The Coffeville refinery is shut down for the summer, and gas prices spike in Tulsa...
Sounds like supply and demand, except for one detail...
Tulsa doesnt get gas from that refinery.
We cant even use the gas we refine at our own plant.
Tulsa's gas comes from the Gulf of Mexico, where they make the "special blend" were required to use to stay off the EPA's Dirty Air List.
What's wrong with this picture?
(http://www.kotv.com/newsimages/640/24fb6a04-3851-44a9-8c80-9c52b45b5b4d.jpg)
http://www.kotv.com/news/local/story/?id=130872
Why did a quart of oil stay at 75 cents for years after they raised the price of a gallon of gasoline?
Then suddenly one day they woke up and raised the price of the motor oil to $1.00 per quart with no fanfare, news report or notification, as if a memo had hit someones desktop.
quote:
Originally posted by patric
Sounds like supply and demand, except for one detail...
Tulsa doesnt get gas from that refinery.
....no kidding, and they predominately make fertilizer there. [:(!]
I hope the people put out from the flooding find good hospitality. The sizzle going on the west coast and more flooding in Texas today, I think the strength of man is getting bound up.
It's all a rip off. I understand many oil companies don't even want to build refineries because it'll lower the price of gasoline. Why would an oil company want to spend billions for a new refinery and the end result will be cheaper gasoline prices? They don't want that. They want the market tight. I don't think we will ever see gasoline below $2.00 a gallon anymore. The oil companies are getting the public used to $3.00 a gallon gasoline. When hurricane Cameal hit the Gulf coast in 1969 I don't remember gasoline prices skyrocketing back then. I was only a kid back then but no one talked about high gas prices from the hurricane in 1969. Today if a hurricane even gets near the Gulf Of Mexico the prices will jump $1.00 a gallon as it did in 2005, and they never fell back to where it was before.
Sometimes it's amusing to read the Whirled for what they dont report:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?articleID=070706_238_E1_spanc47180&breadcrumb=Energy
Well, according to the TW report, there's 108,000 barrels of gas and diesel being produced at that refinery every day, that's 4.5mm gallons- a big contributor to the region any way you slice it.
The fertilizer plant is a different facility.
I do agree that if the plant manager farts at a refinery it's cause for gas prices to rise.
I'm just hoping we get our snout in the trough for some of the repair/rebuilding they'll have to do at the CRR.
Gang, there's more to it than that, our fuel shot up 20+ cents overnight. It was $2.61 yesterday and today it's $2.95 unleaded regular. We (Ohio) don't even get fuel from the flooded refinery. Every station all over town is $2.95 no free market, no competive pricing just blam there it is, pay the price or walk.[xx(]
The plant manager at your local refinery must have farted then. [}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Well, according to the TW report, there's 108,000 barrels of gas and diesel being produced at that refinery every day, that's 4.5mm gallons- a big contributor to the region any way you slice it.
...The region being Oklmulgee, Muskogee, etc., but Tulsa's gas is supposed to come from a completely different source. The only way our gas prices should have been affected by the closing of that plant is if we were in violation of our agreement with the federal government.
So who's investigative court does this ball fall into, the state AG for price fixing or the EPA for breach of contract?
I think this whole gas price thing is a rip-off. The oil companies stumbled on a gold mine, they know gasoline is like food and we have to have it in todays modern world to survive. We have to pay whatever price they ask. We are captive... I noticed every time the pump prices dip to a certain level- boom! back up they go. Something always happends to put the prices right back up there, be it a refinery fire, a change~over from winter grade to summer grade fuel, refinery maintence, floods, hurricanes or just about anything else.
This spring they said fuel prices shot way up over $3.00 a gallon because of a combo of things that happend at the same time, refinery fires, change over from winter gasoline to summer gasoline, and refinery maintence shut downs. The gov't said it was unlikey gasoline would get over $2.71 this year (back in February), that's when the pump prices started to jump up. Early February in Ohio fuel was under $2.00 a gallon, then in less than two months time it was over $3.00 a gallon and kept going up... That's over a $1.00 a gallon hike in just 2 months.... I believe $4.00 a gallon fuel is not far off. At work we have a betting pool of when gasoline will hit $4.00 a gallon.. I bet we'll see $4.00 a gallon fuel next year.[xx(]
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Well, according to the TW report, there's 108,000 barrels of gas and diesel being produced at that refinery every day, that's 4.5mm gallons- a big contributor to the region any way you slice it.
The fertilizer plant is a different facility.
I do agree that if the plant manager farts at a refinery it's cause for gas prices to rise.
I'm just hoping we get our snout in the trough for some of the repair/rebuilding they'll have to do at the CRR.
http://www.coffeyvillegroup.com/petroleumRefining.asp
Just made a trip Fri-Sat-Sun to east Texas and regular unleaded there was as low at $2.72.9 per gallon. Average along the highway was $2.78.9 saw as high as $2.82.9, but did not see any as high $2.99.9 as I did when I left Tulsa.
Upon returning to Tulsa I see $3.09.9 per gallon not 8 hours after purchasing the same grade of fuel in Texas for $2.72.9 per gallon.
Something seems totally wrong with that high of difference in retail pricing of gasoline.
Biggest thing I notice in Texas is gasoline may vary 10 to 15 cents per gallon along a 5 mile stretch of road. At least it does not feel like price fixing is being done as it seems in the Tulsa Metro area.
I don't know how the retailers can say there isn't collusion in Tulsa pricing since they all go up or down together within hours of each other. Shell seems to be the most eager to post the price increase. If I see gas up .10 at Shell, I make for the nearest QT to put some gas in unless I waited too long.
I think Shell stations are just there for people who have been banned from QT for one reason or another.
:D
Hey, at Quik-Trip, as you're paying for your purchases, do they still ask "chips or anything else?"
