A tale of two cities

[waterboy]

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20090529_16_A1_OKLAHO130954

To summarize, Sand Springs leaders are excited that the old Hissom facility may be dismantled with money from the state. The buildings apparently are in bad shape and are hindering income producing use of the property. They are excited because they see potential for "a first class Industrial Park"!!

Note:
     -This is land that fronts the Arkansas River at a point where the water is fresh out of the Keystone Dam and has beautiful vistas.
     -It is adjacent to a highway
     -It is faster to reach this area from downtown Tulsa than it is to reach Woodland Hills mall.
     -The land is flat to gently rolling.
     -Utilities and infrastructure are present (gas, electric, water, roadways)
     -50 MILLION DOLLARS HAS BEEN APPROPRIATED TO BUILD DAMS, ONE OF WHICH WILL BACK UP WATER TO NEAR THIS LOCATION MAKING IT LAKESIDE PROPERTY.

These are criteria that generally lead to cosmopolitan style development. Leaders in Jenks saw similar opportunities and conceived the River District, RiverWalk, Kings Crossing, the expansion of a gambling facility and planned housing along the river.

Sand Springs sees a first class industrial facility. Doesn't this seem odd to anyone else?

[godboko71]

Living near and doing business in Sand Springs for a long time now, and I have to say there leadership can really make you scratch your head. I would say it would be sad to see more industrial development in sand springs near the river.

[waterboy]

My experience indicates that there are lots of erudite, well educated residents who work in Tulsa but like the small town feel of Sand Springs. It is also quite convenient to travel into the downtown Tulsa area as well as the nearby lake. The topography is attractive and the home prices competitive. However, there seems to be this label as a blue collar town which is certainly bolstered by the huge presence of WalMart, K-Mart, Family Market, fast food etc. And there are plenty of local blue collar jobs there. This is also a community that is fighting mineral interests who want to excavate limestone close to developed neighborhoods within the city.

This would be a huge mistake by their leadership to ignore the potential for upgrading their image to match their reality. Remember, Jenks had a similar dissonant personality. It was considered a sleepy little antique store town that was a mere extension of the ORU area even though it had all the elements waiting for innovative development including wealth, youth and education. Don't take the first suitor for this property.

[carltonplace]

Maybe "industrial park" should be better defined. The Cherokee Industrial Park at 76th St N and Lakewood Ave has ONG, BAMA, WhirlPool, National, Verizon, SETA, Tulsa Police Acadamy etc and has made a large impact on neighboring  Owasso more than North Tulsa just by proximity. People that work in Cherokee drive to Owasso to shop or eat lunch. Over time many have moved from Tulsa to Owasso to be closer to work.

My guess is Sand Springs wants some of that action and it would most likely be a smart move.

[Conan71]

I look at it this way:

If you create retail and restaurant business, you can grow the tax base via sales tax while creating lower paying service level jobs which don't necessarily attract scores of new workers and consumers to the area.  Ostensibly, the sales tax earned is nothing more than cannibalizing from other geographic parts of the sales tax base assuming job levels and population levels remain relatively stable.  You might attract some tourism dollars from outside the area, but unless you've got a really compelling attraction other than shopping, eating, and drinking you wind up in competition with existing districts and future districts.

Create an industrial or office park with the latest amenities and you can attract more people to the area which ostensibly leads to more need for housing, dining, shopping, drinking, etc. and doesn't simply cannibalize from existing businesses.

This was one of my issues with the river tax package in '07.  I felt it was overly retail-heavy on the supposed tax windfall it was going to create.  I didn't see where it was going to directly attract higher paying jobs which would drive more permanent inhabitants to the area.  I totally understand a more "liveable" city is attractive, but I think it's highly speculative when people try to tell you that more shopping and dining and a few water activities are going to drive significant employers to an area.

Riverwalk Crossing has been a great addition to south Tulsa, but to this point, I don't believe a single major corporation has announced a relocation to Tulsa because of its existence. 

[waterboy]

Well, those replies make some sense. A light industrial/commercial would be preferable to most of what I've seen in SS, though their livability factor is deficient. They need something flashy and that would be a good place for it.

Conan, I think Tulsa pushes retail because thats where the funding comes for to run the city.

[Conan71]

Well, those replies make some sense. A light industrial/commercial would be preferable to most of what I've seen in SS, though their livability factor is deficient. They need something flashy and that would be a good place for it.

Conan, I think Tulsa pushes retail because thats where the funding comes for to run the city.

