(CNN) The Pentagon said it would respond to Oklahoma's Republican governor after the state's National Guard indicated it would thwart a Defense Department mandate that troops be vaccinated against Covid-19.
The Department said it was "aware" of a memo issued this week by the Oklahoma National Guard's recently installed adjutant general which said the organization would not enforce the Department's vaccine mandate for its troops. The Pentagon mandated in August that US military service members get fully vaccinated against Covid-19.
The news in Oklahoma comes as multiple Republican-led states and other groups have filed suit to stop the Biden administration's vaccine requirement for federal contractors. And a federal appeals court on Friday reaffirmed its earlier decision to freeze a separate vaccine mandate that private businesses employing more than 100 workers require vaccination or impose testing guidelines for those not vaccinated. The two rules, slated to go into effect in January, cover about 100 million Americans.
"We are aware of the memo issued by the Oklahoma Adjutant General regarding COVID vaccination for Guardsmen and the governor's letter requesting exemption. We will respond to the governor appropriately," Pentagon spokesman John Kirby said in a statement to CNN. "That said, Secretary (Lloyd) Austin believes that a vaccinated force is a more ready force. That is why he has ordered mandatory vaccines for the total force, and that includes our National Guard, who contribute significantly to national missions at home and abroad."
In the memo to Oklahoma National Guard members issued Thursday and obtained by CNN affiliate KOKH-TV, Army Brig. Gen. Thomas Mancino said the Oklahoma National Guard has rejected the Defense Department's requirement that all service members receive the coronavirus vaccine and will allow personnel to opt out of the policy without repercussions. According to the memo, however, if they are federally mobilized, members must be vaccinated.
Earlier this month, Oklahoma Republican Gov. Kevin Stitt sent a letter to Sec. Austin requesting Covid-19 vaccine mandates be suspended for members of the state's National Guard.
"We estimate that over 800 Oklahoma guardsmen have not and do not plan on receiving the COVID-19 vaccine. This constitutes 10% of Oklahoma's overall force," Stitt wrote. "It is irresponsible for the federal government to place mandatory vaccine obligations on Oklahoma national guardsmen which could potentially limit the number of individuals that I can call upon to assist the state during an emergency."
Earlier this week, Stitt named Mancino to be adjutant general for Oklahoma and commander of the Oklahoma Army and Air National Guard.
Mancino's appointment requires confirmation by the Oklahoma State Senate. The former adjutant general Mike Thompson, who was abruptly relieved Wednesday, was a supporter of the Covid-19 vaccine and received a booster shot last month.
CNN has reached out to Stitt's office and the Oklahoma National Guard for further comment on this matter.
Earlier this year, Stitt signed into law SB 658, which largely prevented school boards from mandating masks or vaccinations, except under specific circumstances.
In August, Sec. Austin said in a memo he was directing the Military Department services to "immediately begin full vaccination" of all Armed Forces members or those in the Ready Reserve, including the National Guard, who are not yet fully vaccinated.
"After careful consultation with medical experts and military leadership, and with the support of the President, I have determined that mandatory vaccination against coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) is necessary to protect the Force and defend the American people," he said.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/13/politics/pentagon-oklahoma-national-guard-vaccine-mandate/index.html
OKLAHOMA CITY — Maj. Gen. Michael Thompson said Thursday that he was relieved of his duties as state adjutant general by Gov. Kevin Stitt.
Stitt announced Wednesday that he had appointed Brig. Gen. Thomas Mancino, assistant adjutant general, to replace Thompson as adjutant general and commander of the Oklahoma Army and Air National Guard.
Thompson said Stitt called him Wednesday to tell him he was relieved of his duties effective immediately. He learned from social media that his friend Mancino had been tapped as his replacement.
The outgoing adjutant general said Stitt had previously asked him to resign. Thompson said he asked Stitt if he could stay until Jan. 15 and that the governor agreed and that he had submitted a resignation letter.
"Everything changed after that," Thompson said.
Stitt's office was asked Wednesday for a copy of Thompson's resignation letter but has not provided it.
Thompson said he is not yet ready to discuss why Stitt wanted him to resign.
Asked to describe his relationship with Stitt, Thompson responded, "I wouldn't."
Thompson also was asked about what he thought about the governor's handling of the situation.
"He is the boss," Thompson said. "That is his style. At the end of the day, nobody can tell him differently."
Stitt recently sent a letter to U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin requesting that COVID-19 vaccine mandates be suspended for members of the Oklahoma National Guard.
"This mandate violates the personal freedoms of many Oklahomans, as it asks them to potentially sacrifice their personal beliefs in order to not lose their jobs," Stitt wrote.
Oklahoma Attorney General John O'Connor, who was appointed by Stitt, has sued the federal government over vaccine mandates.
Thompson said he had no comment on the letter but was doing everything he could to get compliance with the federal requirement for vaccinations, as "is everyone in the U.S. military."
"It is a requirement," he said.
Charlie Hannema, a Stitt spokesman, said the governor's replacement of Thompson wasn't related to vaccine requirements. He said Stitt had started a search for Thompson's replacement and decided on Mancino.
The governor felt it was time to make the change for the "continuity of operations," Hannema said.
Thompson, 58, was with the Oklahoma Highway Patrol for 28 years, seven as Department of Public Safety commissioner.
He has been with the Oklahoma National Guard for 38 years and had served for four years as adjutant general.
https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/govt-and-politics/state-adjutant-general-says-he-was-relieved-of-his-duties-by-gov-stitt/article_790f1450-433c-11ec-baa0-636951325a47.html
Simple fix - Biden should activate the Oklahoma Guard for one day which forces them all to get vaccinated by Stittler's "rules". Any unvaccinated Guard members who think they're going to buck the system by not showing up will be considered AWOL, court-martialed, given a dishonorable discharge and lose all benefits.
Quote from: tulsabug on November 13, 2021, 10:01:52 PM
Simple fix - Biden should activate the Oklahoma Guard for one day which forces them all to get vaccinated by Stittler's "rules". Any unvaccinated Guard members who think they're going to buck the system by not showing up will be considered AWOL, court-martialed, given a dishonorable discharge and lose all benefits.
So submit or have your life ruined. Didn't realize that the Pinochet rule of law was now in effect in the US. What's next, march everyone into vaccination stations and those that resist are exiled to camps?
So why is this vaccine different than all the dozens of others people the military have to get?
I was in the army and they literally have you walk past a long line of doctors giving you shots. Frankly I don't know what they all were and I don't think anyone cared, we had plenty other things on our mind lol. And there are a lot of countries that if you are going to get deployed to, you have to get shots protecting you from specific disease threats known to be in that country (and lord knows what else you are going to be exposed to in those places, just part of the deal and you know it going in).
Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on November 14, 2021, 07:41:40 AM
So submit or have your life ruined. Didn't realize that the Pinochet rule of law was now in effect in the US. What's next, march everyone into vaccination stations and those that resist are exiled to camps?
Look - this isn't facebook or nextdoor or anything like that, even in the political forum area. I think basically we're all more or less Tulsanow friends and have respect for each other due to that. So - respectfully - what is the issue you have with a vaccine mandate? Like William said, vaccines are already mandated in the military - currently it's about 17 of them. And not following a direct order is how you get kicked out of the military without benefits and they've already said that doing so isn't off the table in this regard. So why is a mandate on this vaccine a problem and not any of the other ones? And we're only talking about the military and military contractors - not the population at large.
If I remember correctly, the NG wasn't going to get vax until June next year. Now all of a sudden it's immediately.
Quote from: tulsabug on November 14, 2021, 06:39:43 PM
Look - this isn't facebook or nextdoor or anything like that, even in the political forum area. I think basically we're all more or less Tulsanow friends and have respect for each other due to that. So - respectfully - what is the issue you have with a vaccine mandate? Like William said, vaccines are already mandated in the military - currently it's about 17 of them. And not following a direct order is how you get kicked out of the military without benefits and they've already said that doing so isn't off the table in this regard. So why is a mandate on this vaccine a problem and not any of the other ones? And we're only talking about the military and military contractors - not the population at large.
All medical workers, all public school employees and school children have always had vaccine requirements. Colleges have always required vaccines. There's been no issue with that for the last 50+ years.
Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on November 14, 2021, 07:41:40 AM
So submit or have your life ruined. Didn't realize that the Pinochet rule of law was now in effect in the US. What's next, march everyone into vaccination stations and those that resist are exiled to camps?
Oh, ppuuullllleeeeaaaasssseeeee.....! Extremist right wing hyperbole much??
None of those guard troops are allowed to deploy without the vaccine, so what Stitt is literally doing is keeping the OK Nat Guard from being at the ready and able to do it's primary job! By definition. So, if they are not going to obey their sworn oath to follow lawful orders from their commanding officers, they absolutely should be dismissed with dishonorable discharge for several things like disobeying a direct order, dereliction of duty, and probably some more that I just can't think of right now. With loss of benefits.
And your statement seems to imply that you think the individual has some right not to participate that outweighs public health concerns. Which he/she does not. Never has, in this country or ANY other civilized country for at least a couple thousand years, and hopefully never will! This is the same garbage I expect to hear when smallpox gets out again and they start trying to vaccinate for it, and see the same resistance to that vaccine.
As an aside - this is also just another Stitty thing that clown has done. On top of so many more!
Quote from: whoatown on November 14, 2021, 06:57:32 PM
If I remember correctly, the NG wasn't going to get vax until June next year. Now all of a sudden it's immediately.
Various guards have been getting it since spring. Two grandkids who were deployed to Iraq both vaccinated at first of year as they left from a different state. And it has been ongoing in guard units since then. Across the country.
Quote from: swake on November 14, 2021, 06:59:50 PM
All medical workers, all public school employees and school children have always had vaccine requirements. Colleges have always required vaccines. There's been no issue with that for the last 50+ years.
True! This is just more anti-vaxxer BS, spewed by extremist right wingers who by the way just happen to all have been vaccinated.
https://www.ntd.com/hospital-system-that-operates-in-19-states-blocked-from-firing-workers-over-vaccine-oklahoma-ag_701802.html
Hospital system that operates in 19 states blocked from firing workers over vaccine mandate. Filed motion by the Attorney General in Oklahoma.
Also - the Supreme Court already decided that states can enforce compulsory vaccination laws in 1905 during the smallpox pandemic.
The Court's decision articulated the view that individual liberty is not absolute and is subject to the police power of the state.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts
Quote from: whoatown on November 14, 2021, 10:35:04 PM
https://www.ntd.com/hospital-system-that-operates-in-19-states-blocked-from-firing-workers-over-vaccine-oklahoma-ag_701802.html
Hospital system that operates in 19 states blocked from firing workers over vaccine mandate. Filed motion by the Attorney General in Oklahoma.
Incorrect. First line of the article - "Oklahoma was granted a temporary restraining order that blocks Ascension Healthcare from terminating employees who were denied religious exemptions from the firm's COVID-19 vaccine mandate."
Even this is problematic as:
1) You can't argue your religion doesn't allow vaccines if you've gotten other vaccines. Or if you have a tattoo. Or if you eat pork. Or if you're wearing polyester. Cherry-picking random lines from the bible doesn't equal an exemption.
2) Oklahoma is a "Right to Work" state. Ascension can simply say to those people "You're fired because you drove a Ford to work". That's how 'Right to Work' works.
3) Even if Ascension can't fire them, it doesn't mean they have to put them on the schedule. Or they can suspend them without pay. Or a million other ways you can make an employee leave when you can't fire them.
4) I thought the general Republican view is businesses shouldn't be regulated and the free market should decide it's own fate. I guess that only applies when they get a large enough campaign donation from the businesses.
Quote from: whoatown on November 14, 2021, 10:35:04 PM
https://www.ntd.com/hospital-system-that-operates-in-19-states-blocked-from-firing-workers-over-vaccine-oklahoma-ag_701802.html
Hospital system that operates in 19 states blocked from firing workers over vaccine mandate. Filed motion by the Attorney General in Oklahoma.
Amazing the lies spewed by the satanist anti-vaxxer right wing extremists!
There is NO real religion in this country that says there is a "religious exemption" to vaccines. None. So if the Church's aren't saying that, there is only one other possible source.
On the other hand, one real Church offers Official letters for those who would like to be exempt from working in proximity to unvaxxed....
https://www.spaghettimonster.org/
Quote from: tulsabug on November 15, 2021, 11:30:44 AM
Incorrect. First line of the article - "Oklahoma was granted a temporary restraining order that blocks Ascension Healthcare from terminating employees who were denied religious exemptions from the firm's COVID-19 vaccine mandate."
Even this is problematic as:
1) You can't argue your religion doesn't allow vaccines if you've gotten other vaccines. Or if you have a tattoo. Or if you eat pork. Or if you're wearing polyester. Cherry-picking random lines from the bible doesn't equal an exemption.
2) Oklahoma is a "Right to Work" state. Ascension can simply say to those people "You're fired because you drove a Ford to work". That's how 'Right to Work' works.
3) Even if Ascension can't fire them, it doesn't mean they have to put them on the schedule. Or they can suspend them without pay. Or a million other ways you can make an employee leave when you can't fire them.
4) I thought the general Republican view is businesses shouldn't be regulated and the free market should decide it's own fate. I guess that only applies when they get a large enough campaign donation from the businesses.
The only one that was offered a religious exemption was for the Catholic troops over a matter of aborted fetus parts in the vaccines themselves. That sounds like a rather narrow exemption.
Quote from: tulsabug on November 15, 2021, 11:17:56 AM
Also - the Supreme Court already decided that states can enforce compulsory vaccination laws in 1905 during the smallpox pandemic.
The Court's decision articulated the view that individual liberty is not absolute and is subject to the police power of the state.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts
The other one is that the vaccines are unregulated and the manufacturers can't be sued for how your body reacts or doesn't react to it. But just how do you go about proving whether the vaccine protected you? The smallpox or polio or whichever one it was did have a significant death toll, as compared to the common cold.
Quote from: whoatown on November 15, 2021, 01:44:17 PM
The other one is that the vaccines are unregulated and the manufacturers can't be sued for how your body reacts or doesn't react to it. But just how do you go about proving whether the vaccine protected you? The smallpox or polio or whichever one it was did have a significant death toll, as compared to the common cold.
Do you not consider the death toll from Covid-19 significant?
Edit: changed from Covid to Covid-19.
Quote from: Red Arrow on November 15, 2021, 02:01:06 PM
Do you not consider the death toll from Covid significant?
The CDC just came out with a number of people whose natural immunity took over and survived. As far as I know they have a hard time distinguishing the common cold from the flu from the corona virus. But also the corona virus is what they call the common cold and it does take some lives every year, but most people survive it.
Quote from: whoatown on November 15, 2021, 02:36:55 PM
The CDC just came out with a number of people whose natural immunity took over and survived. As far as I know they have a hard time distinguishing the common cold from the flu from the corona virus. But also the corona virus is what they call the common cold and it does take some lives every year, but most people survive it.
I don't believe anyone is calling Covid-19 a common cold. Please provide a credible link saying anyone is. There are several varieties of the corona virus but Covid-19 is the bug of interest at the moment. I do know several people who had Covid-19 and survived. They caught it before the vaccines were available. Mostly they were involved in situations where they could not socially distance themselves because of their, or their spouse's, occupation(s). Some were just stupid and ignored CDC guidelines.
Quote from: whoatown on November 15, 2021, 01:40:16 PM
The only one that was offered a religious exemption was for the Catholic troops over a matter of aborted fetus parts in the vaccines themselves. That sounds like a rather narrow exemption.
"Do the COVID-19 vaccines contain aborted fetal cells?"
Answer from infectious disease expert and practicing Catholic James Lawler, MD:
No, the COVID-19 vaccines do not contain any aborted fetal cells. However, fetal cell lines – cells grown in a laboratory based on aborted fetal cells collected generations ago – were used in testing during research and development of the mRNA vaccines, and during production of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine.
It is true that decades ago, scientists decided to use fetal tissue to start the cell lines we use to test drugs today. However, the description of ongoing modern fetal tissue harvesting to create vaccines is dishonest sensationalism.
As a practicing Catholic, I think the moral balance of indirectly benefitting from an abortion that occurred 50 years ago in order to take a vaccine that will prevent further death in the community is a no-brainer – especially considering that so many of the over 620,000 American deaths have occurred in the most vulnerable and marginalized in our society. We need to focus on saving lives right now. We need to care for our neighbors.
The Vatican and bishops agree. The Vatican has issued clear guidance that permits Roman Catholics in good faith to receive COVID-19 vaccines that use fetal cell lines in development or production.
https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/you-asked-we-answered-do-the-covid-19-vaccines-contain-aborted-fetal-cells
Quote from: Red Arrow on November 15, 2021, 03:04:10 PM
I don't believe anyone is calling Covid-19 a common cold. Please provide a credible link saying anyone is. There are several varieties of the corona virus but Covid-19 is the bug of interest at the moment. I do know several people who had Covid-19 and survived. They caught it before the vaccines were available. Mostly they were involved in situations where they could not socially distance themselves because of their, or their spouse's, occupation(s). Some were just stupid and ignored CDC guidelines.
