The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

The city spends a half-million dollars to streamline traffic tickets.  If traffic citations are the best source of revenue, is revenue collection the best job for our police?

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=071231_1_A17_ONWor65184



"It's a newer and faster way of passing out tickets," said Tony Cellino, court administrator for Tulsa Municipal Court.

E-citations are hand-held devices which scan a driver's license plate or tags for driving information.
The citations are stored in a computer system accessible by area police departments and the city of Tulsa Municipal Court system.

City officials said the new devices save time on issuing hand-written speeding and red light tickets.
Officials also said the devices may allow city parking inspectors to distribute more parking citations to vehicles at expired meters or incorrect zones, and for double parking.

The city of Tulsa will pay about $451,000 for 50 scanners, said Councilor John Eagleton.

The average traffic enforcement officer writes about 20 traffic citations daily, Eagleton
said.
"I've been told that e-citations will enable officers to write an additional 10 tickets a day," he said. "This will put officers out of the ticket-writing and back into the ticket-issuing business."
 

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=20080110_1_A1_spanc03342

Ain't politics great?

The mayor and a city councilor get into a pissin' contest, so the mayor essentially says 'I'll show you' and scraps the entire program.

And don't tell me she didn't know this program was progressing since at least five of her departments have been meeting to move this program forward.  Thanks for wasting everybody's time for the past several months.

It is not that simple. The idea came during an interim Police Chief, but was not budgeted for in this fiscal year. The new Police Chief did not list it as one of his top couple of priorities either.

All that happened was that the Purchasing Department sent out proposals for a project without identified funding and the Mayor stopped the bid process temporarily.

If the Police Chief wants this, if the council can identify funding and both make this a priority, it will still happen.

I think it is still a good idea. Writing faster tickets should mean more tickets and more revenue, albeit on the wallets of local citizens who drive recklessly.

I just love the fact that the city admits to having traffic officers whose sole purpose is to generate revenue.

(Of course they admitted that indirectly with the cruisers that have no outside markings or lights and run traffic.)

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Originally posted by TeeDub


I just love the fact that the city admits to having traffic officers whose sole purpose is to generate revenue.
(Of course they admitted that indirectly with the cruisers that have no outside markings or lights and run traffic.)

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Ive always felt that visibility of law enforcement was one of the the best deterrents to crime, but unmarked cruisers seem to be addressing some other  "priority".

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Originally posted by patric

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Originally posted by TeeDub


I just love the fact that the city admits to having traffic officers whose sole purpose is to generate revenue.
(Of course they admitted that indirectly with the cruisers that have no outside markings or lights and run traffic.)

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Ive always felt that visibility of law enforcement was one of the the best deterrents to crime, but unmarked cruisers seem to be addressing some other  "priority".

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My point exactly.   I can understand why detectives occasionally need to hide...   But unmarked traffic enforcement is strictly for revenue generation.

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Originally posted by TeeDub


I just love the fact that the city admits to having traffic officers whose sole purpose is to generate revenue.

(Of course they admitted that indirectly with the cruisers that have no outside markings or lights and run traffic.)

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Yes, and it's always wonderful to be pulled over by one of those on the open highway after you observe him make a u-turn about 1.5 miles ahead and make sure you are going exactly the speed limit, then come up on him driving parallel and at the same speed with some scared drunk driver going 10mph under the speed limit, only for him to assert that YOU were going 10mph OVER the speed limit and that his car is "pretty quick with the rear facing radar" all whilst your radar detector didn't go off and he didn't use laser because he was moving.

Not that I'm bitter.. (only a little: he didn't ticket me, it was 4am he was looking for drunks. I just don't appreciate liars.)

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Originally posted by RecycleMichael

It is not that simple. The idea came during an interim Police Chief, but was not budgeted for in this fiscal year. The new Police Chief did not list it as one of his top couple of priorities either.

All that happened was that the Purchasing Department sent out proposals for a project without identified funding and the Mayor stopped the bid process temporarily.

