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Title: Communistulsans embrace Nanny State Post by: tim huntzinger on January 14, 2008, 08:33:32 am I just want to give a shout out to all you closet socialists who are too lazy and stoopid to remove your own tree debris. Every pile lining our streets is testimony to a deep-seated belief that, when pusch comes to shove, we need, we WANT, the Nanny State - big-bad gubnmint - to come in and clean up our messes. That $30M was a gift from the Money Tree Fairies! And them trucks are not from South Carolina, they are from Santa Clause's North Pole! [:D]
And some Magickal Day the Tooth Fairy will bring us allll Universal Health Care! Title: Communistulsans embrace Nanny State Post by: inteller on January 14, 2008, 09:15:15 am quote: hey, if they would take the capitalist approach that Broken Arrow does and issue temporary burn permits I'd take care of them myself. But this communist city created this mess a long time ago by only allowing you to dump debris at certain locations (which they have now closed). Most Tulans would like to do the right thing, but the city gubmint has already foisted those attempts. Title: Communistulsans embrace Nanny State Post by: TeeDub on January 14, 2008, 09:40:04 am I just want to finally get something for all my tax dollars. And if I have to wait until February, I will. Title: Communistulsans embrace Nanny State Post by: Ibanez on January 14, 2008, 10:12:32 am quote: What he said... Title: Communistulsans embrace Nanny State Post by: cannon_fodder on January 14, 2008, 10:34:25 am +1.
Well that and Tim, there is a matter of nuisance , federal government, as well as scale involved here. The city can contract out to have all the trees cleared for $3.5 million and pass that tax burden on irrespective of actual cost. I have a very small amount of debris. However, contracting someone to pick it up would still cost a certain minimum amount of money - far in excess of my $10 pro-rata share of the cleanup. What's more, if the city did not address this problem it would go unresolved for many YEARS. Certain neighbors would never clean up their debris until neighbors complained to the city of violations of ordinances, at which point it would cost the city and tax payers $3.5mil in enforcement actions to keep the city within its own codes. The cleanup provides a timely manner for everyone to get their act together. and what's more, in line with the "they made the rules" criteria above, in order to get Federal money to assist in the cleanup we have to contract centrally for many services. Since the Federal government ALREADY took the money out of our community we have to play ball to get it back. If they did not extract excess taxes for pet projects from Tulsa, Tulsa did not dictate the disposal terms, and one could assume people would dutifully take care of their own property - then I'd be MORE than happy to do it my damn self. Such is not the case, and it has become the domain of government to facilitate such cleanup. - - - Actually, while we are at it. It has always been the domain of government. Ancient Rome cleaned up after disasters. The fire of London. The great Quake in San Francisco. The Chicago Fire, and on. Even more importantly, this is NOT the Nanny State acting. It is our local government. At the local level I am a supporter of government action. That's why I want a smaller federal government, so the state and the local can decide what the community needs and what should remain as a right/responsibility of the people. If the City of Tulsa came up with a health care plan for all Citizens that worked AND saved everyone money, I'd be all over it. Title: Communistulsans embrace Nanny State Post by: rwarn17588 on January 14, 2008, 12:21:46 pm I don't have a problem with government taking a role in cleanup when you have large-scale disasters such as this one.
Face it: There are enough poor people in town that the debris would simply be there forever if someone else doesn't pick it up. In a fairly short time, those piles of limbs and twigs would become a fire, health and safety hazard. This is a case where the government takes a role because it's for the very obvious greater good. That free market stuff sounds good most of the time. But when you have hundreds of thousands of people in a pickle through no fault of their own, then it's not so hot. To me, it's no different than a little bit of tax money from each person being used for such "socialist" services such as water, sanitation, fire departments and highways. Those are things in which a little tax money reaps big and palpable benefits for everyone. If you think it's "communist" or "socialist" or whatever, then don't use water, sewer and highways and see how great "free market" life can be. Title: Communistulsans embrace Nanny State Post by: spoonbill on January 14, 2008, 12:53:07 pm Well I think we missed a golden opportunity.
We should have piled all of the debris in center of the arkansas river, forming several large islands. We could then build hotels, restaurants, and massage parlors on those islands. But wait. . . there's more. . . When development on the islands slows because of Tulsa city politics, we could float the islands down stream and make them part of the Jenks river project. I call it "The Bradford Pear Channels Project." Title: Communistulsans embrace Nanny State Post by: RecycleMichael on January 14, 2008, 01:24:06 pm Spoonbill always wanted to be a beaver.
Title: Communistulsans embrace Nanny State Post by: spoonbill on January 14, 2008, 01:45:46 pm quote: I am easily inspired! Title: Communistulsans embrace Nanny State Post by: waterboy on January 14, 2008, 03:19:53 pm Comrades, I have been billing the city for the shade my trees provide their workers, the sanitation jobs they provide when I bag the leaves, and the overall increase of value to the city that my trees have made to our cosmopolitan flavor. As of yet there is no response.
