream companies still can't get the capital to expand like they'd want and they are scared to jump in too quickly like they have in the past anyway. That means the downtown firms aren't hiring en mass like the old days either, and of course WPX is gone...
So all in all, I'm not surprised that they are dragging their feet and share the hope that things will go through as planned eventually. Hopefully things will level off by fall all around.
Quote from: shavethewhales on July 06, 2022, 02:42:43 PM
Well, hotel occupancy still seems to be doing well as far as I'm aware, and downtown apartments are still popular. Their profit margins may shrink due to interest expense, but I doubt the margins are so close that interest rate rises would knock them off. Construction costs are probably a bigger hinderance. We're still seeing overall project prices that are double what they were before the pandemic.
There's also fears of the overall economy going into a recession and layoffs starting up. Banking industry has already been impacted and that represents a lot of jobs downtown. Energy isn't doing as good as you'd think despite the profit margins you hear about. The drilling/midstream companies still can't get the capital to expand like they'd want and they are scared to jump in too quickly like they have in the past anyway. That means the downtown firms aren't hiring en mass like the old days either, and of course WPX is gone...
So all in all, I'm not surprised that they are dragging their feet and share the hope that things will go through as planned eventually. Hopefully things will level off by fall all around.
This project has some pretty significant public subsidies that have timelines attached to them. For example, the multifamily portion of Santa Fe Square has to start by Sep 1 or they start to encounter penalties with their TIF. I don't know the specifics of the PAC Annex TIF.
I am worried how the potential elimination of the grocery tax will affect the grocery store sales tax receipts tied to the TIF for this site.
Quote from: SXSW on July 06, 2022, 03:14:40 PM
This project has some pretty significant public subsidies that have timelines attached to them. For example, the multifamily portion of Santa Fe Square has to start by Sep 1 or they start to encounter penalties with their TIF. I don't know the specifics of the PAC Annex TIF.
I am worried how the potential elimination of the grocery tax will affect the grocery store sales tax receipts tied to the TIF for this site.
That law would impact state sales taxes, not local sales tax. No impact.
Hearing this is still moving forward, albeit slowly, due to redesign associated with the grocery store operator. I would expect to see a spring groundbreaking.
Quote from: SXSW on July 06, 2022, 03:14:40 PM
This project has some pretty significant public subsidies that have timelines attached to them. For example, the multifamily portion of Santa Fe Square has to start by Sep 1 or they start to encounter penalties with their TIF. I don't know the specifics of the PAC Annex TIF.
I am worried how the potential elimination of the grocery tax will affect the grocery store sales tax receipts tied to the TIF for this site.
I don't believe the city has bonded the TIF for this yet so not sure if there's any specific timelines on this one.
Santa Fe though has already been bonded when they started the office portion so that's why they have specific timelines on it. The TIF for Santa Fe was calculated based on ad valorem and sales of both the office and residential portions. So if they backed out of the apartment portion it was be a pretty significant issue (not saying they would I think they are pretty eager to start once they have the office building far enough along and it's no longer a staging issue).
I don't think the PAC developer is being held to anything at the moment, I don't think the city will issue the bonds until they're within a month or two of breaking ground and have permits, etc.
Any rumblings on this...?
Quote from: ComeOnBenjals on October 27, 2022, 12:53:15 PM
Any rumblings on this...?
Likely won't hear much until first of next year. Interest rates rising certainly is not going to help. Hopefully it doesn't stall the project, but at the rate of rental growth in Tulsa and the housing market/prices are still rising at some of the fastest rates in the country will help offset that some. Sales of the Cosmopolitan and Flats on Archer pushing towards $300k/unit and cap rates stable here too I'm hopeful it moves forward. I think they can make the deal work even with rates moving higher.
Quote from: LandArchPoke on October 27, 2022, 01:48:39 PM
... but at the rate of rental growth in Tulsa and the housing market/prices are still rising at some of the fastest rates in the country...
Maybe the ever increasing housing prices will stimulate regional rail transit since no one will be able to afford living in Tulsa. I am think of 'burbs beyond BA, Owasso, Bixby and Jenks because they are getting expensive too. Not so sure about Sapulpa and Sand Springs. We could turn Tulsa into another Los Angeles. 2 hour commutes just to afford a place to live.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEPTA_Regional_Rail#/media/File:Philadelphia_Transit_and_Commuter_Rail_System.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEPTA_Regional_Rail
https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/pac-trust-declines-to-extend-deadline-for-developers-proposed-mixed-use-project/article_0adbe69c-65b0-11ed-baf5-8bd0ce9a7920.html
PAC Trust declines to extend deadline for developer's proposed mixed-use project
Forgot to post this a couple weeks back. Not a great sign, this would be a huge bummer.
