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Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: cannon_fodder on July 09, 2007, 02:08:17 pm The "New" 7 wonders of the ancient world have been announced:
http://www.new7wonders.com/index.php?id=633 Of course, since this was a 'global election' the results are a bit strange. Mexico, Italy, Brazil, Jordan, India, and China all had government sponsored vote drives (Mexico even had voting instructions on Coke cans!) so the results are subject to criticism. In any event, a find list of attractions to be sure. What I was wondering, is what are the 7 Wonders of the Tulsa area? When someone from out of town comes to Tulsa, what should they see or do? For that matter - what are the 7 wonders of Oklahoma? Or the country, world? Let me know what list you are compiling, but I figured this is great discussion material! Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: cannon_fodder on July 09, 2007, 02:17:13 pm 7 Wonders of Tulsa:
(in no particular order) 1) Oklahoma Aquarium (or Zoo, depends on the weather) 2) Philbrook (including gardens) 3) Gilcrease (including grounds) 4) Oktoberfest (maybe not a structure, but it counts in my book!) 5) The Tulsa Skyline (usually strategically happened upon on the way to somewhere - River's Edge) 6) Rosebud Nature Preserve 7) The Center of the Universe (coupled with a show at the PAC, some art or music in the Brady, and/or some beers in the Blue Dome) Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: Conan71 on July 09, 2007, 02:28:29 pm The 8th wonder is how did Kid Rock ever get a record contract?
Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: sgrizzle on July 09, 2007, 02:43:58 pm I would take oktoberfest off. The rain a few years back killed it. I would put the fair or Mayfest in it's place. Both have many more people.
Second thoght, the IPE building. Largest clearspan building on the planet. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: NellieBly on July 09, 2007, 03:00:36 pm The hands. We have to include the praying hands at ORU -- a wondrous thing indeed!
Other nominees -- Coney Island-ers Expo IPE building The Broken Arrow, Keystone Expressway interchange on the IDL -- It's wonderful to make it alive through there. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: grahambino on July 09, 2007, 03:02:32 pm here's my list in no particular order.
1. cain's ballroom 2. boston ave. methodist 3. downtown skyline 4. philbrook 5. gilcrease 6. center of the universe (coupled with 1 & 7) 7. brady theatre Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: Breadburner on July 09, 2007, 03:02:54 pm Sorry...... Chilli Bowl cannot be left out.....
Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: restored2x on July 09, 2007, 03:06:52 pm Yes - the hands. And the entire ORU complex. (Didn't ORU used to be the largest tourist attraction in OK? - just a few years back?)
Whatever your opinion of the theology of Oral Roberts or ORU - the place is pretty incredible. Also what about the "Jetson's Building" - that apartment/condo round thing down by the river? Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: cannon_fodder on July 09, 2007, 03:10:22 pm Rain killed it, are you kidding? 200,000+ people showed up last year and a record amount of beer consumed. Seems to be rolling strong. I may have 4 or 5 people in town just for Oktoberfest this year from Des Moines and Minneapolis.
Damn I feel like chicken dancing. - - - - The Boston Ave. church is usually on my skyline tower of downtown. The IPE building along with the Golden Driller is unavoidable where I live (What happened to the lights on the building? I miss the neon!) and I often drive by the hands on my way out to a friends house (drive down riverside). All good additions. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: Conan71 on July 09, 2007, 03:22:46 pm Well if we are including Oklahoma in the survey, the Pensacola Dam is the world's longest multiple arch dam.
Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: tulsa1603 on July 09, 2007, 03:33:21 pm 1) Downtown skyline - few cities our size have anything nearly as nice as ours.
2) Philbrook 3) Blair Mansion (house on Riverside with the HUGE front yard). 4) Boston Ave. methodist church 5) BOK Tower (ok, it goes in #1, but it's practically a 1/4 scale replica of the World Trade Center, designed by the same architect) 6) The Tulsa State Fair - een though I never go - i'm not into crowds of spandex clad masses munching on turkey legs... 7) Reservoir Hill - views and houses most people would never know existed simply because it's "north" of the comfort zone. I've had many out of town guests comment on how gorgeous our neighborhods are. I think this is something a lot of us take for granted. We're lucky Tulsa was such a booming place in the 1920's and 30's. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: cannon_fodder on July 09, 2007, 03:46:44 pm Good call Tulsa1603... I often drive from my house at 28th and Harvard to the river through those 1920's mansions with visitors. They are not as big or glamorous as some, but certainly the style points take them over the top. And without a doubt they take the cake from the McMansions of most of middle America.
Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: mr.jaynes on July 09, 2007, 05:27:04 pm quote: quote: quote: What, no mention of the Golden Driller? Why, when I lived in the Tulsa area, I'd regularly genuflect before that most sacred of all Tulsa edifices! quote: Ah yes, Babylon on the Arkansas! Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: TheArtist on July 09, 2007, 05:41:01 pm 1. Boston Avenue Church
2. Villa Philbrook 3. Gilcrease In that order Other contenders to fill out the list, in no particular order. Philtower, 1st Methodist, ORU campus, Cains Ballroom, BOK tower, Golden Driller BTW events like Octoberfest and the Fair shouldn't really qualify IMHO.[8D] Perhaps a different list. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: Wrinkle on July 09, 2007, 07:11:27 pm The Walter B. Hall Resource Recovery Center
(monument to the biggest boondoggle ever committed by a local government) Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: sgrizzle on July 09, 2007, 08:00:25 pm quote: Yeah, but ever since the "rain out" year, oktoberfest has charged admission and attendance is still lower than mayfest and the fair. And yeah, Chili Bowl is a major national event too. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: TulsaEx on July 09, 2007, 08:13:27 pm There are many good suggestions on here. You also might want to consider Southern Hills Country Club, Tulsa Ballet and Westhope
Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: TulsaEx on July 09, 2007, 08:56:29 pm Some more suggestions for the Tulsa region:
The Mid-Continent Tower, Philtower, Mohawk Park, Port of Catoosa/McKlellan-Kerr Navigation System, the Blue Whale, Admiral Twin and soon to be BOK Center, Centennial Gardens, River Parks, The American Statewide: The Price Tower, Marland Mansion, Myriad Gardens, The Capitol Dome, Gallager-Iba Arena, Gaylord Family Stadium, Grand/Tenkiller/Skiatook/Eufaula/Broken Bow/Texoma lakes, Woolaroc Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: Double A on July 09, 2007, 09:22:10 pm Do potholes qualify? There are some here in Tulsa that really make me wonder where the hell our tax dollars are being spent.
Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: JamesDVD on July 09, 2007, 09:45:27 pm no mention of the praying hands? this is the bible belt after all!
Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: Johnboy976 on July 09, 2007, 11:01:43 pm Did anyone ever think, as a kid (if you're young enough) that the Prayer Tower on the ORU campus was ready to take off at some point?
Btw, the Tulsa Driller cannot be left out of this list. Sure, it's an eyesore, but its memorable. You know, like one of those horrible memories that is etched into your brain for all your life. Or that red-headed step-child of yours that you wish you could leave in a swamp somewhere in Louisiana (not encouraging child abandonment in any form, so you know). Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: mr.jaynes on July 10, 2007, 12:33:56 am quote: I wouldn't call it an eyesore and it is memorable, but I can think of better things to be haunted by in terms of monuments. Like that statue in midtown Sand Springs of some rich dude who supposedly built that town. It's a much more poignant and heartfelt tribute than the Driller seemed to be for me. As for ORU, the comment comparing it to Babylon was, as I recall, infamously coined by Tulsa Reverend John Wolfe of All Souls Unitarian Church-and it did seem fitting at the time. Then again, if their system of architecture has been retained, it may still evoke that asessment from me too. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: cannon_fodder on July 10, 2007, 07:33:57 am Hey, the Driller makes my tour... but its in my neighborhood. Not exactly a destination I guess.
I even have a picture of the Golden Driller on my wall, really really I do. It has an American Airlines plain flying over it. Part of a photo installation of Tulsa I did, I'll find the photos and post them sometime. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: waterboy on July 10, 2007, 07:42:30 am 1. I wonder why we never reach consensus in Tulsa.
2. I wonder why people think taxes are high in Oklahoma. 3. I wonder when the river will be developed. 4. I wonder when the capitol will realize its in their best interest to share the states wealth with us. 5. I wonder why my dog is afraid of squeaky shoes. 6. I wonder who wrote the book of love. 7. I wonder when it will stop raining every other day. Bonus Wonder: I wonder how long we'll tolerate such wide disparities of income before we realize thats why we have no consensus. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: restored2x on July 10, 2007, 07:54:33 am quote: " 1. I wonder why we never reach consensus in Tulsa. 2. I wonder why people think taxes are high in Oklahoma. 3. I wonder when the river will be developed. 4. I wonder when the capitol will realize its in their best interest to share the states wealth with us. 5. I wonder why my dog is afraid of squeaky shoes. 6. I wonder who wrote the book of love. 7. I wonder when it will stop raining every other day. Bonus Wonder: I wonder how long we'll tolerate such wide disparities of income before we realize thats why we have no consensus." Been in Tulsa for about 13 years - my biggest wonder has been - I wonder why people are so critical of the whole Oral Roberts/ORU thing. He/it has brought many visitors, new residents, jobs, and even international attention to Tulsa, (although not always in a positive light.) The international and national perception of ORU is mostly positive - the local perception - not so much. Why? I wonder. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: cannon_fodder on July 10, 2007, 08:13:35 am Restored -
I would have to disagree that the overall perception of Oral Roberts, the man, is a positive one. Outside of the Baptist South such evangelists who need a few million to build a gift shop or "god will call them home" are mocked, lamented, and greatly frowned upon. I'd venture to say that the the Northern Midwest (KC, St. Louis, Iowa, Illinois, etc.) and CERTAINLY the Northeast and Left coast have a negative opinion of Oral. People in the bible belt often forget that most of the nation is not religious (27% attend weekly services) - and of the minority that are religious most are not Baptist (16 branches of Baptist, ~25 million people. 1 Catholic Church ~ 62 Mil.). http://www.thearda.com/mapsReports/reports/US_2000.asp (really interesting web page) Rates of all evangelical adherence by state (per 1,000): 1 Arkansas 431.48 2 Oklahoma 414.91 3 Alabama 405.87 4 Mississippi 397.28 5 Tennessee 369.55 6 Kentucky 336.75 7 South Carolina 294 8 Georgia 277.76 9 North Carolina 255.78 10 Missouri 247.46 11 Texas 243.77 12 Louisiana 215.34 13 Virginia 171.09 A huge drop off from there. (sorry, I love statistics, maps, and so on. Found this website and its damn neat) http://www.thearda.com/mapsReports/maps/map.asp?variable=9&state=101&variable2= My point is, the hard line fundamentalist message is not popular with all but a small minority. That happen to be concentrated in this area. Most people hear someone say "I need money or god will..." and just shake their heads. That said, it seems to be he has done a lot of good for Tulsa. I do not agree with his views on most things, but he has brought a quality educational institution to Tulsa. Built a top rate arena (and gift shop) as well as an interesting campus. I disagree with his ideas, but it seems his actions have been positive for the community. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: Conan71 on July 10, 2007, 08:18:31 am quote: Socialism sucks. Marx is dead. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: cannon_fodder on July 10, 2007, 08:35:29 am Now, now. It worked well for North Korea, the USSR, Poland, the Ukraine, Cuba, Vietnam, the Balkan states and Kazakhstan. That's how they got to be the powerful and prosperous states they are today. I, for one, whole heartedly trust my government to make informed and wise decisions. The more they are in charge of, the better things will be!
I digress, back to the wonders! Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: NellieBly on July 10, 2007, 09:17:15 am The Dam on Lake Buchanan in Texas also claims to be the world's longest multiple arch dam. At two miles long, I think they got Pensacola Dam beat.
Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: sauerkraut on July 10, 2007, 09:47:37 am Here's a few of the things I like about Tulsa, I guess ya can call 'em "wonders" ....The RiverSide jogging trail, and the BOK Tower,and Whataburger Joints[:)]
Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: Double A on July 10, 2007, 11:07:26 am quote:1. Because Tulsans are sick of having the taxpayer funded flights of fancy(Great plains, One Tech, V2025, the Channels, River Development, etc.) by the elites in this town shoved down our throats while the basic services and infrastructure in Tulsa crumbles, especially in struggling areas of the city that have been subjected to institutionalized neglect. The reason Tulsans don't trust our local government is they consistently fail to earn it and deliver the progress as promised. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: RecycleMichael on July 10, 2007, 11:59:37 am quote: If I am in favor of river development or voted for Vision 2025 I am an elitist? I think you have too much class envy. Why do you hate people who have made money and feel you should call them elitists? When you talk about the Mayor, you mention that she has a big house...how is that relevant to a conversation about moving city hall? Why do you feel that Tulsans don't trust our government? I disagree. I trust the Mayor, the City Council and others to do a good job. If the majority of citizens didn't trust them, we wouldn't have voted yes on things like the third penny extensions and Vision 2025. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: sgrizzle on July 10, 2007, 12:30:17 pm quote: I wouldn't say we're tired. The "Tulsa Project" lost numerous times, the Channels was a bust, and the library bond issue as well. However we still voted for 3rd penny, 4 to fix and v2025. I'm a big fan of pay-per-use so let's bring back the gas tax for infrastructure and make all highways toll roads. While we're at it, changed riverside to a parkway instead of a highway and use some of the gas tax to subsidize public transportation (since driving a car will take too long or cost too much now) Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: mr.jaynes on July 10, 2007, 01:01:21 pm quote: Oh, I don't know about that. I remember how SNL did a spoof on the whole Oral Roberts thing, and it was pretty devastating; let's see, I think it was the late Phil Hartman as Oral and in the role of the Almighty, none other than guest host Charlton Heston. So if SNL can take a dim view of it, howe about the rest of the country? Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: restored2x on July 10, 2007, 01:22:41 pm quote: SNL is a comedy show - a parody. That does not express the views of the nation. The skit may be funny - but it's a comedy skit - supposed to be funny. Like you, I have lived in many states and overseas - the perception where I have been has not been as negative as here locally - I wonder why? Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: Conan71 on July 10, 2007, 01:27:20 pm quote: Funniest preacher spoof on SNL was a repentant Jimmy Swaggart played by Phil Hartman being admonished by Dana Carvey's "Church Lady". "And 'Little Jimmy' was out of his pulpit...isn't that SPECIAL!" Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: Conan71 on July 10, 2007, 01:28:16 pm quote: Ooops forgot about those bastions of economic success. My bad. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: mr.jaynes on July 10, 2007, 01:29:12 pm quote: And he was even able to convey that the illustrious Reverend Swaggart wasn't so much sorry about what he did, but probably more sorry that he got caught. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: restored2x on July 10, 2007, 01:30:28 pm Funny - "Wonders" is turning into politics and religion -
...makes me wonder... Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: mr.jaynes on July 10, 2007, 01:39:58 pm quote: Oh, I don't know. We talk alot of politics here, so religion seems to be an interesting point of divergence. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: restored2x on July 10, 2007, 01:48:25 pm quote: I'm really enjoying this forum. Some interesting people on here. The "back and forth" is cool. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: cannon_fodder on July 10, 2007, 02:19:07 pm Well, I started this thread trying to get actual wonders of Oklahoma or whatever... it just went downhill fast. Bah!
Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: mr.jaynes on July 10, 2007, 03:18:32 pm quote: Well, sure it's supposed to be funny. But hey, I still remmeber the stars of TV Evangelism, the scandals, the power, the politics, the money, the whole nine, and perhaps we needed to parody the whole genre, because it was a big topic of concern back in the day. To respond to your post, I was still in High School in Tulsa when the esteemed Reverend Roberts holed himself up in that prayer tower as he was trying to raise that $7 million by March 31 or God was gonna call him home; I trust everyone knows what the day after March 31 is? I understand KMRG's John Erling had a field day on his show ragging on him-I know I did! And if locally, people can see how outrageous this particular fundraising stunt really was, what does the rest of the country think about it? I mean, SNL notwithstanding, Johnny Carson tore into it, and if Letterman avoided the subject I'd be surprised. As for the perception being mostly positive, let's take TV evangelists as a whole and see where people stand. You had one guy who just sat there, smoking a cigar and muttering about this and that, while on the other extreme, you got another guy claiming that God wanted him to run for President. Over here, you have a fire-and-brimstone singing evangelist who regularly cruises down to the New Orleans area to get his particular kicks, and on the other hand, some evangelists with a theme park and resort. Over there, you got a guy who fakes miracles with a transmitter in his ear, and over there, a guy whose infomercial-resembling program promises huge returns on your seed faith donation (and I'm not referring to Oral here!). Let us prey. So when you see Roberts making a fool of himself on TV like that, it doesn't do much to help the image of not only him, but evangelists in general. Sure, those devoted masses might find a way to rationalize that kind of buffoonery, but hey, some of us know better. As for his college, let's face it, it looked kinda chintzy; it wasn't exactly Tulane or Loyola (or even my alma mater, University of New Orleans). And if the look they were going for was something out of an old 1930s Sci-Fi film, they failed miserably. Sure, it provides jobs, attracts conferences, what have you, but hey, so does Vegas. Me, I'm born in New Orleans, spent my childhood and teens in the Tulsa area, went home to New Orleans and moved from there to Biloxi a few years later; I guess a case could be made for classifying me as a former Okie, but hey, whichever. I've traveled in the US, yes, plan to do more (pondering a trip to the Baltics, in fact, my first international voyage!). Some people either have no opinion when you tell them you're from Oklahoma or even lived there, or they snicker and giggle. But hey, I cope. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: deinstein on July 10, 2007, 03:47:17 pm quote: Ignorance is bliss. Just ask Scandinavia... Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: mr.jaynes on July 10, 2007, 07:59:28 pm quote: I don't truck with socialism, but whatever meets their needs and wants, I suppose. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: waterboy on July 10, 2007, 08:07:10 pm quote: You made quite a stretch guys to take my remark to be socialist. But then thats what you do. Everything is politics, even when its just economics. So countries whose top execs don't rake in 300 times what their average employee makes, those are all socialists too? Japan, England, France, etc.? And of course those damn healthy, happy, non-aligned Scandinavian countries. Sticks and stones... Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: mr.jaynes on July 10, 2007, 09:25:08 pm quote: No Waterboy, I'm not misconstruing what you said as Socialist. I am acknowledging that these European nations have adopted a model of socialized/mixed economy economics that seems to work better than what the Marxist Leninist schools of thought put in practice. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: Phireman on July 10, 2007, 09:28:25 pm quote: It should be renamed "Drunkfest". Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: Double A on July 10, 2007, 09:51:12 pm I think our flood control system should top that list.
Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: shadows on July 10, 2007, 10:03:36 pm quote: You are forgetting China who’s industrial ability has made them a super power to reckon with. In the world bank we are indebt to them for over three trillion dollars and increasing. Next we will have them make us a printing press so we can increase our circulation of the devalued dollar that by threats we are forcing upon the world. Roberts, when he was establishing the “City of Faith” which included ORU was an outsider to the elite in control of Tulsa. The day the foundations for the hospital were dug Rome was telling him that he would not be given a building permit because we had more hospital rooms that we would need. The day it was opened it had the most up-to-date equipment available. He even established a school to train doctors. Also a law school. All had been paid for. I even helped. The campaign started to discredit the schools as TU, a private owned college, considered the schools a threat to them although he gave his law library to them when it was closed. Tulsa’s silent government pointed their thumbs down. Next the hospital was under fire. Doctors would not send people there. The silent government in Tulsa stopped even the welfare patients from being sent there. World wide the ORU graduates are highly credited. In the post card racks in the airports are pictures of the campus. Doctors hospital; same fate, wrong people. How many new rooms and hospitals have we built since? How do you classify “Wonder of Tulsa”? Is it qualified on approval of the “Insiders”? Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: waterboy on July 11, 2007, 06:37:25 am I'm not a socialist. I'm a guy who tried to inject some satirical humor into a pointless list of pseudo-wonders. I tried to edit the post twice to say that but it never took. Jaynes it was just coincidence that your post preceded mine.
My only point was that when a community has such a wide spread between the ruling class and the working class, as in Tulsa, there is not likely to be any consensus on public projects. As a nation we have a similar problem with execs making hundreds of times what the average worker makes even though our execs are no more effective than other countries where the spread is much smaller. If telling the truth makes me socialist then so be it. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: Conan71 on July 11, 2007, 06:49:16 am Talk about massive thread drift...
Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: restored2x on July 11, 2007, 07:51:32 am quote: Thank you. It is amazing that people OUTSIDE of Tulsa know these things - yet people on the inside, instead of championing what we have and looking at the positive, seem to be puppets of the mass media, and jump on the "all evangelists are evil - let's bash Oral, ORU OREA, and the Towers, so we can fit in and not look hickish" bandwagon. As for the architecture - I think it is really cool. Most visitors I have had really want to see the campus and also think it's cool. It ain't no Tulane, Loyola or Harvard - but it ain't supposed to be - on purpose. Oral Roberts is quite a character. What he has done is quite incredible. Strip away theological bias, and what you have here is an amazing story of an Okie rising from poverty to influence the entire world. Hollywood is gonna love this story. Wherever you go in the world - people know his name and what he has accomplished. New Yorkers hate Trump - Okies seem to disparage Oral. Shame. He is an old man - and when he passes - I truly hope Tulsa will celebrate the Cherokee who bought a pig farm and transformed it into an influential university. Maybe it will be a day we can set aside our personal religious prejudices and show pride in one of the last Okie pioneers. /stepping down from soapbox Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: TURobY on July 11, 2007, 08:00:58 am HA! I take it that you've never attended ORU. Otherwise, you would know that even the students there share a disdain for Oral. [;)]
Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: restored2x on July 11, 2007, 08:17:21 am quote: I guess they should have chosen another school to go to. I have no respect for someone who would choose to go to that school, pay good money to get the education afforded them, and then be disloyal to what will be their alma mater. If true, your comment speaks more of the character of those specific students, and not Oral or the University. If they are trying to separate the education from the founder - that will be hard to do - considering the fact that their diploma will say ORAL ROBERTS UNIVERSITY right across the top. They need to stop trying to apologize for being in a school founded by an evangelist. Go the **** elsewhere for your education if you can't be proud of your school and its heritage! I am ashamed of those people. What is your attitude about TU students who constantly complain about TU? THAT would never happen! BTW - this series of posts are not drifting - we are debating whether or not ORU should be considered one of Tulsa's wonders. [;)] No - I didn't go there - but would have if afforded the opportunity years ago. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: cannon_fodder on July 11, 2007, 08:35:59 am quote: I love these little economic chats with you. China only became a economic force when it adopted MARKET REFORMS. Its communist school of economics dragged the country into grinding poverty and starved hundreds of millions of people (the great leap backwards). GO COMMUNISM! YAY! Now with market reforms they have clawed their way up the ladder and have a BOOMING economy that is nearly 1/6th the size of the United States. China's average income is $7,700... good enough for 84th highest paid nation on the planet (just ahead of Gabon). Not exactly a world super power. 2/3 of China operated as serf farmers living off of what the government allows to keep of their crops. When they arent executed dissidents, squelching religion, or shutting down the press/internet/free thought. Indeed, a great example of what communism gets you. Even with the recent market reforms they are still 30 years behind. A little more CAPITALISM and they'll be a real power. China Holds $412 BILLION in US Debt, NOT 3 Trillion. Where do you get your facts? All in, foreign countries hold a total of 2.2 Trillion of US Treasury Notes. Japan is the largest holder with 619 B. Don't you hate it when facts get in the way of a good rant? http://www.ustreas.gov/tic/mfh.txt Money Printing And finally, on the economics front, printing of money is no longer the major contributor to the devaluation of currency. At any given time there is something like 22 Billion in US Dollars in circulation. That amount is NOTHING. If it were doubled it would have no effect on the valuation of the currency as there is TRILLIONS and TRILLIONS in wealth in USD. Not to mention, one can accurately track the amount of currency in circulation and that amount is fairly stable. Thus, it could not be the reason for a devaluation. In fact, when a currency is more popular, more of that currency has to be minted. Currently they must mint MORE Euros because of its increase popularity. It will not devalue the money on any floating currency unless assigning amounts of cash are printed (see, ie. the Sudan). quote: Not exactly true. To be sure, the Towers were never paid for. Nor was most of the medical equipment. It was all floated on long term notes. Which he nearly defaulted on and seriously considered filing for bankruptcy. They cost $150,000,000.00 to built and led to $25,000,000 in over due debt. It was all very public, as Oral got involved in several law suits over the multiple millions he owed. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4182/is_19960822/ai_n10095247 quote: Also not true. Oral Roberts donate its small law library to Pat Robertson's college: http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/04/08/scandal_puts_spotlight_on_christian_law_school/?page=full Do you EVER research facts? quote: Nothing more than tinfoil hat talk. All evidence suggests he over leveraged himself. Either that, or the will of your conspirators were able to defeat the will of Oral's god. Just doesnt make sense. quote: It is a fine school by all accounts and certainly has a beautiful campus. I do not believe anyone has contradicted this. I do not mind giving accolades to people I do not agree with, and certainly Oral Roberts has a list of accomplishments that can be touted. But why do you feel the need to make things up to support him? ps. Can we PLEASE digress back to nice lists of pretty thing sin Tulsa? Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: TURobY on July 11, 2007, 09:31:10 am quote: Nearly 75% of the people I've met who've gone to ORU (or 13 out of 17) went there only because their parents sent them there. They didn't have another personal, economically feasible alternative at the time. And from 95% of those people (or 16 out of 17), there was recognition that the student body, as a collective whole, rolled their eyes at Oral's rhetoric. Additonally, I've heard several complaints from current and previous students on the mandatory chapel services, curfew, and so forth. When I was an undergrad at TU, we would have ORU students trying to hit up the fraternity houses to party all the time. Face it, these kids aren't there for their personal beliefs, they are there because that's where mom and dad sent them. I'm not saying that the education is bad, and I'm not trying to bring down your view of the school. In fact, I love to walk around and look at the architecture when I'm in the area. I'm just stating that now-a-days, very few kids who attend ORU respect Oral or his mission. They are just trying to get a piece of paper and have an enjoyable time. I would agree that the architecture of ORU is interesting (though maybe cheaply built, seeing as the dorms are falling apart). A "wonder" though... probably not. I would be willing to give the prayer tower (on its own) consideration, though. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: sauerkraut on July 11, 2007, 09:52:31 am I was unable to think of any more than 3 wonders in Tulsa. I tryed, but failed. The 3 wonders I can think of is the RiverSide jogging trail, BOK Tower, and Whataburger joints. beyond that I'm at a loss.[xx(]
Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: restored2x on July 11, 2007, 09:55:41 am quote: OK - I guess I understand where you're coming from. Many religious schools suffer the same malady - parents send their kids to the school to "fix" them, or hope the school will somehow "convert" them. You can take the kid out of the party, but you can't take the party out of the kid. Then again, to complain about the rules is a little stupid. After all - they know they are going to a certain kind of school - the rules are there up-front. Curfews and mandatory chapel services ain't gonna change anytime soon there. I had an opportunity to write for OREA a few years back (wonderful job) - but turned it down because I couldn't sign the agreement about smoking and drinking. I could've signed the papers, taken the job and complained about the rules - but I don't roll like that. Maybe an 18-year-old who depends on their parents for tuition has no other choice... except maybe to grow up and pay their own way through the college of their choice. Many of our nation's most liberal universities were started by evangelists and theologians. Over time, the schools have changed. Perhaps ORU is beginning to change. We (and you) are witnessing this change first-hand. I'll not say whether this is good or bad; It is the nature of the beast. Maybe in ten years time, we'll see students protesting the praying hands and the ACLU will take ORU to court to rename the Prayer Tower the "Diversity Peak" or something. My vote still stands - ORU as one of the Wonders of Tulsa. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: Conan71 on July 11, 2007, 10:08:20 am Well, let's just say back in the day wisdom was to date ORU girls as they were a much more fun date. [;)]
Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: restored2x on July 11, 2007, 10:10:48 am quote: As Gomer Pyle would say: "Shame, shame, shame! Shame on you, Sgt. Carter!" East coast has catholic girls - Tulsa has ORU girls. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: shadows on July 11, 2007, 12:53:01 pm CF answered:
The facts on China go back to 5,000 years before Christ. Their history is available in short form in any Almanac. Their investment in US securities does not reflect the balance of payments which is measured in the trillion of dollars on deposit in the world bank. Lets consider apples to apples when they are used as a barter of exchange. There is an article in the archives of the Tulsa World about the exchange and how it could effect our economy if they ask for it. Seem your dream is taking a wheelbarrow of hundred dollar bills to the store to buy a weeks supply of food is the perfect economy. I am from an economy where I worked as a welder for Flint for the yearly salary of $884 fabricating the bomber plant. China average salary is $7,700 which is a poor income in our deflated dollars? The dream of building of the City of Faith, where the strawberry patch once stood, was completed by the outsider, who says he had a vision and a demand to do so. The knowledge of the struggle to fulfill it happened long before you were ready for dippers. Roberts, was from a simple family and the acquisition of the information was obtained over years printed in the news papers of the buildings. We have done contract work for his brother and sister also. There was rumors that TU was to get his library and I did notice that at one time there seem to be an increase in the Reporters added. I love the discussions with new economist who know only of the golden age of this country. The world is struggling to move in on us to take advantage of the float of the dollar by threat. Watch out for sharp points as they are very dangerous around inflated economy balloons Your thread was to list the 7 wonders of Tulsa which I have answered too. Thus have I not cited one? Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: TURobY on July 11, 2007, 01:12:35 pm quote: If 900-foot-Jesus spoke to me, I would probably do crazy things too. [:P] Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: mr.jaynes on July 11, 2007, 01:20:42 pm quote: Ya never know. In 10 years or so, maybe ORU will be named one of the TOP TEN party schools in the nation! Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: restored2x on July 11, 2007, 01:40:51 pm quote: I guess that whole "tolerance" thing doesn't include people I differ with on matters of faith - especially if they are easy targets. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: cannon_fodder on July 11, 2007, 01:58:35 pm quote: True. quote: The United States does not issue debt through the world bank. We issue securities on our own accord. They are not affected by world bank deposits nor securities. All US debt is issued in US dollars at face value plus state interest - that's about as clear a debt load as one can have. I will need to see something pretty convincing to sway my opinion away from the US Treasury to your side of the argument. quote: US Securities are issued with a maturity date. China, nor anyone else, has the right to call the debt in. Just like your bank can not call in your mortgage. quote: Please go get some level of education in economics. Your father was from an economy where he worked for 17 cents a day. You're son earns $35,000 a year. The inflation rate in the US for the last 2 decades has averaged less than 3% - far lower than any other country and far better than any historic average. Managed inflation is not the enemy. Plus, no economy is safe from the forces of economics. The gold standard has been busted plenty of time throughout history buy inflationary forces (and worse - deflation. There not being enough gold to run the economy). Come up with a better idea and surely you will be as famous as Marx or Smith. Not to mention, a high inflation economy that is manged correctly will correct itself. The exports of such a country become relatively cheaper over seas as imports become more expensive. Thus, domestic producers benefit from the double whamy of higher demand at home and a greater export market. Economics 101 for the love of god. quote: China pegs their monetary unit to the US Dollar. So yes, $7,700 is a poor income. I even stated in WORLD terms for you. China is 84th in the world for average income. EIGHTY FOURTH. Someday, perhaps when we go back to the gold standard, we can drop 80 places and compete with China on income levels. If you indeed worked at a bomber plant during WWII as you insinuated, then it is you who lived through the golden age. The greatest period of economic growth in the history of the world was the United States from 1949 - 1958. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: mr.jaynes on July 11, 2007, 02:03:03 pm quote: Why 900? I thought the big number for Oral was 7 or 77 or 777 or 7777 or whatever. If he'd said a 777ft Jesus, that would be more consistent. And the notion of Jesus being as tall as Godzilla or King Kong is preposterous anyway. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: RecycleMichael on July 11, 2007, 02:15:29 pm Here are my seven wonders of Tulsa.
Quik-Trip...I shop there for all my Christmas gifts. Most of my friends like beer and I can get the kids candy and the wife lottery tickets. It is the finest store of its kind in the country The Golden Driller...I think we should these all over town. A baseball player over by the Drillers, A cowboy next to OSU-Tulsa, A CSI detective staring through a magnifying glass at the new glass city hall... The Center of the Universe... amazingly weird and funny. I have taken many a tourist friend there after some beers from a downtown drinking spot and they all giggle. Bill's Jumbo Burgers...the place seats six, yet serves up hundreds of hamburgers every day during lunch. The Big Red burger inspires song. Up with Trees...no group like it exists anywhere in the country. Volunteers who raise money just to make our freeways into treeways. They also teach young misdemeanants how to properly plant a tree. George Kaiser...probably the most conservative banker in the state jumps out and gives money to hire neighborhood inspectors and build new jogging paths. This town will now be more beautiful because of one man. Tulsa Now...this forum allows full discussion and disclosure like no media before it. Everything that matters and plenty that doesn't gets discussed here. We are a better community for it. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: Conan71 on July 11, 2007, 03:24:26 pm I can honestly say that I'd never heard of the "Center Of The Universe" in Tulsa until this thread.
http://www.roadsideamerica.com/map/ok.html Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: cannon_fodder on July 11, 2007, 03:37:07 pm Whoa! Serious Conan?
The center of the universe rules. You MUST go there. Well, it really isnt THAT cool. That's why it has to be coupled with something else. It would make a pretty poor destination unto itself because after about 5 minutes of "cool" that's about it. Still, way cool. And now we can add the Jazz Hall of Fame coupled with some drinks in Brady/Blue Dome AND the Center of the Universe. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: TURobY on July 11, 2007, 04:31:11 pm quote: I can tolerate many things, but hijacking religion for personal gain is something I just can't accept. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: TheArtist on July 11, 2007, 05:11:36 pm I remember reading a few months ago an article in the news that said either OU or OSU were teaming up to offer medical classes on the ORU campus. If a gay student wants to take one of these OU or OSU medical classes on the ORU campus will they be allowed to? Can those classes at ORU then continue to legally descriminate if part of the funding comes from OU or ORU?
Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: dsjeffries on July 11, 2007, 05:16:00 pm quote: Is Up With Trees really just a Tulsa thing?? I always thought it was national... I guess I just never noticed that other cities didn't have those signs. I like it! Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: deinstein on July 11, 2007, 05:34:42 pm I saw it in Sand Springs today.
So, no. Tulsa isn't the only one. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: TulsaEx on July 11, 2007, 06:23:21 pm I may be wrong, but I think the OU agreement was with TU, not ORU. ORU did sign an agreement to accept full/seamless transfers from TCC.