If the Police Chief wants this, if the council can identify funding and both make this a priority, it will still happen.

I think it is still a good idea. Writing faster tickets should mean more tickets and more revenue, albeit on the wallets of local citizens who drive recklessly.

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It is not that simple.

A Tulsa councilor made it a priority.

Police, Courts, Telecommunications, Legal and Finance have been meeting and discussing this project for a number of months.  Companies have been flying into Tulsa to show their products to these committee members.  For the mayor to all of a sudden say this project isn't on the radar is a total waste of everyone's time and gives the City a horrible reputation in the eyes of potential vendors.  If this program wasn't moving forward, she should have said so a long time ago.

The story doesn't say the project is completely dead, it says the bid process has been stopped and that there were questions about how it had gone this far without budget money.

It is $2.25 million and it isn't in the current budget, but with council action will be.

I was stunned by the facts used by the councilor to justify the expense. His numbers work out to the Tulsa Police writing not just the same number of traffic tickets they wrote last year, but an additional 90,000 tickets each year.

90,000 more tickets than last year...there are only about 270,000 people in Tulsa over the age of 21 in Tulsa...this means one out of every three of them are going to get an EXTRA ticket this year...a ticket that costs $120.

Not having e-tickets could be responsible for "15,000 traffic accidents per year".

Ohmygawd, do it for the children!!!

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=20080305_1_A7_hEagl82287

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Originally posted by RecycleMichael

The story doesn't say the project is completely dead, it says the bid process has been stopped and that there were questions about how it had gone this far without budget money.

It is $2.25 million and it isn't in the current budget, but with council action will be.

I was stunned by the facts used by the councilor to justify the expense. His numbers work out to the Tulsa Police writing not just the same number of traffic tickets they wrote last year, but an additional 90,000 tickets each year.

90,000 more tickets than last year...there are only about 270,000 people in Tulsa over the age of 21 in Tulsa...this means one out of every three of them are going to get an EXTRA ticket this year...a ticket that costs $120.

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From how crappy and rude most of the drivers are in this town 90,000 more tickets seems a bit low if you ask me.[8D]

Plus, who knows, some of them could be out of town drivers. Perhaps a bit of a way to also get some more revenue from those suburban commuters.[:D]

The shopping list for the eCWS (e-tickets) system:

    *  Intermec CN3 mobile computer
          o Windows Mobile 5
          o 128MB RAM / 128 MB ROM
          o Verizon EVDO Radio
          o Bluetooth
          o 802.11 b/g WiFi
          o GPS
    * 2 GB MiniSD Memory Card
    * Docks and accessories
    * Zebra RW420 Bluetooth Printer
(motorcycle configuration)
http://www.in.gov/judiciary/jtac/programs/ecws-sysreq.html

The $2,000 per-unit pricetag doesnt include airtime for the Verizon or at&t wireless connection, which (at least in one state) has been linked to excessive web surfing while on the job.

The tickets are laser printed on standard 8 1/2x11" paper, so any "savings" in paper will be wiped out by the expense of buying laser cartridges.

The city council was expected to approve $400,000 of this Thursday.

I'm gettin' about $9,000 per unit for 50 at $450,000.

$7,000 per unit price for support and services?

How many tickets per unit pay for this, assuming most of the ticket cost goes as is now?

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Originally posted by Wrinkle

I'm gettin' about $9,000 per unit for 50 at $450,000.

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Well isnt that interesting.
I wonder where the other $7,000 per unit is going?

   The department will soon be using a new high-tech program called Electronic Citation and Warning System (eCWS). The system requires the installation of laptops, stands and software on the laptops in each of the police cruisers used by the Charlestown Police Department.
    The cost of the system, according to Sgt. Terry Braswell, is approximately $2,000 per vehicle.

http://www.gbpnews.com/index.php?id=250:cpd-receives-grant-to-help-implement-electronic-citation-and-warning-system-in-vehicles&option=com_content&catid=36:leader&Itemid=46

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Originally posted by patric

quote:

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Originally posted by Wrinkle

I'm gettin' about $9,000 per unit for 50 at $450,000.

