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Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Hometown on June 22, 2007, 11:56:49 am Ms. Mayor, I’m a fan and I’d vote for you again but you are wrong about taking City Hall away from Civic Center. You are talking about the end of civic center.
You base your whole argument on savings but what you haven’t factored in is what you are about to throw away: A huge investment in a major public facility – Civic Center. To determine the dollar amount of what you are throwing away you would have to calculate the cost of assembling a large tract of land in downtown Tulsa and construction of six major public buildings. Let’s face it, Tulsa wouldn’t have a hope and a prayer of creating a civic center today because we don’t have the resources that my parent’s generation enjoyed. The new digs you want would be well suited for the city’s back offices but frankly it is not an appropriate structure for a public building. There are “no” public spaces there. The security is sadly lacking. There is no “nexus” of people doing government work in the area. I’ll grant you, it’s pretty, new and shiny, but that isn’t enough. Ms. Mayor, not being from Tulsa probably diminishes your sense of ownership in the investments made by prior generations of Tulsans. I was here and I’m very unhappy about what you are doing. Can’t you just gussy up the old place and do your bit for Tulsa’s history? I’m one of your troops, Ms. Mayor, but you are dead wrong on this issue. Let me help save your legacy. You are about to be tagged, “The Mayor that Destroyed Civic Center.” Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Wrinkle on June 22, 2007, 12:19:26 pm Well said and right on!
Every Tulsan should be outraged. This is a major ideallogical delusion. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Conan71 on June 22, 2007, 12:31:33 pm (http://www.excellent-romantic-vacations.com/images/airline%20ticket.jpg)
+ (http://www.thebestlinks.com/images/thumb/7/71/250px-Airliner.airjamaica.a340.arp.750pix.jpg) = (http://www.world-guides.com/images/san_francisco/san_francisco_cable_car2.jpg) "Buh-bye" Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: ttownclown on June 22, 2007, 01:05:58 pm Civic Center = Hot concrete wasteland
Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: sgrizzle on June 22, 2007, 01:21:39 pm Just because it's a huge investment doesn't mean we should keep it. If you think it's so valuable, go make them an offer.
Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: cannon_fodder on June 22, 2007, 02:07:00 pm I am still reserved on the move: I like the money savings, I understand the convenience of having all services in one location, and I think it MIGHT have a positive impact on office space downtown. However, I also fear the old city hall will just sit empty along with the other buildings we are abandoning and/or the city will find uses for them and just add space instead of replace it, or that the savings will not materialize, etc.
The civic center or forum is indeed a wasteland. It is about as inviting as the dry bed of the Arkansas River in August but instead of rotting fish add bums. I think it would have been really nice if done well (or kept up to date). But currently, it stands as a loser. Find a firm use/tenant for the old city hall, then I'll bite. Otherwise, I think I'm a no. I cannot buy a new house and move in until I sell my old one, neither should my government. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Steve on June 22, 2007, 02:10:51 pm I think Hometown makes some very valid points. The current civic center complex brings together the city hall, county courthouse, city convention center & library, all joined by an open plaza. The present state of this complex is sad, but we only have to look into a mirror to find someone to blame. Prior to construction of this complex in the early 1960's, all of Tulsa's government offices were small and scattered throughout downtown. This complex, Tulsa's first and only true "civic center," brought everything together in a convenient place. Its current state of disrepair is solely the fault of Tulsa's elected officials and citizens over the past 20+ years. Properly restored and maintained, I think the current civic center complex would be just fine and a great architectural record of mid-twentieth century Tulsa.
I guess it is just the American Way to build nice public facilities with public funds, trash and neglect them over the years, and then sell them off or raze them for something new. I can see it all now. 50 years from now, Tulsa leaders and "young professionals" will be clamoring for the demolition of that ugly, rusty hulk, once called the BOK arena built in the ancient days of 2007. They will want to knock that neglected, rusty piece of junk down and replace it with a stucco replica of the Roman Coliseum. To the tune of about $1 billion in public funds, I am sure. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Conan71 on June 22, 2007, 03:06:50 pm Steve,
Why does any of this nor your prediction of the future of the BOK center surprise me? Anything maintained by the city is ugly and falling apart.[xx(] We have never had a history of maintaining or improving upon what we have before we go on to our next big to-be-negleted-in-the-future project. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Steve on June 22, 2007, 03:24:48 pm quote: Maybe it is just human nature to neglect the past and build new monuments to ourselves. In any event, I agree with Hometown's original post. I think that given the cost of purchasing the newer building and the cost of the relocations, the City could restore the present Civic Center complex and public areas to their former intent and beauty, perhaps making them even better in the process, and preserve a historic piece of Tulsa's recent past. Just my opinion. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Markk on June 23, 2007, 01:19:32 pm quote: Aside from being in abysmal shape, the Civic Center is just an ugly, cement wasteland that offers passerbys no incentive to stop, relax, or spend money on the local economy. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Markk on June 23, 2007, 01:21:33 pm quote: I AM talking about the Civic Center; not to be confused with the equally unappealing surface lots around downtown (particularly around TCC and FBC). It's easy to confuse them all. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Double A on June 24, 2007, 09:55:37 am Hometown is dead right on this one, not to mention that consolidating all city services in one building is just plain stupid in the post 9/11 era.
Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: TheArtist on June 24, 2007, 11:57:44 am Just so I know, what does the city hall have to do with the civic center? ( http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:civic+center&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title ) And why is it more important that they be next to each other than city offices? Aren't there other things that can be just as appropriate to be in a civic center? I think the Civic Center and the City Hall can be seen as seperate entities, both in need of work.
I actually like the architecture of the old city hall. I think it is a large and very prominent example of a time in history. Some say it is not a very good example, that I can't really argue with until someone shows me better similar ones. It may be that it could be "enhanced". However this does bring up the fact that the building is going to need big money to be repaired and updated. Frankly the whole plaza needs to be cleaned up and completely remodeled, that includes the buildings around it like the courthouse and library. But here again, this is going to cost big money on top of what refurbishing city hall would require. I would rather not leave things as they are, run down and ugly, and just fixing the City Hall building won't do it if its sitting in the middle of butt ugly. In other words, its gonna take some serious money to get things up to snuff. Perhaps we should give voters several options. 1. Just Move city hall and don't fix the civic center. 2. Stay and fix the old City Hall and the other city buildings, and dont fix the Civic Center 3. Stay fix the old city hall, other buildings and redo the Civic Center. Our civic center certainly does not stack up to how other civic centers look in similar or larger sized cities. If your going to have a civic center do it right and make it a real, usable and inviting area, whether its with or without a City Hall as part of it. http://governing.typepad.com/13thfloor/2005/11/is_this_the_cit.html Seattle Civic Center and City Hall (http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/7065/civiccenterseattletb8.jpg) Shot at 2007-06-24 Denver Civic Center (http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/893/denverciviccenterjl5.jpg) Shot at 2007-06-24 Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Wilbur on June 24, 2007, 01:10:48 pm You can't tell me they couldn't find an independent consultant to come in and make an independent recommendation!
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070624_1_A1_spanc31224 They only used someone who stands to make a ton of money off the move. That is not independent. It certainly does not bode well for the Mayor, who decided her first day in office that City Hall was moving. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: ifsandbuts on June 24, 2007, 02:08:02 pm "...Mayor, who decided her first day in office that City Hall was moving."
