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Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: tumikepiketu on August 08, 2006, 08:09:16 am Does anyone have any idea what is planned for that space? Is it for sale, lease, rent?
I can't seem to find contact info for the owners... Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: Breadburner on August 08, 2006, 08:39:54 am I'm pretty sure it's the same guy that owns the Cain's.....
Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: AVERAGE JOE on August 08, 2006, 08:46:45 am quote: He sold Hardwood years ago so that he could focus on the renovation of the Cain's. Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: lsimmons on August 08, 2006, 12:14:16 pm It's still for lease as far as I know. The owner wants too much for the lease AND...(big and here) there is not enough parking for code so the building has to lease parking from the gas station next door. This brings the monthly total to a silly level. If you're really interested I can give you the total lowdown. A good friend of mine was trying to buy it about a year ago and I also know the people that did the last build out/remodel of it. The owner has a car lot at 11th and Yale.
Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: AVERAGE JOE on August 08, 2006, 02:27:58 pm Stupid off-street parking requirements... [:(!]
Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: patric on August 08, 2006, 07:17:25 pm quote: You might change your mind the first time you see your front yard being used as a toilet. Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: Kiah on August 09, 2006, 07:23:50 am quote: I live about a block and a half from the Hardwood, and even closer to Ed's and the Buc, and I would gladly trade the occasional beer bottle on the curb (which actually only happens during the Jenks/Union game) for removing the 'litter' of oversized surface parking lots on 11th and Harvard. On-street parking should be counted in the parking requirements. Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: patric on August 09, 2006, 09:20:12 am quote: My experience living in that neighborhood included much more than the occasional beer bottle, but I do agree street parking should be taken into consideration. The surface parking in front of the Gary Place strip center is certainly nothing to be proud of -- not so much a hint of landscaping, and their all-night Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: lsimmons on August 09, 2006, 10:11:24 pm OK..I spoke too soon. Seems in the last week there 's been work going on. New deck, etc. I guess it's either leased or the owner is renovating.
I also hear the gas station has changed hands. Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: cannon_fodder on August 20, 2006, 11:46:07 am I've lived in Tulsa for three years, and this is the 3rd owner of Hardwoods. Lets hope it works better this time.
If the last owner ever reads this, you failed because you didnt have beer a couple weekends. You didnt have your cable TV working on several other occasions (hello, Sports bar?). You never got the pizza area established as you hyped. Add to that, I showed up one day at 4pm with 7 other people for drinks and was told you dont open until 5. That's a lot of beer sales you missed out on and the Buc picked up... Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: Conan71 on August 22, 2006, 02:13:50 pm Looks as if I have several neighbors on here...I'm down at the "south end" of Gary Pl. close to 15th, fortunately there's enough of a buffer where I'm at to not worry about the parking or noise (with the exception of Jenks/Union). Maybe if Kragthorpe keeps the turn-around going, we will have people parking all the way to 15th for TU games again.
Seems to me the Hardwood went dark right after the shooting there last year. My wife and I noticed the work going on last week. Isn't that the old Moulder-Oldham building? What's up with the old JR's? Is TU going to "renovate" that property as well? Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: Kiah on August 22, 2006, 02:51:45 pm quote: Yes, just as the Tulsa World "improved" the Skelly Building -- to the ground. Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: GoDasher on October 30, 2006, 10:41:20 am A couple of months have passed and it appears that Hardwoods is closed again. In fact, I never saw it open, just the deck construction and the new sign promising pizza.
Does anyone know what is up? Also, does anyone know what is being built on Harvard between 11th & 15th? On the east side, it is a red brick building w/ two drive through windows. Just curious! Thank you! Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: Rico on October 30, 2006, 10:59:07 am quote: Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: slhtulsa on October 30, 2006, 11:28:06 pm quote: I had to park on gary right by 15th, Friday Night... Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: GoDasher on November 06, 2006, 02:41:46 pm Admittedly, Rico, are thought you were being a smart-aleck w/ the McD's pic - until I saw the "how hiring" sign this weekend. Yes, I was on my way to the 11th street McD's for hotcake. How bizarre.
Any word on Hardwoods? GoDasher Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: BKDotCom on November 06, 2006, 02:46:47 pm not having seen the bldg in question, I would have assumed Wendy's.. As a replacement for the days-are-numbered 11th st locale
Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: AVERAGE JOE on November 06, 2006, 03:24:25 pm It's a McDonalds.