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Well isnt that interesting.
I wonder where the other $7,000 per unit is going?

   The department will soon be using a new high-tech program called Electronic Citation and Warning System (eCWS). The system requires the installation of laptops, stands and software on the laptops in each of the police cruisers used by the Charlestown Police Department.
    The cost of the system, according to Sgt. Terry Braswell, is approximately $2,000 per vehicle.

http://www.gbpnews.com/index.php?id=250:cpd-receives-grant-to-help-implement-electronic-citation-and-warning-system-in-vehicles&option=com_content&catid=36:leader&Itemid=46

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Windfall profits?

this is all talking about someone else's system though. I'll apply scrutiny when I see Tulsa open its bids....unless this is a sole source bid, in which case the scrutiny needs to start now.

I will say the implementation I am reading so far sounds like something 5 years old.  Winmo 5?  Give me a break!

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Originally posted by inteller

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Originally posted by patric

The shopping list for the eCWS (e-tickets) system:

    *  Intermec CN3 mobile computer
          o Windows Mobile 5
          o 128MB RAM / 128 MB ROM
          o Verizon EVDO Radio
          o Bluetooth
          o 802.11 b/g WiFi
          o GPS
    * 2 GB MiniSD Memory Card
    * Docks and accessories
    * Zebra RW420 Bluetooth Printer
(motorcycle configuration)
http://www.in.gov/judiciary/jtac/programs/ecws-sysreq.html

The $2,000 per-unit pricetag doesnt include airtime for the Verizon or at&t wireless connection, which (at least in one state) has been linked to excessive web surfing while on the job.

The tickets are laser printed on standard 8 1/2x11" paper, so any "savings" in paper will be wiped out by the expense of buying laser cartridges.

The city council was expected to approve $400,000 of this Thursday.

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oh don't worry, they won't be doing much web surfing on a WinMo 5 device.  it isn't like it is an iPhone or some ****.

But it does bother me greatly that they are going with verizon which has some of the most notoriously high data plans in the business.  Sprint is a little better.  However, this is another reason for muni wi-fi.  The devices should be capable of storing tickets outside of a hotspot range and then sync up when they are near a hotspot.  for the monthly cost of verizon data per unit, you could get into the muni wifi business pretty quick.

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Would these have to use the wi-fi option? Can't you just take them back to base and download the tickets?

quote:

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Originally posted by inteller


I will say the implementation I am reading so far sounds like something 5 years old.  Winmo 5?  Give me a break!

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Why exactly does this sort of application need WM6? Seems like more room for bugs to me.

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Originally posted by nathanm
Why exactly does this sort of application need WM6? Seems like more room for bugs to me.

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Maybe because Micro$oft doled out grant money to the software developers?
http://www.e-citation.net/?adwords&gclid=CJSr5bGPtpYCFSYMDQodpi3OLw

They will even give you the source code.
Im waiting to see it in the hands of some bright 14-year old with a grudge against his school.


Here's another "buy our product and watch the money roll in" -type ad that must have caught Councilor Eagleton's eye:

eCitations: your ticket to increased revenues and productivity.
http://www.motorolaradiosolutions.com/pdf/solutions/municipalities/AB-eCitation_v2.pdf

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Originally posted by nathanm

quote:

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Originally posted by inteller


I will say the implementation I am reading so far sounds like something 5 years old.  Winmo 5?  Give me a break!

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Why exactly does this sort of application need WM6? Seems like more room for bugs to me.

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no Winmo 6 would be an improvement..5 is clunky junk.

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Originally posted by inteller


no Winmo 6 would be an improvement..5 is clunky junk.

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Yes, but old, well tested clunky junk. Sort of like Pocket PC 2003. It works fine if it does what you need it to do. (as in, if you don't need a 1x card)

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Originally posted by nathanm

quote:

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Originally posted by inteller


no Winmo 6 would be an improvement..5 is clunky junk.

