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Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: RecycleMichael on December 14, 2007, 02:56:23 am http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A18628
DECEMBER 12, 2007 Who Will Feed Our People? Someone. Anyone. Because north Tulsa's councilors are too busy hunting for a dragon to slay BY BRIAN ERVIN The vacant building at Pine St. and Peoria Ave. is a fitting symbol of the general disregard city leaders and citizens historically have for the community of north Tulsa and its people. At least, that's how Councilors Roscoe Turner and Jack Henderson see it, whose respective districts straddle the site. It used to be an Albertson's grocery store, until the chain closed shop in June, turning north Tulsa into an almost total "food desert," with no major grocery stores in sight for miles (see "Starving in the Desert" in last week's UTW at www.urbantulsa.com for more details). "It symbolizes what some of the citizens living in the community are feeling, how upset they are," said Henderson, whose District 1 lies west of the former Albertson's store. That symbolism made the site a fitting rallying point a few months ago for what Turner called north Tulsa's "rise against the tyranny of City Hall." His District 3 stretches eastward from the abandoned food store. Ostensibly, the rally/press conference on the morning of Saturday, Sept. 8 was to protest Mayor Kathy Taylor's hiring former Police Chief Ron Palmer to once again fill the post as the city's top cop, as well as to denounce the proposed county tax increase for river development projects. Days earlier, Henderson dramatically stood up and stormed out of the Mayor's press conference when she announced Palmer's name as the new chief. "He was chief when there was strife in the police department with a lot of the black officers, and the north Tulsa community is very upset with the choice-- they had a lot of problems with the police when he was chief," Turner told UTW at the time. The councilor said he chose the Albertson's husk as the location for the rally "because this is one thing the north community has been complaining about, about the treatment they've been getting from City Hall." "All we've been getting out of City Hall are broken promises," he said during the rally. "We're trying to get this grocery store in north Tulsa, but then we get this slap in our faces from the Mayor. They've obviously got other priorities than getting a grocery store in here," said Henderson. "I think it's probably one of the biggest concerns we have," he added. "It's imperative," concurred Turner. What was apparently even more imperative, though, was the opportunity afforded by the empty store to complain about north Tulsa's plight and to point their fingers at other city leaders for the community's problems. While the North Tulsa Duo were protesting before constituents and TV news cameras about the Mayor and other city leaders "slapping them in the face" while they were down and in urgent need of a place to buy food, some of those very city leaders were busy trying to get north Tulsa a new grocery store. That's only after they tried and failed to do it in a way that would have enabled Turner and Henderson to take all, if not most of the credit for the development, though. Several weeks ago, it became known that two different groups are considering the old Albertson's building as a location for a new grocery store. One of those prospective grocers is Daryl Mitchell of the St. Louis-based Mitchell's Enterprises. Mitchell's family owns and operates two grocery stores in St. Louis, which have been in business for 40 years, and another is scheduled to open next year. All three locations are in low-income, minority areas of St. Louis. Upon learning that it was Councilor Rick Westcott of southwest Tulsa's 2nd District who hosted Mitchell's visit to Tulsa and showed him the old Albertson's store, just out of curiosity, UTW asked both him and Turner why he would take such a responsibility upon himself rather than Turner or Henderson. "The Mayor and Westcott left us out of the loop altogether," answered Turner. That's not how Westcott tells it, though. Rather, as he recounts, he did everything he could to include Turner and Henderson in that particular loop. Soon after Albertson's left in June, Westcott learned that one of the partners in his law firm knew a successful grocer in St. Louis--the aforementioned Daryl Mitchell. So, he asked for his contact information. "He was and is extremely well-qualified in the grocery business, and he's been successful in neighborhoods like that for decades," the councilor said. "I'm a city councilor for District 2, but I'm also a city councilor for the city of Tulsa. I knew they had a problem in north Tulsa, and I happened to have a possible solution," Westcott recounted. However, he added, "I recognized that it was more properly Jack and Roscoe's concern, so I gave them the contact information for Mr. Mitchell." Westcott said he gave Henderson and Turner the information in person some time in the first half of August. "After a few weeks, Mr. Mitchell said he hadn't been contacted by either of them," he continued. "I don't really know what Councilors Turner and Henderson have done or not done, or what conversations they've had with people over the past few months," the councilor said. But, just to cover all of north Tulsa's bases, Westcott then gave Mitchell's information to Don Himelfarb, the Mayor's director of economic development. "He was extremely excited," Westcott recalled. "As I was leaving his office, I heard him call and begin a conversation with Mr. Mitchell," he