I've been thinking about this concept since The Artist came up with it, and I've concluded its got to be one of the coolest ideas I've heard for an under utilized paved over portion of downtown. I was wondering if TulsaNow could endorse it and push it forward the same way they did the 6th St infill project.
Here is the original thread:
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4758&whichpage=1
quote:
Originally posted by carltonplace
I've been thinking about this concept since The Artist came up with it, and I've concluded its got to be one of the coolest ideas I've heard for an under utilized paved over portion of downtown. I was wondering if TulsaNow could endorse it and push it forward the same way they did the 6th St infill project.
Here is the original thread:
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4758&whichpage=1
One of the better ideas to emerge on the forum. It acknowledges the reality of downtown, a place many people only visit on Sundays and Wednesdays, and uses that momentum to good advantage. Perhaps the Metropolitan Ministries would be a place to start. Not sure of the name but I think it includes most of the big religions downtown.
I'm sure there are some wealthy donors at Holy Family that would be interested in investing in something like this, not to mention the Catholic Diocese of Tulsa would probably lend their support. Now if only a local developer/architect would step forward with the know-how I'm sure this project could happen.
This really does seem like a great idea. I feel like the biggest problems would be involved in getting the parking lot owners to sell, not to mention finding a developer willing to build. It would probably take some intervention along the lines of what's happening with Towerview, where the TDA would take control of the property and steer its development. With city resources pretty much stretched to the limit, this probably won't find room on the downtown agenda until the arena distric and East End are nearing completion. Otherwise, this is really a second or third level project in a theoretical downtown timeline. It's going to take success by the pioneering residential and retail developments before second-level types will come in and push a project like this.
Still, making it a priority is something I'm all for. That part of downtown needs a focal point, and I would bet that both TCC and the religious community could be brought on board. If random "Stakeholders" can push artificial islands (!) to the center of civic discussion, surely a determined group of citizens with a practical plan and caring attitude can achieve similar results.
^Remind me after the holidays.
I've been thinking a lot about this lately and how it could really be a catalyst for development in south downtown. A lot of attention downtown has been around the arena, along Boston Ave., the Blue Dome, and now Brady with the ballpark. However there is still a significant "hole" in the urban fabric of south downtown between the CBD and the church district/uptown. Cathedral Square would be an opportunity to bridge that gap with a new park that could be surrounded by mixed-use residential. I would LOVE to present this idea to the church and City...
I found a fountain on ebay that would work with this idea!
http://cgi.ebay.com/MONUMENTAL-PALACE-CARVED-MARBLE-PALATIAL-FOUNTAIN_W0QQitemZ250268930056QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250268930056&_trksid=p3286.m14.l1318
quote:
Originally posted by circassia
I found a fountain on ebay that would work with this idea!
Holy God...do you have any idea how many Owassoan cheerleaders that behemoth would kill?
quote:
Originally posted by Townsend
quote:
Originally posted by circassia
I found a fountain on ebay that would work with this idea!
Holy God...do you have any idea how many Owassoan cheerleaders that behemoth would kill?
Damn you, beat me to the punchline.
quote:
Originally posted by Floyd
Damn you, beat me to the punchline.
I totally hurried.
LOL... you made me spit up my drink with that reply, Towns!
quote:
Originally posted by SXSW
I've been thinking a lot about this lately and how it could really be a catalyst for development in south downtown. A lot of attention downtown has been around the arena, along Boston Ave., the Blue Dome, and now Brady with the ballpark. However there is still a significant "hole" in the urban fabric of south downtown between the CBD and the church district/uptown. Cathedral Square would be an opportunity to bridge that gap with a new park that could be surrounded by mixed-use residential. I would LOVE to present this idea to the church and City...
quote:
from TheArtist in the thread, PlaniTulsa and TulsaNow (//%22http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10700%22) speaking of what he saw at the PLANiTulsa mtg.
... The idea of valuable property, above your head and even above existing buildings. I thought it was fascinating how there were so many older buildings that they had developed right on top of. Or that say a church parking lot can still stay, but you build on the property that exists in the air 10 feet above it. The church still owns the ground property for their parking needs, but they can lease out the air property above to developers.
This idea would be great for much of the surface parking in south downtown.
quote:
Originally posted by SXSW
I've been thinking a lot about this lately and how it could really be a catalyst for development in south downtown. A lot of attention downtown has been around the arena, along Boston Ave., the Blue Dome, and now Brady with the ballpark. However there is still a significant "hole" in the urban fabric of south downtown between the CBD and the church district/uptown. Cathedral Square would be an opportunity to bridge that gap with a new park that could be surrounded by mixed-use residential. I would LOVE to present this idea to the church and City...
Cathedral Square would be a great benefit to southside Downtown. My suggestion is to take it a step higher.