That's a bad thing? I think an awful lot of people walk into that building for the first time and think City Hall should be moved. Thank goodness she wasn't yet another elected official who walked into a ridiculously ugly, non-functional, poorly planned, depresssing, unhealthy, unwelcoming building and just assumed that was all Tulsa deserved or was capable of. I've said this before and will say it again: Have any of you who are defending the current City Hall actually spent any amount of time there? I have, literally, NEVER seen a City Hall as bad as Tulsa's, in any size community I have ever been in. It was an ugly, non-functional piece of crap building when it was built -- renovation ain't gonna fix that. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Wilbur on June 24, 2007, 02:14:32 pm quote: I actually have no problem with the move. I don't believe you bring people on board with your ideas by, in this case, using a non-independent consultant. Using one who is truly independent eliminates people who may question the consultant. I just find moving city hall so two faced on the part of the city. How long have you heard the city is broke, there is no wiggle room in the budget and no money available for employee pay raises. Yet we seem to have found $62,000,000+ in wiggle room for a new building. Funny how there is no money until you find something you want to buy, then there seems to be plenty. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: TheArtist on June 24, 2007, 04:24:20 pm quote: What are you talking about? The city spends money every month for a whole bunch of buildings, some of these buildings are going to need expensive repairs and updating, the City Hall for one. Those repairs and updating are going to cost money. From what I gather the city doesnt even own some of the buildings it uses and pays to use each month. So rather than paying monthly for several buildings and to spend money fixing the old ones they are getting a new one with those funds, and hopefully saving even more money from being together in one spot. You have an old run down house, your paying 800dollars a month mortgage or rent on. You find out its gonna cost 20,000 dollars to repair the roof, plus the house has mold damage lol. You are barely able to afford to pay the other bills, gas, electric, cable, (roads, school, police) You find that there is a new house down the street that costs 750 a month to buy and its more energy efficient. Is it better to stay in the old house or go for the new one? Or do you say, "How can we find the money to pay for it when we can barely afford to pay the bills in this old one?" How could you afford not to if you would be saving money by purchasing the new one? Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Hometown on June 24, 2007, 06:38:10 pm The Mayor that Destroyed Civic Center
Once upon a time in a fabled emerald city known to one and all as the oil capital of the world, citizens and leaders joined together to create a great public space for a great Modern city named Tulsa. Magnificent buildings for the people clustered around a grand central plaza where the citizens of Tulsa always knew they would be welcomed. In gleaming Modern buildings that reflected the optimism of the time, the people of Tulsa could come to one place and find their county court, the city hall, their municipal courts and police headquarters. The citizens could conduct business with the city and enjoy an afternoon program at the city library or dash across the street to do business at the federal courts and the post office. Small business owners enjoyed the convenience of having the state building close by. And at the center of it all stood a grand plaza, a space for the people to a take break during jury duty, to linger on a warm spring day with a brown bag lunch, enjoy a smoke, or just watch people as they go about their business with the government. It is also a space that has seen the people of Tulsa gather to protest, to light a candle and say a prayer that our government will do the right thing. Before the Destruction (http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t174/9lalo9/Civic%20Center/IM000976.jpg) (http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t174/9lalo9/Civic%20Center/IM000979.jpg) (http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t174/9lalo9/Civic%20Center/IM000980.jpg) (http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t174/9lalo9/Civic%20Center/IM000981.jpg) (http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t174/9lalo9/Civic%20Center/IM000992.jpg) (http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t174/9lalo9/Civic%20Center/IM001006.jpg) (http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t174/9lalo9/Civic%20Center/IM001015.jpg) (http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t174/9lalo9/Civic%20Center/IM001007.jpg) (http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t174/9lalo9/Civic%20Center/IM000987.jpg) Mayor Godzilla Does Her Thing Then one day the mayor of Tulsa, who up until then had been a fine new mayor, decided that the city had to purchase shiny, new corporate headquarters. She wanted a glass and chrome kind of place. The mayor didn’t want to spend the money it would take to maintain Tulsa’s investment in civic center. She wanted to abandon the old digs and sell the old Modern city hall to a hotel developer. She knew she was talking about the end of Civic Center. In a dreamlike sequence, the Mayor became a horrible Godzilla creature dancing a hideous dance of destruction, waving her awful tail and leveling the great buildings we had inherited from our fathers. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: sportyart on June 24, 2007, 06:38:19 pm This is nothing new, this will be our fourth new city hall. Speaking for the younger generation....YES PLEASE MOVE!!! I avoid civic center at all costs. I say move city hall, move the courthouse and move the library. Civic center is old, rundown, and needs extensive and expensive work to be done. The I think is the best move and the best thing to show off to other cities, that we reduce, reuse, recycle and close the loop. The construction of the building itself cost more then what the city is buying it for, this a true value when the cost of building a new building would cost huge numbers. And it’s not like the construction of a new civic center is not possible around the new city hall.
If people are worried about renting out space, why not move the county court/offices into the building as well. Kill two sick birds with one stone. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: TheArtist on June 24, 2007, 09:56:41 pm Now I really love the architecture of the Library. I would love to see a new one, but the old building should definitely be protected, it very much represents its time and a particular style. Does need some tlc, some retro" updating to make it fresh and even trendy and cool could easily be done and I just wish people could imagine that and do more of it. However that plaza........ look at that third pic, there is cement, brick, some sort of hexagonal stuff, etc. its a horrid mess. Not to mention no greenery or working fountains etc.
The worst thing you can do to a building, or plaza, that is "out of date" is try to mix in the prevailing style of the moment. It ends up looking like a jumbled mess. Either bring it back to the way it was or add to it with some contemporary, retro elements of its own style. The 50s style is back in now to stay as a classic style. If it wasnt perfect when it was built, rather than totally scrap it, enhance it and make it better but with a similar style. I still think city hall should move though lol. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: swake on June 25, 2007, 06:59:50 am I understand the need for a new library, but it is a good building and would make for instance a good modern art museum. That is the one building in the whole complex that should be saved.
Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: sgrizzle on June 25, 2007, 07:11:54 am I see different things in the pictures. I see multiple fountains that don't work, motor barricades put up because the plaza is a security risk and what looks like a guy peeing off of the gathering area by the library.
I agree that the library is a possible keeper as a reused building, but the library needs to move. The space is far too limited in that building. Plus they don't get as many patrons as they should because people don't like parking under the civic plaza at night. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: waterboy on June 25, 2007, 08:02:58 am I love the Library building. It should be saved and reused possibly as a museum.
The plaza is incredibly hot during the summer making it practically uninhabitable for all but transients and those who have to be there. I agree that it represents an age, a period of time when we all thought George Jetson's lifestyle would be our future. By saving the library and part of the plaza we can save some of that fantasy. But the municipal building is nothing special. We have to be open to change. Keep re-formulating our city identity. Its not the oil capitol anymore and George Jetson's vision is cartoonish. I keep remembering the beautiful historic hotel in NYC that was destroyed for progress. Was it the Vanderbilt? Gorgeous Victorian building. It was done without much thought to develop the Twin Towers. And life goes on. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: RecycleMichael on June 25, 2007, 09:25:14 am I want to push the button that blows up city hall.
I would be willing to buy lottery tickets for the chance. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Conan71 on June 25, 2007, 09:52:01 am A lot of people voted for Mayor Taylor because they wanted a "CEO" to run the city.
She operates it just like a corporate CEO, very opaque what is happening at the top, and now she wants a shiny new HQ building. Personally, with the savings involved and if it gets rid of our embarrasing City Hall, I'm all for it. I did hear something on the radio this morning that there may be consideration to "lease" the new city hall or maybe I heard wrong. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: NCTulsan on June 25, 2007, 10:15:01 am The (1) concept of a "civic center" and (2) the appearance of Tulsa's current civic center are two different issues here. I totally agree with Hometown on the concept of having a civic center which brings together various levels of government and services to one sub-region of downtown. I find it very interesting that in this forum of allegedly enlightened Tulsans, there has been very little talk of what could be done to improve the appearance of our Civic Center.
Personally I would like to see the plaza deck removed and continue 5th Street and Elwood Avenue through the superblock with limited on-street parking that could be closed-off during potential special events. The lower levels of the police building and City Hall could be re-designed to address the lower level as their new "front doors". And landscaping would soften the overall appearance. To move City Hall to a whole other part of downtown may save money, but it just doesn't feel right for a public office building. Nor does the architecture of the building reflect good public architecture .... it's corporate architecture. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Hometown on June 25, 2007, 12:01:57 pm Okay I think these buildings have merit but I’m obviously not going to change a lot of minds today. What I will point out is the bric-a-brac that people tore off of their Victorians trying to give them a smooth Modern look. With time it was the bric-a-brac that people came to love in Victorians. Our tastes will change and we will once more find Modern attractive. Probably long after Tulsa has torn down most of her Modern buildings. This is a cycle that happens over and over. And we have a very bad record in this regard.
But in the meantime NCTulsan’s point about separating the esthetics of Modern buildings from an appreciation for a major urban facility like a civic center is very important. I’m not sure a lot of you love the Petroleum Exposition Building at the Fairgrounds but you certainly wouldn’t want to tear down the Fairgrounds because you don’t like that building. Tell me, where else can Tulsans congregate downtown? Short of roping off a street, there is nothing that compares to Civic Center. Because Tulsa has been led by people without the imagination to bring Civic Center to life with brown bag lunches, free concerts, open air art shows, or a weekly farmer’s market, doesn’t mean that we should throw away this enormous investment. Anyone out there that finds there are too many bums or disturbing homeless people in the Civic Center area just isn't cut out to live in a contemporary American city. The kind of White Bread environment you are seeking is strictly a suburban phenomenon and you are not going to be happy in any city. Now, I know Federal Buildings are built to withstand riots. The proposed City Hall certainly does not offer any security along those lines. Indeed, I doubt if you could get much of a crowd assembled outside the proposed City Hall. It has no public spaces. And I don’t know if the gamut of citizens that do business in government buildings is going to be welcomed in the corporate environment of that area. I doubt that the buttoned-up Type A crowd is going to take to just plain folks hanging around. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Conan71 on June 25, 2007, 12:17:38 pm quote: All of the above has been tried at one time or another, other than the Farmer's Market concept (at least I'm not aware of the FM concept). The first Mayfest was in the CC plaza. Obviously, it's not that great a place to congregate, otherwise, all of the above things would still happen at the CCP. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: waterboy on June 25, 2007, 12:48:23 pm quote: I went to the first couple of "Mayfests". Called Jubilee '73 or something equally clever. They were on main street. One of them back in the early ninenties was on the CC however and it worked just fine. Heard Jerry Jeff Walker along with a pretty good (but redneck) crowd. NC has a good idea with eliminating the plaza level. I just don't think the municipal building is anything special. However, the criticisms of the new building being more corporate in nature are certainly valid. No place to assemble or demonstrate either for that matter. But assuming we make a judgement that the entire plaza should be rehabbed instead of sold off, how could you pay for that? Increase taxes? Sell that to the public! Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: pfox on June 25, 2007, 01:01:20 pm From an urban design perspective, Tulsa's Civic Plaza is a typical example of late 50's/60's thinking on public architecture. Government center in Boston is another example that is almost universally derided as an urban planning and urban design disaster. Far from providing a democratic, pedestrian friendly gathering place, these plazas actually discourage free assembly.