Hey gang something is going on with the fuel prices, We just had a fuel hike from $3.05 to $3.19 a gallon. Shell & Speedway gas stations seem the most fast & eger to raise the prices, then in less than a hour the new price is all over town. I guess someone sneezed inside a refinery or something. Should a hurricane hit now we can expect to pass the $4.00 mark I do believe. I have not heard of any hurricanes brewing so far.[xx(]
KOTV is reporting another hike in prices coming this week (get this) due to Coffeyville. Just yesterday, I saw gas jump another 5-10 cents.
This is ludicrous. Does anyone know where we can find information regarding Tulsa's agreement with the EPA, and where to find out exactly where Tulsa's oil/fuel comes from???
I'm writing letters! [:(!]
This is all price Gouging, the fuel prices are still creeping up and no one knows of any rason for it. We (in Ohio) don't get fuel from Kansas. People's driving is down a bit too. I looked at the at web site www.gaspricewatch.com and fuel prices are up all over it seems. I wonder if the oil companies are doing it to see how high they can go and get away with it, and get everyone use-to $3.00 a gallon gasoline, then they will push $4.00 a gallon and fall back to $3.00 a gallon and everyone would think they are getting a bargan. The dollar hike in price per gallon in February-March '07 was one for the record books, the pump prices went from under $2.00 a gallon to over $3.00 a gallon in a short span of time- even though a barrel of oil came down in price during that time.[B)]
Some bits and pieces about our "Early Action Compacts" (EAC) with EPA:
"Like many other regions, Tulsa has experienced in recent weeks sharp increases in gasoline prices. Here's why: our local regulators have entered into an agreement with EPA so that a special gasoline with 8.2 Reid Vapor Pressure (RVP) is sold in Tulsa county during summer months. Tulsa is the only area in the nation where this particular gasoline is sold. As a result, no refiner manufactures it, but rather two different gasolines are mixed together to meet the 8.2 specification. Most of these two kinds of gasoline come from refineries on the Gulf Coast and are transported by pipeline to Tulsa. That was not a problem in 1999. Unfortunately, since last year, 98 counties in East Texas that are along the pipeline that connects Tulsa to the Gulf Coast refineries now require one of the gasolines that is blended to make Tulsa's fuel. That increased demand from motorists in the Texas counties caused an increase in the price of gasoline in our Tulsa market when the summer driving season began. Once again, this is a simple case of the relationship of supply, demand and price."
Written Statement of James McCarthy
General Manager, CITGO Petroleum Corporation
Before the Senate Agriculture Committee
July 20, 2000
http://agriculture.senate.gov/Hearings/Hearings_2000/July_20__2000/00720mcc.htm
A backbone of the program is the voluntary agreement of our gasoline suppliers to reduce the Reid Vapor Pressure (RVP) of gasoline provided at Tulsa area stations. Lowering the vapor pressure of gasoline reduces evaporation rates and provides significantly less hydrocarbon emissions within the Tulsa area during the ozone season.
http://www.incog.org/Environmental/AQ%20Curriculum/web%20June%2004/6-8%20Section%203.htm#Tulsa%20Ozone%20Alert%20Program
Making Tulsa's Voluntary RVP Program Mandatory
The backbone of Tulsa's ozone alert program has been the voluntary agreement of Tulsa's gasoline suppliers to reduce the Reid Vapor Pressure of gasoline provided at Tulsa area stations. In 1991 the voluntary reductions was to 8.5 psi from 9.0 psi. In 1995, gasoline RVP averaged 8.3 psi. The last two ozone seasons, the gasoline retailers in the Tulsa metro area voluntarily provided gasoline with a 7.8 RVP. A strategy to be considered for the Early Action Compact SIP could be to make this voluntary program mandatory by state or local rule making.
http://www.deq.state.ok.us/AQDnew/whatsnew/SIP/presentations/Control%20Strategies%20version%201.doc
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
Notice of Consent Decree Pursuant to the Clean Air Act
In accordance with Departmental Policy and 28 CFR 50.7, notice is
hereby given that a proposed Consent Decree in United States of America
v. Sun Co. Inc. (R&M), Civil Action No. 97-CV-104H, was lodged in the
United States District Court for the Northern District of Oklahoma on
August 14, 1997. The proposed Consent Decree settles the United States
claims for injunctive relief and civil penalties in the Complaint.
Under the terms of the proposed Agreement and Order, Sun Co. Inc.
(R&M) (``Sun'') will pay a civil penalty, perform two supplemental
environmental projects (``SEPs''), and perform injunctive relief. The
cash amount of the civil penalty is $100,000. The first SEP will reduce
the reid vapor pressure of the 87 octane gasoline sold through non-
pipeline transactions in the Tulsa area during the 1997 Ozone Season
from 8.2 to 8.0. The second SEP will provide $50,000 worth of free bus
service in Tulsa County on ozone alert days.
http://www.epa.gov/fedrgstr/EPA-GENERAL/1997/August/Day-28/g22883.htm
Do I understand correctly from what patric posted, only 87 octane gas is the special stuff? If so - why are the other grades going up in price as well?
Can't be - I'm missing something or reading too much into it.
Also - was Sun being punished for something it did or didn't do? Seems that the punishment is being used to rape consumers now.
Nah - I'm just paranoid.
Thanks for the information, patric. I did a little searching of my own this afternoon, but the whole not knowing where to look thing really didn't help.
Thanks again!
Still lower in Henderson, Texas than in Bartlesville. Tonight in Bartlesville Quick Trip was at $3.18 per gallon.
http://www.gaspricewatch.com/new/default_V3.asp
Type in Henderson, Texas and check their Regular Unleaded Gas prices. I paid $2.72 there Sunday night heading back to Tulsa just 320 miles North of Henderson.
Tulsa QT price when I hit town early Monday moring was $3.09 ? ? ?
I think it was $3.09 yesterday, and went up to $3.19 today in Tulsa. Just bought $54 worth of gas myself.
*Luckily* (I say luckily in a way that doesn't make $3/gallon sound good) it's still $2.99 - $3.04 in Skiatook, but I expect prices to jump in the morning.