On another note, the Up With Trees program is outstanding and I have not seen another program of it's type outside the Tulsa area, but I have heard rumors of other cities copying it. Nevertheless, I am always amazed when I return to Tulsa how nice the trees look now that they are starting to mature. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: RecycleMichael on July 11, 2007, 10:23:23 pm quote: Sand Springs is in Tulsa County. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: cannon_fodder on July 12, 2007, 07:40:04 am It is a "Tulsa thing"
http://upwithtrees.org/ Go forth and volunteer. - - - The state can discriminate against homosexuals as it sees fit. They are not a protected class. So if ORU was getting state aid, no problem. Don't forget, the state passed an amendment in essence approving of discrimination against homosexuals and most Oklahoman's would probably agree with overt discrimination. - - - Went to the Center of the Universe last night. :) Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: restored2x on July 12, 2007, 08:31:04 am quote: That is a judgment call. You don't believe he saw a 900-foot Jesus, or that God spoke to him and told him he would die if he didn't finish the work he was born to do - so you make fun of him. Ridiculing someone because of their religious beliefs is intolerance at best, hate and bigotry at worst. I truly believe that the man (deluded or not is not for me to decide or judge) believed in what he was doing. I don't believe it was contrived, or that he was manipulating for personal gain. This may be a case of personal pentecostal theology gone awry - but that is my own opinion. I didn't give any money to any of the ORU projects, I am not a graduate. None of my family works there. I have no personal or emotional investment in Oral or the University. I just think that the man Oral Roberts and what he has done here in Tulsa is amazing. Whether he ripped people off is between him, the people he allegedly ripped off, and God. It is not for me to judge. Rejecting the "wonder" of ORU based on my own religious bigotry is like saying the Mormon Tabernacle sucks because I don't like Mormons or don't agree with their theology. The Tabernacle is still beautiful. The pyramids of Egypt were also built around crazy beliefs about God, the afterlife, etc. They were built by forced labor - slaves. Yet, they are still a marvel. ORU is a beautiful campus. It is an attraction for Tulsa. It has brought in millions of dollars (and a Walmart). The buildings are cool-looking and clean. Many people who call themselves Tulsans are here because of the University. Why disparage all that because we don't like the guy, or the guy's methods, or his theology? Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: Conan71 on July 12, 2007, 08:48:01 am quote: Yep, serious. I'm going down there after I go to Arnies the next time to have a few. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: dsjeffries on July 12, 2007, 10:41:25 am quote: Yes, huh: In the federal government the Civil Service Reform Act of 1978 (CSRA), as amended, prohibits federal employees who have authority to take, direct others to take, recommend or approve any personnel action from discriminating against applicants and employees on the bases of race, color, sex, religion, national origin, age, disability, marital status or political affiliation and from discriminating against an applicant or employee on the basis of conduct which does not adversely affect the performance of the applicant or employee. The Office of Personnel Management (OPM) has interpreted the prohibition of discrimination based on "conduct" to include discrimination based on sexual orientation. See Addressing Sexual Orientation Discrimination in Federal Civilian Employment at http://www.opm.gov/er/address2/guide01.htm (http://"http://www.opm.gov/er/address2/guide01.htm"). Executive Order 13152, also amending Executive Order 11478, was signed on May 2, 2000, to provide for a uniform policy for the federal government to prohibit discrimination based on an individual's status as a parent. Executive Order 11478 section 1 now reads: It is the policy of the government of the United States to provide equal opportunity in federal employment for all persons, to prohibit discrimination in employment because of race, color, religion, sex, national origin, handicap, age, sexual orientation or status as a parent, and to promote the full realization of equal employment opportunity through a continuing affirmative program in each executive department and agency. This policy of equal opportunity applies to and must be an integral part of every aspect of personnel policy and practice in the employment, development, advancement, and treatment of civilian employees of the federal government, to the extent permitted by law. I realize those are federal regulations, not state... but protected at some level, yes. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: Aa5drvr on July 13, 2007, 03:33:59 am ZINGO!
woops Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: cannon_fodder on July 13, 2007, 08:23:37 am Ouch AA. good one. I did very much enjoy seeing the old coaster there and hearing the whoops and hollers as I was at my buddies nearby. Still think that was a bad move.
Another example of the city acting without a complete plan. Step 1: tear down Zingo Step 2: ? Step 3: profit! Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: shadows on July 13, 2007, 12:13:06 pm The TV news program last night had an advisor clip telling those to travel Europe should convert the dollars to euros’ prior to going as the floating dollar is deprecating so rapid that by the time one visits there it may have less value.
For a simple man who had the faith in his creation, the complex at 81st and Lewis, regardless of his faith, should be entitled to a place among 7 wonders of Tulsa. Especially among those who mind cannot comprehend space without boundaries nor a universe with trillions of balls of matter formed in solar systems. Big bang where? Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: cannon_fodder on July 13, 2007, 12:34:30 pm quote: The Dollar is down 5% against the Euro so far this year. In the last month it is devalued 1%. Not exactly a cataclysmic drop. Presuming the average international traveler exchanges $2500 or so (plane tickets already purchased) they would have saved $25 having exchanged a month ago. They would have lost ~$20 of investment income having done so. So a net cost of $5. not a great gain considering they could have easily lost money on the venture. In any event, 5% in 6 months is significant... but not "so rapid." Not to mention, the EURO floats too. As does every other major currency in the world that is NOT PEGGED to the dollar (which makes them floating in reference to world currencies). You cannot hate floating currencies and then lament on how great the Euro is doing. quote: Are you attempted to start a debate in astrophysics? If so, I subscribe to the Stephen Hawking theory of an expanding/contracting universe as explained in "A Short History of Time," which is in conformity to the laws of thermodynamics in explaining the increasing and decreasing densities of matter. I would be happy to go over some of the finer points with you if you so choose. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: mr.jaynes on July 13, 2007, 04:02:44 pm quote: Well, now that you mention it, I don't personally care for the man nor his methods nor his interpretation of theology, and his taste in architecture does leave just as much to be deired. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: swake on July 14, 2007, 10:49:10 am quote: Again, that was NOT the city. That was Randi Miller and Co. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: Aa5drvr on July 14, 2007, 07:04:35 pm >>Again, that was NOT the city.
>>That was Randi Miller and Co. Thats like making a comparison between two types of rats. They are all still rodents. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: cannon_fodder on July 16, 2007, 08:14:23 am I'm willing to bet the city could have done SOMETHING if they had the inclination. It may not have been a deciding factor, but at least some pressure or a statement of support or something. Also, I understand that it was the counties right to do so...
Just saying I'm tired of seeing action without a plan. Step 1: Move City Hall Step 2: Find tenants, someone to use the old city hall building, hope our projections hold up and find a way to raise $70,000,000.00 Step 3; Profit! Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: swake on July 16, 2007, 08:35:25 am quote: What exactly could the city have done? Bells was not even IN the city of Tulsa. What exact influence do you think the city would have been able to exert on land outside the city limits and owned by the county? Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: cannon_fodder on July 16, 2007, 09:00:50 am At very least, they could have made a statement that Bell's was a historic landmark within the city of Tulsa and they regretted that the situation could not have been resolved. That would have been *something* that could have been done.