Title: Communistulsans embrace Nanny State Post by: cannon_fodder on January 14, 2008, 03:36:25 pm Well surely your newfound wealth will treat TulsaNow to drinks at the Colony sometime? I can only assume.
Title: Communistulsans embrace Nanny State Post by: Ed W on January 14, 2008, 03:52:50 pm Fran Drescher - the nanny - is gonna embrace me? I can hardly wait.
Seriously, though, it's really a PITA that we have to wait for government to step in and try to set things right. Why, if people only had the ambition and drive, they'd be out on the streets fixing their own potholes, rebuilding bridges, arresting, trying, and executing lawbreakers, and doing all those other things our less efficient government cannot do. Why wait for Bush to decide on invading Iran? We could send a bunch of good-old-boys in pickups armed with deer rifles! That'll show 'em! Title: Communistulsans embrace Nanny State Post by: FOTD on January 14, 2008, 06:51:16 pm I had to have my damage hauled off at my own free will by almighty dollar.
It's a shame even in Natural disasters the states must campaign for relief reimbursements from the Feds. Where are all those illegals (politicians and immigrants)when they're needed? Many citizens do not see where their tax dollars are going. Iraq? Military? Entitlements? Out of sight and out of mind. So they want to "see" tangible evidence that they are entitled to much more than they are witnessing. In sight, clear out my tax account and never mind Medicare and social security. This is immediate satisfaction for angry taxpayers. However, there is some justice for the middle and lower income groups who need a hand up from a knock down winter storm. Title: Communistulsans embrace Nanny State Post by: rockyfrisco on January 14, 2008, 10:42:15 pm quote: Naw, send 'em to Washington D. C. Title: Communistulsans embrace Nanny State Post by: rockyfrisco on January 14, 2008, 10:43:13 pm quote: Are you planning to refuse your Social Security? Just curious. Title: Communistulsans embrace Nanny State Post by: spoonbill on January 15, 2008, 08:47:42 am quote: Why would he refuse Social Security. That is money that was stolen from him and is going to be returned (in part) by the criminal that took it. The question is "Are you going to sit around and rely on Social Security to take care of you?" I will not lick the hand of the criminal that rapes me, because he promises to keep me alive! I would bet that Tim's answer is NO! as well. Socialism has no place in America! Quotes of the day (thanks Neil): "The main plank in the National Socialist program is to abolish the liberalistic concept of the individual and the Marxist concept of humanity and to substitute for them the folk community, rooted in the soil and bound together by the bond of its common blood." [Adolph Hitler, quoted in Hitler, A Study in Tyranny, by Alan Bullock (Harper Collins, NY)] "It is thus necessary that the individual should come to realize that his own ego is of no importance in comparison with the existence of his nation; that the position of the individual ego is conditioned solely by the interests of the nation as a whole ... that above all the unity of a nation's spirit and will are worth far more than the freedom of the spirit and will of an individual. .... This state of mind, which subordinates the interests of the ego to the conservation of the community, is really the first premise for every truly human culture .... we understand only the individual's capacity to make sacrifices for the community, for his fellow man." [Adolph Hitler, 1933] There is the great, silent, continuous struggle: the struggle between the State and the Individual; between the State which demands and the individual who attempts to evade such demands. Because the individual, left to himself, unless he be a saint or hero, always refuses to pay taxes, obey laws, or go to war. [Benito Mussolini] Fascist ethics begin ... with the acknowledgment that it is not the individual who confers a meaning upon society, but it is, instead, the existence of a human society which determines the human character of the individual. According to Fascism, a true, a great spiritual life cannot take place unless the State has risen to a position of pre-eminence in the world of man. The curtailment of liberty thus becomes justified at once, and this need of rising the State to its rightful position. [Mario Palmieri, "The Philosophy of Fascism" 1936] "Comrades! We must abolish the cult of the individual decisively, once and for all." [Nikita Khrushchev , February 25, 1956 20th Congress of the Communist Party] "All our lives we fought against exalting the individual, against the elevation of the single person, and long ago we were over and done with the business of a hero, and here it comes up again: the glorification of one personality. This is not good at all." [Vladimir Lenin, as quoted in Not by Politics Alone] "We must stop thinking of the individual and start thinking about what is best for society." [Hillary Clinton, 1993] "We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans ..." [President Bill Clinton, 'USA Today' March 11, 1993: Page 2A] Do you really want to continue down that path? Title: Communistulsans embrace Nanny State Post by: cannon_fodder on January 15, 2008, 09:01:58 am +1
Of the money I pay into social security I plan on seeing a negative return. Very simply, the system is dysfunctional and always has been. It has no money and is entering the peak of its need. 1:1 ratio of those paying in and those collecting - do the math on the promised benefits and those paying cannot afford it. If I had the opportunity to pay only 50% of the Social Security tax and forgo all future benefits - I'd take it in a second. But as it stands, they take thousands of my dollars each year. I just want it back as an interest free 30 year loan. The bastards. Title: Communistulsans embrace Nanny State Post by: bokworker on January 15, 2008, 10:14:32 am Social Security will survive.... but it won't look like it does today. If you are younger than 50 and counting on social security as a material part of your retirement I believe you should do a serious reassessment of the life style you plan on living after retirement. The end rsult will be a "means test" so that if you are responsible and plan and save for your retirement then the government will reduce your SS benefits. As CF stated this basically means that the money we are now paying in will be absconded to support those that either were unable or unwilling to save on their own. I know that as I look at my financial future I place no expectation receiving SS benefits.
