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Title: Civic Center Plaza Post by: Hometown on December 13, 2006, 02:57:36 pm There was a story in the Tulsa World the other day about a new sign that had been added to the Central Library. I had some business in the County Courthouse building so I stopped and took a look across the plaza at the Library’s new eye-catching purple sign. It certainly stands out.
It made me stop and think about the plaza. I remember when it was new back in the 1960s. The plaza looks a little time worn now. Our Civic Center Plaza represents Modern architecture. Modernism is a multifaceted school of architecture that held sway in architecture from the 1930s to through the 1970s. Tulsa has some great examples of Modernism. When you think Tulsa and Modernism – think Brasilia, the celebrated Modern capital of Brazil. Because so many of us lived through at least part of the era of Modernism it is hard for us to think of its architecture as historic. And preservationists will tell you that it is the most recent historic buildings that are often the least valued and protected. We now live in an era called Post-Modernism. The things that we make now have a Post-Modern look. The Modern esthetic is now a matter of history. We are about to remodel our Civic Center and it is inescapable that the changes will have a Post-Modern look. Slowly but deliberately we chip away at Modern Tulsa. Consider the many Modern residences that have been remodeled into mediocrity. Reflect on our loss when architect designed 1950s Modern Mayo Meadows Shopping Center is bulldozed. Soon our classic 1960s Modern Civic Center will be unalterably changed. Its design integrity lost. If we were smart we would identify the original plans for the Civic Center and endeavor to restore the entire Civic Center Plaza area to its original design. Title: Civic Center Plaza Post by: Conan71 on December 13, 2006, 03:40:54 pm My earliest memories of the square were when I'd go down to the courthouse with my Dad when he needed to catch up on paperwork on the weekends in the early '70's. Unless my memory is playing tricks on me, the first Mayfest was actually on the square.
I've never found the design nor execution of it to have been all that attractive. I guess it's a historic part of the city, but I just never found it to have a "wow" factor to it. Title: Civic Center Plaza Post by: Renaissance on December 13, 2006, 04:05:13 pm Counter-proposition: A given aesthetic is not worth preserving simply because it occurred.
Consider Boston: the most preservationist city in the country wants to ditch their modernist city hall. http://today.reuters.com/news/articleinvesting.aspx?type=bondsNews&storyID=2006-12-12T174922Z_01_N12313991_RTRIDST_0_BOSTON-CITYHALL.XML Simply put, it's ugly. I think, unfortunately, the same can be said about Civic Plaza. It's practically a blight on downtown. Now, much of this comes from neglect, and we're stuck with what we have, but when it comes to redesign, I'd say it's better to go with contemporary aesthetics than remain mired in an architectural movement that many regard to have been a failure. I'll grant the genius of Mies van der Rohe, but his many "Modernist" imitators simply produce generic, unattractive structures. I don't see what's worth preserving about these unremarkable (read: ugly) works. They have their place in history, but what I'd rather preserve, and return to, is the aesthetic that came before the ugly, drab, green-and-gray boxes. That's true Tulsa. Title: Civic Center Plaza Post by: Steve on December 13, 2006, 04:44:21 pm quote: My thoughts exactly, Hometown, when I saw the article and picture of the new Library sign in the paper. To me, the new sign just doesn't "fit in" with the mid 20th century design of the library and the plaza. I think it looks like a bad 1980's redo of a 1920's facade. I think the Library should have just saved their money. The fountains and water features of the plaza dried up several years ago, do to maintenance and water leak problems into the parking structures below. Title: Civic Center Plaza Post by: Daniel Wright on December 13, 2006, 04:48:56 pm The plaza not only looks bad it smells bad too. It seems to function as a homeles camp on most days. Last summer I had to pay a visit to the court house. The zoo's peguin statue which I assume the city paid a large amount for was sitting in a puddle of green slimy water in one of the disused fountains.
