Rep. Rangel will seek to reinstitute the draft.

[Steve]

I say reinstitute the draft; that may be the quickest way to end U.S. involvement in this Iraq war travesty.  I can just see the massive street marches and protests now.  Shades of 1968-72.  The only other hope is that the new Congress will cut off funding and end this debacle like they did with Vietnam.

Our all-voluntary armed forces are mostly made up of people from the middle and lower economic classes, a simple fact.  When the children of the rich and the corporate elite in this country have an equal chance of being sent to be killed in places like Iraq, then our executive branch of government may think twice about invading other sovereign countries.

[Conan71]

He voted "no" and encouraged his fellow Democrats to vote "no" as well on the proposed bill prior to the 2004 election.

http://www.hillnews.com/news/100604/rangel.aspx

Also worth noting is his idea of conscription would include either two years of military service or two years of "national service".  I think it's a pretty open-ended deal.  It still would allow for those of priveledge to duck out of military service and choose "national service".

My view is it sounds like another government MWP that will cost taxpayers a ton of money by requiring every 18 to 42 year-old to serve two years on the government payroll.  I don't think it's going anywhere though.  Pelosi has already said she doesn't support it and both Sens Clinton and Schumer have said it wouldn't garner 10 votes in the Senate.

[papaspot]

quote:Originally posted by PRH

I'm guessing Rangel has proposed this bill to draft into the war the sons of the "upper classes", who are mostly the children of Republican families.

When sons of wealthy men are risking death, the popularity of the war may wane with our flag-waving Republican friends.

It's true in theory that a draft would be more equitable as far as having a realistic distribution across socio-economic levels. But you don't have to look any farther than our current Commander-in-Chief to realize that wealthy people will always be able to get around serving.

[Cubs]

quote: I'm guessing Rangel has proposed this bill to draft into the war the sons of the "upper classes", who are mostly the children of Republican families.
When sons of wealthy men are risking death, the popularity of the war may wane with our flag-waving Republican friends.

You do realize that the army is about 70% Repulbican dont you? If there was a draft, there would be a lower percentage number of Republicans in the army.

[rwarn17588]

They may be 70 percent Republican, but the percentage is smaller for those supporting Bush.

I've run into a lot of former and current servicemen and -women who are really disgusted with the way their commander-in-chief is doing his job in Iraq and in general.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by PRH

I'm guessing Rangel has proposed this bill to draft into the war the sons of the "upper classes", who are mostly the children of Republican families.

When sons of wealthy men are risking death, the popularity of the war may wane with our flag-waving Republican friends.

There are quite a few wealthy Democrats in this country as well, many of them in the Senate and HOR.

[papaspot]

quote:Originally posted by Cubs


You do realize that the army is about 70% Repulbican dont you? If there was a draft, there would be a lower percentage number of Republicans in the army.

I call bullsh*t! Let's see your source. Maybe it was just a stupid but honest mistake on your part. Maybe you meant to say that 70% of the Army voted for Bush in 2004. I can understand that, to someone of your mentality, that means that they HAD to be Republicans. After all, in your world, no Republican would ever vote for anyone but a Republican. Not all Republicans are brain dead. Some actually do their OWN thinking.

The military always tends to vote Republican for two reasons. One is that Republican presidents tend to push better pay raises for the military. The other is that Republican candidates usually wrap themselves in the flag. That doesn't mean they're more patriotic, it just means they make a bigger show of it.

[papaspot]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

They may be 70 percent Republican, but the percentage is smaller for those supporting Bush.

I've run into a lot of former and current servicemen and -women who are really disgusted with the way their commander-in-chief is doing his job in Iraq and in general.

I haven't seen a recent poll but I understand that Bush's support from members of the military has dropped dramatically in the last couple of years.

[inteller]

I have a GREAT idea.  Go scoop up all the illegal scum and tell them "you want to be part of our wonderful country?  Then you are going to serve for a few years and THEN we will make you citizens"  That would solve the problem of needing a draft, as thousands of willing volunteers stream across our border everyday.  We just go get them and load them up in a truck like they are so used to doing at home depot anyways and take them right down to boot camp.

[Route66Kid]

quote:Originally posted by papaspot

quote:Originally posted by Cubs


You do realize that the army is about 70% Repulbican dont you? If there was a draft, there would be a lower percentage number of Republicans in the army.

I call bullsh*t! Let's see your source. Maybe it was just a stupid but honest mistake on your part. Maybe you meant to say that 70% of the Army voted for Bush in 2004. I can understand that, to someone of your mentality, that means that they HAD to be Republicans. After all, in your world, no Republican would ever vote for anyone but a Republican. Not all Republicans are brain dead. Some actually do their OWN thinking.

