An Open Letter to our Elected Oklahoma State and Federal Legislators:
I'm writing to you about a matter of serious concern. Recently the President of the National Coalition of Latino Clergy and Christian Leaders, the Rev. Miguel Rivera, held a press conference in Tulsa, Oklahoma announcing plans to sue the State of Oklahoma, claiming he will use our state as an example to show our state cannot seek legal accountability from the illegal foreign nationals here.
What caught my eye, and I hope it does yours as well, is Rivera states he is currently serving on the President's Council for Immigration Reform. What is going on here?
You can read the rest of the letter:
http://ztruth.typepad.com/ztruth/
quote:
What is going on here?
//My%20guess%20is%20that%20they%20don't%20see%20the%20law%20the%20same%20way%20as%20we%20do%20and%20want%20to%20change%20it%20to%20suit%20their%20agenda.%20When%20your%20in%20mexico,%20U.S.%20laws%20don't%20apply.%20They%20apparently%20don't%20want%20them%20to%20apply%20here%20either.%20
It%20seems%20they%20want%20to%20intimidate%20people%20by%20calling%20them%20racists.%20So%20much%20so,%20that%20the%20term%20doesn't%20seem%20to%20have%20any%20real%20meaning%20anymore.%20I%20still%20don't%20understand%20how%20enforcing%20the%20law%20against%20all%20immigrants,%20not%20just%20mexicans,%20can%20be%20racist.[url]http://cbs2.com/local/local_story_231191810.html
From the story...
"We are sad, but at the same time we are angry," said Javier Rodriguez, a Chicago immigration activist who worked with her. "How dare they arrest this woman?"
How dare they?? They were just following the law. Is she somehow immune or above the law??
Oops. Thought this was a Pat Benatar thread. [:P]
Just foreign nut-jobs thinking they should have carte blanche to enter the country as they please, smuggle drugs, drop babies, you know, basic harmless stuff.
How is it racist?
If Tulsa decided to round up all Hispanics, check them for immigration papers, then let the legal citizens go, it would be racist because you infringed of the rights of US citizens by sequestering them based on race/ethnicity.
If Tulsa decided to simply check all Hispanics during traffic stops, for legal residency, that also is racist because you're enforcing laws based purely in race, and legislating racial profiling. Perhaps we should check all Black folk to see if they're runaway slaves.
This is why the Fed is the Fed, this is why it's the Feds job to secure the borders and control illegal immigration. It's not supposed to be up to some Klan-haven town in Mississippi, it's not supposed to be up to TPD.
What you've got right now is a classic screw em over, blame the other guy, and act like something else can be done. Right-wingers all riled up because the Right-wing dominated Fed won't shut the borders, then their right wing politicians turn their supporter's wrath on local and state gov'ts. Gov'ts that are not equipped to handle it, gov'ts that are not required to handle it, gov't that are in some cases legally restricted from handling it.
Most of this race-based crap you guys are applauding, is in the process of being overturned by the Federal Courts. You've been in the wrong jurisdiction the entire time, but you're too blinded by racism or party politics to recognize it.
There are very good reasons to close the borders. Instead of doing that, we've got politicians pandering to the lowest common denominator. We've got people who wont bother looking at the situation, because half the argument stinks of absolute racism. This discussion never had to go there.
quote:
Most of this race-based crap you guys are applauding, is in the process of being overturned by the Federal Courts.
What's "race based" vis-a-vis sealing the border? As far as your other assertions, I don't believe that anyone is asking to implement those other scenarios...looks like someone is being blinded by party politics for sure, but it isn't who you think it is.
quote:
This discussion never had to go there.
This is what happens when you ignore a problem until it's too large to ignore anymore. People are fed up, but I really don't know anyone asking to have happen what you're claiming is happening.
Calling people who genuinely have issues with our current immigration policy "racists" every chance you get is just as rediculous as saying that all mexicans should be looked upon as illegal until proven otherwise.
Those things are being asked throughout the country. Some hick suburb of Dallas requiring landlords to check their residents status. So now, all Hispanics are requires to go through that extra scrutiny. It's a racist law. Police forces throughout the country are under increased pressure to "do something" about immigration, legislation is popping up everywhere. It's never been their job, and in a few years as these race based laws keep being struck down, it will again, not be their job.
Sealing the border has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with knowing who is here, who is not here, and why they're here. That's a simple function that every central gov't can reasonably require. If you leave everything else out of it, you've got a case. Otherwise, you end up being one of the many folks supporting race-based laws.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
Calling people who genuinely have issues with our current immigration policy "racists" every chance you get is just as rediculous as saying that all mexicans should be looked upon as illegal until proven otherwise.
I don't care if you're a racist or not. If you're supporting race-based laws, you deserve the moniker. I understand people are fed up. I am too. But you guys had every chance available in a small window to completely freeze traffic on the border, and you failed.
And now we're left to this. And it's not going to change, it's not going to get fixed. And all these laws you support are going down one by one. You chose the wrong track.
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
Calling people who genuinely have issues with our current immigration policy "racists" every chance you get is just as rediculous as saying that all mexicans should be looked upon as illegal until proven otherwise.
I don't care if you're a racist or not. If you're supporting race-based laws, you deserve the moniker. I understand people are fed up. I am too. But you guys had every chance available in a small window to completely freeze traffic on the border, and you failed.
And now we're left to this. And it's not going to change, it's not going to get fixed. And all these laws you support are going down one by one. You chose the wrong track.
Who is "you guys"?