Well, there's this dangerous imbecile:
"It looks like the coronavirus is being weaponized as yet another element to bring down Donald Trump," Limbaugh said during his Monday show. "Now, I want to tell you the truth about the coronavirus. ... Yeah, I'm dead right on this. The coronavirus is the common cold, folks."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/02/25/limbaugh-coronavirus-trump/
...then all the times Trump called it the flu:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-mixed-messages/like-the-flu-trumps-coronavirus-messaging-confuses-public-pandemic-researchers-say-idUSKBN2102GY
Quote from: patric on November 15, 2021, 05:49:47 PM
Well, there's this dangerous imbecile:
"It looks like the coronavirus is being weaponized as yet another element to bring down Donald Trump," Limbaugh said during his Monday show. "Now, I want to tell you the truth about the coronavirus. ... Yeah, I'm dead right on this. The coronavirus is the common cold, folks."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/02/25/limbaugh-coronavirus-trump/
...then all the times Trump called it the flu:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-mixed-messages/like-the-flu-trumps-coronavirus-messaging-confuses-public-pandemic-researchers-say-idUSKBN2102GY
I did say credible.
Quote from: whoatown on November 15, 2021, 01:44:17 PM
The other one is that the vaccines are unregulated and the manufacturers can't be sued for how your body reacts or doesn't react to it. But just how do you go about proving whether the vaccine protected you? The smallpox or polio or whichever one it was did have a significant death toll, as compared to the common cold.
Wow! So 750,000 dead is just not all that significant, huh??
Just way more than the 1918 influenza epidemic in the US.
And way more than polio ever killed over 10 times as much time! And yet, people actually cared about others dying then - unlike the dismissive extremist radicals today. Who still have been vaccinated while urging their Minions to not get vaccinated.
Quote from: Red Arrow on November 15, 2021, 03:04:10 PM
I don't believe anyone is calling Covid-19 a common cold. Please provide a credible link saying anyone is. There are several varieties of the corona virus but Covid-19 is the bug of interest at the moment. I do know several people who had Covid-19 and survived. They caught it before the vaccines were available. Mostly they were involved in situations where they could not socially distance themselves because of their, or their spouse's, occupation(s). Some were just stupid and ignored CDC guidelines.
Ok but if they caught it and survived what would taking the vaccine now prevent?
Quote from: patric on November 15, 2021, 05:29:10 PM
"Do the COVID-19 vaccines contain aborted fetal cells?"
Answer from infectious disease expert and practicing Catholic James Lawler, MD:
No, the COVID-19 vaccines do not contain any aborted fetal cells. However, fetal cell lines – cells grown in a laboratory based on aborted fetal cells collected generations ago – were used in testing during research and development of the mRNA vaccines, and during production of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine.
It is true that decades ago, scientists decided to use fetal tissue to start the cell lines we use to test drugs today. However, the description of ongoing modern fetal tissue harvesting to create vaccines is dishonest sensationalism.
As a practicing Catholic, I think the moral balance of indirectly benefitting from an abortion that occurred 50 years ago in order to take a vaccine that will prevent further death in the community is a no-brainer – especially considering that so many of the over 620,000 American deaths have occurred in the most vulnerable and marginalized in our society. We need to focus on saving lives right now. We need to care for our neighbors.
The Vatican and bishops agree. The Vatican has issued clear guidance that permits Roman Catholics in good faith to receive COVID-19 vaccines that use fetal cell lines in development or production.
https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/you-asked-we-answered-do-the-covid-19-vaccines-contain-aborted-fetal-cells
And along those same lines, Louis Pasteur conducted an experiment, some time ago to prove his theory about how proper practices and some inoculations could prevent further spread of infections. Now do we always go about needing a vaccine? Some say that vaccines are ancient medical science and that we have advanced past that, so why do we still use them? And what are they putting in them? They don't seem to want to tell us with this corona virus.
And the abortions would be more recent than 50 years ago.
Quote from: whoatown on November 16, 2021, 12:26:07 AM
Ok but if they caught it and survived what would taking the vaccine now prevent?
It has not been shown that having survived Covid-19 provides a lifetime immunity. So...the vaccine would provide them with increased protection from getting Covid-19 again.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on November 15, 2021, 06:34:37 PM
Wow! So 750,000 dead is just not all that significant, huh??
Just way more than the 1918 influenza epidemic in the US.
And way more than polio ever killed over 10 times as much time! And yet, people actually cared about others dying then - unlike the dismissive extremist radicals today. Who still have been vaccinated while urging their Minions to not get vaccinated.
Who are these people getting vaccinated who are telling others not to get vaccinated? I would think if they were getting vaccinated, they'd be encouraging others to get vaccinated, while those who decide not to are advising others to not get the vaccine?
Quote from: whoatown on November 16, 2021, 12:32:35 AM
Some say that vaccines are ancient medical science and that we have advanced past that
Where do you find this kind of information? Seems sketchy to me.
QuoteAnd the abortions would be more recent than 50 years ago.
Do you think there were no abortions more than 50 years ago?
Quote from: Red Arrow on November 16, 2021, 12:44:31 AM
Where do you find this kind of information? Seems sketchy to me.
Do you think there were no abortions more than 50 years ago?
The biggest problem they had during world war I and II was malaria. That was the original purpose of the CDC back then and don't you think they would have found a solution for it then? Mosquitos seem to like to carry diseases and malaria was one of them.
Just saying that abortions for the more recent vaccines probably came from more recent abortions. Eventually would run out if they keep making vaccines all this time.
Vacca means cow, which is where the first vaccines came from. Variolation came before that.
Quote from: whoatown on November 16, 2021, 12:51:51 AM
The biggest problem they had during world war I and II was malaria. That was the original purpose of the CDC back then and don't you think they would have found a solution for it then? Mosquitos seem to like to carry diseases and malaria was one of them.
What does that have to do with "Some say that vaccines are ancient medical science and that we have advanced past that"?
QuoteVacca means cow, which is where the first vaccines came from. Variolation came before that.
Interesting brief history:
https://www.labroots.com/trending/microbiology/4928/variolation-vaccination
Quote from: Red Arrow on November 16, 2021, 01:08:31 AM
What does that have to do with "Some say that vaccines are ancient medical science and that we have advanced past that"?
Interesting brief history:
https://www.labroots.com/trending/microbiology/4928/variolation-vaccination
Interestingly enough, it's only been just in the last month that they even have come up with a malaria vaccine. It was treated with other methods for about the past 50 years. So vaccines haven't always been the preventative or otherwise solution to everything.
Quote from: whoatown on November 16, 2021, 12:51:51 AM
Just saying that abortions for the more recent vaccines probably came from more recent abortions. Eventually would run out if they keep making vaccines all this time.
Wrong. You completely misunderstand how fetal stem cell lines work and are making false assumptions based on those misunderstandings.
From Dr. James Lawler - Infectious Disease Expert (board certified - not some dude from youtube trying to up his view count by spouting BS) https://www.nebraskamed.com/doctors/james-v-lawler - you're welcome to call him - his number is on that page. As a side-note - he's also a practicing Catholic.
Here's the article link - https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/you-asked-we-answered-do-the-covid-19-vaccines-contain-aborted-fetal-cells
"Fetal cell lines are cells that grow in a laboratory. They descend from cells taken from abortions in the 1970s and 1980s.
Those individual cells from the 1970s and 1980s have since multiplied into many new cells over the past four or five decades, creating the fetal cell lines I mentioned above. Current fetal cell lines are thousands of generations removed from the original fetal tissue. They do not contain any tissue from a fetus.
Vaccine makers may use these fetal cell lines during the following two phases:
Research and development
Production and manufacturing
When it comes to the Pfizer and Moderna COVID-19 vaccines, fetal cell line HEK 293 was used during the research and development phase. All HEK 293 cells are descended from tissue taken from a 1973 abortion that took place in the Netherlands. Using fetal cell lines to test the effectiveness and safety of medications is common practice, because they provide a consistent and well-documented standard.
For the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, fetal cell lines were used in the production and manufacturing stage. To make the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, scientists infect PER.C6 fetal cell lines to grow the adenovirus vector. (Learn more about how viral vector vaccines work.) All PER.C6 cells used to manufacture the Johnson & Johnson vaccine are descended from tissue taken from a 1985 abortion that took place in the Netherlands. This cell line is used because it is a well-studied industry standard for safe and reliable production of viral vector vaccines."
Quote from: whoatown on November 16, 2021, 01:14:02 AM
Interestingly enough, it's only been just in the last month that they even have come up with a malaria vaccine. It was treated with other methods for about the past 50 years. So vaccines haven't always been the preventative or otherwise solution to everything.
So you are not going to (cannot?) answer the question about "Some say that vaccines are ancient medical science and that we have advanced past that". Who is saying that? Inquiring minds want to know.
Quote from: Red Arrow on November 16, 2021, 08:15:58 AM
So you are not going to (cannot?) answer the question about "Some say that vaccines are ancient medical science and that we have advanced past that". Who is saying that? Inquiring minds want to know.
Going back to Pasteur and even farther? That's not ancient? Pasteur conducted an experiment. Vaccines are still an experiment continuing into today? There are other solutions provided besides just vaccines that are possibly more effective. But only vaccines? What are you expecting to say? Vaccines are the newest idea to come out of the medical industry simply because they keep creating new vaccines?
Quote from: whoatown on November 16, 2021, 12:26:07 AM
Ok but if they caught it and survived what would taking the vaccine now prevent?
People who have had a "hybrid" exposure to the virus. Specifically, they were infected with the coronavirus in 2020 and then immunized with mRNA vaccines this year. "Those people have amazing responses to the vaccine," says virologist Theodora Hatziioannou at Rockefeller University, who also helped lead several of the studies.
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/09/07/1033677208/new-studies-find-evidence-of-superhuman-immunity-to-covid-19-in-some-individuals
Quote from: whoatown on November 16, 2021, 10:18:42 AM
Going back to Pasteur and even farther? That's not ancient? Pasteur conducted an experiment. Vaccines are still an experiment continuing into today? There are other solutions provided besides just vaccines that are possibly more effective. But only vaccines? What are you expecting to say? Vaccines are the newest idea to come out of the medical industry simply because they keep creating new vaccines?
More effective like bleach? Horse dewormer?
I'm just asking questions here.
Quote from: whoatown on November 16, 2021, 10:18:42 AM
Going back to Pasteur and even farther? That's not ancient? Pasteur conducted an experiment. Vaccines are still an experiment continuing into today? There are other solutions provided besides just vaccines that are possibly more effective. But only vaccines? What are you expecting to say? Vaccines are the newest idea to come out of the medical industry simply because they keep creating new vaccines?
I am expecting you to identify who "some" is/are. ("Some say that vaccines are ancient medical science and that we have advanced past that".)
Human biology hasn't changed much since Pasteur. Masks and social distancing seem to help prevent the spread of Covid-19 type diseases. Unfortunately, requiring people to wear a mask infringes on their right to infect other people. Mosquito control seems to help control malaria although malaria is still a BIG seasonal problem in some parts of Africa. Treating a disease that usually does not result in dire consequences is probably a reasonable choice. Preventing the spread of a disastrous disease like Covid-19 with an effective vaccination also seems like a reasonable choice.
Quote from: whoatown on November 16, 2021, 12:37:21 AM
Who are these people getting vaccinated who are telling others not to get vaccinated? I would think if they were getting vaccinated, they'd be encouraging others to get vaccinated, while those who decide not to are advising others to not get the vaccine?
You would think that....but then you would be wrong.
Most of the Russian news mouthpieces at Fake Fox News are doing exactly that.
Quote from: whoatown on November 16, 2021, 10:18:42 AM
Going back to Pasteur and even farther? That's not ancient? Pasteur conducted an experiment. Vaccines are still an experiment continuing into today? There are other solutions provided besides just vaccines that are possibly more effective. But only vaccines? What are you expecting to say? Vaccines are the newest idea to come out of the medical industry simply because they keep creating new vaccines?
You keep spewing this circular logic nonsense without ever answering a question - there have been several like you here in the past. You are trying to put words into peoples mouths at best. At worst this garbage is an attempt to sow doubt about vaccines and current medical care in general.
Just for everyone else out there with an actual thought process, medical care has, in general, followed the latest science available at the time. Like when they used leaches for bleeding people - that got way out of hand and way beyond the limits of its actual helpfulness, and we have come full circle to using the again for certain type of injuries. Since there is a valid place for that treatment! That is a classic case of when the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.
Give an example of better solution to any of the major viral, some of the bacterial, and even one of the parasite, diseases of the last few hundred or few thousand years. While we are waiting the next few thousand years to get an answer from you, people can and should use the REAL tools available today.
And one quote in particular of yours, "There are other solutions provided besides just vaccines that are possibly more effective." shows that you probably are getting ready to start making mewling sounds about insecticide treatments. Or even injecting bleach like the Russian Minion did. If you have a better treatment, why are you withholding from the world?? Millions have already died without covid vaccines, and yet, here you sit just watching and letting it continue....
Quote from: whoatown on November 16, 2021, 01:14:02 AM
Interestingly enough, it's only been just in the last month that they even have come up with a malaria vaccine. It was treated with other methods for about the past 50 years. So vaccines haven't always been the preventative or otherwise solution to everything.
None of which were very good. And many are no longer effective due to resistance parasites. But one was pushed by Trump as cure for covid. Which it is not.
Side note; I went to Venezuela and a friend went to Indonesia at the same time for the company we worked for. Both got Chloroquine to take as preventative. He caught malaria, I did not. I was watching tv in the hotel one night in El Tigre and the big news lead was about the malaria epidemic they were experiencing at the time. I was lucky. And no, you do not want to take Chloroquine if you don't have to. Makes you sick the entire time and several days after. Nasty stuff.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on November 16, 2021, 10:29:04 PM
None of which were very good. And many are no longer effective due to resistance parasites. But one was pushed by Trump as cure for covid. Which it is not.
Side note; I went to Venezuela and a friend went to Indonesia at the same time for the company we worked for. Both got Chloroquine to take as preventative. He caught malaria, I did not. I was watching tv in the hotel one night in El Tigre and the big news lead was about the malaria epidemic they were experiencing at the time. I was lucky. And no, you do not want to take Chloroquine if you don't have to. Makes you sick the entire time and several days after. Nasty stuff.
So much in the same way that bacteria has now become super bugs as they are resistant to antibiotic (typically overuse and not just from humans taking medicines, they pasteurize and antibiotic many foods as well). So herein the same issue abounds from the inoculation with the vaccines to the antibacterial (both good and bad bacteria) of antibiotics. Different facets of disease if you will, having similar problems when it comes to diminishing law of returns. So when these traditional methods no longer work they have to find something else to work with. Some of these treatments may leave traces or have chemical memories that may affect further treatment in other ways. Even taking samples of blood work or for donations tends to make using those capillaries later less effective and a new vein has to be used to draw blood.
Quote from: whoatown on November 17, 2021, 12:59:13 AM
So much in the same way that bacteria has now become super bugs as they are resistant to antibiotic (typically overuse and not just from humans taking medicines, they pasteurize and antibiotic many foods as well). So herein the same issue abounds from the inoculation with the vaccines to the antibacterial (both good and bad bacteria) of antibiotics. Different facets of disease if you will, having similar problems when it comes to diminishing law of returns. So when these traditional methods no longer work they have to find something else to work with. Some of these treatments may leave traces or have chemical memories that may affect further treatment in other ways. Even taking samples of blood work or for donations tends to make using those capillaries later less effective and a new vein has to be used to draw blood.
Keep trying. Your distortion, dissemination, and attempts to muddy the water are inane. Hypothetical gobble-dy-gook versus real world results happening today.
Quote from: tulsabug on November 14, 2021, 06:39:43 PM
Like William said, vaccines are already mandated in the military - currently it's about 17 of them. And not following a direct order is how you get kicked out of the military without benefits and they've already said that doing so isn't off the table in this regard. So why is a mandate on this vaccine a problem and not any of the other ones? And we're only talking about the military and military contractors - not the population at large.
Oklahoma Guard commander defends rejecting vaccine mandate as Pentagon warns troops who refuse
The Oklahoma National Guard's commanding general Wednesday defended his directive countermanding federal requirements that all U.S. military personnel be vaccinated against the coronavirus, telling troops in a private town hall event that he was following orders from the state's Republican governor and meant no disrespect to his superiors at the Pentagon.
Brig. Gen. Thomas Mancino, speaking to several dozen members of the Oklahoma National Guard in Oklahoma City, cast himself as an apolitical leader bound by law to answer to Gov. Kevin Stitt (R), who fired the state's previous National Guard commander last week and ordered Mancino the next day to issue a policy allowing members to avoid the vaccine.
The extraordinary move by Stitt has prompted interest among multiple governors and National Guard commanders to explore similar policies in their states, Oklahoma officials said, while leaving the Biden administration with little recourse but to hold individual service members accountable for refusing lawful orders that their immediate chain of command has disavowed.
"I did not initiate a civilian-military crisis just because I thought it was cool, right?" Mancino said, according to a recording of his remarks obtained by The Washington Post and later confirmed by the general in an interview.
Mancino said during the town hall that he had consulted with National Guard lawyers and appeared to point out a path for the Pentagon if it wishes to assert its authority, saying that if he is placed on federal orders, he will carry out the vaccination mandate, which is a centerpiece of President Biden's strategy for bringing the pandemic under control. The general showed deference to Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin in his remarks, noting that the two had served together in Afghanistan and joking that the secretary is "a very big individual who can crush me like a bug with his hands."
