Any words on our county's future?
Certainly there was a contingency plan.
(EDIT) I think I'm feeling bitter. Aside from MichaelC's positive outlook I've lost the excitement I've had for development around here.
I do perk up with the reminder that we have alot going on. I'm just bummed that this was poorly handled. (Taylor's pissing off North side, the ad campaign for missing river children, Randi Miller's choice in lipstick color on her damned interviews.)
dammit
OK now this is just a pity party. I'm moving it to discussion.
"There's nothing. This was a once in a lifetime opportunity and there's not anything, there's no plans on the table," Miller says.
Miller said she tried to get that message across during the campaign. She says say goodbye to the millions of dollars in private donations too.
"It goes away... the private donors from the starts said if you invest in yourself in beautifying the waterways... then we will invest in the quality of life part," Miller says.
Miller believes if the private sector ends up developing the river...it will be a long time coming.
"Because I was so close to it, it was devastating to me because I don't see that this region will have a future to be able to have a future in the market place," Miller says.
http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=4d509acd-6717-444f-932a-40f7559e67e6
So did this mean that all that generous private philanthropy was only on the condition that they be allowed to reach way down into the taxpayers pockets?
Shocking...
I bet Kaiser will be back, maybe not next year, but soon. He is not getting any poorer, thats for sure. Last year his net worth was estimated at $8 billion. This year it is over $11 billion. If he continues to have such success with BOKF and Kaiser Francis, he could be one of the very wealthiest people in the entire world in a few years. (Currently ranks 26th richest in America, closing in on Michael Bloomberg)
quote:
Originally posted by YoungTulsan
I bet Kaiser will be back, maybe not next year, but soon. He is not getting any poorer, thats for sure. Last year his net worth was estimated at $8 billion. This year it is over $11 billion. If he continues to have such success with BOKF and Kaiser Francis, he could be one of the very wealthiest people in the entire world in a few years. (Currently ranks 26th richest in America, closing in on Michael Bloomberg)
well what is think is pretty damning is that, aside from a few million here and there, no private donors have stepped up and made huge donations like their forefathers did. The citizens have already taken the risk with V2025. SO I'm still waiting what the rich cats have to offer up to match that.
I wont be suprised if the QuikTrip gift goes ahead as planned. From what I heard, they had everything planned and ready to go, not just concepts. They might hold off a little while to punish the no voters for a bit, and then proceed with it (The idea is to have this and the Camelot store open for their 50th anniversary)
quote:
Originally posted by YoungTulsan
I wont be suprised if the QuikTrip gift goes ahead as planned. From what I heard, they had everything planned and ready to go, not just concepts. They might hold off a little while to punish the no voters for a bit, and then proceed with it (The idea is to have this and the Camelot store open for their 50th anniversary)
As I understand, they said they had to start in a hurry. Of course they were planning on building a park around a pedestrian bridge.
Yesterday I watched many of you implode over the vote. Please don't do that. They will be back. Don't you think for one hot second they are going to let that tax money go unclaimed. I'm just waiting to see who the next big name is that will go after it. It's all about the $$$$$$.
quote:
Originally posted by cks511
Yesterday I watched many of you implode over the vote. Please don't do that. They will be back. Don't you think for one hot second they are going to let that tax money go unclaimed. I'm just waiting to see who the next big name is that will go after it. It's all about the $$$$$$.
They may. But so will all the aginners who share your cynical "follow the $$$" attitude. And there is no likely change with the burbs stance unless they can be bought off cause they're all about the $$$$. I think you underestimate the momentum that is declining.
Well, I beg to differ with you about the 'aginners. We were being 'asked' to vote on a shakey plan that was being propped up by questionable motives. I think the Broken Arrow brochure ploy was hilarious. If they will present a plan, do it with some integrity, then I will vote yes. I did my job as a citizen Tuesday. If people want to rant about the vote or go the extreme of packing their houses and moving, fine. There won't be but a handful that act upon that idea. I think what happened in Tulsa on Tuesday was an awakening of those of us who probably didn't care very much about Tulsa while growing up here. I'm seeing a core of people who want things done right. Some of them my friends who could have cared less about government when we were in college. We started awakening with the channels, we'll finish when the right plan comes along.
My humble opinion ONLY. Have at it.
'They' meaning someone ANYONE...now I'm going on vacation.
The donations are gone, Rick Huffman of Branson Landing says his project is "off the table". You people blew it. You saved yourself something like $2 a month and blew off almost a billion dollars in river development.
Oh, and people in Jenks are looking into doing the dam there privately. Jenks, just like I said, will get it's dam, Tulsa is going to get nothing, for years and maybe ever. Good job fools.