We wouldn't be at this point if every president since Carter, and every Senate and Congress since the 1970's hadn't have ignored this burgeoning problem as it grew.
quote:
Sealing the border has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with knowing who is here, who is not here, and why they're here. That's a simple function that every central gov't can reasonably require. If you leave everything else out of it, you've got a case. Otherwise, you end up being one of the many folks supporting race-based laws.
What's the diff? Checking documentation is nothing more than knowing who is here, why they are here, and sending undesireables back.
I favor "profiling". The illegals are taking away jobs form legal U.S citizens and lowering our wages and standard of living. We are all taxpayers and the illegals are costing every taxpayer money. We need to ship them back to their homeland. if frosts me when I see illegals flying the flag of their home country on their car or a window sticker of their homeland flag. If they like it there so much why do they come here? The foreigners need to fix up their own home nation and make it great not come here and take what another country has.
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
I don't care if you're a racist or not. If you're supporting race-based laws, you deserve the moniker. I understand people are fed up. I am too. But you guys had every chance available in a small window to completely freeze traffic on the border, and you failed.
Who says anyone here is supporting those types of laws? Am I to gather that you're in support of unfettered access through our borders then since your comments seem to say that since Congress failed to secure the border this time around, that somehow all bets are off now? I don't get this line of thinking.
quote:
And now we're left to this. And it's not going to change, it's not going to get fixed. And all these laws you support are going down one by one. You chose the wrong track.
Again, I don't remember advocating anything close to what you're talking about...It is easier to argue when you just make up positions that I've adopted regardless of whether they're true or not.
No. The right track would have been to jump on your damn congressperson within a year or two of 911, and demanded the borders be sealed based on security concerns.
Now it's too late, too much run of the mill racism in the argument. Little to no concern about security. You can support whatever you want now, the problem is not going to be fixed.
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
No. The right track would have been to jump on your damn congressperson within a year or two of 911, and demanded the borders be sealed based on security concerns.
Now it's too late, too much run of the mill racism in the argument. Little to no concern about security. You can support whatever you want now, the problem is not going to be fixed.
So let me get this straight...it WAS a valid concern before, and needed to be dealt with (I would ask if you asked for anything to be done about it yourself...). Check...
It's STILL a valid concern and only getting worse but since we didn't pass reform withing this narrow window, the problem has now somehow dissapeared?
You don't fail to enforce laws simply because some of those asking that the laws be enforced are on the opposite side of the asile from you. Either you believe it to be a valid problem to be dealt with or not, there is no other option.
Why is the only valid ground for closing the border security? Can we not close the border simply because we have immigration laws that need to be enforced?
Absolutely it's a valid concern. It's no less valid than the day after 911. If you know how gov't works, and you know how Americans work, you know that this issue is done.
You had a true opportunity to shut down the borders, it didn't happen. The security holes are still there, but as you folks say quite often "there haven't been any attacks since." You guys are acting like we're fine on security, and the only thing we have to worry about is an illegal Mexican getting a job or going on welfare.
As long as the discussion is there, instead of security, this issue is dead. If you get back to security, we might have another ballgame.
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
Absolutely it's a valid concern. It's no less valid than the day after 911. If you know how gov't works, and you know how Americans work, you know that this issue is done.
You had a true opportunity to shut down the borders, it didn't happen. The security holes are still there, but as you folks say quite often "there haven't been any attacks since." You guys are acting like we're fine on security, and the only thing we have to worry about is an illegal Mexican getting a job or going on welfare.
As long as the discussion is there, instead of security, this issue is dead. If you get back to security, we might have another ballgame.
Why must it be a discussion of security? If the borders were dealt with prior to 9/11 would it have been racist to do so? I fail to see why we can't close the borders simply because our immigration policies are being violated. Closing the border should have more to do with enforcing immigration laws than security, thought security is now a valid concern.
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
Why must it be a discussion of security? If the borders were dealt with prior to 9/11 would it have been racist to do so? I fail to see why we can't close the borders simply because our immigration policies are being violated. Closing the border should have more to do with enforcing immigration laws than security, thought security is now a valid concern.
Absolutely we can close the borders on immigration violations. Any central gov't has that right, to seal their own borders.
However, the Fed has never been terribly concerned with immigration. They pay a lot of lip-service to it on occasion, primarily as an election tool, but they don't care. And when people get riled up, and racists start to come out of the cracks, and ordinary people start supporting race-based laws, you've completely blown away your ability to have a majority.
What needs to happen, is that people need to recognize that we (as a country) absolutely DO have that right; the right to seal the borders and control the ports. People also need stay on target, and recognize that a lot of things are just plain detrimental to the cause.
First of all, I'm not really big on the "they took 'er jobs" bandwagon. Until the underlying problems of employers getting the workers they want and workers getting the jobs they want, I really can not blame employers nor workers for working/hiring illegal. The legal immigration process in this country sucks and the "border security" is as big of a joke as airport security (shoes off please).
However:
1) Its not race, its status.
I don't care if you're black, white, hispanic, arab, or martian - if you papers are not in order you are here illegal. You are an "illegal." That is who the laws target.
Just because most illegals happen to be hispanic does not mean it is a racist law. Most pedophiles are white, is it racist to forbid them to move near schools? Most mafia bosses are (were?) Italian, are racketeering laws racist?
2) Crack down for security = OK, crackdown to enforce laws = not.
That's an exercise in semantics. The exact same action under a different pretense has the same result. Both would be disruptive to the hispanics that are here trying to work (legally or otherwise in some instances). Why would it matter if the governor decreed these new laws were for Oklahoma's security?