It's not dead yet... This does show that they are feeling some pressure though, otherwise they wouldn't have asked for an extension. Who knows what will happen, but I'm not optimistic of what will happen if they end up passing. I fear the trust has waited so long that they will just take what they can get, and that will be some crappy low-effort development.
Quote from: shavethewhales on December 07, 2022, 11:33:56 AM
It's not dead yet... This does show that they are feeling some pressure though, otherwise they wouldn't have asked for an extension. Who knows what will happen, but I'm not optimistic of what will happen if they end up passing. I fear the trust has waited so long that they will just take what they can get, and that will be some crappy low-effort development.
I like the project, but this is just an example of developers taking advantage of a situation. There's no reason why they haven't been able to move forward on this they've just prioritized other projects where they've had more personal money on the line. They've been able to sit with the site under control with not much $$ in the game unlike a lot of typical deals and so they've just been trying to kick it down the road. It's not that this group is a bad developer or anything or it's a bad project they've just not seen this as much of a priority. The PAC trust should have done this a LONG time ago to get them to move on the site.
It would be a bummer if they walk away from the project but it could happen. This is a prime site and someone will do something with it, but it's time to stop allowing the developers to delay it, delay it, delay it.
They need to at least require the developer to show the board what they are doing to move the project forward if they need extensions from now on - like if they're waiting on the architects to finish design/construction docs make them submit something, etc. No reason to let them slide, if they don't see this site as a priority someone else will.
Quote from: ComeOnBenjals on December 07, 2022, 09:06:57 AM
https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/pac-trust-declines-to-extend-deadline-for-developers-proposed-mixed-use-project/article_0adbe69c-65b0-11ed-baf5-8bd0ce9a7920.html
PAC Trust declines to extend deadline for developer's proposed mixed-use project
Forgot to post this a couple weeks back. Not a great sign, this would be a huge bummer.
The PAC trust board had given up on the developers and intended to go in a different direction - intention was to build a new theater on the parcel. However, I was told there is a renewed push to finalize the sale and one more extension is likely next month based on request from the Mayor. If it's not done by the end of the extended period, however, it's probably dead.
Looks like the board is granting some additional extensions.
Oasis is the planned grocer now instead of Homeland. I believe Oasis got somewhere around $30 million in ARPA funds to expand to multiple new sites in 'food deserts' statewide
That's good... keep the pressure up to get started while also being reasonable. Holding out a lot of hope for this one.
Oasis looks decent, and hopefully having a store here will help their bottom line and better fund their efforts in other areas. I have a feeling that despite being a "food desert", downtown will be an extremely lucrative location when it opens.
That would be terrific! Oasis is a great market and would thrive downtown I think, especially if people know their broader mission.
https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/pac-board-extends-deadline-for-development-after-oasis-signs-on/article_153e6722-7749-11ed-b84b-0f16d2ec5f88.html#tracking-source=home-top-story
QuotePAC board extends deadline for development after Oasis signs on
The Tulsa Performing Arts Center Trust on Thursday gave a little and got a lot.
After a nearly two-hour board meeting, trustees voted to give an Indianapolis-based developer six more months to get a proposed mixed-use development across the street from the PAC off the ground.
That was the give. What the PAC board received was word from Ryan Cronk, vice president of development for Flaherty & Collins Properties, that he had signed a lease with Oasis Fresh Market to operate a 20,000-square-foot supermarket as part of the $108 million development.
Looks like a few mostly minor changes to the renderings. Glad to still see the apartment tower, I was worried it would get VE'd to a 5 story wood-frame over podium.
I know originally there was parking below the grocery store allowing customers to park underneath and take an escalator into the store. Not sure if that's still the plan or not but it makes sense, in addition to have the main pedestrian entrance front 3rd Street. The rendering doesn't show the 6-8 ft of fall between 3rd and 2nd Streets.
(https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/b/19/b19f10f6-776e-11ed-bb6e-d3abde9782bf/6393402d494b1.image.jpg?resize=990%2C562)
Quote from: SXSW on December 09, 2022, 11:52:40 AM
Looks like a few mostly minor changes to the renderings. Glad to still see the apartment tower, I was worried it would get VE'd to a 5 story wood-frame over podium.
I know originally there was parking below the grocery store allowing customers to park underneath and take an escalator into the store. Not sure if that's still the plan or not but it makes sense, in addition to have the main pedestrian entrance front 3rd Street. The rendering doesn't show the 6-8 ft of fall between 3rd and 2nd Streets.