From the brutalist architecture of the convention center, to the tilt up agregate walls of the police and municipal courts building, the civic plaza is a most unappealing place to sit, walk, or be. The library and the Francis Campbell Council building are it's most redeeming features, but the library is long outdated for functions of a modern library. City hall's public entrace is not on civic plaza as you'd expect, but below "ground" level in a dark, musty garage. The sloped sides of the planters prevent any resting or sitting, the fountain is empty because it leaks, and the county courthouse has so much mold in it, one of the judges who presides there considered filing suit recently. By the way, a large portion of our "paper" county records are kept in the basement of that building. If the Belvedere flooded because of the water table...you get the point. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Wrinkle on June 25, 2007, 01:39:42 pm I'm with Hometown on this one.
All the 'problems' with the existing facility can be managed, repaired or modified to be perfectly acceptable. The plaza is just space. And, the City currently treats it as such. There's been virtually no effort to make anything of it at all. In fact, it's been intentionally left to deteriorate to promote this move. We know what any space can become if laid into the hands of talented designers. Even I could do better than what is there now. It's where we place the emphasis. And, Kitty has her paws on a shinny new trinkette. Whatever the driving force is behind all this, it's wrong. It's being approached wrong, pushed wrong and concieved wrong. And, the building itself is virutally unsuitable for a City Hall function. How many 'public formations' at the doors to One Tech do you suppose the non-governmental entities who lease the remainder of the space will tolerate (along with their clients) before deciding a 'normal' location would be much better for them? Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: pfox on June 25, 2007, 04:49:01 pm Fyi...it is not uncommon for cities to either purchase or lease office space from the private sector...
I noticed a picture of Seattle's new city hall. A very nice facility indeed, but it only houses the mayor, the council, staff, city council room. Maybe 200-300 employees. The balance of the "office" city employees are housed in the former Key Tower, now called the Seattle Municipal Tower. It was not designed to be a municipal building, but it is now, and it works just fine. The city purchased the building in the late 90's or early 2000's. About 5000 people work in the 62 story building, some city employees, some in the private sector. (http://www.seattlemunicipaltower.com/images/elegance/homepage/home1.gif) Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Wilbur on June 25, 2007, 08:14:17 pm quote: Explain all those savings to me again. The building, remodel, moving fees, ..... will cost $67,200,000. Estimated savings is $15,000,000 over ten years. That sure looks like a loss of over $50,000,000 to me. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: sgrizzle on June 25, 2007, 09:37:11 pm quote: You also (supposedly) add $24,000 in deferred repairs and like 24,000 in something else. Net on their paperwork was a savings of like $1,000 in budget totals. Basically they made it seem like a wash for the first ten years, then a lot better after that. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Hometown on June 26, 2007, 07:02:30 am I don’t take to the way Taylor and the Tulsa World want to skip discussion and cut straight to the arm twisting phase of their campaign to privatize Civic Center. It makes me think there is a story behind the story that no one is telling us about.
And you may not like the concrete seats in front of City Hall but how would you like Hotel Security rousting you and telling you to move on because the plaza is for Hotel Guests only. Tell me how the diverse patchwork of people that do business at the County Court house are going to mesh with upscale hotel patrons. The answer is they won’t and I can tell you who would get the short end of the stick. Like there is only one spot available for development downtown. Give me a break. Their arguments don’t hold water. I would like to read the Tulsa World editorials that encouraged us to tear down our beautiful old movie palaces. I can imagine them now. “Progress, progress, progress.” Don’t get me wrong. I’m pro growth just not pro stupid. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: RecycleMichael on June 26, 2007, 07:08:22 am quote: I am just amateur stupid...how do you get paid for being stupid? I could be all-pro... Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Wrinkle on June 26, 2007, 08:11:31 am quote: What Seattle did was create an 'Executive' office space for the topmost layer of City officials (200-300), not what Mayor Taylor is promoting. Their less sanitary functions remain remote. She's trying to justify consolidation of many departments into this building (and, still using only a small part of it), including some traditionally more 'shop' oriented functions of Public Works, at least to economically justify things. Even then, if fails to come close. As it is, the City of Tulsa DOES currently lease space (The Hartford Bldg) which it does not own. The reason she's trying to buy this thing is because our ByLaws state it as a requirement that the City own it's main facility. This is a very big reach to that end. And, it actually solves fewer problems than it creates. The Plaza should be updated and preserve the 'Civic Center' as the main public interface. One Tech does nothing similar to that. And, the economics don't work either. Bad deal all around. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Wilbur on June 26, 2007, 08:23:05 am Reading between the lines of this Tulsa World article, I'm sensing city government is about to be in the hotel business.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070626_1_A13_hTuls64430 Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Conan71 on June 26, 2007, 10:39:26 am quote: It's not a loss. Just as corporations do, they use capital funds to purchase an asset. Maintenance, moving, etc. is another budget item. How much would it cost to thoroughly over-haul the existing city hall and consolidate all city offices with some expansion there? Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Hometown on June 26, 2007, 12:00:14 pm Downtown is crawling with spaces that would accommodate a hotel. I’m reminded of my visitor from Chicago who found some nice things to say about downtown but didn’t like all the empty spaces (surface parking lots) between the towers. She didn’t think our downtown had enough density to look right.
So we could build hotels right and left. Because of all the demolition, downtown really is a developer’s dream. Here’s an idea for a boutique hotel close to the new Arena. You know that classic 60s Motel/Hotel on 4th with the Coney Island on the ground floor. Modern architecture from the 60s has become very trendy. With a modest investment the Motel/Hotel could be restored. There are a lot of reissues of ‘60s furniture out there now. So refurbish with period furniture and hang Pop Art posters throughout the hotel. Develop the Coney Island restaurant as a club called “Pop.” We stayed at something similar with a Tiki Hut Theme in Palm Springs a couple of years ago. It would tie in with our restored Modern Civic Center. Ma and Pa Kettle will probably want to stay at the Double Tree but … Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: just_like_new on June 26, 2007, 01:11:56 pm I am totally new to this whole Tulsa Now forum, but I was reading your idea about the closed down hotel where Coney Island is, and I love it. I have always thought that underneath all the rust and broken windows that building has a great retro style to it.
I have to say though, the current city hall is just plain ugly and should go. I have lived here all my life, and while there are some great buildings of that era that should be restored, city hall is not exactly a stunning example. Everytime I have gone to city hall I have hurried through the dark parking garage clutching my mace in my purse for fear of mugging, not exactly the feeling we should be sending out about our city. Couldn't the big open plaza stay as is and benefit from a little grass and a few trees (possibly "Up With Trees" trees?) Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: T-Town Now on June 26, 2007, 04:29:51 pm I think our current City Hall is one of the most unimpressive buildings in the city. And that is what it says to others who are considering investing in Tulsa: "unimpressive."
I don't necessarily think it should be torn down, but why not renovate City Hall into a boutique hotel? In San Diego, they have the Westgate, which is very 60's looking on the outside (built in 1970), almost bland. But inside, it's the Ritz. Lush is the word. And it's a great place to stay while in San Diego. http://www.westgatehotel.com/ I think Tulsa needs something that better represents where we want to go, and the new building could certainly do that. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: sgrizzle on June 27, 2007, 06:55:37 am quote: It could stay but no-one likes the garage underneath. just drop it down to grade and make a real plaza. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Wilbur on June 27, 2007, 07:01:31 am Everyone does realize, when they say city offices will be consolidated into one facility, they are putting less then 25% of city employees into One Tech, which won't fill 50% of the building.
Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: sgrizzle on June 27, 2007, 07:05:59 am quote: That's because they are keeping the existing tenants and adding a few. That makes the move look good on paper ($$$). Later, when no-one is looking anymore, tenants and their revenue will leave and more city folk can move in. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: TheArtist on June 27, 2007, 03:05:21 pm Oh I certainly agree that we could lower the plaza, refurbish the buildings around it, make the street go through, remodel, repair and update the city hall and even add a new more useful entrance, lobby, and few more office spaces with a 3 or 4 story building around it to consolidate more city functions, do some landscaping, add some new fountains and artwork, etc. etc.
But will that cost more or less than the moving option and how will that be paid for versus how moving would be paid for? I would actually prefer doing all of that but my impression is that it will require even more money than moving. If we have this many people screaming that we may spend a bit more than we already are now, how much more would they scream if we will be spending the same amount as now plus all the new funds it would require to do all that remodeling, building and upkeep? Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Hometown on June 27, 2007, 04:26:28 pm Check out TulsaNow's home page. We have a former president of TulsaNow endorsing the move. I'm curious, was there a vote taken of TulsaNow members or does this just reflect the former president's point of view?
Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: waterboy on June 27, 2007, 06:28:47 pm quote: You're argument is making progress Hometown. At our lunch Tuesday I was surprised to see that a minority of us thought the move will actually take place. After its original momentum the case seems to be weakening. Maybe because John Erling has been pimping it on cable with Himelfarb. [:P] Perhaps if there were a competing plan or someone could/would pinpoint what the cost of re-habbing the plaza would be? Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Hometown on June 27, 2007, 07:45:17 pm To purchase we have to put up money right away.
