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Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: TheArtist on February 11, 2007, 07:16:20 pm There have been many threads on here where the notion has been batted around about having a full-fledged college downtown would be one of the best things to not only give downtown a boost but would make Tulsa a far more attractive city.
However I can't recall hearing any real discussion about such a thing from our officials. Or from Tulsa Now. I have several questions that I would like to have answers to if anyone knows. 1. How do state funded colleges get funds allocated to them? 2. Who decides and how could they be persuaded to put more money into Tulsas OSU Downtown? 3. Who in our city is supposed to be doing this persuading and making sure we get our fare share? 4. If we eventually plan a vote for something for the river, wouldn't that be a great time to see if voters think expanding our college downtown would be a good idea as well? 5. Would we be allowed by the regents to expand OSU Tulsa through our own initiative or would we have to get permission? 6. Who can I, as a citizen, express my concerns too? To whom would I and others, like people in Tulsa Now, write in the hopes of getting some movement? I bet most would agree that the idea of having a college downtown would be a great benefit in so many ways. Even the people working on the MAPS 3 for OKC realize the idea would be a good one for their downtown area. Their problem is that they already have a large college just 30 minutes away. Whoever planned where the colleges in this state should be, and then those after them that kept funding them in the same places and not seeing the writing on the wall that they needed to start funding them within the largest cities, needs to be shot. The fact that people in OKC can even consider building a college that would attract 30,000 to 50,000 students near their downtown, for they realize the benefits that such an idea could bring, makes you wonder why Tulsa isn't working on it with urgency. http://okcbusiness.com/industry_article.asp?cID=D&aID=88797879.129172.574288.7493669.9712408.495&aID2=44167 http://okc.gov/planning/coretoshore/visuals/feb_concept_ne.jpg Think about it, lets say that OKC decides to do a targeted college like an arts college. (which has been bantered around in OKC) How many arts colleges can we really have in this state? If they got one first wouldn't it look silly for us to then say, Oh we should try to build one too. Its not that reasonable to try and have two major arts colleges, or other such targeted colleges, in this state. We, the ones without a large college right next door, should be the ones making the next big move via colleges in this state whether targeted or not. Not waiting for OKC to figure out what the best type of new college would be and then leave us trying to copy and compete, not only for students but for those generous donors, or find the next best idea. Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: SoonerRiceGrad on February 11, 2007, 10:16:28 pm We are not interested in building an arts college. The idea was completely stupid. Oklahoma City University is already the finest university in the nation for dance, opera, music, acting, and many other fine arts. (These are programs that complement the Meinders School of Business and the law school at OCU that are also tops.)
Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: TheArtist on February 11, 2007, 10:54:23 pm quote: The idea for an arts college was just an example. But were you saying that the idea for an arts college was completely stupid? Or the idea for a college near downtown OKC is stupid? And why do you think so? I think it would be stretching things waay to far to have another college so close to OU and OCU already, but if the reasons and benefits of having a college near downtown were seen to be important enough to bring up even when everyone knows that OU and OCU are so close, wouldn't it thus be all the more valid and important for Tulsa? Yet even in our circumstance it doesn't appear that anyone is pushing to expand OSU Tulsa to the extent of OKC's proposal. Its as if here again we are going to let things, aka OSU Tulsa, "evolve naturally". Whenever someone, somewhere gives us a bit of some money to do something, well a little more will get done. But don't seem to find it important enough to taking any active steps to really get things moving. I am just kind of frustrated that we haven't proposed anything like that. WE DON'T have the colleges like they do, yet THEY were the ones who came up with that proposal? It seems backwards. Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: USRufnex on February 12, 2007, 01:03:26 am quote:OCU alum who studied opera and sang leading roles there blushes... [:I] That said, the last time I checked, OCU had ONE-TENTH the endowment of TU. But, then again, OCU has never offered a petroleum engineering department... [:O] In my opinion, Tulsa has always had trickle down arts. Tulsa Ballet, Tulsa Opera and the old Tulsa Philharmonic have all had more profound effects on TU and ORU than the other way around. Back in the day, I was a studio artist for Tulsa Opera WHILE still studying at OCU. At the time, the Tulsa Opera Studio program was done from OCU, not TU or ORU. Sure, TU would have a few good students of Laven Sowell (Tulsa Opera's chorusmaster for years and years) and ORU put out a handful of really good people who went onward and upward... but the departments lacked resources. And OCU isn't losing millions upon millions of dollars per year to play Div I football and basketball, although the pressure seems to be on from OKC Mayor Mick's office to have OCU return to NCAA Div I basketball... And ORU? Well, I once saw a production of Mozart's Magic Flute where Sarastro's famous bass aria "O Isis und Osiris" was translated into English as "O father, son & holy spirit." D'oh. Oral Roberts decided to fund and build his City of Faith... TU decided to prop up its Div I football program... http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/2006-11-27-.500-bowl-teams_x.htm quote: I've heard TU's traditionally offered a strong theatre dept but their music school is painfully small and just doesn't attract the talent it should. Rice seems to be TU's role model in many respects but Rice has a strong music dept... so does Univ of Houston... while we're at it, so does North Texas State Univ in Denton... OCU took a strong vocal music department and over the years transformed itself, adding all sorts of stuff since I went to school there... including this: http://www.okcu.edu/petree/humanities/art/expansion.html There's a reasonable artists area down the street from OCU at "The Paseo"... an area that does very well without having to resort to a TIF district, thank you very much... http://www.okclive.com/paseo/ This year's Miss Oklahoma/Miss America was not from OCU as is usual.... but this time she's a musical theater major at Univ of Central Oklahoma in Edmond... again, OCU's music school contributed to the community as a whole when a couple of its faculty as well as some graduates moved over to UCO's music department and basically built the department from scratch in the 80's... Wish a good arts program could happen at OSU-Tulsa, but how? What's even more odd is the case of Tulsa Community College; how does a COMMUNITY COLLEGE have a modern performing arts center and its own symphony orchestra.... unless the college becomes a 4-year school, it makes ZERO sense and is a complete waste of resources... then again, when Stratton Taylor was wielding power in the state legislature, Rogers State became a four year college... guess Claremore doesn't want the competition of a traditional 4 yr state school in Tulsa... neither does NSU... So Tulsa gets shortchanged. I'd be happy if OSU-Tulsa downtown becomes as strong as Univ of Central Oklahoma.... or contributes to its downtown like IUPUI in Indianapolis... Something is better than nothing... start there and grow... Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: rwarn17588 on February 12, 2007, 02:33:58 am OSU-Tulsa has made it clear it's going to become a full-bore four-year institution in a few years (and may have some such programs already, if I'm not mistaken). I'm sure it has other expansion plans, too.