I believe the parking garage set up, etc. is part of the requirements of sale from the PAC board. It wouldn't be feasible to do the project if they went down to 5 stories because you would probably barely get 100 units on the site that way. Scale wise that's not sufficient for most bigger multifamily developers, for operations you really need in the 200 - 250 units in each project to make them operate well.
It doesn't look like that rendering is meant to be true to what is built because there's not even a door/entry into Oasis. They did put a truck coming out of the building a bit further down between Oasis and the residential building so it appears they are still signaling that the parking would be under the store. Which given the elevation difference makes the most sense to do that way versus above the store or a podium in the apartment tower.
This development group at least has a lot of experience in the grocer anchor urban project so they know what has to be done parking, etc. wise for a grocer to succeed. They won't do a podium design for parking, they're going to want it to be under the store with very easy in/out access for shoppers.
Now that WPX is finished, Santa Fe Square office is nearly finished and the Santa Fe residential well underway is The Annex the biggest project currently on the boards downtown? Hopefully 2023 is the year we see this break ground, it would be amazing to see a full block developed and another tower crane up, not to mention adding a long-awaited grocery store and 260 new apartments and a hotel.
It's definitely the biggest, followed by the proposed Hotel/Garage/Apartments across from Hunt Club in the arts district. That is set to kick off in August. The PAC lot has an extension until May for them to purchase, so if it goes through, we will once again have at least two "towers" going up downtown with all the cranes and whatnot. With Flaherty & Collins making the recent announcement of the new grocery partner for the site, I assume that means things are still progressing, so I'm optimistic.
In other news related to the PAC, the city council just visited to discuss its needs. https://ktul.com/news/local/tulsa-city-council-tours-citys-performing-arts-center-to-identify-needs
The building is not fully ADA compliant, among other issues, and needs $25 million just for ADA access upgrades. Whatever happened to the big proposal to really upgrade the facility and add a glass façade? I assume part of that was contingent on the sale.
Quote from: shavethewhales on January 05, 2023, 09:57:09 AM
In other news related to the PAC, the city council just visited to discuss its needs. https://ktul.com/news/local/tulsa-city-council-tours-citys-performing-arts-center-to-identify-needs
The building is not fully ADA compliant, among other issues, and needs $25 million just for ADA access upgrades. Whatever happened to the big proposal to really upgrade the facility and add a glass façade? I assume part of that was contingent on the sale.
My understanding is that is just for ADA compliance upgrades and deferred maintenance over the next 1-3 years. The plan is still to massively upgrade the PAC and build a new theater, possibly across 3rd St, after the sale of the Annex parking lot and once half the funds are raised privately. This should be Tulsa's next BOK Center, a major public improvement project that will have long-lasting effects.
From a June 2022 TW article:
Quote"We need to start having these conversations," Frie said. "Our goal is to raise half of the money needed for a new performing arts center privately. We have a development team in place, and we've had some positive response from major donors."
A new performing arts center is estimated to cost upwards of $300 million. Frie said one solution to creating a new center would be first to construct a medium-sized, 1,200- to 1,400-seat theater at a new location. The current PAC could continue operations until this phase of the project was completed.
"A medium-sized theater is something the major companies have wanted for years," Frie said. "And it would allow us to keep operating during construction, whereas a full remodel of the present facility would require us to shut down for months, even years.
https://tulsaworld.com/entertainment/arts-and-theatre/tulsa-pac-we-need-to-start-having-these-conversations-on-venues-future-ceo-says/article_ea51b820-e102-11ec-b17c-0bd1743aa7db.html (https://tulsaworld.com/entertainment/arts-and-theatre/tulsa-pac-we-need-to-start-having-these-conversations-on-venues-future-ceo-says/article_ea51b820-e102-11ec-b17c-0bd1743aa7db.html)
Really hoping we hear something soon on this. Anyone have their ear to the ground. The final deadline is getting close, but interest rates are a lot higher and the economy is slowing down. I still think there's a ton of demand in Tulsa for hotel, grocery, and apartments, but the deals aren't as lucrative as they were a couple years ago.
Quote from: shavethewhales on May 02, 2023, 03:51:58 PM
Really hoping we hear something soon on this. Anyone have their ear to the ground. The final deadline is getting close, but interest rates are a lot higher and the economy is slowing down. I still think there's a ton of demand in Tulsa for hotel, grocery, and apartments, but the deals aren't as lucrative as they were a couple years ago.