Mancino is vaccinated and encourages his troops to get vaccinated if they want, he said in the interview after his town hall remarks. "Where we differ," he added, speaking about the Pentagon directive, "is my governor said it's a personal choice on whether you do."
Pentagon officials said Wednesday that they have the authority to require coronavirus vaccination for National Guard personnel and that continued refusal would put thousands of military careers in jeopardy, in the administration's sharpest response yet to the unprecedented bid by a subordinate command to undermine unambiguous orders from the U.S. military's senior-most civilian authority.
"We are not aware of any governor attempting to prohibit members from receiving the vaccine, and don't see this as placing any individual member in conflict with state authorities," Pentagon spokesperson John Kirby said in a statement. "Failure to receive the vaccine may jeopardize an individual member's status in the National Guard."
Kirby did not address questions seeking clarity as to how the Defense Department planned to inform the roughly 8,200 members of the Oklahoma National Guard that it should ignore Mancino's policy and instead comply with the federal directive to get vaccinated.
Stitt has asked Austin to exempt Oklahoma Guard personnel from the requirement. Austin gave a news conference at the Pentagon on Wednesday but fielded no questions about the matter.
Kirby in his statement said that
governors "may not relieve individual members of the Guard from their obligation to comply with this valid medical readiness requirement." Austin has not yet responded to the request, the governor's office said.
A defense official who discussed the dilemma in a conference call with reporters would not disclose whether the Pentagon would seek to reprimand commanders who refuse to enforce the order, which was issued by Austin in August. The official spoke on the condition of anonymity under ground rules set by the Pentagon.
The secretaries of the Army and Air Force will work with Gen. Daniel Hokanson, who heads the National Guard Bureau, to address potential consequences for those who refuse orders, the official said, noting they would take action on a "case-by-case basis."
The vaccination requirement has faced resistance within pockets of the military. While a majority of the active-duty force is fully vaccinated, thousands continue to hold out — and overall, far fewer National Guard personnel have chosen to comply.
Oklahoma's policy could be a road map for other GOP governors wishing to fight Biden's mandates. More than five National Guard commanders in other states have contacted officials in Oklahoma expressing interest in a similar policy, according to a senior military official in the state who spoke on the condition of anonymity due to the issue's political sensitivity.
Multiple Republican governors also have spoken to Stitt about duplicating his initiative, said Carly Atchison, a spokeswoman. She did not have more information about which governors spoke to Stitt.
Oklahoma's new policy walks a line between a state's military orders, in which the governor acts as commander in chief for operations such as disaster relief, and federal military orders, in which National Guard members carry out missions under the president's command. In notifying personnel of the new policy, Mancino last week said they would be subject to the vaccine requirement if activated for a federally mandated assignment, such as an overseas deployment.
It is unclear how Pentagon officials will navigate the politically volatile issue, though one potential impediment to a swift resolution is the long time frame Army officials established for Guard members to comply with the mandate. About 54 percent of Army Guard members in the state — roughly 3,200 soldiers — have not received any dose of the vaccine, according to state data. But their deadline to be fully vaccinated is in June.
In contrast, Air National Guard members must be fully vaccinated by Dec. 12, and nearly 89 percent of the state's airmen have already complied.
The National Guard has absorbed a disproportionate share of the 75 deaths among military personnel infected with the coronavirus. National Guard members account for 28 percent of all covid-19-related deaths in the military, but they constitute only about 19 percent of the entire armed forces. The Army National Guard has the highest death toll across the services, according to Pentagon data.
In his town hall in Oklahoma City, Mancino expressed frustration with how he has been portrayed and asked at the outset of his remarks if any journalists were in the room. He pointed specifically to comments by MSNBC commentator Rachel Maddow, who noted on her show Monday that both the Oklahoma National Guard and the Defense Department are armed and asked, "If both the Oklahoma National Guard and the Defense Department refuse to back down on this, how does this resolve?"
Mancino said that Maddow "knows better" than to imply "that I'm the next Robert E. Lee, and that I'm instigating a civil war," referencing the Confederate military leader. If placed under federal statutes, Mancino said, he would apologize to Stitt and carry out the Biden administration's orders.
"Does that make me two-faced? Does that make me evil? No," Mancino said. "It makes me a professional military officer. I don't have political opinions. I execute orders."
Mancino took questions from National Guard troops, including one who asked if the general was aware that some under his command felt coerced to get the vaccine.
"I am aware of it," Mancino responded. "I will say this: Up until the point I issued my order, you were under a lawful order to take that vaccine."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2021/11/17/vaccine-mandate-oklahoma-national-guard/
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on November 17, 2021, 06:13:11 PM
Keep trying. Your distortion, dissemination, and attempts to muddy the water are inane. Hypothetical gobble-dy-gook versus real world results happening today.
Are vaccines the only solution you personally will accept? It seems like vaccines are the only answer you will accept.
Quote from: whoatown on November 18, 2021, 12:54:21 AM
Are vaccines the only solution you personally will accept? It seems like vaccines are the only answer you will accept.
It appears you are willing to try anything other than a vaccine, including things known to be harmful or at best don't work.
Quote from: whoatown on November 18, 2021, 12:54:21 AM
Are vaccines the only solution you personally will accept? It seems like vaccines are the only answer you will accept.
Are you really that stupid?? Or is this just your "trolling act" ?
I accept what works best at any given time. And am very flexible to change when new information becomes available.
How about you?? Do YOU accept what is proven to be the most effective?? Or are you still getting your treatment meds at Tractor Supply?
Quote from: Red Arrow on November 18, 2021, 11:45:11 AM
It appears you are willing to try anything other than a vaccine, including things known to be harmful or at best don't work.
Let me clarify something here. The FDA didn't actually consider the mRNA injection to be qualified as a vaccine. And instead, they wanted to change the definition of vaccine to be able to include the mRNA injection. By the FDA's definition the mRNA injection was not a vaccine.
Quote from: whoatown on November 19, 2021, 11:25:29 AM
Let me clarify something here. The FDA didn't actually consider the mRNA injection to be qualified as a vaccine. And instead, they wanted to change the definition of vaccine to be able to include the mRNA injection. By the FDA's definition the mRNA injection was not a vaccine.
No. Here is the story before the MAGA enhancements:
Why did CDC change its definition for 'vaccine'? Agency explains move as skeptics lurk
Social media is calling bluff on the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention for modifying its definition of the words "vaccine" and "vaccination" on its website.
Before the change, the definition for "vaccination" read, "the act of introducing a vaccine into the body to produce immunity to a specific disease." Now, the word "immunity" has been switched to "protection."
The term "vaccine" also got a makeover. The CDC's definition changed from "a product that stimulates a person's immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease" to the current "a preparation that is used to stimulate the body's immune response against diseases."
Some people have speculated that the unannounced changes were the CDC's attempt to hide the fact COVID-19 vaccines are not 100% effective at preventing coronavirus infection. U.S. Representative Thomas Massie (R) of Kentucky said in a popular tweet the CDC has "been busy at the Ministry of Truth."
However, a CDC spokesperson told McClatchy News the "slight changes in wording over time ... haven't impacted the overall definition."
The previous definitions could have been "interpreted to mean that vaccines were 100% effective, which has never been the case for any vaccine, so the current definition is more transparent, and also describes the ways in which vaccines can be administered," the spokesperson said.
"It's also important to note that the modifications to the definition of 'vaccine' don't change the fact that vaccines and the act of vaccination has prevented millions of illnesses and saved countless lives," the spokesperson said in an email.
There remains the misconception that COVID-19 vaccines were designed to prevent infections altogether, leading people to believe the vaccines aren't working as they should when they learn about breakthrough infections among the vaccinated.
But the coronavirus vaccines are doing exactly what they were designed to do, which is to prevent severe disease, including the need for hospitalization, and death — even in the presence of more dangerous versions of the virus such as the delta variant.
While data show the coronavirus shots are preventing infections in many outbreak scenarios, the fact breakthrough infections are happening doesn't suggest failure, experts say.
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article254111268.html
Quote from: whoatown on November 19, 2021, 11:25:29 AM
Let me clarify something here. The FDA didn't actually consider the mRNA injection to be qualified as a vaccine. And instead, they wanted to change the definition of vaccine to be able to include the mRNA injection. By the FDA's definition the mRNA injection was not a vaccine.
Continuing with your Gish Gallop, we all see....
No. Let me clarify with the Truth! You are not trying to clarify anything. You are trying to lie, distort, parse, twist, and spew as much BS as possible. And still have not answered the question - any of them! ...which is part of the 'script'.
And the lie you are passing right now about 'definition' of a vaccine is one started by David Martin, a financial analyst and self-help entrepreneur who operates a YouTube channel pushing COVID-19 conspiracy theories. But you already know that. Probably where you got this particular crock of carp.
Neither the CDC nor the FDA stipulate that vaccines must both provide immunity and block transmission of a virus. Which you also already know, and yet choose to spew your lies about it.
You are indulging in your Russian Troll moment.
(CNN) With less than one month until the Army's deadline to vaccinate its active-duty force, the service will begin barring soldiers who refuse to be vaccinated against Covid-19 without an exemption from reenlistment, promotions, and other "favorable personnel actions."
In a memo dated November 16, Army Secretary Christine Wormuth said soldiers who refuse the vaccine would be "flagged," preventing them from "reenlistment, reassignment, promotion, appearance before a semi-centralized promotion board, issuance of awards and decorations" and more.
The Navy and the Marine Corps issued similar guidance last month, paving the way for the discharge of service members who refuse to be vaccinated.
Soldiers who have received an exemption or whose exemption request is pending will not be flagged.
The guidance, which also applies to the Army Reserve and the Army National Guard, was sent as the head of the Oklahoma National Guard finds himself in dispute with the Pentagon for refusing to enforce the vaccine mandate.
The Army's deadline for all active-duty military members to get vaccinated is December 15 while National Guard soldiers are required to be vaccinated by June 30, 2022. Soldiers, including Reserve and Guard, can be flagged even before these deadlines for refusing the vaccine.
"The Soldier will remain flagged until they are fully vaccinated, receive an approved medical or administrative exemption, or are separated from the Army," Wormuth wrote.
A soldier is flagged on the date they make a "final declination" to be immunized after meeting with a medical professional and receiving a second order from a commander to get the Covid-19 vaccine.
Flagged soldiers will also be ineligible for tuition assistance, attending military or civilian schools, and being paid their enlistment bonuses.
Though the Air Force hasn't issued specific guidance about reenlistments or promotions, Secretary Frank Kendall made it clear Thursday that airmen who refuse the vaccine will be discharged.
"The bottom line is that willfully disobeying a lawful order is incompatible with military service and to get a vaccination is a lawful order," Kendall said in a Facebook event when asked about the vaccine mandate.
Last month, the Navy made it clear that it will pursue discharge for any sailors who refuse vaccination without a pending or approved exemption.
"Commands shall not allow Sailors refusing the vaccine to promote or advance, reenlist, or execute orders with the exception of separation orders," the Navy said in a press release in October.
Shortly thereafter, the Marine Corps followed suit, saying in its vaccination guidance that Marines refusing the Covid-19 vaccine without an exemption would be processed for administrative separation.
"A Marine who has not yet been fully vaccinated is not considered worldwide deployable and shall be assigned or reassigned, locally, to billets which account for health risks to the unvaccinated marine and those working in proximity to the Marine," the guidance said.
"Marines refusing the vaccine shall not reenlist or execute order, with the exception of separation orders."
Vaccination requirements for the military have led to a debate between the Pentagon and the commander of the Oklahoma National Guard over the chain of command in the military and the federal government's authority.
Pentagon officials have said that all National Guard members are subject to military readiness requirements, including vaccines, even when they are not called up under federal authority. But Brig. Gen. Thomas Mancino has argued that he answers to Oklahoma's Republican Gov. Kevin Stitt who ordered him not to enforce the Pentagon's vaccine mandate, The Washington Post reported.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on November 19, 2021, 11:54:54 AM
Continuing with your Gish Gallop, we all see....
No. Let me clarify with the Truth! You are not trying to clarify anything. You are trying to lie, distort, parse, twist, and spew as much BS as possible. And still have not answered the question - any of them! ...which is part of the 'script'.
And the lie you are passing right now about 'definition' of a vaccine is one started by David Martin, a financial analyst and self-help entrepreneur who operates a YouTube channel pushing COVID-19 conspiracy theories. But you already know that. Probably where you got this particular crock of carp.
Neither the CDC nor the FDA stipulate that vaccines must both provide immunity and block transmission of a virus. Which you also already know, and yet choose to spew your lies about it.
You are indulging in your Russian Troll moment.
Seemingly reasonable assumption as even with or without FDA approval, that any medication can be completely effective in treating or preventing any disease with or without undesirable side effects as well.
But as for the refusal to take the vaccine, that's not just here in the states, which would mean that all of the other countries may or may not have received any memo from the states going either way, but herein, there is a massive protest against the use of the vaccines. And even some who took the first shot may have not gone back for the rest of the shots or even booster shots.
Quote from: whoatown on November 20, 2021, 11:05:03 PM
Seemingly reasonable assumption as even with or without FDA approval, that any medication can be completely effective in treating or preventing any disease with or without undesirable side effects as well.
But as for the refusal to take the vaccine, that's not just here in the states, which would mean that all of the other countries may or may not have received any memo from the states going either way, but herein, there is a massive protest against the use of the vaccines. And even some who took the first shot may have not gone back for the rest of the shots or even booster shots.
So now you are changing sides? Reasonable assumption that med can be effective...
Refusal - true, there are Stupid everywhere. I have a niece whose husband just died from covid about 3 weeks ago. Her 19 yr old son has had it 3 times in the last 12 months - his overall health is declining every time. And she had it with him the first time. She still refuses to vaccinate.
Just because there is massive protest does NOT mean they have a clue. And they don't.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on November 21, 2021, 12:13:59 PM
So now you are changing sides? Reasonable assumption that med can be effective...
Refusal - true, there are Stupid everywhere. I have a niece whose husband just died from covid about 3 weeks ago. Her 19 yr old son has had it 3 times in the last 12 months - his overall health is declining every time. And she had it with him the first time. She still refuses to vaccinate.
Just because there is massive protest does NOT mean they have a clue. And they don't.
But just like you stated,
there is still no guarantee.. The FDA labels even state on some bottles that they haven't even evaluated the significance of either treatment or prevention.
Wait...she caught the virus and survived and still refuses to take the vaccine? So she survived without the vaccine. Guess didn't need it after all.
And then there is the Trusted News Initiative. All the major news networks and tech monopolies. Do any of them know what they are talking about or do they read from a script like always?
https://www.ntd.com/texas-covid-19-summit-covid-19-vaccines-are-they-safe-and-effective_703962.html
Doctors speaking about corona virus and vaccines. Are they safe and effective?
Quote from: whoatown on November 21, 2021, 03:36:50 PM
https://www.ntd.com/texas-covid-19-summit-covid-19-vaccines-are-they-safe-and-effective_703962.html
Doctors speaking about corona virus and vaccines. Are they safe and effective?
NTD.com? As in "New Tang Dynasty Television"? NDT, along with its sister site, The Epoch Times, is a virulently anti-China propaganda and conspiracy news site owned by the Falun Gong cult that the Chinese government is attempting violently suppress.
Quote from: whoatown on November 21, 2021, 03:33:14 PM
Wait...she caught the virus and survived and still refuses to take the vaccine? So she survived without the vaccine. Guess didn't need it after all.
And then there is the Trusted News Initiative. All the major news networks and tech monopolies. Do any of them know what they are talking about or do they read from a script like always?
Most do survive. But she was the one that passed it to her kid the first time. So she didn't really mind sending it around. And he most likely passed it to his Dad the third time...little bit hard to say since there is a cluster of ignorance surrounding that situation. That whole thing about get everyone sick then see who is left.
And the boy continues to degrade every time.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on November 21, 2021, 05:20:16 PM
Most do survive. But she was the one that passed it to her kid the first time. So she didn't really mind sending it around. And he most likely passed it to his Dad the third time...little bit hard to say since there is a cluster of ignorance surrounding that situation. That whole thing about get everyone sick then see who is left.
And the boy continues to degrade every time.
I believe my physics teacher said something about gas theory one time. Something about a free floating molecule. So if we were to say that corona virus just happens to be floating around until it finds one or more people's lungs, from that stand point it would be possible that nobody actually spread it to anyone else. That is just one possibility, rather finite I would think. It stands that usually all it takes is for one person to catch it and depending on how quickly or how their body responds to it might be difficult in determining if several people caught it at the same time or some other capacity, but usually it seems to be that one person typically passes it onto somebody else. And by the time somebody realizes that somebody has it, it is usually too late to counter transmission.
