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Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: carltonplace on February 09, 2007, 08:26:20 am River Parks Plan: Gift lets trails double up
By P.J. LASSEK World Staff Writer 2/9/2007 Kaiser donation of $12.4 million set for parks The George Kaiser Family Foundation will announce Friday that it is giving $12.4 million to create a premier trail system in the River Parks. The donation is the largest private gift in the 32-year history of the River Parks Authority. The funds will be added to $2.4 million in 2006 third-penny sales tax money allocated to River Parks for a total of $15 million to fund the project. The money will be used to create a dual trail system for pedestrians and cyclists that replaces the existing River Parks trails on the banks of the Arkansas River between 11th and 71st streets. The river has become an area of intense interest for the community, and "the trail system is something that can be done irrespective of what else is done along the river," George Kaiser said. A news conference to announce the trail enhancements will be held at 10 a.m. Friday at 41st Street and Riverside Drive. Kaiser said the first step to improving the river "is to bring the trail system up to the standards of excellence that we think Tulsa deserves." The 32-year-old trails have outgrown their use, he said. "We want to create a trail system that has community gathering spots, places where people from all ends of the community come to recreate, celebrate or exercise." Kaiser said. "We have the bare beginnings of that . . . but much more can be done," he said Read On (http://"http://www.tulsaworld.com/NewsStory.asp?ID=070209_Ne_A1_Giftl61922") Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: sgrizzle on February 09, 2007, 09:27:20 am (http://www.tulsaworld.com/images/2007/070209_A1_Giftl61922_a1park19.jpg)
Turkey Mountain: (http://www.tulsaworld.com/images/2007/070209_A1_Giftl61922_a1park39.jpg) Crow Creek Bridge: (http://www.tulsaworld.com/images/2007/070209_A1_Giftl61922_a1park29.jpg) Map: (http://www.tulsaworld.com/images/2007/070209_A1_Giftl61922_a1box0209a.jpg) Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: sgrizzle on February 09, 2007, 09:27:59 am Overall a very welcomed change.
Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: Double A on February 09, 2007, 10:01:16 am Finally, somebody that gets it. It's kinda off the subject, but I think it would be really cool if there was a carousel ride in river parks like the one in Central Park.
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p315/TYProle/1.jpg) (http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p315/TYProle/carousel.jpg) Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: cannon_fodder on February 09, 2007, 10:14:29 am All the talk about doing something with the river, finally someone steps and DOES something.
Thank you. Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: citizen72 on February 09, 2007, 10:54:43 am I agree the monies are great, but with that much money we can do much more than just jogging trails. Not everyone is into jogging. We can make River park a show place.
Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: sgrizzle on February 09, 2007, 10:57:06 am quote: It would be nice to do more, but the jogging trails, biking trails, as well as safety barriers and landscaping will improve the overall infrastructure and allow for future projects. It is a very good place to start from. Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: waterboy on February 09, 2007, 11:02:31 am quote: I agree. Considering this is private money being used for public improvements of a basic nature, it is hard to be too critical. Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: jne on February 09, 2007, 11:20:14 am I completely agree that these improvements will lead to other good development. Huge chunk of private money - no complaints from me there.
However, the 'chat' material has really got me concerned. Are they really planning to use mining waste that contains lead, cadmium, and Zink? Does this hold up t the "standards of excellence that we think Tulsa deserves."?! Was this a foot-in-mouth use of the word 'chat'? Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: aoxamaxoa on February 09, 2007, 11:20:28 am Tulsa's finest asset!
Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: waterboy on February 09, 2007, 11:41:49 am quote: I thought the poster was joking. Chat is not just from Picher and loaded with Zink and lead. It is crushed rock from many sources. I saw nowhere any mention of using tainted chat. Thats how rumors get started I guess. Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: jne on February 09, 2007, 11:48:46 am I'm not trying to start any rumors, but I have never heard that term used to refer to any other sort of material. This dangerous material is actually currently being used as a paving material. There are trucks running day and night out of Pitcher, OK carrying the stuff to who knows where.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search Chat, a local term for mining waste, is a lead/Zink mining waste from the tri-state mining district. Chat, also known as granular mine tailings, is composed of chert-like material, containing lead, Zink and cadmium contaminants. The tri-state region covers approximately 2,500 square miles and includes parts of Ottawa County, Oklahoma; Cherokee County, Kansas; and Jasper and Newton Counties, Missouri. Chat is usually found in large mounds, called chat piles, that appear grayish white in color and impact surrounding environments severely. Chat can be used to sprinkle on snow-covered roads to improve traction. The surrounding area of a chat pile usually appears desolate and destroyed, with decaying trees. It is unsafe to inhale the vapors around large amounts of chat. Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: carltonplace on February 09, 2007, 11:50:37 am quote: I'm on the river trails every day. Personally I like to run on the pavement, but many people prefer to run on the gravel. A bifurcated jogging trail gives everyone the surface they prefer. On top of that it looks like there will be extensive soft-scaping done so that the trails will appeal to people that just want to take a stroll, or look at the river. It is interesting that the plan includes the west bank at 21st St and that the article mentions the public projects in the 3rd penny (there were also $1m or so for bank improvements in V2025). Just to re-cap a few of those projects are: * An Improved "River's Edge" restaurant * A stage at 21st on the East Bank * A new theater on the west bank * a marina where the current theater is * Improvments to restrooms and the west bank play area Sounds like Kaiser knows there will always be a west bank. Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: waterboy on February 09, 2007, 11:54:45 am quote: i'm guessing that definition was different before the internet and Wikipedia. Chat is often used as a word to describe crushed rock. If you're really worried, call someone at the Kaiser foundation and ask. Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: waterboy on February 09, 2007, 12:00:01 pm quote: I'm sorry, these make me laugh! A marina? A stage? A theater? Please. Improving "Rivers Edge"? That wouldn't take much. How did I miss this stuff. Silliness. Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: Kenosha on February 09, 2007, 12:24:00 pm This is a really, really good thing. Hard to find the negatives in this one, though I am sure you all will give it your best shot.
Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: patric on February 09, 2007, 12:28:17 pm quote: I hate to point this out, but you dont make bad lights better by installing twice as many of them. Since they're apparently re-thinking the whole trail, why arent they re-thinking the lighting (other than just how to burn more electricity)? Did we forget we have an Energy Policy? Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: aoxamaxoa on February 09, 2007, 12:35:41 pm It's not amusing reading about "chat" when the real hazard is the direction of the wind, if you catch my drift. I think this gift is great. If they would only do something to cut down on the air borne toxins and pollutants which are carcinogenic.
Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: sgrizzle on February 09, 2007, 01:19:15 pm quote: Those are goldfish bowls. Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: brunoflipper on February 09, 2007, 01:41:28 pm quote:this is really, really great... Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: patric on February 09, 2007, 02:48:08 pm Unless the city has done some serious re-thinking on lighting parks, then what they consider "improved lighting" is this glary horror:
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-12/1116161/bad_ge_posttop.gif) (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-12/1116161/jogging_trail.JPG) I can elaborate on why glare and pools of intense light surrounded by large areas of dark dont enhance safety, but it's also important to remember the river is more than just real estate and is only being "borrowed" by humans. If we abuse the privilege we might not get another chance. Here's a note about lighting paths with wildlife in mind (always nice to hear from lighting experts who arent in the business of selling electricity): As one of the Environmental Specialists working on the U.S. Wildlife Lighting Program, I was asked to respond to your email request. Yes, we are doing a large amount of ground work right now in the United States with Wildlife Lighting Partners including the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, The National Park Service, the USDA Forest Service and the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission. The Three Criteria of Wildlife Lighting: > 1) *Keep it Low* (mount the fixture as low as practicable for the illumination task. Path lights, shielded bollard lighting and louvered step lights are good examples. Avoid floodlights and pole mounted fixtures whenever possible. The higher the fixture is mounted -- the harder to shield and the more atmosphere the photons must pass through. _Keep it low_ also refers to the lumens output. Use only the amount of light needed to take advantage of natural human night adaptive - mesopic and scotopic - vision) > 2) *Keep it Shielded* (Fixtures must be fully shielded and downward directed. The IES Classification of full cut-off (FCO) is a good starting point. No filament, bulb, or glowing lens should be directly visible from the wilderness area, wetland, natural buffer, beach, park, or migratory corridor. Many fixtures are available with house-side shields (HSS) that must be used to block light trespass visible from the wilderness area. > 3) *Keep it Long* (Long wavelength light sources have been found to be less disruptive to many nocturnal animals. These light sources appear yellow, amber or red to the human eye. Examples include Amber LED bulbs, low-pressure sodium lamps, Red LED bulbs, some low wattage yellow "bug" lamps, and TSL filtered compact fluorescent. Energy efficient lamps also increase the total score on the Wildlife Lighting review because they help protect natural resources by decreasing energy consumption.) (MY NOTE: Metal Halide light (the so-called "white light" that's actually the very bright blue light like you see at car lots) is short wavelength light, and shouldnt be used anywhere near the river.) When lights are needed, the best balance has proven to be 580nm or longer. Here we see humans readily accept amber colored light as being "romantic" easy to see and navigate in low-light conditions and many people are already comfortable in this type of "nocturnal light conditions" in theater lighting, sunsets, restaurant and step lights. It is important to remember that light wavelengths are only one of the three criteria for Wildlife Lighting. Fixtures must meet ALL THREE WILDLIFE LIGHTING CRITERIA to be considered acceptable. Only those fixtures and lamps submitted to the USFWS and/or FWCC that successfully pass lighting inspection (No uplighting and minimal lateral light trespass) and wavelength analysis receive certification and permission to use the Official Wildlife Lighting logo device in marketing materials. Some fixtures and lamps that may help you in your path lighting project: http://www.state.hi.us/dlnr/dofaw/fbrp/sos.htm http://www.wfharrislighting.com/store/index.php?catid=61 Dean Gallagher, ESII Florida Fish & Wildlife Conservation Commission Division of Habitat and Species Conservation Imperiled Species Management Section 620 South Meridian Street Tallahassee, FL 32399-1600 OK, maybe a bit more technical that what you really need but you get the picture. Also, since were talking about a city park intended for human utilization, were possibly looking at slightly greater lighting levels than the Forest Service, etc., would recommend so scale accordingly while keeping these basic principles in mind. Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: sgrizzle on February 09, 2007, 02:52:36 pm How about lining the edges of the trails with EL wire? It would look like "TRON" at night...
Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: Kenosha on February 09, 2007, 03:22:19 pm quote: Patric & Aoxo, I knew you had it in you. Nice work. Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: sgrizzle on February 09, 2007, 03:36:57 pm Here's a mockup:
(http://kotv.com/newsimages/640/9682d17e-cedb-412c-9340-004d34cff720.jpg) Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: Ed W on February 09, 2007, 03:44:12 pm quote: It costs about $1 million per mile to build trails and this plan calls for both building a new one and widening the existing one. The present trail is too narrow and doesn't meet AASHTO standards. But the really expensive items are the bridges. Also, River Parks want to re-locate the trail to the west of the casino, between it and the river rather than the present alignment. But if I recall right, that has to wait until the construction is finished in that area. Or is it finished already? It's been months since I've been down that way. Regardless, the River Park is a gem - something Tulsa should be proud of having. Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: YoungTulsan on February 09, 2007, 04:09:41 pm quote: Actually, that is about what you can do with 15 million dollars. You'd need more money for other ideas. Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: BKDotCom on February 09, 2007, 04:14:53 pm quote: That's good to hear! No parking lot entrances to deal with. quote:I don't know what the timeline for the trail renovation is... But, I'm guessing the casino is between 18 and 24mo to completion. Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: YoungTulsan on February 09, 2007, 04:16:00 pm I like this news, and only hope that the trail construction doesn't make it impossible to run on the trails for a long amount of time.
Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: brunoflipper on February 09, 2007, 04:18:34 pm quote:they were out shooting grades this week... trees have been tagged between 21st and the ped bridge... Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: carltonplace on February 09, 2007, 05:30:03 pm quote: Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: Ed W on February 09, 2007, 06:04:58 pm quote: Yes, that's true. It's also a lesson on the politics of building trails when they cross city, county, state, federal, and tribal lands. Each government gets a say on how or if the trail will go through. Then toss in the bureaucratic hassles of whose budget pays for construction and maintenance, and it can rapidly turn into a difficult project. Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: Breadburner on February 09, 2007, 06:45:41 pm quote: Will you feel better if it was refered to as screenings.....Another name for crushed limestone....No conspiracy here.... Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: patric on February 09, 2007, 10:54:07 pm quote: Constructive criticism is an opportunity to improve on something. Please take it in that spirit, and the realization that there might not be a better chance at "do-overs" for a long, long time. The development of our river is a critical yet fragile endeavor. It would be irresponsible of us not to give it a closer look. Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: carltonplace on February 10, 2007, 12:56:46 am quote: This list was put forward by the former mayor, right before the end of his term. There was also an east bank boardwalk and a bid grab for the Towerview that Councilor Martin and then Councilor Baker (respectively) removed. Remember that this was the time after the INCOG plan and before the Channels. Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: carltonplace on February 10, 2007, 01:14:04 am quote: True enough. but I don't get the impression that the CN is looking to impose their will on the trail, I think they're trying to make certain concessions to get their Casino/Hotel built and this expediates/greases the process. Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: tim huntzinger on February 10, 2007, 09:07:09 am quote: Tagged . . . for termination? Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: patric on February 10, 2007, 11:43:03 am quote: ...as in being replaced by asphalt? Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: TheArtist on February 10, 2007, 02:47:17 pm quote: Well frankly whoever designed it in the first place, planted waaay to many trees in some areas anyway. And as we all know they didn't put enough water in the river either. Oh, and while I am at it, Can someone please call whoever needs to be called and get rid of this cold weather, I am like sooo over it. [;)] Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: Hometown on February 10, 2007, 03:41:05 pm How about a little negativity in this sea of positive feeling?
Was the decision to update the trail based on any input from the public? Or was this an entirely top-down decision? You know, folks at the head of the food chain telling people further down the food chain what they need. Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: YoungTulsan on February 10, 2007, 04:02:41 pm quote: They're making the trail wider, thats it. I don't see how a wider trail with a seperate road for joggers and for bikes could be any sort of conspiracy of evil men at the top controlling the poor unwashed masses. An updated path to jog on without worrying about getting run over by a bike because you have headphones on and couldn't hear the guy yell "left" (Edit: I hope you were being facetious and I replied in vain :D) Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: Rage on February 10, 2007, 10:44:10 pm Yeah I sort of felt like uhh when I read that the money is going towards widening the path to fit the bikes and the joggers...
