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Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: Ed W on September 30, 2007, 11:16:01 am ...so maybe the Tulsa World will get back to reportage rather than cheerleading. The relentless drumbeating for the river tax is getting annoying. I guess I shouldn't expect more from the local plutocrats. The rest of us ordinary people are just supposed to follow the advice of our betters, vote the tax in, and dutifully pay it.
On the other hand, if the voters give a resounding NO, will the World's editorial page print a we-were-wrong-to-support-this-tax story? I won't hold my breath. Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: waterboy on September 30, 2007, 01:20:57 pm I forget. Tell me again why you expect a privately owned newspaper whose future success is closely tied to the prosperity of the community it serves, would give equal time to the persistent anti-tax, anti-growth, nattering nabobs of negativism view of this project? (not to imply, sir, that you are in that group [;)]).
If they had evidence of it being illegal, fraudulently conceived and executed or part of some nefarious mystery, then as journalists they would have an obligation to expose that. And they would. Remember, Great Plaines DID make the headlines even though the World owners were players. But just because you're against something doesn't mean you get equal time in a newspaper. Maybe publicly funded TV but not print. Next you'll be wondering why Tulsa People and Oklahoma Magazine aren't pimping for the nays. Or why Urban Tulsa IS pimping for the nays. Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: RecycleMichael on September 30, 2007, 08:05:59 pm I agree Ed.
I don't ever remember an idea that has split our town more than this. Good people on both sides are acting as if this was the most important vote of their life. It is only four tenths of a penny. The third penny sales tax that we vote on every five years is two and a half times that. Only ten more days... Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: Conan71 on October 01, 2007, 08:35:31 am quote: Actually, a personal conversation with the publisher of UTW reveals he's voting for the tax. They have given both sides plenty of column space, though I don't understand why Terry Simonson has been noticeably quiet since late July. They had something from him in there every week for about five weeks. I think every publication is going to have an editorial agenda to promote issues which serve them well or their personal philosophies. Growing up, it seems that most of the self-serving was done on the op-ed page, not disguised as hard news as it is done now. Honestly, if we didn't get the World at work, I'd never read it anymore. I get better local news on the radio or on TulsaNow. [:P] Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: waterboy on October 01, 2007, 08:53:38 am quote: You caught me there. I don't regularly read UT because, frankly, I'm not their demo. The few I had seen were dominated by critical Bates columns. I do think the River tax is hard news for the local area. They have made it hard news anyway. Even though I am not a big World supporter (I once worked for them) if you peruse it carefully it is usually the best source for local info. and really more likely to be a "just the facts, ma'am" opertion. I never trust details to be accurate online or the radio. Seen too much firsthand that was severely twisted on the airwaves and the net. Print can be carried around, circled with a red pen and easily embarrassed. Makes them work harder on details IMO. I wish the reporters were a little more investigative and less cynical but not my call. Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: Rico on October 01, 2007, 10:16:01 am Originally posted by waterboy.
quote: So....... I have to draw the conclusion from this statement.. that the Sunday article regarding the "Chattanooga River Project"... was mostly a parallel of where the River project in Tulsa will lead us... as implied.... From one farmer to another......"Hogwash..! Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: waterboy on October 01, 2007, 02:01:41 pm quote: I also did not think that was a valid comparison. If they had shown that the nature and operation of that river was similar to the Arkansas...maybe. But don't confuse their advocacy journalism with their factual coverage of little known events. They have a large committment of reporters in many different areas that by default are going to find out and report on more than the other media. We may not like HOW they report, but I think their reporters are smarter and more tuned in to local news than all the others. However, I find it odd that NO media as far as I can tell, reported on the train wreck over in the West Tulsa yards last week. Apparently a tanker car was squashed between two other cars and de-railed causing a huge backup and a week's worth of work. Fortunately it wasn't filled with flammables. With all the concern of terrorism, the refineries nearby and the military equipment transported through there, one would have thought it was newsworthy. Channel 8 looks right down on the scene. Did I miss that story? Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: Ed W on October 01, 2007, 03:54:49 pm Maybe this should be a thread by itself, bus since we're talking about the Tulsa World, do any of you think the river vote story has pushed other newsworthy information off their pages? I'm thinking about the proposed bridge across the Arkansas. I haven't heard anything about it recently.
