TCC's Parking Lot Wasteland

[TheArtist]

Jamison Square in the heart of Portland's Pearl District was Tulsa's TCC Parking Lot Wasteland 10-15 years ago.  Transit, in the form of a streetcar through the district connecting it to downtown and other urban 'hoods, as well as mixed-use zoning and new public parks like Jamison Square spurred the renaissance.  I think the Cathedral Square and Uptown areas have the same potential in Tulsa located near (in Uptown's case in between) established older, wealthier neighborhoods and also next to downtown with Cathedral square basically in downtown (inside the IDL).  Both have some already established residential and a mix of office and retail space, just need more residents and shops/restaurants to be really active areas. 

Be careful. Not all residential and shops/restaurants are equal. Some developments, simply because of the way they meet the street/sidewalk, and interact or dont with whats around them,,, can make a HUGE difference. The difference can be between an area thats alive, pedestrian friendly and bustling, or one thats dead. Zoning makes the difference. Whats our zoning for that area? The last new housing built near the area currently is the Renaissance  Uptown Apartments. A terrible, unfortunate disaster.

Whats the problem with this city and its inability to do anything about zoning in downtown? There seems to be a taboo about even mentioning it. Even when I mention it on here, nobody seems to act like they even read what I said. No comment on it one way or another. Its just the same ol story of wanting this or that, but from my perspective, no care to push or talk about what it would take to get it done right?

Good places dont happen by accident. Matter of fact, our current zoning actually acts against it!

From what I can tell with a quick look. That area and others near it in Portland have zoning that Tulsans could currently only dream of. From building massing, heights, concern for views, mixed use, pedestrian friendly, gateway buildings, etc. Will look more into it later when I have time. Here, from what I can tell, you can build to just about any height, have parking up front or fence off, or have a blank wall, etc. You could end up with one really tall building in the middle of a fenced off parking lot, or a Wal-Mart in the middle of a large parking lot. There is not much to guide that area into anything in particular, let alone what many of us could agree we would like it to be. We look at pictures of neat areas in other cities and wish we had them... then do nothing to make sure they happen. Odd really.   

[SXSW]

Hopefully through mass discussion we can get these ideas to be part of a new downtown zoning overlay, or develop a form-based code for specific areas like they are doing in the Pearl area (the Tulsa version).  I may take another trip to Portland soon and research the area and then I can better draft up a proposal.  From there I can submit to the city, and hope for the best.  I'd like to develop it myself but I'm not in the position to do that...at least not yet.

[mjchamplin]

Isn't this one of the things that PlanIt Tulsa is supposed to address? Making zoning recommendations? It seems like that's the biggest roadblock to healthy downtown development at the moment.

[carltonplace]

Personally I like the name Cathedral Square for the whole area.  Now if we can just get an actual 'Square' in front of Holy Family Cathedral that could be the focal point for the entire district.  I know that idea has been thrown around before.  All it would take from the city is the investment in a half block park between Boulder and Main in front of Holy Family along 8th Street, and then hopefully a master plan could be developed for building mixed-use residential buildings on the parking lots around it.  That would create a nice transition in between the churches/TCC and the CBD, and offer a place of recreation for future residents and school children at the church day schools.

Something like Jamison Square in Portland (which was a parking lot) with landscaping and a water feature would be cool framing one of the most beautiful cathedrals in the region (Holy Family):

I read somewhere that Land Legacy has the Cathedral Square idea on their wish list.

[sgrizzle]

I read somewhere that Land Legacy has the Cathedral Square idea on their wish list.

It's the #2 idea. East village is the current forerunner. LL tried to do a south downtown park several years ago and it flopped.

[carltonplace]

Too bad we can't have both. A Cathedral Square and TCC mix seems like a perfect opportunity for creating development in empty spaces.

[sgrizzle]

Too bad we can't have both. A Cathedral Square and TCC mix seems like a perfect opportunity for creating development in empty spaces.

Might get both eventually. It's a financial thing.

[TheArtist]

It's the #2 idea. East village is the current forerunner. LL tried to do a south downtown park several years ago and it flopped.

If the LL thing was what I think it was. We are very lucky it flopped. It was Hooooooooorible. In no way, no how even slightly good urban design.  Wasnt even good suburban design, was just bad period. And it didnt have a public square either. Was basically an apartment complex that took up most of the area.   

