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Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: Rico on January 07, 2008, 10:46:39 pm OK... I was not very fond of the Arena concept from the beginning... From my personal experience these have panned out to be more fizz and less pop than anything else.
That being said; I was convinced, at one point, that the Arena would be a stepping stone to a possibly larger and more successful infill of the Downtown area. Lately I have had this nagging perception that this may be all smoke and mirrors. I can't think of one thing that has been directly connected to the Arena that has been good for Downtown... Unless of course you count the money being paid to the employees of Vision Builders.. Maybe I just need to place a brighter light on this whole thing.? Let's name things that could not have happened if this Arena had stayed on the drawing board. I'll begin... 1.Celine Dion would not be playing Tulsa. 2.The Mayor would not have been able to buy a new City Hall. I hope there is someone with a brighter picture of this whole scenario than I have had lately. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: tulsa1603 on January 08, 2008, 12:12:05 am 3) we wouldn't have the arena progress to oo and ahh about, and that would mean less focus on downtown.
I'm not the biggest fan of the location, but the design is great. The problem I have with arenas in general is that they are used only a few times a week as opposed to constant use and traffic. It will be hard to build restaurant and hotel business on the arena alone. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: Conan71 on January 08, 2008, 12:34:05 am Today was the first time I noticed going past on 244 that it's form is starting to get more interesting.
It's already got infill Rico. The Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: perspicuity85 on January 08, 2008, 12:45:59 am Ok, I agree, the location sucks, Blue Dome or the Brady Arts districts would have been better, but the arena is an extremely overdue asset the city needs. Tulsa is like the fat kid that's afraid to get in the deep end of the pool. Every other city our size opened their arena at least five years before we are. Thank GOD we finally came to our senses, and thank GOD we built something worth noticing, to make up for the fact that it took us so damn long. I'm looking forward with cautious optimism for the opening act. I'm praying it's somebody that makes us look good nationally like Eric Clapton instead of a country star like Garth Brooks or Carrie Underwood. Let's try to be ahead of the outside perceptions for once....
Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: sgrizzle on January 08, 2008, 07:03:37 am Borrowed from the city-data forums:
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e64/kiamichi/arena-new006.jpg) Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: inteller on January 08, 2008, 07:22:59 am quote: Yes, it is too bad the wright building couldn't be demo'd just to shake out the rats. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: TheArtist on January 08, 2008, 09:55:36 am The NW side of the arena has the best "lines" but you cant get a good pic because of the ugly buildings around it on that side lol. But yea, I was hoping for some sort of hotel/mixed use development to go on the Towerview site. It would have helped connect the arena to the other nice parts of downtown much better. Plus fixing the bridge and making it attractive for pedestrians to cross over to the Brady Arts district would have been nice. The arena was the "start" but we have so far failed on the follow-up/supporting stuff that should have gone in around it. But over all it is a beautiful facility that I look forward to going to. And I think it will have a positive impact for the businesses down there. Though not a large one, but every bit helps at this point.
Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: cannon_fodder on January 08, 2008, 10:25:57 am I was
I'm starting to think I was a fool. A few new things have gone in the Blue Dome, a couple near the Brady, the Pearl has made some progress. But the Kandbar thing has been a bust, no new developers have made a commitment, and no new construction inside the IDL has taken place that hasn't been funded by tax money. Most recently the announcements have all been jobs LEAVING downtown. Oh, and just for fun we have added a new vacant building near our new arena and renovated convention center... thanks city hall. Tons of negativity on these forums lately too, if this group of cheerleaders (AOX excluded) is getting down something has to change. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: carltonplace on January 08, 2008, 11:58:57 am I know cannon, I'm losing my optimism too and I think I want to focus some frustration on the administration. When Maylor came into office we had momentum and promise which has since all but faded. The projects underway now are the same ones that were already on the horizon or planned before her stint and nothing new since. So far she has moved city hall (I think a good move, many disagree) and covered the cost over run on the arena and not much else. Where are the street side cafes in downtown that she promised? Where are all of the new jobs? Where are the young people? Where is the economic development? Downtown is one of my favorite places but there is nothing going on there. The only thing we have in abundance is bums and grifters.
I want my hope back. I want mixed use East End development that is not big box. I want a grocery store and people living in downtown. I want baseball. I want structured parking/retail instead of surface lots. I want infill in uptown and the Brady District. I want the Pearl district and Gunboat master plans enacted. Maybe it's time that downtown got its own seat on the council. It's def time to scrap DTU and all of the other cronies that are holding it back despite millions in tax payer funded improvements. We have to change the perception of downtown and make it a destination again. end mindless rant, sorry. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: Conan71 on January 08, 2008, 12:10:32 pm quote: This is how we sucker in young idealistic Iowa farm kids, Cannon. [:P] Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: Wrinkle on January 08, 2008, 12:16:01 pm Maybe we could get Mr. Boren to host a goodwill conference here on TN.
Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: cannon_fodder on January 08, 2008, 12:31:40 pm No, I think you;re right Carlton. Downtown is a rare destination for most. I worked down there, know the area, go to the PAC and live within 5-10 minutes... but I still only go downtown once a month now that I do not live there. Going for a beer, a show, or soon an "event" brings bursts of life but is not the vibrant atmosphere we are looking for.