I am 28 and cannot remember the fountains ever being on? The plaza is not a waste of space, but if we are ever going to bring downtown back to life there needs to be some serious changes. For one the homeless problem needs to be addressed. The day center and the other missions downtown may have good intentions at heart but who wants to go to the library downtown and have to use the same bathrooms and facilities that someone who has not showered in weeks has just used. Title: Civic Center Plaza Post by: tulsa1603 on December 13, 2006, 05:05:13 pm quote: I understand what you are saying, and I think that many modern buildings are often dismissed as ugly when they are simply looking a little tired. But to me, the plaza has very little character or style to begin with, AnD it's looking very tired. It looks and feels like a parking garage. Even if it were rejuvenated, with the fountains working, etc., it still offers little reason for a pedestrian to spend time there, except as a pathway from one building to the other. In fact, in winter, when I have had to walk from the City Council building to the Courthouse, I find the distance rather annoying and pointless. The only building on the plaza that I think is cool is the City Council Building with it's concrete floating above a glass clerestory. The Library could also be re-touched to update...and I agree about that new sign. It doesn't fit at all. City Hall is an eyesore, as is the entire county courthouse complex. Comparing this to Brasilia is not exactly fair. BRasilia is an entire city, and much of it is beloved for the singular buildings it produced, but in architecture school, we were taught that from an urban planning standpoint, it lacks pedestrian quality space - there are vast swaths of land between all the buildings. In fact it's a glaring example of what went wrong in urban planning during the middle of the 20th century. someone at one poitn suggested doing the solar canopy over the plaza, and starting a farmer's market type thing there...I can see that, maybe. But something about the plaza as it stands is just lacking. Title: Civic Center Plaza Post by: carltonplace on December 13, 2006, 05:38:05 pm For Pete's sake let's put in some water in the fountains and put some green on the concrete and by all means Up with Trees.
Title: Civic Center Plaza Post by: RecycleMichael on December 13, 2006, 06:11:28 pm quote: Easier said than done. The amount of water to fill those pools weighs too much for the 35 year old concrete can support. The planter boxes are poorly designed to drain and are too shallow and that makes the soil temperature too hot in the summer. The entire area needs a makeover. Title: Civic Center Plaza Post by: inteller on December 13, 2006, 06:20:24 pm quote: modern design was perhaps one of the worst movements ever perpetuated on this world. bulldoze it for the sake of humanity. i've often daydreamed about the controlled implosion of Civic Center. Title: Civic Center Plaza Post by: TheArtist on December 13, 2006, 06:50:39 pm I am a firm believer in keeping a building, or plaza, as the style it was intended. Styles come, then become aged, then become retro and appreciated.
However the point must be made that as with any style some buildings were just bad examples of that style in the first place. It can become difficult then when the style has become old and unkept, to try and figure out what to do with the building. Does it need cleaning, upkeep, and or a retro make over, or was it just a lousy example in the first place? I despise it when people mix styles with a building intending to update it. Its one thing to add the retro version of an update (which is fine) and quite another to add the "latest style" update (which is not good at all, especially when they both start looking shabby, then what do you do lol?). The Civic Center Plaza could very well look good with a make over, bringing it back to looking new, combined with some retro additions that could make it even better than it was in the beginning. I haven't really ventured down there to take at look at it to know if that would do any good. But, the new library sign just looks like a tack-on, neither emulating or adding to the old style nor being a retro update. I do remember seeing the original plans for the plaza and how we went for the cheap version, not really having the style reach its full potential. This makes me worry about how our new arena will age. We lost a most of the artistry and beauty, the reason we paid for a world class architect in the first place, when we decided we couldn't afford the original version. It was a work of art, a piece of sculpture and an arena, now its just an arena. Rather than an Icon that would last the ages, we are getting the, its nice now but not gonna age as well version. In other words. If you do it right the first time, all that is needed to keep a building attractive is to keep it well maintained. If you do it half way, then in the future you will be faced with the,,, Do we do it right this time by maintaining and adding what should have been done in the first place or the retro version,,, or do you completely remodel it to a new style and either doing that half way or really spending the time and money to do it right. IMO its cheaper and easier to spend the extra money and do it right the first time. Title: Civic Center Plaza Post by: Double A on December 13, 2006, 07:19:56 pm quote: Now yer talkin'. Title: Civic Center Plaza Post by: carltonplace on December 14, 2006, 07:08:47 am quote: Too bad the convention center re-do doesn't extend into civic center plaza. Title: Civic Center Plaza Post by: tim huntzinger on December 14, 2006, 09:10:14 am We should move City Hall to a more modern building, implode the old City Hall, and make better use of that property.
What say moving CH to the 'Flashcube'? Title: Civic Center Plaza Post by: sgrizzle on December 14, 2006, 09:49:53 am How about we implode the library (once it moves) and put a nice city hall there?