And what appears to be a plan that many of us should like -- building pushed up to the sidewalk, respects the setback of neighboring buildings, parking in back, used the slope of the lot to create a retaining wall buffer for the neighborhood. If they keep their lighting pointed the right direction and their drive-thru speaker at reasonable volume, should be a good neighbor. Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: cannon_fodder on November 15, 2006, 02:07:51 pm This is my understanding:
5 years ago hardwoods was owned by a local attorney. His brother (a TU law dropout) bought in and eventually bought the other brother out sometime in 2003. In late 2005 Hardwoods was sold to a new owner, who intended to have one half a pizza house/bar and keep the other side a sports bar. That guy never got his crap together. He didnt get sat. TV, when he did, he failed to get the sports package. When he got that figured out, there were proeblsm with the liquer license... etc. It got to the point that you werent sure you would be able to watch football OR drink on game day, the much talked aobut pizza never came. So we went elsewhere. Then a new buyer stepped up. No idea who these people are but the first thing they did was a massive renovation. The inside is VERY nice, with tons of TU sports memorobelia (including a picture of the scoreboard when TU football upset OU) and more OSU and OU stuff than most places. The pizza side actually had pizza and was non-smoking. They put in that nifty deck and at one point had a big screen TV mounted on the front of the building. Inside they added 4 or 5 flat panel TVs in the sports bar side to supplement a huge projection screen. The Pizza side had another 4 or 5 flatscreens on the walls. They had alcohol, beer, pizza, AND TV. In short, it was nice. It was open a about a month before TUs opening football game this season. Then, after the first home game but beofre the second... it was closed. The sign on the wall says some crap about remodeling, but that's BS. They still serve alcohol out fron when TU is at home, so maybe I can figure it out this weekend. I figure it would be hard ot lose money at that location, so close to a college, densely populated, built in crowds on game day, and with no sportsbar within miles. Who knows... - Jesse Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: RecycleMichael on November 15, 2006, 02:50:10 pm I drove by there today and they had a banner that said "open".
Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: cannon_fodder on November 20, 2006, 10:41:12 pm But how many times will customers get burned and come back. Several of my friends made it their Saturday thing, twice now, only to have them close theirs doors. They have moved on, to other bars. [:(] Hope they trickle back, they fixed it up nice.
Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: AVERAGE JOE on November 24, 2006, 08:53:11 pm Talked to some folks over there today at the TU football game, and they say they will open on December 1. I looked inside, and they've done quite a bit to the place. Looks like a much better layout.
Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: cannon_fodder on December 05, 2006, 08:40:44 pm It was back open for the TU game over Thanks Giving day weekend. Just drove by...
Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: GoDasher on December 13, 2006, 11:54:57 am So . . .was it open? I looked out at it last Sunday while at the TU basketball game and noticed a new sign on the side - eliminating the "Hardwood" name.
Too bad the TU students don't drink more! How long has JRs been closed (my era!), but the Bucanneer seems to always have some traffic. My boyfriend noticed the "hot chicks" selling beer outside before the TU Football games. Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: cannon_fodder on December 17, 2006, 06:22:21 pm As far as I know, Hardwoods is open. The Buck is always hoppin'. Jr's has been closed for 3+ years now.
Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: patric on May 21, 2007, 03:28:33 pm ...is for lease again.
With Saffron around the corner gone, maybe a TU coffee house would be a good replacement? Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: cannon_fodder on May 22, 2007, 08:02:51 am It was just destined to close this time. I had no way of knowing if it was open or closed ever. Still don't know what the name of it was supposed to be.
For gods sake, give me a sports bar in midtown. Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: Conan71 on May 22, 2007, 10:25:26 am quote: Uh huhhh huhhh huhh, someone said "hardwood" uhh huhhh huhh huhhh (http://www.grudge-match.com/Images/beavis_butthead.jpg) Pretty much what Saffron's was supposed to be. That was a short walk from my house. We'd go there from time-to-time and I thought it had a cool beatnik vibe, but there was seldom anyone there. Two things I can't believe: I didn't see more student support for it and can't believe they made it as long as they did with the lack of support they got. If there are any TU students on here, is there a coffee house on campus? Would it have been better on 11th St? I figured that place would have been packed. Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: cannon_fodder on May 22, 2007, 10:37:48 am There is a Starbucks in the student gym and another coffee house thing in the ACAC (supposed student union).
So yes, there are a couple on campus. Neither is quite a full blown coffee house, but probably enough to keep people from walking across campus to get a cup. Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: Conan71 on May 22, 2007, 12:58:02 pm I'm figuring with all the new student housing going up, all they need to do is sign a few contracts with some fast food joints, put in a mini-mall and convenience store and TU will have effectively cut off the majority of the financial contribution students used to make to the community.
