|
Title: Shocker. The Daily Oklahoma takes shot across Post by: pfox on July 01, 2007, 01:06:20 pm Tulsa's bow. Unfortunately, it was a direct hit.
Mayor's Conference article (http://"http://newsok.com/article/3073746?pg=2") The shot comes from Editor Ed Kelley during his "Center Stage" video (upper right hand corner) "...Contrast that to Tulsa.(insert condescending tone here.) Mayor Kathy Taylor said Tulsa bid for the conference, but didn't make the cut because the city doesn't have near the hotel space downtown. That's not a problem in Oklahoma City, and that is in part because of city leaders and all taxpayers. The 1400 or so rooms are 1000 more than we had a decade ago. Think there would be 1400 rooms today if it weren't for the MAPS projects?" Here's the deal...I am glad for OKC that they got the conference. Kudos to them. And they should brag about it...we would had we gotten it. But why is it that they feel the only way to truly shine is to rub it in our (Tulsa's) face? The truth is, while they have done many positive things (civicly) for their city, they still have an inferiority complex. It helps Oklahoma if both Tulsa and OKC thrive. But, as far as I am concerned, at this point, it's every man for himself. They will get no respect from me until they start actually acting like a big city, instead of just bragging about it. Title: Shocker. The Daily Oklahoma takes shot across Post by: AMP on July 01, 2007, 01:49:26 pm "What will nation's mayors find in 2010 when they come to OKC?"
Wouldn't of been surprised had they published a cartoon of the rusted Belvedere and made some other remark against Tulsa while using that headline. Seems all they needed to say was the accurate number of Hotel/Motel rooms available in the Downtown Convention area and been done with it. But since the Cities are now in control of the operation of these convention type buildings/leasing/ticket sales operations sounds as if they are in direct competition with other cities for clients and events. ______________________________________________ Bill O'Reilly made a statement this morning on his radio program regarding Government Health, he said "If the government runs it don't try to get anything done on Fridays." The government still runs the Fire Departments and Law Enforcement and they work 24/7 don't they? Always confused me that our tax dollars are used to apprehend a petty shoplifting criminal, send EMSA to pick up a passed out drunken homeless person up off the street. We cannot seem to find money for health care to fix peoples teeth, provide vision care and assist others in need of critical health conditions. We seem to spend money on folks that do not hold a job or pay taxes, while ignoring those that do? Title: Shocker. The Daily Oklahoma takes shot across Post by: waterboy on July 01, 2007, 02:13:16 pm Alright Mr. Fox. You added the condescending tone to his voice. I don't think he changed his tone more than a 1/10 of a degree throughout the little speech.
I visited OKC forums for a while. I never saw the vitriol towards Tulsa that I see on this forum towards OKC. They were friendly and encouraging about Tulsa development though maybe not as sophisticated or informed. We make fun of Bricktown, the Oklahoma River and OKC's diminishing cowtown heritage as though it has no repercussions. Well it does. People there read too and they are quite proud of what they did and it surpasses our efforts so...payback's a *****. Truth is, people complain on this very forum that we don't need any more hotel space downtown, that having a new hotel close to the Arena is not important because its so easy to get around here and on and on. Here is my perception: there is a better selection of government jobs there (no surprise being the capitol), the population is younger, there is more consensus among the population, people in smaller communities around the city are more likely to visit there downtown for entertainment, they are more aggressive in accepting different ideas and less likely to care what we think about them as they continue to prosper. But I love Tulsa and can say those things with a clear conscience. Title: Shocker. The Daily Oklahoma takes shot across Post by: cannon_fodder on July 01, 2007, 02:27:49 pm Waterboy, in truth - people complain that we don't need any government funded hotel space downtown. I'm a huge fan of private hotels... but it is not the roll of government nor where I want my tax money.