added. That's the same story Himelfarb told. When asked how he got into contact with Mitchell, he said, "I got that information from Rick Westcott, and as soon as he gave me the number, I called." Turner, though, denies that he knew anything about Mitchell's group prior to the Oct. 9 river tax election. "After we defeated the river tax thing, a partner in Westcott's firm contacted me about Mitchell," the councilor said, referring to Lee Levinson of Levinson and Bodenhamer law firm. "I told him, 'Here's what we need to do: write a letter to Daryl Mitchell and carbon copy it to me and to Don Himelfarb,'" Turner recounted. After that conversation with Levinson about the fate of his district's nutritional fortunes, the councilor said he and Henderson were excluded from the discussion until Mitchell's visit in mid-October, at which point Mitchell and Westcott met with Henderson, Turner, Himelfarb and other city leaders about his potentially bringing a grocery store to the beleaguered community. When asked about Westcott's version of events, Turner immediately responded, "Westcott is lying. They left us out of the loop altogether." Why would he lie, or leave you out of the loop? "Well, that's a really good question," he answered. "I haven't had the number since August," said Henderson. "We first met Mitchell in October when he came down," he added. Any chance he gave you the number and you just forgot about it? "No," answered Turner. "I can unequivocally tell you, he had no contact with me about it," said Henderson. "We have been trying to find people to get a grocery store in here. For us to sit on it all that time--that would not make sense to me," Henderson added. So, Westcott was asked, Any chance you're remembering it wrong, and didn't give them the information until mid-October? "Absolutely not. I went to them and gave them the information. There's no reason I would keep them out of the loop," Westcott answered. As evidence, the councilor provided UTW a copy of a fax he sent to Daryl Mitchell, dated August 22, which included Himelfarb and Turner's contact information. Also, Westcott provided a copy of a letter faxed to his law office by Mitchell, which was addressed to Turner and Himelfarb. "Mr. Lee Levinson of Tulsa, Oklahoma contacted our company... concerning a possible business opportunity in the greater Tulsa area. We are a family owned and operated enterprise and have been in business for 60 years. We are also one of the oldest African-American businesses in the greater St. Louis area," the letter read. "Please let us know, at your earliest convenience, when we can travel to Tulsa to discuss what we consider to be a very exciting business opportunity for our company and the city of Tulsa," the document also read. The letter was dated Wednesday, August 29. Westcott said he took copies of the letter to City Hall the next day when he was there for the weekly City Council meeting, and gave copies to Himelfarb and to Turner. "I either gave it to Roscoe in person or I put it on his desk," he said. To confirm his version of events, Turner also provided a copy of some correspondence from Himelfarb to Mitchell, which had been carbon-copied to him, presumably implying that it was a result of the direction he gave to Levinson. It was also copied to the Mayor, Westcott, the city's Director of Real Estate Management Leon Davis and Dwain Midget of the Mayor's office. It reads, "Thanks for taking my call. Enclosed is a packet of information regarding the former Albertson's location. After you have reviewed this overview, call me and let's schedule an onsite meeting. We are excited about your interest and want to explore how we can assist you with a new location in Tulsa." However, it wasn't dated any time after the Oct. 9 river tax election. The letter was dated Friday, August 31--about a week before Turner and Henderson would use the vacated grocery store as a symbol of north Tulsa's victimization at the hands of a "tyrannical" City Hall that "breaks its promises" and "slaps north Tulsa in the face" by not making it's grocery deficiency its top priority. For whatever reason, Turner and Henderson declined to contact Mitchell when they had the opportunity in August. They said, though, beginning in October, they've been in contact with another prospective group, led by Marcus Howard. The five principals in the group are alumni of Booker T. Washington High School, and plan to put a store called "Freedom Mart" at the old Albertson's site. Turner said he and Henderson have been working with the group trying to get funding for the project "from a private source" and, he said, "there's a government grant out there somewhere for this." Westcott said Mitchell also "has a very strong desire" to open a store at the site, and wants to "buy the building outright." The councilor said the grocer was considering setting up three separate businesses on the premises: a grocery store, a restaurant and a liquor store, and was in the process of reviewing applicable zoning and liquor laws for that purpose. "The ball's really in their court," said Himelfarb of the two prospective grocers. "We've supplied both groups with information. We're not taking a position, favoring one or the other. We're just giving them all the information they need and ask for. The only thing I care about is getting a grocery store in north Tulsa. I don't care who it is," he added. Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: rhymnrzn on December 14, 2007, 04:19:11 am hmmmm liquor store in the local freedom mart, i have my doubts that is needed. thinly veiled promotions, compared to what is not promoted, shows the consciences.