Quote from: swake on November 21, 2021, 04:40:39 PM
NTD.com? As in "New Tang Dynasty Television"? NDT, along with its sister site, The Epoch Times, is a virulently anti-China propaganda and conspiracy news site owned by the Falun Gong cult that the Chinese government is attempting violently suppress.
https://www.gotquestions.org/Falun-Gong.html
Falun Gong (also called Falun Dafa) is a blend of Buddhism, Taoism, and Chinese Qigong that focuses heavily on meditation and moral thinking. When it first arose in the early 1990s, Falun Gong was given virtually no attention by Chinese authorities. As the practice became more popular, the Communist state came to view it as a threat. Since then, Falun Gong has become another heavily persecuted spiritual system within China.
The term qigong is somewhat generic, as the basic principles are used by several different Eastern spiritual disciplines. Typical approaches to qigong focus on meditation, breath control, and relaxed motion. These practices have been incorporated into Confucianism, Daoism, and Buddhism. Falun Gong or Falun Dafa is set apart from other forms of qigong by its greater emphasis on morality, rather than mere "life energy."
Some of the benefits of Falun Gong, supposedly, are only accessible for those who have read the books of the practice's founder, Li Hongzhi.
Falun Gong has been the recipient of unusually brutal persecution from the Chinese government. This is partly explained by the more "religious" flavor of Falun Gong compared to other styles of qigong.
Specific motivation for this aggression is unclear. And yet the ruling government likely considers an emphasis on personal action, rather than group loyalty, combined with a focus on morality, to be politically dangerous. Pacifism, in the same way, is often a trait reviled by oppressive governments, since it implies an unwillingness to fight for the government's cause. It could be argued, as well, that the three core concepts of Falun Gong or Falun Dafa (Truthfulness, Compassion, and Forbearance) are detrimental, in practice, to the Communist ideal. Practitioners of Falun Gong in China have been imprisoned, tortured, and even killed.
Quote from: whoatown on November 21, 2021, 05:43:17 PM
So if we were to say that corona virus just happens to be floating around
You could say that but you would be wrong.
https://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/fauci-fully-vaccinated-definition-changing-include-boosters/story?id=81299248
Fauci could change definition of fully vaccinated to include the regimen of boosters.
Quote from: whoatown on November 21, 2021, 10:43:17 PM
https://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/fauci-fully-vaccinated-definition-changing-include-boosters/story?id=81299248
Fauci could change fully vaccinated to include the regimen of boosters.
I hope he does.
Quote from: patric on November 19, 2021, 11:46:02 AM
No. Here is the story before the MAGA enhancements:
Why did CDC change its definition for 'vaccine'? Agency explains move as skeptics lurk
Social media is calling bluff on the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention for modifying its definition of the words "vaccine" and "vaccination" on its website.
Before the change, the definition for "vaccination" read, "the act of introducing a vaccine into the body to produce immunity to a specific disease." Now, the word "immunity" has been switched to "protection."
The term "vaccine" also got a makeover. The CDC's definition changed from "a product that stimulates a person's immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease" to the current "a preparation that is used to stimulate the body's immune response against diseases."
Some people have speculated that the unannounced changes were the CDC's attempt to hide the fact COVID-19 vaccines are not 100% effective at preventing coronavirus infection. U.S. Representative Thomas Massie (R) of Kentucky said in a popular tweet the CDC has "been busy at the Ministry of Truth."
However, a CDC spokesperson told McClatchy News the "slight changes in wording over time ... haven't impacted the overall definition."
The previous definitions could have been "interpreted to mean that vaccines were 100% effective, which has never been the case for any vaccine, so the current definition is more transparent, and also describes the ways in which vaccines can be administered," the spokesperson said.
"It's also important to note that the modifications to the definition of 'vaccine' don't change the fact that vaccines and the act of vaccination has prevented millions of illnesses and saved countless lives," the spokesperson said in an email.
There remains the misconception that COVID-19 vaccines were designed to prevent infections altogether, leading people to believe the vaccines aren't working as they should when they learn about breakthrough infections among the vaccinated.
But the coronavirus vaccines are doing exactly what they were designed to do, which is to prevent severe disease, including the need for hospitalization, and death — even in the presence of more dangerous versions of the virus such as the delta variant.
While data show the coronavirus shots are preventing infections in many outbreak scenarios, the fact breakthrough infections are happening doesn't suggest failure, experts say.
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article254111268.html
https://technofog.substack.com/p/cdc-emails-our-definition-of-vaccine
The changes on the definition of vaccine. The prior CDC Definitions of Vaccine and Vaccination (August 26, 2021):
Vaccine: A
product that stimulates a person's immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease, protecting the person from that disease. Vaccines are usually administered through needle injections, but can also be administered by mouth or sprayed into the nose.
Vaccination: The act of introducing a vaccine into the body to produce
immunity to a specific disease.
The CDC Definitions of Vaccine and Vaccination since September 1, 2021:
Vaccine: A
preparation that is used to stimulate the body's immune response against diseases. Vaccines are usually administered through needle injections, but some can be administered by mouth or sprayed into the nose.
Vaccination: The act of introducing a vaccine into the body to produce
protection from a specific disease.
Instead of immunity it was suggested that it be changed to protection.
The change of the "vaccination" definition was eventually approved on August 31. The next day, on September 1, they approved the change to the "vaccine" definition from discussing immunity to protection
https://twitter.com/RepThomasMassie/status/1435606845926871041
Quote from: Red Arrow on November 21, 2021, 10:43:51 PM
I hope he does.
Would preparation really fit with a booster shot? You already had the preparation on the first shot, but the booster shots are no longer preparations.
Quote from: whoatown on November 21, 2021, 11:13:44 PM
Would preparation really fit with a booster shot? You already had the preparation on the first shot, but the booster shots are no longer preparations.
Really????? Did you pass Jr High School grammar class?
At some point, communication relies on people speaking a common language. You are clearly lacking in those skills.
Quote from: whoatown on November 21, 2021, 11:02:18 PM
The change of the "vaccination" definition was eventually approved on August 31. The next day, on September 1, they approved the change to the "vaccine" definition from discussing immunity to protection
People like you are the reason for changing the definition. If only ONE person in the world catches Covid19 after vaccination, "immunity" changes to "protection". Nevermind that most of the world is "protected" from catching Covid19 by vaccination.
I was really trying to refrain from this but are you really that STUPID?
Quote from: Red Arrow on November 21, 2021, 11:29:37 PM
Really????? Did you pass Jr High School grammar class?
At some point, communication relies on people speaking a common language. You are clearly lacking in those skills.
The vaccine is being referred to as a preparation.
Quote from: Red Arrow on November 21, 2021, 11:56:36 PM
People like you are the reason for changing the definition. If only ONE person in the world catches Covid19 after vaccination, "immunity" changes to "protection". Nevermind that most of the world is "protected" from catching Covid19 by vaccination.
I was really trying to refrain from this but are you really that STUPID?
The line there you highlighted was from the article, but I think they got something backwards. It was vaccination that changed from immunity to protection, but instead they called it that the vaccine.
But if you are vaccinated, it replaces the dependency on the (natural) immunity? But now the vaccine is protecting you? If (natural) immunity was able to protect you, would you actually need the protection of the vaccine?
Quote from: whoatown on November 22, 2021, 09:55:18 AM
The line there you highlighted was from the article, but I think they got something backwards. It was vaccination that changed from immunity to protection, but instead they called it that the vaccine.
But if you are vaccinated, it replaces the dependency on the (natural) immunity? But now the vaccine is protecting you? If (natural) immunity was able to protect you, would you actually need the protection of the vaccine?
All protections are not equal.
Quote from: whoatown on November 22, 2021, 09:55:18 AM
If (natural) immunity was able to protect you, would you actually need the protection of the vaccine?
That's a bet that about 5 million people worldwide have lost in a big way. About 770,000 of those bet losers are formerly in the USA.
Quote from: whoatown on November 22, 2021, 09:55:18 AM
The line there you highlighted was from the article, but I think they got something backwards. It was vaccination that changed from immunity to protection, but instead they called it that the vaccine.
But if you are vaccinated, it replaces the dependency on the (natural) immunity? But now the vaccine is protecting you? If (natural) immunity was able to protect you, would you actually need the protection of the vaccine?
Gish Gallop Moment.
Again. One trick pony with nothing real to contribute. There, Red Arrow, I went that extra step for you. And yes, that person is that Trumpy.
I think you should probably just keep depending on your natural immunity across the board....why use up resources someone else can make good use of.
Quote from: swake on November 22, 2021, 10:28:59 AM
All protections are not equal.
https://www.axios.com/biden-covid-vaccines-hurricane-preparedness-d06a3dbb-fefa-4954-bd52-1d0e70fdfb7d.html
The corona virus vaccine was so good it was supposed to protect me from hurricanes!
Quote from: whoatown on November 22, 2021, 02:55:44 PM
https://www.axios.com/biden-covid-vaccines-hurricane-preparedness-d06a3dbb-fefa-4954-bd52-1d0e70fdfb7d.html
The corona virus vaccine was so good it was supposed to protect me from hurricanes!
Another Russian Troll Moment.
Quote from: whoatown on November 22, 2021, 02:55:44 PM
The corona virus vaccine was so good it was supposed to protect me from hurricanes!
No, that was supposed to be Corona Beer that protects you from hurricanes.
Quote from: Red Arrow on November 22, 2021, 07:04:23 PM
No, that was supposed to be Corona Beer that protects you from hurricanes.
Only when you have the lime.
Quote from: swake on November 22, 2021, 07:32:52 PM
Only when you have the lime.
No, you put the lime in the coconut.. ;D
Quote from: Red Arrow on November 22, 2021, 07:37:29 PM
No, you put the lime in the coconut.. ;D
That song has better medical advice than these anti-vaccers.
Quote from: swake on November 22, 2021, 07:51:40 PM
That song has better medical advice than these anti-vaccers.
Yep!
Quote from: Red Arrow on November 21, 2021, 11:56:36 PM
People like you are the reason for changing the definition. If only ONE person in the world catches Covid19 after vaccination, "immunity" changes to "protection". Nevermind that most of the world is "protected" from catching Covid19 by vaccination.
I was really trying to refrain from this but are you really that STUPID?
Did you happen to notice that my article is talking about the same thing that patric's is? It says the same thing! Maybe you didn't read it.
Quote from: whoatown on November 23, 2021, 11:28:58 AM
Did you happen to notice that my article is talking about the same thing that patric's is? It says the same thing! Maybe you didn't read it.
Did you happen to notice that the article had nothing to do with vaccine protecting you from hurricanes?
And yet, you still continued to lie about it. As we have come to expect....
Or you just looked at the headline and did not even read the article you referenced.
Another Russian Troll Moment.
Quote from: whoatown on November 23, 2021, 11:28:58 AM
Did you happen to notice that my article is talking about the same thing that patric's is? It says the same thing! Maybe you didn't read it.
I read it and came to the same conclusion that Herion did. If there were anything more substantive going on, I would ignore your posts but you do provide some entertainment.
Edit:
I thought I'd better check the definition of substantive. I was correct.
"having a firm basis in reality and therefore important, meaningful, or considerable."
Actually, there are some more relevant conversations going on but your posts qualify for my comment.
Quote from: whoatown on November 22, 2021, 02:55:44 PM
https://www.axios.com/biden-covid-vaccines-hurricane-preparedness-d06a3dbb-fefa-4954-bd52-1d0e70fdfb7d.html
The corona virus vaccine was so good it was supposed to protect me from hurricanes!
Your reading skills are lacking credibility.
Quote from: whoatown on November 23, 2021, 11:28:58 AM
Did you happen to notice that my article is talking about the same thing that patric's is? It says the same thing! Maybe you didn't read it.
Would you please point out your position on this helpful chart?
(https://s3media.247sports.com/Uploads/Assets/365/741/10741365.png?width=600&fit=bounds)
Quote from: swake on November 23, 2021, 09:41:02 PM
Would you please point out your position on this helpful chart?
(https://s3media.247sports.com/Uploads/Assets/365/741/10741365.png?width=600&fit=bounds)
They really should have specified burning jet fuel and steel beams rather than just jet fuel. Jet fuel is just really clean kerosene (like diesel fuel), doesn't melt steel at normal temperatures.
Sorry. I am retired but am still an engineer at heart. ;D
Rest is OK.
Quote from: Red Arrow on November 23, 2021, 09:50:23 PM
They really should have specified burning jet fuel and steel beams rather than just jet fuel. Jet fuel is just really clean kerosene (like diesel fuel), doesn't melt steel at normal temperatures.
Sorry. I am retired but am still an engineer at heart. ;D
Rest is OK.
Where does Elvis sighting fit in? I don't see it on the chart anywhere.
Quote from: whoatown on November 24, 2021, 12:32:30 PM
Where does Elvis sighting fit in? I don't see it on the chart anywhere.
Top right of the lavender color, "Elvis Lives" will have to suffice.
Quote from: Red Arrow on November 23, 2021, 09:50:23 PM
They really should have specified burning jet fuel and steel beams rather than just jet fuel. Jet fuel is just really clean kerosene (like diesel fuel), doesn't melt steel at normal temperatures.
Sorry. I am retired but am still an engineer at heart. ;D
Rest is OK.
Jet fuel said to have a burning range - 800 - 1500 F.
Found this that says softening point of steel around 1,100 F. (Structural steel 50% failed.)
So there is some overlap.
Engineer moment - well sort of;
One thing I have always wondered about for the towers is how much 'chimney effect' was going on in those buildings, especially near stairwells and elevator shafts. And how much wind does it take to raise the temp how high? I know when I blow on coals in the grill, it gets VERY hot in the spot where blowing - with wind speed of maybe a few miles per hour? And if use a hair dryer, it gets close to forge temps. Definitely could make steel red and soft.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on November 24, 2021, 08:15:10 PM
Jet fuel said to have a burning range - 800 - 1500 F.
Found this that says softening point of steel around 1,100 F. (Structural steel 50% failed.)
So there is some overlap.
Engineer moment - well sort of;
One thing I have always wondered about for the towers is how much 'chimney effect' was going on in those buildings, especially near stairwells and elevator shafts. And how much wind does it take to raise the temp how high? I know when I blow on coals in the grill, it gets VERY hot in the spot where blowing - with wind speed of maybe a few miles per hour? And if use a hair dryer, it gets close to forge temps. Definitely could make steel red and soft.
The elevator shafts were in the central core IIRC, and are vented through the roof so when they got ripped open as the plane went through it created a huge place for all the air from the outside to get drawn in at the fire level and get exhausted straight up the shafts and stair wells.
Mix the jet fuel with all the combustible materials already there and you have what I would consider a blast furnace effect.
Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on November 24, 2021, 08:45:01 PM
The elevator shafts were in the central core IIRC, and are vented through the roof so when they got ripped open as the plane went through it created a huge place for all the air from the outside to get drawn in at the fire level and get exhausted straight up the shafts and stair wells.
Mix the jet fuel with all the combustible materials already there and you have what I would consider a blast furnace effect.
No doubt about it, just like when there are firenados. I am just wondering how hot it could get...I think pretty high. And since jet fuel already burns to the point where steel gets soft and loses 50% strength, I think it made those buildings very weak.
Quote from: swake on November 23, 2021, 09:41:02 PM
Would you please point out your position on this helpful chart?
Need 3 more pyramids on top of that one....
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on November 24, 2021, 09:14:29 PM
No doubt about it, just like when there are firenados. I am just wondering how hot it could get...I think pretty high. And since jet fuel already burns to the point where steel gets soft and loses 50% strength, I think it made those buildings very weak.
No question that the burning jet fuel, probably enhanced by the fire draft, softened the steel. It may have melted some but not all of it. My only comment was that jet fuel, not burning, at normal storage temperatures does not melt steel. Think of all the storage tanks that don't melt.
Quote from: Red Arrow on November 24, 2021, 09:45:36 PM
No question that the burning jet fuel, probably enhanced by the fire draft, softened the steel. It may have melted some but not all of it. My only comment was that jet fuel, not burning, at normal storage temperatures does not melt steel. Think of all the storage tanks that don't melt.
Ahhh...subtle details...my 'old guy' moment for the day.
Quote from: TheArtist on November 14, 2021, 09:09:08 AM
So why is this vaccine different than all the dozens of others people the military have to get?
I was in the army and they literally have you walk past a long line of doctors giving you shots. Frankly I don't know what they all were and I don't think anyone cared, we had plenty other things on our mind lol. And there are a lot of countries that if you are going to get deployed to, you have to get shots protecting you from specific disease threats known to be in that country (and lord knows what else you are going to be exposed to in those places, just part of the deal and you know it going in).
Is this where we are headed?
Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis (R) on Thursday proposed reestablishing a World War II-era civilian-military force that he would control.
DeSantis pitched the idea of creating the Florida State Guard, which would be independent of federal control, while speaking about his military budget proposal.
The Guard would consist of 200 volunteer civilians "trained in the best emergency response techniques" that would aid in the event of natural disasters or other state emergencies, according to a press release.
DeSantis said the proposed unit would "not be encumbered by the federal government," adding that this force would give him "the flexibility and the ability needed to respond to events in our state in the most effective way possible."
Florida Democrats pushed back on the proposal, with 2022 Democratic gubernatorial challenger Rep. Charlie Crist (Fla.) calling the proposed unit "handpicked secret police."
DeSantis's proposal comes after Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin urged National Guard members to get vaccinated or face losing their pay.