I agree SS could use somewhat of a make-over and I'd love to associate it mentally with more than manufacturers and other industrial plants, but I do admire their "horse before cart" mentality on this.  When I think of Sand Springs I still think of all the derelict old sheetmetal-walled plants which line Chas. Page between Hwy. 97 east toward Tulsa.  I'd love for them to do something to make it more of a "liveable" image.  But how many more retail and dining establishments can we support?  I don't need more places to eat.  I'm big enough as it is, don't you think?

[dbacks fan]

I have a question about the Rader Center. Is it still being used as a maximum security juvenile center? Also here is a linkhttp://www.flickr.com/photos/cjdaniel/sets/72157604898274429/ to some photos from some one else from inside the old Hissom Center, and it appears that parts of the movie "Return To Sender" were filmed there in '04.

And legislation to tear it down. http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=16&articleid=20090602_16_A8_OLHMIY758447

And the lease agreement between the state and Sand Springs http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=16&articleid=20090602_16_A8_OLHMIY758447

[waterboy]

Rader is still being used as a maximum juvenile detention center. I floated by there last week in a canoe and noted the razor wire on top of a 20ft fence. Scary looking. Don't pick up hitch hikers in that area.

As far as Hissom, my family visited a couple of residents there back in the early eighties just before the lawsuit. It didn't seem so bad but I'm sure we didn't get to see the insiders tour. The residents seemed happy though I believe the group home setting is a much better life.

Really, it doesn't look in as bad a shape as I thought it would. The water vessel is cool.

[Goodpasture]

Sand Springs has way too much "ambiance" and attractive areas for industrial development to be attractive. From the hills north to the hills south or along the river on both sides, there is none of the flat boring easy to develop factory friendly industrial type property available. What would be good at Hissom would be a combination of commercial and service businesses. I can't imagine a better place for a corporate campus than along the Arkansas there at Hissom.

[SXSW]

I was driving through Sand Springs this past weekend and forgot just how hilly and scenic the northern part of the city really is.  There are some new homes up there around the Canyons golf course with AMAZING views of downtown and the river, some of the best in the city IMO.  I am surprised this area is not more built up with its natural beauty and proximity to downtown.  Is it that the SS school system isn't as good as Jenks, Owasso, etc.?  Or just that SS is stereotyped as being a blue collar industrial city even though that part of SS is confined to the river south of Hwy. 64/412.  I wonder if we will ever see NW Tulsa develop with new homes along and north of Edison between Gilcrease Hills Rd. and Sand Springs? 

[Hoss]

I was driving through Sand Springs this past weekend and forgot just how hilly and scenic the northern part of the city really is.  There are some new homes up there around the Canyons golf course with AMAZING views of downtown and the river, some of the best in the city IMO.  I am surprised this area is not more built up with its natural beauty and proximity to downtown.  Is it that the SS school system isn't as good as Jenks, Owasso, etc.?  Or just that SS is stereotyped as being a blue collar industrial city even though that part of SS is confined to the river south of Hwy. 64/412.  I wonder if we will ever see NW Tulsa develop with new homes along and north of Edison between Gilcrease Hills Rd. and Sand Springs? 

Isn't that because the Osage Indians still own the land?  I know the entire county is marked as a reservation and has been for years.

[SXSW]

Isn't that because the Osage Indians still own the land?  I know the entire county is marked as a reservation and has been for years.

It hasn't stopped people from building beautiful million dollar houses at Lake Skiatook.  The Osage Indians control the land but is it really any different than owning land in the Creek Nation, Cherokee Nation, etc.?  I would bet property taxes would be lower in Osage County than they are in Tulsa County..

[Hoss]

It hasn't stopped people from building beautiful million dollar houses at Lake Skiatook.  The Osage Indians control the land but is it really any different than owning land in the Creek Nation, Cherokee Nation, etc.?  I would bet property taxes would be lower in Osage County than they are in Tulsa County..

I know they are for a fact; I have a grandmother that lives by the Tulsa Country Club on the north side of Edison just off Union.

[SXSW]

I know they are for a fact; I have a grandmother that lives by the Tulsa Country Club on the north side of Edison just off Union.

In that case is it just the schools, or the stigma of north Tulsa even though the area around Tulsa CC is relatively low crime?  The proximity to downtown alone makes the area very desirable plus lower property taxes and closer access to Lake Keystone and Lake Skiatook.  I do think the Gilcrease Expressway will aid in developing this area but that's many years away from being finished.