That’s a lot of money towards the river trail paths... Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: charky on February 11, 2007, 01:24:06 am quote: [:)] That's assuming the bikers actually yell "left". I run on the Riverparks 4-5 days a week...and it's probably 50/50 (no offense to the bikers out there...plenty of knucklehead runners and walkers as well). As a runner and someone who enjoys the trails...I give this project a very enthusiastic thumbs up. Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: Double A on February 11, 2007, 01:42:38 am quote: Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: Double A on February 11, 2007, 01:49:12 am quote: I think this kind of checks and balances is a positive thing, because even though it might slow things down and seem inconvenient, it ensures that the final product(for better or for worse) is something everybody agreed on. Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: AVERAGE JOE on February 11, 2007, 12:42:59 pm So the trails upgrade wasn't actually the "Kaiser River Plan", it was simply a generous gift from Mr. Kaiser. The actual Kaiser River Plan (http://"http://www.tulsaworld.com/NewsStory.asp?ID=070211_Ne_A1_Group10312") was unveiled in the Sunday paper.
First blush: looks a reasonable set of concepts, and I particularly appreciate the fact they acknowledge that a lot more work and study needs to be done. Also noted -- they plan on the public taking part in the process once the engineering studies of what's possible are done. Cautiously optimistic thumbs up so far. Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: patric on February 11, 2007, 01:45:16 pm quote: The Whirled reports make it sound like the miniature divided highway is a done-deal proclamation, or are you referring to the new plan to put water in the river? Question to the daily trail users: I see the logic in widening the trail from it's original 8' fire lane width, but would two such trails really be necessary? "(The) First rule in government spending: Why build one when you can have two at twice the price?" -- Carl Sagan, "Contact" Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: brunoflipper on February 11, 2007, 01:48:05 pm quote:yes... on a daily basis, i am nearly run over by a cyclist... or, depending on your point of view, i nearly cause one of them to crash... Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: Rage on February 11, 2007, 01:57:30 pm Hey at least there trying to do something but its a waste on just a path way...
Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: Ed W on February 11, 2007, 01:57:37 pm quote: The River Park Authority had a meeting two years ago regarding conflicts between pedestrians, skaters, and cyclists. At high-use times, the congestion along the trail causes hazards to all trail users. That's why there's now some signage and lane markings. Back then, the idea of separated facilities was discussed, but funds were not available. Chicago marked lanes along the popular lake front trail in an effort to separate cyclists and pedestrians. It's had mixed success. Too many people ignore the rules. Should we expect better results here? Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: waterboy on February 11, 2007, 03:17:32 pm quote: Good point! Every once in awhile I come across a strange jogger on the path that decides to run against traffic and refuses to yield. He's in good shape and looks loaded for bear so most of us just move over. Some day he's going to catch me in one of my moods and we'll end up on the evening news! Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: Ed W on February 11, 2007, 04:16:50 pm quote: My son was about 12 when he rode the trail for the first time. He quickly discovered that the sight lines and bend radius made it difficult to determine which side of the trail a runner was on. "You can't go FAST here, Dad!" he said. This from a kid who had only two speeds: stopped and as fast as possible. There are allegedly two speed limit signs posted somewhere along the trail. It has a 10mph speed limit which is probably fine for someone out for their annual bike ride, but it's far too low for anyone reasonably fit. Toss in a stiff tailwind, and a cyclist can cruise along at 25 mph. Someone going that fast should be out on Riverside Drive, not the trail. Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: AVERAGE JOE on February 11, 2007, 04:47:41 pm quote: Um, the big announcement on the front page of the paper -- the actual plan for two new pedestrian bridges, etc. Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: TheArtist on February 11, 2007, 06:38:38 pm I would looooove to see 2 different trails. Would be nice to have trails of different speeds. When bikeriding or rollerblading I am always afraid someone walking their dog that the dog may swerve in front of me and kids often dont pay the best attention to what is going on. Course when I am on my rollerblades I am in danger of falling on anyone, walking or biking, plus trees, benches,poles, rocks, statues, bridges,crow creek, etc. etc. lol. I would assume that only one of the two will have the chat so likely that would help divide them between walkers/joggers and the other bikers and rollerbladers. Unless the one is half paved and half chat then I guess rollerbladers could go on both. One lane designated as a bike lane here and there with signs would be nice too. Hopefully people here would mostly abide by that. My assumption would be that the lane closest to the river would be for walking and running.