It was maybe 10-12 years ago I remember gas hitting 75 cents a gallon. (Im young so thats the cheapest Ive ever seen)
quote:
Originally posted by YoungTulsan
It was maybe 10-12 years ago I remember gas hitting 75 cents a gallon. (Im young so thats the cheapest Ive ever seen)
Me, too. My car used to fill up for $10 (12 gallon tank). Now it takes about $35. There's something wrong with that!
I remember when dad wouldn't visit the full-service station (Skiatook still had one until about 5 years ago) because gas was $1.10/gal.
I am not that old as I am far from collecting Social Security benefis, when I first started driving, gasoline cost 16 cents per gallon, and a Cheeseburger was around 14 cents, a soda pop in a glass bottle was a nickle with the deposit of 2 cents on the glass bottle.
That came with full service, with two or more lane attendants that checked your tire pressure, cleaned you windshield, checked and topped off your oil, and other lubricants, checked you belts and condition of all visible engine components. Collected payment from you and said Thank You, I appreciate your business with a big smile, and you never left the comfort of the front seat of your car.
For over 100 years Gasoline sold for less than 99 cents per gallon. However, within less than ten years after moving above one dollar per gallon, it topped $3.50 per gallon.
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
I am not that old as I am far from collecting Social Security benefis, when I first started driving, gasoline cost 16 cents per gallon, and a Cheeseburger was around 14 cents, a soda pop in a glass bottle was a nickle with the deposit of 2 cents on the glass bottle.
Lets dissect this for a moment....
Gas, from $0.16 to $3.19
Cheeseburger, from $0.14 to $0.99 (sometimes as low as $0.49 when McDonalds feels sassy)
Bottle of pop, from $0.05 to $1.19 (PLUS it is now in a plastic bottle, and they don't use real sugar)
From the looks of things, the pop industry is gouging us just as much, if not more, than the gas industry. The product has gotten a lot worse, and the prices are outrageous. A bottle of pop should run about 30-50 cents these days. The pop companies really have us by the balls. It is all marketing, and the market accepting the price.
Cheeseburgers are a pretty good deal, considering :D
Hang on tight. I heard that the fuel prices are still about to go higher, perhaps another .35 cents to 50 cents depending on what part of the country you live in. I guess another refinery is starting to sputter out and the market will lose another 87,000 barrels of oil. The worst is yet to come. In the fall we can expect another big hike as the refineries shut down for maintence and the change over to winter grade gasoline. When fuel hits over $3.50 a gallon it crimps many people's driving. This is all nuts -like the other post mentioned above for over 100 years gasoline was under $1.00 a gallon then it suddenly jumped up and stayed there, it seemed to go up big time after those hurricanes in 2005 and never really fully came back down..It's all a rip off.
When I bought my truck in 1999, it would cost about $22 to $25 to fill it. It's most recently around $68.
Is it just me, or does anyone else feel like they are being held down and raped everytime they fill up?
A quart of oil . . .
Most is bottled locally, just as bottled water and soda pop, as it costs way too much to ship water or oil around the U.S. via a 5-mpg diesel truck or Train. The refineries simply put the refined oil with specific additives into the perspective client's bottles, or generic black bottles with a stick on label. All motor oil passes an API standard and for the most part sans the additives it is all basically the same product, different viscosity that means the thickness of the product, but still the same stuff in the bottles. Different viscosity oil is used, based on the types of bearings being lubricated in the device based on the engineers' design.
Oil reminds me of milk, you have your 100% milk that is processed Pasteurized and Homogenized, but has most everything in it when it came from the Cow and it is a thicker viscosity. They you have the 2% variety, kind of like decaffeinated coffee, never quite understood the logic of that, seems like de-THCed marijuana or something. The 2% variety is much thinner lower viscosity, however in Milk it tends to cost more for less? Oil on the other hand seems to run the same price thick or thin.
Would seem you are getting more for your money with the thicker variety in Oil to me as it comes off the lower part of the cracking tower, however I do know that Nitro Methane comes off the higher part of the tower, it is much thinner and costs way more. So in these cases perhaps thinner is better, or at least higher priced in most cases, other than with the Quart of Oil which remains the same price straight 40 weight or 10w40 . . .
Dollar General and Family Dollar were both selling quart of oil for 75 cents up until about six months ago, when someone up top had a light bulb come on in their brain. They then raised it to 1.00 per quart, then a couple of months ago it shot up to $1.25 per quart.
Thought it was interesting to watch the price of OIL which is made from petroleum staying at the 75 cent mark, while the price of gasoline which is made in the same cracking tower as the oil was fluctuating all over the dial. LOL
Speaking of real sugar, back in the day before the Cuba/Russia politics, some of our sugar came from Cuba. I recall it was more of a larger chunk and had a golden tint to it.
Seemed to melt in Iced Tea much easier than this white stuff they pawn off on us today.
Were there as many folks diagnosed with diabetes back then? Makes you wonder sometimes...
On the OIL and GAS thread....
Why is there not a retail or member only high volume discount pump station located at or near the refineries? Guess you have to own a Tanker Truck to get the the discount price on fuel...
Most any other product you buy, most times you get a discount in larger quanities or volume purchase. Does not seem to be the case with gasoline. Even a gallon of Oil is priced same as a single quart and comes in one versus four containers.
Recycle Michael, on the gallon versus quart pricing can you splain that to us?
You can still buy select brands of regfrigerated soda pop at Sam's, Wal Mart and their Neighrhood Market stores out of the soda machine for a quarter. Albertsons at one time had the quarter pop machines also.
Now walk into a Quik Trip, and it is a totally different deal, PLUS you pay TAX at QT, where at the vending machine there is NO TAX collected on your purchase.
(http://www.grapette.com/grf/card_drink.jpg)
I perfer the Grapette at the quarter machines, actually it is quite a treat on a hot day. I used to stock the Grapette in the two vending machines in front of Oertle's store on Memorial during the summer months in the late 1960's. I turned the temp dial down to the slushy stage on one of the machines. Those soda pops were some of the best in those days.