- - - -
My views are well known on this issue. I do not blame the "illegals" at all for trying to work. I would be in favor of a near open border policy (if you have work lines up, come on it. But you are not eligible for government benni's until you are a perm resident or on citizen track). However, saying that its racist when the government takes new measures to enforce the existing laws is a bit of a stretch. Perhaps its a ill-advised attempt brought on by frustration, but how is it racist?
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
First of all, I'm not really big on the "they took 'er jobs" bandwagon.
Well, try stayin' off the "I must agree with iplaw to fault" bandwagon. I've already responded. [:P]
Part of the problem of these types of laws, they are designed to target Hispanics even if not stated. Also, local and state are in many cases out of jurisdiction when they pass these laws. It's the Feds job, pawning it off on states and local jurisdictions won't work. And, if you can ever find a way to make it work, you'll never find consistency. Every one of these ordinances and laws is in total, the sum of a failure.
IP and I have gotten into plenty of spats... I calls 'em as I sees 'em.
Anyway, I disagree that they target hispanics. That is the result, but I do not think it is the purpose.
Per jurisdiction, it is the exclusive domain of the federal government if they have occupied the field. I believe there is a strong argument to be made that they have NOT occupied the field in several specific areas. So long as the state and local laws fill the gaps, there is an argument in support. Without serious and in depth research of the state and federal laws, I cannot say for sure (even then, I couldn't say for sure. Complicating the problem, does a federal law occupy the field if it is not really enforced?).
and in a Union, consistency is not required. Don't have time to get into in depth, but laws can vary by state. parts of me wish they would more (damn you strong central government!).
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Anyway, I disagree that they target hispanics. That is the result, but I do not think it is the purpose.
It's always difficult to tell, might have been run of the mill Klan or mildly xenophobic suburbanites. They're all crazy, in their own way. But as you said, the result ends up targeting Hispanics. The effect is exactly the same as if they named Hispanics directly, as opposed to immigrants. In effect, it makes the law race-based, even if indirectly.
Of course, I don't believe in uncontrollable free trade. So I don't have a problem with completely sealing the borders. I do have a problem with passing laws that resemble the race-based laws struck down 40+ years ago.
quote:
If Tulsa decided to round up all Hispanics, check them for immigration papers, then let the legal citizens go, it would be racist because you infringed of the rights of US citizens by sequestering them based on race/ethnicity.
Fill me in here...once someone becomes legal, does that mean that no one is allowed to ask them about their status?
If I migrated, legally, to a country that had a problem with illegals from my country and they were working to solve the problem, I would expect to be asked about my status, multiple times even. Should I get angry that I was asked about my status, no. If I'm legal, I have nothing to worry about, under the law.
Are we supposed to tip-toe around the issue of enforcement and asking ones status because it might upset them? If so, we're in worse shape as a country than I thought.
I'm sorry, but I just don't see it as racist. Do we have a right to ask someone who can't speak english their legal status? You bet!
Should we assume all mexicans are illegal, certainly not, but we won't know unless we ask.
Question for the day: If you have 10 people, 5 are in your country legally and 5 are in the country illegally, how do you find the 5 illegal people?
A) assume they are all legal.
B) if you randomly pick one and he is offended that you suggested he could possibly be illegal,(whether illegal or not) you stop trying to determine the 5 illegal ones.
C) ask them all for the proof that the host gov't has issued them to show that they are legal.
D)_____________________________________
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
The effect is exactly the same as if they named Hispanics directly, as opposed to immigrants. In effect, it makes the law race-based, even if indirectly.
That certainly does not make it illegal. Thank God emotions have no weight in the eyes of the law. Discrimination in a legal sense does not concern itself with the ends, but rather the means by which you achieve those ends. A law that targets illegal immigrants by fairly checking the immigration status of all is constitutional, even when it affects mainly hispanics.
Michael, the distinction between race based and racial effect is dramatic; yet you seem to ignore it.
I gave examples above of laws that have the effect of targeting one race above others, that effect is ancillary to the purpose. So long as the purpose of the law is not to target a race the law is just fine. The laws you are referring to said "black people can not sit here." That is race based.
A Mexican that is in the United States without permission is ILLEGAL because of his immigration status, NOT his race. The law effects white, black, hispanic, asian, whatever... comparing that to laws that directly targeted blacks in the antebellum south is a every large stretch.
To be perfectly clear, the government can, and should, pass laws that may have a greater effect on one race than others (most "white collar" crimes are committed by white people, damn racist laws). The ACT is illegal, not the color of their skin.
We'll see. These local and state laws are already being struck down, or are in the process of being struck down. There are some things local and state gov'ts can do, but not everything.
The solution, IS, and always has been, to close the borders. If your solution is to do everything you can to screw with illegals, EXCEPT close the borders, that's your business. And you get to accept or reject the consequences, I couldn't care less.
And when you guys are finally ready to get on the same page, and work on closing the borders, give me a ring. I'll be with you. Until then, this is all side-show.
It's easy to scream racism when likely 90 to 95% of the illegal immigrants in this country are latino.
Would these laws be racist if 90 to 95% of the illegals in this country were immigrants from Canada?
If you are of the bent to call these racist laws, then I really don't see how you can split hairs and say that building a border wall to keep Mexicans out isn't racist. We aren't talking about building a wall between the U.S. & Canada, so it must be racist against Mexicans, right?
Is there a Godwin's law on racism yet?
These laws aren't intent on targeting a specific ethinic group. They are designed to target illegal aliens, of which, 90 to 95% seem to be of hispanic descent.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
It's easy to scream racism when likely 90 to 95% of the illegal immigrants in this country are latino.