Just talk amongst yourselves. Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: Steve on October 01, 2007, 05:06:37 pm quote: I agree Ed W. I used to subscribe to the Tribune, and switched to the World when it became the only daily option for a newspaper in Tulsa. We all know by now what the World management's position is on the river tax, but I find the daily barage of pro-tax articles and editorials to be very offensive. Being the only major daily newspaper in town, they should take a more neutral stance, or at least end the daily river tax rah rah. My World subscription comes up for its annual renewal in about 20 days; I have subscribed to a local Tulsa newspaper for the past 35 years and am now seriously considering ending that habit. Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: waterboy on October 01, 2007, 05:59:31 pm quote: Steve, the complaint when the plan was introduced was that there were not enough details. That there were too many questions unanswered and on and on. Well, the local newspaper took it upon themselve to find and print those answers. Heck, they even printed the negative views of those answers! One might say they were responsive to the publics demands. But still, they are criticized for doing that. Everyone hates their hometown newspaper. Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: Steve on October 01, 2007, 06:32:09 pm quote: The issues were always vividly clear to me from the onset, without further explanation from the World. The Tulsa World, with their series of question and answer articles, just has further perpetuated their "vote yes" bias. The paper's slanted stance is an insult to those of us that consider ourselves educated and have a mind of our own. The World is the only surviving major daily in Tulsa and they should present facts only and leave the judgement up to us voters. They can present editorial opinion on various subjects, but not beat the issue to death as they have done with the river tax issue. They are printing articles as "news" but the clear intention is to promote the passage of the river tax. Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: waterboy on October 01, 2007, 08:42:44 pm quote: Interesting concept for a metro newspaper. You should print your own newspaper and see if it works. No one else has ever done it, but it sounds nice. No insults, no bias, no judgements, just disseminating information to an educated public. Like Weekly Reader did back in the 50's in public schools. Then we could talk CBS, ABC and Fox into doing it on TV. Honestly, the newspaper is not PBS. It receives no government money. If they aren't serving the public they wither away. They can, do and should print whatever they think will make them a profit and still pay for the lawsuits. What would people have to complain about without them. Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: Double A on October 04, 2007, 02:43:57 am quote: Good call. Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: waterboy on October 04, 2007, 08:25:48 am quote: Well lets look at this closely. TulsaNow is the only "major forum" in town. It receives a "daily barrage" of anti-river, anti-development, duplicative thread postings. Any effort to use facts and logic to counter a post is met with multiple anti responses. That is "offensive" to some. Makes it seem like this is just a website for a political movement. It is flooding effort to keep others from starting threads that might enlighten people. This barrage keeps regular discussions of other newsworthy events from being posted. The people making the theads have obvious biases, insult the intelligence of the educated readers, use snide name calling, distortions of truth, outright lies and pander to the masses. Sound familiar? There are more parallels but this is enough to ask if pot is talking to kettle. Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: chesty on October 05, 2007, 12:08:37 pm quote: Yes it can be offensive at times. Welcome to America. Until we all start speaking French and eating cheese, it will remain that way. Does the presence of "offensive" posts push other newsworthy subjects from being discussed here? I doubt it. It is as simple as starting a new thread. This is a different story with the Whirled. Now, Ed W., you've stirred the pot, now go draw another cartoon and quit causing trouble. You don't want to be put on double secret probation do you? Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: waterboy on October 05, 2007, 02:37:30 pm quote: It is not a different story with the world. And I only used the offensive remark to complete my satire. It has reduced the number of legitimate threads because if you respond to those you have an interest in, like the 14 different river related threads I opened yesterday morning, you hardly have time to respond much less go on the offensive like the anti's have. I congratulate them. It was a good plan. Own the Beacon, Urban Tulsa and Idiot Radio, take over the only decent forum in town, then complain that the World is unfair. Nice ploy. They have taken a nice little forum and turned it into a stupid piece of campaign diatribe. By flooding the place with unfounded, stupid assertions, they have blunted real discussion. Nice job. Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: Ed W on October 05, 2007, 03:48:40 pm quote: Damn, another jarhead! They're EVERYWHERE! You write pretty well for a dead guy, Chesty. As you know, I've already done my 2 years on double secret probation. What's really weird is that those same people who tut-tutted and muttered darkly are now coming around ASKING that I do some cartoons for them. It's surreal, I tell ya. But as for the river tax, the relentless hard sell with its implied threats of Armageddon on the Arkansas if the measure doesn't pass, and the pay-no-attention-to-the-man-behind-the-curtains of our local media, I'm nearly burned out on it all. I just want it to be over....until the next time. Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: Friendly Bear on October 07, 2007, 11:30:50 am quote: FB's Crystal Ball says: The local price of gasoline will not rise until October 11. Reason being: The local favors trading consortium wants to hold down the gasoline price until after the Kaiser River Tax election to make people feel more prosperous. More willing to GIVE of themselves every time they purchase a good in Tulsa County over the next 7 years. Every time gas takes a jump of 10 - 15 cents per gallon, people feel squeezed. The local ruling Oligarchs definitely do NOT want people to feel squeezed on Oct. 9. They want them feeling PROSPEROUS, and to Vote Yes For the Children. So, watch for the next gas hike to take place Oct. 11, to pay back Quick-Rip and Chester the Jester for all their enourmous help in trying to pass the River Tax. Watch and see. FB predicts it will jump towards the end of next week. Probably Thursday. Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: rwarn17588 on October 07, 2007, 12:06:29 pm Nice try at another dumb conspiracy theory.