I have been trying to stay out of this discussion. This is a real point of anger for me. What is happening at the pump should be criminal. It is unethical and immoral to bend society over and rape and pillage like this. They will continue to up the price until the market suffers. Then it will stay at unreasonably high prices.
The record profits these companies are making show that the prices do NOT need to go up for them to make money. All the talk about summer and winter grades, refineries having to do maintenance, etc. are mere excuses. All those things had to be done when gas was below $1 a gallon, too - but the price didn't go up seasonally, or when somebody spilled a gallon.
The government will do NOTHING because money talks and BS walks. Since votes can be bought - even talk about about not voting for certain politicians is nothing but BS in their eyes.
All the new hybrids, all the advancements in MPG on our cars, all the environmental education and changes being made have not lowered the price of one gallon of gas - so all that is BS, too.
High gas prices are apparently good for the economy overall - otherwise the government would stop this. Just not good for my budget.
Wish there was a grassroots movement to get our collective voice heard.
quote:
Originally posted by restored2x
Wish there was a grassroots movement to get our collective voice heard.
We
are the grassroots movement. When something bothers us so much that we start to talk to others that have the same problem and want something done, that's a start. Then they join forces and take over the world. Oh, wait.
Actually, there already are some grassroots movements out there. Unfortunately, most of the ones I've found are only there demanding "gas out" days...ew.
I just found a website on the Dept. of Energy's website that we all need to visit: Gaswatch.
quote:
The Department of Energy is very concerned about the impact of gasoline prices on American families. While we are working to address longer term supply issues, we're also working to make sure American families are being treated fairly. If you believe there may be price-gouging, or price-fixing, please contact your local authorities and fill out the form below.
http://gaswatch.energy.gov/ (//%22http://gaswatch.energy.gov/%22)
quote:
Originally posted by restored2x
I have been trying to stay out of this discussion. This is a real point of anger for me. What is happening at the pump should be criminal. It is unethical and immoral to bend society over and rape and pillage like this. They will continue to up the price until the market suffers. Then it will stay at unreasonably high prices.
The record profits these companies are making show that the prices do NOT need to go up for them to make money. All the talk about summer and winter grades, refineries having to do maintenance, etc. are mere excuses. All those things had to be done when gas was below $1 a gallon, too - but the price didn't go up seasonally, or when somebody spilled a gallon.
The government will do NOTHING because money talks and BS walks. Since votes can be bought - even talk about about not voting for certain politicians is nothing but BS in their eyes.
All the new hybrids, all the advancements in MPG on our cars, all the environmental education and changes being made have not lowered the price of one gallon of gas - so all that is BS, too.
High gas prices are apparently good for the economy overall - otherwise the government would stop this. Just not good for my budget.
Wish there was a grassroots movement to get our collective voice heard.
This should wake up anyone who still believes that Democrats are still fighting for the "little guy". Granted, the oil industry is un-regulated. However, there has been little more than token talking about the issue in the Democrat-led Congress.
This reaches into our wallets at more than the pump. Processing and transportation costs for raw materials and finished goods are sky-rocketing.
Congress is wasting time on digging into the firing of eight (probably over-paid) prosecutors and still felching around the Libby scandal rather than getting to the bottom of why millions of American consumers are being gratuitously ripped off by the oil companies.
There, I made it political. [;)]
(http://www.kotv.com/newsimages/316/a03ebe62-649b-4afc-a9b0-70fc17edca7d.jpg)
Which brings us back to the question...
Were Tulsa retailers violating our agreement with the EPA by using Coffeyville gas all this time? (And were we paying a markup for the "special blend" that was being mis-represented?)
...or are we actually using the reduced Reid Vapor Pressure (RVP) blend gas were supposed to be using (that's piped in from the Gulf Coast) and the Coffeyville plant disaster is just a pretext to raise prices locally?
Sofar, none of our brick-and-mortar media are even addressing the question (or doing little more than repackaging the local AAA spokesman).
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by restored2x
I have been trying to stay out of this discussion. This is a real point of anger for me. What is happening at the pump should be criminal. It is unethical and immoral to bend society over and rape and pillage like this. They will continue to up the price until the market suffers. Then it will stay at unreasonably high prices.
The record profits these companies are making show that the prices do NOT need to go up for them to make money. All the talk about summer and winter grades, refineries having to do maintenance, etc. are mere excuses. All those things had to be done when gas was below $1 a gallon, too - but the price didn't go up seasonally, or when somebody spilled a gallon.
The government will do NOTHING because money talks and BS walks. Since votes can be bought - even talk about about not voting for certain politicians is nothing but BS in their eyes.
All the new hybrids, all the advancements in MPG on our cars, all the environmental education and changes being made have not lowered the price of one gallon of gas - so all that is BS, too.
High gas prices are apparently good for the economy overall - otherwise the government would stop this. Just not good for my budget.
Wish there was a grassroots movement to get our collective voice heard.
This should wake up anyone who still believes that Democrats are still fighting for the "little guy". Granted, the oil industry is un-regulated. However, there has been little more than token talking about the issue in the Democrat-led Congress.
This reaches into our wallets at more than the pump. Processing and transportation costs for raw materials and finished goods are sky-rocketing.
Congress is wasting time on digging into the firing of eight (probably over-paid) prosecutors and still felching around the Libby scandal rather than getting to the bottom of why millions of American consumers are being gratuitously ripped off by the oil companies.
There, I made it political. [;)]
There is no such thing in our day and age as a politician of any affiliation being for the little guy.
Politics are about money and power - period. You can choose Pepsi or Coke - but it's still just soda. They are all a bunch of bull-crappers who live in their own world and say whatever sells to the rest of us.
Show me just ONE politician who is truly passionate about anything. Gore and the environment? More political bullcrap and hypocrisy - his monthly electric bill is half my yearly salary!
Anyone who even talks about the need for a third party alternative is treated like they wear aluminum foil hats to protect against alien brain upload.
Party and national politics is a joke. Time wasted on campaigning and arguing about national politics amounts to nothing more than does farting in a windstorm.