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/584178-desantis-proposes-civilian-florida-state-guard-military-force-he-would
OKLAHOMA CITY — Oklahoma Attorney General John O'Connor on Thursday filed a federal lawsuit against the Biden administration seeking to halt the mandatory COVID-19 vaccination requirement for federal employees and the Oklahoma National Guard.
The suit was filed in the Western District in Oklahoma City. The state, Gov. Kevin Stitt, O'Connor and 16 members of the Oklahoma Air National Guard are named as plaintiffs.
Last session, the state Legislature gave O'Connor's office $10 million to fight what they claim is federal overreach and authorized the ability to review executive orders.
O'Connor asked the court to for a temporary restraining order or preliminary injunction followed by a permanent injunction, preventing the enforcement of the vaccine mandate.
Additionally, the lawsuit seeks to block the Biden administration from withholding federal funding from the Oklahoma National Guard or its members.
O'Connor's office also requests the court declare the mandate unconstitutional on multiple grounds.
The legal challenge contends that since Congress has not enacted a law requiring vaccinations, allowing Biden to do so on his own would be unconstitutional.
The lawsuit also alleges that the mandate violates the due process right to bodily integrity and the Fourth Amendment right against unconstitutional searches and seizures.
"Biden's COVID-19 vaccine mandate ensures that many Oklahoma National Guard members will simply quit instead of getting a vaccine, a situation that will irreparably harm Oklahomans' safety and security," O'Connor said. "These patriots, along with many federal employees, who serve their country and their state are now at risk of being terminated because they do not wish to take the vaccine."
The action comes after Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin turned down Stitt's request to exempt the Oklahoma National Guard from the mandate.
Austin said all members of the Oklahoma Army and Air National Guard, regardless of duty status, must follow the federal requirements for COVID-19 vaccinations.
"Failure to do so may lead to a prohibition on the member's participation in drills and training conducted under Title 32 and jeopardize the member's status in the National Guard," Austin wrote in a Monday letter to Stitt.
Unless the guard is mobilized by the president, Stitt said he retains authority over all training and governance of the Oklahoma National Guard, including determining if and how training guidelines issued by the president will be implemented.
"I will continue fighting to protect Oklahoma against this alarming pattern of unconstitutional federal overreach coming from the Biden administration," Stitt said.
https://tulsaworld.com/news/oklahoma-ag-files-lawsuit-over-federal-military-vaccination-requirement/article_0b85869c-53bf-11ec-9881-3b59acc6ea3f.html
Worth noting: The suit is asking the court to block the mandate for all federal employees, not just the National Guard.
Top National Guard officer tests positive for Covid
Gen. Dan Hokanson, chief of the National Guard Bureau, tested positive for Covid-19 this week and is now isolating while working remotely, a bureau spokesperson said Friday. "All other members of the National Guard Bureau staff are continuing with their duties under the existing COVID protocols, and all continue to be tested, as required," the spokesperson added in a statement.
Hokanson is the National Guard's highest-ranking officer and a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
The news of Hokanson's positive test comes amid increasing tensions between components of the National Guard and senior Pentagon leadership over the Defense Department's vaccine mandate.
Last month, Oklahoma Gov. Kevin Stitt ordered Brig. Gen. Thomas Mancino, the state's adjutant general, to notify the state's National Guard soldiers and airmen that they would not be required to get their shots.
Pentagon spokesperson John Kirby maintained at the time that "[it] is a lawful order for National Guardsmen to receive the Covid vaccine."
On Tuesday, the Associated Press reported that Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin had decided that National Guard members who refuse vaccination will be barred from federally funded drills and training required to maintain their Guard status.
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/12/03/top-national-guard-officer-tests-positive-for-covid-523722
Quote from: patric on December 03, 2021, 08:29:43 PM
On Tuesday, the Associated Press reported that Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin had decided that National Guard members who refuse vaccination will be barred from federally funded drills and training required to maintain their Guard status.
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/12/03/top-national-guard-officer-tests-positive-for-covid-523722
Gotta love when this hit the point of "fark around and find out". Enjoy getting biatched-slapped by the bureaucracy of the Federal government!! Good times!
Quote from: patric on December 03, 2021, 10:20:54 AM
Is this where we are headed?
Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis (R) on Thursday proposed reestablishing a World War II-era civilian-military force that he would control.
DeSantis pitched the idea of creating the Florida State Guard, which would be independent of federal control, while speaking about his military budget proposal.
The Guard would consist of 200 volunteer civilians "trained in the best emergency response techniques" that would aid in the event of natural disasters or other state emergencies, according to a press release.
DeSantis said the proposed unit would "not be encumbered by the federal government," adding that this force would give him "the flexibility and the ability needed to respond to events in our state in the most effective way possible."
Florida Democrats pushed back on the proposal, with 2022 Democratic gubernatorial challenger Rep. Charlie Crist (Fla.) calling the proposed unit "handpicked secret police."
DeSantis's proposal comes after Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin urged National Guard members to get vaccinated or face losing their pay.
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/584178-desantis-proposes-civilian-florida-state-guard-military-force-he-would
(https://i.imgflip.com/5wpkz0.jpg)
'Gross Disservice': Oklahoma AG Slammed for Idiotic Vaccine Comments
The top law enforcement officer in Oklahoma is facing a wave of criticism after he suggested on Tuesday that science surrounding the COVID-19 vaccines — which have been researched by scientists around the world for almost two years and approved in the U.S. even for children as young as five — remains unclear.
"I think the science isn't really clear on this COVID vaccine," Oklahoma Attorney General John O'Connor said during a press conference about the state's legal battle over COVID vaccine mandates. He stood alongside Gov. Kevin Stitt, who defended the state's role in five lawsuits aimed at blocking federal vaccine requirements.
"I have been vaccinated, and my problem is not with the vaccine, my problem is with the notion of it being mandated," he said, before he went on to accuse federal officials of making employers "do the dirty work of the Biden administration" by requiring employees get the jab.
"Who do you trust for the information?" O'Connor said. "At one point we were told that the natural immunity was 27 times more effective than the vaccine, and yet, when all of these mandates roll out, they don't give any respect to natural immunity."
The Oklahoma Attorney General's Office did not immediately respond to The Daily Beast's request for comment about O'Connor's claims suggesting that "natural immunity" trumped vaccines.
O'Connor's comment on immunity goes against CDC guidance which urges all eligible people—including those previously infected with the virus—to get vaccinated. His suggestion that the science backing vaccines isn't clear also appears to ignore the agency's data, which has involved clinical trials and ongoing real-world evaluation indicating that vaccines "are highly effective against hospitalization and death for a variety of strains" of COVID-19, including the Delta variant, which continues to dominate in the United States.
His skepticism about the science behind vaccines came as the Oklahoma State Department of Health reported nearly 1,000 new COVID cases Tuesday and as nations around the world struggle to contend with the Omicron variant. President Biden's chief medical adviser, Dr. Anthony Fauci, has encouraged Americans to "get boosted" in an effort to provide an added layer of protection against the new strain.
Caroline Swink, a registered nurse, who referred to "the experimental COVID-19 vaccine," and cited "discrimination" against the unvaccinated, also spoke at Stitt's press conference Tuesday.
"Pfizer has asked that for 55 years that the data not be released — what are they trying to hide?" she said.
The comments are a misrepresentation of the FDA's proposal about how it would release roughly 329,000 pages of data and information it used to approve the Pfizer vaccine to a group of professors and scientists who filed suit in September in federal court to expedite access to the documents through the Freedom of Information Act.
In a joint status report last month, Justice Department attorneys said that before the FDA can turn over the documents, it must strike from them "confidential business and trade secret information of Pfizer or BioNTech and personal privacy information of patients who participated in clinical trials."
The FDA has proposed releasing 500 pages per month on a rolling basis, Reuters reported.
Oklahoma State Medical Association's president Dr. Mary Clarke slammed state leaders in the wake of the comments, criticizing their efforts to undermine the science supporting COVID-19 vaccines.
"With respect to the AG, to question the science that we've been working on for two years globally, I think, is misunderstanding the science," Clarke said during a briefing about the virus hours later, according to Tulsa World. "I think, really, to question your science and your medical professionals and say that someone doesn't agree with that—being a nonscience person themselves—I think is a gross disservice to the public."
https://www.thedailybeast.com/oklahoma-attorney-general-john-oconnor-slammed-for-idiotic-covid-vaccine-comments
The party of idiocy.
Quote from: swake on December 08, 2021, 05:30:44 PM
The party of idiocy.
Much more. The party of Treason.
Quote from: swake on December 08, 2021, 05:30:44 PM
The party of idiocy.
TULSA, Okla. — Unvaccinated members of the Oklahoma Air National Guard will not be allowed to serve, even if they are under the command of Governor Kevin Stitt, a new document released by the Secretary of the Air Force Wednesday stated.
The U.S. Air Force released its new COVID-19 guidance on Wednesday which complies with President Joe Biden's vaccine mandate for all servicemen and women. It came with supplemental guidance for air national guard members whose deadline to be vaccinated passed late last week.
In it, the Secretary of the U.S. Air Force withdraws consent for members to be allowed to serve unvaccinated against COVID while they were just on state duty and under the command of the governor of their state.
"IAW 32 U.S.C. 328, the Secretary of the Air Force hereby withdraws consent for members not fully vaccinated to be placed on or to continue on previously issued Title 32 Active Guard and Reserve (AGR) orders," the document states.
The chain of command under Title 32 status makes Oklahoma Governor Kevin Stitt commander in chief of the Oklahoma Air and Army National Guard. Stitt has previously said and is now suing to stop the President's vaccine mandate for national guard members. However, things get further complicated if The Guard will need to be called up for Federal duty under Title 10. Then, Stitt's position wouldn't matter. President Biden would become commander in chief of the unit, and they would be subject to orders from the Pentagon who has stood firm on there being no unvaccinated members of the military.
The Air Force will classify its Air National Guard members into four categories by December 31st, 2021. Anyone not in one of those four classifications (unvaccinated members) could no longer be eligible to serve. The groups of people allowed to continue serving will be: (1) completed or have started a vaccination regimen, (2) have requested or received a medical exemption, (3) have requested or received a Religious Accommodation Request (RAR), and (4) have requested or received an administrative exemption.
"No one lost their job today," Major Kristin Tschetter, public information officer for the Oklahoma National Guard, told FOX23. "But we are still learning about how this could play into future status later on."
Tschetter said with a lawsuit pending in court, and the governor's office still looking at the new guidance, we are all waiting to see how unvaccinated members should move forward with their jobs after the holidays.
"We still have a lot to go through legally and analyze what this means," she said.
The U.S. Army's vaccine mandate is not set to take effect until June 2022, and it is expected that the current legal battle with the Air Force will shape how the Oklahoma Army National Guard facing similar circumstances will operate in the future.
The new guidance went on to state that some unvaccinated members could have to pay back the military for special pay and incentives, and they would not be allowed to train or drill in accordance with Title 10 and Title 32.
Brigadier General Thomas H. Mancino, state adjutant general and commander of the Oklahoma Army and Air National Guard released a statement following the document.
In this statement, Mancino expressed his support for Gov. Stitt's authority under the constitution and Title 32 to govern his forces in Oklahoma, but says, "It is a legal question as to how far that authority extends."
"Anyone exercising their
personal responsibility and deciding not to take the vaccine, must realize that the potential for career ending federal action, baring a favorable court ruling, legislative intervention, or a change in policy is present," Mancino continued.
It is possible, an unvaccinated member could be involuntary reassigned to the individual ready reserve.
"I recognize the authority of the Secretary under 32 U.S.C. 328 to withhold consent allowing unvaccinated members to be placed on Title 32 Active Guard and Reserve (AGR) orders. This is a valid use of his authority under Title 32 and will be respected," Mancino said.
https://www.krmg.com/news/local/unvaccinated-members-oklahoma-air-national-guard-will-not-be-able-serve/DI2ZGJGCSVAP5AXXW7ZJS7N2UE/
Retired US army generals warn of insurrection or civil war in 2024 if rogue military units pledge loyalty to a 'Trumpian' loser
Three retired US army generals warned of an insurrection or even civil war if the results of the 2024 presidential election were not accepted by some in the military.
Former Major Gen. Paul Eaton, former Major Gen. Antonio Taguba, and former Brig. Gen. Steven Anderson made the warnings in an op-ed in The Washington Post on Friday.
They wrote that they were "increasingly concerned" about the 2024 election and the "potential for lethal chaos inside our military."
The generals highlighted the "disturbing number" of veterans and active-duty members of the military that took part in the January 6 attack on the Capitol by Trump supporters – more than 1 in 10 of those charged had a service record.
They outlined a possible situation in which, after the 2024 election, some service members might pledge loyalty to a "Trumpian loser" who refuses to concede defeat and tries to lead a shadow government.
"Under such a scenario, it is not outlandish to say a military breakdown could lead to civil war," they wrote.
Since the last election, the generals warned that even more turmoil and division had emerged in the armed forces.
They pointed to recent resistance within the military towards federal vaccine mandates, such as a refusal to comply led by the commander of the Oklahoma National Guard, Brig. Gen. Thomas Mancino.
Mancino claimed that while the Oklahoma Guard is not federally mobilized, their commander in chief is the Republican governor of the state and not the president.
The generals wrote that they fear if 2024 is a contested election that splits loyalties, there is the "potential for a total breakdown of the chain of command along partisan lines."
"The idea of rogue units organizing among themselves to support the 'rightful' commander in chief cannot be dismissed," they said.
The generals urged that everything must be done to prevent another insurrection, including holding leaders who inspired the last one to be held to account.
They said there was also work to be done by the military, such as reviewing how to deal with illegal orders and undertaking intelligence work to identify and remove potential mutineers.
The military should also work to identify how misinformation spreads in the ranks.
https://www.businessinsider.com/retired-army-generals-insurrection-or-civil-war-2024-wapo-2021-12
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/12/17/eaton-taguba-anderson-generals-military/
Quote from: patric on December 19, 2021, 05:56:37 PM
Retired US army generals warn of insurrection or civil war in 2024 if rogue military units pledge loyalty to a 'Trumpian' loser
Fortunately, we have some time to prepare.
Quote from: Red Arrow on December 19, 2021, 09:32:44 PM
Fortunately, we have some time to prepare.
How is that gonna work? We have been trying to prepare for decades and the backward, right wing slide just keeps on keeping on..
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on December 21, 2021, 05:05:22 PM
How is that gonna work? We have been trying to prepare for decades and the backward, right wing slide just keeps on keeping on..
I think maybe only a decade, singular, that it's been serious.
Quote from: Red Arrow on December 22, 2021, 12:13:51 AM
I think maybe only a decade, singular, that it's been serious.
I and many friends/acquaintances have been VERY active at it since age 15. Mid 60's. Wish it was only 'decade'.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on December 22, 2021, 10:22:53 AM
I and many friends/acquaintances have been VERY active at it since age 15. Mid 60's. Wish it was only 'decade'.
Honestly this has been brewing since April 9th, 1865.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on December 22, 2021, 10:22:53 AM
I and many friends/acquaintances have been VERY active at it since age 15. Mid 60's. Wish it was only 'decade'.
I forgot about the 1968 Democratic National Convention.
Quote from: Red Arrow on December 23, 2021, 01:13:40 AM
I forgot about the 1968 Democratic National Convention.
An interesting comparison. https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/06/01/no-this-isnt-as-bad-as-1968-so-far-294187
Quote from: Red Arrow on December 23, 2021, 01:13:40 AM
I forgot about the 1968 Democratic National Convention.
Before that.
Even before Tet.
Quote from: tulsabug on December 22, 2021, 10:40:27 AM
Honestly this has been brewing since April 9th, 1865.
The Biden administration urged a federal judge on Wednesday to reject Oklahoma's challenge to the COVID-19 vaccination requirement for National Guard members, saying the state didn't even challenge the correct mandate.
"As an initial matter, Plaintiffs fail to challenge the vaccine requirements that apply to the National Guard," the administration said in response to the lawsuit filed Dec. 2 by the state and 16 anonymous members of the Oklahoma National Guard.
The lawsuit challenges an executive order issued by President Joe Biden that requires federal employees to be vaccinated, the Biden administration said Wednesday, and that order doesn't apply to the military.
That alone should prevent the state from getting a preliminary injunction to shield unvaccinated Oklahoma National Guard members from disciplinary measures, the administration said.
Even if the state had challenged the correct mandate, it still would not prevail because federal officials, not state ones, dictate military policy, the administration told Senior U.S. District Judge Stephen Friot, who is hearing the case.
In the response filed Wednesday, the Biden administration said, "Plaintiffs challenge the President's vaccination requirements for federal employees in EO (Executive Order) 14043, issued pursuant to his authority under Title 5.
"Yet the vaccination requirements for members of the National Guard are issued pursuant to Titles 10 and 32 and have required members of the National Guard to be vaccinated against various diseases for decades."
In declarations to the court, anonymous Air National Guard members cite various reasons for not wanting to be vaccinated and say they would suffer irreparable harm if they are forced to leave the Guard.
Biden administration attorneys argued Wednesday that the Guard members aren't allowed to sue anonymously without prior court permission. Also, the administration said, they wouldn't be eligible to file a lawsuit until some action was taken against them and they exhausted all of the military appeals provided.