Catch 22 really. You need vibrancy to make it worth the extra hassle for offices to move downtown, retail to get more residence, and events to feed off the vibrant atmosphere and in turn feed it. Bah! I don't have an answer so I shouldn't ***** I suppose. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: Renaissance on January 08, 2008, 12:46:29 pm One very convenient answer is a municipally subsidized minor league ballpark, built by a developer who includes a package of mixed-use development. Just a thought--the arena and ballpark would bookend the northern quadrant of the IDL so that all the juicy stuff in between--Blue Dome, Mayo Village, Brady--can synergize.
Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: carltonplace on January 08, 2008, 02:19:16 pm I agree Floyd, but the administration did not back the developer that offered a baseball stadium in favor of a developer that offered a Wal*Mart. Crud! pancakes?!
I know GDP had/has their problems but surely this would have turned out better if the city clearly stated that hotels/mixed use/stadium in downtown was something we want(ed). I can't help but consider that bold straight forward support from the administration could have stopped the bidding war for the Nordam property and given GDP time to acquire it. The way things went down, it feels like the administration might have taken sides to push GDP out of the way. I don't know this of course, but I wish I could have been a fly on the Himlefarb/Maylor wall. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: TheArtist on January 08, 2008, 02:27:00 pm Yes there was a flurry of activity and hope when the arena was started and vision 2025 passed.
But then the reality of how long it takes to do things took hold. The Mayo Hotel and Mayo Buildings will add a good amount of living... but will take a lot of time. First Street Lofts, Matthews lofts and art museum... will take a lot of time. East End deal fell through for now and even when something real gets announced, I am betting this year.... it will still take years to get going. Brady theater remodel fell though for its own reasons. etc. etc. We are just going to have to realize that we arent going to have the downtown we want as soon as we would like. My bet is that is we will be where OKC is now, in 2012 or 2013. And of course they are going to grow more this year, and so on. Even the River District that just got approved for development will take about a year just to do the "dirt work". About a year to prep the site, grading, water lines, sewer, electrical, roads, lake, etc. before any construction actually starts. Once it gets going though it will really move. I think the Mayor is taking solid steps with the planning and working hard to make things happen. But even just that process and starting things takes a looot of work. But once that foundation is laid out you will begin to see movement of the kind we have been wanting. Even the arena, the streets, sidewalks,new park, consolidation of city hall that will eventually free up some property, etc are basically "priming the canvas". Getting some of the living and other things I mentioned done or underway will only help the momentum once things really start going in about 4 or 5 years. Yea 4 or 5 years sounds like an eternity when you want it now lol. But it seems to me to be an honest time scale. Just hang in there. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: Renaissance on January 08, 2008, 02:35:39 pm quote: I agree 100% with you. I'm holding on to hope by a very thin thread: Chuck Lamson (owner of Drillers) has refused to commit to the Jenks location, and told the World's Dave Sittler just before Christmas to expect "an interesting January." (http://"http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071223_2_B1_spanc55567") Whatever plan comes out in the next 30 days (or 90--this is Tulsa, after all) is downtown's last chance to add that ballpark bookend. As for K&K's plans for the Mayo Village--those are still on track, and their holding company has actually become a very aggressive leasing agent for downtown. All their (remaining) buildings are fully occupied. At this point, it appears there is some tipping point holding things back. It's probably completion of the residential units around Main Mall. Baby steps, but like Artist said, these things take time. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: carltonplace on January 08, 2008, 03:32:00 pm quote: Not sure I've seen the solid steps. The arena, streets, centenial and route 66 walks, quiet zone, downtown housing and park are all pre this adminitration. City Hall is new, but I don't see developers lining up to build there. We have the same empty parcels of city owned land all over downtown with no takers. We have a Mayor's economic development office that is at odds with our (non)development authority neither with a clear vision for the future. DTU produced a master plan, but has supported tear down after tear down. Kanbar's first move was to create more parking right on our Main St after we spent millions to change it again in hopes of attracting new business there. Trying not to get bitter, but I'd love to see someone in the Mayor's office (the mayor) mend these rifts and regain momentum. With the investment we have in downtown it's certainly time to at least get in front of the cameras and speak about what is happening now and what the plan is for the future. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: Oil Capital on January 08, 2008, 04:08:28 pm quote: What "(remaining) buildings" of Kanbar's are "fully occupied?" First Place Tower is not fully occupied, neither in ground floor retail nor in office space. And I don't think Mayo Place was Kanbar's plan at all. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: Renaissance on January 08, 2008, 04:26:53 pm quote: I talked to someone associated with the leasing agent's office who, when pressed about where the promised street life was, told me that the properties were fully leased and street life would come as residential expanded. Perhaps I misconstrued this person's words, or they exaggerated. And as far as Mayo Place goes, it was always to include Kanbar's holdings. I got the impression that the duo collaborated on the (apparently left-behind) plan. This TMCC release (http://"http://ww3.tulsachamber.com/general.asp?id=361") (from 18 months ago) gave me that impression, as well as this Tulsa World article (http://"http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=060707_Ne_A1_Group35749"). Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: carltonplace on January 08, 2008, 04:33:51 pm Maybe they meant that all of the "usable office space" was fully leased. In the press conferences there was to be a confluence of office, living and retail and I don't think the living and retail spaces are ready to lease yet.
Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: Oil Capital on January 08, 2008, 04:45:58 pm quote: Whatever they may have said or meant to say, the truth is that all of the leaseable office space is not fully leased, nor is all the retail space, including some that is very much ready to be leased. Furthermore, AFAIK, there are no conversions of any Kanbar properties into living space currently underway or announced. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: Oil Capital on January 08, 2008, 04:49:52 pm quote: What "(remaining) buildings" of Kanbar's are "fully occupied?" First Place Tower is not fully occupied, neither in ground floor retail nor in office space. And I don't think Mayo Place was Kanbar's plan at all. [/quote] I talked to someone associated with the leasing agent's office who, when pressed about where the promised street life was, told me that the properties were fully leased and street life would come as residential expanded. Perhaps I misconstrued this person's words, or they exaggerated. And as far as Mayo Place goes, it was always to include Kanbar's holdings. I got the impression that the duo collaborated on the (apparently left-behind) plan. This TMCC release (http://"http://ww3.tulsachamber.com/general.asp?id=361") (from 18 months ago) gave me that impression, as well as this Tulsa World article (http://"http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=060707_Ne_A1_Group35749"). [/quote] What gives you the idea the "Mayo Place" plans are still on track? Nothing has been heard about it for a very long time. And speaking of expanded residential, does anyone know what is going on with any of that? The city awarded funds to 4 projects a very long time ago and so far only one has even started any construction. Kanbar pulled his off the list; The 420 Mayo appears to have stalled, or whatever... The Mayo Hotel, last we heard, is supposed to start work this month (but of course earlier start dates have come and gone with no activity; I'm not holding my breath on this one either. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: Renaissance on January 08, 2008, 04:55:49 pm quote: As I said, simply the conversation I had with the person associated with the leasing office. That person insisted that things were still moving along, albeit more slowly given the split between the two. Could have been hot air; I don't know. But Topeca Coffee just opened. quote: Don't know, except that the same person suggested I consider purchasing a Mayo condo. I have a feeling that they're waiting on a pre-purchase number--industry standard seems like 40%-50% of units presold before construction begins. If that's the case, though, their marketing could use some help. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: Oil Capital on January 08, 2008, 05:17:07 pm quote: That is exceedingly odd, because both the Mayo Hotel and 420 Mayo are to be rentals, not for-purchase condos. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: Renaissance on January 08, 2008, 05:27:53 pm quote: Then color me misinformed. The only excuse I have is that the conversation took place over beers. I thought I was being marketed a condo, which is why I suggested they might be waiting on a certain presold amount. Otherwise, I have no idea what the delay could be. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: TheTed on January 08, 2008, 08:06:16 pm The Mayo Hotel website still says 'Occupancy Summer of 2007.'
Mayo Lofts (http://"http://mayolofts.com/index2.html") Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: Rico on January 08, 2008, 08:48:11 pm quote: If I am reading you accurately, a reasonable expectation for a Hotel, to house the hoards of people coming to conventions and concerts would be roughly "4 to 5 years" after it opens.... What I would like to know is where are the bankable investments..? You know.... The companies that pay people to find them an investment with a certain degree of promised return on their money.? I think we all can see the effect of the "tax dollars" from V2025... Everyone is aware that the City condemned the Towerview, has City Hall for sale, etc. You say the " consolidation of city hall that will eventually free up some property".. The problem I have with that is: The Arena was to have brought forward a surge of investment. We, as a City, are banking on increased Tax Revenue to make this whole thing fly. Hell.... we have no suitors that I am aware of for Towerview. Where is it at? Where is the economic momentum that all this tax money was to have created? I doubt Tulsa can hold it's breath for 4 to 5 years if somethings do not begin to pop.. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: Oil Capital on January 08, 2008, 08:59:30 pm quote: I noticed that too. LOL Obviously hasn't been touched for quite some time. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: USRufnex on January 08, 2008, 09:03:02 pm Evidently, it's too much to ask for people to wait until the arena is built and fully functional for a few months/years before judging its success or failure... [B)]
Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: Rico on January 08, 2008, 09:35:38 pm quote: If we lived in a City that could afford such a luxury that might be the way to go. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: TheArtist on January 08, 2008, 09:53:10 pm quote: At this point I honestly dont think the arena itself can bring a new hotel near it. Nobody in their right mind is going to buy the old city hall building anytime soon and put a hotel in there. The whole plaza would have to be ripped up and the buildings around it remodeled. The towerview site is still the better site if your going to build near the arena imo. (I still think it was a good idea to move though) My 4-5 year scenario is more contingent on a Baseball stadium going in on the East End, possibly where the Hartford building now is. That coupled with some development around it, including a small hotel, the Mayo Hotel lofts/hotel, Matthews building etc. PLUS the Arena will then begin to create enough life and interest to create a bustling downtown environment that will begin to grow on its own without "government intervention". Any "baseball stadium plus" deal that is announced will take several years to start and build then a few years to see other developments start during and after that. So, optimistically 4-5 years IF we get a baseball