The post office/courthouse needs to become a museum/meeting room/learning place. Title: Civic Center Plaza Post by: Conan71 on December 14, 2006, 11:41:04 am quote: Hey, where's your "homeless scum" comment?!?!?![;)] Title: Civic Center Plaza Post by: Conan71 on December 14, 2006, 11:48:19 am Lay-up concrete, poured in place concrete, and pea gravel veneer concrete give it an institutional feel and to me, doesn't look like much thought was given to aesthetics. I just never considered that an attractive style.
Title: Civic Center Plaza Post by: Steve on December 15, 2006, 12:32:19 pm quote: I feel the exact same way about 19th century Victorian architecture and design styles, but to "bulldoze it for the sake of humanity" is just plain stupid. You are entitled to your opinion, but quite a lot of us out there are big fans of "modern design." Modern design is/was all about new ideas, new methods, and new looks; not copying the past but creating new contemporary spaces for the future. Modern design, be it international style, mid-twentieth century modern, or post-modern styles are every bit as important to architecture and design history as victorian, rococo, gothic, romanesque, etc. Your opinion is just your personal taste, and to "bulldoze it" would be very shortsighted and regretted in the future. Styles come and go and tastes change, but once a building is gone, it is gone forever. Title: Civic Center Plaza Post by: Hometown on December 15, 2006, 04:26:43 pm Steve is right. Quality Modern buildings have their place in history and their fans. Mid-Century Modern homes are enjoying a revival in interest. Tulsa has quite a list of Modern structures worthy of preservation.
Modernism itself was about a belief in a better tomorrow. Folks that lived through the 50s and 60s might remember the optimism about the future. Modern buildings expressed that optimism. I drove by the ORU campus today and I could almost see George Jetson and his flying car zooming into one of the towers there. That campus and the Abundant Life building are so bad they are good. I think TheArtist gave us a wonderful lead. So there was an expensive version of Civic Center Plaza and a cheap version and Tulsa took the cheap version. (Ask me if I’m surprised.) I think we should look for the original “expensive” version of Civic Center Plaza and seek a name Architect to mesh it into the Civic Center Design and then build it. While we are at it, let’s add some sculpture. Maybe some Pop artists. Oh what the heck, lobby-sized paintings too. Title: Civic Center Plaza Post by: Steve on December 15, 2006, 06:12:43 pm quote: There is bad quality modernism, as well as bad quality "country French", "Tuscan", "Victorian", etc. It is all about the quality of materials, construction and craftsmen used. Modern design does not equate to poor quality. Actually, modern design requires a higher level of competence and construction craftsmanship, because you must make exact measurements and pay attention to the hidden details; you can not hide sloppy construction technique behind slapped on crown or perimeter molding and unnecessary added-on frills. The lack of ornamentation in modern design means you must get it right the first time, without the help of cosmetic cover ups. To coin a phrase, less is more. I think no one on this forum would argue that the Civic Center plaza needs attention; it has for years. But I think any renovations should try to preserve the mid-twentieth century modern design of the original plaza. Title: Civic Center Plaza Post by: pmcalk on December 15, 2006, 08:19:49 pm One of my complaints about the Plaza is the parking location. Granted, I always appreciate sticking the parking out of the way. But in this case, they put the parking directly underneath the plaza, with entrances to all of the buildings from underground. Most everyone will park, walk to their building, experiencing nothing but the cave-like, smelly, wet parking area underneath. You really must go out of your way to walk through the plaza--find the steps & go up them, if you are even aware that the plaza is above you. I go down there quite frequently, and sometimes forget the plaza is there. Even the parking garage next to the civic center connects, not to the plaza, but to the underground parking. What a great way to ensure that no one walks through a public area. The only time you really see anyone around the area is on Monday morning, when the poor jury pool is waiting to go through the metal detector at the court house(after Monday, they enter the courthouse underground, as well).
Title: Civic Center Plaza Post by: TheArtist on December 15, 2006, 09:23:09 pm ^I always thought that whole configuration was rather strange. Its difficult to see and find where you are going, its ugly underneath the plaza, the plaza isn't kept up, course nobody sees it because they are wandering around underneath. I always get the feel that I am walking into some dark, back entrance, basement of the buildings, not a real entrance. Just odd. What were they thinking? Of course one could ask, what are they still thinking with that new entrance to the library. Is there no one in charge of the cities public aesthetics? Who is responsible for this kind of thing?
