Obama=Bush

[guido911]

He is re-opening military tribunals, open to the idea that detainees can be held indefinately, and is continuing to rendition terrorists. What was the beef against Bush?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3877821

[Cats Cats Cats]

He is re-opening military tribunals, open to the idea that detainees can be held indefinately, and is continuing to rendition terrorists. What was the beef against Bush?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3877821

Oh boy, another Guido complaining about Obama doing something he agrees with thread.  Goody!

Might have something to do with the democrats pulling the funding to close Gitmo http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i1DBB8JA46mzegcVniqdGeQYASwQD97VMNM80

[Conan71]

Trog, it speaks to all the broken promises of "change" during the election.  Obama and many re-elected Democrats made closing Gitmo a campaign promise of importance to please the bed-wetting terrorist sympathisers.

Remember, Bush's foreign policy was all wrong.  Now it would appear reality is setting in, as expected.

[Cats Cats Cats]

Trog, it speaks to all the broken promises of "change" during the election.  Obama and many re-elected Democrats made closing Gitmo a campaign promise of importance to please the bed-wetting terrorist sympathisers.

Remember, Bush's foreign policy was all wrong.  Now it would appear reality is setting in, as expected.

Right now not everybody is going to be tried in tribunals (less than 20, which 21 had ongoing trials when Obama put a halt when he went into office), we will see how many of the 200+ will be tried that way.  2nd, closing Gitmo doesn't mean that military tribunals will go away.  Gitmo isn't the only place it could happen. 

Again, we will see what will happen to the other 180+.  He can't close it without moving the prisoners out or letting them go.  They rejected the funding request to relocate some prisoners to the US. 

As of right now we have 3 convictions in 8 years.  At that rate it would take 533 years to convict all of them.
Something tells me if he can bring that down to 10 years that might be change.

[Conan71]

Something tells me if he can bring that down to 10 years that might be change.

And if that had happened under a Republican, Dims would be saying that's still an outrage instead of "change".

[Cats Cats Cats]

And if that had happened under a Republican, Dims would be saying that's still an outrage instead of "change".

Probably true, but it didn't happen under Republicans (It hasn't happened yet at all).  I have a different aspect on things than most.  You would rather somebody keep to a position even when they are wrong and follow through with it (I would call those people dims).  I would rather the person get all the information and make a decision on what is right.  If everybody gets tried in a tribunal and everybody stays in Gitmo then I will be angry.  I am sure changes to the tribunal they are making such as, limiting hearsay (seems it should be either a yes or no question) and not admitting evidence that has been received through torture are just window dressing.

[guido911]

Oh boy, another Guido complaining about Obama doing something he agrees with thread.  Goody!

Might have something to do with the democrats pulling the funding to close Gitmo http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i1DBB8JA46mzegcVniqdGeQYASwQD97VMNM80

What the hell are you talking about? How is the fact that Obama is following Bush's so-called lawless government action somehow a smack at me? He got elected by bashing Bush and linking McCain to Bush. Now, he is following Bush's policies. Like usual, just change the subject when you're guy flip flops.

[Gaspar]

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

[Cats Cats Cats]

What the hell are you talking about? How is the fact that Obama is following Bush's so-called lawless government action somehow a smack at me? He got elected by bashing Bush and linking McCain to Bush. Now, he is following Bush's policies. Like usual, just change the subject when you're guy flip flops.

I was under the assumption that to be tried in U.S. Federal Court they would have to be moved to the United States.  I was only commenting on the military tribunals as your link only pertains to military tribunals, not indefinite imprisonment or rendition.  I see that this decision for military tribunals probably is irregardless of the status of Guantanamo Bay.  And I hardly think that saying that the Democratic Congress rejecting the Democratic President request for funds to move prisoners to the US to be tried in Federal court is trying to change the subject.  Maybe we will just add a Federal Court in Cuba.  That is where we will try all the people trying to smuggle Cigars and accused terrorists.

[guido911]

 Maybe we will just add a Federal Court in Cuba.  That is where we will try all the people trying to smuggle Cigars and accused terrorists.

That's in all honesty not a bad idea.