According to KOTV, QT's project is going to be "significantly scaled back" and "A third of those polled thought it was the Channels plan"
In the immortal words of the Peanuts gang, "aaarrrgggg".
quote:
Originally posted by swake
The donations are gone, Rick Huffman of Branson Landing says his project is "off the table". You people blew it. You saved yourself something like $2 a month and blew off almost a billion dollars in river development.
Oh, and people in Jenks are looking into doing the dam there privately. Jenks, just like I said, will get it's dam, Tulsa is going to get nothing, for years and maybe ever. Good job fools.
Quite a temper-tantrum Swake.
Jenks getting it's own dam has been a possibility since before this proposal, that was made abundantly clear. Vic Vreeland might want to take a closer look however at what's happening in Washington though. It's looking like Bush is going to veto the bill which has $50mm in it for Inhofe to bring home.
Tulsa is owed Zink Lake improvements from V-2025 which, AFAIK were not contingent on Federal matching funds.
I think a lot of people like you are going to wake up one day and realize things can happen along the river w/o this tax.
I don't want to disparage Kaiser's generosity, but they could have done a little more due dilligence and figured out some way to be able to make this donation a year or two down line. Assuming the assets of the family foundation are in the $1bln range as has been suggested elsewhere on here, in all likelihood, they are going to need to get shed of around $100mm
per year.The Houston Chronicle article you cited yesterday doesn't make mention of any $117 conditional philanthropic gifts, contingent on raising taxes, which have happened down there.
quote:
Originally posted by swake
The donations are gone, Rick Huffman of Branson Landing says his project is "off the table". You people blew it. You saved yourself something like $2 a month and blew off almost a billion dollars in river development.
Oh, and people in Jenks are looking into doing the dam there privately. Jenks, just like I said, will get it's dam, Tulsa is going to get nothing, for years and maybe ever. Good job fools.
Meltdown in progress......
"A third of those polled thought it was the Channels plan"
Just goes to show how uninformed the average voter was.
(Or how ignorant they were)
quote:
Originally posted by breitee
"A third of those polled thought it was the Channels plan"
Just goes to show how uninformed the average voter was.
(Or how ignorant they were)
That means the people with the correct answers and plans did a poor job of informing the un-informed with their $1.3mm budget. Instead they focused on little kids and ridiculous economic impact figures.
I ran into tons of people who thought this was the islands. The islands made a lot of noise and begat this plan, but only those really active in the community knew that much about the new plans and concepts. Had the Warrens spoken up, said the Channels is cancelled, and they were now backing this cheaper, more spread out plan, it might've swung enough to pass.
However, the Warrens are too concerned with how to make things better for Maple Ridge and believe the city of Tulsa is bounded by 21st and 41st.
Miller: "There's no Plan B," she said. "River development is over."
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=071011_1_A1_hBoth58247
My way or the highway...
No need for a contingency, or another option, such as:
'Last week, officials from the company visited Tulsa to once again say they were interested in building a mixed-use development along the west bank of the river between 11th and 21st streets.
Cox said that's still the goal, but the company will need some type of public funding mechanism or tax increment finance district to help provide infrastructure.'
Given her statements, there likely will be no public river development while Randi Miller's in charge.
quote:
Originally posted by patric
Miller: "There's no Plan B," she said. "River development is over."
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=071011_1_A1_hBoth58247
My way or the highway...
No need for a contingency, or another option, such as:
'Last week, officials from the company visited Tulsa to once again say they were interested in building a mixed-use development along the west bank of the river between 11th and 21st streets.
Cox said that's still the goal, but the company will need some type of public funding mechanism or tax increment finance district to help provide infrastructure.'
Given her statements, there likely will be no public river development while Randi Miller's in charge.
Yeah, or conspiracy comment of the day: While Bob Dick is still pulling Randi's strings.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by patric
Miller: "There's no Plan B," she said. "River development is over."
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=071011_1_A1_hBoth58247
My way or the highway...
No need for a contingency, or another option, such as:
'Last week, officials from the company visited Tulsa to once again say they were interested in building a mixed-use development along the west bank of the river between 11th and 21st streets.
Cox said that's still the goal, but the company will need some type of public funding mechanism or tax increment finance district to help provide infrastructure.'
Given her statements, there likely will be no public river development while Randi Miller's in charge.
Yeah, or conspiracy comment of the day: While Bob Dick is still pulling Randi's strings.
When is is her term up? aka "Miller Time"
quote:
Originally posted by sgrizzle
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
quote:
Originally posted by patric
Miller: "There's no Plan B," she said. "River development is over."
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=071011_1_A1_hBoth58247
My way or the highway...