Title: Civic Center Plaza Post by: cannon_fodder on December 17, 2006, 06:21:02 pm Artist - the concept is a neat one. They were trying to get the feel of the classic Roman Forum. Where the people came to do all their civic business, laws were made, judgments passed, and so on. I really like the idea, but at this point is has turned into an ugly and rundown plaza that people avoid. It certainly isnt the inviting pulbic center that people flock to, as they invisioned.
Title: Civic Center Plaza Post by: TheArtist on December 18, 2006, 12:13:32 am quote: I agree, and think the plaza could be spruced up and look quite nice. But most people dont see the plaza for as pmc said, you park under it then just go into the buildings from under the plaza and never see the plaza. The plaza can't be seen from the street while driving or when walking by on the sidewalks. I think they should do 3 things. 1. Repair and clean up the plaza and the buildings around it. 2. Make it so that you don't park underneath (perhaps just employees and the like) and block those areas off from view. Also make it so that when you park in the garage you are lead to the plaza not underneath it. 3. Add a water feature that shoots up or is tall enough to see from the street. People are attracted to water features and this would help people realize there is a plaza and be enticed to go up there. Have some benches around the fountain. Also put a couple of large, modern, sculptures in the plaza for added interest. All of these things would help a great deal towards making it a living working plaza. Also, I was wrong about the new library sign. I was under the impression that it was actually the entrance to the new library, that it was attached to the building. It is not and stands apart like its a piece of sculpture. However as I drove by I had the same bad feeling I always do about all the trees and shrubs between the library and the street. It has never seemed right. But who can complain about large nice trees? Then I realized why it wasn't right. Just as Philbrook, an italian villa has italian gardens, or an english cottage has english gardens, etc. A minimalist, modern structure like the library should have simple minimalist landscaping around it. As it is the hodgepoge "forest" of large trees and shrubs, clashes with and hides the library. Some simple grass, a well trimmed hedge or something along those lines would make that area flow and feel clean, crisp and open, matching the style of those buildings and the plaza. Title: Civic Center Plaza Post by: Hometown on December 18, 2006, 07:58:51 pm I was thinking about TheArtist’s question. Who is in charge of esthetics? Then I remembered my experience getting a building permit in Oakland. I replaced some windows in a condo and the condo board wanted a city permit and an inspection.
To obtain a permit I was required to bring a photograph of the replacement windows and also a photograph of the condominium building. There were written guidelines for changes to existing buildings and there was a city employee who made a judgment call about how well I had followed the policy. The city actually had written guidelines that specified that the new windows had to be similar to the windows being replaced and that the addition had to mesh well with the original design. I was surprised. I imagine Tulsa has a similar process. So the answer is that esthetic decisions are policy and the policy is enforced by a city employee through the permitting process. I guess the real decision making all takes place in forming the policy. Hey, by the way, I vote for keeping City Hall at Civic Center Plaza. But the idea of consolidating city employees downtown and being more of an anchor tenant for downtown is a good ideal. The State of Oklahoma should follow suit. Anyway, there already is a nice synergy of people doing government business in the Civic Center Plaza area. I was in the plaza today at lunch and the plaza is not bad. It needs some serious maintenance and maybe some restoration work – possibly an update if it is done really well. A lot of stuff has been added to the Convention Center area since the beginning. Like the exhibit hall that crowds the Convention Center in back. And as previously pointed out the underground parking is kind of a dank labyrinth. There actually is a decent sculpture next to City Hall that looks like it might be original. I think I remember it from the 60s. But the plaque in the ground is missing. A lot of the problems with the plaza are just simple housekeeping and maintenance. Restore the fountains and landscape and clean like the dickens and tear out some bad additions. Celebrate New Years Eve there as pmcalk suggested in another thread. Put some tables out in good weather. Title: Civic Center Plaza Post by: tim huntzinger on December 19, 2006, 09:14:08 am quote: See? Another great idea first read here! (http://"http://www.tulsaworld.com/NewsStory.asp?ID=061217_To_A1_Conso1462") Title: Civic Center Plaza Post by: tulsa1603 on December 19, 2006, 09:35:53 am quote: Having gone through the permit process numerous times in Tulsa, there is no person in charge of aesthetics. They deal only with code, which deals with matters of life safety, fire protection, parking, etc. There is zero aesthetic control from the city. It doesn't matter what materials you use, as long as they are applied in a way that creates a complete structure that won't allow rain in, etc.. If