Title: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: carltonplace on February 12, 2007, 08:01:55 am ^ That's one thing that really annoys me when I'm on the trails.
People, please watch out for your children and animals; they are not able to look out for themselves. I've seen little children walk right in front of cyclists while their gaurdian was talking into their cell phone. I've never seen a child get hit, but I've seen a cyclist hit the deck to avoid a child. One crazy parent started berrating a cyclist because he yelled out in surpise when her child walked in front of him. She cursed him up and down, the whole time with her cell phone to her ear and oblivious to what nearly happened. When I walk my dogs on the river, we stay off of the trail. If we have to use the trail, I keep my eyes peeled. When I'm running I stay far to the right, and remain cognizant of the people using the trail around me. I think dual trails are going to be a benefit as long as people still pay attention where the trails merge at 21st and at 31st. Title: Re: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: SXSW on February 03, 2010, 04:36:43 pm An update on this project: the section from 58th to 71st should be done by March, weather permitting. The trail from 11th to 48th was completed last spring and the final section from 48th to 58th, halted due to the I-44 construction, should be completed by early 2011. That will be a great day when this entire new dual trail is finished between 11th and 71st. Maybe Kaiser will announce another grant to extend the dual trail further south past the Creek Casino?
(http://www.tulsaworld.com//articleimages/2010/a22riverparks02032010.jpg) http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20100203_11_A22_Cyclis925527&allcom=1#commentform (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20100203_11_A22_Cyclis925527&allcom=1#commentform) Title: Re: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: sgrizzle on February 03, 2010, 08:29:17 pm An update on this project: the section from 58th to 71st should be done by March, weather permitting. The trail from 11th to 48th was completed last spring and the final section from 48th to 58th, halted due to the I-44 construction, should be completed by early 2011. That will be a great day when this entire new dual trail is finished between 11th and 71st. Maybe Kaiser will announce another grant to extend the dual trail further south past the Creek Casino? The Creeks are supposed to be revamping the area near the casino. Title: Re: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: charky on February 04, 2010, 04:06:44 am Good news!
(saw our buddy sauerkraut pop up in comments section of this TW article. :( Same old tired talking points.) Title: Re: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: rwarn17588 on February 04, 2010, 06:42:49 am Good news! (saw our buddy sauerkraut pop up in comments section of this TW article. :( Same old tired talking points.) I guess he got tired of being deservedly mocked here. He'll fit right into the cretins in the TW comments section. Title: Re: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: Conan71 on February 04, 2010, 11:09:47 am Good news! (saw our buddy sauerkraut pop up in comments section of this TW article. :( Same old tired talking points.) That's weird supposedly buys a house here then we never hear from him again. Any bets on an over/under on his IQ? I'm guessing 90. Title: Re: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: Townsend on February 04, 2010, 11:12:41 am That's weird supposedly buys a house here then we never hear from him again. Any bets on an over/under on his IQ? I'm guessing 90. I always assumed the medical trials went awry. Title: Re: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: Hoss on February 04, 2010, 11:26:58 am I guess he got tired of being deservedly mocked here. He'll fit right into the cretins in the TW comments section. Damn. Half the reason I posted here was to mock him. ;D Title: Re: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: RecycleMichael on February 04, 2010, 11:41:37 am The TulsaWorld comments sections are certainly wacko.
There was a picture and a story about my wife's campaign for school board yesterday where the comments section called her an Obama-loving liberal because she talking about involving the community in schools. Title: Re: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: Conan71 on February 04, 2010, 12:11:50 pm I always assumed the medical trials went awry. How am I ever going to get all this coffee off my keyboard?? Title: Re: Kaiser River Plan Revealed Post by: godboko71 on February 04, 2010, 04:32:31 pm How am I ever going to get all this coffee off my keyboard?? Get a straw and suck it right up. Love our river on topic, and like our trails :) |