If they couldn't make it work with 3% rates it certainly won't work now. Unless the city kicks in a LOT more incentives, which they may do
Quote from: SXSW on May 02, 2023, 11:06:32 PM
If they couldn't make it work with 3% rates it certainly won't work now. Unless the city kicks in a LOT more incentives, which they may do
This was definitely partly the developers fault - I think they were taking the PAC Trust for granted because they were not enforcing timelines, etc. so they thought well we have control of the site and can move on it when it is the most convenient for us. They waited too long and now rates are very difficult to deal with for construction and even if deals still pencil out which this one should finding banks willing to lend even on a good deal is increasingly difficult. The credit markets are freezing especially in the very large "regional" banks like the BOKs, Prosperity, PNCs of the world and in the medium size regional banks like a BancFirst, Midfirst, Arvest, etc. that would typically be really interested in a deal like this.
A big part of it too was Reasor's really killed this deal and after they pulled out officially the developer just kind of sat on things like I said above. Reasor's strung people along for way too long and was committed but not committed and makes me think some of that was because the family was ready to just get out of the business. The Reasor's model is changing now that it's under new management. The new South BA store is over 60,000 sq. ft. and they are closing the Jenks store to open a new one at 121st & US 75 that will be close to 70,000 sq. ft. It's going in a new Tulsa Hills style strip center called Coal Creek or something like that, it was on the Jenks agenda last week.
They managed to get a bite from Homeland but that never made sense to me why Homeland would come back into the market and that be their first store of all places.
Hopefully with Oasis on board and they have plenty of $$ from ARPA funds this should be on solid footing. The developer has said there is 0% chance they will build this without a grocery anchor. If they can't get one, the project is dead. They build into their apartment model the premium associated with grocery mixed-use and are not interested in doing a concrete construction multifamily project without that anchor to drive a premium to the rental rates. This would be a project with lease rates likely $3.00 or more on small units and mid $2.00's for the larger units. Rental rates and occupancy remain high in Tulsa so market fundamentals are great and cap rates have not budged hardly at all here - there's Class B stuff selling still in the 5% range which is crazy given the rate increases.
Their biggest problem will be finding a bigger bank that is willing to make a loan that size in the current market given how much pressure the larger banks are under at the moment.
^ You nailed it. Lots of headwinds now that didn't exist a year ago. It comes down to how much the city wants to get the deal done and what other incentives they can add in to "close the gap". This type of project would absolutely be $2.50+/sf and will lease up fast even at those rates since it will be the only new midrise downtown, and arguably a better location than any other new downtown apartments especially with the grocery store component. F&C certainly has the capital and relationships to get this deal done but also have not developed in this market and their only rent comp's are office conversions, older highrises and new wood-frame apartments.
Quote from: SXSW on May 03, 2023, 11:33:44 AM
^ You nailed it. Lots of headwinds now that didn't exist a year ago. It comes down to how much the city wants to get the deal done and what other incentives they can add in to "close the gap". This type of project would absolutely be $2.50+/sf and will lease up fast even at those rates since it will be the only new midrise downtown, and arguably a better location than any other new downtown apartments especially with the grocery store component. F&C certainly has the capital and relationships to get this deal done but also have not developed in this market and their only rent comp's are office conversions, older highrises and new wood-frame apartments.
I think almost all the units at The View leased over $2.00 sq ft (except the restricted affordable/moderate income units). Given the lease up rate for that project it does add some good support that a new concrete mid-rise can support those types of rents. An extra $0.50-$1.00 a sq ft is worth it to not hear your neighbors every move too. Concrete flooring makes a huge noise difference as long as they don't cheap out of the party walls in the interiors.
Haven't heard any more on this as the clock runs out. Oasis is currently expanding in Killeen, TX, so I'm not sure if they are still interested in downtown Tulsa or not. Seems like they aren't so big that they would be expanding to multiple locations at once. I still feel like there's tremendous demand for hotels downtown, as well as apartments, so hopefully a new proposal will come along soon.
Quote from: shavethewhales on June 13, 2023, 09:18:51 AM
Haven't heard any more on this as the clock runs out. Oasis is currently expanding in Killeen, TX, so I'm not sure if they are still interested in downtown Tulsa or not. Seems like they aren't so big that they would be expanding to multiple locations at once. I still feel like there's tremendous demand for hotels downtown, as well as apartments, so hopefully a new proposal will come along soon.
With all of the incentives this should still be a good deal for F&C. Not sure what the hold up is but if F&C can't get it done I'm sure there is another group that would be interested.
I would put this as the highest priority project in downtown Tulsa for the following reasons:
1. Fills an entire city block that is currently a big parking lot with new development
2. Adds a GROCERY STORE which has been sorely needed for additional residential development
3. Adds an additional 260 apartments - so we're talking potentially up to 500 new residents
4. Adds another 100 hotel rooms
5. Connects the CBD to the Blue Dome District and continues to build up 3rd St as a commercial corridor
6. Adds a 12 story tower to the skyline which will require a tower crane - tower cranes are a good way to show growth/progress in a city
Assuming this is dead, no? Hopefully something can go on this lot within the next 5 years.. so many surface lots still in downtown.
