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Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: FOTD on November 06, 2007, 03:23:50 pm They say people have the government they deserve, which would indicate we’re a nation of racist, fundamentalist predators headed for a rendezvous with destiny. We have met the enemy; he is bipartisan, and he is us.
“the torture never stops” Frank Zappa. Harry Shearer does the Beach Boys: Waterboardin' USA http://mydamnchannel.com/channel.aspx?episode=163 "You aren't gonna learn what you don't want to know!" The Presidency Is Now a Criminal Conspiracy Bush may not observe the rules, but the country abides by them by Keith Olbermann It is a fact startling in its cynical simplicity and it requires cynical and simple words to be properly expressed: The presidency of George W. Bush has now devolved into a criminal conspiracy to cover the donkey of George W. Bush. All the petulancy, all the childish threats, all the blank-stare stupidity; all the invocations of World War III, all the sophistic questions about which terrorist attacks we wanted him not to stop, all the phony secrets; all the claims of executive privilege, all the stumbling tap-dancing of his nominees, all the verbal flatulence of his apologists… All of it is now, after one revelation last week, transparently clear for what it is: the pathetic and desperate manipulation of the government, the refocusing of our entire nation, toward keeping this mock president and this unstable vice president and this departed wildly self-overrating attorney general, and the others, from potential prosecution for having approved or ordered the illegal torture of prisoners being held in the name of this country. “Waterboarding is torture,” Daniel Levin was to write. Daniel Levin was no theorist and no protester. He was no troublemaking politician. He was no table-pounding commentator. Daniel Levin was an astonishingly patriotic American and a brave man. Brave not just with words or with stances, even in a dark time when that kind of bravery can usually be scared or bought off. Charged, as you heard in the story from ABC News last Friday, with assessing the relative legality of the various nightmares in the Pandora’s box that is the Orwell-worthy euphemism “Enhanced Interrogation,” Mr. Levin decided that the simplest, and the most honest, way to evaluate them … was to have them enacted upon himself. Daniel Levin took himself to a military base and let himself be waterboarded. Mr. Bush, ever done anything that personally courageous? Perhaps when you’ve gone to Walter Reed and teared up over the maimed servicemen? And then gone back to the White House and determined that there would be more maimed servicemen? Has it been that kind of personal courage, Mr. Bush, when you’ve spoken of American victims and the triumph of freedom and the sacrifice of your own popularity for the sake of our safety? And then permitted others to fire or discredit or destroy anybody who disagreed with you, whether they were your own generals, or Max Cleland, or Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame, or Daniel Levin? Daniel Levin should have a statue in his honor in Washington right now. Instead, he was forced out as acting assistant attorney general nearly three years ago because he had the guts to do what George Bush couldn’t do in a million years: actually put himself at risk for the sake of his country, for the sake of what is right. And they waterboarded him. And he wrote that even though he knew those doing it meant him no harm, and he knew they would rescue him at the instant of the slightest distress, and he knew he would not die - still, with all that reassurance, he could not stop the terror screaming from inside of him, could not quell the horror, could not convince that which is at the core of each of us, the entity who exists behind all the embellishments we strap to ourselves, like purpose and name and family and love, he could not convince his being that he wasn’t drowning. Waterboarding, he said, is torture. Legally, it is torture! Practically, it is torture! Ethically, it is torture! And he wrote it down. Wrote it down somewhere, where it could be contrasted with the words of this country’s 43rd president: “The United States of America … does not torture.” Made you into a liar, Mr. Bush. Made you into, if anybody had the guts to pursue it, a criminal, Mr. Bush. Waterboarding had already been used on Khalid Sheik Mohammed and a couple of other men none of us really care about except for the one detail you’d forgotten - that there are rules. And even if we just make up these rules, this country observes them anyway, because we’re Americans and we’re better than that. We’re better than you. And the man your Justice Department selected to decide whether or not waterboarding was torture had decided, and not in some phony academic fashion, nor while wearing the Walter Mitty poseur attire of flight suit and helmet. He had put his money, Mr. Bush, where your mouth was. So, your sleazy sycophantic henchman Mr. Gonzales had him append an asterisk suggesting his black-and-white answer wasn’t black-and-white, that there might have been a quasi-legal way of torturing people, maybe with an absolute time limit and a physician entitled to stop it, maybe, if your administration had ever bothered to set any rules or any guidelines. And then when your people realized that even that was too dangerous, Daniel Levin was branded “too independent” and “someone who could (not) be counted on.” In other words, Mr. Bush, somebody you couldn’t count on to lie for you. So, Levin was fired. Because if it ever got out what he’d concluded, and the lengths to which he went to validate that conclusion, anybody who had sanctioned waterboarding and who-knows-what-else on anybody, you yourself, you would have been screwed. And screwed you are. It can’t be coincidence that the story of Daniel Levin should emerge from the black hole of this secret society of a presidency just at the conclusion of the unhappy saga of the newest attorney general nominee. Another patriot somewhere listened as Judge Mukasey mumbled like he’d never heard of