You would think the city is smart enough to realize that most people don't care WHO is doing it, but realize it is being done in Tulsa and will blame the city. I imagine they have some strings they can pull with the county. Again... I'm not saying giving Bells the boot was the wrong decision. I'm just saying doing so without a plan was stupid and thus far has resulted in an ugly mess, the loss of revenue, the loss of an attraction, and the county helping to pay for Robbie's breach of contract. Great plan. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: shadows on July 16, 2007, 01:38:19 pm CF quoted:
Are you attempted to start a debate in astrophysics? If so, I subscribe to the Stephen Hawking theory of an expanding/contracting universe as explained in "A Short History of Time," which is in conformity to the laws of thermodynamics in explaining the increasing and decreasing densities of matter. I would be happy to go over some of the finer points with you if you so choose. ------------------------------------------------------------- The writing of Stephen Hawking, based on the theories of Einstein, do not establish the parameters that are acceptable to the human brain in establishing the limits of space. Also the concept of the theory of the black hole would leave one to ponder on thinking that such black holes have defined retracting parameters. When accepting the black hold theory we have no choice than to believe that all events on earth are recorded in what we call light waves and are moving away into space at the unproven speed of light. If such be true then with the present technology, if we could exceed the speed of light, we could capture those events as we regress into the past. [Buck Rogers/Star Track] Also that if all matter is held together by a resident frequency which determines the strength against its invasion and determining the pull of gravity on the matter which we determine as weight, they can be countered by centrifugal forces. India‘s book of the dead, when Egypt was a colony of India, speaks of striking the great stones in building the pyramids and moving them the length of a bow shot. We are guest of the Tulsa Now Forms and the challenge to debate such issues that has been cited, would not fall within the guidelines they have established, as these are based on speculation that this race will become immortal with the aging factor becoming extinct. Other than that, we return to organic matter and debate that we are not products of evolution or intelligent design and escape the ire of the administrators of the form. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: cannon_fodder on July 16, 2007, 02:26:27 pm Well, I applaud your attempt Shadow! But I have to take issue with several points:
- Pretty much all theoretical physics is based on Einstein, so you cannot fault Hawking for following his theories. - Hawking's book goes to great lengths to attempt and explain his theories so that an "average learned man" can follow what he is talking about. I grant you it must be read with a careful eye and much repeating to grasp the concepts (more studying than reading!), but it is not beyond most people. - Black Holes are a little more than a theory. There is significant evidence that such things exist with gravitational forces great enough to greatly bend light as it passes near. - The speed of light is not theoretical, it is 299,792,458 metres per second (186,282.397 miles per second or 670,616,629.2 mph). This knowledge is what allows us to make laser measurements. - Physics suggests that nothing can go faster than the speed of light. As one approaches the speed of light the energy required to accelerate increases exponentially (E= MC^2). Thus, to accelerate mass past the speed of light would require infinite energy. Thermodynamics tells us that is not possible. - The light waves you refer to are not time itself. They would merely contain a record of things that have already happened. Thus, if one COULD travel faster than the speed of light (which one can not) you would be able to view past events but not interact with them. It would be the galactic equivalent of a movie. - I cited Hawking, you cited Buck Rogers. [;)] - quote: I'm afraid I do not understand what you are talking about here. My ignorance perhaps. As I understand it, Physics and Chemistry describe the connection of matter as minute electrical bonds though the difference between physics and quantum physics still seeks a unifying theory. If centrifugal forces could break this bomb, a stone swung on the end of a string could be a nuclear weapon. - quote: its a hit, there she goes... way off in left field. You just confused me with this one. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: RecycleMichael on July 16, 2007, 02:44:26 pm Gravity is not just a good idea, it's the law.
Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: waterboy on July 16, 2007, 07:56:00 pm Are you familiar with an astronomer by the name of Jacobs? Saw him on the RSC channel with his "street astronomy" bit where he sets up a telescope on the streets of a major city and invites people to see the moon and stars up close.
Anyway, he challenges Hawking and the big bang theory as he sees it changing physics to fit a model rather than vice versa as was done in the past. Made some really strong statements. Admittedly, though fascinated, I was left floundering in water over my head. His strongest remark was that the big bang relies on the universe being created from nothing. However, physics simply has no way of creating something from nothing. He also asserts that the universe is neither expanding or contracting, rather it is static. It appears as to be expanding/contracting because of our position within the universe. Like hearing the siren on an ambulance increase/decrease as it passes by you, yet the reality is that the siren never really changed pitch. Anyone know about this guy? Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: cannon_fodder on July 17, 2007, 08:15:37 am I'm afraid I do not know about him Waterboy. Keep in mind, this really is not my field. I have flirted with it out of curiosity, but really I had to try hard to truly understand one theory on the topic. So i am not in a position to intelligently dispute another expert theory.
That said... it is my understanding that the big band does not try to explain WHERE the matter for the universe comes from (it follows thermodynamics, which basically says there is a finite amount of energy. It can change forms (matter, light, sound, heat...) but you can not get more of it. Hawking basically explains the big band as all matter was in a single point infinitely small and infinitely dense (gravity is a snowballing effect, as more matter joins it gets stronger, denser, and has more gravity). Upon reaching this point of infinite density, it becomes unstable and explodes. The universe expands from this point in a circle. As it does so the gravity of the matter in all directions acts upon each other and slows the expansion. Until it stops, and begins retracting... until the matter becomes infinitely small and infinitely dense. There you have it. A 350 word assessment of thermodynamics and the big band theory. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: shadows on July 17, 2007, 03:08:42 pm quote: Yep! Gravity like city hall attracts and has a hold on even many of our species. Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: cannon_fodder on July 17, 2007, 03:13:02 pm For a brief instance I thought you said "many of our spices." At which point, in that fleeting instance, I wasn't sure if you were certifiably mad or if it was some brilliant Dune reference. Then I realized you said "species," and I remain confused.
Title: 7 Wonders of Tulsa Post by: shadows on July 17, 2007, 03:22:48 pm quote: Species: “Group having common appearance.” Just being kind. |