As I have said before, nearly all of OKC top employers are governmental. Tinker, the FAA, State Government, County, OU, OU Medical Center, The Federal Building (IRS, Postal, DOJ, etc.)... and on. The recession in the early 2000's didn't hurt those jobs. OKC has played its cards very well to position itself as a mid-major "destination" city. Conferences and events feel they can go to OKC and people will come because there are others things to do. Tulsa would be wise to do something similar, but Tulsa is not OKC and needs to find its own way of accomplishing it. So congrats to OKC for getting the conference, if nothing else it will save us some money when we send Kathy on her next vacation. [;)] Title: Shocker. The Daily Oklahoma takes shot across Post by: mr.jaynes on July 01, 2007, 02:28:02 pm quote: For my tax money, I find so much of what Bill O'Reilly has to say is pure unadulterated crap. Title: Shocker. The Daily Oklahoma takes shot across Post by: TheArtist on July 01, 2007, 02:43:11 pm It didnt sound to me like a condescending shot at all, just a statement of fact. They were pointing out why good things have started happening for OKC because of MAPS. If anything I am sure many Tulsans would agree with what was said. OKC has stepped up to the bat and done what we havent done,,,yet. And what he quoted the mayor as saying was perfectly true. I bet she was happy for him to say it for it underlines many of her pushes to try and get the ball rolling for new hotel development in downtown. (though we may disagree with her methods)
Title: Shocker. The Daily Oklahoma takes shot across Post by: waterboy on July 01, 2007, 04:00:00 pm quote: Yeah, who pays for the hotel is another matter. Should be privately funded. Do you think this is an attempt to help Taylor get support for her programs by being taunted from OKC? Title: Shocker. The Daily Oklahoma takes shot across Post by: pfox on July 01, 2007, 05:54:03 pm quote: Agree to disagree on the tone. The comparison, or mention of Tulsa was entirely unnecessary, unless Mr. Kelley was trying to inspire Tulsans to engage in some civic pride, and realize some visionary and historic projects of our own. I seriously doubt that, however, let me assure you, that I couldn't agree with his message more. He is clearly correct in most every statement that he made, even the ones regarding Tulsa. We have miles to go before we sleep, for sure. But we will get there. Title: Shocker. The Daily Oklahoma takes shot across Post by: swake on July 01, 2007, 06:38:41 pm quote: You are aware that $20 million of the $40 million spent on the Skirvin was public money, right? Title: Shocker. The Daily Oklahoma takes shot across Post by: dsjeffries on July 01, 2007, 11:38:28 pm I don't understand why people keep saying that Tulsa hasn't done anything to enhance our civic infrastructure, entertainment, etc., when we have. We're only four years into Vision2025 and already things are already turning around--not only in downtown, but other areas of the city as well.
OKC passed the first MAPS in 1993--14 years ago--and is just now really beginning to reap the benefits from that, so don't dog Tulsa's efforts and don't forget Vision2025. It takes time, and so far, it seems that Tulsa's developments are coming more quickly than those in OKC did/have. Title: Shocker. The Daily Oklahoma takes shot across Post by: waterboy on July 02, 2007, 07:09:42 am quote: Details! Details! Perhaps I'm too close to the forest to see such trees. Or perhaps our penchant for not recognizing reality and thus not acting to change it, is in play. No offense to you, just seems like there's plenty of cheerleading already. OKC has been reaping benefit from MAPS 93 for quite some time now. Heck, they're on like phase 3 now. Historical museum is done, Bricktown, Oklahoma River with marina, the stadium and their arena are well established. Compare and contrast is not the same as criticizm. That's all that the speaker did. Title: Shocker. The Daily Oklahoma takes shot across Post by: NellieBly on July 02, 2007, 08:32:26 am Can't blame OKC for gloating -- for years and years, Tulsans have looked down their noses at OKC.
Title: Shocker. The Daily Oklahoma takes shot across Post by: AMP on July 02, 2007, 08:33:18 am Perhaps the part of the lacking Tulsa Hotel/Motel rooms in the article was by design, to help the City Hall Move into their new choice of location.