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Yes, but old, well tested clunky junk. Sort of like Pocket PC 2003. It works fine if it does what you need it to do. (as in, if you don't need a 1x card)

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as an owner of a device that came with winmo 5 and now has 6 on it, I can say without a doubt that 6 is much better than 5.

but back to the topic at hand, there is no reason they need expensive data plans.  either sync the phone via wifi or cradle it at the end of the shift and process the tickets through some batch program.  it is silly that they are going with verizon when ATT has better coverage in Tulsa.  verizon has only been in this market for a few years and has a skeleton patchwork of towers.

Another vendor brochure for a revenue-hungry city council to drool over:
http://www.groupmobile.com/docs/products/MC70.pdf

The picture of the guy being fingerprinted in his car with a mobile device reminds me a bit of the DNA scanners in GATTACA (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gattaca").  How far off can that be now?

quote:

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Originally posted by inteller

quote:

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Originally posted by nathanm

quote:

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Originally posted by inteller


no Winmo 6 would be an improvement..5 is clunky junk.

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Yes, but old, well tested clunky junk. Sort of like Pocket PC 2003. It works fine if it does what you need it to do. (as in, if you don't need a 1x card)

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as an owner of a device that came with winmo 5 and now has 6 on it, I can say without a doubt that 6 is much better than 5.

but back to the topic at hand, there is no reason they need expensive data plans.  either sync the phone via wifi or cradle it at the end of the shift and process the tickets through some batch program.  it is silly that they are going with verizon when ATT has better coverage in Tulsa.  verizon has only been in this market for a few years and has a skeleton patchwork of towers.

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Verizon's cell service hasn't even been here that long.  Didn't it start up back in February?

it has been here a little longer than that....but still no where near as mature as sprint or ATT.  Sure, verizon roams on Sprint but last time I checked data doesn't roam across networks, only voice.

so you are looking at expensive, poor coverage data plans.

either cradle at the end of the day or find a wifi hotspot.

if memory serves me correctly, Tulsa as a MOTOmesh wifi network.  Not sure if that is just downtown (where I see it in SSID lists) or all over town.  But if they already have a MOTOmesh all over town, EVDO is absolutely NOT needed.

quote:

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Originally posted by inteller

it has been here a little longer than that....but still no where near as mature as sprint or ATT.  Sure, verizon roams on Sprint but last time I checked data doesn't roam across networks, only voice.

so you are looking at expensive, poor coverage data plans.

either cradle at the end of the day or find a wifi hotspot.

if memory serves me correctly, Tulsa as a MOTOmesh wifi network.  Not sure if that is just downtown (where I see it in SSID lists) or all over town.  But if they already have a MOTOmesh all over town, EVDO is absolutely NOT needed.

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Verizon actually roams on US Cellular

One of the E-Citations vendors was offering a choice of EVDO and EDGE, EDGE being the slower predecessor to at&t's 3G.

But with all the hardware, toner upkeep and data expense, the cost of writing single ticket has got to be a lot more than it was when it was just a couple of carbons.  They will have to have more roadblocks just to get ahead...

Well, at least the handheld fingerprint devices dont draw blood yet...
(http://www.technovelgy.com/graphics/content06/gattaca3.jpg)

Im reading now that the money to fund e-Citations is being taken away from the crime labs.
Does this mean no more 24-hour DNA test results next time a serial rapist is on the loose?

What a statement this makes as to our priorities.

quote:

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Originally posted by inteller

  But if they already have a MOTOmesh all over town, EVDO is absolutely NOT needed.

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It's not all over town. For the little amount of data they should need for these things, there is no difference between EDGE and EV-DO, so they should use whichever carrier has the least expensive data.