stadium and something around it. If no other large East End type development goes in and or no Baseball Stadium, then even the 4-5 year consideration could turn into a 10-15 year slog to get our downtown on the move. For then we would be forced to rely on small steps, each one taking years to start and get going. And thats if we really keep pushing and working at it. I remember people criticizing me for being all gung ho about the "Heavenly Hospitality" deal. Though I doubt they were for real even if we went with their demands. People were saying we shouldnt go with the "first person who asked us to the dance". I was like "Tulsa is the fat girl with stringy hair, missing a tooth and standing in the corner. If someone halfway decent asks her to dance, she needs to be thrilled and go dance lol. Everyone was like "Dont worry about it we will get lots of offers". I was just baffled by that. We are not. The suburbs will get more offers. And look what has happened. There was a window of opportunity when there was a lot of buzz going on with downtown. Now that the Kanbar thing and the East End thing"s" have flopped. The arena by itself cant carry the day. We need something else or its going to take a long slow haul where even 10-15 years could be optimistic. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: USRufnex on January 08, 2008, 11:01:34 pm quote: The city voted on it... your side lost. The people of this city decided they COULD afford it. Not unlike folks from Oklahoma City decided they could afford MAPS... In 1997, former Mayor Savage offered the taxpayers of Tulsa a downtown-only hodge-podge of half baked projects in addition to an arena, including a 5K capacity soccer/track&field stadium and "natatorium"-- then tried in vain a couple of years later on another citywide vote for a downtown-only arena sequel which was again defeated by the voters... former Mayor LaFortune offered the citizens of Tulsa County a chance to vote for an entire series of projects/incentives with the arena as a centerpiece... it passed with a 60% majority. Mayor Taylor told us she wanted "a river with water in it" and succumbed to the wishes of George Kaiser, so the citizens of Tulsa County were offered a river-only tax... a tax that could have narrowly passed if the mayor had simply pushed for a citywide vote... now Taylor's going to offer a road-only tax... some people never learn... That said, it's as if all the same people who were against Vision2025 are still trying to re-defeat it. Sure, I can disagree about the city of Tulsa deciding to do an arena to be just like all the other cities... Little Rock, OKC, Omaha, Louisville, KC... Wichita will be next in building an indoor downtown arena... I personally, of course, would have rather had a stadium that would have cost half the price... that would have had a major tenant in MLS... and would have rather had Dave Matthews open the $70mil outdoor stadium (which opponents including Recyclemichael and TW's Dave Sittler would constently tell us is "soccer only") than watch as Celine Dion opens the indoor arena built for well over double the price... There is a tax that is paying for this arena. The people of this city voted FOR it. It IS being built. There ARE people of good will who were desperate to vote FOR something like Vision2025 including this iconic 18K indoor arena, even if it wasn't perfect-- even if the benefits were in doubt. I think if LaFortune, a reasonable and smart person who you, Rico, have savaged over and over and over again for years on this site, had been re-elected mayor, we would actually have other projects lined up... As opposed to a mayor who, until she proves otherwise, is all about appearances and window-dressing. Whether the issue is downtown development, the river, police on bicycles, crime in general, the few hundred people who lost their jobs at Vanguard... etc, etc... /end rant Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: sgrizzle on January 09, 2008, 09:24:58 am BOK Center 2 weeks behind:
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080109_238_A1_hCoun88381 The gist is that lots of people didn't show up due to the ice storm so now they are running about 2 weeks behind. They need to have it dried-in by the end of the month so the interior crews can start. Might have to throw some plywood up so the interior crews can start on time. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: RecycleMichael on January 09, 2008, 12:22:40 pm Maybe Celine Dion can sing out in the parking lot.
Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: Rico on January 09, 2008, 03:07:51 pm Home Depot is having a sale on their Large tarps.
^ p.s. Ruffie... You have some strange case of hero worship there man. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: spoonbill on January 09, 2008, 03:32:10 pm quote: A group of investors with Starwood hotels already tried to build near the new arena (a Weston). Their major stipulation was that the city move the bus station a few blocks away. The City told them to go take a hike. The group was quite baffled. They are now looking at Broken Arrow just north of the Bass Pro and near what may be another large _____ and festival grounds on top of the hill (you fill in the blanks). Hint: 5 Letters. Buy 3 vowels. Loft Hotel for BA (http://"https://www.regdocumentcenter.com/Download?fileId=c434b7e93d949223cc512db2de3ac4bf") Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: brunoflipper on January 09, 2008, 03:46:05 pm quote:heavenly hospitality??? surely, you jest... those guys are charlatans... Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: spoonbill on January 09, 2008, 03:53:58 pm quote: I know the two brothers are goofy, and produced some other development plans that were insane, but they woke up Starwood, and they are moving on BA. Two more developers are working on a "Redrock" style festival and concert facility with Starwood's new concept as an anchor. The rumor is that they don't want anything to do with Tulsa politics. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: cannon_fodder on January 09, 2008, 03:59:15 pm Moving the bus station was no little thing. It would have required a buyout of federal funds used in its construction. Not too mention the bus station was placed there specifically for its proximity to City Hall (NA now, but we didn't know that then), the court houses, and the library - not too mention the new arena.