But the fact is that gas prices right now are lower in Rogers County -- which has absolutely no stake in the river tax -- than Tulsa County. And gas prices are low in the mid-section, especially in Missouri. http://www.gasbuddy.com/gb_gastemperaturemap.aspx And if gas prices have been lower for a few weeks -- especially when the crude oil market has been going up to $80 -- logic tells you that the price of gas will eventually do up. Plus, heating oil season in the Northeast is coming up fast, which will put pressure on supply. Take your meds, Bear. They'll make you less paranoid. Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: Friendly Bear on October 07, 2007, 06:16:48 pm quote: We'll find out in a few days, when the gas price goes up AFTER the Oct. 9 Kaiser River Tax election. Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: RecycleMichael on October 07, 2007, 07:53:18 pm According to your conspiracy theory, gas prices would go up after the election in Tulsa County only.
The QuikTrips in Tulsa are $2.53 per gallon today. http://www.tulsagasprices.com/ The QuikTrips in Dallas are $2.49 per gallon today. http://www.dallasgasprices.com/ The QuikTrips in Wichita are $2.56 per gallon today. http://www.wichitagasprices.com/ We can check and see if you are right. Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: Friendly Bear on October 08, 2007, 07:41:07 am quote: We'll find out later this week if the FB Crystal Ball is still shining and devining. Seem to remember that immediately after the Sinclair Refinery was fined for falsifying their pollution testing records, that gasoline jumped 10-cents per gallon. So WE could pay for THEIR EPA fine?? Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: RecycleMichael on October 08, 2007, 07:52:42 am Sinclair does not control the retail price of gasoline.
Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: Friendly Bear on October 08, 2007, 01:08:55 pm quote: Quick-Rip and Chester the Jester exerts control over the local gasoline price. Another TULSA PREMIUM! Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: Double A on October 08, 2007, 10:25:14 pm quote: I noticed you threw in the word retail instead of just saying Sinclair does not control the price of gasoline. Anything to that? Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: pfox on October 09, 2007, 08:55:07 am quote: Oh...were just getting started Michael. LOL. Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: swake on October 09, 2007, 09:17:57 am quote: I don’t even think the Sinclair refinery makes gasoline currently. I’m pretty sure all they make are motor oil and lubricants. It would be really hard to control the price of a product you don’t even make. Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: Friendly Bear on October 09, 2007, 04:08:57 pm quote: Afraid you're mixing up the Sunoco Refinery with the Sinclair Refinery. Sinclair is principally fuel, 70,000 bbls. of crude per day processed into primarily gasoline. Sunoco is principally motor oils. Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: doofus on October 11, 2007, 10:24:58 am Good to know, about the 70k barrels of oil processed daily at Sinclair. Does it present any particular terrorism concerns for those of us living close to it?
And one more question: is the refinery at Ponca City still in operation? (Seems like there was another one west of Ponca City too??) ..just curious Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: jne on October 11, 2007, 11:25:10 am The refinery in Ponca City is still in operation. Conoco/Phillips just moved all the white-collar jobs to Bartlesville.
Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: swake on October 11, 2007, 11:27:28 am quote: Um, the price went down today, not up. Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: rwarn17588 on October 11, 2007, 11:55:49 am Friendly Bear wins the Booby Prize of the week.