Needless to say - I am not looking forward to the upcoming election year. I loathe it. Whoever gets in as our new president, Coke or Pepsi - same crap - different label.
quote:
All motor oil passes an API standard and for the most part sans the additives it is all basically the same product, different viscosity that means the thickness of the product, but still the same stuff in the bottles. Different viscosity oil is used, based on the types of bearings being lubricated in the device based on the engineers' design.
That's a dangerously incomplete understanding.
Check out the forums at www.bobistheoilguy.com to get a taste of oil. Is the oil Group II? Group III with a little IV and called synthetic? Group IV with a little Group I to hold the additives? Boutique-style mainly Group V, only available at your local speed shop? Each group of molecules has different characteristics and the overall characteristics of the oil depends on those ratios and how they interact with that oil's specific additive package. It's not so simple...
None the less, why doesn't the price of motor oil fluctuate as much as gasoline? It's amazing that there's so little "wiggle room" in the industry that the price of gas can jump by 10-20% based on investor's feelings or pie-in-the-sky prognostications. If the refinery in Kansas accounts for 1/7 (14%) of gasoline produced in the states and we get our gas from them, we should be paying about $3.45 per gallon - a 14% increase from a week or so ago. But then there's this low vapor pressure blend that supposedly is the ONLY stuff we use... Hm...
Recently, Tulsa enjoyed some of the lowest gas prices in the nation. Now we're a good bit closer to average. Somebody realized the potential for more money and increased prices arbitrarily.
quote:
Originally posted by restored2x
There is no such thing in our day and age as a politician of any affiliation being for the little guy.
Politics are about money and power - period. You can choose Pepsi or Coke - but it's still just soda. They are all a bunch of bull-crappers who live in their own world and say whatever sells to the rest of us.
Show me just ONE politician who is truly passionate about anything. Gore and the environment? More political bullcrap and hypocrisy - his monthly electric bill is half my yearly salary!
Anyone who even talks about the need for a third party alternative is treated like they wear aluminum foil hats to protect against alien brain upload.
Party and national politics is a joke. Time wasted on campaigning and arguing about national politics amounts to nothing more than does farting in a windstorm.
Needless to say - I am not looking forward to the upcoming election year. I loathe it. Whoever gets in as our new president, Coke or Pepsi - same crap - different label.
I mainly did that as a dig on the last few libs on this forum who believe voting Democrat will dig us out of the morass in Washington.
You haven't been around the forum for very long to know me yet. I'm a registered non-party-line-voting Republican and equal-opportunity lampooner of both parties.
I came to the conclusion long ago that legislators are nothing but conduits for the real power in Washington- the lobbyists.
You and I have very similar views on gov't. [;)]
Oh Gore, not only about the electric bill, how about he's invested up to his neck in green technology?
quote:
Originally posted by patric
(http://www.kotv.com/newsimages/316/a03ebe62-649b-4afc-a9b0-70fc17edca7d.jpg)
Which brings us back to the question...
Were Tulsa retailers violating our agreement with the EPA by using Coffeyville gas all this time? (And were we paying a markup for the "special blend" that was being mis-represented?)
...or are we actually using the reduced Reid Vapor Pressure (RVP) blend gas were supposed to be using (that's piped in from the Gulf Coast) and the Coffeyville plant disaster is just a pretext to raise prices locally?
Sofar, none of our brick-and-mortar media are even addressing the question (or doing little more than repackaging the local AAA spokesman).
"Chuck Mai with the AAA tells us why..."[;)]
Patric, I don't know about us getting gas from Coffeyville. However, let's say abritrarily Kansas City gets most of it's 87 unleaded from C'ville. Now that refinery is closed, they have to get gas from somewhere, perhaps the Gulf Coast where we supposedly get our gas which supposedly stretches refining capacity from there and perhaps other refineries.
I'm not sure what total gas and diesel consumption is in the U.S. every day, but taking 4.1 mm gal off the market is significant. .40 per gallon significant? I don't think it should be.
In many cases The gov't is making alot of money on these high fuel prices because people spend more on fuel,thus they also pay more in taxes. This is very bad, fuel costs more than a gallon of milk and the average guy can't even take his family on a car trip anymore and every summer for the past few years it's the same old story they raise the prices on the pumps sky high, with some excuse. Back in the by-gone eras it was never like this. Some of the mess can be blamed on the enviromental wackos for making all those restrictions on gasoline and not letting anyone drill for more oil or build refineries. We still can't drill in Alaska. The gov't is also partly to blame too. The pump prices jump 20-30 cents per day. Then prices fall at only pennies at a time, reach a lower level then here comes another 30 cent hike overnight..[xx(]
Sauer- I think we've covered this ground before. I believe the gov't tax is a flat rate per gallon, not a percentage of the sales price. Not sure how Ohio assesses their fuel taxes.
Here is a graph of the last 30 day retail price in the Tulsa area.
http://www.oklahomagasprices.com/retail_price_chart.aspx
Oklahoma adds seventeen cents per gallon for gasoline and fourteen cents per gallon of diesel then adds another penny for an underground storage tank cleanup fund to each.
Kansas has 25 and 27 for each, Arkansas 22 and 23 for each. Only Alaska, Wyoming and New Jersey charge less state gasoline tax than Oklahoma.
That is why our roads stink.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Sauer- I think we've covered this ground before. I believe the gov't tax is a flat rate per gallon, not a percentage of the sales price. Not sure how Ohio assesses their fuel taxes.
Yes, but some states have a sales tax on fuel on top of the cents per gallon tax. The higher the fuel cost the more money the state gets in sales taxes. Indiana has a sales tax on gasoline as do many other states. last year Indiana thought about doing away with it, but decided to keep it for bridge & road repair.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by restored2x
There is no such thing in our day and age as a politician of any affiliation being for the little guy.
Politics are about money and power - period. You can choose Pepsi or Coke - but it's still just soda. They are all a bunch of bull-crappers who live in their own world and say whatever sells to the rest of us.
Show me just ONE politician who is truly passionate about anything. Gore and the environment? More political bullcrap and hypocrisy - his monthly electric bill is half my yearly salary!