The military always tends to vote Republican for two reasons. One is that Republican presidents tend to push better pay raises for the military. The other is that Republican candidates usually wrap themselves in the flag. That doesn't mean they're more patriotic, it just means they make a bigger show of it.

Most of the people I served with in the Navy did not seem the least bit interested in politics most of the time.  I will say that at election time most voted Republican and 70% or greater is a reasonable estimate of the number who did.  Speaking just for myself, I was a registered Independent my entire military career, enlisted and commissioned.  Even still I voted for GOP candidates most of the time.  I voted for Reagan twice, Bush 41 once, and for Bob Dole.  Your last paragraph is very true.

It took the incompetent leadership of George W. Bush and that of his PNAC ideologs to knock me off the fence in '04 and change my voter registration from Independent to Democratic.  As critical as I was in private of the leadership of Bill Clinton the last six years I was on active duty, he at least had the presence of mind to abide by the counsel of his advisors and govern from the middle, doing what was ultimately in the nation's best interest and not his own or that of his donors.  

I don't think Bush 43 got 70% of the military vote in '04.

[RecycleMichael]

Draft beer, not children.

[Route66Kid]

quote:Originally posted by inteller

I have a GREAT idea.  Go scoop up all the illegal scum and tell them "you want to be part of our wonderful country?  Then you are going to serve for a few years and THEN we will make you citizens"  That would solve the problem of needing a draft, as thousands of willing volunteers stream across our border everyday.  We just go get them and load them up in a truck like they are so used to doing at home depot anyways and take them right down to boot camp.

A lot more of this goes on than what you might think, and excuse me but I'd advise you against using the term "scum" to describe these young men and women who have volunteered to serve this nation.  There are many fine foreign-born non-US citizens who have affirmed an oath to "SUPPORT THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AND DEFEND IT AGAINST ALL ENEMIES BOTH FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC."

If I had not served in the United States Navy there were times I could swear it could have been the United States Maritime Foreign Legion.  I have personally served with sailors and marines and even a few officers who were from places like:

Republic of the Phillipines (several)
Canada (several)
Mexico (several)
Puerto Rico (several)
Australia
New Zealand
Dominican Republic
Jamaica
Haiti
Belize
Costa Rica
Panama
Nicaragua
Cuba
Peru
Argentina
Great Britain
Ireland
France
Germany
Greece
Israel
Iran
Vietnam
Sri Lanka
India
Guam
Palau/Micronesia
China
Korea
Japan
South Africa
Zaire/Congo

As you can see, much of the world is represented in the branch in which I served.  

And DoD does help those non-citizens who serve become naturalized US citizens:

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jan2003/n01162003_200301163.html

DoD Helps Noncitizen Service Members Become Full-Fledged Americans
By Sgt. 1st Class Doug Sample, USA
American Forces Press Service

WASHINGTON, Jan. 16, 2003 -- In a special ceremony on the deck of the aircraft carrier USS Constellation last August, 170 soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines swore an oath of allegiance to the United States. The same month in Kandahar, Afghanistan, four dozen more service members did the same. All became American citizens.

Those are scenes that have been repeated throughout the services in the past year. Hundreds of non-U.S. citizen service personnel have taken advantage of Executive Order 329 and are becoming full-fledged Americans.

Signed by President Bush last July, the order expedites the citizenship process for those serving in the war on terrorism. Since then, the Defense Department has been following up on that executive order by assisting noncitizen members with everything from filing Immigration and Naturalization Service forms to following up on their applications. Bush's order affects an estimated 18,000 men and women in uniform, officials said.

Prior to the executive order, applicants had to have three years of qualifying military service. This was also a special exception -- civilian applicants have to wait five years.

According to Brad Loo, DoD deputy director, Office of Officer and Enlisted Personnel Management, a service member now needs only one day of honorable active-duty federal service on or since Sept. 11, 2001, to qualify for citizenship under the military-facilitated program.

To apply, noncitizen service members must file INS Form N-426, which verifies dates of military and honorable service; and INS Form G-325B, which requires biographical information, fingerprinting and a photograph.

Loo said that under a 2000 DoD-INS memorandum of understanding, the two agencies work together to assist noncitizen military members with their citizenship process.

That's good news, Navy personnel clerk Petty Officer 2nd Class Carlos Granthon will attest. A native of Peru, he became a naturalized U.S. citizen five years ago. The process was long, tedious work, he said, and he had to do it alone because no one aboard his ship knew how.