here in dayton, ohio, there's a similar scheme unfolding, where the kroger's store in the pre-dominantly black west side has decided to forsake operation based on the lack of profits. i cannot help but think this is a bunch of false dealing from the beginning: is it fit to raise up disproportionate shopping facilities, making sterile and econimically meanacing expectations from the poor side of town? Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: inteller on December 14, 2007, 06:54:30 am quote: ding ding ding! We have a winner! Albertsons was probably GLAD to close that store. It probably saved them money. Why has no one located there yet when all the numbers look good on paper? because of the thugs that come in and steal. No businessowner in their right mind would locate there. Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: guido911 on December 14, 2007, 07:12:42 am Good article. I wrote on this forum a few months back about how it seemed Turner was more concerned about general Tulsa issues rather than crime.
http://www.tulsanow.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7826&SearchTerms=turner I am glad someone else feels my pain. Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: rhymnrzn on December 14, 2007, 07:18:51 am quote: yeah not soley for the cause of defying you city fathers and philanthropists Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: cannon_fodder on December 14, 2007, 10:05:39 am The rumor (friend talked to an Ex-manager of the store - so at my level just a rumor) I heard was that the store had theft issues. Both on the retail level and in the employee ranks. As well as staffing issues. But Albertsons did not want to close just the North Store because of the PR involved.
I give some credence to the rumor because the numbers are there to support a couple of large grocery stores in North Tulsa. Stupid that a small group of thugs and thieves keep an entire section my our community inconvenienced. It is disappointing to learn that the "leaders" of the North Side seem to be more interesting in either taking credit or benefiting financially from any deal that happens at that location. Is there any real leader from North Tulsa that garners any respect? Perhaps I am just ignorant, but it seems the councilors are a joke and no one else has stepped up. I'm beginning to doubt that I will ever see actual progress on the North Side. Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: inteller on December 14, 2007, 10:45:40 am quote: well, I have no sympathy. Until the community collectively steps up and boots those thugs out of town they will continue to be held hostage by them. This is not Afghanistan and the Taliban....these are just some wannabe gangbanger hoods that you all need to inflict some vigilante justice on. i guess you never heard what the community did to one of the graffiti "artists" we caught in south tulsa. in short, he won't be spray painting for a long time. Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: tim huntzinger on December 14, 2007, 11:14:12 am Shennanigans on the story. What a crock, from the writing to the initial framing by RM to the responses here.
1. Most stories have an introductory paragraph that summarizes the issue and a final one that reiterates the facts. The layout of the facts is too confusing for someone of my limited intellect. 2. Why not contact Mitchell for his version? Further, if Mitchell saw this as a profitable enterprise instead of some form of charity, why was he not contacting the 'Duo' directly? 3. Interesting, the phoney conservative Holy Grail of TIFF was not mentioned. 4. How is this embarassing to the 'Duo?' It shames all involved; Westcott, 'I dunno, I guess I may have put something on his desk.' 5. Why is this not in the OP/ED like everything else in (sub)Urbane Tulsa? What a crock. What a joke. Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: RecycleMichael on December 14, 2007, 11:36:06 am Thank you Mr. writing expert.
I thought it was an interesting story, especially because Urban Tulsa has been very kind to Roscoe in previous issues. This story quotes Roscoe and Jack, then immediately says their words were false. How should I have framed the thread...UT calls Roscoe and Jack liars? Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: tim huntzinger on December 14, 2007, 01:00:53 pm You assumed that UT was correct, why? You chose to automatically go with UT's story and to use that as an opportunity to smear the 'Duo.' Why?
I cannot help it if the story is so convoluted that the writer has a problem conveying it, but it reads like a high-school essay and leaves more questions than it answers. So who has kin who works with Taylor? Which councilors of the same party have made her tenure difficult? Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: RecycleMichael on December 14, 2007, 03:01:29 pm You read too much into the words. Stop sharing that conspiracy pipe with friendly bear and altruismsuffers.