The Peabody in Memphis is about a lock away from the greyhound station... but the Westin in Tulsa can't be close to the MUCH nicer municipal station? Of course, they also demanded the centennial trail be moved the Right Annex be demolished, the Coney Islander be renovated and a ton of other things the city could not do in good conscience (hey, change your property because another property owner wants us to make you do it!). Also, any development going in out near bass pro would be essentially a different market than downtown Tulsa. Condo's, multi story offices, and urban retail don't exactly fit well in BA. And a hotel to service conventions and an events center is far different than on 15-20 miles out in a suburb. Some effect, sure. But not exactly direct competition. Also, I'm dense. I totally can not think of a 5 letter word with 3 vowels that goes with "and festival grounds." That phrase is tied to "camping and festival grounds" in my head. Retail doesnt make sense. Throw me a bone, its driving me nuts. - - - In any event... I'm surprise and appalled that nothing has gone in that vast emptiness around the arena. Apparently the free market either disagrees with the official line that downtown needs more rooms, doesnt think the arena will attract many acts, or doesnt want to bet on downtown Tulsa at all. Sad to say that, generally, the free-market (read: people betting with their money) has a better idea than government (people PLAYING with other people's money). Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: spoonbill on January 09, 2008, 04:22:04 pm quote: Ok Cannon, If you had an outdoor festival grounds with multiple stages and say. . .space for 8 to 12 thousand outside, and you had a groovy upscale modern Hotel next to more hotels, retail, restaurants, Bass Pro, and only a few minutes from the "big city" of Tulsa. What would you build if you had enough land and the appropriate demographic? Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: brunoflipper on January 09, 2008, 04:35:45 pm quote:worse, theyre complete bull****... they are no longe involved in the colorado springs development and theyve never done anything more than a marriott.... Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: spoonbill on January 09, 2008, 04:41:20 pm quote: . . . and they can destroy an all-you-can-eat buffet in one fail swoop! They have nothing to do with the new development in BA. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: brunoflipper on January 09, 2008, 04:45:33 pm quote:you said "they are now looking at broken arrow" i assumed you meant "they" as in the same group of bull**** wackos... Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: spoonbill on January 09, 2008, 04:47:24 pm quote: No. . . They as in Starwood Development Group. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: brunoflipper on January 09, 2008, 05:00:48 pm well in that case... four points by sheraton would be the most id hope for in b.a.....
Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: cannon_fodder on January 09, 2008, 05:11:13 pm Spoonbill, if you are alluding to them building an arena (3 vowels, 5 letters - check) I just don't see it happening. With Pryor having an outdoor venue that got props from Rolling Stone (December issue, best festivals of the year...) and Tulsa having several large indoor venues just down the road (which they are paying for by county taxes) I don't see that happening.
Not to mention allowing large concerts in Broken Arrow? I don't see the suburban masses being too thrilled about that. Avoiding large numbers of questionable people they don't know, noise, and general masses is why they live in a suburb to begin with. And maybe I'm dense, but of all the outdoor venues I have been too none are nestled in a suburban retail area just off of a freeway. Somerset, Red Rock, Lake Shore Park, Central Park (I realize we are talking about a scale difference). I could see a large public park that could be used as a venue, but not a venue per se... and the idea of an arena seems very far fetched to me. Possible mid-sized or larger venues within 20 miles: Tulsa Ice Rink (used as a venue in many towns) The Brady The PAC Convention Center Expo Square Pavilion BOk Arena QT Center Drillers Stadium Reynolds Center Mabee Center Chapman Music Hall Osage Million Dollar Elm Events Center Cherokee Casino Expo and that's the 2 minute list I came up with! Unlikely we need another mid-sized venue. then lets add: River Parks West (and associated pavilion) D-Fest location in downtown Mohawk Park (no noise problems there) Pryor and about two dozen other local parks around town large enough and isolated enough to handle such crowds. Seems the need is well fulfilled in the market. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: spoonbill on January 10, 2008, 07:40:20 am quote: I agree, don't know if it can be a success or not, but there are color site plans floating around and meetings taking place. They apparently are being backed by a national sponsor for naming rights. From what I hear the idea is not to take away from Tulsa (and not based on what WE need), but to take away from Bonner Springs, Redrock and other larger venues. The outside grounds can be converted into one large outside venue or several stages set apart by topography. Parking count is their biggest obstacle right now. They have a decent plan for traffic flow and the expansion of arterials already. On the grounds they have several theme restaurants, a music museum, and several businesses that would operate regardless of activity on the big stage. The inside arena portion is connected to a conference center that attaches to the hotel. The arena is in shaded relief which leads me to believe it is a phase 2 or 3. That is everything I know. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: bmuscotty on January 10, 2008, 03:48:19 pm The Mowhawk Park concert space would be a great location to be developed. Great location, good highway access, and its a pretty spot. Would need a lot of work though: wider paved roads going in and out, permanent parking lot, seating, stage, bathrooms, etc..... last concert I went to out there years ago it rained. The place was a sea of mud. The city (or whoever) put hay down everywhere but it didn't help much.
Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: TheArtist on April 23, 2008, 06:29:50 pm Found these pics on Skyscraper Page by JEMack...