Just more paid propaganda to help with the move. Doen't the City of Tulsa have a Public Relations firm handling their affairs? Title: Shocker. The Daily Oklahoma takes shot across Post by: MichaelC on July 02, 2007, 08:36:50 am quote: I still do. Tulsa rules! OKC drools! Title: Shocker. The Daily Oklahoma takes shot across Post by: Chicken Little on July 02, 2007, 09:11:46 am quote:Yeah, but MAPS has spent money on neighborhood projects and schools all over town. They are working on the whole city; and they are seeing new private investments in several parts of town. V2025 was basically just an arena and convention center. And "spinoff" from the arena was just an unplanned afterthought that our city fathers are still scrambling to understand. In that sense, the arena can't even be counted as a "downtown" project. When it was proposed, it was simply a new toy for the Chamber. Credit to those who are trying to make something more out of it now, but it doesn't excuse the uninspired upfront thinking. I'd say that the bond issues are different animals entirely. And that OKC has been making the better choices. I'm no fan of the place, but they are working smarter and harder than Tulsa. Title: Shocker. The Daily Oklahoma takes shot across Post by: Wrinkle on July 02, 2007, 09:31:15 am You guys are aware Downtown Tulsa already has 1,400 hotel rooms, right?
Title: Shocker. The Daily Oklahoma takes shot across Post by: dsjeffries on July 02, 2007, 09:52:56 am 2025 money is being spent all over the town, too, though. Yes, the arena cost a fortune, but to say that's the only project and the others were afterthoughts...
I for one have seen several tangible benefits from 2025, just in my small town: Osage Prairie Trail which connects to the River parks Trails, a brand new community pool, upgrades to our community center, downtown streetscape improvements, and a new downtown pocket park are some of the projects Skiatook alone has benefitted from--and our projects were just a small blip on the radar compared to those in the rest of the metro. Without 2025 funds, the fairgrounds wouldn't have even been on the map to host some of the new large events they've gotten in the past couple of years. And 2025 made monies available for neighborhood improvements, too, as well as funding for housing in downtown. The smaller-than-BOK projects are still vital to Tulsa. Just ask anyone that had to use the old Morton Clinic. People are grateful for these projects that you call afterthoughts. It's not like someone just thought, "Hey, let's build an arena and throw some other crap in there so people will like the idea". There were two previous attempts--both of which failed--that were aimed at doing a lot of the same things. Granted, there wasn't a Cesar Pelli-designed arena in the Tulsa Project, but many of the ideas from those attempts made it through with 2025. 2025 also provides funds for schools--it might not be what they all need to make the improvements we think they need to make, but it's a start. Don't forget that the original MAPS didn't include funding for schools (or at least, not that I can find). Most of that money went directly into downtown and downtown alone. Out of this list of projects taken from COKC's website (http://"http://www.okc.gov/maps/index.html"), the only one that isn't in downtown is the Fairgrounds project: AT&T BallPark, downtown Library, Canadian/Okla. River improvements, Bricktown Canal, Ford Center, renovation of the Myriad/Cox, renovation of Civic Ctr. Music Hall, the trolly system and renovations to the OKC Fairgrounds. MAPS for Kids was only passed in 2001 and in itself is a $180m project, so comparing that to Vision 2025 is like comparing apples to basketballs. Don't downplay Vision2025's significance or role in turning Tulsa and the whole metro in a better place to live, work and play. I'm not saying that every project is a huge success, but each one makes a difference. We all can disagree about what should have been done with the money, but let's save that talk for the next time something on this scale is put together. Plus--good or bad--without it, where would Tulsa be right now?? What development would be going on right now in downtown? (And let's not forget what OSU-Tulsa and OU-Tulsa would be, since we receive as close to zero State dollars as possible.) Title: Shocker. The Daily Oklahoma takes shot across Post by: NellieBly on July 02, 2007, 10:06:35 am The fairgrounds renovations are hardly the work of Vision 2025. That started with their own tax Four to fix the county.