Anyone who even talks about the need for a third party alternative is treated like they wear aluminum foil hats to protect against alien brain upload.
Party and national politics is a joke. Time wasted on campaigning and arguing about national politics amounts to nothing more than does farting in a windstorm.
Needless to say - I am not looking forward to the upcoming election year. I loathe it. Whoever gets in as our new president, Coke or Pepsi - same crap - different label.
I mainly did that as a dig on the last few libs on this forum who believe voting Democrat will dig us out of the morass in Washington.
You haven't been around the forum for very long to know me yet. I'm a registered non-party-line-voting Republican and equal-opportunity lampooner of both parties.
I came to the conclusion long ago that legislators are nothing but conduits for the real power in Washington- the lobbyists.
You and I have very similar views on gov't. [;)]
Oh Gore, not only about the electric bill, how about he's invested up to his neck in green technology?
Conan:
I don't know you - but I think I like you.
We need a bunch of likeminded people to get up in arms (not literally) and show some vision and passion for making our nation work. Maybe it will never be done on a grand scale again - but perhaps we can make a difference locally.
Maybe this board can make a small dent in local policy and direction - and still be apolitical.
quote:
Originally posted by restored2x
Conan:
I don't know you - but I think I like you.
Great...a love connection.
We were talking about motor oil...not massage oil.
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
quote:
Originally posted by restored2x
Conan:
I don't know you - but I think I like you.
Great...a love connection.
We were talking about motor oil...not massage oil.
I always heard these kinds of things happened on the internet but was never a believer until now. [}:)]
quote:
Originally posted by buckeye
quote:
All motor oil passes an API standard and for the most part sans the additives it is all basically the same product, different viscosity that means the thickness of the product, but still the same stuff in the bottles. Different viscosity oil is used, based on the types of bearings being lubricated in the device based on the engineers' design.
That's a dangerously incomplete understanding.
Check out the forums at www.bobistheoilguy.com to get a taste of oil. Is the oil Group II? Group III with a little IV and called synthetic? Group IV with a little Group I to hold the additives? Boutique-style mainly Group V, only available at your local speed shop? Each group of molecules has different characteristics and the overall characteristics of the oil depends on those ratios and how they interact with that oil's specific additive package. It's not so simple...
Pretty simple to me, I just walk into the Dollar General store and buy oil that is stocked on their shelf. Pour it into the crankcase of what ever vehicle I am driving at the time an go on down the road. I have 302,000 miles on one truck, 282,000 on a second and 196,000 on a third, and all of them have been running on Dollar General or Family Dollar gereric brand oil since I first bought them.
I have built race engines that burn Nitro Methane fuel and the only change in oil for them was to run straight 60 weight that we got for free from the local oil distributor. Other Pro Stock engines, Dirt Track engines I have built I run the same old Dollar General oil in with no oil related failures that I have seen. I have always assembled the engines with the same oil we run in them as well. Few of them have set National Records and won four chanmionships over the past three years so I can't complain about the performance from that oil. :)
I have friends that run Red Line and other synthetics that swear by them. Curley Sutton used to run DA Oil that was distributed our of West Tulsa. I have never been much of a advocate of oil, just keep it clean, filtered and refresh it every 3,000 miles in normal duty wear for street use. Running a good oil filter is probably the most important part of motor oil maintenance. All petroleum based oil comes from basically the same place, out of the ground. It all wears out, all gets dirty, all breaks down with escessive heat. If the engine is tuned properly and not under undue stress most brands of motor oil will supply adequate lubrication.
The sales rep for Slick 50 carried around with him a 5 hp Briggs & Stratton Engine that had a plexiglass cover exposing the view of the con rod and crank. He ran that same engine for years during his demonstration talks, with zero oil in it.
He gave me a contaiiner of Slick 50 and asked if I had any old motorcycles out back that we had little or not money in and could do a test with. I replied sure a few of them. He suggested we treat one with Slick 50, then drain out all the oil, remove the oil filter and ride the motorcycle on the street, highway and around town for two days and he would be back on the third day to check up.
We used a Kawasaki KZ 400 which had plain bearings both on the crankshaft ane on the camshaft. It had solid lifters with no hydraulics so it would function with no oil.
I rode that motorcycle to Owasso, and back to Tulsa on Highway 169, I rode it to Sand Springs and back to Tulsa on Highway 412, I rode in back and forth to my house in stop and go city traffic. I took friends with me for rides, pointed out it had NO Oil drain plug or Oil Filter in it, and the Oil Light stayed on bright the entire time we rode around on it.
On the third day, the Slick 50 salesman returned, we serviced the engine with motor oil and installed a new filter and to the best of my knoledge that thing may still be running today. It never created any knocking noises, or exibited any sounds that any metal breakdown was occuring. It did make more noise running than one with oil in it, but I did not notice much difference in performaance or other mechanical problems.
Sure made a believer out of me that the Slick 50 product reduces friction and wear.
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
The sales rep for Slick 50 carried around with him a 5 hp Briggs & Stratton Engine that had a plexiglass cover exposing the view of the con rod and crank. He ran that same engine for years during his demonstration talks, with zero oil in it.
He gave me a contaiiner of Slick 50 and asked if I had any old motorcycles out back that we had little or not money in and could do a test with. I replied sure a few of them. He suggested we treat one with Slick 50, then drain out all the oil, remove the oil filter and ride the motorcycle on the street, highway and around town for two days and he would be back on the third day to check up.
We used a Kawasaki KZ 400 which had plain bearings both on the crankshaft ane on the camshaft. It had solid lifters with no hydraulics so it would function with no oil.
I rode that motorcycle to Owasso, and back to Tulsa on Highway 169, I rode it to Sand Springs and back to Tulsa on Highway 412, I rode in back and forth to my house in stop and go city traffic. I took friends with me for rides, pointed out it had NO Oil drain plug or Oil Filter in it, and the Oil Light stayed on bright the entire time we rode around on it.