First, I didn't post the story because of my "kin" working for the Mayor. My wife left city hall about a year ago, if that was your reference. Secondly, Jack Henderson was one of Mayor Taylor's greatest allies during her first election and probably is one of the reasons why she carried north Tulsa and won a close city-wide election. If I was trying to attack for political reasons, I would not have included him. I often disagree with Roscoe Turner, but he has always been good to me personally and I have had some good conversations with him over the years. Thirdly, I post stories on this forum from the Tulsa World, KOTV, KTUL and Urban Tulsa all the time. I know it is probably breaking some taboo, but I start threads with other media coverage constantly just to begin conversations. Talking about what some media is talking about on a different media seems odd, but it leads to better community discussion sometimes. Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: tim huntzinger on December 14, 2007, 03:09:05 pm Oh. OK.
Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: tim huntzinger on December 14, 2007, 03:27:14 pm You still declared victory for (sub)Urbane when it was anything but clear that they had succeeded in 'embarassing' the 'Duo,' who, apparently, are doing nothing NOTHING I tell you while Westcott is tirelessly working for North Tulsans.
Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: RecycleMichael on December 14, 2007, 05:12:40 pm I have had things written about me that were embarassing before. I think having me quoted then having others quoted saying something completely else is embarassing.
I also like this reporter for Urban Tulsa. I have never met him, but I have a real respect for print reporters, probably because my mother, my wife and my uncle were all reporters for local papers. This guy writes good stuff and covers stories no one else is even watching. He has written 124 stories for Urban Tulsa and covered the problem of grocery store "deserts" a few issues before... http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A18274 He also wrote a very nice piece about Roscoe just eight weeks ago... http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A18274 The ability to cover three different sides of an issue or an elected official is good journalism. I really dreaded and disagreed with some of his past writing, like the HB 1804 issue, the city hall move, the fairgrounds annexation, etc. but appreciate his body of work as a whole. Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: tim huntzinger on December 14, 2007, 06:24:43 pm 'Nice piece?' said Tim. 'There are a lot of words, there.' said Tim. 'I think that puff interviews could be written better.' said Tim. Tim said, 'Real journalists do not use contractions.'
Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: deinstein on December 16, 2007, 12:26:26 am Albertsons was too expensive for that area. A Drug Warehouse or Food Lion is much more logical for both the owners and residents of the area.
Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: tim huntzinger on December 16, 2007, 09:22:29 am Huh? Nothing to do with it. Albertson's closed down all its stores in the area.
What a crock of poop. What a sham. What a joke the 'article' is. Who turned on subUrban Tulsa to the story? Hmmm. Who would that would have been? Was there a press release? Announcement of Mighty Mitchell's Arrival? Hmmmmmm. This reeks of the same old back-room whisper bullcrap that divides Tulsans, the same sophmoric 'gotcha' politics that come from that whole crowd. Jerks. Westcott's 'I dunno, I guess I said something or laid a paper somewhere or deeyuuuhhhhhh . . .' is pathetic. He was trying to show due dilligence, just carrying water for his firm, not making an honest effort at solving the problem. As is, he only demonstrated a profound lack of awareness of how to involve himself as an outsider in North Tulsans' affairs. I hope 'The Duo' sue for defamation or something to get that POS joke of a 'paper' shut down. Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: Double A on December 16, 2007, 12:38:27 pm quote: I think you just nailed it. Wescott rode Medlock's coattails into office by masquerading as a reformer, yet has been a consistent conformer and sellout for the status quo. If Wescott cares so much about getting this store in North Tulsa why did he run to UTW to put out a political propaganda piece like this? Typically when a store or business considers moving to Tulsa they require city officials to sign non-disclosure forms while in negotiations which, I believe, was the case with Tulsa Hills. The fact that this has played out so publicly makes me wonder whether the Wescott connection is a serious deal or just political propagandizing. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/mistymountainhop/westcott_flash.jpg) Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: tim huntzinger on December 16, 2007, 03:06:07 pm Well, AA, let their minds be bombed! Consider this: 'The Duo' should have the Council investigate Westpock for conflict of interest. It is entirely unclear whether The Holy Mitchell was here on behalf of Westpock the Councilor or as Westpock's law firm's client.
Why, unless there is ample documentation to prove otherwise, I should think Westpock was using his role as a councilor to procure bidness for his loyyah friends . . . Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: deinstein on December 16, 2007, 04:31:24 pm quote: And it seems like most of them were replaced rather quickly with something else. Not that one! I wonder why...oh, that's right, the revenue it lacked before, because Albertsons was too expensive compared to places like Drug Warehouse. I've had discussions with actual people (people!) that lived in the area and they all make the same comment. It's not rocket science, Timmy. Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: RecycleMichael on December 16, 2007, 04:42:29 pm I used to live pretty close to that store.