Quote from: ComeOnBenjals on June 22, 2023, 08:55:42 AM
Assuming this is dead, no? Hopefully something can go on this lot within the next 5 years.. so many surface lots still in downtown.
The deadline is June 30
This is from the last TW article about the project - anyone know if this is in for any kind of permit with the city?
QuoteSome trustees expressed concern about what might happen if the project does not move forward. To address those fears, trustees included in the motion to extend the developer's purchase agreement deadline a clawback provision that would provide legal recourse for the trust to regain ownership of the property should Flaherty & Collins fail to get the project done.
"Honestly, my takeaway from today is that most of the onus between Jan. 1 and June 30 is on our team at the city with the building permit side," Bynum said. "So I am going to go back and talk with our Development Services team and make sure they are hooked up with these guys and working on it on the front end."
Well, no news is bad news. Guessing the PAC is going to claw back the property soon. At least with things starting over again we can see some "progress" instead of waiting for something to kick off for years. I get that the past few years have been crazy, but this was a big missed opportunity. Hopefully the next iteration is something even better than what was planned.
Quote from: shavethewhales on July 09, 2023, 04:45:29 PM
Well, no news is bad news. Guessing the PAC is going to claw back the property soon. At least with things starting over again we can see some "progress" instead of waiting for something to kick off for years. I get that the past few years have been crazy, but this was a big missed opportunity. Hopefully the next iteration is something even better than what was planned.
I know for a fact they have a permit set of construction documents completed. I have talked to subcontractors who have priced it. But I don't know if they ever actually submitted for permit or if they received an extension from the PAC.
With this being the most important project downtown I would hope the City would be all over either assisting F&C to get started or involved in selecting a new developer to lead the project.
Did some digging on the City permit site and there are a couple of active permits in review for the Annex project at 220 E 2nd St:
IDP-149728-2023
Applied Date: 5/23/23
Status: In Review
Description: Streetscaping for The Annex on 2nd & 3rd Streets and Cincinnati & Detroit Avenues. Pavement modifications, accessible ramps, sidewalks, trees, light poles, signs, and storm sewer in right of way. A parallel water line extension on Detroit.
BLDC-150884-2023
Applied Date: 6/8/23
Status: In Review
Description: The Annex: Core and Shell for a Parking Garage and Residential Tower
So there's that...
Yes this is going forward
That's awesome if this is still creeping forward. I know it takes time, I just want to see something concrete after waiting 7 years since the first contract was signed.
Quote from: shavethewhales on July 12, 2023, 01:00:15 PM
That's awesome if this is still creeping forward. I know it takes time, I just want to see something concrete after waiting 7 years since the first contract was signed.
Never a done deal until the tower crane goes up
Anyone heard updates on this? Today they have all the entrances blocked off.. only a few City of Tulsa vehicles are parked. Hoping that means something is happening.
Quote from: ComeOnBenjals on August 16, 2023, 02:59:44 PM
Anyone heard updates on this? Today they have all the entrances blocked off.. only a few City of Tulsa vehicles are parked. Hoping that means something is happening.
Wow, that would be big news.
There are building permits for 220 E 2ND ST S on the Tulsa permit portal
Quote from: BKDotCom on August 16, 2023, 04:19:45 PM
There are building permits for 220 E 2ND ST S on the Tulsa permit portal
The two permits that are actually issued are for $46 million and the others mention "The Annex". This really seems to be it.
I was told by a PAC trustee that FC had met the deadline and the transaction had funded and closed. I don't know why the assessor isn't showing the transfer yet. I also don't know why there hasn't been media/an announcement. But it's going forward.
That's freaking awesome. I'm so glad it's finally starting. There have been a lot of big projects downtown lately, but I feel like this is the biggest in a long while. 13 stories of residential AND a grocery store is a huge add. Not to mention the obvious reduction of our parking crater right in the heart of downtown.
FWIW, looks like the parking lot is back open today.. glad to hear the updates though! I'm weirdly sentimental about this project.. feels like this forum has been discussing it for years now :D
Quote from: ComeOnBenjals on August 17, 2023, 09:54:57 AM
FWIW, looks like the parking lot is back open today.. glad to hear the updates though! I'm weirdly sentimental about this project.. feels like this forum has been discussing it for years now :D
Well the original announcement was in 2015, so...
Cars are definitely parked in the lots today so nothing official yet. I have heard soon though.