On the third day, the Slick 50 salesman returned, we serviced the engine with motor oil and installed a new filter and to the best of my knoledge that thing may still be running today. It never created any knocking noises, or exibited any sounds that any metal breakdown was occuring. It did make more noise running than one with oil in it, but I did not notice much difference in performaance or other mechanical problems.
Sure made a believer out of me that the Slick 50 product reduces friction and wear.
They did a TV commerical about a car that ran with no oil coast to coast many years ago. If Slick 50 is so good why don't the car companies use it in their new engines it'll save them a ton on warranty work? That is a big question for me. As for buying Dollar General oil, I have found their oil is not all that cheap. Wal-Mart oil is cheaper as is some auto parts stores like Auto Zone.
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
The sales rep for Slick 50 carried around with him a 5 hp Briggs & Stratton Engine that had a plexiglass cover exposing the view of the con rod and crank. He ran that same engine for years during his demonstration talks, with zero oil in it.
He gave me a contaiiner of Slick 50 and asked if I had any old motorcycles out back that we had little or not money in and could do a test with. I replied sure a few of them. He suggested we treat one with Slick 50, then drain out all the oil, remove the oil filter and ride the motorcycle on the street, highway and around town for two days and he would be back on the third day to check up.
We used a Kawasaki KZ 400 which had plain bearings both on the crankshaft ane on the camshaft. It had solid lifters with no hydraulics so it would function with no oil.
I rode that motorcycle to Owasso, and back to Tulsa on Highway 169, I rode it to Sand Springs and back to Tulsa on Highway 412, I rode in back and forth to my house in stop and go city traffic. I took friends with me for rides, pointed out it had NO Oil drain plug or Oil Filter in it, and the Oil Light stayed on bright the entire time we rode around on it.
On the third day, the Slick 50 salesman returned, we serviced the engine with motor oil and installed a new filter and to the best of my knoledge that thing may still be running today. It never created any knocking noises, or exibited any sounds that any metal breakdown was occuring. It did make more noise running than one with oil in it, but I did not notice much difference in performaance or other mechanical problems.
Sure made a believer out of me that the Slick 50 product reduces friction and wear.
Did you ride around with your hand ready to grab the clutch for the potential lock-up at any second?
I've been through a few hair-raising lock-ups.
Flooded Refinery Affecting Gas Prices
An Oklahoma state representative is accusing gas stations of price fixing. Oklahoma City state Representative Mike Shelton says he wants a full-scale investigation by the Oklahoma Attorney General, but News On 6 anchor Scott Thompson reports experts say Oklahoma's high gas prices start in Kansas.
Dewey Bartlett is just one of the oilmen who say the closure in Coffeyville is the number one reason we're paying more for gas.
http://www.kotv.com/news/local/story/?id=131334
Dewey Bartlett didnt bother to mention that we're supposed to be getting our gas from the Gulf Coast, where supplies arent affected by the flood (or maybe News On 6 anchor Scott Thompson didnt ask).
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
let's say abritrarily Kansas City gets most of it's 87 unleaded from C'ville. Now that refinery is closed, they have to get gas from somewhere, perhaps the Gulf Coast where we supposedly get our gas which supposedly stretches refining capacity from there and perhaps other refineries.
That's a plausible scenario, and if that were the case here, why not just report that instead of using half-truths or smoke-and-mirrors?
Patric-
Mainly because I don't think the media cares to dig anymore than they have to. Just bust out a headline about the high gas prices and people will tune in, regardless of what crap finally makes it into the story.
The cost of gas isn't even likely registering with the TV and radio news types much since they can travel in employer-provided vehicles on the company gas card.
I've slowly gained the personal belief that a lot of journalism these days starts out with a certain conclusion by the journalist which is bolstered by seletively interviewing only those who will make statements supporting whatever the point is the reporter thinks people need to know.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Mainly because I don't think the media cares to dig anymore than they have to. Just bust out a headline about the high gas prices and people will tune in, regardless of what crap finally makes it into the story.
I was thinking AAA and all the "experts" the media have been quoting, but yes, the news reporting on this subject has been superficial fluff at best.
quote:
Originally posted by patric
Flooded Refinery Affecting Gas Prices
An Oklahoma state representative is accusing gas stations of price fixing. Oklahoma City state Representative Mike Shelton says he wants a full-scale investigation by the Oklahoma Attorney General, but News On 6 anchor Scott Thompson reports experts say Oklahoma's high gas prices start in Kansas.
Dewey Bartlett is just one of the oilmen who say the closure in Coffeyville is the number one reason we're paying more for gas.
http://www.kotv.com/news/local/story/?id=131334
Dewey Bartlett didnt bother to mention that we're supposed to be getting our gas from the Gulf Coast, where supplies arent affected by the flood (or maybe News On 6 anchor Scott Thompson didnt ask).
That was a good article. I also read a story in the Indianapolis Star that said much the same thing. Fuel will keep going up and is expected to peak around $3.50 - $3.60 per gallon. I guess another refinery is on the skids and is sputtering they are having mech problems. They run 87,000 barrels per day.. Fuel prices are higher now then when the hurricane closed many refineries in 2005. If a hurricane hits now in 2007 we may be seeing $4.50 or $5.00 a gallon gasoline easy.
those of us filling up for $1 a gal with natural gas are laughing right now.
this is all the more reason why refineries should be nationalized until there are enough to have a true market economy.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
those of us filling up for $1 a gal with natural gas are laughing right now.
this is all the more reason why refineries should be nationalized until there are enough to have a true market economy.