Until you guys are ready drop the side show, you're open to that charge. You can argue it, you can try and justify it, it doesn't matter, you're not going to change an opinion on whether or not you're a racist.
There is an obvious solution, where the charge of "racism" is really weak. It's closing the borders. Instead of taking the obvious solution, if you choose to support all these half-a$$ed, minimally intrusive measures, you're going to be open to that. There's nothing you can do about it.
That's just stating the obvious, I haven't called anyone on this thread anything. Not on this thread. [:P]
and Michael, I would prefer a secure border. My stance is clear, I just object to the notion that these laws are racist. Otherwise, I'm pretty much on board with you on this issue (I think).
I don't think I've made it any secret that my first priority on dealing with illegal immigration is tight borders.
I don't see how you can say that state protecting themselves in the abscence of any help from the Feds on this is racist.
What if similar laws were enacted in say, Montana or No Dak were enacted to deal with illegal Canadian immigrants. Would be be able to say that that's racist?
What isn't xenophobic or racist about locking Mexicans out of the country?
The Federal gov't, and every central gov't around the globe, absolutely has the right to control it's borders as best as possible. It has nothing to do with Hispanics, race, or racism, that is a right the Federal gov't has. It has not chosen to exercise that right.
On the racism deal as it pertains to local and state laws, perhaps you can't recognize it at racism. That's fine, but others do. So again, you can argue that it's not racism, you're probably not going to convince many. The easiest way to handle it would be to drop it and do an end run toward closing the borders.
You and I both know that while there is a great need to tighten the borders, eventually racial profiling will become a reality and dilemma for both border patrol and most cities in this country. I am not in support of the latter, so checks need to be put in place immediately, before we start accusing everyone of getting past the border illegally.
I have been too busy to follow the news but I understand that Bush has decided to enforce the laws that are on the book. If this really is the case I think he must be forcing the issue to bring it to a head. I mean even right wing radicals might take a different stance if they knew they would have to pay $7 for a head of lettuce, if they could find one.
There was a story in last week's World about a local Latin business that had canceled plans to open three grocery stores because of a downturn in business in Tulsa's Latin community.
I hear from one group of friends that people are choosing not to migrate to the U.S. (There are other job rich destinations.)
I hear from other friends that there is a labor shortage underway in the agricultural community and that crops in Washington State are rotting in the fields.
I saw some published reports from California growers asking Bush to reconsider enforcement of current laws because of a looming labor shortage.
I wonder how deep this is and how long it would take to go from crops not being harvested to something even more serious?
Saw this the other day:
(http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u92/smgrizzle/photo.jpg)
quote:
I hear from one group of friends that people are choosing not to migrate to the U.S. (There are other job rich destinations.)
I hear Guatemala is beautiful, especially this time of year...
quote:
Originally posted by Johnboy976
You and I both know that while there is a great need to tighten the borders, eventually racial profiling will become a reality and dilemma for both border patrol and most cities in this country. I am not in support of the latter, so checks need to be put in place immediately, before we start accusing everyone of getting past the border illegally.
What "checks" would you suggest? To me, even-handed application of the law is the only viable one.
Let's drop the race card for the time being. If Michael C wants to keep calling it a racial issue so be it, it's not to me anyhow.
Hometown, there is a hidden undercurrent in Oklahoma that's really hard to judge until November first arrives. We've heard more and more about hispanic workers throughout our industrial park getting out of the state by November.
The time has long passed for when we should have built "the wall". There is a need for the labor or else the hispanics would not be here. There are better wages here than back home, so that completes the incentive.
There will have to be a compromise for a path to citizenship or guest workers. Only the dumbest of rednecks wouldn't get that.
There should not be an automatic citizenship, but there has got to be a way to accomodate employers and their workers which would prevent causing a major economic cataclysm and will take the impending legal monkey off their backs.
Only thing I can think of is to make the employers come forward and document ALL of their workers presently on the payroll. They have provided a large part of the incentive for workers to be here in the first place. They need cheap, hard-working labor, these people need jobs.
Either come up with a path to citizenship or a registered guest worker program- pronto.
Secondary problem that most of you don't realize is that that companies don't just look the other way when they hire Hispanics. Most of the workers do supply an immigration and social security card. It's very easy to get forged social security cards and immigration cards.
There are definitely some problems on the horizon with unknown consequences.
quote:
Originally posted by Johnboy976
You and I both know that while there is a great need to tighten the borders, eventually racial profiling will become a reality and dilemma for both border patrol and most cities in this country. I am not in support of the latter, so checks need to be put in place immediately, before we start accusing everyone of getting past the border illegally.
What do you call what the border patrol has been doing for years?
Why is that
just now racial profiling?
Because Hispanic activists say it is?
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Let's drop the race card for the time being. If Michael C wants to keep calling it a racial issue so be it, it's not to me anyhow.
It's only a racial issue, if you make it one. It doesn't have to be, ever. You say you aren't one of these crazy rednecks that think we're going empty the US of illegals, but you support the same laws they do. The consequences are yours, whether you like it or not. So yeah, let's drop it, and get down to business.
Most of what you posted is current federal law. The path for current illegals in the system, should be through Resident Alien status. Give them X number of days to register as an RA at whatever locations, after that it's over. If you're here in an illegal capacity your gone.
RAs can be tracked. Make it to where they have to reapply for RA status every 4 years, like a drivers license. If you commit a felony, your gone. Make it to where after 8 years, you can apply through the regular system for Citizenship under the provision that you keep up RA status.
Shore up enforcement, secure the border, your done.