[USRufnex]

"Iraq is sort of a situation where you've got a guy who drove the bus into the ditch. You obviously have to get the bus out of the ditch, and that's not easy to do, although you probably should fire the driver."

Barack Obama

[mr.jaynes]

I was under the assumption that to be tried in U.S. Federal Court they would have to be moved to the United States.  I was only commenting on the military tribunals as your link only pertains to military tribunals, not indefinite imprisonment or rendition.  I see that this decision for military tribunals probably is irregardless of the status of Guantanamo Bay.  And I hardly think that saying that the Democratic Congress rejecting the Democratic President request for funds to move prisoners to the US to be tried in Federal court is trying to change the subject.  Maybe we will just add a Federal Court in Cuba.  That is where we will try all the people trying to smuggle Cigars and accused terrorists.

Speaking of which, how close are we to lifting that silly embargo with Cuba?

[USRufnex]

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

No.

But I guess it's no surprise that the Republican base and all you Obama deniers out there hate nuance..... maybe you should try reading this before resorting to old, tired, soundbite sized arguments....


"The world is beginning to doubt the moral basis of our fight against terrorism."
Colin Powell 2006

Senators defy Bush on tribunals 9/15/2006
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5347564.stm

The White House wants the new Guantanamo tribunals to maintain the right to use evidence obtained through coercion and to keep elements of prosecution cases secret from those accused.

But the senators argued that Mr Bush's proposals would effectively redefine the Geneva Conventions to allow harsh treatment of detainees held at the Guantanamo Bay camp in Cuba.

They said their own version would provide fair trials and meet the demands of the US Supreme Court, that struck down Mr Bush's original plan.

Four Republican senators joined opposition Democrats on the Armed Services Committee to approve their measure.

The rebels include three prominent senators, John McCain, John Warner and Lindsey Graham, who say Mr Bush's bill would do further damage to America's moral authority.

The senators are also worried about White House efforts to reinterpret Article Three of the Geneva Conventions in order to allow tougher interrogations of suspects.

That was then......... this is now.........

Obama to revive some terrorism tribunals
http://www.navytimes.com/news/2009/05/ap_guantanamo_tribunals_revival_051409/

The tribunal system — set up after the military began sweeping detainees off the battlefields of Afghanistan in late 2001 — has been under repeated challenges from human rights and legal organizations because it denied defendants many of the rights they would be granted in a civilian courtroom.

In a statement late Thursday, Sen. Lindsey Graham called Obama's decision to revamp and restart the tribunals a step toward strengthening U.S. detention policies that have been derided worldwide.

"I continue to believe it is in our own national security interests to separate ourselves from the past problems of Guantanamo," said Graham, who has been working with the administration on issues related to detainees. "I agree with the president and our military commanders that now is the time to start over and strengthen our detention policies. I applaud the president's actions today."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Critics of the Guantanamo commissions, including Obama as a senator in 2006, called them a violation of U.S. law because of the limits on detainees' legal rights. Pushed by President George W. Bush, Congress created the current tribunal system in 2006 after scrapping an earlier version that gave detainees additional rights.

Obama voted for the earlier version of the tribunals plan that also had the support of four moderate Republicans on the Senate Armed Services Committee. But he opposed the system that Congress ultimately approved, calling it "sloppy."

"We have rushed through a bill that stands a good chance of being challenged once again in the Supreme Court," Obama said in a Sept. 28, 2006, speech on the Senate floor. "This is not how a serious administration would approach the problem of terrorism."

Later, on the presidential campaign trail in February 2008, Obama described the Guantanamo trials as "a flawed military commission system that has failed to convict anyone of a terrorist act since the 9/11 attacks and that has been embroiled in legal challenges."


So, none of this is unexpected.... yes, Obama was a "community activist" but his experience also includes that of "a constitutional law professor" at Univ of Chicago.... so maybe these actions will result in MORE convictions.... actions I assume Republicans will support.  Bush's harder line on military tribunals had unintended consequences:  a handful of convictions. 

Flip-flop?  Suppose it could be taken that way if you are a liberal who hasn't been paying attention..... or a partisan hack who wants to re-gift his John Kerry Flip-flops...