I saw some old friends right after the store closed and they were whining like crazy. I asked them where they shopped and they said they only went there for quick shopping. They all went to Wal-Mart on Memorial or the Warehouse Market on 3rd and Lewis for the big shopping trips. I agree that the Albertson's high prices were clearly a factor in that store failing. Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: tim huntzinger on December 17, 2007, 07:39:06 am I agree that socioeconomics play a major role in whether stores can make money.
Further, I agree that the suburban tulsa article was a joke. Brought to us by the same people who posit Susan Neal as Mayoral material and John Sullivan as Senate fodder. Hmmm. So was Councilor Reck acting on behalf of his firm or in his capacity as a Councilor? Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: cannon_fodder on December 17, 2007, 09:02:31 am Tim, did you do any investigation like they did in the article? Did you talk to these people? Do you have documents in hand?
Or are you just formulating an uneducated opinion and trying to pass it off as fact? The article was pretty convincing. If you think it is all BS then get those counselors an attorney and sue for slander. Because pretending to have documents and fake itnerviews would certainly be a "reckless disregard for the truth" and would open the UTW up to serious liability even from a public figure. Otherwise, if you only have your opinion and bias against this particular source - just say that and move on. Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: RecycleMichael on December 17, 2007, 09:11:43 am Gee Tim. Why would you and doubleA make these arguments against Councilor Westcott? What has he done to you that make you so cynical?
You guys imply that he ran to Urban Tulsa and is only doing this for profit for his law firm. Did you ever think he might be trying to act like a community leader and help all of Tulsa? I have been very impressed by Councilor Westcott. He has been working on getting passenger train service to return to Tulsa, something else that will affect more than just his council district residents. Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: tim huntzinger on December 17, 2007, 11:13:30 am It is all perception, RM sez 'The Duo' were embarassed, I feel Reck looks like he half-assed threw it - Mithcell's interest - out there during a time when 'The Duo' had a lot on their plate. Reck does not even remember how or when he talked with 'The Duo.' IMHO, it makes him look bad: what kind of loser is not able to put together a friggin' afternoon drive with one of his firms' clients/friends?
Look, I cannot help it if a whisper turns into a half-baked 'investigation' that leaves more questions than it answers. I think asking whether Reck was acting on behalf of his firm or in his position as a Councilor is more than fair. In fact, as I have stated, I wonder about a conflict of interest in the matter. I cannot help it if there is no firewall between op-ed and news at that rag, and that they are spoonfed rumours by a bunch of backstabbing jerks. Ervin is the one accusing them of political grandstanding, and using a poor example to do so. Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: rwarn17588 on December 17, 2007, 02:55:24 pm Oh, please, Tim. Get a grip.
I thought it was a good article. It laid out some interesting facts, and the facts happened to bust the chops of self-important politicians. It confirmed what I've suspected -- that Roscoe and Henderson try to do some good, but also do a lot of posing, too. Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: tim huntzinger on December 17, 2007, 03:06:25 pm Whatever. Schlepping some half-true whispers off as 'news' is hardly professional. How did suburban tulsa 'learn' of the visit? Did Westcoot send an email, say something, or leave a package somewhere? Kinda important, and heck he does not even know when or how he communicated the interest. Is Westcott recusing his firm from representing his partner's friend? Putting out an op-ed as investigation is shameful.
Whaaaaaaa! Someone busted UTW's chops! Call the waaaaambulance! How unfair! Waaaa! Waaaa! Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: TulsaSooner on December 17, 2007, 06:50:57 pm It's only fair, after all, they've been embarrassing Tulsa for years.
[;)] Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: Double A on December 17, 2007, 11:54:12 pm quote: How can you claim this faith based fictionalized tabloid smear is fact based journalism? Nevermind, I just remembered you're a Lortonite. Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: cannon_fodder on December 18, 2007, 08:20:05 am As I stated above:
the UTW did interviews with all parties involved and presented their side. They obtained documents and look at records. What has your investigation consisted of? I reserve judgment on the journalistic integrity of the UTW, but seriously - they have at least looked into this and presented some evidence. You just keep jumping up and down screaming BS! That is not very convincing. Go call these people, find out how the documents were forged, why they would bother to do so, and tell us what really happened. Otherwise, your just denying a researched news story because you do not like what they found. And if you do the research and find out its made up, you get the added bennefit of discrediting forever a paper you hate AND opening them up to severe legal liability. So which is it? Did you do research or have insider info - or are you just jumping up and down shouting> Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: tim huntzinger on December 18, 2007, 10:25:24 am Look, I am no engrish major or journalist, but it does not take one for the article to fail the sniff test for shennanigans. I did not write the op-ed portraying The Duo as race-baiting do nothings engaged in political grandstanding while North Tulsans starve.