Let's bulldoze Hwy75 between US244 on the north and Hwy51/64 on the south. It's not needed, you can still go around the CBD via the highway system to the west. The CROSSTOWN can exit 1st/2nd at Kenosha into the Greenwood/Ballpark/Brady/BlueDome districts. The BA [51/64] can exit/enter on 13th at Detroit or Cincinnati into the southside district of downtown. Or further west at Cheyenne/Denver or Houston at 11th.
A gateway into the CBD could be developed along Cheyenne/Denver at 11th. A gateway into the Entertainment District [EnDi] could be developed on 1st/2nd at Kenosha. Detroit and Cincinnati at 13th could be the gateway into the south downtown [SoDo] Residential Park District.
Mixed-use, 3-story+ walk-ups, residential and walkable retail [grocer/meat mkts, etc] could develop north along Boston/Cincinnati/Detroit towards Cathederal Square, the CBD and EnDi.
When Hwy75 between US244 on the north and Hwy51/64 on the south is bulldozed. We now have land available to make Tulsa's very own
Madison Avenue Park [just west of existing Madison Ave.] or enlarging
Central Park!
click map to enlarge>>(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3205/2675805312_1ea343c855_s.jpg) (//%22http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3205/2675805312_78236e288c_o.jpg%22)
This
new park running for 11 blocks, north and south would re-connect the Pearl District and its residential neighborhoods to Downtown. Thus making 3rd and 6th streets prime areas for growth and redevelopment. Walkable, high density residential as far east as TU. Just think of the blend of residential and retail that could grow in intensity from Delaware Ave all the way west to Downtown.
Well, just on man's opinion. I could not make it to PLANiTulsa's last meeting, but I'm planning on making one again soon and see if this 'PARK' can make it into the CompPlan.
quote:
Originally posted by mrB
quote:
Originally posted by SXSW
I've been thinking a lot about this lately and how it could really be a catalyst for development in south downtown. A lot of attention downtown has been around the arena, along Boston Ave., the Blue Dome, and now Brady with the ballpark. However there is still a significant "hole" in the urban fabric of south downtown between the CBD and the church district/uptown. Cathedral Square would be an opportunity to bridge that gap with a new park that could be surrounded by mixed-use residential. I would LOVE to present this idea to the church and City...
Cathedral Square would be a great benefit to southside Downtown. My suggestion is to take it a step higher.
Let's bulldoze Hwy75 between US244 on the north and Hwy51/64 on the south. It's not needed, you can still go around the CBD via the highway system to the west. The CROSSTOWN can exit 1st/2nd at Kenosha into the Greenwood/Ballpark/Brady/BlueDome districts. The BA [51/64] can exit/enter on 13th at Detroit or Cincinnati into the southside district of downtown. Or further west at Cheyenne/Denver or Houston at 11th.
A gateway into the CBD could be developed along Cheyenne/Denver at 11th. A gateway into the Entertainment District [EnDi] could be developed on 1st/2nd at Kenosha. Detroit and Cincinnati at 13th could be the gateway into the south downtown [SoDo] Residential Park District.
Mixed-use, 3-story+ walk-ups, residential and walkable retail [grocer/meat mkts, etc] could develop north along Boston/Cincinnati/Detroit towards Cathederal Square, the CBD and EnDi.
When Hwy75 between US244 on the north and Hwy51/64 on the south is bulldozed. We now have land available to make Tulsa's very own Madison Avenue Park [just west of existing Madison Ave.] or enlarging Central Park!
click map to enlarge>>
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3205/2675805312_1ea343c855_s.jpg) (//%22http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3205/2675805312_78236e288c_o.jpg%22)
This new park running for 11 blocks, north and south would re-connect the Pearl District and its residential neighborhoods to Downtown. Thus making 3rd and 6th streets prime areas for growth and redevelopment. Walkable, high density residential as far east as TU. Just think of the blend of residential and retail that could grow in intensity from Delaware Ave all the way west to Downtown.
Well, just on man's opinion. I could not make it to PLANiTulsa's last meeting, but I'm planning on making one again soon and see if this 'PARK' can make it into the CompPlan.
That won't happen (bulldozing the highway) without a federal nod to do so. That part of the highway is an unsigned interstate (I-444) and it is maintained with federal funds.
Plus, it displaced me when I was 6; I lived at 14th and Elgin and that leg of the IDL going in required our homes to be bulldozed. It better not get it again. [:D]
If you guys are interested in the Cathedral Square concept, then you need to be sure and check out the Project for Public Spaces website: www.pps.org (//%22http://www.pps.org/parks_plazas_squares/%22)
Be sure and read:10 Principles for Creating Successful Squares (//%22http://www.pps.org/squares/info/squares_articles/squares_principles%22)
As Tulsa continues to prove, you can't just plunk a park or plaza into an area and expect it to thrive. (Note all the hideous "public spaces" downtown...that are rarely, if ever used except by homeless people.) Public spaces should tie in with the surrounding areas. You need symbiosis and synergies. It can't just be an island. It has to be an organic part of everything around it. (Unfortunately the 6th and Main park doesn't have any connection to its surroundings. It'll be nice during Mayfest, I guess.)