This the easiest thing to do, it has not been done because no one is demanding this of the Fed, and everyone is turning their rage on the locals and states. Aiming straight at the gov'ts that can not fix this problem.
quote:
There are definitely some problems on the horizon with unknown consequences.
Absolutely.
I am unsure how people on this board will respond to this, but I would give serious consideration to representing an injured, assualted, or murdered U.S. citizen at the hands of an illegal immigrant (like what happended in Newark or Virginia Beach) against any governmental entity or official who overtly supported a "sanctuary" policy towards immigration and that because of such policy the illegal immigrant evaded deportation.
quote:
It's only a racial issue, if you make it one. It doesn't have to be, ever. You say you aren't one of these crazy rednecks that think we're going empty the US of illegals, but you support the same laws they do. The consequences are yours, whether you like it or not. So yeah, let's drop it, and get down to business.
Most of what you posted is current federal law. The path for current illegals in the system, should be through Resident Alien status. Give them X number of days to register as an RA at whatever locations, after that it's over. If you're here in an illegal capacity your gone.
RAs can be tracked. Make it to where they have to reapply for RA status every 4 years, like a drivers license. If you commit a felony, your gone. Make it to where after 8 years, you can apply through the regular system for Citizenship under the provision that you keep up RA status.
Shore up enforcement, secure the border, your done.
You were doing magnificently up until this point:
quote:
This the easiest thing to do, it has not been done because no one is demanding this of the Fed, and everyone is turning their rage on the locals and states. Aiming straight at the gov'ts that can not fix this problem.
The Fed is clearly incapable of dealing with enforcement on their own. They simply don't have the numbers. The only way to effectively enforce the laws is to train local PD, just like Tulsa is doing, to assist ICE. State and Local working hand-in-hand with the Feds is the only workable solution.
Jurisdiction and legal recourse may still rest squarely with the Feds, but the actual leg-work of enforcement needs to be cooperative.
The only way it can be done locally, is through federal mandate. I think it would be correct to say that local officials would have to be in on it to a degree. It would have to be a federal requirement placed on locals, because some local gov'ts won't bother.
That being said, if the borders are secured, the problem tends to be self-repairing. You should, theoretically, constantly have less illegals in the system.
Michael, you are saying that there is nothing the local can do? Oh great federal government, please solve all our problems.
I really hope the courts rule that such is not the case. Granted, most local action is a site specific band aid, but enough band aids could stop the bleeding.
Doesn't the charge of racism by a Christian leader of a national organization bother you? He serve as an advisor to the President of the United States on immigration reform and his organization says it's going to sue our state! In other words, his organization believes it is more powerful that our state laws. Where is the money coming from to wage this war against Oklahoma's right to protect its borders? This seems so wrong to me and an act that borders on hate itself because of what they are alleging. I think its an insult to every legal Oklahoman.
I called White House to voice my concern: 202 456-1111
quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder
Michael, you are saying that there is nothing the local can do? Oh great federal government, please solve all our problems.
I really hope the courts rule that such is not the case. Granted, most local action is a site specific band aid, but enough band aids could stop the bleeding.
Certain things, yes. When you're having to compete with other cities, and some enforce it and some don't, we'll see how that works if you can't fathom an extra federal requirement or two.
Holy carp, it's a fish! And it goes berserk at the mention of the words "federal mandate."
quote:
Originally posted by kakie
Doesn't the charge of racism by a Christian leader of a national organization bother you?
Yep. It annoys the hell out of me. It's right out of the Al $harpton, Je$$e Jack$on playbook.
Speaking of mandates, is it the feds or the TCSD who instigated the training of deputies by ICE. This isn't isolated, it's going on in other places as well:
http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2007/aug/21/collier_sheriffs_deputies_train_identify_illegal_i/
You might check into TPD and the Sheriffs dept. and see what they've done on that. Supposedly, they're going to help out on immigration enforcement. There's a few coppers on here that might be able to tell you.
Part of the problem of not making it a federal requirement to enforce within limits federal immigration laws, is that some cities and jurisdictions won't do it. Currently, these so-called "haven" cities aren't enforcing because they don't have to. That is, currently, a perfectly viable option for pretty much any local or state jurisdiction.
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelC
You might check into TPD and the Sheriffs dept. and see what they've done on that. Supposedly, they're going to help out on immigration enforcement. There's a few coppers on here that might be able to tell you.
Part of the problem of not making it a federal requirement to enforce within limits federal immigration laws, is that some cities and jurisdictions won't do it. Currently, these so-called "haven" cities aren't enforcing because they don't have to. That is, currently, a perfectly viable option for pretty much any local or state jurisdiction.
I just caught bits and pieces of Sullivan on one of the morning shows on the way to work. I was only half way into my first cup of coffee, so I don't even remember if it was on KRMG or KFAG. He was talking about TCSD deputies undergoing training from ICE. I believe it's a five week "course".
That's what I'm trying to figure out, if this is a result of a push from ICE or it is ICE cooperating with jurisdictions who are trying to enforce tighter state or municipal laws.
Pertaining to comments about hispanics leaving the Tulsa area.... I was visiting with the owner of a manufacturing firm the other day that confirmed this very fact. The hard part for them was that their workers were legal but they were having to leave because other family members, that were not legal, felt they had to move.
The rub on this for this business was that they were losing good employees... and they also confirmed that it has been extremely difficult to find able replacements. Mind you, these are not minimum wage jobs either. Not highly skilled but physically demanding... Their take was that from an idealogical standpoint they agreed with stricter immigration laws, the reality was that they were having to turn away business in the short run.
quote:
The path for current illegals in the system, should be through Resident Alien status. Give them X number of days to register as an RA at whatever locations, after that it's over. If you're here in an illegal capacity your gone.