Staying in City Hall would require no immediate additional expenditures. According to TulsaWorld reports there is already $15M of the $27M needed to rehab City Hall budgeted, leaving $12M more to bring it up to speed. You could continue to defer $12M in maintenance for now. There is no deadline to restore the plaza other than people's patience. There are various ways to finance restoring Civic Center and the surrounding buildings slowly, over time. How do you calculate the value of intanglibles like the historic value (and potential economic value) of a mint condition 60s Modern Civic Center? Marin County is famous for its Frank Lloyd Wright City Hall. The esteem we have for Modern architecture will grow with time. Tulsa has a lot of significant Modern architecture. We are famous for our Art Deco. Well, Modern Architecture is directly descended from Art Deco. Can you see how preserving both might have value to Tulsa? Something of value we already hold in our hands. Already paid for. The Feds and The State and The County have made enormous investments in their Civic Center facilities and they must think that the City of Tulsa is an unreliable partner. By abandoning it's current City Hall Tulsa will put the whole Civic Center complex in jeopardy and force the Feds and State and County to scramble. I hope that anyone who cares about Tulsa's history will say no to throwing away Civic Center. We love you Mayor Taylor but you are wrong about this. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: inteller on June 27, 2007, 08:29:02 pm quote: you cant be pro stupid once you've gone pro smartass Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: dbacks fan on June 28, 2007, 01:45:51 am Just my opinion as a Tulsa native, that now lives in Phoenix and have seen and learned about the changes that cities go through over time, I think that it would be a shame to leave the CC Plaza area. This was the heart and soul of the city and the county for all of my life living in Tulsa. There is the architecture there that speaks of the growth of Tulsa in the 50's, 60's, and 70's. Yes there were ideas that did not work in downtown, and I have thoughts on what changed the landscape of downtown and most of Tulsa in the 70's and early 80's, but I'm not going into that here. To me, I think moving the seat of government is not a wise choice, and to those who don't care for the architecture of the buildings, have you lived in Tulsa long enough to have seen the loss of Art Deco and Frank Lloyd Wright and Post War Modern Design to understand that this is a loss of heritage? Everyone wants to reinvent things and a lot of them don't want to give credit to the past.
Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: dbacks fan on June 28, 2007, 02:30:11 am I took this picture on a tour of Frank Lloyd Wright's Taliesin West. It is a picture showing the Price Tower in Bartlesville. It was intersting to people on the tour that this building exists in Oklahoma.
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p309/kallsop2/flw1.jpg) Before you say get rid of of a building, check out the history, and then decide. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Hometown on June 28, 2007, 11:59:29 am “There is the architecture there that speaks of the growth of Tulsa in the 50's, 60's, and 70's.” -- dbacks fan.
Well, I guess you know I think dbacks fan has hit the nail on the head. It looks to me like city has been making a concerted effort to get the area of downtown around the Arena all beautified before the opening of the Arena. I think that’s why we see the launch of the new effort to house the homeless. And my guess is that’s why we have increased police patrols in the northwest quadrant of downtown. Lord knows it’s been difficult driving through downtown recently because of all the roadwork being done to get ready for the opening of the Arena. I honestly believe that Taylor and members of her inner circle see this move as a part of getting everything all purty for the big event. And purty to this crowd means no disturbing low income people hanging around and everything all shiny and new. There may also be a story behind the story with back room deals being made that we don’t know about. The frantic tone of the proponents of the move makes me believe there is something else going on. It’s touching that Tulsa is so unsophisticated that it’s getting itself worked into a frenzy for the opening of the Arena. Well the opening of an architecturally significant building in Tulsa is a big event. I just hope we don’t destroy our Civic Center in the process. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Conan71 on June 28, 2007, 12:24:37 pm You certainly don't think there are any bums staggering around out in front of Queen Kathy's fashionable home on Los Olas in Fort Lauderdale do you?
Why would anyone be surprized by all this? I saw this coming as soon as she defeated McCorkle in the primary. I suspect long-time friends of the Lobeck/Taylor household are getting greased on many of these deals. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Hometown on July 01, 2007, 10:56:02 am Some Tulsa World Headlines we might see between now and the City Council vote on moving City Hall.
FUTURE OF BASEBALL IN TULSA HINGES ON CITY HALL MOVE Stadium must be built on civic center site MUNICIPAL OPERATIONS GRIND TO A HALT Mayor explains city employees seek refuge near water fountains to avoid exposure to mold JESUS WANTS NEW CITY HALL Hastily arranged group of City’s religious leaders declare it’s the Lord’s will MAYOR THREATENS TO TAKE HER TOYS AND LEAVE City council tells on her THE FUTURE OF THE FAMILY DEPENDS ON MOVE TO NEW FACILITY Opponents of City Hall move described as secret front for gay marriage organization Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: waterboy on July 01, 2007, 02:12:05 pm Prescient? The first one is on the front page of this morning's World.
Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: TheArtist on July 01, 2007, 02:46:20 pm close....
FUTURE OF BASEBALL IN TULSA HINGES ON CITY HALL MOVE. Stadium must be built on Hartford building site. [8D] Is an interesting idea to throw in the mix along with "hotel space where the city hall is now". The city could sell the Hartford building site and some areas around it to the Global Development people so they could reconfigure what they were going to build. If the other group gets the Nordam property, would it then mean that both groups could essentially develop their plans? Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Oil Capital on July 02, 2007, 11:06:40 am quote: Excellent Post. LOL (except the truth is actually pretty sad) Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: dbacks fan on July 02, 2007, 11:25:51 am I thought you guys were joking until I read the article. Next to the BOk Center? That would fit where the Civic Center is now. If they do that, can I have the prism fixtures hanging from the ceiling between the two halves of the building?
Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Hometown on July 02, 2007, 11:46:08 am Well it helps me to be able to laugh a little about the shake down that is in progress.
SOCIAL SECURITY CHECKS CANNOT BE PROCESSED City’s seniors told monthly benefit depends on purchase of new city hall TULSA CERTAIN TO GO BANKRUPT Deferred maintenance totaling $12M threatens to bring down once proud Oil Capital The day after the City Council Vote: MAYOR HAS MAJOR BAD HAIR DAY Considers housing city operations in west wing of her mid-town palace Anyway folks I’m getting close to the “give it up to God” phase. If anyone has an October surprise that will keep City Hall in its current locale, now is the time to let it rip. I’m going to email my city council representative and say a prayer. Dear God, Please don’t let Tulsa throw away any more of her history. I’ve watched my hometown trash one historic asset after another. Please God, for the sake of future generations of Tulsans, save our Civic Center. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Conan71 on July 02, 2007, 02:03:26 pm Hometown, for once posts from you that made me laugh instead of groan. Great creativity- you should use it more often instead of being a sock puppet for the liberal left. [}:)]
Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: shadows on July 02, 2007, 03:17:46 pm All that I read is that there are so many in God’s little acres that are so excited about the moving of 20% of the total employees of the city into the glass house. There is an old saying “don’t throw stones if you live in a glass house”.
The move is being made to impress the visiting dignitaries what a millionaire is be able to do by changing the redneck concept to professional high class where there is not even room for the working poor to congregate to admire it from the sidewalk. It’s a done deal but I understand there will be no gates of pearl replacing the entrance doors. For now anyway. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Hometown on July 02, 2007, 04:00:25 pm Shadows I truly do not understand how an interloper can dive into Tulsa, throw out decades of city planning and undermine a huge complex of government buildings all without public discussion. Watching this process has helped me understanding how Tulsa got into the shape she is in.
And it would help if we had a local newspaper that would give some coverage to folks that disagree with their agenda. Maybe this idea will die a quiet death like the Channels did. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Renaissance on July 02, 2007, 04:38:07 pm Getting lost in the conversation about the Civic Center is that it's a leaky moldy poopbucket. It may be rectangular, but it's still a leaky moldy poopbucket.
Seriously though, the Civic Center fails as a civic center. Why do reasonable people want to throw out decades of public planning? Because they recognize that those plans failed, and it's time to move on for the sake of the city center. I hope it works. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Hometown on July 02, 2007, 05:24:10 pm If it is so obvious they shouldn't be afraid to open it up to public discussion and invite public input.
Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Wilbur on July 02, 2007, 06:51:12 pm I might buy more into the project if Tulsa County would also move into the same building and share expenses. If the City will only use half the building, why not put the county in the other half and make it one-stop-shopping for customers.
Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: waterboy on July 02, 2007, 07:24:12 pm quote: Because they would devour each other. Each would want to be the landlord. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Townsend on July 03, 2007, 09:23:41 am quote: Ralph Furley vs Stanley Roper Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Hometown on July 06, 2007, 11:26:04 am Saw my City Hall mole over the holiday. Apparently staffers do not support the move. They want to stay in current city hall where they have offices. In proposed location they would only have cubes. So this looks to be a plan that was originated at the top.
There are other alternatives being studied including staying put. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: sgrizzle on July 06, 2007, 11:28:36 am quote: Wow. They might have to usher in 1981. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Hometown on July 06, 2007, 11:38:16 am What happened in 1981 Mr. Grizzle? Your post is mysterious. Please enlighten.
Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: TulsaSooner on July 06, 2007, 12:19:02 pm quote: Hmm. I was sure this project was undertaken by the utility customer service folks. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Conan71 on July 06, 2007, 01:32:28 pm quote: You voted for this interloper from Ft. Lauderdale/OKC...yes? Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: swake on July 06, 2007, 02:41:18 pm Let’s be honest here,
Even if the deal to move the city office does cost some money and doesn’t really save as much as advertised, it’s a good deal. The Civic center simply is the very worst city government complex I have ever seen in any city. Period. The worst, and by far. And we all know it. It’s an abomination. I cringe at the idea that city leaders take prospective business people and developers into that wasteland. It’s beyond awful. It’s depressing and cold and looks like something from the Soviet era in Russia. The Civic Center was very badly conceived, designed and maintained. There is no possible civic pride in that terrible collection of bad buildings. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Hometown on July 06, 2007, 04:58:28 pm Swake, I have a background in art and in my opinion Tulsa's Civic Center is beautiful. It provides a striking terminus for 5th Street. Its public spaces are many and impressive.