So what am I missing here? Are OSU-Tulsa's efforts not good enough / fast enough? Is it not close enough to downtown for you? (I'm not being a smart*ss; I'm genuinely wondering.) Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: TheArtist on February 12, 2007, 08:44:40 am quote: I consider OSU Tulsa to be downtown. But, whenever I see how the state budgets are divided up each year, well, I just don't see how OSU Tulsa is going to become the college I think we need in "a few years" or even a few decades. I also see that the colleges that aren't in Tulsa are still getting the lions share of budget increases, by far. We still get table scraps. My personal opinion is that the state has 50 years of making up to do, we should be getting more than the others at this point, or at least an equal share of new funds, not 10% or less. Of course I know that is unrealistic. But its still frustrating to look at what OU and OSU are building and how they are growing right now, then look at what OSU Tulsa is building and how its growing right now, and wonder if the state and OSU is serious about OSU Tulsa. Plus this is in an environment where we have been asked by a local group to consider 600mill dollar development proposal to make Tulsa competitive. ((Wouldnt far less for a university downtown be wiser?)) Its an environment where we "Tulsa Now" and others are pushing to find ways to get Tulsa and its downtown to thrive again. ((Wouldn't building a great university right downtown be a great thing for it, and all of Tulsa, yet where is the discussion and efffort there?)) Its an environment where I read in the papers all the time where cities are expanding their universities with hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars worth of improvements and growth so that they can create jobs and remain competitive. (( Don't we want that? Or are we happy with 10 mill here 30 mill there, every few years or decade?)) Its an environment where the city of OKC throws out the idea for funding a large university near its downtown stating the benefits that having one would have as a reason why the city should consider it, even though, they already have a major university so close (( Yet apparently Tulsa doesn't think its worth pushing for? )) No, I don't think we are trying hard enough or that the college is being seen as an important part of that equation. There should be far more focus, discussion, and yes urgency, if it were. I see more talk about lighting, where sidewalks should go, arguments about parks, etc. etc. than discussion about something I consider far more important, our downtown college. Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: swake on February 12, 2007, 09:34:49 am I think OSU is doing well downtown but is hampered by state rules and changing those rules is being blocked by Oklahoma City politicians and TCC. OSU (and all other public colleges in Tulsa county) are prohibited from offering first and second year classes and cannot offer classes that overlap with Langston-Tulsa. These rules are in place to protect Langston and TCC (and I think also to dampen any competitive advantage Tulsa might gain vs OKC). Tulsa needs to tell TCC to shut up (as the city has paid for most of the infrastructure of TCC) and fight the rules in the state legislature. So I would say call or write your State Senator and Representative as I have already done. These rules were nearly changed in the last legislative session but were successfully fought by Oklahoma City rep Opio Toure.
Beyond these rules I would say that OSU is really doing a good job on the school and the city and state are doing well in support of OSU Tulsa. The Advanced Research facility that is nearing completion is being built with a combination of vision 2025 money, state money and a large gift. OSU is working now a study for housing on the campus and they have announced plans for a new student union on campus in the next couple of years. The state also has leased the former Tulsa Regional Medical Center for 50 years for OSU’s medical school and the downtown hospital has been renamed The OSU Medical Center and the state is also pumping $40 million into infrastructure improvement at the hospital. In fact, I cannot disagree more with the idea that higher education, other than the rules about who can offer what, is not being supported by the city and finally by the state. Five years ago Tulsa had a UCAT which was a dizzying maze of weak offerings of upper level classes that usually ended in a degree of dubious worth from Langston University. The Tulsa area now has a wealth of options just waiting to have their hands untied from stupid rules. UCAT is now a much larger campus than when it was UCAT and is now known as OSU-Tulsa (with a ever shrinking portion devoted to Langston who is still supposed to be moving) Rogers State University (formerly a junior college), NSU has built a big new campus in Broken Arrow (and not in Tulsa county), OU-Tulsa was given a huge gift on Yale and is doing great things there and TCC continues to build on as well. TCC for example is about to start construction on a large new downtown building funded by the state. The goal for all these colleges has to be the removal of the rules about who can offer what. Langston has proven it has no commitment to Tulsa by not even bothering to use the funds passed in 2025 to build a new campus. Time for them to go and to let these college compete with each other for students. Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: sgrizzle on February 12, 2007, 09:54:31 am OSU's plans:
http://www.osu-tulsa.okstate.edu/future/vision.asp Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: cannon_fodder on February 12, 2007, 10:53:25 am Small text kinda sorta off topic...