waterboarding and refused to answer in words … that which Daniel Levin answered on a waterboard somewhere in Maryland or Virginia three years ago. And this someone also heard George Bush say, “The United States of America does not torture,” and realized either he was lying or this wasn’t the United States of America anymore, and either way, he needed to do something about it. Not in the way Levin needed to do something about it, but in a brave way nonetheless. We have U.S. senators who need to do something about it, too. Chairman Leahy of the Judiciary Committee has seen this for what it is and said “enough.” Sen. Schumer has seen it, reportedly, as some kind of puzzle piece in the New York political patronage system, and he has failed. What Sen. Feinstein has seen, to justify joining Schumer in rubber-stamping Mukasey, I cannot guess. It is obvious that both those senators should look to the meaning of the story of Daniel Levin and recant their support for Mukasey’s confirmation. And they should look into their own committee’s history and recall that in 1973, their predecessors were able to wring even from Richard Nixon a guarantee of a special prosecutor (ultimately a special prosecutor of Richard Nixon!), in exchange for their approval of his new attorney general, Elliott Richardson. If they could get that out of Nixon, before you confirm the president’s latest human echo on Tuesday, you had better be able to get a “yes” or a “no” out of Michael Mukasey. Ideally you should lock this government down financially until a special prosecutor is appointed, or 50 of them, but I’m not holding my breath. The “yes” or the “no” on waterboarding will have to suffice. Because, remember, if you can’t get it, or you won’t with the time between tonight and the next presidential election likely to be the longest year of our lives, you are leaving this country, and all of us, to the waterboards, symbolic and otherwise, of George W. Bush. Ultimately, Mr. Bush, the real question isn’t who approved the waterboarding of this fiend Khalid Sheik Mohammed and two others. It is: Why were they waterboarded? Study after study for generation after generation has confirmed that torture gets people to talk, torture gets people to plead, torture gets people to break, but torture does not get them to tell the truth. Of course, Mr. Bush, this isn’t a problem if you don’t care if the terrorist plots they tell you about are the truth or just something to stop the tormentors from drowning them. If, say, a president simply needed a constant supply of terrorist threats to keep a country scared. If, say, he needed phony plots to play hero during, and to boast about interrupting, and to use to distract people from the threat he didn’t interrupt. If, say, he realized that even terrorized people still need good ghost stories before they will let a president pillage the Constitution, Well, Mr. Bush, who better to dream them up for you than an actual terrorist? He’ll tell you everything he ever fantasized doing in his most horrific of daydreams, his equivalent of the day you “flew” onto the deck of the Lincoln to explain you’d won in Iraq. Now if that’s what this is all about, you tortured not because you’re so stupid you think torture produces confession but you tortured because you’re smart enough to know it produces really authentic-sounding fiction - well, then, you’re going to need all the lawyers you can find … because that crime wouldn’t just mean impeachment, would it? That crime would mean George W. Bush is going to prison. Thus the master tumblers turn, and the lock yields, and the hidden explanations can all be perceived, in their exact proportions, in their exact progressions. Daniel Levin’s eminently practical, eminently logical, eminently patriotic way of testing the legality of waterboarding has to vanish, and him with it. Thus Alberto Gonzales has to use that brain that sounds like an old car trying to start on a freezing morning to undo eight centuries of the forward march of law and government. Thus Dick Cheney has to ridiculously assert that confirming we do or do not use any particular interrogation technique would somehow help the terrorists. Thus Michael Mukasey, on the eve of the vote that will make him the high priest of the law of this land, cannot and must not answer a question, nor even hint that he has thought about a question, which merely concerns the theoretical definition of waterboarding as torture. Because, Mr. Bush, in the seven years of your nightmare presidency, this whole string of events has been transformed. From its beginning as the most neglectful protection ever of the lives and safety of the American people … into the most efficient and cynical exploitation of tragedy for political gain in this country’s history … and, then, to the giddying prospect that you could do what the military fanatics did in Japan in the 1930s and remake a nation into a fascist state so efficient and so self-sustaining that the fascism would be nearly invisible. But at last this frightful plan is ending with an unexpected crash, the shocking reality that no matter how thoroughly you might try to extinguish them, Mr. Bush, how thoroughly you tried to brand disagreement as disloyalty, Mr. Bush, there are still people like Daniel Levin who believe in the United States of America as true freedom, where we are better, not because of schemes and wars, but because of dreams and morals. And ultimately these men, these patriots, will defeat you and they will return this country to its righteous standards, and to its rightful owners, the people. – Keith Olbermann http://youtube.com/watch?v=arWJ358tZgU Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: guido911 on November 06, 2007, 06:36:33 pm Ask Olbermann how many people were "waterboarded" Ask Olbermann when the last time anyone was waterboarded. Oh, and ask Olbermann what Chuck Schumer's (Democrat) thoughts are on waterboarding. Quoting that glorified baseball card collector, whose ratings are always in the toilet, opinion on "Mister" Bush on the least watch alphabet cable news channel speaks volumes to whatever credibility you might have as a poster on this forum.
Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: guido911 on November 06, 2007, 06:39:51 pm Below is a video of liberal nutjobs waterboarding each other. Any thoughts on who they listen to?
http://hotair.com/archives/2007/11/06/video-lefty-whackjobs-waterboard-themselves/ Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: iplaw on November 06, 2007, 08:12:24 pm Hey AOX!
Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: guido911 on November 06, 2007, 08:20:40 pm And then there is this video from Code Pink. They are waterboarding each other. This is absolutely hilarious stuff...
http://hotair.com/archives/2007/11/06/video-code-pinkos-waterboard-some-poor-schlep-while-diane-feinstein-walks-on-by/ IP: Was AOX the guy that was trumpeting Olberdouche a while back? Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: FOTD on November 06, 2007, 10:37:13 pm quote: Hmmm.....attack the messenger seems to be the play here. This topic got some irritated, evidently. Were they against the subject or just Olberman? Keith, you're wrong about this...."And ultimately these men, these patriots, will defeat you and they will return this country to its righteous standards, and to its rightful owners, the people." It's too late. 52 weeks until nothing changes.....except things just get worse IMO... Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: guido911 on November 07, 2007, 08:04:35 am quote: Nope, just Olbermann. Don't care that Khalid Sheik got waterboarded one bit. The blood of 3000 in NYC, Washington, and Shanksville is on this scum bags hand and I have a sense that some retribution was in store. Plus, KSM gave up a terrorist plot while getting boarded, so BONUS. Keith "chicken and waffles" Olbermann's rants generally come on the heels of poor showings in the ratings as a means to stir up the Media Mattera, Daily Kos leftist whackjobs out there. Oh, as far his "worst person in the world segments", I wonder why Bill O'Reilly, who absolutely kicks Keith's donkey every night in the ratings, most often receives this honor? Is it because Bill O is worse than perhaps those who murder, rape, or abuse children? No. It's Keith's appeasement to his leftist supporters and his childish way of pouting after getting beat up in the school yard. Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: cannon_fodder on November 07, 2007, 08:32:56 am I'm not going to bother attacking anyone, mostly because I didn't read all the information posted here. I read the first line and determined that you had made up your mind and had no real interest in discussion. Then I chuckled at some of the responses and decided to post meaningless dribble too.
Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: Breadburner on November 07, 2007, 09:13:08 am (http://img.timeinc.net/time/photoessays/2007/harkin_steak_fry/harkin_steak_fry_08.jpg)
Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: guido911 on November 07, 2007, 10:32:27 am Olbermann: "Another patriot somewhere listened as Judge Mukasey mumbled like he’d never heard of waterboarding and refused to answer in words … that which Daniel Levin answered on a waterboard somewhere in Maryland or Virginia three years ago."
I found this quote the funniest (and perhaps saddest) of all. Here, Olbermann appears to equate Levin's actions by voluntarily being waterboarded to "anwser" whether waterboarding was torture to that of a martyr sacrificing his life to "answer" for some cause or even Christ's crucifixion as "answering" for the sins of mankind. Olbermann is such a drama queen. Incidentally, the funny thing about Levin is that even after being voluntarily waterboarded, he only suggested waterboarding could be "illegal torture unless performed in a highly limited way, and with close supervision." Funny, that point did not make it in his special comment. http://weblogs.newsday.com/news/politics/blog/2007/11/justice_official_testrode_the.html Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: tim huntzinger on November 07, 2007, 03:10:26 pm We crack up at KO's 'special comment,' the way he sneers and gets all high-horse is a riot. Fact is waterboarding is a tool, like a gun, or a rope, and how it is used defines its legality/
Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: Conan71 on November 07, 2007, 03:19:56 pm quote: Why is it so many protestors look like total douchebags? Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: guido911 on November 07, 2007, 03:33:05 pm quote: Being unemployed and living in your parent's basement has that effect on people. Oh, on Monday's waterboarding demonstration, turns out it what fake. http://hotair.com/archives/2007/11/07/and-the-academy-award-for-best-waterboarding-in-a-protest-scene-goes-to/ I guess these protesters not only look like douchebags, they are also candy asses. Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: Conan71 on November 07, 2007, 03:41:51 pm Someone please explain to me how this is a form of torture?
(http://library.thinkquest.org/06aug/02119/Caroline-Wakeboarding.jpg) [}:)] Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: guido911 on November 07, 2007, 03:43:40 pm quote: That's the point Tim that Olbermann, AOX, D Kos, Code Pink, and all others who apparently did not pass high school civics do not understand. It is CONGRESS' job to pass laws declaring an act such as waterboarding illegal. CONGRESS HAS NOT DONE SO. http://kennethandersonlawofwar.blogspot.com/ Instead, Congress wants Bush, the attorney general, or the justice department to do Congress' job and declare the act illegal. Of course, Congress is counting on the uneducated or blindly stupid public to ignore that fact so it can showboat on TV criticizing the president. Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: iplaw on November 07, 2007, 04:02:50 pm Why is this guy being allowed back on the board? Also, if the Admin knows (and they can find out) it's AOX, why don't they let him use his old ID?
Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: FOTD on November 07, 2007, 04:35:18 pm Torture is ALREADY illegal. Waterboarding has been considered torture for over a century.
Bush/Cheney is playing cya. Why do you support waterboarding? Just currious. Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: Conan71 on November 07, 2007, 05:12:25 pm Aox,
Allow me to re-quote myself. This is why I like waterboarding: quote: Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: tim huntzinger on November 08, 2007, 12:38:34 pm quote: Shooting someone is illegal, too, depending on the circumstances. I wish one of the candidates would come right out and say 'If I knew that someone had information that could save lives I would personally pour the water.' Scaring someone is a whole lot better than cutting a head off or slicing a face off with piano wire. If the boarding is done just to punish someone it should be illegal and decried, otherwise grab a towel and a hankie. Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: Hometown on November 08, 2007, 12:44:56 pm I admit I skimmed this thread. All I have time for. Has anyone mentioned the fact that we prosecuted the Japanese for waterboarding? Following WWII we prosecuted it as a war crime.
Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: rwarn17588 on November 08, 2007, 01:59:44 pm What Hometown said.
The trouble is with torture -- other than it's clearly illegal with the treaties we've signed -- is it doesn't work. The information extracted from torture is unreliable. This is indisputable. The "ticking clock" scenario that a few people cite for justifying torture doesn't consider that the information you will get will have you going willy-nilly all over the place, looking for stuff that doesn't exist. So not only will you have broken the law, but you be wasting a lot of resources in vain. I find it despicable that we're using methods that the Nazis and Japanese used during World War II and were prosecuted for. The U.S. brass was adamant to not let our soldiers use those methods. Eisenhower would be appalled to learn what has been happening in the past few years. Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: iplaw on November 08, 2007, 02:44:14 pm quote:Actually, it's not. Brian Ross from ABC has directly contradicated your statement on a number of occassions. The most effective use of waterboarding, according to current and former CIA officials, was in breaking Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, known as KSM, who subsequently confessed to a number of ongoing plots against the United States… -- ABC News Nov. 2, 2007 Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: tim huntzinger on November 08, 2007, 02:57:10 pm The US also summarily executed sabotuers in occupied Germany, you all good with that? We bombed hellfire on civilians in both theaters, probably killed a million folk, so I guess it is OK to bomb Iran into universal martydom since WWII ethics reign supreme.
Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: iplaw on November 08, 2007, 03:12:05 pm quote:How would you have waged WWII more effectively General Timmy? Limiting collateral damage is a convenience of war that, interestingly enough, only the US exercises, and certainly only one that is unique to the latter decades of the last century. Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: Conan71 on November 08, 2007, 03:15:06 pm quote: What you don't think some despicable **** wasn't happening under Ike's watch as a general in WWII and as President in the Korean War? Maybe not stuff he was directly involved in but certainly things going on underneath his command. It's called war, RW. Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: guido911 on November 08, 2007, 03:15:08 pm quote: Here's an example of Ross' position: http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NWYxY2RkOGE2YjExNzc0OTBhMjQ5MGQ5MTUzYmNlY2Q= Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: rwarn17588 on November 08, 2007, 03:26:14 pm I remember that. He was confessing to everything up to kidnapping the Lindbergh baby to killing Jesus Christ.
The claim that plots were foiled is not credible. This is what is so morally reprehensible: We've got Americans who are now defending the use of torture. Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: Conan71 on November 08, 2007, 04:11:37 pm Okay, fine, let's drop waterboarding and go back to just simply beating the **** out of these guys to get them to talk.
Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: iplaw on November 08, 2007, 04:24:52 pm quote:Really? Do you have any evidence to contradict Brian Ross' claims that say you're wrong, other than more unsubstantiated claims that "it didn't work?" Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: rwarn17588 on November 08, 2007, 04:57:11 pm Ross' report is hardly definitive. Note that he used the words "if," "that's what we're told by sources" and "that's what the administration says."