We have a classic Mid Century Modern Civic Center. Taken in its entirety, our Civic Center has great esthetic and historic value. Where were you when the city tore down the Will Rogers or the Delman or the Brook? Where were you when the city allowed small business owners to destroy 15th between Utica and Lewis? Were you looking the other way when the city and small business owners destroyed South Denver? Did you call it preservation when the city tore down most of the Old Warehouse Market and built a Home Depot beside it? Did you call it progress when the city tore down its historic old library near T.U.? I haven’t even started. Tulsa has many virtues but preserving her historic buildings and neighborhoods is not one of them. Let’s not throw away any more of Tulsa’s important history. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: TheArtist on July 06, 2007, 08:41:49 pm quote: The times I have had to go to any city offices gave me the feeling that many of these people do not need to be in offices. To easy to slack. I think they can be worked harder and more consistently in cubicles. Perhaps even get rid of a few people and streamline things a bit. Some of those offices were messes. You can tell the differences between government jobs and corporate ones at a glance. They didnt look as if they were working with any earnest immediacy. It looked as if they had moved into homey, slow paced, little nests...to stay. I think the whole system of city gov. could be more efficiently managed and supervised at the new city hall. Perhaps thats a bit of what those staffers are afraid of? Plus there are many other reasons why corporations design their office floors the way they do. Easier, faster, communication and idea exchange is one. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: swake on July 07, 2007, 06:10:48 am quote: I can appreciate your background, and I hope you can appreciate that I spent my first two years in college as a Architecture major until I came across a decidedly evil and non-artistic class that went by the dark name of Differential Equations. Regardless of style the Civic Center is not good architecture. I can very much appreciate other examples of Modern. I happen to think that the buildings at ORU will end up as treasures. And you are insulting a number of great buildings that have been lost by grouping them with that monstrosity called the Civic Center. All cities have lost good buildings, and you weaken the effort to save Tulsa’s large number of remaining architectural treasures by defending worthless and bad buildings. Just because a building is old, does not make it a good building or worth saving. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: waterboy on July 07, 2007, 08:32:21 am quote: Slackers. Messy offices. Efficiency. Work Harder! Fear. Streamlining. Damn! You would have loved business school. Those are words they have tattooed on their asses as freshmen. Criticizing govt. workers is so easy and common. Can't go wrong there. Watching the movie "Office Space" was an accurate representation of the corporates I've worked for and around. They looked better dressed than govt. workers but behaved the same way at all levels, regardless of whether they were in the bullpen, the cubicle or the suite. Apparently you think human beings under the government umbrella are different species than under the corporate umbrella. With the exception that motivation is more inspired, the main differences are you have fewer protections as an employee and make significantly more money under corporate. How dare they put pictures of their children and dogs next to plants on the taxpayers property! If it weren't for these $7.50hr menial jobs that allow a little homey cubicle or desk area, where would the poorly educated, culturally deprived, single head of households work? Did you know that many County employees also qualify for food stamps? I hope you didn't mean to sound so uncompassionate. I get bothered by judgements rendered from different disciplins. I wouldn't pass judgement on an artists work or the importance of saving mid century modern buildings having only had a couple art history courses. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: TheArtist on July 07, 2007, 08:58:58 am Actually I think your right about a lot of corporate work spaces, but not all. When I hear about some of the shenanigans that go on in some of those places from some of my friends I think, "Boy that company wont last long with that kind of work ethic." And often I am right. Its just natural that if another competing company works harder, faster and smarter than you,,, there is a good chance you are not going to have your job long. Plus I suppose a lot of my perspective comes from my background, mom was a workaholic, my military experience and from having worked for years at UPS with someone standing over me with a stop watch, then me becoming a supervisor and standing over others with one and yelling, pick up the pace! move! lol. Or as one of my drill seargents was fond of saying "a**holes and elbows! thats all I want to see! move it! move it! move it!. No I don't think they would like me at city hall one bit. [:P]
Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Hometown on July 07, 2007, 09:09:44 am Get your architecture text books out Swake. You and me gonna have an art fight. More to follow.
Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: waterboy on July 07, 2007, 09:54:35 am quote: Hell, they may be teaching that in business school now! Can you imagine the sexual harrassment lawsuits from that style?[:D] All in all, self employment has always appealed to me most. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: mr.jaynes on July 07, 2007, 02:49:05 pm quote:Watching the movie "Office Space" was an accurate representation of the corporates I've worked for and around. They looked better dressed than govt. workers but behaved the same way at all levels, regardless of whether they were in the bullpen, the cubicle or the suite. Apparently you think human beings under the government umbrella are different species than under the corporate umbrella. With the exception that motivation is more inspired, the main differences are you have fewer protections as an employee and make significantly more money under corporate. [/quote] Office Space-it was an instant classic for me, specifically because, at one time, I lived it! Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: shadows on July 07, 2007, 03:52:46 pm Will the mayor have one of those little cubes on the first floor?
It could be a good move as the cubes could be used for an another call center as soon as the city finds another new outlet in architectural changes. This would be a way to pay off the revenue bonds that will be used to buy the building by the authority. Any suggestion to reduce city employees will not fly under any threats of finding the now hidden employees in the offices of the present city hall. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: RecycleMichael on July 07, 2007, 05:03:19 pm quote: I completely disagree. I promise you I have been in more government offices than you. I currently do work for 12 different governments...from Glenpool to EPA. I also regularly go into the offices of almost all the large employers in town and most of the big educational institutions. I have also been in the corporate offices of Coca Cola, Time magazine and Nabisco foods in the last few months. There are slackers, goof-offs and workaholics in every situation. If I had to characterize the difference in a general way, the private sector office environment has more problems because of the opportunities to be rewarded can lead to unscrupulous behavior. The public sector has more problems because most of their mission can never be solved by them in their lifetime. They (the public sector) work to keep the streets safe, the water clean, and the trash picked up. They don't have easy jobs like paintings pretty pictures (sorry, it was too easy). They rarely receive any notice at all unless the problem increase or they mess up. They also see their screw-ups put in the paper while the private sector just moves on. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: TheArtist on July 07, 2007, 05:42:42 pm Ok ok, I was being prejudiced and wrong. Kind a new it when I said that but blathered it out there anyway. BUT lol, I still think there are benefits to productivity when you can check everyone out when they are in their cubicles versus them being in offices. Also I personally find I draw energy from those around me in a lively busy environment, when I am couped up alone in a place I tend to mentally drift and lose energy.
And hey, watch the artist comments! Painting is a lot of mental work and stress. You have to please the client, figure out where things should be placed, relative sizes, how light or dark they should be, the balance of color and composition, the over all feel, every brush stroke every leaf has to be thought out and it all has to be done on time and on budget. If you mess up you dont eat or get the bills paid or have the money to pay the people who work for you. Working evenings coming up with designs, going to meetings before and after work and on weekends. Worse yet you have to GET work. Imagine going to a job interview every single week or so and trying to convince the person to hire you. Imagine not having any work. Suddenly having 5 decorators and different builders calling you all at once for some parade of homes thing at the last moment and not able to do them all. Then a few weeks later with a lump in your stomach because you dont have any more work lined up. You always have to push to be better and do a good job or the other artist will be eating and not you. Not to mention try budgeting when you don't even know how much money your going to make the next month or sometimes next week. Yep its a picnic alright. Not like some posh government job. [:P] Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: swake on July 08, 2007, 10:29:50 am quote: Warren Petroleum Building good. The First Place Tower is decent, it's actually more International than Modern, but has elements of both, so does City Hall. City Hall is really bad, no matter the style. The base is ok, but the textures throughout are a mess and above the first floor it's really bad. The Council building is actually ok, and I like the Library. The Police Courts building is another awful mess like City Hall. The County building, both the original and the annex are both bad. The plaza area is like something bad out of Logan's Run. It's complete disconection from anything natural or soft is what kills most open areas from that era. The Plaza outside of the First Place Tower is a little better, but still very bad and for all the same reason. And the real public area is inside the parking garage underneath. The "public" rarely ventures up onto the plaza. The worst part of the design is that buildings are entered from the garage, and under the plaza there isn't even an attempt to make anything be of aesthetic value. The Civic Center is bad, really bad. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: RecycleMichael on July 08, 2007, 09:26:38 pm I could never work in a cubicle nor could I ever hang from a scaffolding holding a brush.
I am quite content collecting beverage cans out of the trash. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Double A on July 09, 2007, 11:06:41 am quote:BTW, the city hall move will be a clusterf#*ck of epic proportions that Tulsa will not recover from for many, many years. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Hometown on July 09, 2007, 07:41:03 pm Okay, here it is high noon and I’ve challenged Swake to a fight over Civic Center. I love Civic Center. I mean I love Civic Center’s past and its potential. I think City Hall belongs in Civic Center. He doesn't.