This sounds remarkably like the failed amnesty plan. Once they get a green card, their considered legal, and with that come all the benefits. Who would pay for all the 15ish million new legals bennies?
One can only laugh at those that reflect illegal immigration as racism.
They either had to of been born retarded or had a giant burrito fall out of the air and crushed the only brain cell they had left in their anal orifice.
This subject is not even worthy of debate, unless your an Illegal or have friends that are....... as Nov 1st creeps upon all of you.
May you all wave goodbye to Oklahoma that day, as you enter into Kansas. Feel free to look upon it as the Trail of Jalapeno Tears.
Don't expect Kansas or any other state to put up with your nonsense either, like Oklahoma has had to do. Your choice most likely will be to eventually settle on the northern shoreline of Canada or return to your maiden land of Mexico.
Either one of these settlements are acceptable with me as long as you don't use the borders of the great state of Oklahoma to journey back through. Good luck to all of you and may you all find happiness on someone else's peso.
Yours Truly,
Porky
If you are actually endorsing a large scale police action to export millions of individuals from this country, then yes you are probably a bit racist. About the only thing worse would be to execute every one of them, or perhaps to enslave them. Taking pages from the book of "Ethnic Cleansing For Dummies" is neither a good idea, nor practical.
There are ways around the "amnesty" problem, built into the current system. It's called "Resident Alien" (Temporary Resident), not to be confused with Green Card (aka Permanent Resident.) It'll take a tweek here and there, but an overhauled RA system solves the problem. The "Green Card" system would be of little use and should be phased completely out.
Resident Alien
A foreigner who is a permanent resident of the country in which he or she resides but does not have citizenship.
To fall under this classification in the U.S., you need to either currently have a green card or have had one in the last calendar year. You also fall under the U.S. classification of resident alien if you have been in the U.S. for more than 31 days during the current year along with having been in the U.S. for at least 183 days over a three-year period that includes the current year.
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/residentalien.asp
The way I read this it says you have to have a green card before one can become a resident alien. How can one be a RA without one?
quote:
There are ways around the "amnesty" problem...
I guess we could create a different name for it. It would still be the same thing. Once they become legal, there is no reason to go home, and why would they want to? Part of the current problem is that they overstay their visas and such. It would be interesting to see data on how many actually return home as they are required/supposed to do.
Resident alien is a generic term covering both temporary or permanent residents. A green card (//%22http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Permanent_Resident_Card%22) signifies that a person is a lawful permanent resident. It's revocable.
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
Resident alien is a generic term covering both temporary or permanent residents. A green card (//%22http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Permanent_Resident_Card%22) signifies that a person is a lawful permanent resident. It's revocable.
Clarification is needed here. A green card
issued by the U.S. Government signifies a person is a lawful permanent resident.
Fakes appear to be easy to obtain.
It's been reported 20,000 or so illegals have already fled the area. Where did these people live? Does this sound right? Did they live in a home where 20-30 illegals had beds or what? Any ideas.
quote:
Yep. It annoys the hell out of me. It's right out of the Al $harpton, Je$$e Jack$on playbook.
Speaking of mandates, is it the feds or the TCSD who instigated the training of deputies by ICE. This isn't isolated, it's going on in other places as well:
http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2007/aug/21/collier_sheriffs_deputies_train_identify_illegal_i/
I like this part in the article:
"Section 287(g) of the Immigration and Nationality Act allows state and local law enforcement agents to investigate, detain and
arrest aliens on civil and criminal grounds if the agents have received the proper training.
When their training is complete the deputies will have earned the security clearance to use
federal computer systems and databases."
This county in the article said it cost them (the citizens) $9 million a year to jail illegals. Does anyone have figures for Tulsa or Oklahoma. Anyone seen anything???
quote:
Originally posted by kakie
It's been reported 20,000 or so illegals have already fled the area. Where did these people live? Does this sound right? Did they live in a home where 20-30 illegals had beds or what? Any ideas.
Yeah, I have an idea. I call BS.
20,000 people is a LOT of people for Tulsa. If that many left there would be mass vacancies in rental properties (2,000 if they lived 10 to a place. There are only 150K households in Tulsa County so that would be VERY significant). Not to mention there would be a ridiculous labor shortage in many sectors. With 3-4% unemployment taking 15,000 workers out of the system would cripple many industries.
I could be wrong, but that smells like hyperbole to me.
Looks like Arizona is likewise becoming a Racial Battlefield...
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0826sanctionsimpact08260.html?&wired
In an effort to keep track of the battle facing Oklahomans regarding HB 1804, zTruth has created a page with information and timelines and other good stuff about the National Coaltion of Latino Clergy (CONLAMIC) who is planning to sue our state. Their president, Rev. Miguel Rivera, is well-connected to George Bush's administration, it seems. This is deeply troubling. In fact, he may be meeting with Bush in September. See the "Upcoming" section.
Our law, if it is upheld as valid in court, has national implications. It's major.
Perhaps a few thousand phone calls to the White House to complain about the tactics used by this "so-called Christian group and its relationship to the White House may be in order. The White House number is 202-456-1111. You will get a live person after a short wait then they just ask you what state you are calling from then you speak what's on your mind.
..."The state cradles the great White evangelical ministries of Oral Roberts, Oral Roberts University, T.L. Osborn and others, turns place of torment for Latin families..."
This was translated to English from Spanish from a Presidential Bulletin Rev. Miguel Rivera sent out to his fellow Christian leaders across the country on Tuesday. The whole bulletin is available to read at zTruth. It's shocking.