The Project for Public Spaces is a cool website with lots of great ideas...that Tulsa can't seem to grasp.
A square full of art and fountains and beauty surrounded by restaurants, bars, shops, galleries, and lofts...all serviced by transit? Now you're talkin!
All ya have to do is look at every other "Cathedral Square", Town Square, or similar place in a thousand other small towns to big cities all over the world. Its worked well for thousands of years, its a basic, assumed given that every city has.... except Tulsa.
It seems really odd that we dont have one. I thought the planners of Tulsa back in its heyday admired and wanted to emulate the great cities of Europe. Yet no central square?
Usually the courthouse or main city building is opposite the main church. Where was the old courthouse in relation to the Cathedral here? Did we once have a square and it just got destroyed?
If you look at the old plat maps, there was not a central square or anything in the blocks. I looked and wondered why myself.
The old city hall building is located on 4th b/t boston and cincinnati, really on the SW corner of 4th and Cincinnati. No church near there, but there might have been prior to the parking garage across the street being erected north of the old city hall.
I like the idea of a church district. There is a need for more centrally focused green space around which to inspire development. While the majority of available old urban renewal property is on the East-NE side of downtown, much of the essential development needs to occur as close to the existing downtown infrastructure as possible.
Great forum. This is basically what I constantly think about and discuss with my friends.
Welcome aboard BG
I think it's important for the development of downtown as a whole to "break it down" into smaller neighborhoods or districts. We have done that with Brady, Greenwood, Blue Dome, and somewhat with the arena but the rest of downtown is lacking. If you can create a focal point for a new district to develop, in this case a park/plaza in front of one of the most beautiful cathedrals in this region, then you have something to build around, so to speak. Parks and plazas are good places to start.
Trying to develop "downtown" is a lot harder than trying to develop smaller, individual neighborhoods or districts. Oklahoma City has had a lot of success with turning their downtown into districts that focus development while each "district" begins to develop in its own unique way. That is the direction we should be heading, and Cathedral Square is a great place to start IMO.
That's a good idea. I wonder what ever happened to the whole "Mayo Place" idea. Is still in development since the Mayo Hotel is finally undergoing renovation?
There should be more/better parks/plazas downtown. They do need something in the Blue Dome/Brady area.
One of the great things about a Cathedral Square type place versus the usual downtown park or plaza, is that people like to go to a place with an intentional "view". Its nice to have something wonderful to look out at. Having an open space in the middle of some boring buildings, even if it has a fountain in the middle, just doesn't quite do it.
Being able to be on one side of an open space, look out over a fountain and past that to something like a Cathedral, is very,,, fulfilling. Throw in people milling around that space, an outdoor cafe or two, people watching and chatting with friends, adds icing to the cake. But the best public spaces, the ones that really work, are the ones that if nobody at all were there, you would still want to go there, would still enjoy being there, just relaxing and enjoying the view. You sometimes almost wish you could be the only one, or couple, there enjoying that space. But its rare that nobody else is there because its so wonderful that people just constantly flock to it.
That space right there is really the only place downtown that we could build such a place. Its the perfect spot... and its a tabula rasa.
quote:
Originally posted by TheArtist
One of the great things about a Cathedral Square type place versus the usual downtown park or plaza, is that people like to go to a place with an intentional "view". Its nice to have something wonderful to look out at. Having an open space in the middle of some boring buildings, even if it has a fountain in the middle, just doesn't quite do it.
Being able to be on one side of an open space, look out over a fountain and past that to something like a Cathedral, is very,,, fulfilling. Throw in people milling around that space, an outdoor cafe or two, people watching and chatting with friends, adds icing to the cake. But the best public spaces, the ones that really work, are the ones that if nobody at all were there, you would still want to go there, would still enjoy being there, just relaxing and enjoying the view. You sometimes almost wish you could be the only one, or couple, there enjoying that space. But its rare that nobody else is there because its so wonderful that people just constantly flock to it.
That space right there is really the only place downtown that we could build such a place. Its the perfect spot... and its a tabula rasa.
I could see many a senior photo and wedding/engagement pics being taken from such a park in front of Holy Family. That cathedral is really beautiful but unfortunately all the best vantage points of it are either buildings or parking lots so not many can appreciate it. It is, IMO, one of the most beautiful cathedrals in this region, maybe the entire South. There is no reason it can't be a tourist attraction in itself like beautiful cathedrals are in other cities if a nice viewpoint, Cathedral Square, were in place with surrounding development. Any restaurant/cafe that opens with that view and outdoor seating would do quite well IMO.