Consider the line 'presumably implying that it was a result of the direction he gave to Levinson.' Who presumed that? The author. Unless Turner said that, why presume the implication? And why no quotes from Westcott, hmmmm? Who was the source for this scandalous revelation? Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: rwarn17588 on December 18, 2007, 11:50:21 am In other words: "I don't like the article, so it can't be true."
You've provided no evidence that it's inaccurate, just assumptions that it is. If it's inaccurate, put up or shut up. Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: Double A on December 18, 2007, 12:03:38 pm quote: There's no evidence to back up anything in this article. Nothing in this article can be proved, it's all hearsay. I know that passes for fact in the Tulsa Whirled, but not in the real world. I guess it all comes down to who you trust. Tulsa already knows who to trust: (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/mistymountainhop/DRILLER_small.jpg) Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: tim huntzinger on December 18, 2007, 12:09:19 pm Kind of hard to dispute an op-ed is what I am finding. I think the onus is on suburban tulsa weakly to demonstrate that the Duo are the foot-dragging loudmouths trying to grandstand while their folk are starving. Their op-ed does not do that. They make the accusations and do not adequately back them up.
Soooo Mitchell will not open his store if he is not held hands with by The Duo? Do they need to kiss his ring, too? Is Westcott's firm recusing itself from any business related to this deal? Was Westcott acting on behalf of his firm or as a Councilor? Why no quotes from Westcott? Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: cannon_fodder on December 18, 2007, 12:30:03 pm Please, for the love of god... tell us who you interviewed? Who gave you documents to back up their story?
[edit rant out] Seriously, as much as you hate the author, the article, the publication and the outcome... they put something on the table. You have not. I could care less about Turner, Wescott, or whomever else. But you have made no case. You are actually convincing me to support the UTW in this. If supporters of these guys can fund nothing to back them up, I'll assume there is nothing. Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: tim huntzinger on December 18, 2007, 01:15:22 pm This IS getting weary. Sigghhhh.
UTW puts out a lame ad hominem attack on two duly elected Councilors. Somehow in that OP-ED we are somehow supposed to 'get' that the snarkily coined Duo are failing their constituents by missing a meeting with a client/friend of Westcott's law firm. If suburban tulsa weakly wants to cause disunity and division among our elected leaders, they are free to do so. Just because they want to make a case that the 'Duo' are do-nothing race-baiters without backing it up, well, how is that my responsibility to understand? What is the controversy, anyway? That Westcott felt slighted because he hosted a meeting with a friend/client of his law firm's partner and did not get props? For the love of Pete, CF . . . Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: waterboy on December 18, 2007, 03:43:58 pm Its not just CF. He is making more sense than you. First off, unless you're a journalist or have tremendous insight of the trade, you are doing no more or less than ranting over a story you don't like and have less info on than they do. Repeatedly asked for your sources and provided none.
Then you ignore that this is not a legal case where they have to prove guilt or innocence. They simply report on a story. Who, What, Why, When and Where using their own research. You don't like that because it skewers your guys. Take a fresh look at these guys or get the Eagle to do a piece from your perspective. Lastly consider this. If your area had no grocery stores, would you want your councilor to do anything less than actively, fervently, doggedly and professionally use any source and any persuasive ability to get you one? They didn't. If the picture portrayed is not factually perfect it appears that much is true. They played politics and got burned. Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: tim huntzinger on December 18, 2007, 04:19:24 pm What have I asserted other than the story is full of missing pieces and (IMHO) hard to follow? What sources do I need to express an opinion? My source is the article: Turner et al met with Mitchell, so what is Westcott-not-Westcott whining about? DUHHHHH my opinion is a rant, what is new?
suburban tulsa weakly declares them guilty, not me. And they do not make their case. STW are the ones taking the broadsides at the Duo after a tip from . . . who? Who gave the tip, H2O, boy? Who? Why? The only one that can answer that is the essayist, and that was left out. How did the Duo get burned? They met with Mitchell, the City is involved, where is the problem? Turner sez they were left out of the loop, and it looks like that is true to some degree; the only problem is Westcott feels slighted, poor baby. HEY, 'UTW' FANS: NICE IGNORING THE FACT THAT THE RAGAZINE ACTUALLY BLAMES 'THE DUO' FOR AN EMPTY STORE. You all want to blame them for high crime, too? Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: cannon_fodder on December 18, 2007, 04:59:24 pm Thank you Tim. Finally you admit that it is just your opinion.