Somehow this became a comparison to Oklahoma City University, how, Im not sure... but whatever: First, sorry to say but while OCU might have good fine arts programs they are not "tops," Juilliard , Berkley, UCLA... those programs rate as tops. Likewise, for business its Wharton, Harvard, U of Chicago, Yale. Law is the same story. While I am sure OCU is a fine institution and I do not place full stock in national rankings, to say it is "tops" is certainly a stretch. Also... per athletics. It is my belief that a strong athletic department serves a university as well as strong academics. Perhaps this should not be the case, but without the athletics few people outside the region know of schools except for a select few. No one would know what Notre Dame was (which, incidentally, does not achieve as highly academically as one might imagine). Nor would many people recognize Auburn, Ganzaga, Syracuse, Northwestern, Baylor, or the like. While two of those are huge schools, there would still be no reason for people outside the region to really know them. Certainly true for Ganzaga... or the like of TU. Furthermore, TULSA'S ATHLETICS ARE SELF FUNDING. As I often do, I will post to an actual source instead of just randomly stating what I think as a fact: http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/InstDetail.asp?CRITERIA=3 While it is true that the expenses probably dont include capital improvement (Im not sure on that, but Im guessing not), Tulsa is not spending millions a year on D-I athletics. And EVEN IF THEY WERE, the exposure Tulsa gets from appearing in a bowl game, winning the NIT, or going to the elite 8 is more exposure than could be bought with tens of millions of dollars. At least people have HEARD of the school. Not to mention it gives something for Students, Alumni and family to participate in and be part of their school. Coming from out of state I knew of Tulsa for its basketball prowess - but had never heard of OCU. Again, I have heard nothing bad about the academics at OCU, just that outside of this reason there is no reason for anyone would have heard of it. Back on topic... All indications are that OSU Tulsa is expanding to a true four year institution. There are currently 2,600 full time students at OSU Tulsa. Currently the program is a bit piece meal, with trips to OSU-Stillwater needed to complete many degrees. When that gets taken care of (which is in progress), they anticipate doubling the number of students three times over (20K by 2020). There was some talk a while back about building housing for OSU-Tulsa students downtown by some officials. Not sure what came of it, but it is mentioned in their plans: http://system.okstate.edu/planning/plans/viewplans_tul.php Currently the University encourages students to live in the area of campus: http://www.osu-tulsa.okstate.edu/services/housing.asp Anyway, even with 20,000 students at OSU-Tulsa (which would match or exceed Stillwater) the campus would feel kinda hallow with no Basketball or Football... Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: TheArtist on February 12, 2007, 06:27:13 pm 20,000 students in 13 years going to college at OSU Tulsa... Plus TCC metro expanding and OSU Medical Center, Now we are talking. That will be some very good growth. Last time I looked on the OSU Tulsa website they didn't have that stuff. Nice to see the vision laid out like that. Hopefully it will succeed. I guess I will calm down now.[8D] Thanks for the info guys. Oh and I like the look of the campus as it is shown in the renderings.
Any idea what the new TCC building will look like? Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: USRufnex on February 13, 2007, 01:08:28 am quote:I'm not sure either... a little shocked, actually. OCU has for decades been a good regional school for music and arts. And it's odd hearing such nice compliments about my alma mater from somebody with the screen name, SoonerRiceGrad ?!? Back when I was there, we referred to OCU's school of business as half commuter-school and half Oklahoma Chinese University... also when I was there, OCU's law school was a running joke-- the only law school in Oklahoma at the time with mostly part time students (my R.A. in the dorms was some law student who boasted how he once "got kicked in the head by a buffalo in Colorado?!?" He gave us that mcnugget o' wisdom after we got him really drunk one night and asked him how somebody so stupid could ever get accepted into law school........ at OCU?!?). [:P] And OCU's beauty queen angle probably had a lot to do with the fact that pretty female singers are a dime a dozen and usually don't get big college scholarships at OCU-- so enter Miss America-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miss_America quote: quote:In what context does TU offer a STRONG athletic department? "We're No.1! We're No.1!"???? Nope. TU fans would be perfectly happy to chant "We're No. 25!!!" [:D] quote:Honestly, very few outside of the region care about TU football... now that Kragthorpe's gone on to greener pastures at a school MUCH LARGER than TU, people outside the region and down the turnpike will care even less... ever heard of "the point of diminishing returns"? quote:At the risk of sounding like AOX... TU is NOT, and never will be Notre Dame... oh, and Notre Dame has a better music school than TU... tra la, tra la... quote:I could care less about Gonzaga's academic programs, but I do like rooting for the underdog (just like I do for TU or Wichita State or Southern Illinois or Bradley)... But there is a word for people who go to a college simply because they like the NCAA football or basketball teams, they're called: LOSERS! Northwestern has great academic programs... great arts programs... Baylor has its own charm-- did I mention they also offer a much better music program than TU?... Auburn and Syracuse are huge state schools... quote:Your link is lacking; don't see anything there... quotes please?... I suppose if by "self-funding," you mean a buncha boosters willing to go hog-wild, offering huge PAYOLA for coaches who'll only stay at TU a few short years before moving onward, you could be right... TU is a minor league college and small fish in the NCAA's feeder system... yay team!!! [}:)] While Rice, (The Shephard School of Music is a gem, BTW, while TU's music school is a cubic zirconium), a school most closely resembling TU's reality, was pressured into staying in Div I by some of their jocksniffing alumni despite losing $10M per year... quote: quote:Not spending millions??? See Rice, above... hey, I grew up with Nolan Richardson and TU's "Ain't No Stoppin' Us Now" NIT champs while in high school, and years later camped out at the ESPN Zone in downtown Chicago to watch TU and Bill Selfish in the Elite 8 with some OSU Cowboys' fans.... even watched the heartbreaker TU lost to Wisconsin for a spot in the Sweet 16 a few years back..... I was the only TU supporter in a northside Chicago bar filled with WISCONSIN fans in BADGER RED! And despite this... and despite having hundreds of rehearsals in my mispent youth at TU as a Tulsa Youth Symphony alum... I didn't go to TU's music school... and I don't regret it... neither did Kristi Chenoweth... quote:Now you're just being ignorant. I'm not name calling...... that honor's reserved for Average Joe..... just stating facts here. And you're ignoring them. The best thing OCU did in the 80s was to drop from NCAA Div I down to NAIA basketball. Then they concentrated on what they did well... serving their community through strong arts programs. Funny, how "working class" OKC got grass-roots arts in OCU... while "sophisticated" Tulsa got stuck with TU athletics... And Tulsa wants a state-funded "arts" high school downtown???... in the area of an OSU-Tulsa campus that offers lotsa degrees but NONE in the arts???... Color me skeptical. Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: cannon_fodder on February 13, 2007, 11:14:29 am Horribly off topic now... I know. But in response:
First, I screwed up the font, the off topic part was supposed to be SMALLER than the rest in my previous post. Sorry. Now on with the show: 2) I would consider Tulsa’s Athletic Department strong for several reasons: a) D-I across the board. b) Most sports are fully funded with scholarship positions c) Strong booster support d) Success. Conference Championships from their first full year in the conference: Women’s Basketball Football Tennis And softball e) Recently chosen to host championships in several sports From a school the size of Tulsa, I would consider that a *VERY* strong athletic department. I never said that we were the best athletic department in the nation, nor that any of our programs are. But for a small school, with limited funding, that disqualifies prospects and scholarship athletes for academic reasons… Tulsa has done damn well. 3) I never said anyone cared about Tulsa athletics… I simply said it makes people aware of the University. Specifically, I said that without an athletic program many schools would not have the notoriety they enjoy or in many instances never even be heard of. 4) I never compared TU to Notre Dame. It was a school I mentioned as one primarily known because of its athletics that enjoys a heightened reputation because of it. 5) I also never implied that people should go to a school because of its athletic programs, but it does have an impact. First, if a high school kid has never even heard of a school it is unlikely that they will have an opportunity to consider attending. The vast majority of high school kids are ignorant. They look at schools they have heard of or are familiar to them. They often chose schools their parents are ‘fans’ of or they themselves cheer for. The vast majority of high school students do not seriously consider the academic credentials of a school in the broader marketplace… their 18 and wanting to move out of moms house. Likewise, I never dissed any of the schools I mentioned. I fully realize that Auburn and Syracuse are huge state schools. But they are huge state schools a full country away from the West Coast and in a different world than the midwest. There is no reason a high school kid in Nebraska would have heard of either of those institutions if it wasn’t for their athletic programs. I know full well that Baylor and Northwestern are among the finest schools in their respective conferences. I’m sure they have great research departments and other academic affairs, but that in no way broadcasts their name to the ignorant masses. 6) The link was to the Department of Education Title 19 Compliance. You cannot link directly into the database, so I linked you to the home page. You had to click the top link and type in “Tulsa.” Below is a link one path deeper into the database: http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/search.asp - type in Tulsa They spend $18,169,019 a year ($7,000,000 on scholarships) and bring in $18,169,019. $6.8 Million of the athletic budget is raised from non-sport specific sources, one would assume that to be boosters, or the renting of facilities. So, if nothing else, the athletic department funds $7,000,000 scholarships with a disproportionate number to minorities. When I said “not spending millions” I was trying to confer that they are not taking millions out of the general fund to pay for athletics. 7) Tulsa is indeed a smaller fish in a big pond per athletics. It feeds talented coaches to larger schools and has to win with less talent and resources than many larger schools. So what? Should everyone but Texas, Nebraska, and Oklahoma drop their football program in the Big 12? No one but ACC schools bother to play basketball? We should probably disband the Drillers, Oilers, 66ers, and high school sports too… since they just feed larger systems. I prouder of a small school with limited resources being able to stand up to the big boys and lose, than the school spending more than twice of TU’s total athletic budget just on football… scraping out a win over Tulsa. 8) Im sorry Rice is losing hordes on Athletics. As one of the best endowed schools in the nation I’m sure they are able to handle it if they so desire. However, I would like to point out they lose $14,000,000 a year, not 10. (they spend nearly twice on football was Tulsa does). 9) As per OCU dropping D-1, it may have been the right decision for them but I would be a “jock sniffing alum” and insist Tulsa hold onto its D-1 status. It is a point of pride for the University, its graduates, and the community, a public service by providing entertainment to the community, an economic engine for the community, a source of scholarships, an activity that unifies the students, a medium to make the university more well-known, and a part of college life. All that aside, there is something to be said about watching “your team” play or hearing from a friend in another part of the country tell you they saw “your team” on ESPN last night. Anyway, you can keep your grassroots art movement and I’ll keep TU athletics. I go see a game almost once a week and go to Gilcrease/Mayfest or other ‘art scene’ activities a half dozen times a year. Oh, and I think a University in Downtown Tulsa would be nice. [:)] Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: Renaissance on February 13, 2007, 01:41:07 pm The campus will come first, then the football. Boise State didn't have a D-1 team a decade ago. South Florida didn't have a team at all. There is a trend nationally of formerly commuter schools beefing up their athletics as a way to draw in full-time, residential students. This may be in the future for OSU-Tulsa. Maybe in 2030 they'll take down USC in the Fiesta Bowl.
Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: USRufnex on February 13, 2007, 04:47:39 pm quote: And I can enjoy the fact that OCU's contribution to "working class" OKC is artistic... while TU athletics, in my opinion, is an overfunded diversion for a tiny private school... despite TU's bowl appearances of late, TU was ranked 86th of 119 Div I schools in average per game attendance in 2006... once again, this represents a point of diminishing returns... http://www.kenn.com/sports/football/ncaa/index.html#2006 It would be nice if OSU-Tulsa started playing Div II or NAIA football... but there is still a real void in this city for a first rate school of the arts... OSU-Tulsa could/should fill that void and would be a natural downtown... Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: TheArtist on February 13, 2007, 04:57:27 pm There are many things that Tulsa could have that would make the city better and more attractive, like having a natatorium for instance. I believe a world class natatorium was actually proposed at one time for downtown. There are other types of sports and arts facilities that would be nice for Tulsa to have. Wouldn't there be great synergies through having those things on or next to the college campus so that the college could use them and thus offer those athletic programs as well? Basically getting more bang for your buck. How about a joint city and college soccer stadium and fields as another example? If you would like the city to have a soccer stadium and your college would benefit from being able to offer a great soccer program, you could help both and it would cost a lot less than doing them seperately.
