Obama: Everybody's Going To Have To Give

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by we vs us

quote:Originally posted by guido911

quote:Originally posted by Hoss

quote:Originally posted by guido911

Who got waterboarded is my question?

What torture was employed at Abu Ghraib? Are you talking about panties on the head of prisoners and naked men piled up?

Does the name 'Khalid Sheikh Mohammed' ring a bell?  He was waterboarded.  But I'm sure you have a way to disspell that too.

Oh, the guy that planned 9/11? The guy that decapitated Daniel Pearl? The guy that gave up the Library Tower bombing plot in LA after being waterboarded? Yep! Bush should be prosecuted as a war criminal for abusing that piece of sh#t. The other two that were waterboarded were also high level al Qaeda figures. I will acknowledge that all three were both signatories and strict adherents to the Geneva Conventions.

I don't care if it was Satan himself, waterboarding is torture, and torture is illegal.  Full stop.  

And you should brush up on the Geneva Conventions a tad, Guido.  The GC binds us regardless of who we're fighting against.  That includes non state fighters like Al Qaeda. There is never a time when the GCs do not apply to us.  They aren't optional.  

It kinda keeps me up at night that you're a lawyer yet seem to have no qualms about ignoring the law based on expedience.

Oh whatever. It kinda keeps me up at night knowing that you are an American and have no qualms about not preventing terrorists from blowing up your fellow countrymen. And as I posted on another thread in this forum, there's another lawyer out there that supports my position:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/01/22/ED5329.DTL

And by the way, I am an American way before I am an attorney.

As far as not waterboarding satan, I guess you are one of those who would not waterboard the terrorist that had information that could save one in your own family's life, eh? I mean, "Sure my child got blown out of the sky by a terrorist act that could have been prevented, but I still got my principles."

[we vs us]

quote:Originally posted by guido911

quote:Originally posted by we vs us

quote:Originally posted by guido911

quote:Originally posted by Hoss

quote:Originally posted by guido911

Who got waterboarded is my question?

What torture was employed at Abu Ghraib? Are you talking about panties on the head of prisoners and naked men piled up?

Does the name 'Khalid Sheikh Mohammed' ring a bell?  He was waterboarded.  But I'm sure you have a way to disspell that too.

Oh, the guy that planned 9/11? The guy that decapitated Daniel Pearl? The guy that gave up the Library Tower bombing plot in LA after being waterboarded? Yep! Bush should be prosecuted as a war criminal for abusing that piece of sh#t. The other two that were waterboarded were also high level al Qaeda figures. I will acknowledge that all three were both signatories and strict adherents to the Geneva Conventions.

I don't care if it was Satan himself, waterboarding is torture, and torture is illegal.  Full stop.  

And you should brush up on the Geneva Conventions a tad, Guido.  The GC binds us regardless of who we're fighting against.  That includes non state fighters like Al Qaeda. There is never a time when the GCs do not apply to us.  They aren't optional.  

It kinda keeps me up at night that you're a lawyer yet seem to have no qualms about ignoring the law based on expedience.

Oh whatever. It kinda keeps me up at night knowing that you are an American and have no qualms about not preventing terrorists from blowing up your fellow countrymen. And as I posted on another thread in this forum, there's another lawyer out there that supports my position:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/01/22/ED5329.DTL

And by the way, I am an American way before I am an attorney.

As far as not waterboarding satan, I guess you are one of those who would not waterboard the terrorist that had information that could save one in your own family's life, eh? I mean, "Sure my child got blown out of the sky by a terrorist act that could have been prevented, but I still got my principles."

Looks like it really did happen:

quote: The top Bush administration official in charge of deciding whether to bring Guantanamo Bay detainees to trial has concluded that the U.S. military tortured a Saudi national who allegedly planned to participate in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, interrogating him with techniques that included sustained isolation, sleep deprivation, nudity and prolonged exposure to cold, leaving him in a "life-threatening condition."

And,

quote: Crawford, 61, said the combination of the interrogation techniques, their duration and the impact on Qahtani's health led to her conclusion. "The techniques they used were all authorized, but the manner in which they applied them was overly aggressive and too persistent. . . . You think of torture, you think of some horrendous physical act done to an individual. This was not any one particular act; this was just a combination of things that had a medical impact on him, that hurt his health. It was abusive and uncalled for. And coercive. Clearly coercive. It was that medical impact that pushed me over the edge" to call it torture, she said.  