All I can say is WOW! This thing is beautiful. I almost can't believe something like this is going up in Tulsa. Seems way beyond what could be expected for this town. (http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/4379/arena2byjemackfj7.jpg) (http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/8146/arena1byjemackhq9.jpg) Live cam view. http://99.157.43.17/view/view.shtml?imagePath=/mjpg/video.mjpg&size=1 Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: Renaissance on April 23, 2008, 07:17:45 pm quote: This one reminds me what a damn eyesore the Page Belcher Federal Building is. Now that's a building that could be torn down to make space for arena/convention center development, if Uncle Sam ever felt like building a new one. I spend a summer working there and it's really nothing worth saving. Anybody got any idea what the odds are of getting a new Federal Building any time soon? Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: Renaissance on April 23, 2008, 07:53:45 pm Here's the website for new federal courthouse projects. http://www.gsa.gov/Portal/gsa/ep/contentView.do?programId=8393&channelId=-12922&ooid=8294&contentId=14152&pageTypeId=8195&contentType=GSA_BASIC&programPage=%2Fep%2Fprogram%2FgsaBasic.jsp&P=PM
Tulsa is on the list, but there is no telling when it could happen. Not before 2012 though, if you navigate that site to the project funding guide. Rep. Sullivan ought to put this on his list. Maybe I'll email his office tomorrow about it. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: cannon_fodder on April 24, 2008, 07:51:45 am I worked in that building too, it's crap all around. The court rooms on the top floor are OK, otherwise even the courtrooms are junk. The access is awkward because of new security and it is indeed, very ugly.
BUT, the BOk center is wonderful. I'm glad that since we decided to go, we went all out. No point i building a half-assed project to sit around for 50 years. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: YoungTulsan on April 24, 2008, 02:23:17 pm quote: Man, that is something that bothers me about so many places. Stupid security updates have ruined the architectural intent of building after building. When I go to a building, my natural inclination is to head for what architecturally looks the most inviting, the most like an entrance. Because of half-assed "security" updates, so often you now have to go in some stupid side entrance, while the clearly designed entryway sits unused and locked up. Some of this can be attributed to a switch from walkable to automotive society, as street widenings have encroached territory all the way up to the front entrance, and people are too lazy to walk more than 50 feet, so giant parking lots are built to the side and the side/back is used as an entrance. But, "security" reasons are a big problem as well. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: FOTD on April 24, 2008, 03:53:32 pm The place will be nothing more than a burden on the city. After 3 years, the average attendence will be 7000 .... hard to attract the acts at that point....
Sorry to tell you the truth. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: mrhaskellok on April 24, 2008, 05:34:20 pm I have never considered Downtown Tulsa a place to go and walk around and see the attractions, but for what it is worth, I was in Downtown the other day (first time in a while) and I was impressed. Lots of good streetscape work being done. The arena does look slightly strange ( I prefer the design of the stadium in Bricktown in OKC), but it was nice to see something really new.
The most interesting part of my visit downtown was going to the 16th floor of the ONEOK and looking down at the river. Minus the refineries, I thought the view and landscape was really nice. In fact, having spent a summer in San Antonio on their river walk and downtown OKC for two months on theirs', I think Tulsa has a lot more going for itself. ERGO, while I am not saying that the river walk was a good idea as purposed recently, the river is an asset and I am excited to see how this generation and future ones find ways to make it "work" for Tulsa. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: Renaissance on April 24, 2008, 07:36:33 pm quote: Examples in other cities, please. OKC, an identical market, seems to be doing quite well with theirs . . . . Just want something other than speculation backing your "truth." SMG isn't the kind of company that lets an arena under their management lie fallow. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: FOTD on April 24, 2008, 09:55:45 pm quote: The Ford Center attendance fell off after a few years of sensation. I think they average 9,000 an event. I remember when our civic center would lose out to slightly bigger markets because of the number of seats being sold. Just a hunch based on an educated guess. Wait to see... Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: TheArtist on April 24, 2008, 10:37:39 pm quote: The arena is one piece of a larger puzzle. A puzzle that still has many pieces that need to be put into place. I think people want to see Tulsa and downtown Tulsa succeed. There are people who will keep pushing until we get the vibrant downtown, city and county we hope will happen. One can either envision a future in which Tulsa is a vibrant and growing city or stagnant. Once you choose which vision you want, you then begin to put the pieces of the puzzle into place and keep pushing for that vision to come to fruition. We can say it wont work, or we can do what it takes to make it work. You can either come up with ideas to help make it work, or not. Its up to you. But I choose to try and figure out ways to make it work, to make Tulsa into the kind of city I imagine. I kind of feel sorry for someone who seems so fatalistic, so lazze fair about a negative outcome. If someone was so sure it wouldnt work, and they really honestly cared. I would think they would be the one pushing all that much harder to come up with creative ideas TO make it work, to make things succeed. Because indeed if it does fail, you will pay for it just as surely as I. Its going to be built, its being built, you or I can have no influence on that. You and I can have an influence on whether it fails or succeeds. What are you going to do? Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: perspicuity85 on April 24, 2008, 11:28:17 pm quote: Sorry to tell you the truth, but you're completely ignorant. Multiple other cities that are much smaller than Tulsa sell out arenas this size for many years. Big name music acts and NCAA tourney games are not hard to sell out. Do a little research before you post your personal conventional wisdom as factual information. The success of the BOk Center is not a mere opinion of well-wishers, it is an extremely intelligent guess based on market research and a plethora of anecdotal examples. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: perspicuity85 on April 25, 2008, 12:37:09 am Maybe this will finally quell the arena critics:
Alltel Arena (http://"http://www.alltelarena.com/") in Little Rock, whose MSA has about 250,000 LESS people than Tulsa's. It opened in 1999, and recently hosted NCAA tourney games in which the lowest game attendance was 16,000 out of 18,000 total seats. Wells Fargo Arena (http://"http://www.iowaeventscenter.com/") in Des Moines, whose MSA has about 350,000 less people than Tulsa's. The arena opened in 2005 and seats 17,000. Qwest Center (http://"http://www.qwestcenteromaha.com/") in Omaha, whose MSA has about 75,000 less people than Tulsa's. The Qwest Ctr. opened in 2003 and seats 18,000. Times Union Center (http://"http://timesunioncenter-albany.com/default.aspx") in Albany, NY, whose MSA has about 50,000 less people than Tulsa's. This arena opened in 1990 and seats 17,500. The BOk Center is also being marketed by SMG, the world leader in venue management, marketing, and development. You can find a complete list of SMG's clients here. (http://"http://www.smgworld.com/arenas.aspx") The only regret we should have about the BOk Center is that we didn't build it sooner. We were passed up by multiple other cities, missed out on tons of revenue (opportunity cost), and allowed rising construction costs to bite us in the donkey. However, the iconic design of the BOk Center partially makes up for it. Pelli is a world-class architect, whose work is probably studied by every architecture student in the world. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: Hoss on April 25, 2008, 06:45:28 am quote: And this building should be no different; the more that happens to it the more anxious I get to see the finished product. It should be something that we as Tulsans are proud of. Oh, except for those who would rather us be in the dark ages. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: FOTD on April 25, 2008, 07:30:11 am quote: You must be paranoid about the future potential of the BOK center to lash out with personal attacks. Must not feel secure yourself to be putting other's down like that. I speak the truth on attendance. The BOK center will be a drain on city resources. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: TheArtist on April 25, 2008, 07:54:58 am quote: I top your prediction with this.... It will do well, then may slack off and be a drain, but then will do well again. It will do well in the long run as Tulsa and downtown pushes forward and begins to grow more rapidly in the future. As the vibrant growth that many of us are pushing for finally takes hold. Having this new arena in the interim will be one more asset helping to lead to that positive future. So there...[:P] Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: mrhaskellok on April 25, 2008, 08:04:48 am Is it incorrect to assume that as gas prices go up, more companies and organizations will seek centrally located venues?
Will ticket prices go up dramatically for longer flights? So will there be a push to shorten business trips for events? Lol, probably a stretch but the idea just came to me and curious if anyone thinks oil prices will affect the BOK center's success. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: cannon_fodder on April 25, 2008, 08:36:02 am FOTD, I appreciate your skepticism.
BUT, it is totally unfounded and nonconstructive. Essentially, you are just shouting "yeah, but it will suck!" over and over. Nothing to back up your claim and no cure for the pending doom. What good is that? Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: YoungTulsan on April 25, 2008, 08:48:58 am We do need more people living in that specific area if the lesser events are to do decent ticket sales. Don't include the jail in the population count nearby :)
I see it being a big draw for the big name acts, but as long a downtown is a ghost town, no one is going to casually drop by the Talons game in the middle of a fun filled afternoon. They will probably have a smattering of Kia owners and thats about it. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: perspicuity85 on April 25, 2008, 09:53:48 am quote: Don't try that projection psychology on me. And I did not intend to personally attack you. Admittedly, I did attempt to elicit humor at your expense. But, without any facts or stats to back up your claim, your argument is ignorant. You can't just puke out your opinion and expect everyone to slurp it up. I provided some stats and examples of other arenas that are successful. Your stats don't even make sense. Of course the Ford Center average attendance is not a sell-out. The bulk of events that occur there are af2 football and minor league hockey- both of which would not sell 20,000 tickets anywhere. But, big name concerts, such as the Red Hot Chili Peppers and Eric Clapton, do sell out the Ford Center. Those acts will not play in a venue that is much smaller than the BOk Center. I am willing to bet everything I own that those type of events will at least come very close to selling out the BOk Center for quite awhile. There is also a huge intangible marketing benefit the arena provides for Downtown and the whole city. Do you honestly think all of the recent or scheduled private investment in Downtown would have occurred without the arena project? Granted, I agree with people that say the arena alone will not sustain Downtown, however it is an important and necessary asset. I just can't fathom anyone thinking the arena is not financially viable. Do you really think every other city in America just got it wrong? Do you really think you're smarter than SMG? Are you an executive for the Boston Consulting Group? I don't get it. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: FOTD on April 25, 2008, 10:11:29 am quote: Yes, I backed up my claim by sighting the decline in average attendence in OKC at the Ford Center after just a few years. Just the facts. Go back to yer rah rah rah sis boom bah rag. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: FOTD on April 25, 2008, 10:30:01 am Here is Neil Diamond's schedule.