I think this type of thing shows some of the great opportunities that having a college in a downtown can bring and that we haven't been able to consider until now. Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: AVERAGE JOE on February 13, 2007, 05:49:23 pm quote: Awww, didn't know you cared. [:I] xoxoxo, JOE Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: USRufnex on February 14, 2007, 12:35:28 am quote:OMG? Did someone mention soccer?!? Ruh-roh! http://www.gocreighton.com/sports/common/photo_gallery.asp?contentID=0&sportID=7§ionID=79# Creighton University's Morrison Stadium and the Omaha skyline (http://www.gocreighton.com/library/images/06Morrison6_L.jpg)(http://www.gocreighton.com/library/images/04MorrisonStadium_L.jpg) (http://www.gocreighton.com/library/images/MSOCGrandstand_L.jpg)(http://www.gocreighton.com/library/images/04csfw15_L.jpg) But I forgot... this would create a HUGE HOLE and mark the death of downtown Tulsa...... no, I'm not bitter..... no, not me..... BWAAAAH... HAH-HAH-HAH-HA-HA!!! [}:)] Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: AVERAGE JOE on February 14, 2007, 08:30:37 am Ruf, admitting the problem is the first step toward recovery. [:D]
That's a nice facility, btw. Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: TheArtist on February 14, 2007, 08:31:30 am Many people consider within the IDL to be downtown. I consider a lot of the things around it to be downtown as well, including the college. I would prefer a soccer stadium not be within the IDL, but rather it be outside the IDL by the college. The photo you show of Omaha's stadium seems to show something similar. The soccer stadium is in a less developed area just to the other side of the highway from their downtown.
Not saying a soccer stadium wouldn't work within the IDL at all, just would like to have it as close to the college as possible so that it could be considered both as part of their campus and as part of downtown. Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: RecycleMichael on February 14, 2007, 09:01:49 am quote: If they made it a little more square, we could play baseball there. Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: rwarn17588 on February 14, 2007, 10:51:22 am And if not, a soccer stadium would still be a good place to take a nap. [;)]
Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: deinstein on February 14, 2007, 05:51:49 pm quote: [}:)] No they don't. Or even close. OCU is a 3rd tier law school as well says the U.S. News. Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: deinstein on February 14, 2007, 06:08:52 pm If my opinion matters...I decided to go to OSU-Tulsa over UNC-Chapel Hill and OU-Norman...which are 27th and 107th nationally.
My reason...I like living in the Cherry Street area for college. I wanted to stay in state because I'm paying for school and Tulsa is far and away the best city in this state. It's absolutely the cheapest place you can live for a person in my situation. And finally, my degree isn't an OSU-Tulsa degree...it's an Oklahoma State University degree and is not different than the people who have to live in miserable Stillwater. Things that could be fixed... -More majors at OSU-Tulsa. It boggles my mind they don't have subject areas like Public Policy, Urban Planning, etc. in such an urban environment. -Make it a four-year college. I would have been there from the start, but the only option I had for my financial situation (Being a single, independent college kid paying on his own) was Tulsa Community College. -Get rid off I-244 north of downtown. Call me crazy, I could care less. Invest in Greenwood and the Brady area. Fill in the barren land (For example the area all around Black Wall Street). Make the area an intellectual hub, it's very possible. Trust me, Tulsa is more appealing than Stillwater... -Who cares about sports? Seriously. Worry about the academics, sports will come when they come. Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: TheArtist on February 14, 2007, 06:41:49 pm My prediction... Within my lifetime, more students will be going to OSU Tulsa than to Stillwater.
Why they keep shoveling more and more money into OSU Stillwater and not using it at OSU Tulsa is beyond me. Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: deinstein on February 14, 2007, 07:12:58 pm quote: If they did what we all want them to do, this could happen within a decade or two. Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: deinstein on February 14, 2007, 07:13:34 pm Oh yeah, please get rid of the metal green roof.
[}:)] Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: USRufnex on February 15, 2007, 12:01:35 pm quote: Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: deinstein on February 15, 2007, 03:24:58 pm I'm just laughing at the fact someone is trying to put it on the level of a Berklee, NYU, etc.