Torture has nothing to do with information gathering.  A prisoner being tortured will tell his interrogators what they want to hear, not necessarily the truth.  Corroborating an intelligence stream from a tortured prisoner would take even longer.  There'd be an ice cube's chance in hell that the info would be actionable enough to stop the hijacking in progress, or to find the planted bomb, or to break up the cell that's just about to act.

Torture has nothing to do with being an American, either. Americans believe in the rule of law, due process, and having your day in court. Our founding documents say that, and we've signed international treaties extending those concepts to theaters of war. Torture really only has to do with revenge. So, you know, if you're cool with that, then you're the guy who has to live with himself, not me. Something tells me that's why you're defending it in the first place.

[rwarn17588]

Who would Jesus torture, guido?

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

Who would Jesus torture, guido?

Just you.

[rwarn17588]

quote:Originally posted by guido911

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

Who would Jesus torture, guido?

Just you.

That's mature.

At least it wasn't one of your previous retorts: "FU, you POS."

[}:)]

[guido911]

WEVSUS:

So sustained isolation, sleep deprivation, and nudity is torture? Okay. I guess we better stop using harsh language as well.

[nathanm]

quote:Originally posted by guido911

WEVSUS:

So sustained isolation, sleep deprivation, and nudity is torture? Okay. I guess we better stop using harsh language as well.

Torture is designed to cause enough mental anguish to get a person to spill the beans. That we have moved beyond using extreme physical force to effect that goal does not make it any better.

Nor does it make the information any more reliable. As an attorney, I'm sure you're aware of the many cases where police have used isolation and other psychological torture methods to make a suspect confess to a crime they did not commit.

[Hoss]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

quote:Originally posted by guido911

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

Who would Jesus torture, guido?

Just you.

That's mature.

At least it wasn't one of your previous retorts: "FU, you POS."

[}:)]

Yeah, I thought that real mature, coming from an attorney.

I wonder what happens when he's in a hole while making a case.  Does the f-bomb come out?

[we vs us]

quote:Originally posted by guido911

WEVSUS:

So sustained isolation, sleep deprivation, and nudity is torture? Okay. I guess we better stop using harsh language as well.

That article I quoted was an interesting read.  One of the things that Crawford concluded was that the cumulative effect of the things done to Qahtari constituted torture. By the end of his interrogation, he was physically injured and nearing heart failure, not to mention whatever mental instability there might have been. Did the nudity do that to him?  Or the sexual humiliation?  Or the stress positions or the verbal abuse?  Not in isolation, or as separate acts, no.  But as part of a sequence of similar acts, the effect was the same:  torture.  And consequentially, whatever evidence might have been gleaned from him, Crawford ruled, was inadmissable in any sort of legal proceeding.  

That's the other part that I would hope you'd see as a lawyer.  Coerced testimony gets thrown out of legal proceedings.  It doesn't help us prosecute the people who need to be prosecuted.  Gitmo undoubtedly houses not only the innocent but the guilty as well, but how do we prosecute the baddies when their testimony is corrupted by our methods of interrogation?

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by Hoss

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

quote:Originally posted by guido911

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

Who would Jesus torture, guido?

Just you.

That's mature.

At least it wasn't one of your previous retorts: "FU, you POS."

[}:)]

Yeah, I thought that real mature, coming from an attorney.

I wonder what happens when he's in a hole while making a case.  Does the f-bomb come out?

Are you a glutton or something? Go back to the JV forum--big people are talking here.

[Hoss]

quote:Originally posted by guido911

quote:Originally posted by Hoss

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

quote:Originally posted by guido911

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

Who would Jesus torture, guido?

Just you.

That's mature.

At least it wasn't one of your previous retorts: "FU, you POS."

[}:)]

Yeah, I thought that real mature, coming from an attorney.

I wonder what happens when he's in a hole while making a case.  Does the f-bomb come out?

Are you a glutton or something? Go back to the JV forum--big people are talking here.

As usual for Gweed; answer a question with an ad hominem.

[]