"Here, that means a plaintiff must seek any applicable exemptions, pursue all appeals, and then if those are denied, must still wait until the military concludes any adverse action, and pursue all available appeals of adverse action," the administration told the judge.
"There is no evidence that any of the individual Plaintiffs has done so."
https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/local/oklahoma-city/2021/12/23/oklahoma-wrong-covid-vaccine-mandate-national-guard-lawsuit-biden-administration-says/8998767002/ https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/2021/12/20/oklahoma-police-officers-cops-covid-top-line-duty-deaths-vaccine-mandate-mask/6453594001/
This stitt needs to stop!
Who writes the checks to the Guard? US of America. NOT Okrahoma!
But I bet this state will continue to elect that stitt next time, too!
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on December 26, 2021, 07:32:11 PM
Who writes the checks to the Guard? US of America. NOT Okrahoma!
Senior U.S. District Judge Stephen P. Friot, a George W. Bush appointee, appeared to have little patience for the arguments advanced by the Sooner State, as he denied Oklahoma's motion for a preliminary injunction to block the mandate.
Friot rejected the notion that mandated vaccines for COVID-19 are unduly burdensome, pointing out that it "is the one–in addition to the nine that already apply to all service members–intended to protect service members from the virus which has, in less than two years,
killed more Americans than have been killed in action in all of the wars the United States has ever fought."
"The COVID vaccination mandate should be understood against the backdrop of other military immunization mandates–which date back as far as General George Washington's mandate that troops in the Continental Army be inoculated against smallpox."
Furthermore, Friot noted, "From day one of the military vaccine mandate, the Guard was included." Including the National Guard was essential as a part of maintaining "a healthy and ready force." The vaccine mandate goes to the heart of federal supervision of the military, wrote Friot, writing, "This, in the midst of a global pandemic, goes to the heart of 'the discipline prescribed by Congress,'" to regulate its military.
https://lawandcrime.com/covid-19-pandemic/judge-denies-challenge-of-vaccine-mandate-for-national-guard-covid-has-killed-more-americans-than-all-of-the-wars-the-united-states-has-ever-fought/
OKLAHOMA CITY - The Oklahoma National Guard said it will continue following the governor's order to not require COVID-19 vaccines for troops, despite a federal judge in Oklahoma City refusing to block a federal mandate for the armed forces.
It was a scathing opinion from Federal District Judge Stephen Friot. Not only finding the state's case against the federal mandate is without merit, Friot noted issues with the way the case was filed and cast doubt on the Oklahoma Guard's leadership at its highest levels.
"It would be inappropriate to weigh-in on ongoing litigation. We continue to follow the (Governor's) order and will continue to do so until a final legal determination is made," a spokeswoman for the Oklahoma National Guard said in an email.
In November, Adj. Gen. Thomas Mancino announced Gov. Kevin Stitt had given order that soldiers and airmen in the Oklahoma National Guard be relieved from the vaccine requirement.
The judge, the father of an active duty airman, noted several times that vaccine requirements for the military are nothing new, writing they "date back as far as General George Washington's mandate that troops in the Continental Army be inoculated against smallpox."
He said the court would be "hard-put" to find it in the public's interest to prohibit the mandate of an FDA approved vaccine he called "remarkably effective."
Friot noted anonymous plaintiffs are rarely allowed and only permitted after approved by the judge, something the state did not seek until Tuesday.
The judge sympathized with the unvaccinated and wrote, "the individual non-compliant Guard members
did not have the benefit of well-informed leadership at the highest level of the Oklahoma Guard."
https://www.newson6.com/story/61cce6e4cb11a10bfe93490f/okla-national-guard-to-continue-following-governors-order-against-vaccine-mandate-despite-loss-in-court
Quote from: tulsabug on December 22, 2021, 10:40:27 AM
Honestly this has been brewing since April 9th, 1865.
Probably even before that. There was a lot of controversy about the disgusting, bigoted, fascist, Indian Removal Act of Andrew Jackson. He was that era's Trump.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on December 30, 2021, 06:14:41 PM
Probably even before that. There was a lot of controversy about the disgusting, bigoted, fascist, Indian Removal Act of Andrew Jackson. He was that era's Trump.
I believe that was before the rise of the current Republican party. So was he a naughty Democrat?
Quote from: Red Arrow on January 02, 2022, 11:32:25 PM
I believe that was before the rise of the current Republican party. So was he a naughty Democrat?
He was originally a Democrat-Republican which was more commonly known as Jeffersonian Republicans which then splintered into the Democratic Party and the Whigs which got absorbed by the Republican Party, and, well, let's just say it's complicated. Jackson was a bit of a dick no matter what party he was hitched to.
From the Tulsa World:
With its hunting and fishing compact with the state of Oklahoma set to expire on Friday, the Choctaw Nation is asserting its treaty rights to allow its citizens to hunt and fish within its reservation boundaries.
At a special meeting Thursday morning in Tuskahoma, the Choctaw Nation's Tribal Council voted unanimously to amend the tribe's fish, game and wildlife code to allow Choctaw citizens to use their tribal identification cards in lieu of state-issued hunting or fishing licenses within the Choctaw Nation's reservation.
Check out our latest digital-only offer and subscribe now
Along with the Cherokee Nation, the Choctaw Nation signed a hunting and fishing license compact with the state in 2016. Under its terms, each tribe bought licenses in bulk at a discounted rate that were then distributed to their citizens for free.
According to figures published by the Inter-Tribal Council of the Five Civilized Tribes, the Cherokee Nation's compact generated $32 million for the state, while the Choctaw Nation's compact generated $6 million.
However, the two tribes and the state were not able to agree on renewal terms, prompting Thursday's vote. Principal Chief Gary Batton signed the bill Thursday, and the new measure went into effect at 12:01 a.m. Saturday.
"We've always had a good relationship with the state with respect to hunting and fishing, but we're exercising our God-given right as Choctaw people," Tribal Council Speaker Thomas Williston said. "I feel it is a sad state of affairs nowadays that we have had to go to extremes such as this."
As approved, the measure only applies to Choctaw Nation citizens who hunt or fish within the reservation boundaries, which covers almost 11,000 square miles in southeastern Oklahoma. Those citizens will be required to complete a hunter safety course and register any kills via an online portal before taking the animals to a processor or taxidermist.
Bag limits will still apply under the terms of the tribe's legal code, and federal guidelines will still be in place for duck stamps.
Additionally, hunting and fishing are still prohibited on private property without the owner's permission. Nontribal citizens will still be required to have a valid state-issued license to hunt or fish within the reservation.
Choctaw Nation officials noted during the meeting that the tribe has a positive working relationship with area game wardens. However, Batton said the tribe is prepared to defend any Choctaw Nation citizen facing attempted prosecution through the state court system for hunting or fishing on the reservation without a state-issued license.
"We will use our tribal lawyers to defend that, because I think they (tribal citizens) should have that right," the chief said.
The Choctaw Nation has about 10,000 enrolled citizens. Its reservation includes all of Atoka, Choctaw, Haskell, Latimer, LeFlore, McCurtain, Pittsburg and Pushmataha counties, plus portions of Bryan, Coal, Hughes, Johnston and Pontotoc counties.
A spokeswoman for Gov. Kevin Stitt declined to comment Thursday afternoon.
Cherokee Nation Principal Chief Chuck Hoskin Jr. signed an executive order on Dec. 21 with terms similar to those approved Thursday morning by the Choctaw Nation Tribal Council.
So now the state not only doesn't get the $38m they were getting from the Cherokee and Choctaw Nations for buying hunting licenses in bulk, but we're firing up another jurisdictional rights fight between the state and the reservations. Good job Stittler. Idiot.
Quote from: Red Arrow on January 02, 2022, 11:32:25 PM
I believe that was before the rise of the current Republican party. So was he a naughty Democrat?
Doesn't matter what he called himself - he was a disgusting maggot. Just a continuing practitioner and enabler of genocide and extermination. What this country had done for hundreds of years and continued to do for many more after him!
Until finally in 1978, we as a nation made one tiny little step toward ending the abomination. Indian Child Welfare Act (ICWA), October 24, 1978. When you were in your 20's and could easily, possibly have had kids. Imagine how you would feel if someone just came over and said they don't think you should have them, so we will just take them. Or if they had shown up at your parents house to take you - it was happening regularly when you were that age! Over 1/3 of Native children taken from their families!
I guess that was a big step from when only about 70-80 years before they were still offering bounties on Native scalps....
Oh, wait...I almost forgot! We have NOT stopped ripping kids away from their parents! Trump institutionalized it thousands of times during his time. But hey, they are just "murderers and rapists" according to Trump and his Minions....they probably deserve it! At least that is the rationalization they use And they are called Republicans. Not really, but they stole the name and hijacked the party....
Labels aren't the end all, be all. It's what they do when they get in - like Trump. Called himself a Republican but is not fit to lick the bottoms of the shoes of Republicans like John McCain, Mitt Romney, Gerald Ford, Dwight Eisenhower, et al. In much the same manner as some Dems, like David Hall (OK Gov), David Walters, et al. are unfit.
And then we get to another 'special class' like Failin' and this current piece of Stitt.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on January 03, 2022, 04:22:55 PM
Doesn't matter what he called himself - he was a disgusting maggot. Just a continuing practitioner and enabler of genocide and extermination. What this country had done for hundreds of years and continued to do for many more after him!
We know that now but at the time in white society he was a hero. Maybe in time our present leaders will be evaluated in a more objective manner. (Yes, Jackson was a maggot.)
QuoteUntil finally in 1978, we as a nation made one tiny little step toward ending the abomination. Indian Child Welfare Act (ICWA), October 24, 1978. When you were in your 20's and could easily, possibly have had kids. Imagine how you would feel if someone just came over and said they don't think you should have them, so we will just take them. Or if they had shown up at your parents house to take you - it was happening regularly when you were that age! Over 1/3 of Native children taken from their families!
Integrating/introducing Native Americans into "white" society to allow them to succeed off the reservation was probably a reasonable goal. The way it was done was ABSOLUTELY wrong. Trying to eliminate Native American culture was also ABSOLUTELY wrong. I never had kids so I cannot imagine the emotions involved. Growing up "back east" we learned of the forced relocation of the Native Americans but didn't learn many of the details. Kind of like the Tulsa 1921 Massacre. Going on vacation from PA to FL, I remember getting some Cherokee and Seminole tourist trinkets. I didn't connect the relocation until after I lived here a few years. I do understand the authority of the government. Your are probably old enough to remember the draft. My draft lottery number was 38.
QuoteI guess that was a big step from when only about 70-80 years before they were still offering bounties on Native scalps....
Not much though. I believe I read that scalping was originally done by either the British and/or French in the Northeast long before it was practiced out this way. Probably more the British but I don't remember the details of the "French-Indian" wars. High School was a LONG time ago.
QuoteOh, wait...I almost forgot! We have NOT stopped ripping kids away from their parents! Trump institutionalized it thousands of times during his time. But hey, they are just "murderers and rapists" according to Trump and his Minions....they probably deserve it! At least that is the rationalization they use And they are called Republicans. Not really, but they stole the name and hijacked the party....
I have stated many times that I am not a Trumpster. Thank you for acknowledging that the Republican name and party have been hijacked. I remain a member to try to un-hijack the party. I don't have any high hopes like the ant and the rubber tree plant or the ram and the dam. https://www.songlyrics.com/doris-day/high-hopes-rubber-tree-plant-lyrics/
QuoteLabels aren't the end all, be all. It's what they do when they get in - like Trump. Called himself a Republican but is not fit to lick the bottoms of the shoes of Republicans like John McCain, Mitt Romney, Gerald Ford, Dwight Eisenhower, et al. In much the same manner as some Dems, like David Hall (OK Gov), David Walters, et al. are unfit.
Yep
QuoteAnd then we get to another 'special class' like Failin' and this current piece of Stitt.
Also Yep.
Quote from: tulsabug on January 03, 2022, 08:13:22 AM
He was originally a Democrat-Republican which was more commonly known as Jeffersonian Republicans which then splintered into the Democratic Party and the Whigs which got absorbed by the Republican Party, and, well, let's just say it's complicated. Jackson was a bit of a dick no matter what party he was hitched to.
I kinda remember from history class there were some name changes but as we look more objectively, Jackson was not a nice person. As were many of his era.
I'll step out on a limb here...
What Anglo-whites did to Native Americans and a lot of other races and ethnic groups, not just the African-Americans (I hope that's the Politically Correct term) was wrong. No question about it. I do wonder though what this country would be had we treated minorities with the respect we now know they deserved. I am part "Eastern" European. My grandparents and father didn't have exactly an easy ride into American society. I even ran into it in Navy schools in the early 70s but nowhere as much as others.
Probably a topic for a whole 'nother thread.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on January 03, 2022, 04:22:55 PM
Labels aren't the end all, be all. It's what they do when they get in - like Trump. Called himself a Republican but is not fit to lick the bottoms of the shoes of Republicans like John McCain, Mitt Romney, Gerald Ford, Dwight Eisenhower, et al.
It's sad when someone can make a douchecanoe like Mitt Romney look good. He might generally be a pleasant person on the surface but talk about a wolf in sheep's clothing. Yes - that's a whole other topic but the high points of the Republican party now would have been the worst points of them in the past.
Quote from: Red Arrow on January 05, 2022, 12:59:18 AM
We know that now but at the time in white society he was a hero. Maybe in time our present leaders will be evaluated in a more objective manner. (Yes, Jackson was a maggot.)
Integrating/introducing Native Americans into "white" society to allow them to succeed off the reservation was probably a reasonable goal. The way it was done was ABSOLUTELY wrong. Trying to eliminate Native American culture was also ABSOLUTELY wrong. I never had kids so I cannot imagine the emotions involved. Growing up "back east" we learned of the forced relocation of the Native Americans but didn't learn many of the details. Kind of like the Tulsa 1921 Massacre. Going on vacation from PA to FL, I remember getting some Cherokee and Seminole tourist trinkets. I didn't connect the relocation until after I lived here a few years. I do understand the authority of the government. Your are probably old enough to remember the draft. My draft lottery number was 38.
Not much though. I believe I read that scalping was originally done by either the British and/or French in the Northeast long before it was practiced out this way. Probably more the British but I don't remember the details of the "French-Indian" wars. High School was a LONG time ago.
I have stated many times that I am not a Trumpster. Thank you for acknowledging that the Republican name and party have been hijacked. I remain a member to try to un-hijack the party. I don't have any high hopes like the ant and the rubber tree plant or the ram and the dam. https://www.songlyrics.com/doris-day/high-hopes-rubber-tree-plant-lyrics/
Yep
Also Yep.
That whole post was not directed at you, or directly for you - just used your note as the "marker" to put it for everyone to see.
There were a lot of white folks against Jackson at the time, just as there are a lot of rational people today against the Trumpification (Nazification) of America! Because that literally IS what is going on...returning to the old ways.
As for Republicanism - I have been back and forth between the two for just about forever. Gerald Ford was still the best President we have had since Eisenhower and FDR. I am an extreme Moderate - that is fiscally conservative, and socially liberal. Everyone should have an equal shot at the brass ring - something we have NEVER had in this country and still do NOT have! Not likely to have it in my lifetime at the rate we are going. But I have been thinking about changing parties, and getting active...kind of a 'mole' so to speak, just so can vote to try to help de-Nazify today's Republican party!
The most likely icon used by the hijackers is the Pledge of Allegiance, where they gush endlessly about "one nation under God..." Well, that means absolutely nothing at all, since they completely ignore and actively work against the last, and most important words - "with liberty and justice for all."
A lot of things have been known for hundreds of years about the evils we have perpetrated on the world. And most of it has been rationalized and justified by quoting the Bible by the liars who claim to be the followers of Jesus! While ignoring pretty much EVERY single thing he said (it's in the red letters of the New Testament, folks! NONE of it in the Old Testament!)
Reservation system - just another concentration camp idea. We had lots of experience at it by the time we used it in WWII against the Japanese. And here is where Hitler learned about its effectiveness and learned how it's done.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on January 05, 2022, 03:10:45 PM
That whole post was not directed at you, or directly for you - ...
I didn't really think it was but it was still worth continuing the discussion.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on January 05, 2022, 03:10:45 PM
The most likely icon used by the hijackers is the Pledge of Allegiance, where they gush endlessly about "one nation under God..."
Several places on the internet indicate that the phrase "under God" wasn't added until 1954.
Quote from: Red Arrow on January 05, 2022, 06:40:54 PM
I didn't really think it was but it was still worth continuing the discussion.
Absolutely! That was my intent.
Quote from: Red Arrow on January 05, 2022, 07:15:38 PM
Several places on the internet indicate that the phrase "under God" wasn't added until 1954.
It came very late. I learned the previous version and it was actually a few years - into early 60's - before we started saying it regularly. Adoption was not universal or instantaneous.
Unlike polio shots - we got those early fast! And a lot! Between 1956 and 1963, I bet I got 6 or 7 shots and at least 3 sugar cubes! Sugar cubes were better! When they gave shots then, they loaded up a LARGE metal and glass syringe, lined up all the kids in each grade and started hitting them one after the other. Same needle. Until empty, then picked up the next one the nurse had filled, gave her the empty and started over again while she refilled the first one.