No need for a contingency, or another option, such as:
'Last week, officials from the company visited Tulsa to once again say they were interested in building a mixed-use development along the west bank of the river between 11th and 21st streets.
Cox said that's still the goal, but the company will need some type of public funding mechanism or tax increment finance district to help provide infrastructure.'
Given her statements, there likely will be no public river development while Randi Miller's in charge.
Yeah, or conspiracy comment of the day: While Bob Dick is still pulling Randi's strings.
When is is her term up? aka "Miller Time"
We need to get rid of Taylor and Miller and run that fossil Bob Dick out of town.
Could you guys come to some sort of consensus? Do you want the county involved with river development or not? You complained loudly when she took the lead, which previous mayors only talked about, and now you complain because she drops the lead. Is a person only a good leader when you all agree with them?
quote:
Originally posted by patric
Miller: "There's no Plan B," she said. "River development is over."
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=071011_1_A1_hBoth58247
My way or the highway...
No need for a contingency, or another option, such as:
'Last week, officials from the company visited Tulsa to once again say they were interested in building a mixed-use development along the west bank of the river between 11th and 21st streets.
Cox said that's still the goal, but the company will need some type of public funding mechanism or tax increment finance district to help provide infrastructure.'
Given her statements, there likely will be no public river development while Randi Miller's in charge.
Who knew she was a Goebbels? Get the morphine and cyanide. Call the kids into the room. "Kids?"
Private investment will jump all over the river if it's really a money-maker. Randi Miller is just whining that she didn't get her way - and as she says, if it's not done her way, the whole issue is dead. We won't get another chance to develop the river in our lifetimes.
What a crock. I trust that woman as far as I can spit a rat. The whole campaign reeked of good-ol-boy backroom agreements with no true regard for the community, only for the moneymaking and powermaking potential for a select few individuals.
As I read the ballot, the county asked for my money to use any way they pleased. Huh?
This reminds me of school levy votes in my hometown. The school board presented a number of proposals over the years, finally making a huge to-do (VOTE YES RIVER style) on one campaign. It was voted down. At the subsequent school board meeting, vituperative constituents stood up making impassioned little speechlettes about how the rest of us hated education. Uh huh...
quote:
Originally posted by buckeye
I trust that woman as far as I can spit a rat.
Was that a booth at the fair?
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Could you guys come to some sort of consensus? Do you want the county involved with river development or not? You complained loudly when she took the lead, which previous mayors only talked about, and now you complain because she drops the lead. Is a person only a good leader when you all agree with them?
No.
She's probably the least-trusted elected official in the area right now.
Looking at the polling numbers the county wanting to run the show is what killed it. V-2025 bloated their egos.
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Could you guys come to some sort of consensus? Do you want the county involved with river development or not? You complained loudly when she took the lead, which previous mayors only talked about, and now you complain because she drops the lead. Is a person only a good leader when you all agree with them?
She "took the lead" because it was a way to expand the county budget. She "took the lead" because of the urgency of the Kaiser Foundation donation rushing the plan out before it had proper time to incubate. I see your point as no one actually stepped up with a plan until now, it was only just talk until this action. I think action was forthcoming, maybe not this year, but soon. We actually have The Channels to thank for that, it got the buzz in the air about actually developing the river. There also just seems to be momentum towards doing something on the west bank no matter what.
But I think looking at Vision 2025, and looking at this vote, only river communities want to support "river development". So unless it is one piece of an overall "economic development" issue that has other portions to
bribe benefit other parts of the county - Then we need to focus on more local initiatives, city issues. V2025 was a push to get an arena built that ended up costing nearly a billion dollars to pay off other parts of the community into approving that arena. I'd rather not see a low water dam and land acquisition issue get bloated into another billion dollar issue just to entice people into accomplishing your initial goal of those river improvements.
And at that, only two of the river communities approved the tax- Tulsa & Jenks.
I think the Tulsa World math was wrong. I think Bixby passed it as well.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
And at that, only two of the river communities approved the tax- Tulsa & Jenks.
I hope you are not considering Broken Arrow a "river community". They are not built on or around the river, they just happen to have the river as an extreme southern border and general sewage treatment area. I think Broken Arrow would sooner sprawl east and develop the Verdigris than the Arkansas. http://www.brokenarrowok.gov/images/maps/city_limits_0604x.jpg
It did look like a couple of precincts in Sand Spring voted yes. I think between Jenks, Sand Springs, and Tulsa, it would have passed?
Bixby is of course, a river community. But they are already developing their area with NO plans for a low water dam, and nothing in the vote that benefits them. I think the only way we could really include Bixby in a river plan would be to 1) Build the 121st and Yale bridge non-toll, and 2) continue Riverside into 121st street all the way to Bixby to feed more people their way around a congested Memorial Drive.