The information he's getting is secondhand, and he also says that "it's an open debate" whether torture works. That's hardly what I call a ringing endorsement of torture's effectiveness. Most military experts I've read say that standard interrogation to extract information is much more effective and reliable. Mohammed's confessions have holes all over the place. He even claimed to attacking a bank that didn't even exist until after his arrest. And considering that criminals tend to exaggerate, it's fuzzy on what he did and what he didn't. Since it's illegal to torture, you're putting your CIA officers and military members under a risk of war-crimes prosecution and the results are extremely erratic at best, why do it? Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: tim huntzinger on November 08, 2007, 05:24:43 pm quote: I would have dropped smarty pants loyyahs on the Axis until they gave up . . . My point was that while the US was not waterboarding, it was taking other actions that were a wee more drastic. If one were to say that our standards have declined, I believe we ought to harken back to them good old days and do like they did. Stop waterboarding and start bombing. Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: Rico on November 08, 2007, 06:29:18 pm Originally posted by iplaw. quote: Strangely enough this little item may have led to more damage than repair... Our President and others build a case for the use of "torture"... and yet they say we go out of our way to be humane during war.. I say.. had we gone to Afghanistan and placed no muzzles on the F-16's or any other portion of the Military... We may have prevented much of what has happened since that portion gave way to the ground forces... The earth, in and around Bin Laden's camp, should have been left as barren and scorched as that around ground zero. Many point to the fact that Kadahfi was eager to give up his weapons and distance himself from the conflict... I suppose having your bedroom bombed by an Air Force Jet and the subsequent death of one of your son's can cause a man to think differently. You continue now with your discussion of what we can accomplish by trashing the Geneva Convention... Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: iplaw on November 08, 2007, 07:17:29 pm quote:Again, I asked for evidence, not opinion, because your "opinion" of Ross' report is just that. He was clear that valuable evidence was gained during waterboarding of KSM, and not all of his report was based upon unsubstantiated claims from the administration. Was all of it valuable, probably not, but was a portion of it...according to Ross that answer is a definite yes. Your contention was: "The information extracted from torture is unreliable." This statement is demonstrably false. Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: iplaw on November 08, 2007, 07:23:18 pm quote: Interesting take. I don't see much I disagree with here. Afghanistan refugees provided much of the Al-Q manpower we now see in Iraq. quote: C'mon now Rico...you know the Geneva Convention doesn't apply to terrorists, even under the most liberal reading of the text. Are you afraid that the Al-Q is going to waterboard our guys after they've sawed off their heads and hung their burning bodies? Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: rwarn17588 on November 08, 2007, 11:03:10 pm <iplaw wrote:
"The information extracted from torture is unreliable." This statement is demonstrably false. <end clip> Oh, so you have experience in such matters? Since you're a lawyer, I guess that shouldn't surprise me. [}:)] But seriously, my contention about the erratic results of torture stands. You know that this is true, and don't pretend it's not. Don't play dumb. And I see that you have not repudiated my contention that torture is illegal and immoral. I can only conclude that illegal actions and immorality are OK with you. Two questions for y'all: If this were a Democratic president who advocated torture, would you be so energetic in defending it? Who would Jesus torture? Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: guido911 on November 09, 2007, 08:37:07 am quote: "Who would Jesus torture" is perhaps the most inane and irrelevant thing you have ever written. Your apparent belief that you can prove a point by throwing Jesus' name around speaks volumes to the strength of your position. No wait, RW, look how clever I am in the context of pro-life issues: "Who would Jesus abort?" There, the abortion debate is over. As for the illegality or immorality of "torture", I am reminded of the great, right wing, fascist nutjob Harvard law prof Alan Dershowitz who wrote about torture warrants. Here is an article: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/01/22/ED5329.DTL Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: tim huntzinger on November 09, 2007, 09:08:13 am quote: Lesse, Clinton wipes out 84 Branch Davidians and very little was said by mainstream conservative types. Clinton kidnaps Elian Gonzales, no outrage from Americans. If he had had the guts to authorize waterboarding, I doubt the mainstream would have freaked out like the left is now. Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: iplaw on November 09, 2007, 10:01:33 am quote:Fantastic post. Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: iplaw on November 09, 2007, 10:02:45 am quote:Not only would I defend them, but I would consider voting for them a second time around. Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: Conan71 on November 09, 2007, 11:05:03 am quote: Clinton turned the hose on an intern. Conservatives were horrified. Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: Breadburner on November 09, 2007, 11:13:48 am And then didn't even pay for the dry cleaning bill.....
Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: Conan71 on November 09, 2007, 11:42:42 am How many of you had honestly ever even given any thought to (or heard of) waterboarding before the Mukasey hearings?
This was just a cheap attempt by ranking Dems. in the Senate to stick a thumb in Bush's eye. How many other AG nominees have been asked about their position on waterboarding????? Amounted to nothing anyhow, he's confirmed 53-40. Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: rwarn17588 on November 09, 2007, 12:03:39 pm I've been against torture since way back when I was a member of Amnesty International in the 1980s.
Torture is simply morally repugnant -- period. There's no sense in the United States treating its captives like a backwards third-world nation would. I'm mostly OK with Mukasey. Sure, his stance that he wasn't sure waterboard torture is illegal seemed disingenuous. But he did find waterboarding repugnant (his words). And his credentials are impeccable -- a far cry better than that dope Alberto Gonzales. Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: tim huntzinger on November 09, 2007, 12:26:21 pm I am against torture, too. I do not think that waterboarding as an interrogation is always torture. For the record, false confessions can be drawn from any interrogation technique, it does not mean we just take a suspects word for it once they give us an answer. This is all about trying to gin up war crime charges against Dubya.
Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: Conan71 on November 09, 2007, 12:44:22 pm quote: I had suspected as much about you. [;)] Honestly, I think the people who edit the year-end news needed a new word to stick into the vernacular of 2007. Torture's been an issue since before this country was founded. You have to admit, grilling one AG candidate over this amounts to nothing more than D.C. politics. Right, wrong, or otherwise, this won't end torture. My personal perspective is, these are enemies we would shoot and kill on the battlefield, I honestly could care less what happens to them when they are interrogated. Putting someone in prison for 40 years is torture as well, yet I don't hear many people crying out for prisoners with life terms. Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: rwarn17588 on November 09, 2007, 01:53:44 pm <Conan wrote:
Right, wrong, or otherwise, this won't end torture. My personal perspective is, these are enemies we would shoot and kill on the battlefield, I honestly could care less what happens to them when they are interrogated. <end clip> Yes, but that's assuming that all the people we've tortured were taking up arms against the United States. There's at least one (there are others), a Canadian citizen, who was seized at an airport, tortured, and then released with no charges. I mean, why would anyone resort to such evil doings in the first place? If for no other but liability reasons, why? Shouldn't our nation be better than that? Why shouldn't we, to borrow an Abraham Lincoln phrase, appeal to the better angels of our nature? Or at least *try*? I'm hearing a lot of excuses for this evil activity, instead of standing up against it. That's disheartening. Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: spoonbill on November 09, 2007, 02:46:34 pm Liberals have removed our claws, our teeth and now they pick away at our brains.
Why should anyone respect us? There was a time when Americans had the will, determination and self-respect to do things that were difficult, and even ruthless in order to save the lives of their countrymen. But now we just don't have the stomach for it. We have expanded our definitions to help our detractors. It's our guilt that is at fault. Our bravest soldier is unable to pull the trigger in a rain of enemy bullets. He waits for an order to engage, and when he does, he is still in fear of retribution, not from his enemy, but from his own people. We are attempting to place the same checks and balances on armed conflict as we put on domestic dispute. We are attempting to bestow our constitution on people who do not live under our constitution, nor have any respect for it except when it may serve their own devices. Our politicians have become our enemy's most important weapons. We have grown beyond the capacity for war. It is simply too hard and requires too much determination and sacrifice. This will surely unravel us. We are an old lame tiger with a mother's heart. Perhaps someone will put us in a zoo. Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: Conan71 on November 09, 2007, 03:23:52 pm quote: Canadians, eh? (http://www.mwctoys.com/images/review_sp4_1.jpg) Concerned about torture of innocent people? Start with police and sherrif's dept's all over the country who torture Americans everyday first. Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: FOTD on November 14, 2007, 07:54:38 pm I'm shocked, shocked to learn that my brother is a member of the board of directors of a high-profile corporation of mercenaries that is well-connected with the Bush Regime, especially since it's one that I've been shielding from a Congressional investigation. How could I possibly have known?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071114/ts_nm/iraq_usa_blackwater_dc_1 We NEVER LIE, unless the truth won't work. Or we have to now personally redefine the words truth, lie, freedom, privacy, illegal, treason, war mongering, war profiteering oh....and torture. http://thinkprogress.org/2007/11/14/krongard-blacwater-brother/ "Oh, you mean THAT brother!" They've been hired to fight our war on drugs! The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ~Bertrand Russell Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: Neptune on November 14, 2007, 08:10:07 pm quote: That's not quite accurate. America has never been about torture, or slaughtering civilians. That's why atrocities in WWII, Korea, or Vietnam, were hushed up. That's why CIA does clandestine operations, so you don't know. These practices are completely un-American, always have been. That's why we were respected, we weren't obviously Evil. Now we argue it, as if it's all relative, as if we're not sure what morality or ethics are. As if there was ever a question. America is falling apart from the inside. Mostly by the hands of those who claim to be keeping it together. Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: rwarn17588 on November 15, 2007, 11:00:34 am Hmmm. The Mississippi Supreme Court ruled that waterboarding was torture.