Your opinion is not enough to sway the interviews, sources, and documentation the UTW was able to put together. Until someone is able to do so, I will buy into their version of events. Please, I am not on a witch hunt. I have nothing against Turner or anyone else on a personal level, I don't even know them. But when a report comes out about a public servant scuttling development and then complaining about the lack thereof, and seemingly doing so for personal gain... that is an issue of concern. If that is not what happened and this accusation is unfair, I would be interested in learning that. It would cast a long shadow on the "investigative" reporting of the UTW in the future. But until such a time I am forced to side with the party who did some research and is not merely stating an opinion. Do you understand where I am coming from? Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: tim huntzinger on December 18, 2007, 05:04:17 pm UTW asserts that the store is empty because of political grandstanding because of 'The Duo' (hunting dragons, I believe). I see no evidence to back THAT up, do you?
Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: waterboy on December 18, 2007, 08:42:32 pm It is a rag, Tim. BTW, one that I abhor. Nonetheless, a source of journalism no less interesting or reliable than the Drudge report. Why do you feel it necessary that they expose who tipped them off to the story when most newspapers fight to keep sources secret lest they dry up? Assume it was Westcott if you will. Why would that matter if there is any truth to the allegations. Once again we are not in court. All Roscoe had to do was pick up a phone immediately and call the St.Louis grocer unless....he had someone else he preferred in the wings.
Roscoe denies the story just like Roger Clemens denial of steroid use. Well, anything can be denied till you're under oath and have to think of the consequences. Too Bad. Now that the story broke in the UT (Utterly Tastless), I suppose the World won't touch it. Don't think these two Northside Councilors were not burned by the fire even if it was just a trash fire. Their constituents may have been distracted by the power outages, but the story will not go unnoticed. Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: Double A on December 18, 2007, 09:33:30 pm quote: If there was a shred of truth to this sensationalized soap opera, I have a hard time believing the Whirled wouldn't be all over it, due to their longstanding vendetta against Turner and Henderson. I think the fact the Whirled hasn't picked it up only reinforces what Tim's been saying. I've heard Keith(UTW publisher) has a nasty habit of "editing". I wonder if that might be the case(Even Bates, has complained about this in his columns) because this doesn't seem like Ervin's normal style of writing to me. Bates, I am calling you out. What's the deal with this story? Spill it. Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: tim huntzinger on December 19, 2007, 06:46:55 am And why he is on the line, ask him why that POS dragazine pretending to be conservative feels it is an elected official's duty to find tenants for an empty store. What happened to the free market and all that? BS.
Not only are they assuming that it is Big Bad Gubmint's job to supply a grocery store, they take the extra step and BLAME 'The Duo' for the lack of a grocery store. What a crock. What a joke. What a sham and a charade. Go pitch yer gubmint funded schools and OPAC BS somewhere else you morons. H20, I frankly find it hard to tell what Roscoe was replying to when he said he had been left out of the loop. He acknowledges that Westcott gave him information, so why does he say he had been left out? If a business lead comes to the City, whose primary responsibility is it to chase down: $150K+ salaried Himelfarb or an $18K Councilor? Take a pick, this is another example of how frigging dysfunctional 'Tulsa' is. UTW decided to focus on 'The Duo.' Why? Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: waterboy on December 19, 2007, 09:03:28 am The World will allow a reasonable period of time to elapse before reporting on the story, if indeed it is a real story. Do not underestimate the competitiveness and fierce defense of what the World sees as "their market". UT, TulsaNow and other more in touch venues are mere R&D type operations for them. Sort of volunteer news gatherers. They are arrogant but no more so than any media. UT will never be sourced if it is a story.