If Tulsa starts averaging only 7000 per show, or even 10,000 per show, we will be hard pressed to attract big shows here over these other listed venues. Our demographics are no where near these other metropolitan cities. July 2008 19 - St. Paul, MN - Xcel Energy Center 22 - Sioux City, IA - Tyson Events Center 24 - Omaha, NE - Qwest Center Omaha 26 - Chicago, IL - United Center 29 - Indianapolis, IN - Conseco Fieldhouse 31- Auburn Hills, MI - The Palace of Auburn Hills August 2008 3 - Cleveland, OH - Quicken Loans Arena 5 - Washington, DC - Verizon Center 7 - Hartford, CT - XL Center 9 - Philadelphia, PA - Wachovia Center 12, 14 - New York, NY - Madison Square Garden 18 - Pittsburgh, PA - Mellon Arena 20 - Albany, NY - Times Union Center 23 - Boston, MA - Fenway Park 25 - Columbus, OH - Value City Arena at The Schottenstein Center 27 - Green Bay, WI - Resch Center 29 - St. Louis, MO - Scottrade Center September 2008 14 - Winnipeg, Manitoba - MTS Center 16 - Edmonton, Alberta - Rexall Place 18 - Calgary, Alberta - Pengrowth Saddledome 20 - Vancouver, British Columbia - General Motors Place 22 - Portland, OR - Rose Garden 24 - Seattle, WA - KeyArena at Seattle Center 26 - Sacramento, CA - ARCO Arena 28 - San Jose, CA - HP Pavilion October 2008 1-2 - Los Angeles, CA - Hollywood Bowl 7 - San Diego, CA - San Diego Sports Arena 10 - Glendale, AZ - Jobing.com Arena 12 - San Antonio, TX - AT&T Center 14 - Houston, TX - Toyota Center 16 - Dallas, TX - American Airlines Center 19 - Oklahoma City, OK - Ford Center 21 - Tulsa, OK - BOK Center 24 - Tampa, FL - St. Pete Times Forum 26 - Ft. Lauderdale, FL - BankAtlantic Center 28 - Orlando, FL - Amway Arena Orlando 30 - Jacksonville, FL - Jacksonville Veterans Memorial Arena IMHO, venues like the new Studio K at TBT do more for our image than this boondoggle does. BTW, catch About Tango at TBT....see Tulsa's greatest athletes and most talented artists all in one place at one time. This venue and Theatre company proves you don't have to be big to get attraction. It's about the movement not the size. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: Renaissance on April 25, 2008, 11:07:18 am quote: Dude, you're just not quite right on this one. It's not a question of whether the arena will attract crowds. It' a question of whether arenas attract big shows. Big shows always attract crowds. And for the foreseeable future, as long as SMG is managing, our arena will be attracting big shows. You underestimate the amount of money in the Tulsa market. Prepare to be pleasantly surprised. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: perspicuity85 on April 25, 2008, 12:48:27 pm quote: You are missing the whole point. The aggregate average attendance doesn't mean squat. Why in the hell would Neal Diamond care if the Tulsa Talons sell out the BOk Center? He only cares if the BOk Center sells out other big name music acts. Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: dsjeffries on May 01, 2008, 06:41:07 am Took a fun picture of a BOk Worker (bokworker, is that you?) the other night...
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2204/2455231142_5d233facd9.jpg) Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: PonderInc on May 01, 2008, 12:09:08 pm One of the many cool things about the BOK arena is that it was designed for both large and small crowds. For events that are not expected to draw big crowds, there's sort of a curtain system that will hide the upper tier of seating. This makes for a more intimate setting, allows you to have a "sold out" crowd even at smaller events, and allows you to customize the seating/ticket sales as needed. This, in itself, is a marketing tool for the arena...promoters like it.
Title: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: cannon_fodder on May 01, 2008, 02:54:09 pm FOTD, you did not back up your statements with anything. You said, Im paraphrasing here, the "BOk will suck because I think the Ford Center now sucks. I think they have XYA attendance."
Stating an opinion or impression to back up your opinion really doesn't advance your position. If you have data that shows a decline in attendance and wish to correlate that to the shows that are appearing or have some other support for your claims - lets see it. My guess, based on an actual fact, is that the 18,000 average for the Hornets games over the last couple of years boosted the attendance figures to new highs. Unless, of course, prior to that the FORD Center hosting events of that size 60 times a year (it didn't). So your method of determining success by attendance would be skewed (in my favor) even if you had the data (which you don't). Title: Re: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: Renaissance on July 08, 2010, 01:09:07 pm On the day that the sale of Old City Hall has been approved, I thought I'd dredge up an old thread. We discussed a lot of salient topics 30 months ago, and so much has happened since then.
Title: Re: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: Hoss on July 08, 2010, 01:33:06 pm On the day that the sale of Old City Hall has been approved, I thought I'd dredge up an old thread. We discussed a lot of salient topics 30 months ago, and so much has happened since then. I found this rather funny: Quote The place will be nothing more than a burden on the city. After 3 years, the average attendence will be 7000 .... hard to attract the acts at that point.... Sorry to tell you the truth. Too bad FOTD isn't around for us to pick on, since 2/3rds of that time has come and I'd say it's been better than that. A better number really would be percentage of seats sold per configuration. Title: Re: BOK Center... Almost here..... Post by: custosnox on July 08, 2010, 01:37:42 pm I found this rather funny: Maybe we can let him come back for a little bit in a year just so we can see what he has to say about that comment then.Too bad FOTD isn't around for us to pick on, since 2/3rds of that time has come and I'd say it's been better than that. A better number really would be percentage of seats sold per configuration. |