I thought it might get your attention.
http://ztruth.typepad.com/ztruth/oklahomas-fight-to-protec.html
quote:
great White evangelical ministries
Huh? Has ORU taken an particular stand on this issue? Why is the good reverend targeting fellow christians who haven't, as far as I can see, disagreed with him? Is this scorched earth policy typical for the right reverend? Is it okay to ignore the tenants of your faith as long as the ends justify the means?
It makes me physically ill to defend ORU or that a-hole Richard Roberts in any shape, form or fashion, but I can't figure out for the life of me why he made that comment...
quote:
Originally posted by iplaw
quote:
great White evangelical ministries
Huh? Has ORU taken an particular stand on this issue? Why is the good reverend targeting fellow christians who haven't, as far as I can see, disagreed with him? Is this scorched earth policy typical for the right reverend? Is it okay to ignore the tenants of your faith as long as the ends justify the means?
It makes me physically ill to defend ORU or that a-hole Richard Roberts in any shape, form or fashion, but I can't figure out for the life of me why he made that comment...
This is what the National Latino Christian Organization said. zTruth is keeping a log of these events as they happen. It's a real eye opener. Complacency will only help the illegal foreign nationals here. Dont' we all need to start paying attention to all the attacks that are being hurled our way?
What will it take for you to do something? Such as call the White House since the president of this Latino organization may be meeting with President Bush in a few days. Why would the White House want to be associated with a Christian organization that is going to sue us and call us racist.
The White House 202-456-1111.
OPEN TO THE PUBLIC MEETING NOTICE:
9/24/07: GOVERNOR'S ADVISORY COUNCIL ON LATIN AMERICAN AND HISPANIC AFFAIRS, Oklahoma City.
Everyone who can should attend this important meeting. This council has not approved the minutes from the last two meetings which were somewhat heated over HB 1804.
One of the board members, Guillermo Rojas, says HB 1804 is racist and is attacking YOU, the legal citizen of Oklahoma.
Meeting Notice
http://www.sos.state.ok.us/meetings/notices/000685/0167540706061825.htm
zTruth
Rivera along with his illegal "friends" or whatever they are need to get out of my country. He says there is no desire in this country for 12 million illegals to be forced to leave. He is very wrong. I want them all gone. I'm tired of paying taxes and the illegals spending it because they won't work or they don't have a social security number simply because they are illegal..very recently the Tulsa Police Department's Fraud Division arrested one of Rivera's "PEOPLE" because she had stolen a lady's social security number and was using it here in Tulsa. Deport them all..I like many many others are sick of them. By the way, send Rivera and his cronies with them.
It is not YOUR country, rickmusic.
It is OUR country. I live here, too. And I think that you, kakie, sauerbrauten, and all the redneck racist ilk in this state are a buncha lazy creeps who have zero respect for the people who work hard to make a living in this country.
These people work their BUTTS OFF in jobs putting up with all sorts of crap. Most of them are not here from Mexico. They're here from Texas... and they've been here for years and years...
Don't the employers of illegal workers bear any responsibility for the current situation at all?
Sorry to interrupt...
Carry on with your little throw all the brown people out of Tulsa pow-wow...
I think these anti immigrant guys are the same persons posting in multiple names. They are the same posts with the same BS "facts."
You guys make racist posts. You can disguise it by calling them illegal aliens and harping on their "illegal" status. You have no compassion and make no distinction between people committing actual crimes and those people who are simply working.
Ultimately, this issue will be resolved and some type of status will be granted to these folks. In the meantime, keep up your racist rants and make Tulsa proud! Losers.
quote:
Originally posted by KingMutt
Ultimately, this issue will be resolved and some type of status will be granted to these folks.
Maybe in some states but thankfully not in Oklahoma. Nov 1st the "illegals" will be gone and rightly so.
....and if any of you want to hire them after that, get use to having Bubba for a cell mate.
The courts may put that law #1804 on "hold", or it could be overturned.
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
It is not YOUR country, rickmusic.
It is OUR country. I live here, too. And I think that you, kakie, sauerbrauten, and all the redneck racist ilk in this state are a buncha lazy creeps who have zero respect for the people who work hard to make a living in this country.
No one makes you stay. Most of us would be just as happy to see you leave as we are to see the illegal aliens leave. Join the exodus of your amigos.
(http://i23.tinypic.com/33207k9.jpg)
Oklahoma's Immigration Reform is in the spotlight again. Among other things, House Bill 1804 makes it illegal to harbor or transport undocumented aliens and makes it illegal for businesses to hire them, or for them to receive government benefits. HB 1804 takes effect November 1, 2007, but as The News On 6's Steve Berg reports, Hispanic leaders are vowing to stop it before it starts.
The Reverend Miguel Rivera from the National Coalition of Latin Clergy and Christian Leaders announced Friday it will file a lawsuit in federal court against Oklahoma's Immigration Reform Law, and seek an immediate injunction against it.
"The 1804 is a frivolous law, a frivolous law," Reverend Miguel Rivera, Coalition of Latin Clergy and Christian Leaders said.
Rivera says they will argue the law is unconstitutional and that federal law supersedes state law in this case, sometimes referred to as the pre-emptive doctrine of the constitution.
"We have sufficient evidence that the pre-emptive doctrine, it's being violated by 1804," said Rivera.
Reverend Rivera says while his group opposes the Oklahoma law, it supports some kind of comprehensive immigration reform.
http://www.kotv.com/news/topstory/?id=136864
quote:
Originally posted by Double A
No one makes you stay. Most of us would be just as happy to see you leave as we are to see the illegal aliens leave. Join the exodus of your amigos.