Hmm, the IDP submittal on the city's portal says they aren't due for completion of the review until the 28th. They had to resubmit once. Hopefully they pass this time and can get permitted quickly.
Good to see this moving forward. Hopefully it gets built faster than it took to gestate. One was built in downtown shortly after I moved back and does a booming business. They also included smaller take out only versions of a local place Chompie's Deli.
Google Street view
https://goo.gl/maps/nFk9GjkW1jFAYWmu7 (https://goo.gl/maps/nFk9GjkW1jFAYWmu7)
Inside
https://goo.gl/maps/Czh4b93MEhHzHeP36 (https://goo.gl/maps/Czh4b93MEhHzHeP36)
Quote from: shavethewhales on August 17, 2023, 09:53:04 AM
That's freaking awesome. I'm so glad it's finally starting. There have been a lot of big projects downtown lately, but I feel like this is the biggest in a long while. 13 stories of residential AND a grocery store is a huge add. Not to mention the obvious reduction of our parking crater right in the heart of downtown.
I'm looking forward to sauntering downtown and tellin' all the young 'uns "I remember when this was nothing but parking lots as far as the eye could see" ;D
Quote from: tulsabug on August 18, 2023, 08:31:51 AM
I'm looking forward to sauntering downtown and tellin' all the young 'uns "I remember when this was nothing but parking lots as far as the eye could see" ;D
I got onto a Santa Fe passenger train in 1967 where the Indigo is on Elgin for a family trip to Kansas City.
https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/business/as-pac-development-with-downtown-grocery-store-deadline-nears-uncertainty-abounds/article_9579c28e-4e6b-11ee-81f5-b7c352d4b55c.html#tracking-source=home-top-story
Not a confidence inspiring update.
I thought they closed already but this explains why title never transferred.
The big hang-up all along has been the ironclad requirement that an acceptable grocer sign a lease prior to closing. This was known to be an issue back more than 5 years ago when Reasors backed out (this was related to debt covenants that gave their lender vetos on new stores). So Oasis was supposed to have solved it, but apparently now AJ from Oasis is being shown to be sketchy.
I don't know what they'll do this week. The city may have to be flexible. Seems like FC is at their wits end.
Quote from: Tulsan on September 11, 2023, 09:35:04 AM
I thought they closed already but this explains why title never transferred.
The big hang-up all along has been the ironclad requirement that an acceptable grocer sign a lease prior to closing. This was known to be an issue back more than 5 years ago when Reasors backed out (this was related to debt covenants that gave their lender vetos on new stores). So Oasis was supposed to have solved it, but apparently now AJ from Oasis is being shown to be sketchy.
I don't know what they'll do this week. The city may have to be flexible. Seems like FC is at their wits end.
Yep I've heard the same thing, the grocery piece is critical. Not sure if Oasis is sufficient to close. Too bad it can't be a Trader Joe's.
Ugh. He does look super shady. I can't believe that's what's going to stop this block from getting developed. It is important to get a grocer downtown, but after years of trying they need to just move on and make a deal work.
I read the article from Nondoc, and when I read that the head of Oasis has former ties to ORU and Victory Christian and now it seems the OSBI is involved I just have to shake my head. I had enough of Victory from an ex mil back in the mid 80's to last me a lifetime, and any mention of ORU and the first thought is "I must have $8 million or God is going to call me home."
Back to the grocery store issue, having Reasor's on board in the beginning made sense to have someone local involved. Did their pulling out have to do with Brookshire taking over? IIRC Reasor's withdrew in 2021 and announced 6 months later the buyout. It surprises me that someone like TJ, Wholepaycheck, Sprouts, Aldi, or Walmart Neighborhood Market hasn't stepped forward. They say they are looking for a "first class grocer" would meet the criteria. It just seems strange that no one has really made an effort, but at the same time I can see where they night be hesitant with this project closing in on the 10 year mark with no real movement.
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=21163.0 (http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=21163.0)
Based on news items I've seen over the last several months my guess is that retail shrink is what's keeping big names from stepping in.
Yeah, the homeless problem downtown is probably concerning for them. I've never actually been to the Reasor's on 15th, but I imagine they must have to have security guards like many of them do anyway. The DGX probably deals with tons of theft. Many times I've tried to stop by there in the evenings when they are supposed to be open and the doors will be locked with the lights on. I think the employees just take it into their own hands and close it whenever it's late or just not safe. I'm sure a full grocery store would need multiple security personnel at all times.
Still, it would stay busy. A decent deli counter would clean up. I work downtown and walk around each day, and there are hundreds of people going to lunch. Many of them go to DGX and get cheap heat-up meals. Hard to find much at the food court in Williams tower that is under $12 or so.