I visited OKC not too long ago after not visiting for several years. It looked pretty good. Driving into town the first thing I saw was people picking up trash! Wow, I thought. Then I noticed the streets -- aaahhhh it's such a joy to drive on smooth concrete streets with working traffic lights. I was shocked at how non-trashy the city looked compared to the last time I was there (and compared to Tulsa. They have a lot to be proud of because I think they made a more overall investment rather than investing in a few things. Title: Shocker. The Daily Oklahoma takes shot across Post by: Renaissance on July 02, 2007, 10:45:10 am quote: No. List 'em. Title: Shocker. The Daily Oklahoma takes shot across Post by: swake on July 02, 2007, 10:56:52 am quote: It's actually about 1200. 450 each (about) at The Crowne Plaza and Double Tree hotels, another 200+ at the Great Western and just under 100 more at the Ambassador. Title: Shocker. The Daily Oklahoma takes shot across Post by: swake on July 02, 2007, 10:59:20 am quote: Started with, but 2025 kicked in another $40 million in improvements Title: Shocker. The Daily Oklahoma takes shot across Post by: Oil Capital on July 02, 2007, 11:00:13 am quote: Only in your imagination. Crowne Plaza: 462 Doubletree: 417 Great Western: 207 Total: 1086 Even including the Ambassador only gets you to 1141 rooms Title: Shocker. The Daily Oklahoma takes shot across Post by: Chicken Little on July 02, 2007, 11:12:53 am quote: Actually, that's exactly what it was like. D, I'm not badmouthing Tulsa, we're much better for the experience. And I think they are doing the best they can with the project that was handed to them. It's clear that the arena and convention center were the centerpiece of V2025. Offering up a paultry $2.1 million in a neighborhood "competition" to me provides ample evidence that nobody was thinking about neighborhoods when V2025 was "thunk" up. Neighborhoods were an afterthought. Trails, community centers, and other projects were all just little pieces of pork thrown in to get votes for the arena/convention center. I'm not saying those trails and things are bad...far from it. I'm simply describing the "visioning process" as I remember it. Unlike MAPS, V2025 wasn't well-planned or thought through. It was a panicky reaction to a sudden economic downturn. Most of the good ideas gathered prior to V2025 were ignored in favor of a knee-jerk "solution" to build facilities for conventions and events. Even at the time, however, many Tulsans were saying that tourism and conventions have much more to do with the quality and character of the city than with the facilities. People will meet in a dumpster in Las Vegas because it's Las Vegas. Likewise, you can build a first rate convention center in Boise and it'll still be Boise. Many Tulsans were saying that the arena convention center would have made a fine project down the line, after we had made other investments in neighborhoods, downtown housing, transit, i.e., things that would improve the quality of life for Tulsans. But as a first step, the facilities were premature. Since then, I've seen an improvement in the way Tulsan's think about the future...less panic, more community involvment, more forethought,...and that's the way it should be. The rejection of the Channels in favor of a much better River Plan is a remarkable improvement for Tulsa. All I'm saying is that MAPS has been that way all along and V2025 was, in comparison, a cluster****. I agree that V2025 represents a kind of forward momentum, but it also represents all that is bad about the way decisions are made in this town. But as I noted with the River Plan, that's changing. Title: Shocker. The Daily Oklahoma takes shot across Post by: Okiecrat on August 08, 2007, 10:24:17 am quote: If I am not mistaken, the big Bass Pro Shop in OKC was entirely built with tax money and leased at very favorable terms to Bass Pro. The Gaylords supposedly sold their stake in Bass Pro when it became public knowlege that they were benefitting financially from the bond proposals that they were promoting heavily in their newspaper and on their TV station. You can bet the farm that they were able to skim a sizable "take" off the MAPS projects. Title: Shocker. The Daily Oklahoma takes shot across Post by: Friendly Bear on August 08, 2007, 01:25:42 pm quote: In Economics 101, it's called the Law of Supply and Demand. If there were a DEMAND for Downtown hotel rooms, there WOULD DEFINITELY BE A SUPPLY. The actual supply may lag by a year the levelized demand, because it would take at least that long to get a new hotel built and operational. The hotel business is very cyclicle, driven by the tempo of both national and local economic activity. The tendency in the hotel industry is actually either feast or famine. When there is intensified demand for rooms, vacancies decline, and rack rates increase: The end result is OVERBUILDING. Resulting in OVER-SUPPLY of rooms. The resulting glut of rooms drives down rack-rates, and the poorer economic model/high cost hotels go out of business. The reason why there are no new hotels in downtown Tulsa? Simple: NO DEMAND. Nil. Zilch. Nada. Reason there is a new Renaissance Hotel and Convention Center at E. 71st and U.S. 169: DEMAND. If the new BOK Arena and remodeled Maxwell Convention Center are successful OVER TIME, then definitely there will be new hotels built downtown. And it could also be done without large injections of corporate welfare and other government subsidies. I don't think Mr. Hammonds got any government subsidies to build his shiny new Four-Star Hotel [^] Title: Shocker. The Daily Oklahoma takes shot across Post by: Aa5drvr on August 08, 2007, 02:50:40 pm I still laugh at the interview KRMG did with Hammons when his hotel had its grand opening out here.