But with something in it for Sand Springs, Tulsa, Jenks, and Bixby, they could probably work together to reach an agreeable solution.
Well, a few people voted no because there was not amount of money to be collected listed on the ballot. They were also disturbed by the question mark following the date the tax was to end.
Most saw a lot of promises being made to communities who were not on the river. Promises that had no facts on how they would pay for it. So it is assumed that if the tax got passed it would never die so it could pay for the promises.
I was just wondering "What's the rush? What is so magical about right now?" What will it hurt to wait a few years and fix the streets, get more officers on the job.
It bothered me that Tulsa's wealthiest were threatening us to get us to vote yes.
They wanted everyone to vote them a blank check. No questions asked.
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Tulsa is owed Zink Lake improvements from V-2025 which, AFAIK were not contingent on Federal matching funds.
Funny, when I click here (//%22http://www.vision2025.info/category.php?category=zinklakeshorelinebeautification%22), I find out that you are wrong. Conan, that was just another half-truth that was spread by the kind of people who don't mind spreading half-truths. Note that they aren't talking about it anymore. Perpetuating this myth no longer serves them; they'd just as soon you forget about it.
quote:
Originally posted by YoungTulsan
quote:
Originally posted by waterboy
Could you guys come to some sort of consensus? Do you want the county involved with river development or not? You complained loudly when she took the lead, which previous mayors only talked about, and now you complain because she drops the lead. Is a person only a good leader when you all agree with them?
But I think looking at Vision 2025, and looking at this vote, only river communities want to support "river development". So unless it is one piece of an overall "economic development" issue that has other portions to bribe benefit other parts of the county - Then we need to focus on more local initiatives, city issues. V2025 was a push to get an arena built that ended up costing nearly a billion dollars to pay off other parts of the community into approving that arena. I'd rather not see a low water dam and land acquisition issue get bloated into another billion dollar issue just to entice people into accomplishing your initial goal of those river improvements.
This much I actually very much agree with you. I'm just about through sulking if some of the aginners would stop replaying their feeble arguments over and over even though they prevailed. I still think it was a missed opportunity to leverage someone else's money, but whatever. We aren't going to get roads so if someone has a better plan they should start building coalitions or we'll be talking about this for the next twenty years.
quote:
Originally posted by Chicken Little
quote:
Originally posted by Conan71
Tulsa is owed Zink Lake improvements from V-2025 which, AFAIK were not contingent on Federal matching funds.
Funny, when I click here (//%22http://www.vision2025.info/category.php?category=zinklakeshorelinebeautification%22), I find out that you are wrong. Conan, that was just another half-truth that was spread by the kind of people who don't mind spreading half-truths. Note that they aren't talking about it anymore. Perpetuating this myth no longer serves them; they'd just as soon you forget about it.
Prop IV, page 5
Prop IV V-2025 (//%22http://www.vision2025.info/includes/pages/downloads/uploads/04/file.pdf%22)
Zink Lake shoreline beautification, $1.8mm
Zink Lake upstream catch basin, $2.1mm
No mention of matching funds in the proposition. I'm assuming the page you linked to was saying that projects were on hold pending further funding.
"Informational" documents which were presented by proponents really, really torqued me. A memo and a posting on a web site as you referenced. Perhaps my understanding of the law is weak. Far as I'm concerned only the propositions and the ballot construed a legal contract with voters.
But let's move on. This is getting old.
I just want them to use the funds raised locally through the V-2025 tax for river-related projects. We should be able to do
something with around $9mm earmarked in the tax package for the river.
Maybe Robbie Bell will run against Randi Miller.
quote:
Originally posted by recyclemichael
Maybe Robbie Bell will run against Randi Miller.
I don't think he will do it. She will black mail him with "the business plan"
(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q55/71conan/TN/bidnessplan.jpg)
^Were you not around when Bell's plans were revealed? They were going to re-do the park entirely from the ground up, and a new roller coaster would have been built for the 2008 season that would have been the state's largest. Don't listen to that though, it's much funner to pass Robby off as a fool because he doesn't run out to defend himself against every half-assed personal attack.
quote:
Originally posted by Shavethewhales
^Were you not around when Bell's plans were revealed? They were going to re-do the park entirely from the ground up, and a new roller coaster would have been built for the 2008 season that would have been the state's largest. Don't listen to that though, it's much funner to pass Robby off as a fool because he doesn't run out to defend himself against every half-assed personal attack.
Shave, relax, I'm a Robby fan. That was created on another topic when Randi Miller was wanting to "expose" the business plan. I'm just as miffed as anyone they were jack-booted in the face of some serious improvements they had on the table.