The one event that put me 'off' shots was when the Dr tossed it into my arm and it stuck in the bone! That took all the fun out of it!
But we then got to say outside after dark, so we were VERY happy to get that!!
Quote from: tulsabug on January 05, 2022, 09:08:15 AM
It's sad when someone can make a douchecanoe like Mitt Romney look good. He might generally be a pleasant person on the surface but talk about a wolf in sheep's clothing. Yes - that's a whole other topic but the high points of the Republican party now would have been the worst points of them in the past.
Trump makes any vile disgusting thing look good! Old phrase I learned from farmer family when there was more on site animal processing and there was a truck called the 'gut wagon' came around to take all the stuff you didn't wanna keep for food or feed. Trump fits that phrase exactly!
"He is enough to gag a maggot off a gut wagon!"
Just to be crystal clear - that is not a compliment....
Used to be a place on highway 169, north of Nowata on east side of road. Kinda looked like a farm silo type facility, small office, some good sized storage tanks. Place for trucks to drive into/under the tank. Called National By-Products. What the family told me was they were a pretty good size rendering company - that was a collection point where they would gather up stuff to take to facilities in KS and IA. It got torn down many years ago, but I remember how wonderful the aroma was when driving in the area! Kinda reminded me of Hamtramck, MI., If anyone of you have been there, you know what I am talking about.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on January 05, 2022, 07:58:41 PM
It came very late. I learned the previous version and it was actually a few years - into early 60's - before we started saying it regularly. Adoption was not universal or instantaneous.
We said both the Lord's Prayer and the Pledge in elementary school. I don't remember if "under god" was part of the pledge in early elementary school. Eventually the prayer was dropped but I don't remember when. This was suburban Philly, PA public school.
QuoteUnlike polio shots - we got those early fast! And a lot! Between 1956 and 1963, I bet I got 6 or 7 shots and at least 3 sugar cubes!...
I know I had the shots but not the sugar cubes. My younger sister got the sugar cubes.
QuoteBut we then got to say outside after dark, so we were VERY happy to get that!!
We had to come home when the street lights came on but didn't necessarily have to go inside. We could be at our yard or the kids' up the street yard.
Quote from: Red Arrow on January 05, 2022, 08:19:57 PM
We said both the Lord's Prayer and the Pledge in elementary school. I don't remember if "under god" was part of the pledge in early elementary school. Eventually the prayer was dropped but I don't remember when. This was suburban Philly, PA public school.
I know I had the shots but not the sugar cubes. My younger sister got the sugar cubes.
We had to come home when the street lights came on but didn't necessarily have to go inside. We could be at our yard or the kids' up the street yard.
We did the Lord's Prayer too. Went to 3 different schools for kinder, 1st, and second. Each one had a different Lord's Prayer, and each was different from the one we said in Church every week! Strangely confusing for 6 year olds...
Sugar cubes ruled!!
We had to come in basically when the first person was bitten by a mosquito - usually sometime a while before dark. Some adult or older kid would somehow ALWAYS know! And then the entire neighborhood 'scattered' to get inside. After dark thirty we could usually come back out for a while, but sometimes that didn't work out either!
After vaccines, we could stay out no matter how many mosquito bites we got! It was transcendental in it's magnificence!!
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on January 06, 2022, 01:22:41 PM
We had to come in basically when the first person was bitten by a mosquito - usually sometime a while before dark.
We used to chase the DDT truck.
Not so smart in retrospect.
Quote from: Red Arrow on January 06, 2022, 05:09:46 PM
We used to chase the DDT truck.
Not so smart in retrospect.
We would too! Usually later at night, though. There was a fog on the street that kinda looked like real fog.
DDT was safe, though! I have seen the propaganda films where people would drink the stuff to show how safe it was!
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on January 06, 2022, 07:07:07 PM
We would too! Usually later at night, though. There was a fog on the street that kinda looked like real fog.
DDT was safe, though! I have seen the propaganda films where people would drink the stuff to show how safe it was!
I guess we are bordering on thread drift but Stitt is a Trump supporter and we are talking about what used to make America Great. ;D
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on January 06, 2022, 07:07:07 PM
We would too! Usually later at night, though. There was a fog on the street that kinda looked like real fog.
DDT was safe, though! I have seen the propaganda films where people would drink the stuff to show how safe it was!
Might have been safe for people. Not so much for bird eggs, especially for Bald Eagles. We almost wiped them out. Saving people is good but we need to be more careful of other plants and animals.
Quote from: Red Arrow on January 06, 2022, 11:40:34 PM
Might have been safe for people. Not so much for bird eggs, especially for Bald Eagles. We almost wiped them out. Saving people is good but we need to be more careful of other plants and animals.
Wait a minute....what's that all about??? You starting to sound like me! (That's gotta hurt...lol.)
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on January 07, 2022, 11:02:34 AM
Wait a minute....what's that all about??? You starting to sound like me! (That's gotta hurt...lol.)
2 Aspirin
Right up there with out piece of Stitt is Ron DeSantis of Florida.
Is there anyone on this planet that believes anything he says?? Anyone with a brain....
Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis asked if people ever sought testing to see if they were sick before the coronavirus pandemic: 'Think about it'.
Ya mean like TB tests? Colonoscopies. Blood sugar screens at annual Dr visits. Mammograms.
Preventative medicine of all kinds, by smart people who don't vote for dipsticks like him.
https://news.yahoo.com/florida-gov-ron-desantis-asked-182329125.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on January 08, 2022, 03:34:13 PM
Right up there with out piece of Stitt is Ron DeSantis of Florida.
Is there anyone on this planet that believes anything he says?? Anyone with a brain....
Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis asked if people ever sought testing to see if they were sick before the coronavirus pandemic: 'Think about it'.
Ya mean like TB tests? Colonoscopies. Blood sugar screens at annual Dr visits. Mammograms.
Preventative medicine of all kinds, by smart people who don't vote for dipsticks like him.
People leaving the Republican party in droves because of candidates like Stitt, DeSantis..... ensure that they will continue to be re-elected since any other Republicans have no chance to win a Primary Election. There must be a Republican equivalent of Yellow Dog Democrats,
Quote from: Red Arrow on January 08, 2022, 10:11:12 PM
People leaving the Republican party in droves because of candidates like Stitt, DeSantis..... ensure that they will continue to be re-elected since any other Republicans have no chance to win a Primary Election. There must be a Republican equivalent of Yellow Dog Democrats,
Yeah...they are called Democrats.
There is plenty of room for pretty much everyone, from extreme moderate (like me) to extreme radical. Even Joe Manchin. None of which is very coherent or organized.
Remember the Will Rogers saying? " "I belong to no organized party; I am a Democrat,"
No better place that I can easily find for this....just got one of the 8-10 Medicare scam calls coming today.
Medicare Scam Call DuJour...
Scammer; This is <insert fake name here> calling from Medicare Services about your new card....
Me; Why would I need a Medicare card? I am only 34 years old.
Scammer; You don't have a Medicare card? You don't need to lie about it....!
Me; Laughing. Still. After 10 minutes or so....
They would make such good Republicans! If they weren't in India.
And before someone gets their panties in a wad about me commenting on India, I have both friends and relatives from India - Pune, Mumbai, and Ganj McCleod areas. All of whom are great people. They are NOT scammers and would not make good Republicans!
.
There must be a Republican equivalent of Yellow Dog Democrats,
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on January 11, 2022, 10:18:31 AM
Yeah...they are called Democrats.
I think you and I have a different interpretation of the term Yellow Dog Democrat. I was looking for a term to describe Republicans that would never vote for any Democrat. Maybe call them Yellow Dog Republicans since the party affiliation seems to have flipped.
From Wiki:
Yellow Dog Democrats was a political term applied to voters in the Southern United States who voted solely for candidates who represented the Democratic Party. The term originated in the late 19th century. These voters would allegedly "vote for a yellow dog before they would vote for any Republican".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_dog_Democrat
Quote from: Red Arrow on January 11, 2022, 11:39:28 AM
There must be a Republican equivalent of Yellow Dog Democrats,
I think you and I have a different interpretation of the term Yellow Dog Democrat. I was looking for a term to describe Republicans that would never vote for any Democrat. Maybe call them Yellow Dog Republicans since the party affiliation seems to have flipped.
From Wiki:
Yellow Dog Democrats was a political term applied to voters in the Southern United States who voted solely for candidates who represented the Democratic Party. The term originated in the late 19th century. These voters would allegedly "vote for a yellow dog before they would vote for any Republican".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_dog_Democrat
Same definition. I was just trying to warp it into something else - didn't work.
I guess the actual term for them would be idiot. Or fascist.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on January 11, 2022, 12:28:22 PM
I guess the actual term for them would be idiot. Or fascist.
Idiot is not party specific enough. There are plenty of idiots regardless of party affiliation.
I think fascist is a bit extreme. It's kind of like labeling Democrats as communists.
Quote from: Red Arrow on January 11, 2022, 01:24:25 PM
Idiot is not party specific enough. There are plenty of idiots regardless of party affiliation.
I think fascist is a bit extreme. It's kind of like labeling Democrats as communists.
Is it though? I mean, they're really really really knocking on that door. Plus, labeling the opposing political party communist is pretty much a fascist go-to not to mention the strange affinity for khaki pants. But - if you like - we could just refer to them as Y'all Qaeda.
Quote from: Red Arrow on January 11, 2022, 01:24:25 PM
Idiot is not party specific enough. There are plenty of idiots regardless of party affiliation.
I think fascist is a bit extreme. It's kind of like labeling Democrats as communists.
I am talking about the Hijacked Republican Party. And they very much ARE fascists!
NOT real Republicans like mentioned previously. Unfortunately there are just too few of them left to really qualify. At least too few with cojones big enough to count.
Quote from: tulsabug on January 11, 2022, 04:00:49 PM
Is it though? I mean, they're really really really knocking on that door. Plus, labeling the opposing political party communist is pretty much a fascist go-to not to mention the strange affinity for khaki pants. But - if you like - we could just refer to them as Y'all Qaeda.
This may better fit the bill:
https://www.justsecurity.org/72339/qanon-is-a-nazi-cult-rebranded/
Quote from: patric on January 12, 2022, 07:18:39 PM
This may better fit the bill:
https://www.justsecurity.org/72339/qanon-is-a-nazi-cult-rebranded/
I think you're reich. I mean right.
Quote from: tulsabug on January 13, 2022, 06:46:56 AM
I think you're reich. I mean right.
Let the prison guards substitute teach in schools, as long as they dont have to wear masks
/s
https://nondoc.com/2022/01/18/stitt-letting-state-employees-sub/
Quote from: patric on January 19, 2022, 01:06:55 PM
Let the prison guards substitute teach in schools, as long as they dont have to wear masks
/s
https://nondoc.com/2022/01/18/stitt-letting-state-employees-sub/
They would need a 4-6 week FBI background check. So maybe?
.
"Well the concern is misplaced, because if you look at the statistics, African American voters are voting in just as high a percentage as Americans," -- Moscow Mitch McConnell.
This IS the biggest problem in this country. They used to think Black people (and Native Americans, and Chinese) were not human, but now they just think they are not Americans! I guess that is progress...??
https://www.yahoo.com/news/mitch-mcconnell-says-black-people-141822060.html
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on January 20, 2022, 01:17:32 PM
.
"Well the concern is misplaced, because if you look at the statistics, African American voters are voting in just as high a percentage as Americans," -- Moscow Mitch McConnell.
This IS the biggest problem in this country. They used to think Black people (and Native Americans, and Chinese) were not human, but now they just think they are not Americans! I guess that is progress...??
https://www.yahoo.com/news/mitch-mcconnell-says-black-people-141822060.html
Maybe the Dems should pull a page from the Republican playbook and instead call him Mitch McCommunism since his wife was born in the PRC. It's a logical conclusion by their rules.
Quote from: tulsabug on January 20, 2022, 06:43:34 PM
Maybe the Dems should pull a page from the Republican playbook and instead call him Mitch McCommunism since his wife was born in the PRC. It's a logical conclusion by their rules.
He is already Moscow Mitch. I guess he could have two names since he is completely two faced.
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on January 21, 2022, 08:25:24 PM
He is already Moscow Mitch. I guess he could have two names since he is completely two faced.
True dat. I'd just like the Communist tag to be stuck to the Republicans better - Moscow Mitch has a nice ring to it but it doesn't really drive the point home as well as I think it needs to. Now we might be able to get Bolshevik Boebert to start trending....
Quote from: tulsabug on January 22, 2022, 07:51:50 AM
True dat. I'd just like the Communist tag to be stuck to the Republicans better - Moscow Mitch has a nice ring to it but it doesn't really drive the point home as well as I think it needs to. Now we might be able to get Bolshevik Boebert to start trending....
Lol...might work!
Bolshebert?
The real thing about any extremist ideology is that it really isn't a straight line. It is a circle. Going far right or far left, one ends up meeting at the far side of the circle! Both are extremist BS positions! Today's fascists, like the Trumpty-Dumpty Clown Show, are the exact same as the Putin Russian Communists. Not symbolic of a true conservative or liberal position, just adherents and advocates of tin-horn dictatorship regimes that are toxic to everyone except the people raking in the $Billions from their position of power.
(https://scontent.ftul1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/p526x296/272216444_5395896383753677_6451326997868860895_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=82XCMAY9CjsAX91Ac2R&_nc_ht=scontent.ftul1-1.fna&oh=00_AT--Lu8oTN8SjNHGQ26QzFf-4SojlK-t_zt0TKKNvZGZMg&oe=6201CA8F)
Quote from: Tulsa Zephyr on February 03, 2022, 11:18:25 AM
https://scontent.ftul1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/p526x296/272216444_5395896383753677_6451326997868860895_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=82XCMAY9CjsAX91Ac2R&_nc_ht=scontent.ftul1-1.fna&oh=00_AT--Lu8oTN8SjNHGQ26QzFf-4SojlK-t_zt0TKKNvZGZMg&oe=6201CA8F
OKLAHOMA CITY — Opponents of Gov. Kevin Stitt launched a high-profile salvo against the sitting governor, spending thousands to air an attack ad on television screens across Oklahoma during Sunday's Super Bowl game.
The 30-second commercial poked at Stitt's 2019 State of the State address, where he outlined his vision to make Oklahoma a Top 10 state.
"Kevin Stitt, Top 10 talk, but not Top 10 results," according to the commercial.
The group noted that Oklahoma is in fact in the bottom 10 in key categories. In September 2021, Oklahoma ranked 49th in education and 43rd in public safety, and had a higher rate of violent crime than New York and California, according to the commercial.
A political action committee, the Oklahoma Project, has already raised $245,000, according to campaign filings. The group aims to support legislation and candidates that will improve the lives of all Oklahomans. In December, the group said it planned to spend $500,000 on TV, radio and digital advertisements ahead of Stitt's bid for re-election later this year.
The Oklahoma Project paid the Oklahoma City NBC affiliate $50,000 to air the 30-second Super Bowl commercial during halftime, according to disclosures filed with the Federal Communications Commission. It also paid the Ada NBC affiliate $8,500 to air it.
The commercial also aired right after the game in NBC's Tulsa market, but FCC filings as of Monday afternoon did not show how much the group spent to air it.
Sunday's Super Bowl commercial marked the third TV ad run by the group over the past two months.
Donelle Harder, a spokeswoman for Stitt's campaign, said that he ran for governor in 2018 to "end politics as usual and to lead a turnaround that is well underway with record low unemployment, the largest state savings in a century and record levels of state investment in education all while cutting taxes for every single Oklahoman."
In a statement, the Oklahoma Project said it is committed to holding Stitt accountable for his failures. Under Stitt's leadership, Oklahoma ranks close to last in education, health care and public safety, the group said.
"We think it is important to get these facts out to voters all across our state," the group said.
https://youtu.be/Kxqu48VrptI
Quote from: patric on February 17, 2022, 01:15:17 PM
OKLAHOMA CITY — Opponents of Gov. Kevin Stitt launched a high-profile salvo against the sitting governor, spending thousands to air an attack ad on television screens across Oklahoma during Sunday's Super Bowl game.
The 30-second commercial poked at Stitt's 2019 State of the State address, where he outlined his vision to make Oklahoma a Top 10 state.
"Kevin Stitt, Top 10 talk, but not Top 10 results," according to the commercial.
The group noted that Oklahoma is in fact in the bottom 10 in key categories. In September 2021, Oklahoma ranked 49th in education and 43rd in public safety, and had a higher rate of violent crime than New York and California, according to the commercial.
A political action committee, the Oklahoma Project, has already raised $245,000, according to campaign filings. The group aims to support legislation and candidates that will improve the lives of all Oklahomans. In December, the group said it planned to spend $500,000 on TV, radio and digital advertisements ahead of Stitt's bid for re-election later this year.
The Oklahoma Project paid the Oklahoma City NBC affiliate $50,000 to air the 30-second Super Bowl commercial during halftime, according to disclosures filed with the Federal Communications Commission. It also paid the Ada NBC affiliate $8,500 to air it.
The commercial also aired right after the game in NBC's Tulsa market, but FCC filings as of Monday afternoon did not show how much the group spent to air it.
Sunday's Super Bowl commercial marked the third TV ad run by the group over the past two months.
