Another draft bill coming...

[cannon_fodder]

Shadows, your history is so amazingly wrong.  Please find a better source.

1) Revolutionary War

England's supply lines were no longer than they ever had been.  They had as many colonial soldiers as imports.  Their Navy ruled supreme.  Supply was not an issue.

And even if it was, all of their armies surrendered under fire.  To me, when your army surrenders, agrees to give up 13 colonies, lays down their arms, packs up, and leaves... it is a victory.

Please explain to me what terms would have been required for victory.  Must we killed every Britain?

2) 1812 the White House was burned along with most of Washington. The war started in large part to stop Britain from forcing US sailors into the royal navy - when the war was over the only thing that changed was that the British no longer forced service of American merchants.  After that accord was finished Jackson kicked as tail in New Orleans and we ended on a positive note.

We certainly got our butts handed to us in the beginning and it was a very strange fight to pick (we declared war on them with 20 ships, they had 1000), but at the end of the day we got what we wanted.

Per Jefferson:  he had 140 slaves.  While making him a large slave holder, he was certainly not near the nations largest "slave dealers."  He was a slave holder, a philanderer, and by some accounts a bad drunk.

And I have no idea how you got of the opinion that Jefferson had anything to do with Napoleon overthrowing the house of Bourbon.  He was the ambassador to France and negotiated a trade agreement with Prussia, but otherwise your ramblings make no sense at all.

3) Civil war was the most costly, but certainly we won that one (default).

4) The Spanish America war was a unfettered victory for the USA.   We destroyed their Atlantic and Pacific fleets and crushed their troops in Cuba and the Philippines.  The USA and gained the Philippines, Guam, Puerto Rico, Cuba as territories.  

This guy named Teddy Roosevelt was involved, war hero, help his career along... ever heard of him?

You can cast this war as a fight we picked just to kick a "super power" as they were on their way down, but casting it as a loss just doesn't work.

5) Mexican American War

Other than invading Mexico, taking their capital, capturing their president, and having Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Utah, Nevada and California seceded to the USA... it was a terrible loss.  We gained ~700,000 square miles of territory upon the total surrender of Mexico.  Another horrible defeat for the U.S.

6) The invasion of Canada was part of the War of 1812, which you discussed previously.  

7) WWI?

Pretty sure the treaty of Versailles stipulated the total surrender of the OTHER side in that one.

WWII?

Axis powers total surrender.

Japanese total surrender.

So Europe had WWII under control and we just came in and finished the job?  Please tell that to the 150,000 Americans killed in Europe.  All of Europe was already conquered but for Britain, and Britain was already relying on the USA for support.  But ok, have it your way.

But try to take away our victory over Japan and you're a fool.  Weren't our supply lines too long to be of any good?  We only beat Britain in the revolution because of their supply lines, surely the 7,000 mile lines in the Pacific were too far for us to do any good...

9) Korea?

First, "we" did not have a war in Korea.  We went in under the United Nations flag.

Second, our stated purpose was to preserve the internationally stipulated border at the 38th parallel.  North Korea/China/Soviet Unions goal was to overrun all forces and occupy the entire Korean peninsula.  Today, the country remains divided at the 38th parallel.  

Between the two sides, it has to be surmised that we won.  Please explain otherwise.  Again, unless you define "win" as only a total victory.  Which was never sought in this instance by the United Nations.

10) Vietnam.

Won almost every battle (including the fabled TET offensive), lost the war.  A great lesson in war being the extension of politics by other means.  As it turns out, killing them all was not a viable strategy.  Any high school kids who plays real time strategy games can tell you that waiting for the enemy to come to you and fight in your backyard (South Vietnam, as it were) is not a good idea.

I can't pretend to know the entire nuisances of the time, but can sit back with hindsight and shake my head at the battle plan.  

You're 1/10.  2/10 if we want to count 1812 as a loss (more accurately a stalemate) .

11) Iraq I

Stated goal:  Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait.
End Result: Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait.

Again, you can argue about what the goal SHOULD have been.  But we accomplished our stated goal and walked away.  Certainly a "W".

12) Iraq II

Stated Goal:  "Liberation" of Iraq from Saddam Hussein.
End Result: Saddam Hussein hanged to death.