[sgrizzle]

If the LL thing was what I think it was. We are very lucky it flopped. It was Hooooooooorible. In no way, no how even slightly good urban design.  Wasnt even good suburban design, was just bad period. And it didnt have a public square either. Was basically an apartment complex that took up most of the area.   

This was a park, and I don't think it even made it to a real design stage. I'm a bit uneasy about Kaiser's design for the park north of Matthews Warehouse myself.

[SXSW]

This was a park, and I don't think it even made it to a real design stage. I'm a bit uneasy about Kaiser's design for the park north of Matthews Warehouse myself.

The John Hope Franklin Park, or another one? 

Three places I would like to see public parks/squares in downtown (1 being easiest to create, 3 being hardest) two of which are surface lots and one is a really ugly building next to our iconic arena:
1.  Cathedral Square, as mentioned above, on the half block in front of Holy Family between Boulder and Main.  Green space and a huge, ornate fountain would be cool.

2.  Blue Dome Square, or something like that, on the full block surface lot between Cincinnati and Detroit, 2nd and 3rd.  Build a new library fronting this park on 3rd, with the PAC to the west, and then office/residential on the north and east sides.  Great place for stages at Mayfest or other festivals in the Blue Dome area.

3.  Full block where the Page Belcher Federal Building sits once it is moved to a new location, whenever that may be, bounded by Frisco, 3rd, Denver, and 4th in front of the BOK.  The conv. center could be extended along 4th where old city hall is overlooking the park with a hotel attached where the library sits (assuming a new one is built elsewhere).

[sgrizzle]

The John Hope Franklin Park, or another one? 

Three places I would like to see public parks/squares in downtown (1 being easiest to create, 3 being hardest) two of which are surface lots and one is a really ugly building next to our iconic arena:
1.  Cathedral Square, as mentioned above, on the half block in front of Holy Family between Boulder and Main.  Green space and a huge, ornate fountain would be cool.

2.  Blue Dome Square, or something like that, on the full block surface lot between Cincinnati and Detroit, 2nd and 3rd.  Build a new library fronting this park on 3rd, with the PAC to the west, and then office/residential on the north and east sides.  Great place for stages at Mayfest or other festivals in the Blue Dome area.

3.  Full block where the Page Belcher Federal Building sits once it is moved to a new location, whenever that may be, bounded by Frisco, 3rd, Denver, and 4th in front of the BOK.  The conv. center could be extended along 4th where old city hall is overlooking the park with a hotel attached where the library sits (assuming a new one is built elsewhere).

1. Every concept I've seen or heard calls for some greenspace south, the location varies regularly.

2. I've heard this is considered a site for large residential. Greenspace would be included, but the primary focus would be residential. Think Dfest from your balcony. This is also pretty close to the current "giant park" plan which is 4th to 6th, Frankfort to Kenosha.

3. I've heard this discussed before but it is dependant on the Post Office closing. This space needs to be flat since it would be a key pedestrian intersection from the BOK Center, Convention Center, Hotel(s), Parking, etc.

[TheArtist]

  I do think its great that people seem to be understanding the need for lots of parks and plazas in an urban environment. Goes back to that family/kid friendly thing I harp on. Plus I am a big fan of the "Urban Village" concept. High density nodes that arent "too high density". Enough density to make an area walkable and have efficient mass transit, but also have space to breathe, open spaces, trees, water, etc. Balancing different "feels" and so your not claustrophobically (is that a word lol?) surrounded by buildings everywhere. Kind of the best of suburban and urban. 

But, parks can be designed poorly (Williams Green is a bad design) or well. I think they should be integrated and woven into the streets, sidewalks, and buildings around them.  Not isolated from those things. We can learn from the "best practices" that have worked for ages in old Europe. Which brings us back to a cathedral square type idea.  Shops/restaurants on the ground floor, a great view (the cathedral) mixed use, living above, water feature, etc. There are reasons why some places just naturally attract us and become the heart of an area. 

Those parking lots in front of the Cathedral by the college are an incredible opportunity, a blank canvas that could have something incredible put on it. Once something else goes there, its opportunity lost. Most cities in this part of the country would give their eye teeth for the kind of lucky scenario we have.   

[sgrizzle]

(Williams Green is a bad design)

That's why it will get redone in the not-so-far future.

That and the structural issues.