That's because of his fearless prediction that Tulsa's oligarchy or monarchy or whateverarchy maintaining so-called "Tulsa Premium" would hold gas prices down before the river-tax vote, then raise them again on Thursday. Whether this rant was made with spittle-flecked lips is not known. But I digress. It's Thursday, and my local QuikTrip has DROPPED the price in the past two days. Well, I thought, maybe this is an outlier. What's it doing all over town? Citing tulsagasprices.com, RecycleMichael noted that QuikTrip prices were $2.53 a gallon on Tuesday. Using the same Web site, I can see that the price at QuikTrips is now $2.49 a gallon -- a drop of four cents. Maybe Bear misspoke and said prices would drop. [}:)] What do you think about that? Hmmmnnnh? [}:)] Tulsa is a town where the cost of living is among the lowest in the nation, with low commute times, wildly affordable housing, in a state where the tax burden ranks in the bottom 20 percent of the United States. If that's the Tulsa Premium, I want more, please. [}:)] Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: Conan71 on October 11, 2007, 12:33:33 pm QT probably dropped the price based on a calculation of how much less their donation to River Parks will be now due to the tax not passing. [:P]
Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: chesty on October 11, 2007, 12:57:41 pm quote: Tulsa is in a state that has the 4th lowest tax burden in the country, this is true. Tulsa County has a total tax burden that is highest in the state, and higher than all 7 neighboring states. How's that a good deal, or more importantly, how is that going to attract companies to come to Tulsa? Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: rwarn17588 on October 11, 2007, 01:42:23 pm There are plenty of cities that have high tax burdens that no trouble attracting corporations. Look at New York, Chicago and San Francisco.
It takes more than low tax burdens to attract companies. Sometimes it's the infrastructure. Sometimes it's the type of work force that exists there. Sure, Tulsa has higher taxes than, say, a small town like Erick. That doesn't change the fact that Tulsa has one of the lowest cost-of-living indexes of metro areas in the country. (And, yes, this includes taxes. I can attest. I saw my property taxes go down by hundreds of dollars when I moved here from Illinois, in spite of the fact I bought a more expensive and better home.) Although Erick has low taxes, you don't see companies beating down its door -- at all. You need more -- a lot more -- than small taxes to draw corporations. Even though I have friends in Erick, I have no desire to live there. Big cities have amenities and benefits that small towns don't. That's why I -- and hundreds of thousands of others -- are here. Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: Friendly Bear on October 11, 2007, 08:03:28 pm quote: The Conoco-Phillips Ponca City Refinery is the largest refinery in the state. Still producing lots of gasoline......... Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: Friendly Bear on October 13, 2007, 08:14:32 pm quote: This past Friday, October 12, the local Conoco-Phillips Fiesta Marts in south Tulsa were posting an unleaded Gasoline price of: $2.59 per gallon. [:O] Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: RecycleMichael on October 13, 2007, 08:19:44 pm The Quik Trips in south Tulsa were $2.49 on Friday and Saturday.
Doesn't this disprove your theory on monopoly pricing and river conspiracy? If I were you, I would admit I was wrong and try to save face... You will be bear-ly able to claim any credibility if you don't. Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: inteller on October 13, 2007, 08:58:53 pm quote: Pryor has Google....tulsa does not....enough said. Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: rwarn17588 on October 13, 2007, 09:51:11 pm Meanwhile, F.B., the price of gas at QuikTrips are $2.47 or $2.48 a gallon on Saturday.
That's a drop of one to two cents since Thursday. Some conspiracy. Give it up, dude. Or should I call you: Booby Prize Winner? [}:)] Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: rwarn17588 on October 14, 2007, 10:48:38 am Inteller, here's my own quote:
"It takes more than low tax burdens to attract companies. Sometimes it's the infrastructure." One of the big reasons Google located to Pryor was because of its *power infrastructure*. And do you think Google would have bothered to locate in Pryor if a big metro city like Tulsa wasn't less than 40 miles away? I don't. Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: Double A on October 14, 2007, 11:27:12 am quote: Pryor, a community of only about 9,000, has 2 annual festivals that draw roughly 100,000 people to their community and they didn't need to build a 200 million dollar icon to do it. To put things into perspective, that would be like Tulsa having an annual festival that drew around 4 million people to the city yearly. Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: chesty on October 17, 2007, 03:05:41 pm Pryor also has Mid-America Industrial Park which has expanded so much in the last few years that they are just about at full employment. They have attracted several divisions of international companies that do things such as manufacture all the wire harnesses for the Boeing 787 and many Airbus aircraft as well as US military contracts.
Too bad Tulsa couldn't get those companies. But of course you don't need a four wheel drive to negotiate their streets (that's just a touch of sarcasm, but not too far from the truth for some streets). Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: swake on October 17, 2007, 04:10:25 pm Tulsa also has full employment. Part of the problem we are having is recruiting PEOPLE, not companies.
Title: I can't wait for October 10th Post by: swake on January 28, 2008, 07:58:31 am quote: Tulsa now has the lowest priced gasoline in the nation, average of $2.70 vs a national average of $2.98 So much for your conspiracy. Not only did gas not rise on October 11th, it's continued to fall relative to the national average. |