Tonight---Round #3--will anyone watch?

[mrburns918]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

quote:Originally posted by mrburns918
The minute the Republican Party started using tactics started by Lee Atwater and then Karl Rove is when the party moved away from true conservatism. It became divisive with an either you are with us or you are one of them. If you think about it, the moves that scumbag Rove did could only alienate people who generally voted Democrat. Heck, it even alienated within the party. Like you said, It is no longer about the issues, it's about getting your guy elected by any means, even if it goes against conservative principles. We talk about change, but Republicans settle for the same morons every election just like the democrats do claiming the lesser of two evils. Republicans are no better than democrats. Even at the end of his life, Atwater at least asked for forgiveness for the evil he invoked on his victims. Why wouldn't he? If you were a moral person would you not think the tactics used by Atwater and Rove are immoral? I believe these tactics could be used and defended , if the party believed in the seperation of church and state. If you are going to invoke a moral stand while campaigning you are going to have to practice what you preach. Remember, lying is sin, even when Republicans do it.  

All one has to do is look at the first presidential Reagan ran, it's like night and day compared to the sleaze of the past ten years.

Mr. Burns
Bob Barr for President

I know this is more of an esoterical point, but it always amuses me when people attack Karl Rove because he was divisive and then use divisive, angry statements to make their point...

You're obsessed with the idea that the religious right is running the party.  If that were the case, McCain wouldn't be the nominee.

You're shadow boxing a boogie man.

As to your points about church/state separation, I'm not following you.  Maybe you could explain it differently or rephrase it.

Real quick....

Focus on issues using a true conservative voice like the economy, foreign policy, size of government, federal spending, etc. etc.

NOT...

McCain fathered an illegitimate kid, swift boating the competition, manipulation of power in a negative sense, Fear, etc. etc.

The Republican Party did not have to stoop to this level and now it has come back to bite them. Again, look at Reagan's campaign and it is clear why he appealed to Democrats. He stuck with the issues. The content of his character was real. Even if you didn't like the man and/or politics, you respected him.

If I come off as angry and divisive regarding Rove it's because he helped sink the Republican Party. My angry/devisive stance doesn't have the power that his angry and divisive tactics did. Don't use me as a distraction for his sick, immoral strategy that has put the Republican Party where it is today. The party has to get back on track and address where it went wrong. You can't blame anyone else on this one.

The separation of church and state was to simply point out that you can't use the above tactics if your platform incorporates a Christian value base. It would only work if you believed in the separation of church and state. That being said, actually it's pretty disgusting across the board whether you believe or not in the separation of church and state.

If I am shadowboxing because of the passion of what my former party has become, then I fully accept it.

Remember the good ol' days when the great William F. Buckley defended conservatism and why it's the right choice? Now, it's Sean Hannity. Please.

Mr. Burns
Bob Barr for President

[TheArtist]

If you could give me a person or party that was religiously liberal and fiscally conservative, I would be all about it.

We are going to have either raise taxes or cut social security, or both. But neither side could win saying that. So we are obviously going to be left choosing between competing packs of lies.

Whoever suggested enough of either of those, enough to do the job, they would lose to the rosy but fantasy story the other side would put forth. The sad fact of the matter appears to be that one party is going to have to take the fall. The most noble thing that could happen is that the Dems get control of everything, if it were likely that the republicans could do it now I would be saying this about them,,, but one party gets control of the whole kit and cabootle. We are in such a pickle now that the party is going to have serious pressure to essentially do the right thing. But the sad part is, they would be presiding over the hurt, the belt tightening, etc. and they know it, and would likely lose the next round of elections because the other party could all the while still be touting their fantasy answer that wouldnt require the real hurt. And people would buy it. Then later the economy would indeed be in better shape, under the party that didnt have to do the hurting. So that right there makes it highly likely that the "noble" thing will not get done. Nobody wants to be the party in power during the serious belt tightening, especially when the economy is down already. For they then know they would lose in the long run. So we will do half measures, play with numbers on paper, borrow more, cross our fingers, and push off that slowly worsening day of reckoning even further.