The occupation was clearly very poorly devised.  But the invasion was a striking victory.
- - -

Also worth pointing out that you neglected the Cold War as well as a slew of smaller wars - which all ended in an American "win."  I'm not arguing they were just or justified.  Just countering your horribly inaccurate history (also note I addressed them in the order raised, not timeline order).

Also worth noting that we are not "running out of soldiers."  We actually exceeded the recruitment goals in 2008:
http://www.army.mil/-newsreleases/2008/10/10/13228-army-exceed-recruiting-goal-for-fiscal-year-2008/

It is open to debate if that was achieved by lowering the standards, but certainly a draft isn't going to cure that problem.

And finally:

quote:But with Russia having 50 nuclear warheads and programming to build 70 more such rockets, it may be time to build the cities underground.

Russia has about 700 ICMB's capable of carrying 4 warheads each.

They have more than 400 medium range nuclear missiles.

They have 14 nuclear missile submarines which can carry more than 600 nuclear warheads.

They have 80 nuclear bombers.



Final count I think you went 2/14 giving you the benefit of the doubt.   While I agree that 100 years of peace would be far superior to another 100 years of warfare, please don't make things up to support your contention.

[Hometown]

"Please make an argument that makes it better for the nation as a whole to send engineers, chemists, physicists and industrialists to war."

Okay.  

1) If you eliminate the notion of a shared burden you will dissolve the glue that holds our culture together and risk class warfare.

2) If the upper and educated classes are exempt from warfare whatever constraints ensure judicious use of our military will vanish and perpetual war will ensue.  (I think this may have already happened.)

You probably really believe you deserve the good fortune you have enjoyed.  It's just part of the natural order of things, right?

What did F. Scott Fitzgerald say, something like, "the rich are different from you and I."  For you we'll substitute, "the educated are different from you and I."

I hold out the prospect of karma and you say, "Come what may."

Well you and I both have read stories about successful attorneys ending up homeless and living on the street.  I certainly hope this doesn't happen and if it does I'll put you up in my basement until you get back on your feet.  But I may ask for some free legal work.

Lastly, I think inteller is on to something.

"I'll even soften the requirement a little bit. Instead of military service, give kids exiting high school an option of serving Peace Corp, Americorp, or military. Length of tours are staggered, shorter for military, longer for Americorp."

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown


1) If you eliminate the notion of a shared burden you will dissolve the glue that holds our culture together and risk class warfare.

2) If the upper and educated classes are exempt from warfare whatever constraints ensure judicious use of our military will vanish and perpetual war will ensue.  (I think this may have already happened.)

Has that dissolved yet?  Did during any of the periods I mentioned?  People that choose to serve CHOOSE to serve as it now stands.  They are not alienated by those that choose not to serve.  You are attempting to assign a social problem to a burden that you are advocating be placed on society.

And you failed to address the notion that many more people would have died if we had sent "the educated" off to die.  Literally, MILLIONS more Americans would have died in WWII.  We didn't win because we sent the most men with rifles off to die, we won because we had the best technology.  If we sent our scientists and engineers off to die that simply would not have been the case, the arsenal of democracy would have slowed, the atomic bomb would never have been developed.

Surely you see that?

quote:You probably really believe you deserve the good fortune you have enjoyed.  It's just part of the natural order of things, right?

I deserve the good fortune that comes from spending 4 years of high school studying so I could get into a good University.  I deserve the good fortune that can be generated from 5 years of college in a program which 1/3 fail or drop out. I deserve the good fortune I gained from 3 additional years of graduate school.

It is the natural order of things that your actions have consequences.  The consequence of studying hard and amassing $100,000+ of student debt while investing 8 years of your life in education is the prospect for better jobs and better potential income (8 years of lost potential income mind you).  The consequence of joining the military is the potential for a career, benefits, networking, life experience, payment, college money and a resume builder.  I deserve the "good fortune" that came from my chosen path as much as the good fortune anyone else deserves from their chosen path.

quote:
What did F. Scott Fitzgerald say, something like, "the rich are different from you and I."  For you we'll substitute, "the educated are different from you and I."

Neither path makes one better than the other.  It is merely a different road to take which most people hope leads to the same destination.  Doesn't make me better than anyone.  Rich, poor, educated, uneducated... it doesn't matter in the slightest.  But you're damn right I deserve whatever good fortune I have coming my way.

My perspective on the draft in no way is a judgment on an individuals worth.  I have been very clear on that and your emotional reaction has simply failed to comprehend the notion.  But hey, you're far more altruistic than I anyway:

quote:if I had been drafted my plan was to go to Canada.