In 1926. Because it was used by law officers to extract a highly questionable confession from a black man. And Mississippi in the 1920s was hardly what anyone would call a bastion of liberalism. http://www.isthatlegal.org/archives/2007/11/if_it_was_tortu.html Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: Friendly Bear on November 15, 2007, 09:48:03 pm quote: Waterboarding is torture. Legally, it is torture. Practically, it is torture. Ethically, it is torture. It IS torture. Any Questions?? Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: guido911 on November 15, 2007, 10:19:47 pm quote: There are actually more recent court decisions that contain similar language (waterboarding is torture). I am not sure defining waterboarding as torture or as a tough interrogation technique is what is at issue. The issue in my opinion is whether waterboarding is against the law and, if so, do we start arresting and jailing people who do it. Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: guido911 on November 15, 2007, 10:23:13 pm quote: No questions. Thank goodness you are here to answer those easy questions for of us. We have been debating this for days now and all it took was you to come in and straighten us out. Oh, while you are here, how about an answer for that whole "what's the meaning of life" thing... Title: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: Friendly Bear on November 16, 2007, 03:42:11 pm quote: Waterboarding is extreme torture to get quick results. Assuming the torturers do not actually KILL the victim, it leaves NO marks. How HANDY! Our military and CIA learned from the Russkies and also later from our very own U.S. Bureau of Prisons administration of SuperMax prisons, that isolation, sensory deprivation, and sleep deprivation are much more effective torture techniques to break down human resistance, but it is a LONG-TERM regimen. These techniques also leave NO physical marks. How HANDY! It took a couple of years of the rigorous application of total solitary confinement, sleep deprivation and sensory deprivation to turn alleged Al Queda terrorist and U.S. Citizen Jose Padilla from a functioning human being into, as his attorneys attest, a piece of furniture. Read up on their pleadings before the relevant U.S. District Court judge. Makes some interesting reading on just how far down into the slime our military, Federal police and their associated jailers have sunk. And, it makes me want to puke. Oh, and by the way, Jose Padilla was NEVER charged with what he was arrested and confined in total isolation for YEARS: He was never charged with the "dirty bomb" plot, that Attorney General Ashcroft trumpeted at his press conference. Remember, the press conference? The one with the statue of Blind Lady Justice in the background, with drapes placed over her bare bodice. Modesty. Modestry: The Hallmark of Compassionate Conservatism. Along with Waterboarding, sensory deprivation, sleep deprivation, and extra-constitutional actions galore. Welcome to the New World Order, Kameraden. Title: Re: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: guido911 on May 05, 2012, 07:18:24 pm With Jose Rodriquez new book detailing his involvement in the enhanced interrogation technique program (yep, waterboarding)...
(http://oneofthejonesboys.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/oh_noes.jpg) ...there has been recent debate over the success and legalities of the practice. Here is Adam Carrolla channeling his best guido (language warning) http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2012/05/04/carolla_rips_60_minutes_the_left_over_ridiculous_standard_on_torture.html Title: Re: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: patric on May 05, 2012, 07:38:09 pm With Jose Rodriquez new book detailing his involvement in the enhanced interrogation technique program (yep, waterboarding)... Well of course the guy in charge of torture is going to make himself look like the hero of the fatherland, but history will not be kind to him no matter how many self-serving books and interviews he has. The most successful interrogation of an Al-Qaeda operative by U.S. officials required no sleep deprivation, no slapping or "walling" and no waterboarding. All it took to soften up Abu Jandal, who had been closer to Osama bin Laden than any other terrorist ever captured, was a handful of sugar-free cookies. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1901491,00.html Title: Re: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: guido911 on May 05, 2012, 09:20:05 pm Well of course the guy in charge of torture is going to make himself look like the hero of the fatherland, but history will not be kind to him no matter how many self-serving books and interviews he has. The most successful interrogation of an Al-Qaeda operative by U.S. officials required no sleep deprivation, no slapping or "walling" and no waterboarding. All it took to soften up Abu Jandal, who had been closer to Osama bin Laden than any other terrorist ever captured, was a handful of sugar-free cookies. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1901491,00.html My gosh, if only Rodriquez had thought about the sugar cookie method of interrogation instead of getting himself all sexually aroused by beating the crap (oops, making them hold their arms up, force feeding Ensure, sleep deprivation, and waterboarding (all of 3 freakin murderers)), then all of the evilness or protecting Americans within a year or so after 9/11 could have been avoided... I go no problem, NO PROBLEM, with making people who have declared war on innocent men, women, and children being made a little uncomfortable. And screw history in this regard because who knows what could have happened but for EIT. Title: Re: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: Ed W on May 06, 2012, 07:39:22 am It's from the Book of Five Rings, Guido. To defeat your enemy, become his friend. And just like Nicolo Machiavelli's "The Prince", it's open to interpretation.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&ved=0CKIBEBYwCA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fgeneration.feedbooks.com%2Fbook%2F3953.pdf&ei=BH-mT8_JA-Ke2AWUxdimAg&usg=AFQjCNHQ9vkJTat184n35KgZCsN9AiETew&sig2=5mditppx4yv-AI2RjuCGrA (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&ved=0CKIBEBYwCA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fgeneration.feedbooks.com%2Fbook%2F3953.pdf&ei=BH-mT8_JA-Ke2AWUxdimAg&usg=AFQjCNHQ9vkJTat184n35KgZCsN9AiETew&sig2=5mditppx4yv-AI2RjuCGrA) Title: Re: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: guido911 on May 06, 2012, 01:56:10 pm It's from the Book of Five Rings, Guido. To defeat your enemy, become his friend. And just like Nicolo Machiavelli's "The Prince", it's open to interpretation. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&ved=0CKIBEBYwCA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fgeneration.feedbooks.com%2Fbook%2F3953.pdf&ei=BH-mT8_JA-Ke2AWUxdimAg&usg=AFQjCNHQ9vkJTat184n35KgZCsN9AiETew&sig2=5mditppx4yv-AI2RjuCGrA (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&ved=0CKIBEBYwCA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fgeneration.feedbooks.com%2Fbook%2F3953.pdf&ei=BH-mT8_JA-Ke2AWUxdimAg&usg=AFQjCNHQ9vkJTat184n35KgZCsN9AiETew&sig2=5mditppx4yv-AI2RjuCGrA) I will read this. Although I disagree with your mindless, stupid, baseless opinions (teehee ;D), I do take your opinions seriously. Title: Re: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: Gaspar on March 06, 2013, 02:04:24 pm FORWARD!