Prior to all these new apartments, where were all the students living, and what is the incentive for them to move on campus? I mean that looks like a ton more capacity than the rent houses in the surrounding area. Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: cannon_fodder on May 22, 2007, 01:44:05 pm #1) It isnt the University's job to ensure financial gain for those leaching off the student body. Their #1 job is to look after the interests of the students.
#2) TU still provides a TON of financial contribution to the area. How many professors work there and earn $100K plus a year? How many coaches? TU employees something on the order of 2,500 people at good paying jobs, some of them phenomenal paying jobs (several positions over $500,000 a year, many over $200,000). #3) TU contributes millions each year to community projects. #4) Tu still purchases their services locally. Construction materials, food items, printed materials, etc. etc. etc. I know we do work for them and I imagine many other companies do as well. #5) Advertising - "The University of Tulsa" is a great advertisement for the community. Every time they go off to win championships in Basketball, Football, Volleyball, Golf or Tennis (in the last 3 years all have been won) Tulsa gets some advertisement. Every time it is listed on the top 100 Universities, the debate team wins, etc. etc. etc. #6) Campus area will benefit. Many of the students live far away. The area immediately around campus is not cheap and there are not many apartments. I had friends that lived in Broken Arrow, Jenks, South Tulsa, Sand Springs and other outlying areas so they could get more bang for their buck. Hopefully, with more students on campus it will encourage businesses to open nearby and try and siphon some student business. /clearly biased in favor of TU, but that's my take. Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: tulsa1603 on May 22, 2007, 01:59:07 pm Saffron, though nice, wasn't exactly within "walking" distance. IT was technically close enough, but quite a jot from the main part of campus which is north and west of the Reynold Center. Also, TU has a fairly small student body, so to rely on a campus of 4000 to fill a coffee house that isn't all that close....eh. Look at the new coffee place on Cherry Street, though. It's packed every tiem I go by. I think it's all a product of pedestrian comfort. I'm much more comfortable walking down Cherry STreet with a buffer of parked cars, than I am down Harvard, which has higher speeds, less buffer, and fewer windows to shop as you walk.
Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: Conan71 on May 22, 2007, 03:57:37 pm quote: Pretty wide sidewalk on that part of Harvard. Or somone could walk up Gary Pl. then over to Saffrons. Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: TURobY on May 22, 2007, 09:31:50 pm Saffron's was nice, but the atmosphere was only accessible to a small population of TU. Additionally, those students who might have been interested in Saffron had already found a place at Shades of Brown on Brookside.
In short, TU doesn't need another coffeehouse. The demand isn't there, and the demand that does exist is served by 3-5 other establishments already (including QT). A small grocery store or 24-hour diner would be in high-demand though. The nearest places are not really within walking distance. Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: Conan71 on May 23, 2007, 10:35:14 am Well, they scraped the diner and Perry's isn't that far off campus. Great meat, but I don't suspect many students have the time to smoke ribs or grill steaks.
Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: AVERAGE JOE on May 23, 2007, 08:05:30 pm quote: fodder, not really sure where you're getting your numbers from, but... TU employs right around 1,100 people. That's been the number for years. As for employees making over $500,000 a year, that's probably only one person -- the football coach. As of 3 years ago, there were 3 employees making more than $200k a year -- the football coach, the men's basketball coach, and the president (in that order, from highest to lowest salary). I doubt salaries have gone that crazy in such a short time. I'd also be curious to know about the math on #3. Thousands of dollars - absolutely. Hundreds of thousands - probably. Millions? Not so sure about that. Everything else you said is spot-on, though. TU is one of the best things about this city. The university's contribution to Tulsa is so substantial, it's almost impossible to put a dollar value on it. Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: cannon_fodder on May 24, 2007, 09:14:31 am - The 2,500 number is not direct employment... it is the number the University uses for its 'economic impact' on employment. They probably base this on actual employment and then the amount they spend with contractors and figure it translates to X jobs. Sorry, I did not look into this and just took their number at face value.