Step back and look at the process. Roscoe and Turner have used their oppressed north side leader status to needle the administration and even help thwart development plans. They played their political roles with confidence because frankly, they had little to lose since no other leaders have emerged from their base. Now, it appears they overplayed and the press loves to build up the underdog into icons, then destroy them. Its a balancing act that keeps people involved in their newspaper. They couch that into more palatable terms, "Comfort the afflicted...Afflict the comfortable", whatever. UT is as conservative as they can afford to be. A Catholic publisher pushing for public schools? Not likely. Ever see a pro-life op-ed piece in those pages? A weekly whose main feature columnist is Bates? Get real. In Tulsa terms they are moderate Republican and are racked with hypocrisy sinced they promote the very sins that erode the community fabric, alcoholism and pornography. You are overreacting I think. But maybe I am too with that last line.[;)] edit: As far as whose responsibility to fill that grocery store? All of them, and their salary for doing so is irrelevant. Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: Chicken Little on December 19, 2007, 09:56:21 am quote:And calling your colleauges liars and tyrants when they appear to be working on the problem is not helpful. Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: Double A on December 19, 2007, 10:44:27 am quote: The fact of the matter is Kathy "proactive" Taylor and the EDC were so busy schlepping the One Tech lemon that they were caught with their pants down when Albertons folded. Kathy Taylor ran as a business savy CEO who would be proactive as Mayor. If that was really the case she would have been well aware of the stores looming collapse and would have already had a plan in place to deal with the Albertson's departure as the anchor for this TIF district. Instead of being proactive, once again the Mayor had to react to a situation which could have been avoided if she only had been concentrating on real priorities of the city, instead of frivolous flights of fancy like One Tech or the River Tax. Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: Chicken Little on December 19, 2007, 11:27:33 am quote:I don't know if anybody, employees included, had much more than a month's notice on the closing. Do you have information or are you just speculating? Regardless, I don't think it is relevent to the point I was making. How is name-calling going to make the situation better, 2A? If everybody was simply ignoring this problem, then sure, make some noise. But it appears that some people were actually trying to do something, and that at some point they were reaching out for support from Turner and Henderson. And for that, Wescott gets called a liar? That just seems like bad form; maybe it was just a slip, but it ain't right. My point is actually broader than that, though. Politicking is not a substitute for action. And if you want to see where all that "bad blood" and nastiness can lead, then look at our country's gridlocked congress. There's gotta be some balance. You gotta choose your battles, being a full-time a-hole doesn't get a darn thing done. There may be more to the story than we know. That second group may be a better choice. Nevertheless, a good backup plan doesn't hurt. Just my two bits on the matter. Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: waterboy on December 19, 2007, 03:09:37 pm Agreed CL. But Albertson's had been in some turmoil for several years. So no one got caught with their pants down. They were hoping for the best outcome for these stores in an industry that operates on small margins and gets butt kicked by WalMart routinely. The Pine store was a good opportunity that ultimately didn't work for them. If that's the Mayor's fault then so was the power outage.
AA please don't waste your energies calling names and pointing fingers. This is a team effort you know. I am curious as to what you think an acceptable Democratic response would have been and who would have made it? Who measures up to your standards? Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: Double A on December 19, 2007, 04:43:17 pm quote: The buck should stop with the Mayor and the EDC. They are the ones who were so preoccupied with the One Tech and the River tax, that they neglected this TIF and were totally caught off guard by the Albertsons collapse. She's the one who ran as a proactive business wiz, her reactive handling of this situation shatters that myth. Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: waterboy on December 19, 2007, 07:26:50 pm quote: With accountability goes responsibility, so by your reckoning the councilors should not even be involved. What do we even need them for if she has such individual awesome accountability? No, development and its success or failure is a village operation. The best she can do is provide leadership, focus and energy. She has done that. You don't like her direction but that doesn't mean she isn't working hard at providing it. And believe me now and hear me later...anyone who followed Albertson's stock and that category in particular was not surprised by those store closings. What is surprising to me is that no one is drawing parallels between what happened with that TIFF and what could happen with the one in Jenks or Tulsa Hills. It should give one pause. Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: guido911 on December 19, 2007, 08:00:40 pm quote: lol Title: Urban Tulsa embarrasses Roscoe and Jack Post by: tim huntzinger on December 20, 2007, 09:15:01 am Himelfarb is the coordinator, not the CZAR. I would think his job is to smooth out wrinkles, help navigate the system, find appropriate contacts for interested re-locators. To lay the blame for an empty frigging store at the feet of any one person or Duo is missing the point, IMHO.
As I remember, there were about ten kajillion other 'projects' that sapped energies, from streets to North Tulsa river projects to Drillers stadiums to any number of other stupid things. That this one lil' project got put on the backburner is par for the course for North Tulsans, IMHO. |