You know what I have been juuust seeing the glimmers of, future possibility wise? Notice how the rest of the world is suffering because of what we have done. Yes they have some blame in the matter, but we were really the ones making the mess and even exporting some of the notions which helped make their messes more likely. Regardless of even whether you agree if thats the cause, thats largely the perception in the rest of the world. So lets imagine keep making a mess, even possibly worse messes because we choose to believe in fantasies. Sooner or later the rest of the world is going to get tired of having us hurt them. We can already see how the EU has taken some lead once they realized they really had a problem and it wasnt something that was going to hurt just us. As we lose economic power on the one hand, yet still have the power to seriously hurt the rest of the world on the other. The rest of the world may decide they have had enough and start playing a more seriously active role in... well, pulling our strings. Taking sides politically even? They may start joining together to change policies here through both economic means and even getting involved more in our own politics and media.

Its one thing to say, we wont truly influence your politics or elections, public/media perceptions on sovereign issues during normal times. But when what you all do hurts us so quickly, deeply and readily,,, well thats another matter. Its a whole different ballgame.  

Just a thought.

[iplaw]

quote:If you could give me a person or party that was religiously liberal and fiscally conservative, I would be all about it.

You might want to talk with Cannon Fodder. I think the libertarian party is a good fit for you.

I would much rather see the libertarian party in charge than a democrat any day.  Right now, I'm thinking that they've become what the republican party should be.

[rwarn17588]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

quote:If you could give me a person or party that was religiously liberal and fiscally conservative, I would be all about it.

You might want to talk with Cannon Fodder. I think the libertarian party is a good fit for you.

I would much rather see the libertarian party in charge than a democrat any day.  Right now, I'm thinking that they've become what the republican party should be.

That last sentence is a really good point.

The Libertarian Party had better start cultivating its grassroots and running viable candidates, or it'll be forever as respected as the Green Party, which is not at all.

However, I'm betting the GOP will turn more libertarian in the coming years. It has no choice. It's turning off scores of young voters in its current incarnation. Soon, the demographics will make change in the party inevitable.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

quote:If you could give me a person or party that was religiously liberal and fiscally conservative, I would be all about it.

You might want to talk with Cannon Fodder. I think the libertarian party is a good fit for you.

I would much rather see the libertarian party in charge than a democrat any day.  Right now, I'm thinking that they've become what the republican party should be.

That last sentence is a really good point.

The Libertarian Party had better start cultivating its grassroots and running viable candidates, or it'll be forever as respected as the Green Party, which is not at all.

However, I'm betting the GOP will turn more libertarian in the coming years. It has no choice. It's turning off scores of young voters in its current incarnation. Soon, the demographics will make change in the party inevitable.

RW, there are many, many centrist Republicans who are far better represented by the Libertarian Party.

One thing which would help palatability with many would be if they would drop the whole marijuana issue.  Makes it sound like it's the political party for dope-smoking Reaganites.

Mssg to all- unfortunately, politics keeps getting uglier and more about personal attacks, instead of really caring about the problems facing most of us.  The GOP just had to go after Clinton as retribution for Watergate and Iran-Contra.  I don't think this crap is ever going to end.  

D.C. is broken.  Lobbyists are running it and there's an elite club of 537 or so elected officials lapping up the gravy- on our dime.  

Until we can all say: "enough" and vote out every single incumbent, regardless of party affiliation and idealogical prejudice, this is the sort of governance we can expect, and it sucks.  I don't know if there is such a thing as a liberal or conservative politician anymore, everyone is more worried about being re-elected and maintaining power, with the exception of precious few, it's hard to see their true colors.  Witness the weak leadership in the house and Senate since 2000, it's nothing but a CYA game anymore.

/rant

Time to go act like a German w/ Cannon_Fodder and lighten up.  BAH!