- I would assume most professors earn > $100K at an elite private school since they do at any state university. The head football coach will earn near $1mil with bonuses this year. I would imagine the basketball coach, president, some member of the board, and/or the director of the endowment makes near $500K also. Some combination probably gets us to three people. The $200K range is probably every department head and many of the tenured law school professors. Private school so this information is not release - but if they want to be competitive with other Universities it is probably an accurate reflection. - U of Tulsa does indeed contribute millions to the community in grants, donations and gifts. That information was from the University of Tulsa Trustee Balance sheet as provided in the Alumni Magazine - Summer 2007. It is not online yet but the information appears on the last page, I believe the number was something like 3.7mil. I stand to be corrected, but it was a larger number that I expected and thus stood out. Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: AVERAGE JOE on May 24, 2007, 08:53:57 pm quote: I appreciate the reply. I would buy the community contributions -- thanks for pointing me in the right direction. However, I hate to tell ya, but the employment number they like to toss around is a lot of bunk. [|)] The actual number the university employs is 1000 or so. They might want to claim indirect employment... but that's a bunch of phoney baloney numbers. And you'd be surprised at the salaries -- TU lags way behind. There are a number of people making $100k, but the number above $200k is much smaller than you think. Let's just say I have quite a bit of inside info on that subject. [;)] btw, the football coach isn't going to be paid anywhere near $1 million this year, despite media reports. His actual salary is FAR below that and even his bonuses and coach's show revenue won't get him that high. He's the highest paid employee at the university, but he's not a millionaire just yet... Anyway, not saying any of this to bust your chops, so please don't take it that way. Just giving you the straight numbers. Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: cannon_fodder on May 29, 2007, 12:30:33 pm No offense taken, I clearly have no inside information.
The community donations were actually over $5mil when I looked at the report again. Bleh, anyway, tons of money flowing from there. Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: Conan71 on May 30, 2007, 09:54:01 am Even though the new apartments don't fit much of the existing residential archetecture which surround the TU campus on all four sides, it does look better than the mis-mash of nasty commercial buildings which where around.
Hopefully it will stimulate more renovations of residential real estate in the near radius. There was speculation for years, and I'm sure it's easy to de-bunk, that starting in the late 1970's and early '80's TU was buying somewhat delapitated properties west of campus by proxy and getting them approved for section 8 housing to drive down real estate values on the rest of the area, making acquisition for future expansion much cheaper. I'm just passing on barroom talk and like I said probably easy to de-bunk, but it seemed plausible. Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: cannon_fodder on May 30, 2007, 12:26:44 pm U of Tulsa actually bought life estates on the property. They paid for the property at market value discounted for time and allowed the resident to live in it until they died (if they so choose). That was in the early 1980's and many of those residents have died/moved so the lots were available. At which point they are bulldozed.
I presume holding a life estate with a wrecking ball waiting might lower surrounding property values, but knowing it is University owned might raise them. So who knows. To the best of my knowledge, the U of Tulsa has never owned Section 8 properties. Are you saying poor people are bad for housing values? Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: RecycleMichael on May 30, 2007, 02:20:30 pm The hundreds of new apartments/dorm rooms have added to the density of the midtown neighborhood. That has some drawbacks, but will also might spur some new business growth, maybe a closer grocery and even help make mass transit a more viable option.
Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: patric on May 30, 2007, 03:28:48 pm Ive always understood their strategy as publicizing maps of "5-year plans" with areas they plan to expand to, then sit back and watch as the resale value in those targeted areas plunge.
Title: Hardwood on 11th Post by: Conan71 on May 30, 2007, 04:09:41 pm quote: The speculation centered around proxies buying properties, which means, of course, there wouldn't be any record of TU owning section 8 housing. Again, pure barroom banter nothing more nothing less. But the banter seemed to fit with the down-turn that happened in the Kendall-Whittier area. (Must be a Freud thing, I almost put an "s" where the "w" is in Whittier [;)]) I don't know if you lived in Tulsa or not back then but: The Kendall-Whittier area made a pretty steep slide down-hill in the late '70's/early '80's. Drugs, theft, and other related crimes seem to be the predominant form of entertainment when low and no-income people move to an area which is who was moving in there. So yes, poor people can affect property values. And yes, there was somewhat of a crime problem in that area. If you don't believe me take a spin by some of the projects around town or pull up MLS and see how much lower home values are per square foot in areas where mostly lower income people live. That's not to say that every poor person is a thief or is on drugs, it's to say that those things seem to be a part of the culture in lower income areas in every city across the nation and crime does affect property values. Yes I do know that crime occurs in every neighborhood in the city, however, pulling up crime maps from the TPD, there are higher concentrations near gov't subsidized housing. K-W wasn't exactly considered a rough area until the late '70's. Before that it was mostly pensioneers and young working couples. 11th Street between about Utica and Delaware was also a pretty good place to find a date back then, and I don't mean with TU girls. I'm also aware that Universities are frequently in older parts of town which can turn rough after time. I don't know if it is still the case, but I was told one time that Vanderbilt was in a particularly rough area of Nashville, and I'm sure that's the case in many other big cities or was at some point. |