There is EV-DO data roaming, FWIW, although at&t has usually been better about making sure they have roaming agreements for data where they don't have their own coverage. They almost never allow in market roaming, but that shouldn't matter in the least, since at least USCC and at&t have no outdoor coverage issues anywhere in town that I've been.

Before Cingular bought ATTWS, both of those networks did have issues, especially the Cingular 1900MHz network.

"We are saving lives," City Councilor John Eagleton said. "We have 8 fewer traffic fatalities for 2010 than the average of the previous 10 years. We're saving lives, making Tulsa safer to drive, making money, it's a win."

The success of the program is causing backups in the prosecutor's office, which is planning to hire more people to handle the load.
http://www.newson6.com/story/14390727/tulsa-police

Maybe we need a real accounting to see if all the hidden costs of E-citations end up actually costing more.
And as far as safety, how is exposing officers to more traffic stops per hour "safer" for them?

Dont break the law and you have nothing to worry about.  If you are man enough to speed and drive recklessly, your man enough to suffer the consequences.  They not only do traffic enforcement, they also work traffic accidents, that way it doesnt tie up officers who are responding to other calls. 

Another way to think of it is this: You have no idea if that dodge charger, Crown Vic, Mercury Marauder you are about to pass is an unmarked car or not, so you play it safe and dont pass them.  Even if its not a cop, that unmarked police car "whose sole purpose is to generate revenue" made you slow down and think about if they were a cop or not, thus making that highway just a little bit safer, right?

that particular model of zebra printer you mentioned above is a thermal printer on thermal paper, thus doesnt use ink or a laser cartridge.  We use them at work, and they are fantastic.

Where are they writing these 7500 citations?  I rarely see a car pulled over anymore or speed traps for that matter.  As far as 8 less deaths it's got to be dumb luck because Tulsa drivers are definitely not improving.

Especially the ones on 169.  Wowzers.  I have to make sure my life insurance policy is up to date when I venture out for work and come home everyday.

Anyone in Oklahoma understand the notions of 'passing on the left, slow lane on the right'?

That's good advice to give a seven-year-old, but we all know even good drivers creep above the speed limit going over a hill, or dont spend a few seconds completely stopped at a red light before making a right turn, and if someone else is intent on capitalizing on that opportunity, they will.

This will increase or decrease safety depending on how you want to look at it.

#1 its less time the officer will have to ask the person questions standing next to the car.  #2 its less time with people pulled over (rubber neckers).

But on the more dangerous side there will be more stops and more times getting in and out of the car.

and chances are you will be let off with a warning if your license is valid, tag and insurance is current.  I would say 99.8% of officers would not pull someone over for going 1-3mph over the limit coasting downhill.  If they do, fight it, its simple.  For the most part, their radar guns arent that accurate.  And although laser is, they arent going for people going 1-5mph over.  They want the big fish 15+ mph over.  I have driven past HUNDREDS of cops without wearing my seatbelt or rolling a stop sign, and have yet to been given even a long stare, let alone pulled over.

I encourage you guys to fill out a ride along waiver and go ride with a tulsa police officer.  If you need a name of who to ride with, let me know.  Your perception of them will be different.

I haven't found any.

I'd like to see some drivers at least do a "right turn on red after hesitation" compared to what I often see which is more like "what red light".  Same thing with stop signs.  Whenever I approach a stop sign, I check my rear view mirror.

Me if everyone would get the hell out of my way.

and when merging on the highway, either slow down, speed up or move to the other lane.  Don't go the same speed as me where I can't merge, its not a difficult concept!

That's what turn signals are for.  You may enter the highway at any speed you want, as long as it's different than the main flow of through traffic, as long as you put on your turn signal.  The object is to make as many through drivers take evasive action as possible.  That's why the yield sign faces the entering traffic.  It tells you that the through drivers will yield to you.  The concept that the entering merging traffic should change their speed to blend into through traffic is absurd.

If they would just make the shoulders a little wider, I'd use them more for passing.

You could get a smaller vehicle.  You might not live too long driving it though.

 :D

That's what murdercycles are for.