"The wait was the hard part, not knowing if they (INS) received your information at all, waiting for an answer, not knowing who or where to call. There was no communication," Granthon said. "If there is a better system, then this is good."

Loo feels that recent changes in the way the DoD and INS handle noncitizenship applications will be good for service members. DoD now provides the "necessary interface" between the services and the immigration service, he noted.

"Each service has established assistance centers and offices that have trained personnel assigned to help qualified service members with the citizenship application process," he said. "This will not only ensure a quality control check is done on the application, but also, it ensures the application gets sent to the INS facility designated to process military applications."

The INS has established a central office in Lincoln, Neb., to process military members' applications and dedicated a point of contact to discuss issues regarding specific applications with a single representative from each of the services.

Chris Rydelek, head of the legal assistance branch at Marine Corps Headquarters here, calls the assistance "extremely successful." The DoD-INS partnership has cut application processing time from two years down to about six months, he estimated.

"I would say this represents a substantial improvement, a fresh approach," Rydelek said. "In the past it was a disjointed process at best." He said applications were often incomplete and were sent back and forth between various government offices.

"Now DoD provides the oversight to ensure the INS gets a complete application along with all the proper documentation needed and all of this information is sent to a central location," he said.

Loo said the president's action and Defense Department's initiative not only serve noncitizen service members, but also recognize their contributions to the military and the nation.

"Noncitizen soldiers, especially during a time of conflict or war, have demonstrated a willingness to defend this country, with their lives if need be," Loo explained. "Congress by law and the president by his executive order have recognized that these people have earned a special consideration of their requests for citizenship."

He also noted that service members who fail to renew their permanent resident alien card, or who lose permanent resident status for some reason, will not be punished under INS rules. "The president's executive order forgives this error," Loo said.

He said DoD benefits from noncitizen service members because many speak a native language other than English and constitute a source of linguists who will not require extensive language training.

"The sooner they become citizens, the sooner the military can use these linguists, particularly in specialties requiring a security clearance, if they are otherwise qualified for a clearance, " he said.

The Defense Department has no formal measure of the program's success, but the number of applications has increased, and this is a clear indication that the word has gotten out," Loo said.

He said the services have Web sites that detail the citizenship application process. For more information and guidance, visit the following sites:


Army: secure, https://www.perscomonline.army.mil/tagd; click "C" in the search index for "Citizenship."

Navy/Marine Corps: http://www.jag.navy.mil/html/OJAGLegal%20AssistHome.htm; click "Immigration" button at the top of the screen for table of contents.

Air Force: http://www.afpc.randolph.af.mil/mpf; click "Immigration and Naturalization Service" in main window.













 

[si_uk_lon_ok]

quote:Originally posted by Route66Kid

quote:Originally posted by inteller

I have a GREAT idea.  Go scoop up all the illegal scum and tell them "you want to be part of our wonderful country?  Then you are going to serve for a few years and THEN we will make you citizens"  That would solve the problem of needing a draft, as thousands of willing volunteers stream across our border everyday.  We just go get them and load them up in a truck like they are so used to doing at home depot anyways and take them right down to boot camp.

A lot more of this goes on than what you might think, and excuse me but I'd advise you against using the term "scum" to describe these young men and women who have volunteered to serve this nation.  There are many fine foreign-born non-US citizens who have affirmed an oath to "SUPPORT THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AND DEFEND IT AGAINST ALL ENEMIES BOTH FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC."

In all fairness Inteller is not calling the fighting men and women in the US army/ navy of any citizenship scum. He is calling illegal immigrants scum.

I'll disagree with the assertion that illegal immigrants are scum, but it is untrue that he said anyone else is.

[tim huntzinger]

There is a tradition of using ethnic groups as seperate fighting units with specific MOS'.  Seems like it would be an easy deal to create some fighting force for deployment composed of undocumented migrants as a path to citizenship.

Saaaaaayyyyy, did not Rangel vote against his own bill to reinstate the draft?

[RecycleMichael]

That was back in 2003 when he tried this trick before.

The 2006 version of Rangel's bill is not going anywhere. Speaker Pelosi won't allow him the chance to debate this in January 2007.  He will also be Chair of the House Ways and Means committee and he will have his hands full.

He doesn't really want to pass the draft. He just wants to debate the draft. The recruiting now takes place mostly in poor neighborhoods and rural areas and he wants America to debate what we are doing.

The republicans have been framing the issues for a long time and now the democrats have a chance to discuss things on their terms.

Whether it is the war, health care, crime or any other big issue, how we talk about it is going to be changing.