Is the shrink/shoplifting/theft just downtown or is spread among the other grocer locations? It just seems that a downtown store while having to have stepped up security would still be a profitable location.
I was reading the other day about the changing landscape for grocers in general with the merger between Kroger and Albertson's/Safe Way to compete with Walmart and Amazon. As a result of the merger they are selling 400+ stores to C&S Grocery Wholesale which owns Piggly Wiggly in the south east US and C&S will acquire Albertson's here in Arizona but will keep the Albertson's name. It was interesting in some of the reading I did that neither Kroger, Albertson's/Safeway and C&S (Kroger does have a delivery only service with a distribution center between OKC and Edmond) have any stores in Oklahoma. Every state around OK has some combination of stores from those. Seems Walmart has kind of a stranglehold on grocery in OK.
I know that there is Sprouts, Whole Foods, Aldi, Trader Joe's and Winco, but it just seems like there are fewer stores in general than there used to be.
Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on September 15, 2023, 11:42:09 AM
Is the shrink/shoplifting/theft just downtown or is spread among the other grocer locations? It just seems that a downtown store while having to have stepped up security would still be a profitable location.
I was reading the other day about the changing landscape for grocers in general with the merger between Kroger and Albertson's/Safe Way to compete with Walmart and Amazon. As a result of the merger they are selling 400+ stores to C&S Grocery Wholesale which owns Piggly Wiggly in the south east US and C&S will acquire Albertson's here in Arizona but will keep the Albertson's name. It was interesting in some of the reading I did that neither Kroger, Albertson's/Safeway and C&S (Kroger does have a delivery only service with a distribution center between OKC and Edmond) have any stores in Oklahoma. Every state around OK has some combination of stores from those. Seems Walmart has kind of a stranglehold on grocery in OK.
I know that there is Sprouts, Whole Foods, Aldi, Trader Joe's and Winco, but it just seems like there are fewer stores in general than there used to be.
Safeway in Oklahoma was long ago was spun off to it's own chain, Homeland, which is now gone from Tulsa. Reasor's bought out the Tulsa area Albertsons stores, I'm not sure what happened with the OKC area Albertsons stores.
I don't feel I have a lack of grocery stores to choose from. We mostly shop at Reasor's and Target, but within about a 10 minute drive we also have Walmart, Sprouts, Whole Foods, Fresh Market, Aldi, Sam's, Costco, and various Asian and Hispanic markets to choose from. I don't know Winco. There's also Warehouse Market chain, but I don't know of one close to me.
The apparent lack is probably just my own perception since the players and locations have changed a lot since I left. I remember when it went from Safeway to Homeland. When I lived near Pine & Memorial I used to shop at the Homeland at Pine & Sheridan, the Warehouse Market at Independence & Sheridan, and then there was another discount grocer on Admiral where Conn's/Dollar Tree/Planet Fitness is now. Homeland was the cleanest of the three and Warehouse Market and the other one always seemed to have stuff that was expired or near expiration date.
Growing up my mom grocery shopped at Oertle's, Safeway at Boman Acres and the store that later turned into Casa Bonita. I remember Katz that became Skagg's then Skagg's Alpha Beta, Jewell Osco, Skagg's Albertson's and then just Albertson's. When they built the one at 21st & Memorial mom started shopping there and McCartney's at I-44 & Memorial.
It will be interesting to see what happens, since isn't today a deadline of sorts for the PAC Project?
Well, this is over for now. My guess is the grocery store piece continues to be the deal-breaker. FC has done deals with many different municipalities that include grocer requirements, but it looks like some of these have stalled out in addition to Tulsa. Obviously the one they did in Indianapolis with Whole Foods is a signature development. I suppose they can always come back to the table - or the City can change its outlook.
That sucks. Seems like we got the rug pulled on us at the last hour once again. Not that it's really anyone's fault. I fully believe that the city, PAC, and F&C wanted to make a good well rounded project but they forces that have existed over the past 5 years or so have been very difficult to say the least.
I'm not sure what makes sense now. Maybe they'll only develop half the lot? Build a hotel on top of a parking garage and wait for the tides to change so a grocer can come in for the rest later on?
What a colossal disappointment. I can't believe no grocer was willing to commit. Can't wait to look at this parking crater for the next 25 years.
Quote from: swake on September 15, 2023, 12:01:37 PM
I don't feel I have a lack of grocery stores to choose from. We mostly shop at Reasor's and Target, but within about a 10 minute drive we also have Walmart, Sprouts, Whole Foods, Fresh Market, Aldi, Sam's, Costco, and various Asian and Hispanic markets to choose from. I don't know Winco. There's also Warehouse Market chain, but I don't know of one close to me.