You actually planned on ditching out so some other young man could go die in your place.  At least I have said I was willing to put up and shut up if it ever came to that.  So keep throwing those stones.

quote:
I hold out the prospect of karma and you say, "Come what may."

NO.  YOU HELD OUT THE PROSPECT OF DIVINE RETRIBUTION.  Those are two entirely different concepts.  IMHO the God who demanded David take 100 foreskins for a wife, or slaughtered the first born of Egypt because their Kind worshiped the wrong god (they did nothing wrong mind you), or massacred entire cities so his people could have more land wouldn't mind a little pragmatism.  Nor would he give a damn what I say - he tortured his most devout follower, killed his children, and took everything he had because the Devil goaded the Good Lord into doing so.  If he wants to smite me, I'm not going to stop him anyway.

So come what may.

quote:Well you and I both have read stories about successful attorneys ending up homeless and living on the street.  I certainly hope this doesn't happen and if it does I'll put you up in my basement until you get back on your feet.  But I may ask for some free legal work.

You are under the mistaken assumption that I am a successful attorney.  That notion in Tulsa is somewhat lacking, I have made far more money in my life from things other than working as an attorney.  I hope that changes, but being an attorney in Tulsa is far from a path to riches.

Nonetheless, I'll take you up on the offer should I ever need it.
- - -

I'll say this one more time... I am NOT arguing that any person's life is morally better than anyone elses.  I am not a better person than anyone else because of my educational level.  It doesn't matter at all.

HOWEVER, when you are required to place an economic or war time value on human life there are difference in the value.  Pretending otherwise is simply not realistic.  I understand your desire for an "all animals are equal" Utopian perspective, but reality dictates otherwise.

You want what you stated earlier... an end to wars.  Just as this Congressman is raising the prospect of a draft in an attempt to protest the war in general you are arguing for equality in a draft so that everyone suffers and wars will be less likely.  I understand your theory.  But it is a backdoor protest of war instead of a pragmatic war time decision.

It is also ignoring the fact that poor people have 1 vote, just like rich people.  And the great uneducated masses still comprise a majority of our nation.  You entire take is assuming that they are too stupid to figure out how to vote and can not take care of themselves.  Trust me, even if they aren't educated people are generally not stupid when it comes to self preservation.  You can trust them to figure it out.





And once more, I am NOT advocating a draft. I am NOT advocating what draft policy should be in place.   I am NOT deciding that one life is worth less than any other.  I am NOT saying that I am better than anyone else.  I am NOT saying that educational level makes anyone better, nor is an indication of intelligence.

I am merely explaining why the historic draft policy can be viewed as a pragmatic solution to selective military conscription.
- - -

Thanks for the spirited discussion.

[Hometown]

Cannon, Everything I do has an element of emotion in it.  It would be impossible for me to do anything without emotion.  That's part of being human.

If that's news to you I have another revelation for you.  

Sometimes you do everything right, and misfortune comes your way.  

You have discounted luck even though you have obviously enjoyed some luck.  God makes rain fall on good people and bad people.  In other words, misfortune is not always earned.  And good fortune is not always earned.  But you don't know that yet.

And I worked against the war so that no one would die.  I protested here in Tulsa.  I protested in Washington, D.C. during Moratorium, the largest antiwar protest.  I continue to be an advocate against war today.

I would say that your below the belt punch on that issue involved some lower form of emotion.

It would be hard for you younger guys to understand what my generation went through with Vietnam.  We stood up against authority and we paid a price for it.  You younger guys haven't had to stand up against much of anything, thanks in part to my generation's pioneering path.

[cannon_fodder]

There was no "lower form of emotion" involved in posting that quote. And I don't really see how it is a hit below the belt in that it is a comment you espouse that is perfectly on topic. On one hand you are advocating for a draft of all parties, on the other hand you say that you protested the draft and planned on leaving the country if you yourself were drafted.

I am not intending to belittle your position, I am merely pointing out that your stance seems divided on the issue.  Just as you propounded that God should curse me for my position, your plan to ditch out on the draft could be viewed exactly the same way.   Hence my sarcastic quip to keep throwing stones.