My AMIGOS are Americans. Most of the hispanics in Tulsa are here LEGALLY.
And, who is this Tulsa activist group you speak of, "most of us"???
Because most of the people I meet here in Tulsa are NOT the kind of activist anti-immigrant ilk that I see posting over-and-over ad infinitum on this forum pretending to speak for most Okies... the handful of pseudo-patriots who insist all the brown-skinned people who speak spanish in this city are here illegally...
I'm convinced the exodus of hispanics is overblown....... so far. I've seen a few people move but most are staying (though many NOW feel uncomfortable here)...
If Okies treat their hispanic friends, co-workers and neighbors like criminals, then you'll probably get your wish, Double A....... throw the baby out with the bathwater and you'll see the economic vitality of the city of Tulsa shrivel up like a prune...
That's not a threat... the brain/talent drain has already been going on for years...
quote:
Originally posted by USRufnex
I've seen a few people move but most are staying (though many NOW feel uncomfortable here)...
if they are here legally then they have nothing to feel uncomfortable about.
quote:
Originally posted by sauerkraut
I favor "profiling". The illegals are taking away jobs form legal U.S citizens and lowering our wages and standard of living. We are all taxpayers and the illegals are costing every taxpayer money. We need to ship them back to their homeland. if frosts me when I see illegals flying the flag of their home country on their car or a window sticker of their homeland flag. If they like it there so much why do they come here? The foreigners need to fix up their own home nation and make it great not come here and take what another country has.
This is an ignorant statement. My grandparents' grandparents came to the US via Ellis Island from Germany. They spoke German until the day they died, and maintained German cooking traditions that have been passed all the way down to me. Is it your opinion that my ancestors should have been kicked out of the country because they "took -er jobs?"
I agree that illegal immigration puts a strain on services paid for by taxes. But instead of offering a solution to that problem, you have instead made racially motivated comments and attacked the latino culture rather than the issue at hand.
It is estimated that there are 12 million illegals working in the US. Most of them are doing jobs that no one else is willing to do. American businesses are now relying on the cheap labor to operate, and kicking the illegals out will only make the problem worse for American industries. It would actually be more responsible for the government to create programs for which employers assist in the naturalization of their workforce. Without a true effort to naturalize the illegal population, an underclass will slowly continue to emerge in American society. This underclass will likely mimic the African Americans of early 20th century America, the only difference being the absence of "de facto" segregation laws. Instead of focusing on kicking the illegals out, we should focus on allowing the illegals to help themselves, and require employers to keep adequate employee tax information.
quote:
Originally posted by perspicuity85
But instead of offering a solution to that problem, you have instead made racially motivated comments and attacked the latino culture rather than the issue at hand.
I read his post and no where in it did he make any racial remarks towards Latinos or anyone else.
If you can't understand the solution to this problem, I can make it very clear for you. Nov 1st is just a month away, make sure your friends are packed and gone by then or they'll be behind bars in an Okla State Prison facility.[^]
quote:
Originally posted by Wingnut
quote:
If Tulsa decided to round up all Hispanics, check them for immigration papers, then let the legal citizens go, it would be racist because you infringed of the rights of US citizens by sequestering them based on race/ethnicity.
Fill me in here...once someone becomes legal, does that mean that no one is allowed to ask them about their status?
If I migrated, legally, to a country that had a problem with illegals from my country and they were working to solve the problem, I would expect to be asked about my status, multiple times even. Should I get angry that I was asked about my status, no. If I'm legal, I have nothing to worry about, under the law.
Are we supposed to tip-toe around the issue of enforcement and asking ones status because it might upset them? If so, we're in worse shape as a country than I thought.
I'm sorry, but I just don't see it as racist. Do we have a right to ask someone who can't speak english their legal status? You bet!
Should we assume all mexicans are illegal, certainly not, but we won't know unless we ask.
Question for the day: If you have 10 people, 5 are in your country legally and 5 are in the country illegally, how do you find the 5 illegal people?
A) assume they are all legal.
B) if you randomly pick one and he is offended that you suggested he could possibly be illegal,(whether illegal or not) you stop trying to determine the 5 illegal ones.
C) ask them all for the proof that the host gov't has issued them to show that they are legal.
D)_____________________________________
A: Local entities should assume all are legal, it is the jurisdiction of the INA to find and deport illegals. If local entities decide to check for credentials then they need to do it to everyone regardless of ethnicity.
Did you realize that every (legal) visitor to the US needs to apply for and present a Visa before they are allowed into the country. Anyone that wants to go to Disneyworld or see Times Square has to book an interview with the US consulate in their country up to six months in advance, pay a large amount of money and fill out dozens of documents. All we are doing is keeping out the people we want visiting our country, not the people who have no right to be here. Lost tourism dollars are in the billions each year and we still have no better sense of security.
I've travled to many foreign countries and did not have to apply for a Visa unless my stay was longer than 30 days. We have to have a better solution to securing points of entry than we have now.
quote:
"Section 287(g) of the Immigration and Nationality Act allows state and local law enforcement agents to investigate, detain and arrest aliens on civil and criminal grounds if the agents have received the proper training.
After the training, local law enforcement will have the ability to deal with illegal aliens. By assuming all are legal doesn't solve the issue of illegal immigration.
You are correct in that we need a better way to secure our ports.
I don't see that allowing mexican trucks into the country with minimal, if any, inspections is going to help secure these United States in any way, shape, or form. If anything, thats what a terrorist would want, a free ride in. And, apparently, thats just what we're trying to give them.