That's all. It's a fine discussion, but let's stay within reason and not over-exaggerate. Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: USRufnex on February 18, 2007, 03:17:35 pm quote: http://www.osu-tulsa.okstate.edu/future/vision.asp quote: If Tulsa were ahead of the curve, this should have been accomplished sometime back in the 90's. Instead, thousands of potential students like deinstein over the years have had to find other options in other cities... I met some great, creative people in Tulsa since moving back here a few months ago... problem is, far too many of them went back to their respective cities after Christmas/New Year's... [:O] In the spring of 2002, I was looking for a reason to stay in Tulsa... drove downtown so I could see what a $35K downtown condo looked like, then got off at the wrong exit and ended up parking and walking around the East Village/East End... the reality of that area didn't match the name... most Tulsans wouldn't even know it as "Blue Dome"... if I had to name it, it would have been the "KOTV/Adult Theater district"?!?... back in 2002 I didn't walk that area for long... got back in the car and drove around for awhile... if a suitable option could have been found for me at OSU-Tulsa, I probably woulda stayed... Bottom line: TU, ORU, TCC and those state school extension campuses didn't hold a candle to what I had available to me down the turnpike at OCU, UCO and OU... so I ended up moving down to OKC for a few months, then decided to move back to Chicago... Smaller cities than Tulsa have these options... Wichita, Kansas has Wichita State (over 15,000 students)... Boise, Idaho has Boise State (enrollment 18,448)... Little Rock has Univ of Ark-Little Rock (over 11,000 students)... even Springfield, MO has Missouri State (about 20,000 students... and the Univ of Central Oklahoma in Edmond/OKC has over 19,000 students... Tulsa has TU... a school with a massive endowment that I assume wants to cast itself as a "Harvard of the southwest." The school has 4100 students, only 2800 are undergrads... the smallest number of undergrads for a school that still plays Div I college football... I think OSU-Tulsa has a very important part to play in the revitalization of downtown Tulsa... there's a void in the arts... OSU-Stillwater can continue to offer marching band and teacher degree programs while OSU-Tulsa could offer masters and stronger performance programs due to its proximity to downtown Tulsa... add a state high school for the arts and you've got something to fill much of that void... if you did that, it might make a certain "Mr. K" a lot happier about his downtown Tulsa portfolio... [;)] Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: TheArtist on February 18, 2007, 04:53:12 pm 10 years ago, heck I wish all this and more had been around 20 years ago when I was starting college lol. But it wasn't, so here we are. However this does point out just a fraction of the time and educational infrastructure that desperately needs to be made up for in Tulsa.
I hear that OSU is getting a new president. Hopefully he will be made aware of OSU Tulsas needs and the draw that having a great campus near a major metropolitan city can have for his university. Frankly I hope he has the vision to see, or will be convinced of, the writing on the wall and focus more on growing OSU Tulsa than on OSU Stillwater. If OSU Tulsa becomes the larger campus, as I think it will, then now is the time to stop spending large and limited funds expanding the Stillwater campus, for in the future whatever is built there now will be seen as having been a regrettable mistake. Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: deinstein on February 19, 2007, 12:03:42 am Anyone know the candidates for the OSU President gig yet? I'd be interested on researching them.
Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: TStheThird on February 19, 2007, 10:42:46 am I doubt that OSU will halt plans at their flagship campus in Stillwater to grow the campus in Tulsa. They will grow each campus to compliment, not compete.
Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: cannon_fodder on February 19, 2007, 11:02:00 am Compliment would be nice, but currently the Tulsa campus is subordinate to Stillwater. If you want a degree, you most often have to bus to Stillwater to get some or many of the classes (depending on the degree).
I hope it grows as they plan AND they find ways to make it feel like a real college instead of an extension of one. (if that makes sense). Maybe truck in some pissed off hippies or zealots every now and then for protests/telling students why they are going to hell. :) Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: USRufnex on February 20, 2007, 12:11:15 pm That's the issue, here. On the one hand, I wish Tulsa had a OU-Tulsa & OSU-Tulsa using the same downtown campus, much like Indiana Univ-Purdue Univ-Indianapolis (IUPUI plays NCAA basketball in ORU's conference)... IUPUI is just east of downtown Indy...
As noted before (by me), I think a good full-fledged university to compliment OSU-Stillwater should contain a strong arts program-- after all, OSU has traditionally been an agriculture school (Pistol Pete ain't really a cowboy at heart; he's an Aggie)... As for athletics, I'm pretty sure OSU is already building a soccer/track&field stadium and has a nationally ranked women's socer team (coached by a Bishop Kelley grad, if memory serves). But Tulsa doesn't have a college playing at either the NAIA or NCAA Division II level... think about the prospects of sports fans from NEO, UCO, SEOSU, ECSU, SWOSU, Cameron or NAIA teams at SNU, Oklahoma Christian, USAO, OCU, and OBU going to downtown Tulsa for games, probably basketball to begin with; any stadium facilities would be at least a decade away (unless T Boone Pickens decides otherwise...) quote: A soccer stadium at OSU-Tulsa is an old argument; and one of the big issues I had with the criticisms of Nov 2005's East Village (40 acres of housing/retail, 20 acres for a 20k stadium) was the carping done--- this magical IDL dividing line existed, yet The Village at Central Park is outside this line; there's a big box Home Depot INSIDE the IDL... the site is still a good site for any arena/stadium/ballpark/ampitheatre, yet when Global's original proposal came around, I heard all this talk of "move it a few blocks this way" or "no... a little to the right," "move it ANYWHERE outside the IDL" or "OSU-Tulsa would be PERFECT"... the only way OSU-Tulsa would be the answer is if T. Boone Pickens has his checkbook out... Otherwise, OSU-Tulsa is an inferior downtown location for a sports stadium; if the Drillers have no interest in playing there, why would it interest MLS? TU's men's soccer team rarely draws over a thousand fans... and Indy's minor league ballpark is outside the CBD; the RCA Dome and NBA arena are both inside that magic dividing line... [8D] You know, I wish Union HS would have done a 20k football/soccer stadium that MLS coulda partnered with, but instead we're stuck with the UMAC to compete with Expo and the Reynolds Center... oh, and that BIG arena downtown... My hopes these days are pinned on a smaller Skelly Stadium after they bulldoze the upper west stands and replace it with a huge 3 story press box... but attracting Major League Soccer to Tulsa that way has about as much chance of happening as Zinedine Zidane playing for my beloved Chicago Fire... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRWwmk-JjG8 Oh wait... what were we talking about? [;)] Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: deinstein on February 20, 2007, 01:40:53 pm It's fairly obvious the IDL is one of the biggest problems. You either need to get rid of it on the North or East side. I say get rid of it on the North for OSU-Tulsa.
Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: TheArtist on February 20, 2007, 08:57:15 pm quote: I have heard the "get rid of the IDL" mantra from several posters. But I have been to larger cities where highways cut right through things, aka Dallas for instance, and there is really no disruption of growth and connectivity. There are lots of things on one side, lots of things on the other, and plenty of people zipping back and forth over and under the highways to either side. So it cant be the highways fault that there is a lack of growth and connectivity, its the lack of growth in that part of Tulsa which creates the lack of connectivity. Sometimes the highway is actually a nice feature to live next to because it creates room for a vista, otherwise your looking out your higrise apartment into another highrise right next door. Parks, cemetaries, canals, parking garages, parking lots, soccer fields and stadium, and all kinds of other things can act in the same way. Dead space or breathing room, your perspective would depend on how much growth and density you have. I would rather see any money, that would be spent on getting rid of a highway, used to build something that would make it worth your while to get to the other side for,,,, like a larger college. Oh, and I bet that highway will not be any barrier at all in keeping those students living on campus away from the clubs in the Blue Dome district. [;)] Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: deinstein on February 20, 2007, 10:22:14 pm Dallas is a wasteland, in my opinion.
I'm talking about more progressive development like Portland, OR...who took down a freeway blocking downtown and the river. Which is no different than I-244 blocking OSU-Tulsa. In my opinion... Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: cannon_fodder on February 21, 2007, 08:56:24 am Hey, while we are at it lets build a giant dome over the city that keeps the temperature at 72F year round.
Where would we move the highway to? Something has to be bulldozed - who's neighborhood do we destroy so OSU-Tulsa can have a nice view of downtown? Who is going to pay the hundreds of millions of dollars to move a perfectly good road? No way federal funding would help with this. I'd also like to see more hills in Tulsa for some landscaping. We need to bulldoze the new development in the South and put in some hills. Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: TheArtist on February 21, 2007, 07:58:06 pm Tulsans donate 15 million to OU..... to the Norman campus. [B)]
http://www.tulsaworld.com/BreakingNewsStory.asp?ID=070221_Br_abreakOUdon Why don't they just move to Norman if they don't give a crap about Tulsa. Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: deinstein on February 22, 2007, 12:37:36 am You don't move the highway. You simply don't need one to the North and you can make the neighborhood more lively by connecting both sides. By doing this you open up the area around 'Black Wall Street' to OSU-Tulsa development. You know...in those open fields and in empty warehouses.
Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: sgrizzle on February 22, 2007, 07:52:55 am quote: Swing and a miss. Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: cannon_fodder on February 22, 2007, 09:30:33 am Just to be perfectly clear here, you want to demolish 6 to 8 lanes of elevated interstate highway along with the entrance/exit points associated with them and re-route that traffic around down town on the remaining 6 lanes to the South via the 4 lanes of Hwy 75 North?
That would mean... all traffic from 51, 75, I-44, 11/Osage Nation, and 412 would funnel on 6 lanes of traffic. It would also mean the nearest on ramp for several areas of downtown would be moved a mile or so further away. We would also have to double the lanes turning from I-244 to 75, from 75 to 51/64, from 51/64 back to 244, and from 412 to I-244... since that part of the loop would be the only choice. That's alot of new ramps to build as we tear out 6 to 8 lanes of elevated highway, the on ramps, and existing connections to the freeways. Perhaps it would have been wise to put OSU Tulsa inside the loop to start with? Anyway, moving a huge chunk of highway isnt going to happen. Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: deinstein on February 22, 2007, 03:12:38 pm Why cater to the automobile?
All you would take away are the the Cincinnati and Detroit downtown exits. Which is really one exit considering they are one way streets. And yes, make them use the Highway 75 east section of the IDL instead... You don't need highways on all four side of downtown. Not in the city at all... Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: deinstein on February 22, 2007, 03:14:14 pm And I know it's not going to happen, people here love their extra highways. We'll be the last city to think progressively about New Urbanism and great public transportation as a whole.
Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: USRufnex on February 22, 2007, 04:45:18 pm We're probably only talking about a half mile stretch of craptastic 8-laned by-pass anyway... from Cincinnatti/Detroit to the exit for hwy 75?
It'd be nice to see a study on traffic patters there... I rarely see much traffic on I-244 in general... Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: AVERAGE JOE on February 22, 2007, 10:25:56 pm quote: I'm with deinstein on this one. The north leg of the IDL can go. I've thought that for years. Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: MichaelC on February 27, 2007, 01:09:01 pm From Tulsa World (http://"http://www.tulsaworld.com/NewsStory.asp?ID=070227_Ne_A11_OSUTu6996")
quote: Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: deinstein on February 27, 2007, 02:00:54 pm That's great news.
Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: TheArtist on February 27, 2007, 09:55:09 pm I don't know, sounds like there are still plenty of ifs and buts that could derail any start soon. I also have to point out an "I told ya so" on the "they want housing to be within eyesight of the rest of the campus" comment.
This comment is an especially troubling tea leaf. "We want to be at a price point that is attractive and reasonable to students," but campus leaders do not know whether they can do that and still provide all the amenities students said they want, Trennepohl said. Thats not the kind of thing that people who are excited and actively searching for creative solutions would say. Instead it sounds like the set up for an excuse. Not saying the excuse may not be legitimate if they "do not want to subsidize" the housing. The question will have to be answered,,, Will the students pay to stay at the campus housing versus other very cheap housing in the immediate area? If the campus housing is nice it will cost more. Will living on campus in more expensive housing be more desirable than living nearby in cheaper, not as expensive housing? Do you go cheap with the campus housing to compete with cheap nearby housing? Or is it your trying to build nice housing to compete with the "trendy" stuff downtown? The "dont want to be left subsidizing" comment is veeeery interesting. April 26th will tell. Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: osupokie on May 30, 2007, 09:09:16 pm OSU-T is an excellent start for downtown, but it is going nowhere rather quickly. There is such a plan as 20,000 students by 2020 which will never happen. More like 5 to 10,000. What should happen is that TCC and OSU-T should combine campuses, funding, and faculty. This would eliminate duplicate personel and degrees. Slowly closing wasted TCC campuses and building up OSU-T would be a huge benefit for Tulsa. Tulsa would have a MAJOR university in the area with 20,000 students! TCC could keep a campus going just for students who wish to get an associates degree.
Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: sgrizzle on May 30, 2007, 09:53:39 pm quote: TCC is a COMMUNITY college. They have 4 regional campuses for a reason, to educate the masses. The includes associate degrees, certification programs, continuing education, etc. Other than a few courses, OSU and TCC do not really overlap that much. NSU works cooperatively with TCC and graduates hundreds in Broken Arrow. Plenty of cities have community colleges and universities operating in parallel and Tulsa can easily do the same. OSU has been dragging it's feet on new construction like the student housing while many times scapegoating TCC. There has been mention of some legislation that will help OSU Tulsa but that is not the only thing stopping OSU from expanding. OSU is not desperate to become the #1 supplier of "freshman comp" classes in Tulsa so they have little to worry about. Keep in mind that OSU in Stillwater has a ton of students from Tulsa, many of which started at TCC. Teaching that same student base in Tulsa is a no-brainer. Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: cannon_fodder on May 31, 2007, 08:25:44 am So you're moving to OKC because of TCC? I'm so confused. I was under the impression that TCC does their job well, serving as a JuCo for the uneducated and poor masses. Its no Harvard, but it is also damn near free.
Does this mean I don't have to support the Tulsa Roughnecks anymore? Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: TheArtist on May 31, 2007, 03:57:23 pm Sounds like TCC and OSU are starting to cooperate more and more. This from the OSU Tulsa/ TCC website
" Tulsa Community College and Oklahoma State University-Tulsa are working together for Tulsa. This partnership enables students to earn a bachelor's degree while staying close to home. Students can complete freshman and sophomore courses from TCC then take junior and senior courses at OSU-Tulsa. TCC and OSU-Tulsa students have a lot in common. Many work and have families. Many others are recent high school graduates. The TCC/OSU-Tulsa connection gives students the "home advantage". Students can stay at home near family and work while they earn an OSU degree. TCC and OSU-Tulsa help students make a seamless transition between institutions through academic planning, joint scholarships and shared knowledge. To make advising and enrollment easier, TCC has advising staff housed at OSU-Tulsa. TCC representatives provide advising and counseling as well as admissions and enrollment information. Students can complete admission applications and registration for TCC classes. Some TCC classes are even offered on the OSU-Tulsa campus. Both TCC and OSU-Tulsa are centrally located and have flexible schedules. OSU-Tulsa is minutes from home near downtown, just off I-244 and Highway 75. TCC has four campuses throughout the city - Metro, Northeast, Southeast, and West. Both schools offer a variety of night, weekend and distance learning courses to accommodate your schedule. Joint Scholarships TCC and OSU-Tulsa offer joint scholarships that make it easier to afford four years of college. The TCC/OSU-Tulsa Scholarship Program provides financial assistance to incoming TCC students who plan to transfer to OSU-Tulsa to earn a bachelor's degree. For more information, call TCC at 595-7155 or OSU-Tulsa at 594-8355. " It would be interesting to figure out how you could psychologically connect OSU Tulsa and TCC metro to be in effect part of one campus or related. If there was student housing on OSU Tulsas property, first year students could easily bike or shuttle to TCC metro. Even having TCCs banners and logo half the TCC logo and half the OSU logo could create the feeling that you are going to a place that is part of one over all school. Just like Union has a middle school and high school that are different campuses but are the same school. TCC OSU metro could be the freshmen sophomore campus and, OSU Tulsa would be the Senior/graduate campus. A TCC OSU metro campus hybrid could be used by OSU Tulsa in promotion and advertising as basically part of its own campus and class/degree offerings. Oooor better yet OSU Tulsa and TCC could some day merge and become the Tulsa City University. Accepting easy tranfer of class credits from Stillwater, its satellite campus. [:P] Title: College for Downtown Tulsa. Post by: USRufnex on May 31, 2007, 10:34:39 pm quote:I deleted my previous post because it implied I was moving after barely being back here in Tulsa for six months. No, the issue here is that a few years down the road moving to OKC or elsewhere could be the case for me... AGAIN. [B)] It's especially frustrating when you like your current job and wouldn't want to move elsewhere... this happens to people alot in Tulsa... a city that seems to serve as a revolving door for far too many talented people... needlessly, in my opinion... Wichita has Wichita State... OKC has UCO and OU... even Springfield, MO has Missouri State... I just have never understood the $$$ Tulsa has showered on a junior college... it doesn't make sense... it's never made sense... how many community colleges have their own Performing Arts Center? However, I do take exception to your statement that TCC serves "the uneducated and poor masses." Community colleges serve everyone. If you want to take a class here or there and don't feel like pissing your money away paying TU or ORU private school tuition for coursework, TCC's there for you... As far as supporting efforts to secure a team from the ONLY professional major league organization that has consistently given Tulsa the time of day... a league that has off-and-on over the past decade actively recruited Tulsa to join... I'll support any efforts for Major League Soccer in Tulsa no matter where I live... because it was great for Tulsa the last time we had it, and when I drive around east Tulsa these days, I see a community MORE likely to support high level professional soccer than the one I remember that embraced the Roughnecks back in the late 70s and early 80s... And I may from time to time, remind Tulsans of how close we've been to getting a team in MLS... from the April 12, 2003 New York Times (Jack Bell article)... quote: I have always been curious about what political mountains were moved to get IUPUI (Indiana Univ-Purdue Univ-Indianapolis) to become what it is today... it'd be a good model (near downtown Indy) for Tulsa to look at for what OSU-Tulsa could become... |