I respect your anti war stance.  I often disagree with it, but I understand the position.  However, I find great fault in a desire to initiate mandatory conscription as a way to help facilitate that position.  Furthermore, it seems your previous activities to subvert the draft serve to weaken you position in that regard to a large extent.

quote:It would be hard for you younger guys to understand what my generation went through with Vietnam. We stood up against authority and we paid a price for it. You younger guys haven't had to stand up against much of anything, thanks in part to my generation's pioneering path

I agree that it would be hard for me to understand exactly what that experience was like.  However, I am rather at odds with the statement that the Boomers have somehow done great things.  The hippies were a minority, the war protesters, were a minority, the drug culture a minority... and they lost out to the majority for better or worse.  We still have wars, the drug culture is more persecuted by Boomer now then it ever has been, and hippies remain an obscure minority.  You started down the path towards change - then ended up "pioneering a path" to being the highest consuming most debt ridden wasteful generation of people the world has ever seen (my generation still has a chance to beat you to it!).  What's funny, is your argument that MY generation had it easy because YOUR generation did all the hard work is essentially what "the Greatest Generation" thinks of the Boomers... and probably back ad naseum.

Not faulting YOU for it, but the Boomer generation has certainly been a mixed bag for the future of America... as all generations are.  I'm sure you have some image of me as a conservative goat sitting in a plush office with my feet on the backs of the poor hating hippies and plotting new wars.  While we differ on many things HT our views are more similar than you think on most topics.  I rather enjoy most of what the 1960's brought us - but the notion that my generation has a cake walk because of the 60's just doesn't sit right.

quote:You have discounted luck even though you have obviously enjoyed some luck. God makes rain fall on good people and bad people. In other words, misfortune is not always earned. And good fortune is not always earned. But you don't know that yet.

Please don't recite what I know or don't know.  I've worked damn hard, been rained on plenty, and had plenty of good luck along the way.  I'm well aware of my fortune, shortcomings, faults, trials, tribulations, and curses.  I've had a much easier road that many I'm sure, but there has been no silver ladder to the top (if you think I'm at or near the top my friend, you are sorely mistaken).

As Cicero said, fortune is blind.  All we can do is position ourselves as best as possible for the success we seek.  A string of good decisions may never be rewarded while a single bad decision is usually punished.  All we can do is continue to improve our chances and hope the Gods choose not to smite us for one more day.
- - - -

I've enjoyed the chat.  Hope you don't think I'm trying to attack you in any way.  Merely taking a different position than you are and advocating for it while showing the shortcomings of your position.  You'll have to come to a lunch someday or otherwise continue this discussion over a beer... I'm really not an donkey.  []

[Hometown]

Actually I kind of feel sorry for the attorneys in Tulsa.  You guys just don't make very much money compared to your counterparts elsewhere.  You said as much once.

Associates here start out at less money than I was making in the early 90s.  Of course, since I'm here I now work for something just short of free.

You guys work for the guys that work for the guys that have money.

Put aside anything Richard Nixon said about the silent majority.  The whole country moved to the left during the 70s.  Nixon signed Affirmative Action into law.  I mean imagine that.

The best and brightest were the on the left.  Even those that weren't lefties grew their hair long so that they look like they were.  The rightwingers were seen as kooks.  Reagan changed that perception.

Anyway, the war ended not long after the lottery was introduced and I can't help but believe it had something to do with upper class kids really having to serve.

Now, who knows what I would have done if I was called.  I thought I might go to Canada.  My buddies and I had set off for Canada a few years earlier but ended up on a commune in Colorado.  Who knows, I might have pulled the homosexual card out of my hat.  I had already attended meetings of a very early homosexual rights group in Dallas called the Circle of Friends.  

I'm not sure If I would have been brave enough to go to Canada.

[shadows]

CF:
We seem to have different history books.   Mine says that England uses their land in US as a prison camp until they were forced to move it to Australia when they pull out in 1789.   From the daily news it seems that many prisoners were left here in the with what became the 13 states  Mine says Germany in WW11 with the help of the man who put us in space was sending his design of the V11 rockets and buzz flying bombs into London from the shores of France when we stepped in with a fresh army and started the bombing the women and children of Germany to break their spirit.   We did the same for Japan.

Get a DNA report on Jefferson and his favorite son Tom.  There is a long report on his black descendents.  

We revise history to our liking. We are a warring nation acting under the guise of correcting all wrongs to our liking. From the beginning the story is retold.

By the way look up the family history of hero George and his tradings. England had banned slavery in 1824.