Tulsa’s Civic Center reminds me of Brasilia. You know, the Modern capital of Brazil. (http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t174/9lalo9/Civic%20Center/CCTulsa.jpg) (http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t174/9lalo9/Civic%20Center/Brasilia_2.jpg) (http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t174/9lalo9/Civic%20Center/IM000992-1.jpg) (http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t174/9lalo9/Brasilia7.jpg) Our Civic Center is Modern like Brasilia. They call it Mid-Century Modernism and it’s popular with the in crowd. But even the in crowd doesn't care for fountains without water: (http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t174/9lalo9/Civic%20Center/IM000985.jpg) Of course, it’s not Civic Center’s fault that Tulsa forgot the first rule of economy. TAKE CARE OF WHAT YOU HAVE. Oh I know people like things that are shiny and new. Well with a little bit of elbow grease and a few million from the feds, Tulsa’s Civic Center could be as fine and shiny as it was on the day that our fathers first saw their investment in Tulsa’s future. (http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t174/9lalo9/Civic%20Center/Tulsacentrallibrary.jpg) Tell me our library isn’t a beauty. (http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t174/9lalo9/Civic%20Center/Tulsaccourthouse.jpg) And there’s nothing wrong with the county court house that a good steam cleaning couldn’t cure. (http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t174/9lalo9/Civic%20Center/IM000976.jpg) Look at how the buildings line the common plaza and Fifth Street terminates in the Maxwell Convention Center. Look at how the architect played with light. Look at how city hall stands apart and seems to rise out of the plaza. What you don’t see is the Federal Building to the north or the State Building behind the Convention Center. Check out what Cynthia Nikitin said about civic centers. “Traditionally, the center of most cities has been a “commons,” a civic space built according to democratic principles. The commons may be a historic commercial square, as in Madison, Wisconsin, or it may be a mall (in the original sense), like the ones that grace San Francisco’s City Hall and the U.S. Capitol. In almost every case, major public and cultural institutions are located around the commons, forming a civic center of enormous practical and symbolic importance.” What’s the big deal with Civic Spaces? I mean what’s in it for me? Here's what the Project for Public Spaces says: “Civic Spaces are an extension of the community. When they work well, they serve as a stage for our public lives. If they function in their true civic role, they can be the settings where celebrations are held, where exchanges both social and economic take place, where friends run into each other, and where cultures mix. They are the ‘front porches’ of public institutions – post offices, courthouses, federal office buildings – where we can interact with each other and with government. …” Busy and full of life and beautiful. That’s how I see our Civic Center plaza. Busy with lunch time brown baggers, and free concerts and farmers markets and public gatherings. Imagine Modern sculpture, food stands, an outdoor café and sun and people taking a break and people doing business. Mothers pushing strollers and old folks playing checkers and young folks with room to breathe. So we have something of value. Already paid for. All we need to do is restore it. And we aren’t alone. Denver faced the same issues and decided to renew her civic center. Now she has embarked on a major overhaul of her civic center. Fort Worth recently created a civic center out a collection of unconnected government buildings and streets. Both Denver and Fort Worth have received generous help from the feds. Oh I know. Senator Inhofe and Senator Coburn have more important things to do than obtain federal funding for Oklahoma. But where there’s a will there’s a way and a federal program. Check out the publication – Federal Spaces, Civic Places. I’ll end with Marin County’s Civic Center. They are famous for their Modern Civic Center. We could be too. (http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t174/9lalo9/Civic%20Center/MoreMarinCountyCC.jpg) CITY HALL BELONGS IN CIVIC CENTER Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: TulsaSooner on July 10, 2007, 06:49:48 am Wait...which side of the argument are those pics supposed to be supporting? City Hall is, by far, the ugliest of all the Civic Center buildings.
Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: swake on July 10, 2007, 06:59:12 am The building in Brazila is a good building, no doubt. Compare it to our city hall, really. And I too like The Central Library, but the county building is bad and city hall is much worse. And just look at the photos of our public space. These are photos of a massive and complete failure of a public space, and water in the fountain would do nothing to change that. The fact the 5th Street is cut off is not a positive factor, the dead end of that street into nothingness is a large reason for the lack of use of the space, that and it’s moonscape quality. And as bad as the above ground portion of the civic center is, it is the best of the space, go under where people park and actually enter buildings, those should be some great photos. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: waterboy on July 10, 2007, 07:47:59 am Those pics were taken in the dead of winter with harsh sun and probably on a Sunday, giving it a ghost town appearance. HT, not everyone has your imaginative powers. Someone P-Shop them and show us what they could look like with some steam cleaning, bushes, trees, fountains and live bodies. Or with the plaza level opened up to multiple levels leading to parking.
Even Maple Ridge looks rough during the winter in places. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Renaissance on July 10, 2007, 09:01:43 am quote: Yeah, me too. Brasilia's architecture is a striking representation of mid-twentieth century Modernism. And it's an abject failure. The buildings are cold. There are no gathering areas. The workers go to work and then go home, and do not mingle, linger, or gather. The entire area, built for the convenience of the automobile, completely discourages any sort of pedestrian activity. Civic demonstrations, recreation, and tourism all take place elsewhere, in Rio or other urban areas. The promise of Modernism failed Brasilia and it failed Tulsa. http://www.macalester.edu/courses/geog61/jmoersch/reality.html We have an opportunity not to be stuck with crumbling, failed, outdated, embarassing, non-functioning city offices. Why not take it? Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Renaissance on July 10, 2007, 09:24:14 am Oh also, they can't put water in the fountain because of structural defects in the parking garage beneath. Lovely.
Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Double A on July 10, 2007, 09:48:20 am Been watching the UED, turns out the city will have to spend 500,000 just to arrange parking for the city employees. The city will have to provide shuttles too. Meanwhile average citizens will have to walk blocks to get to city hall after being at the mercy of private surface parking operators who will undoubtedly price gouge the average citizen who needs to visit city hall because of the limited parking options. This sounds like a great recipe to encourage more tear downs downtown to provide increasingly profitable private surface parking.
Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: cannon_fodder on July 10, 2007, 09:50:34 am In that area, I dont think tear downs are even an option. After all, the Blue Dome is the only area utilizing most of its buildings. If they evict people to make surface parking I may go on a bombing campaign.
Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Double A on July 10, 2007, 09:57:04 am quote:Deferred maintenance is the reason for this. When you neglect to take care of something it deteriorates. If you are so concerned about structural defects on a building that been around for 30 years, why do advocate moving to a new building with structural defects in the curtain wall and the roof(both of which have failed). You getting one of these sweetheart no bid contracts being pushed as part of this deal? Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: TulsaSooner on July 10, 2007, 10:04:54 am quote: You have a link to that? I've never heard either of those scenarios. There is a parkiing garage on the corners to the NE and NW of OTC. There is a surface lot a metered spots to the SE of OTC. I'd think those would be able to accomodate employee and citizen parking. If it can't, there is supposedly more than enough parking for employees within a 2-3 minute walk of OTC....those are the numbers I've heard discussed when employee parking is brought up. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: TulsaSooner on July 10, 2007, 10:06:11 am quote: As I understand it, both of these issues were resolved in the last year or so with the warranty/warranties transferrable to the new owner of OTC. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Renaissance on July 10, 2007, 10:12:40 am quote: No. I just want my city government moved out of its current sh!tbucket headquarters so I can hold my head up when I point out City Hall to visitors. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Conan71 on July 10, 2007, 10:18:34 am quote: Cool. Trade one building with fleas for a better looking building with fleas. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Double A on July 10, 2007, 10:23:14 am quote:Watch the city council UED committee meeting rebroadcast on TGOV. I am so thankful that our Councilors ask questions and don't just cheerlead. This whole plan is deeply flawed. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Oil Capital on July 10, 2007, 10:55:15 am quote: Deeply flawed is putting it very nicely. I too am thankful the councilors have been asking questions. Let's just hope they continue to question as the vote approaches later this week. There are FAR too many unanswered questions and misrepresentations for this thing to go forward. Just to name the biggest one: Why won't the mayor make the entire Staubach study public? Post it on the City's website already. What is she hiding? (I have twice made inquiries to the "Mayor's Action Line"on this subject and have yet to receive ANY response. Not even an acknowledgment.) Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Double A on July 10, 2007, 11:16:57 am Oh yeah, that "objective, credible" study that was done with the promise of a pay off to the company if the sale takes place.
Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Hometown on July 10, 2007, 11:51:10 am Every one is sort of dancing around the issue of does Tulsa need a civic center? Does our civic center have any value to Tulsa?
Tulsa’s City Hall is very much cut from the same cloth as most of Tulsa’s towers, including her two tallest towers. It is a style descended from Ludwig Mies van der Rohe and his strict, minimalist vein of Modernism. Our city hall is a significant example of Modernism. It appears to rise out of and then float on the surface of the plaza. There is a sense of weightlessness achieved by heavier floors sitting on the smaller glass floor at the plaza level. There is a real gravity defying mystery with city hall and the nearby council building. A kind of “how did they do that.” Now here’s how fashion works. A style has its first life span and people eventually grow tired of it. We move on. With time we take another look at past styles and we reevaluate and revise history and we find that once again our eye is drawn to a style. After a few more years of the clutter of post-Modernism even Tulsans are going to be crying for the clean well lit open spaces of Modernism. It has already happened in painting. Sometimes I think Tulsa has gone crazy: We are talking about incurring significant debt to move away from an outstanding civic center into a building that is not suited for public life. We are talking about diminishing and privatizing a wonderful civic center plaza while we also talk about creating spaces downtown that invite walking and encourage public gatherings. We whine about needed a luxury hotel near the Arena when The Magnificent Old Mayo is being redeveloped for the untried proposition of loft housing. Look, even an old cow town like Fort Worth can become a world class city. They have used federal money to create a civic center while we can’t wait to tear down ours. I realize that you probably had to live through the convulsions of life in Tulsa over the past few decades to understand the various rationalizations that have taken us to this apparent state of insanity. In a recent newspaper article a man in public works was talking about Taylor’s concern with beautification in advance of the opening of the Arena. Ms. Taylor, let me tell you what the most rich women do when they want to gussy things up. They hire the best experts and let them do what they do best. When all is said and done, Ms. Taylor, you risk being the mayor that destroyed Tulsa’s civic center – period. Now do you think you folks could find a little substance in your pronouncements of ugly by offering some reasons. Swake, If you don’t understand the importance of a street’s terminus then it is a good thing you opted of architecture. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Double A on July 10, 2007, 01:09:55 pm Isn't that what this whole mess is about? The current city hall isn't the latest fashion and therefore below the extravagant standards of our high maintenance Mayor. Image over substance seems to be the guiding principle in making this unnecessary move such a priority.
Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Conan71 on July 10, 2007, 01:34:05 pm HT-
I will admit the alternative isn't looking a whole lot better at this point, but that doesn't change the fact that most Tulsans hate the present City Hall. You can polish that pig as much as you want and it's still a dump and embarrassment to our city's image. Maybe if this whole issue fails, they will hire you into a consultant's role to Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Renaissance on July 10, 2007, 01:36:56 pm quote: Wrong. The current city hall is an embarassment. No respectable, efficient business has a headquarters like that. It is a direct reflection on our city. I understand the position that the current deal wouldn't make sense for the city. I disagree with that position but I respect it. But don't try to put lipstick on a pig. This deal makes sense in a lot of ways. If you want to frame it in terms that are appropriate for talk radio, go ahead, and the adults will make the decisions for you while you froth at the mouth. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Renaissance on July 10, 2007, 01:38:10 pm quote: ^ +1 Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Double A on July 10, 2007, 02:36:13 pm quote:When people look to move to a city or remain in a city, the last thing people are concerned about is whether or not city hall is fashionable or aesthetically pleasing. I think they are much more concerned about the condition of the streets, public schools, public health, and public safety. The best argument you can come up with is city hall is ugly so we should move, proving my point that image over substance seems to be the guiding principle in making this unnecessary move such a priority. This mentality is absurdly irrational and completely irresponsible. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Hometown on July 10, 2007, 03:21:40 pm There are no important stylistic differences between City Hall and the BOK Tower, or Tulsa’s other tall flat top towers. All cut from the same cloth.
No one is addressing the separate issue of the importance of Civic Center to Tulsa. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Wrinkle on July 10, 2007, 03:25:15 pm I'm with AA on this.
Except, I will add, that to me it's been handed her to implement and she feels some obligation to see it through. It reeks of cronyism, besides being an absolute economic comic, especially for a building so illsuited for a City Hall function. I'm quite certain the Civic Center can achieve quite acceptable dynamics for the intended purpose. IF it had been maintained, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. But, entertaining a new building, to suite the function, is a better alternative than One Tech. For that matter, doing nothing is a better solution than One Tech. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: swake on July 10, 2007, 03:41:57 pm quote: Really? None? Come on. You aren't even being honest in this debate. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Hometown on July 10, 2007, 04:07:11 pm quote: Same elements to one degree or another in each of Tulsa's tall flat tops and our City Hall. All first cousins in the family of strict Modernism. All immediate descendants of Art Deco. Swake, I've answered several questions for you now. Can you please answer one? Is having a civic center important to Tulsa? Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: MichaelBates on July 10, 2007, 04:48:40 pm quote: That's why Tulsa's tall flat top towers leave so many of us cold. It's all so much conveniently packaged square footage. You couldn't say "cut from the same cloth" about Tulsa's assortment of Art Deco buildings or Gothic Revival buildings. quote: Civic Centers were a planning fad, closely related to the craze of homogenizing uses through zoning. Mixing uses, not segregating them, keeps an area dynamic. And the plan that was actually implemented bore little resemblance to the original mid '50s concept that won some degree of praise from planners and architects. Rather than mourn the loss of the Civic Center, better we should mourn the neighborhood it replaced and the impact the Civic Center had on downtown. Before the Civic Center, the area west of Denver was a continuous neighborhood of single-family homes, three and four story apartment buildings, churches, retail, and light industrial (e.g. the old Wonder Bread bakery), that extended all the way south to the river. Today's Riverview neighborhood, south of the IDL, is all that remains. The Civic Center superblock was the start of the eradication of residential development adjacent to the central business district, as almost everything west of Denver was replaced with government buildings. Closing 5th Street disrupted a natural flow of traffic coming from the west on Route 66 and into the heart of downtown shopping. Putting the Assembly Center (arena) furthest west created a two-football-field long barrier between event attendees and the downtown cafes and other businesses they might have patronized. I take your point about how architectural styles fall out of favor and are later rediscovered, but the problems with the Civic Center go beyond style to matters like a lack of human scale. Well-designed modern buildings like the Central Library could be part of a pedestrian-friendly streetscape. I have serious concerns about the wisdom of the proposed move to OTC, but the demise of the Civic Center is not among them. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Hometown on July 11, 2007, 11:46:24 am The following statement on the tradition of civic centers bears repeating:
“Traditionally, the center of most cities has been a “commons,” a civic space built according to democratic principles. The commons may be a historic commercial square, as in Madison, Wisconsin, or it may be a mall (in the original sense), like the ones that grace San Francisco’s City Hall and the U.S. Capitol. In almost every case, major public and cultural institutions are located around the commons, forming a civic center of enormous practical and symbolic importance.” So Michael, this writer believes that civic centers are a tradition, not a passing fad as you have stated. Civic centers continue to be an important part of many cities across the United States. Fort Worth has recently added one. If Tulsa decides she wants an iconic City Hall the thing to do would be to build at Civic Center and also restore and update the plaza. You could combine the Municipal Building and City Hall and Council Chambers into one new facility. I would suggest we hire a name architect. And don’t cut important design elements to save $15,000 like we’ve done with the Arena. That’s what I call penny wise and pound foolish. The important thing is to build upon, not throw away, our enormous investment in the Civic Center area. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: swake on July 11, 2007, 12:15:32 pm quote: Is it important? Obviously the answer is NO since no one uses it today. People may take advantage of the functions of the buildings, but the plaza aspect is completely unused, and to my knowledge always has been. The colors and textures of City Hall are a mess. Yes, it might appear to float, but the material the building is clad in is the same as what the plaza is constructed of, so it more seems to just blend in to an off-brown mess. And the pebble stone they used is all wrong for modern, it’s busy and the color isn’t consistent, which messes with the clean lines. And then to top it off, there are two varied and really clashing colors of pebble stone used. It’s just awful. Modern should be glass, cut stone, concrete, something clean, look at the Warren building as an example. It floats too. And, the way 5th ends isn’t a terminus, it’s an artificial end into nothing, an empty void. It seems and looks and really is a pointless end to the street. The bad city hall off to the side only makes it worse, and you can’t even see the convention center back at the end of the plaza very well. It is a much better example of Modern than City Hall, but it’s too short and wide to be a good back drop to the plaza area as you get to the end of 5th. A good terminus to a very good International Style building is Boston Avenue ending at the Williams Center with the striking and clean lined One Williams Center rising above. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Conan71 on July 11, 2007, 12:21:14 pm This is civic center and modern done right. Williams Square at Las Colinas (Irving, Tx.)
(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/TN/williamssquare.jpg) It may well fall out of favor with Texans in another 20 years, but it has a lot more interest and is built quite a bit better than the smoking dung heap in the middle of our downtown. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Hometown on July 11, 2007, 01:42:46 pm That's the spirit Conan. Let's save our Civic Center. Fix it don't F**k it.
Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: swake on July 11, 2007, 03:36:08 pm quote: That is a far better plaza and far better buildings, in the International Style. And just LOOK at ALL the hordes of people there! Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Double A on July 11, 2007, 05:26:37 pm KTUL just announced that on the news at ten they will interview Councilors who will vote against the One Tech move, according to the reports they claim to have enough votes to kill this move.
Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Wrinkle on July 11, 2007, 07:09:29 pm quote: I disagree, there's much there to be admired, even if it has not been well maintained. And, I bet, there's other's who would agree with me. (http://img487.imageshack.us/img487/1377/dtriftypj4.png) Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: YoungTulsan on July 11, 2007, 07:18:28 pm quote: LOL, thats something I never thought of. Looks just like City Hall! Well I guess it is easier to get a nice new building when you are spending other peoples money. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Rico on July 11, 2007, 07:24:49 pm If you have any question as to why Tulsa is a circular, downward spiraling City, just take a few moments to read this entire article.
"Venture Capital" is a non starter.......... Even when brought about by Muni. Bonds.... Do we really need the Arena...? Do we really need the New Jazz Hall of Fame....? We could have had quite a few roads fixed with the money V2025 cost.. of course they would have all been roads to nowhere.... But what the Hell... Tulsa thinks that the "armpit" attempt at City Hall is a classic "Modern" example of architecture. Government is just like any other business... You take a few bucks=to make a few more bucks... We have a "bean counter" on the Council that thinks that "Stay the course take the safe and tried and true path.... keep a few back for a rainy day..." is going to accomplish all that Tulsa deserves.. It will....! just not in any of our lifetimes.. "trickle down economics" fits this proposal.. The growth that would be stimulated would trickle down on all of Downtown and Tulsa. If the proposal is killed by the Council.... They in effect are saying they know better than the EDC.. The very body of the Government in charge of finding good sound economic ideas for Tulsa.. "Most people do not know a gift when it hits them in the face." Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Wrinkle on July 11, 2007, 08:02:45 pm I bet Mr. Himelfarb won't include this one on his resume when he's soon looking for work.