Title: Communistulsans embrace Nanny State Post by: tim huntzinger on January 16, 2008, 10:37:23 am Sorry for 'letterboxing' the topic! I just think it is great that Tulsans are ready to let big gubmint come in and clean up after us.
Why would I eschew my Social Security? Not only do I want it but I want people who will never need it to pay into it so we can use that money for other programs! See, I am not a civil servant and cannot depend on hosing the taxpayers once I have put in twenty years. In fact, since I am not a Boomer it is unlikely I will see a dime of it. The Nanny State will have me working until the day I die to pay for the Grays and Gubmint Workurs benefits! If'n trees fell in the street then the City has a responsibility to pick them up. But I am seeing entire trees that had never been off the property owner's land waiting for the Nanny to come by. Title: Communistulsans embrace Nanny State Post by: rwarn17588 on January 16, 2008, 10:49:33 am I don't think the situation with Social Security is as grave as many of you think.
It will take a relatively minor adjustment to make the fund solvent. Even if you do nothing, you will get at least 75 percent of benefits in the coming decades. The "bankruptcy" talk is pretty much baloney. I suspect, in the next few years, that the retirement age will simply be raised to 70, especially as average life expectancy keeps rising. Title: Communistulsans embrace Nanny State Post by: tim huntzinger on January 16, 2008, 10:59:29 am Well by gum I wish you would pass the word up the ladder, RW, cuz apparently entitlements are getting ready to cause 'Merca's credit rating by Moody's is set to be downgraded, right?
Uncivil servants' retirement age should be raised to 70, too, then. I call shennanigans on the commie gubmint workurs. Title: Communistulsans embrace Nanny State Post by: we vs us on January 16, 2008, 11:15:13 am quote: Yup. Extend the official retirement age and you might indeed have it solvent again. Might even be able to forego extending the tax into higher income brackets (though I wouldn't be against that, personally). I think we also forget that a very very large generation of kids is just entering the workforce, and starting to contribute into the SS kitty. By some accounts Gen Y is 70 million strong; that's a good size shot in the arm. Title: Communistulsans embrace Nanny State Post by: RecycleMichael on January 16, 2008, 11:37:37 am I plan to retire tomorrow after I win tonight's $95 million PowerBall drawing. I promise to hire many, many of them youngins to do my bidding.
Title: Communistulsans embrace Nanny State Post by: cannon_fodder on January 16, 2008, 11:58:42 am All is well?
Man, you're looking at different data than I am. Without draconian measures entitlement programs will bankrupt our country (Moody's, the World Bank, and most other's agree). (http://www.cbo.gov/docimages/55xx/doc5530//5530-Cover.gif) GAO study: http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdoc.cfm?index=5530 Unless Boomers start dropping dead, we will be spending 7% of our GDP on Social Security. Add Medicaid, Medicare, and other programs as they currently stand (no new handouts, lol) and in the not-to-distant future the official projections are for 21% of national GDP to go to entitlement programs. http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdoc.cfm?index=3521 Here is the expense through 2001: (http://www.cbo.gov/docimages/35xx/doc3521/352101.gif) From 2% to 9% of GDP since it started. 5 fold increase by 2010 as a % of GDP (no inflation adjustments or other fuzzy-math needed). That is not alarming? People realize they can vote cash to themselves and it has already run crazy. When it was started the minority of people who lived to collect were expected to live ~5 years or so. Now most people collect and live 15 years. The system was not designed for this and can not function long term as a retirement plan. The conclusion of the GAO study? On our current course government will account for 40+% of GDP within my lifetime. That is totally unacceptable. Title: Communistulsans embrace Nanny State Post by: tim huntzinger on January 16, 2008, 01:30:18 pm Dittos, CF. Let us start by renegotiating the retirements of civil servants at all levels. Tie their retirement pay to the SS retirement age. No more golden parachutes. That alone would save trillions.
Title: Communistulsans embrace Nanny State Post by: tim huntzinger on January 17, 2008, 09:38:13 am Heh heh . . . ol' 'Sully' cautiously defends (http://"http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=20080117_1_A1_hHesa50377") FEMA's decision not to bail out individuals. T.World: "He repeatedly emphasized the need for careful scrutiny throughout the process.
"People forget this is taxpayers' money," Sullivan said. "Someone has to really scrutinize this and watch it."" That would not be YOU, John . . . |