I was always against having the oil markets nationalized, I believe in the free market, but this is not free at all, it's a monolopy. This is nuts. The gas prices are not falling and we had $3.00 a gallon fuel all summer long.. I favor the nationalized markets now, we have nothing to lose, as it is now each year it gets worse & worse, can't afford to drive.. This is getting very bad and if it keeps up it can ruin the American economy, drain people's savings and retirement accounts. Natural gas is the way to go, it has some drawbacks because if you drive away from home you may not be able to fill-up, but if they set up a network of nat. gas stations we'll have it made. it also burns cleaner than gasoline. Here in Ohio I don't know any place that does the conversions over to nat. gas- nor how much it costs. But if everyone switched over to nat. gas you can bet those prices will go up to around $3.00 a gallon too, the oil companies will get into the nat. gas business since they already have the stations and distribution system. So what ever fuel we use, we will be hosed. (People who use nat. gas in their homes could fill up at home)
I'll tell ya something else that is a big rip-off, it's that ethenoal blend they are trying to force on us. It does not have the bang per gallon of gasoline, It builds up more carbon in your engine, your miles per gallon drops and it increases corn and food prices. It's totally nuts to use a product that is also used for food as a engine fuel. The using of that E-85 is also nuts and it's not much cheaper than gasoline and your mileage drops way down. Why don't they start a push to use natural gas instead of that E-85 junk? No one is even talking about natural gas as a fuel, we have plenty of it and it's currently cheap- (but I know it won't stay cheap if everyone started to use it).
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by AMP
The sales rep for Slick 50 carried around with him a 5 hp Briggs & Stratton Engine that had a plexiglass cover exposing the view of the con rod and crank. He ran that same engine for years during his demonstration talks, with zero oil in it.
Did you ride around with your hand ready to grab the clutch for the potential lock-up at any second?
I've been through a few hair-raising lock-ups.
Actually I was not believing his story line during his presentation and that is what got the demonstration started. He offered to pay for any internal bearing or mechanical damages to the engine should it sustain any during the torture test. I could not pass this deal up. An offer to intentionally damage an engine, plus get paid to perform the repairs, too sweet.
Yes I absolutly rode the first few miles using the "two finger two stroke twitch" on the clutch lever. But the more I thought about how the transmission and engine share the same oil in most of those japanese engineered engines, it would not of done much had the output shaft bearing siezed while doing 70mph down the highway. Gary Thomas, who now owns Bulldog Security at the Cains Ballroom was the passenger who rode from Owasso to Tulsa on the thing a couple of times we me. Jay Osborn, who now works in ground vehicle and facility maintenance at American Airlines was the mechanic that treated the engine and removed the oil filter. Jim Sharp and Pat Davidson were the mechanics at the dealership. None of us could believe the thing held together. Everyone would look at it and just shake their heads.
I did wear my race leathers the first few times out on the highway during the test just to be safe. Once I discoverd the thing was not going to sieze, under normal use, we hammered the thing a few times doing some burnouts and running it up to the red line through the gears. Never had a problem.
Glad there was no bet made on that deal, I would of lost it.
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
I'll tell ya something else that is a big rip-off, it's that ethenoal blend they are trying to force on us. It does not have the bang per gallon of gasoline, It builds up more carbon in your engine, your miles per gallon drops and it increases corn and food prices. It's totally nuts to use a product that is also used for food as a engine fuel. The using of that E-85 is also nuts and it's not much cheaper than gasoline and your mileage drops way down. Why don't they start a push to use natural gas instead of that E-85 junk? No one is even talking about natural gas as a fuel, we have plenty of it and it's currently cheap- (but I know it won't stay cheap if everyone started to use it).
Actually Tom Sewell with Tulsa Gas Technologies has the best answer to today's high cost of energy, just as mentioned before. Compressed Natural Gas, it is a wise and cost effective choice. As with anything mechanical or analog, the downside is the initial cost of conversion and locating a retail refilling station. Or investing in a home or office refilling compressor pump system.
Upside is reduced contamination of motor oil, reduced wear on piston rings and mechanical parts (your engine lasts longer) and of course the obvious instant savings on what it costs to propel your vehicle per mile.
For information on CNG check out Tulsa Gas Tech
http://www.tulsagastech.com/
_______________________________________________
Old Drag Racing saying was Gasoline is for getting to the track, Alcohol is for drinking the victory toast, and Nitro Methane is for Racing.
There are charts showing the BTU energy from burning specific forms of liquid fuels. Actually Methanol is one of the lower ones and requires more fuel to produce the same amount of BTU compared to gasoline or diesel which is
one of the higher ones.
(http://www.smokemup.com/tech/fuels.php)
Advantage to running Methanol in racing engines is the reduction of detonation under heavy loads of torque. It also cools the intake manifold and internal top end parts allowing the engine design to have higher compression ratios or use intake manifold pressure by way of a turbo charger or mechanical supercharger.
These same systems are of course used on large trucks and tractors and other devices burning much higher Btu producing diesel fuel, however they suffer from a weight handicap being forced to run large cumbersome inner coolers and giant radiators and the like. Not for high speed racing, however they do work on the giant Tractor Pull Machines you may of watched on TV or seen at the State Fairs.
There is always a trade off with most anything mechanical. What is gained on one side is lost in a percentage of that gain on the other.
Yeah, I think that nat. gas would be the best way to go- why not a nat. gas hy-bird car and push to have gas stations sell nat. gas, (plus you can fill up at home to if you have nat. gas in your house). I agree it's very stupid to use a food source as a fuel for motor vehicles. Corn/corn products are used in just about everything we eat. To use something we eat as a fuel source is very bad. I can't believe they are pushing to use more corn products as fuel.[xx(]
I always proposed the use of Nuclear power to run Trains, Trucks and Heavy Equipment. But because of the introduction of Radiation in the form of a weapon, seems we mere humans will continue to burn our food source to move matter around on friction wheels and through water.
I still wish we knew the real method used to move the giant stones of the Pyramids?
I meant to wait until after dark to buy gas,
really.
Too many consecutive Ozone Alert days (and my crummy memory) put me in a position where I had to gas up today while it's still daylight (a sin, I know).
...but on my way home tonight I see the QT raised the price a dime within the past few hours.
Ohmygawd, there's a remnant of a hurricane heading our way.
Might affect production from somewhere where we dont get our gas from.
quote:
Originally posted by inteller
those of us filling up for $1 a gal with natural gas are laughing right now.
this is all the more reason why refineries should be nationalized until there are enough to have a true market economy.
You dont get out of town much do you....