THIS EDC has lost its' collective mind, especially if they feel this is "right out of the conservative Republican playbook (http://"http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070711_1_A9_spanc21100")". This deal is, as I first stated, an idealogical delusion. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: TulsaSooner on July 12, 2007, 07:49:35 am From watching the report on Channel 8 last night, I will be shocked if the council passes this. Those that were interviewed were leaning towards voting NO and it was stated that 7 YES votes were required to pass it. I'd say that was never very likely in the first place because I figure Henderson/Turner would vote NO no matter what unless they were voting to move to north Tulsa.
That's a shame, because City Hall is an absolute dump. Perhaps they can find the money to perform the MUCH-needed deferred maintenance at least. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Hometown on July 12, 2007, 12:17:17 pm I for one am disappointed that our mayor did not seek public input, has not been forthcoming about all the details of the deal, and has asked the city to bypass competitive bidding.
My first impression of Taylor was that she governs by consensus and that she would routinely seek public input. I thought we had a mayor that believed in transparency. I hope this episode was an aberration. I am also disappointed that the Tulsa World didn’t print any criticism of the deal until today, the day of the council vote. They need to add some weight to their claim of being balanced. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Conan71 on July 12, 2007, 01:42:49 pm I'm not surprised.
She represented herself as "Tulsa's CEO". CEO's frequently make decisions in an apparent vacuum and are used to being accountable only to a board of directors (and to a lesser extent investors) they have to sell an idea to. CEO's can back-room deal all they like, and move about in a ghost-like fashion with corporate decisions and face minimal criticism. Ostensibly everything she's done and is doing is within the law, however, it's not being done in a fashion many Tulsans like myself are comfortable with. IMO- Mayor Taylor incorrectly views the council as her board of directors and the citizens as share-holders. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Double A on July 12, 2007, 02:12:12 pm (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/mistymountainhop/gif/KathyTaylor.jpg)
Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: swake on July 12, 2007, 02:18:42 pm quote: You know AA, you like to toss around the “corruption” charge a lot, but didn’t you personally work on the campaign for Don McCorkell? Who was at the center of one of the foulest smelling deals in state government history? The same “Don” who turned a $1 investment into millions in a sweetheart deal owning a power plant in Jenks just after he retired from the state legislature? And after backing legislation making that power plant possible? Makes me wonder who is buttering your bread AA and what ax you have to grind. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Conan71 on July 12, 2007, 02:24:56 pm That reminds me Swake. I never could figure out how a "career" state legislator could afford a personal loan of $750K to his campaign. That must explain it.
Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: cannon_fodder on July 12, 2007, 02:26:31 pm Same reason US Senators have an 'average' return on their portfolios of nearly twice the average of professional brokers...
Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: swake on July 12, 2007, 02:56:00 pm quote: It exactly explains it, and is why I fully expect the current FBI investigation into Gene Stipe and friends will eventually mention good ole Don. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Double A on July 12, 2007, 03:33:27 pm I've always been a volunteer on any campaign I've been involved in. I've never gotten anything in return for my involvement in any campaign, monetarily or otherwise. Yes, I supported McCorkell because A.) I am a Democrat and B.) He was the lesser of two evils between (Lafortune and Taylor). That and he pulled himself up by his own bootstraps instead of marrying into money.
Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: TulsaSooner on July 12, 2007, 04:12:50 pm quote: If you're referring to Mayor Taylor, my recollection is that she did the exact same in going from poverty to a law degree.....long before she married anybody. I could be wrong on that but I seem to recall having read that story somewhere. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Conan71 on July 12, 2007, 04:58:31 pm quote: Well that was the card her campaign ads played. She also referred to herself as a "single mother" in her ads, which at the time of the ads was patently false. She conveniently skirted the issue of being married to Lobeck all along, at least in her public advertisements. Too bad they throw away the signature registers after elections, she'd have never been mayor if they saved them for ten years. There again, we'd likely still have Mayor Bill, I'm not sure that would have been much better. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: TulsaSooner on July 12, 2007, 05:37:16 pm quote: Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Wilbur on July 12, 2007, 08:08:36 pm quote: I also found it strange the Mayor was requesting sole source on the banking surrounding the new city hall purchase. Why? The deal is too complex? What does that mean? Only one banker in town knows how to deal with what's cooking? Then that ought to tell you something. And who is the sole source going to? Can you say F&M? quote: Like what else has been transparent? Perhaps the search for a new police chief? All those citizen committees that were formed? Oh, that's right. No one allowed imput. Even hired an outside firm so as to avoid open records. Even hired an outside attorney to avoid open records. quote: The Tulsa World has given her a free ride since she got in office. And who ever claimed the Tulsa World was balanced? Surely you jest? Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: RecycleMichael on July 12, 2007, 08:19:45 pm I think the council is going to vote 7 to 2 to approve the motion to buy this building and move city hall.
I could be wrong, but most of the councilors seem to have found enough reasons to vote yes. They did their due diligence, and voted accordingly. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: RecycleMichael on July 12, 2007, 08:46:39 pm I was wrong. It was an eight to one vote.
It shows I don't know nothing. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Double A on July 12, 2007, 08:49:38 pm quote:They all seem to still have misgivings and concerns about this, but decided to throw caution to the wind. It makes me wonder about the extortion and arm twisting going on behind the scenes. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Rico on July 12, 2007, 09:09:42 pm ^
You mean you twisted arms and bribed people and still lost...? bummer man...! Better luck next time. [}:)] Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: ifsandbuts on July 12, 2007, 09:22:38 pm Ahh, now that's good TV...
Well, the motley crew speaking in opposition had to be a big boost to the mayor's cause, especially when you compared it to the impressive and diverse group speaking in favor. Mike Bates was definitely the only voice of reason in the group (and man, I sure never thought I'd be typing THAT!), and he ended up giving more reasons for the move than against it. I figured James Alexander sealed the deal when he told them he might not be able to come to the council meetings if parking was more expensive...you could almost see the little wheels spinning as they weighed the prospect of City Council meetings without all of the resident whackos who speak every week -- since most of them are unemployed, they won't be able to pay for parking! Woot! (Ignoring the fact that parking is mostly free at night.) And it was hysterical that every councilor who referenced the speakers made a point of praising "those who came down here to speak in favor." Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Double A on July 12, 2007, 09:31:12 pm quote:C'mon, a poor greaser like me? The best I can do is piss & moan and hope something gets through. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Wilbur on July 13, 2007, 06:30:26 am It's funny. Bill Christiansen on Wednesday night news was saying "...I'm a conservative business man....." and how this purchase didn't make sense. I guess he is no longer a conservative business man.
Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Hometown on July 13, 2007, 07:47:24 am I sincerely hope this is a positive development for Tulsa.
Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Conan71 on July 13, 2007, 07:48:31 am quote: Ahhh, but you were right. Christiansen retracted his "no". I think he retracted just so you would be wrong. Aside from my other mis-givings about certain bonuses to consultants and the haste in making this happen, my biggest rub was the speculative financing with the whole leasing deal. Since they are now required to find a third-party master lessee (sp?) in order to close the deal, I'm satisfied about the financing. Our other options were to figure out how to renovate the present dump or to build another city hall. We would have to deal with old city hall at one point or another. If nothing else I'll get pleasure out of it by listening to Hometown cry about the loss of "old" City Hall. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: TulsaSooner on July 13, 2007, 07:56:28 am A comment on the "bonus" to Staubach if the deal goes through. That isn't a bonus but rather their "commission" on the sale since they are some type of broker, right? Is that how that is supposed to work?
If so, I still don't automatically jump to the shady, conspiracy theory side but I can see how those two function should not be done by the same company. I'd like to know a little more about that part of it. Not that it will change anything, but to satisfy my curiosity. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: cannon_fodder on July 13, 2007, 08:15:19 am Funny that they all had trepidations with the deal and nearly all vote yes anyway. The requirement they put on it is an enormous joke. Then again, as with most things in this city, what the good ole' boys propose usually comes through in the end.
I really hope this turns out well. If they do not get something done with the old city hall by the next election everyone who voted YES should be kicked to the curb. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: sgrizzle on July 13, 2007, 08:57:09 am quote: I should run against him next round. Of course I need to get a successful business that could benefit from my position in office first. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: cannon_fodder on July 13, 2007, 09:08:50 am Wait, wait wait Sgrizz, you have that so messed up. There are many more ways to make money as a public servant. You could have a failing business that you could help out. Start a business. Transfer assets to yourself and set it up so you can make money out of office. Then there is the Clinton tactic - set your friends up fat and profit when out of office.
Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: sgrizzle on July 13, 2007, 10:08:16 am I can't do public office. I'd want to spend too much time on "city stuff" and not enough time on myself.
Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Conan71 on July 13, 2007, 10:21:24 am quote: Yeah, okay Medlock. Do you have any vast conspiracy flow charts to accompany your assertion? [;)] Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: Conan71 on July 13, 2007, 10:22:14 am quote: I bet Clinton learned from the master: Gene Stipe. Title: Good Bye Civic Center Post by: sgrizzle on July 13, 2007, 11:54:51 am quote: You got visio? |