Winco is a warehouse style grocery store with a LOT of grocery selections. Winco is at 71st & Memorial southwest corner with Sunshine Furniture and Ross Dress for Less. No membership is required. I might go there more often when the road work at the Creek Tpk and Memorial is done.
Downtown Denver, which had thousands more residents than DT Tulsa, only opened their first downtown grocery store 10 years ago. It's definitely not an easy process. I think if Reasor's had stayed on board the project would be nearing completion if not already finished. I think it's still the best location for that type of project downtown.
Someone knows why the downtown grocery store is a no-go. If that information was made public, maybe something could be done to correct it.
I'm really curious as to what there is about this project that no grocer wants to be a part of. I seriously doubt shrink/theft is the issue, there is just something more to this. It does make me wonder if what ever it is was the reason Reasor's pulled out and not because of the acquisition of Reasor's.
Quote from: Red Arrow on September 19, 2023, 11:13:45 AM
Winco is a warehouse style grocery store with a LOT of grocery selections. Winco is at 71st & Memorial southwest corner with Sunshine Furniture and Ross Dress for Less. No membership is required. I might go there more often when the road work at the Creek Tpk and Memorial is done.
I shop at WinCo from time to time especially when I was working graveyard, I could shop with ease at 4:30 AM on my way home from work.
I know some people who won't shop there because they don't take credit cards but that's where some of their savings come from.
Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on September 19, 2023, 01:18:13 PM
I shop at WinCo from time to time...
I know some people who won't shop there because they don't take credit cards but that's where some of their savings come from.
I'm old school. I pay cash for groceries and things I don't care to keep an itemized record about. I don't want to put a bag of chips on my credit card.
Quote from: swake on September 15, 2023, 12:01:37 PM
Safeway in Oklahoma was long ago was spun off to it's own chain, Homeland, which is now gone from Tulsa. Reasor's bought out the Tulsa area Albertsons stores, I'm not sure what happened with the OKC area Albertsons stores.
I don't feel I have a lack of grocery stores to choose from. We mostly shop at Reasor's and Target, but within about a 10 minute drive we also have Walmart, Sprouts, Whole Foods, Fresh Market, Aldi, Sam's, Costco, and various Asian and Hispanic markets to choose from. I don't know Winco. There's also Warehouse Market chain, but I don't know of one close to me.
Winco is from the west and finally moving this way! One of the kids worked for them for a while and thought very highly of the place - it is where they shopped as much as possible! Only left due to a move to MN.
While in OKC I would go there quite and bit after they opened up a few years ago and it was excellent! Really like it a lot! Have been a few times here but it is out of my normal traffic pattern and I "forget" it is there! Got to reprogram some neurons!
Quote from: Red Arrow on September 19, 2023, 09:41:10 PM
I'm old school. I pay cash for groceries and things I don't care to keep an itemized record about. I don't want to put a bag of chips on my credit card.
I put everything on the card! Costs nothing extra (most places - just a couple of restaurants) and I get points. Have gotten 2 gopros and some other smaller things. Getting ready to get third gopro! Just pay it off every month.... and don't buy ammunition with it!
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on September 19, 2023, 09:44:20 PM
Winco...
Really like it a lot! Have been a few times here but it is out of my normal traffic pattern and I "forget" it is there! Got to reprogram some neurons!
Just remember it's where no one wants to drive because everyone is there.
;D
Quote from: Red Arrow on September 19, 2023, 11:04:48 PM
Just remember it's where no one wants to drive because everyone is there.
;D
True! Drove thru yesterday. Not a fan. Also went thru OKC and it only reminds me of why I am glad NOT to be there as much as in the past! Also not a fan.
I wonder if they figure out a way to still build the apartment tower without the grocery store?
https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/business/development/supermarket-a-sticking-point-for-downtown-development-though-not-necessary-bynum-says/article_5fedff12-6168-11ee-a9d9-8fe997433023.html (https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/business/development/supermarket-a-sticking-point-for-downtown-development-though-not-necessary-bynum-says/article_5fedff12-6168-11ee-a9d9-8fe997433023.html)
Quote from: SXSW on October 12, 2023, 03:23:40 PM
I wonder if they figure out a way to still build the apartment tower without the grocery store?
https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/business/development/supermarket-a-sticking-point-for-downtown-development-though-not-necessary-bynum-says/article_5fedff12-6168-11ee-a9d9-8fe997433023.html (https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/business/development/supermarket-a-sticking-point-for-downtown-development-though-not-necessary-bynum-says/article_5fedff12-6168-11ee-a9d9-8fe997433023.html)
Seems like a pretty simple change order.