What an appropriate slogan. Progressives have come so far. Just 4 or 5 years ago, the idea that the government should have the right to spy on Americans without warrant was abominable to both modern liberals (Progressives) and classic liberals (Libertarians). The concept of capital actions such as torture and execution was considered a WAR CRIME and members of the administration responsible for such actions were WAR CRIMINALS. Imprisonment of hundreds of terrorists under military law was considered a constitutional violation. Rendition of high value targets was kidnapping. Fast forward to today, and you observe a president who acts outside of congress in the outright execution of thousands of people, including hundreds of civilians and children. Kill lists and "Tuesday Kill Meetings" have replaced incarceration and rendition. Wiretapping is a given, and any congressional oversight is considered unwelcome and unnecessary. As of today, the justice department claims that the president does indeed have the authority to order the execution of an American citizen on American soil with no due process. The classic liberals are indeed outraged, but modern liberals have progressed so far forward as to condone the authority of a president to preside unchallenged over the first and primary unalienable right of a human being--Life. Waterboarding made George Bush a war criminal. FORWARD! “It is possible, I suppose, to imagine an extraordinary circumstance in which it would be necessary and appropriate under the Constitution and applicable laws of the United States for the President to authorize the military to use lethal force within the territory of the United States,” Holder replied in a letter yesterday to Paul’s question about whether Obama “has the power to authorize lethal force, such as a drone strike, against a U.S. citizen on U.S. soil, and without trial.”http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/03/obama-admin-says-it-can-use-lethal-force-against-americans-us-soil IN PAKISTAN ALONE Total US strikes: 364 Obama strikes: 312 Total reported killed: 2,534-3,573 Civilians reported killed: 411-884 Children reported killed: 168-197 Total reported injured: 1,172-1,463 http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/category/projects/drones/ Title: Re: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: Gaspar on March 07, 2013, 01:45:54 pm And now I give you the famous Holder back-paddle we've come to love and cherish.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BExpU2dCYAA2vbD.jpg:large) (https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRFjd_f92PTrBtwr8D5j12jbGuEVbQbY14CtFzW3QnISTKrV0i4) Title: Re: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: patric on August 02, 2014, 10:11:51 am “We tortured some folks,” Obama said during a White House news conference Friday. “When we engaged in some of these enhanced interrogation techniques, techniques that I believe and I think any fair-minded person would believe were torture, we crossed a line. And that needs to be understood and accepted.”
http://www.politico.com/story/2014/08/john-brennan-torture-cia-109654.html Now that that's settled, are we going to address the torture and death of a suspect after the OKC Bombing? http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/07/trentadue-fbi-oklahoma-city-bombing-evidence Title: Re: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: dbacksfan 2.0 on August 02, 2014, 11:31:21 am “We tortured some folks,” Obama said during a White House news conference Friday. “When we engaged in some of these enhanced interrogation techniques, techniques that I believe and I think any fair-minded person would believe were torture, we crossed a line. And that needs to be understood and accepted.” http://www.politico.com/story/2014/08/john-brennan-torture-cia-109654.html Now that that's settled, are we going to address the torture and death of a suspect after the OKC Bombing? http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/07/trentadue-fbi-oklahoma-city-bombing-evidence You left out the two most important points from yesterdays presser, "So, it's not official until Monday, but is anybody here going to wish me Happy Birthday?" Quote THE PRESIDENT: I thought that you guys were going to ask me how I was going to spend my birthday. What happened to the happy birthday thing? Quote Keep in mind that Ebola is not something that is easily transmitted. That’s why, generally, outbreaks dissipate. But the key is identifying, quarantining, isolating those who contract it and making sure that practices are in place that avoid transmission. And it can be done, but it’s got to be done in an organized, systematic way, and that means that we’re going to have to help these countries accomplish that. All right? Okay. Q Happy Birthday, Mr. President. THE PRESIDENT: There you go, April. (Laughter.) That’s what I was talking about -- somebody finally wished me happy birthday -- although it isn’t until Monday, you’re right. Thank you so much. http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/08/01/press-conference-president (http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/08/01/press-conference-president) Title: Re: Let's Go Waterboarding!!! Post by: guido911 on August 02, 2014, 01:18:25 pm Two of Obama's "go to" memes. Blame Bush. And let's talk a bit about "me me me me me me me me....."
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