They asked why he didnt build his new hotel downtown. His answer was like, (Big Sigh)"Well because nobody goes downtown. You have to build a hotel where the people are. A hotel doesnt attract people to an area." He went on to say that when he built his hotel that the hot real estate was either side of the Creek Tpk. Title: Shocker. The Daily Oklahoma takes shot across Post by: Friendly Bear on August 09, 2007, 06:26:42 am quote: I didn't hear the interview, but it is apparent from his track record that Mr. Hammonds knows a thing or two about the hotel industry. He knows that the Tulsa Metro Chamber Vision 2025 Vision of, "Build It and They Will Come", is shere lunacy. It only sounds sane if you're spending OPM: Other People's Money. Namely, taxpayer money. $100,000,000's gone into the pockets of the Flint and Rooney construction companies, as well as "wetting the beak" of the sole-sourced bond underwriting departments of two locally-owned banks. I doubt if the Arena or renovated convention center will foster enough economic revival to justify another hotel downtown.T The Arena will be a seldom-used White Elephant, vacumning the city budget for operating costs: Maintenance, cleaning, utilities, security, etc. The "buzz" about downtown is real, however, but small-scale and incremental like the Brady District and the Blue Dome District. They have attractions that make people want to come downtown. Unfortunately, most of both Blue Dome and Brady areas were flattened by urban renewal decades ago, and the former brick warehouse districts that they were formerly comprised, long gone... Nonetheless, they are slowly building up a critical mass to create, ultimately, a local destination location. Kind of like the Dallas West End, which in our last few years has actually been back on the decline. When the Spaghetti Warehouse took a gamble on a vacant cotton warehouse in the Dallas West End warehouse district back in the 1980's, they were literally the ownly restaurant around, surrounded by boarded up warehouses. SLOWLY, other restaurants, and later retail and hotels were attracted to the area. It was a slow, years-long process. And, besides the low-cost business model for their physical plant in old brick warehouses, the West End had something else to offer: The infamous Dealey Plaza is only a couple of blocks away. Would the San Antonio Riverwalk be as vibrant without The Alamo adjacent? Tulsa could actually do the same thing if they would tie Brady and Blue Dome Districts to a well-planned, well-executed, well-documented Museum of Remembrance & Reconciliation of the 1921 Tulsa Race Riot. John Hope Frankin could be the keynote speaker at the Ribbon-Cutting ceremony. THAT would provide the critical peripheral attraction like the Alamo and like Dealey Plaza to get people downtown, with the impacted Greenwood area only a short distance away. The proposed East Village Wal-Mart Superstore may make a difference downtown, because if you live or work downtown, it's also nice to be able to shop there, as well. Home Depot seems to be doing pretty well downtown. Title: Shocker. The Daily Oklahoma takes shot across Post by: Friendly Bear on August 09, 2007, 06:35:45 am quote: Sorry, I hit REPLY instead of EDIT of my earlier comments. I am NOT trying to generate VANITY posts to my own comment, Friends and Comrades. Title: Shocker. The Daily Oklahoma takes shot across Post by: Aa5drvr on August 09, 2007, 07:28:37 am We live on the line between Tulsa and "Fashionable North Bixby, Shhhhhh."
We really like taking visitors to McNellies downtown, because we can hit some of the sights on the way there and back. The shame of it is, once we go to McNellies, have a few drinks and dinner, we leave. There isnt really anything for us 40-50-somethings to do down there. If there is, the promotion is way off. Oft times we will stop at Los Cabos sit outside at the bar and listen to music and people watch. Seems like the DT venues are aimed at a much younger demographic. Title: Shocker. The Daily Oklahoma takes shot across Post by: joiei on August 09, 2007, 11:54:56 am Renaissance Tulsa Hotel & Convention Center is not a Mobil 4 star hotel, it is a AAA 4 Diamond hotel, and there is a big difference. It is a Mobil 3 star property. There are NO Mobil 4 Star or 5 Star properties in the state of Oklahoma. IF they say they have 4 stars, then they gave themselves those stars. That property isn't all that interesting, it looks like an Embassy suites on the inside. Very pedisterian in the interoir decoration department.
|