you had done the condo window replacement here in Tulsa, all you would have had to do is file a permit, tell them what you were doing, provide some installation details, prove that the windows met egress requirements, and you could be on your way. They wouldn't care if you were replacing original multi-paned steel casements with sheet glass vinyl sliding windows...Honestly, I prefer it this way, because I believe in the freedom of a private property owner to do what he wants (I'd just prefer that more property owners were educated on aesthetics!). I can't even imagine the headache that would be involved in having to get approval on how your project looks? I consider myself ot be a more than competent architect and designer, and having to prove my design to some city bureaucrat would probably be enough to drive me from the profession. I can only imagine it being akin to going before the city to get a new house in a HP Zoning district, which can be a difficult process. But sort of getting back to the root of that question...who decides the aesthetics when CITY built projects are going up? On private projects there is an architect and there is a client, and they are the ones that work through the aesthetics...who decided the library needed a new sign, who designed it, who approved it? Title: Civic Center Plaza Post by: Conan71 on December 19, 2006, 02:53:03 pm quote: Roman Forum???? Ya gotta be kidding me. Might have helped if they would have flown to Rome first. [}:)] Title: Civic Center Plaza Post by: Conan71 on December 19, 2006, 02:54:20 pm quote: I've heard ORU referred to countless times as: "Six Flags Over Jesus". [;)] Title: Civic Center Plaza Post by: Hometown on December 19, 2006, 10:49:31 pm You know the umbrella shaped carousels on civic center plaza are really perfect for Mid-Century architecture. I believe they are original. The plaza offers a long deep view that terminates in the convention center. All of the main structures on the plaza are decent examples of the period. There were many important buildings and plazas of the time built with concrete finishes.
I wasn’t kidding about cleaning. The county court house building is grime covered. In fact all the buildings look like they are due a good bath. I’ve seen similar buildings cleaned and the results were striking. The police building was added on to and the exhibit hall at the back of the convention center is an add-on. The large circular parking building is new. These additions could all go and the civic complex would be better for it. I could see buried parking where the current parking structure is. It really crowds and detracts from the convention center. If the city is looking for retail space, parts of the underground parking might provide an area of development. Because of other complaints here I think it would be good to look at restructuring the parking. How about keeping executive and front offices at the current city hall and moving back offices elsewhere downtown? A Claus Oldenburg sculpture on the plaza would be nice and I can see Andy Warhol’s Elvis portrait on a lobby wall at plaza level in City Hall. Imagine the shock and excitement when folks from the country encounter a giant pop sculpture on the plaza. A trip to the heart of the city should leave you with a tale or two to tell. In warmer months I could see groups of tables and seating for brown bag lunches. I’d like to see a regular police foot patrol in the civic center area. Hey, you know what? This is an inexpensive fix. I believe a Mid-Century Modern classic like our civic center complex will wear well if we don’t mess it up. Title: Civic Center Plaza Post by: TheArtist on December 20, 2006, 06:45:19 pm I actually think the idea of having the rest of the government offices move next door into the library is worth looking at. Then We could build a great new Library not a new City Hall.
Title: Civic Center Plaza Post by: Hometown on July 06, 2007, 06:51:01 pm I wanted to resurrect this old thread because it dove tails with current discussion about moving city hall. Something I'm against.
I really enjoyed all of the posts in this thread although, if I remember correctly we seem to be missing about two or three pages of posts, some with graphics. Or was that another thread? Title: Civic Center Plaza Post by: cannon_fodder on July 09, 2007, 08:45:18 am Well HT, I am soundly against any move of City Hall until something is under contract for the old space. If you think the area is bad now, lets see it with an abandoned and condemned building sitting in the middle of it.
Title: Civic Center Plaza Post by: sgrizzle on July 09, 2007, 08:52:30 am Anyone willing to bet lunch on this week's council vote?
Title: Civic Center Plaza Post by: Hometown on July 09, 2007, 11:49:18 am Okay Scott, I'm up for it.
If it loses or is delayed I want to be chauffeured in one of your muscle cars. I want you to drive me around Conan's yard and leave some tread marks in his fescue. If it wins what can I do for you? Criticize your enemies? Your laundry? What? Oh, that's right, lunch. Okay. Now forgive me but I have to go get pumped up for my showdown with Swake. Title: Civic Center Plaza Post by: Conan71 on July 09, 2007, 12:53:25 pm It would be very tricky to trench my postage-stamp of a yard, but if you can do it, I'll give you $50 just for making the effort and give Sgrizz gas money to boot. [}:)]
Not the strip by the curb, that's a cinch, but the terraced part. |