Donelle Harder, a spokeswoman for Stitt's campaign, said that he ran for governor in 2018 to "end politics as usual and to lead a turnaround that is well underway with record low unemployment, the largest state savings in a century and record levels of state investment in education all while cutting taxes for every single Oklahoman."
In a statement, the Oklahoma Project said it is committed to holding Stitt accountable for his failures. Under Stitt's leadership, Oklahoma ranks close to last in education, health care and public safety, the group said.
"We think it is important to get these facts out to voters all across our state," the group said.
https://youtu.be/Kxqu48VrptI
Same as when Mary Failin' was in that office. Remember when Brad Henry was around and we actually made progress - in spite of the Republicontin Obstructionism of that time, too!??
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on February 18, 2022, 12:44:01 PM
Same as when Mary Failin' was in that office. Remember when Brad Henry was around and we actually made progress - in spite of the Republicontin Obstructionism of that time, too!??
Oklahoma Gov. Kevin Stitt (R) on Tuesday signed into law a bill that makes providing an abortion a felony.
Driving the news: The legislation bans all abortions unless they're necessary to save a pregnant person's life. A person found guilty of providing an abortion would face up to 10 years in prison and a fine up to $100,000.
Oklahoma's S.B. 612 has no exceptions for rape or incest and is set to go into effect this summer.
The person receiving the abortion would not be criminally liable.
Catch up fast: The bill's passage last week was unexpected, as the Oklahoma state House approved it a year after it was introduced and cleared by the state
Senate.
Be smart: The bill's signature comes as state lawmakers are considering another near-total abortion ban modeled after Texas' law barring the procedure after six weeks of pregnancy.
That bill, H.B. 4327, would incentivize private citizens to sue anyone suspected of helping a person get an abortion for a reward of at least $10,000.
If it is signed into law, the bill would go into effect immediately.
What they're saying: "I promised Oklahomans that I would sign every pro-life bill that hit my desk, and that's what we're doing here today," Stitt said in
an event Tuesday morning, joined by several anti-abortion groups.
"We want Oklahoma to be the most pro-life state in the country. We want to outlaw abortion in the state of Oklahoma."
Stitt acknowledged the likely legal challenges ahead. Oklahoma Attorney General John O'Connor said that he looks forward to "defending this law."
"Oklahoma's total abortion ban is blatantly unconstitutional and will wreak havoc on the lives of people seeking abortion care within and outside the state," said Nancy Northup, president and CEO of the Center for Reproductive Rights, an abortion rights group.
Between the lines: Oklahoma abortion providers have seen an increase in patients from Texas seeking abortion care.
Planned Parenthood clinics in the state reported a 2,500% increase in Texas patients compared to the previous year during the first four months of the state's six-week ban being in effect.
Stitt said that this bill "will take care" of Texans crossing state borders to obtain abortion care, adding: "We certainly don't want Texans coming up to Oklahoma."
Zoom out: The U.S. Supreme Court is currently considering a case that could throw the future of Roe v. Wade — which established the right to an abortion — into question.
A decision on this case is expected as soon as June.
What we're watching: The Center for Reproductive Rights and Planned Parenthood will challenge the law.
"We've sued the state of Oklahoma ten times in the last decade to protect abortion access and we will challenge this law as well to stop this travesty from ever taking effect," Northup said.
https://www.axios.com/oklahoma-governor-signs-law-abortion-ban-753a8c12-578a-493d-8932-a44ada8f0f28.html
WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court ruled on Monday that the Pentagon may take disciplinary action against a lieutenant colonel in the Air Force Reserve who refused to be vaccinated against the coronavirus on religious grounds.
The court's order, an interim measure that denied relief while appeals proceed, followed a similar ruling last month that said the Navy could consider the vaccination status of 35 of its service members in decisions about where they should be assigned or deployed. The same three justices dissented.
Elizabeth B. Prelogar, the U.S. solicitor general, told the justices that the Air Force had determined, in its military judgment, "that vaccination of service members is an essential component of military readiness and is critical to protecting the health and safety of service members."
She noted that the military had long required vaccinations, starting in 1777, when George Washington ordered the inoculation of the Continental Army against smallpox. As of early 2021, she wrote, nine vaccines were required for all service members.
Lt. Col. Jonathan Dunn, who has received many other vaccinations without objection, said he decided that the coronavirus vaccine violated his faith after seeing President Biden speak about it, leading him to conclude that "the vaccine ceased to be merely a medical intervention and took on a symbolic and even sacramental quality."
Quote from: patric on April 27, 2022, 03:24:32 PM
Stitt approves parole for man convicted in notorious Tulsa crossbow killing. Stitt is already being targeted in his reelection campaign by ads critical of his decision to approve the 2020 early release of a man named Lawrence Paul Anderson who is accused of fatally stabbing three people in a particularly gruesome attack in Chickasha within weeks of getting out of prison.
Anderson confessed, telling authorities he cut out one victim's heart to eat. He was released after the governor commuted his sentence for drug dealing and other earlier crimes.
https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/stitt-oks-parole-for-ex-tulsa-officer-convicted-in-1982-crossbow-murder-of-michele-powers/article_d253d7dc-c5c6-11ec-a2f2-f3cbd606f0ef.html
It's the Republican way!
While they want a firing squad for someone who is trying to save their lives!
So anyone else think this whole state suing Foggy Bottom Kitchens and Stitt claiming he doesn't know them and now pics come out of Stitt hanging out with the owner stinks of a bribe that didn't go through? Same as when Stitt went after the tribes? Is Stitt our new Spiro Agnew?
/ allegedly of course ;D
Quote from: tulsabug on May 05, 2022, 08:08:28 AM
So anyone else think this whole state suing Foggy Bottom Kitchens and Stitt claiming he doesn't know them and now pics come out of Stitt hanging out with the owner stinks of a bribe that didn't go through? Same as when Stitt went after the tribes? Is Stitt our new Spiro Agnew?
/ allegedly of course ;D
Anyone out there stupid enough to think it is anything else but Oklahoma Graft and Corruption??
Kinda like the guy that has to hang a porkchop around his neck to get the dog to play with him, Swadley's has to pay to get people to eat their slop! Have been dragged into their places a few times for work related events in the past and it was just something you pick at a little bit until you get free and can go to McDonald's for some good food!
Quote from: tulsabug on May 05, 2022, 08:08:28 AM
So anyone else think this whole state suing Foggy Bottom Kitchens and Stitt claiming he doesn't know them and now pics come out of Stitt hanging out with the owner stinks of a bribe that didn't go through? Same as when Stitt went after the tribes? Is Stitt our new Spiro Agnew?
/ allegedly of course ;D
Oklahoma County District Attorney David Prater said he is taking seriously a letter sent to him by a bipartisan group of lawmakers expressing concern with a campaign advertisement by Gov. Kevin Stitt featuring his appointed attorney general, John O'Connor.
Eight Republican and Democratic House members wrote to Prater asking him to investigate a 30-second ad the Stitt campaign began running last week. The campaign has booked more than $300,000 of airtime in Oklahoma City and Tulsa television markets this month.
The state Republican Party's new chairman, A.J. Ferate, said he fired the party's general counsel for criticizing the ad. A.J. Ferate also chastised Duncan for speaking to Oklahoma Watch. https://oklahomawatch.org/2022/06/07/stitt-campaign-ad-with-attorney-general-draws-further-scrutiny%EF%BF%BC/
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/oklahoma/articles/2022-06-07/district-attorney-confirms-investigation-into-governors-ad
Work in the OK Gov and question Stitt or any of his cronies about conflicts of interest? That's a firin'.
https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/govt-and-politics/internal-auditor-at-school-land-office-ousted-amid-questions-about-stitt-appointee/article_e0211232-e69e-11ec-8296-2b25c50d3075.html#tracking-source=home-top-story
Gov. Kevin Stitt appointed Elliot Chambers secretary of the Commissioners of the Land Office in July 2020. Since that time, 32 of 57 full-time employees have been fired, resigned or retired. Four directors of accounting resigned, as well as other higher-ups.
Erin Morgan, an internal auditor who worked at the Commissioners of the Land Office - the state agency that oversees $2.7 billion in real estate and other investments to support public education - was fired less than a week after looking into conflict of interest concerns raised by another top employee about their boss Elliot Chambers, a gubernatorial appointee.
Interestingly the Tulsa World found most of the records related to this are sealed but did find out that in relation to Erin Morgan's firing - "In exchange for releasing the state from any wrongdoing, Morgan was reinstated temporarily and on administrative leave so that she could become fully vested in her public employee retirement account, agreeing to resign on May 1. She was to receive back pay plus a lump sum payment of about $25,000 from the state, and, additionally, the state was to pay her attorney a lump sum of $15,000."
Quote from: tulsabug on June 09, 2022, 08:42:18 AM
Work in the OK Gov and question Stitt or any of his cronies about conflicts of interest? That's a firin'.
https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/govt-and-politics/internal-auditor-at-school-land-office-ousted-amid-questions-about-stitt-appointee/article_e0211232-e69e-11ec-8296-2b25c50d3075.html#tracking-source=home-top-story
Gov. Kevin Stitt appointed Elliot Chambers secretary of the Commissioners of the Land Office in July 2020. Since that time, 32 of 57 full-time employees have been fired, resigned or retired. Four directors of accounting resigned, as well as other higher-ups.
Erin Morgan, an internal auditor who worked at the Commissioners of the Land Office - the state agency that oversees $2.7 billion in real estate and other investments to support public education - was fired less than a week after looking into conflict of interest concerns raised by another top employee about their boss Elliot Chambers, a gubernatorial appointee.
Interestingly the Tulsa World found most of the records related to this are sealed but did find out that in relation to Erin Morgan's firing - "In exchange for releasing the state from any wrongdoing, Morgan was reinstated temporarily and on administrative leave so that she could become fully vested in her public employee retirement account, agreeing to resign on May 1. She was to receive back pay plus a lump sum payment of about $25,000 from the state, and, additionally, the state was to pay her attorney a lump sum of $15,000."
And why would anyone with anything even approaching a brain expect anything different in this state??
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on June 09, 2022, 08:52:50 AM
And why would anyone with anything even approaching a brain expect anything different in this state??
It is somewhat sad that Boss Hogg in Hazzard was actually less corrupt and much more competent.
Quote from: tulsabug on June 09, 2022, 01:32:45 PM
It is somewhat sad that Boss Hogg in Hazzard was actually less corrupt and much more competent.
Stitt issued an executive order on Friday that a press release said protects "teachers' First Amendment rights" but that reads more like a threat to unions and school administrators.
The order reiterates that union dues may be deducted from teachers' pay only at the request of individual teachers and that union membership is voluntary. It "urges" the Oklahoma State Board of Education "to take action to the fullest extent permitted by applicable law that employee organization payroll deductions meet the requirements of state and federal law."
Stitt, who has signed into law and endorsed several policies restricting what educators can say and teach, said in the accompanying press release, "It is time we fight back against the liberal unions that have been keeping a stranglehold on their cut of teacher pay, and stand up for Oklahoma educators' first amendment rights."
The Oklahoma Education Association called the order a political ploy ahead of next Tuesday's runoff elections, which include the hard-fought battle for the Republican state superintendent of public instruction's nominee.
"We have always been an opt-in organization since our first meeting in 1889," said OEA President Kathrine Bishop in a written statement. "We follow all state and federal laws and always have.
"The Executive Order ... is a baseless attack on the voices of educators ahead of an important election," Bishop said. "This only distracts from real issues like the educator shortage crisis and Oklahoma ranking 49th in education funding."
Meanwhile, the labor-friendly Economic Policy Institute reported Oklahoma teachers have the nation's second-highest "weekly wage gap" — the difference between teacher pay and earnings for non-teachers with comparable college degrees — at 32%.https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/political-notebook-almost-6-million-poured-into-cd-2-runoff/article_c1dd92a4-2006-11ed-8352-2374d5282850.html
Okla. governor mocks Democratic challenger for accurately noting state's crime rate
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/10/20/oklahoma-debate-stitt-hofmeister-crime/
Video:
https://twitter.com/dabbs346/status/1582873975453286400
https://www.readfrontier.org/stories/we-fact-checked-the-oklahoma-governors-debate-between-kevin-stitt-and-joy-hofmeister/
More on the war on education...
OKLAHOMA CITY — Gov. Kevin Stitt is pushing to eliminate the Oklahoma Educational Television Authority, alleging that the nation's most-watched Public Broadcasting Service network is airing content aimed at indoctrinating children.
The network offers children's programs such as "Sesame Street" and "Mister Rogers' Neighborhood" in addition to the ever-popular "Antiques Roadshow" and news programs "Washington Week" and "PBS Newshour."
Stitt on Wednesday vetoed a relatively routine bill that would continue OETA's operations through 2026. Unless two-thirds of the members of the House and Senate join together to override the governor's veto, OETA will cease operating this year.
"I don't think Oklahomans want to use their tax dollars to indoctrinate kids," Stitt said. "Some of the stuff that they're showing just openly sexualizes our kids."
https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/govt-and-politics/stitt-vetoes-oeta-bill-accuses-network-of-trying-to-indoctrinate-kids/article_5fc1a3b8-e5da-11ed-ae48-c31a4283a5d3.html
Quote from: patric on April 29, 2023, 11:18:18 AM
More on the war on education...
OKLAHOMA CITY — Gov. Kevin Stitt is pushing to eliminate the Oklahoma Educational Television Authority, alleging that the nation's most-watched Public Broadcasting Service network is airing content aimed at indoctrinating children.
The network offers children's programs such as "Sesame Street" and "Mister Rogers' Neighborhood" in addition to the ever-popular "Antiques Roadshow" and news programs "Washington Week" and "PBS Newshour."
Stitt on Wednesday vetoed a relatively routine bill that would continue OETA's operations through 2026. Unless two-thirds of the members of the House and Senate join together to override the governor's veto, OETA will cease operating this year.
"I don't think Oklahomans want to use their tax dollars to indoctrinate kids," Stitt said. "Some of the stuff that they're showing just openly sexualizes our kids."
https://tulsaworld.com/news/state-and-regional/govt-and-politics/stitt-vetoes-oeta-bill-accuses-network-of-trying-to-indoctrinate-kids/article_5fc1a3b8-e5da-11ed-ae48-c31a4283a5d3.html
What a strange small man.
Quote from: swake on April 29, 2023, 11:44:05 AM
What a strange small man.
'Calm down and sober up': Senate leadership has message for Gov. Stitt after mass vetoes
Gov. Stitt said in a veto statement that he will reject every Senate bill unrelated to a tax cut, teacher pay raise and school choice tax credits.https://okcfox.com/news/local/calm-down-and-sober-up-senate-leadership-has-message-for-gov-stitt-after-mass-vetoes-governor-kevin-veto-20-bills-lawmakers-president-pro-tempore-tem-greg-treat-andy-pugh-tax-credits-teacher-pay-raise-moore-cabinet-nomination-lets-fix-this
Tulsa, Okla. (KTUL) — When asked about the OETA bill, he said he was "glad to veto that one" and that OETA was "outdated" in its programming and he sees no reason to have Oklahoma taxpayers support something that outdated.
Stitt also said that OETA programming does not align with the private sector, saying, "Some of it just over-sexualizes our children."
He named PBS specifically and its display of transgender minors. He also noted the uplift of LGBTQ+ voices and how that is potentially harmful to Oklahoma children.
One reporter on the scene brought up the fact that PBS is a public station and Stitt cannot control what programs are played. Stitt responded that if anyone at home wants to watch PBS, that is okay. He just does not see the reason to have Oklahomans pay taxes to prop up OETA.
Stitt made it clear that until he can approve tax cuts and school choice for Oklahomans, which would allow parents to enroll their children in any school of their choice regardless of their zip code or school district, he has no interest in passing or discussing bills brought to him by lobbyists and special interest groups. He said he will be glad to discuss those once tax cuts and school choice are passed.
He claimed that being fresh off the campaign trail has led him to believe those are the top two things Oklahomans care about, so those are his two priorities.
.
Disgusting MAGAts!
Enough to gag a maggot off a gut wagon! (Elaboration available if reference not understood.)
Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on May 01, 2023, 11:15:38 AM
.Disgusting MAGAts!
Enough to gag a maggot off a gut wagon! (Elaboration available if reference not understood.)
Ryan Walters calls teachers' unions 'terrorist organizations' in heated legislative hearing
Lawmakers pushed back on Walters' comments that critical race theory is rampant in classrooms, asked him why he has continued his campaign rhetoric after taking office and questioned his support for school choice policies, where so-called pornographic books have been found in schools and whether his agency is applying for federal grants.
Rep. Ryan Martinez, the committee's vice chairman, abruptly ended the meeting after several members of the minority party took issue with Walters saying, "Democrats want to strike out any mentions of the Bible from our history." Walters had previously accused Democrats and teachers' unions of lying about him. https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/ryan-walters-calls-teachers-unions-terrorist-organizations-in-heated-legislative-hearing/article_6bbbc8e6-e83d-11ed-9b54-173572059349.html
No corporation worth having would be locating to Oklahoma when the official voice of state education is this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHxuHyqTkcY
I think Walters is just a Kree presenting himself as Skrull...!
Or he may just be Goose. Hard to say.